ZPR#710 – Porn, Consent, and Sexual Assault Full Episode Transcript – DOWNLOAD
Cathy: Well, so I kind of wanna go to pop culture a little bit and I’ll ask you this. Mike, do you feel like you can speak to sexual trauma pretty well? Not from maybe personal experience, but because of your expertise in who you talk to, if I asked you a few questions about sexual
Mike: trauma.
Mike: So I, the area of sexual trauma that I typically work in is helping use language to help survivors feel safe coming forward. Okay. Not particularly in therapy or in counseling of sexual trauma, cuz that’s not my area of expertise. Right. And I never wanna cross a line that I don’t belong in. Cause I don’t wanna do harm to survivors.
Cathy: Yeah. Okay, great. So that, then when I ask these questions, you just, you answer the piece of it you want to. Sure. I feel similarly. I don’t, I definitely work with. I work with women, so I’m always working with people struggling with that. That tends to be in majority’s history. But I I wanna talk about something that’s in pop culture right now as far as the E.J. Carroll trial that’s going on.
Cathy: Okay. So the thing that is and that is Trump is being sued for allegedly committing there, there was a rape. Okay. So, What,
Mike: what’s happened to pause. Yes, please. The case is actually a defamation.
Cathy: Def. Right? Because it’s not a criminal
Mike: trial. It’s a defamation of what he said about her saying she was raped.
Mike: Okay. Because? Because to demean her and to disvalue her saying she was raped. And so the case is actually a defamation case.
Cathy: That’s okay. See, thank you. Just that alone, because I’ve been talking about this trial and I knew it wasn’t a criminal trial, right? It was a civil trial, but I thought there was money I thought.
Cathy: Thank you. That’s all I’ll say. I won’t go. So, okay, so it’s a defamation trial. Now what’s happening though on the stand is there are lawyers, Trump’s lawyers who are asking questions of this woman who, you know, has this, I don’t want this alleged experience with assault. And is asking her things that are very I saw the quote that said, these are still questions we were asking in 1993.
Mike: So New York times put out the last six, like six famous cases since 1993. I re-shared it on Instagram yesterday. And that was one of the quotes from that trial, along with five other trials or so.
Cathy: Why didn’t you scream? So can you talk to me about that? Like I understand why Yep, why women don’t scream, but can you speak to that?
Cathy: Yeah.
Mike: So most people when they think of being in a scared, frightened situation, they were raised thinking you either fight. Or you flight. That’s what they think. But the reality is there’s three things a human body does, which is fight, flight, or freeze. And the very first thing our biology is built to do is to freeze.
Mike: And here’s why. When we were created as these beings that we are now today, there were dinosaurs. And we were not going to outrun them, and we definitely weren’t gonna out fight them. So you played dead? So they didn’t want to eat you. By the way, if you question this, go to a national park where we have brown bears or grizzlies and there will literally be signs.
Mike: I’ve been seen this in Alaska. Blew my mind when I saw it. It says, if a black bear make noise or run away, if a brown bear act dead until it starts to attack you. Geez, because it is most likely not gonna want to eat a dead animal. That’s a real sign, which means this tells you something about our biology.
Mike: That this is a reminder. So to freeze is the most common human neurological reaction to a threat. And so to not scream would be normal because the body sh goes into shock and therefore freezes. It doesn’t fight or flight. And so it freezes most naturally. And the easiest way to prove this to everybody listening right now, somebody of authority is in the room with you.
Mike: Somebody who has a lot of power over you, could be your boss, could be your parents, whoever it is says something that makes you uncomfortable. Do most people stop and go I wanna object to that? No, they do not. What do they do? They shut up. Yeah. They freeze, they go quiet. They don’t flight. They don’t because they think I’m just gonna shut up.
Mike: This is the safest thing to do. Yeah. Right. And they’re not even doing it intentionally. It’s subconsciously happening. Yeah. And so it is very common to say the safest thing to do is to freeze right now because that’s just what we’re wired to do. Now there are people who are trained. To fight.
Mike: And to fight. And so they’re more likely to do that. That’s a different n that’s not natural cuz they’re trained to do that. Interesting. And there are some people wired to do that, to be fair. Right. There are some.
Cathy: Sure. Well, and I will say that what I would say or what, the women I work with would say is you almost don’t know what’s happening when it’s happening.
Cathy: Your brain is not caught up to what’s really occurring. So part of sometimes there’s laughing. Sometimes there’s like a, oh, there’s like a, you’re so disconnected. Yeah, you literally disassociate because you are not caught up. And then the, you know, the other one we always talk about Mike, is once it’s over, or it could be in the time, but it’s usually later, is the fawning piece where you may, this person who assaulted you, harmed you.
Cathy: You may end up texting with them or checking on them because you’re still trying to reconcile what happened. And I feel like that’s a piece that people don’t understand about sexual trauma or assault is sometimes you’re trying to make it better. Sometimes you’re like, did that really happen? And that’s a, do you find that too?
Mike: So when you, when you work with survivors of all ages it is very common that when they first tell someone, they’ll say, I think I might have been raped. Right. And the reason that, that word is way more common than I was raped. To say I was raped is scary to acknowledgement of what actually happened to me.
Mike: If I say I was think I was raped, there’s a safer place. Maybe someone’s gonna show me I wasn’t. And so this wasn’t as bad as I thought, cuz I don’t wanna believe it was as bad as I’m feeling or the trauma. And so it’s a safer place to come forward and it’s very common for survivors to come forward that way.
Mike: And we actually tell people, your friend might say to you, I think that might have happened. Don’t start to question, what do you mean? Start to say thank you for sharing. Yeah. Let ’em know this safe space. Cuz right now they’re trying to see is this a safe space potentially with that wording. And so it would not be uncommon to try to the mind to think, wow, this is serious trauma.
Mike: Let’s make this not feel serious trauma. And you don’t even know what’s happening and the brain is going, let’s reach out. Right. This couldn’t have been. And so you reach out and you try to. Your brain is trying to think, this didn’t happen to me. The brain doesn’t want to acknowledge the trauma.
Mike: That’s scary stuff. That’s hard work. That’s, and you didn’t cause it either. This other person caused it. So all of this is happening. That adds a shame in the guilt cuz you didn’t cause it, but you think, well, did I do something that, oh, now I did text, they’re gonna use that against me. Right. And all of this, that doesn’t change the fact that they committed a horrific crime.
Mike: What you did after doesn’t change the crime that occurred.
Cathy: Right. Whereas in the court system, depending on who the judge is, depending on who the lawyers are, depending on who is hearing it. People still think those are reasons why it’s not, and I’m putting this in air quotes. True. Yeah. Because you didn’t scream because you did text this person and the Harvey Weinstein that lots of people accepted jobs from him afterwards, or they called him or came to his hotel room again, it didn’t mean the thing didn’t happen.
Cathy: It mean there was a fawning thing going on of like, my whole life could be ruined. That’s right. If this is the truth.
Todd: What was the name of the Netflix thing? I think I emailed you right afterwards cuz I thought it was so good. I don’t know if you liked it or not. It was the Tony Collette thing. Oh, it was a miniseries
Cathy: on Netflix.
Cathy: Un.. Not Unbreakable. What was it called? It was, I know exactly what you’re talking, Unbroken. No, that’s a, that was, it’s a
Todd: miniseries and this,
Cathy: we did it actually Pop Culturing on it.
Todd: The series opens with,
Cathy: It’s Merritt Wever, Tony Collette, and Caitlin, what’s her
Mike: name? It’s the Real Cases. Yeah. Well, is that the one I’m gonna, there’s a many that did almost a real case outta Colorado.
Mike: It, but three different women were involved. Is that the one we’re talking about? I think so.
Todd: It’s called Unbelievable. Unbelievable.
Mike: That’s, it’s that’s it. Yeah. And so none of this has changed in my career. I’ve been doing this for 30 years. Everything we’re bringing up, just like the New York Times brought up. Yeah.
Mike: Has been said forever. The difference now is that people are more appalled by it. Which is a positive growth sign. Yeah. Because 20 years ago it was, well, those are legit questions and now people hear that. They go, they asked what on the courtroom they did what? Unless they love the person being charged.
Mike: Right. And then they’re all in on those
Cathy: questions. I just read Chanel Miller’s book, Know my name, you know, the woman who was raped by the Stanford swimmer. That story. Yeah. And just how like her, it was so beautifully written, but about her watching his family and how they couldn’t hear. Like they couldn’t hear anything that, that he had possibly done and that af it, it just was understandable.
Cathy: Like I, I do get that as a parent, but there’s also this piece of, like you said, you know, like where in every other scenario you would at least be open to hearing what went wrong when, but when it’s your family member, your friend, or whatever it may be, you say things like, well, that I’ve never seen that side of this person.
Cathy: Yeah.
Mike: Yeah. And how would you. Yeah. Right. I mean, that, that’s the wild part. Now someone will go, well, I’ve been a sexual partner them, and I didn’t see that. Yes, because you were willing, right. Or they’ll go, well, they didn’t do it to me when I said no. All right, well, something about your situation. They didn’t act in that moment, but that is how this can work.
Mike: People don’t always act the exact same way. So a predator can choose, well, I’m gonna respect this answer, but here I see a window and I’m gonna be, I’m gonna act this way. That’s right. And. Doesn’t make it less serious because they didn’t do it to you. That’s such a weird concept that people could do, but it’s also a human reaction because to think that I chose to have sex with somebody who rapes people.
Mike: So there’s also a self defense mechanism to say well, they didn’t do it to me so they couldn’t do it to anybody else because you don’t want to think, you chose to have sex with somebody who does. It
Cathy: makes us question our own identity and we don’t wanna go there. Right. Our own judgment, our own what?
Cathy: How that will reflect on me. Correct.
Todd: Do you have any idea what the data is out of? A a hundred rapes. How many of them are the scary guy in the alley that does not know its
Todd: person?
Mike: All right. So the, numbers over the years are pretty consistent the with the research on this and that is that 85% of the time in some way, you know your attacker.
Mike: Yeah. So 85 to 90 they’ll say In some way, you know, your attacker. So it’s called acquaint. They used to use the word acquaintance rape. But people get confused by that. And so thankfully we removed words like acquaintance and date rape, cuz it sort of categorizes people’s rapes, which isn’t healthy actually.
Mike: And so, yeah, it’s 10, 15% at most. Yeah. Where
Cathy: it’s the stranger. So what, how do we, and again, I appreciate the non categor categorization, but then how, what do we say about that 85%? We just say rape. We
Mike: just say rape. Okay. Because I don’t need to know the details. Oh, wow. Got it. That’s the difference.
Mike: That is, if I categorize it, I judge it.
Todd: But the reason I just asked that question is because I think still people have this idea is if I give my child mace while she’s walking down the Greek path at night at school. That that’s what we, I think I judge that we invest a lot of our resources in protecting the scary guy that’s gonna jump out in front, out of the bushes.
Todd: And we spend much, not nearly as much energy on equipping our children how to protect themselves with people they
Todd: know.
Mike: A hundred percent true. Yeah. So look, I’m doing this work because of the rare percentage case. Yeah. That’s the case that hit my family. Oh wow. Interesting. But what happened is when it hit my family in that way, and the attacker was the stranger, was the I looked in the mirror.
Mike: At what consent was in my life at that time, and it made me look in the mirror. So that’s what drove me down the road of having this conversation around relationships and intimacy. But I are the case that what happened to my sister was the stranger attack. It was the smaller percentage.
Mike: And there is tons of self-defense courses and all of this that is out there and there’s very little on how to treat a partner with respect and sexual decision making. Yeah. There is, let’s teach you the definition of consent. Well, that doesn’t mean I understand how to actually live it. Yeah.
Mike: That means knowing the definition and knowing how to live it are completely different concepts. So almost every kid in a high school today, and even in middle schools, sh I know I’m supposed to ask. Well, does anybody? Nope. So they know the definition, but
Todd: they don’t know how to live it. How do we go from concept to practice?
Mike: Yeah. And that’s what’s starting to change what we have so far to go. First of all, schools have to be willing to have the conversation. We still can’t get in. You’d be amazed how many schools will not allow these conversations in. Yeah. It’s mind boggling. Like literally a crisis center will bring me in and say, we’re gonna fund this for Mike and come to the school, and the school will go, yeah.
Mike: We appreciate you bringing that, but we’re not, that can’t happen in our school. Well wait a second. What part of teaching people to ask and respect the answer. That’s the key there. We’re not just running around. Teach ’em to ask, respect the answer, stop sexual assaults at parties where they’re happening a ton in high schools, colleges, and middle schools, and then support survivors of sexual violence.
Mike: [00:13:20] What part of this is political controversial? Well, the whole idea. If we’re talk about it, then some might have it.
Cathy: That’s what I was gonna say is that I’m, I do the basic sex education, so I come into schools and do the, here’s the biology, here’s the mechanics. And obviously, you know, I try and get into the emotions of it too.
Cathy: Right? Like, I’m not trying to leave it there. But sometimes historically I have been forced to. Yeah. Yeah. Because I’m being told by the school, you cannot cross this line. If this question is asked, we would like you to veer this way, which, you know, we are Creative individuals in how we speak. So I’m never going to be like, I can’t answer that question.
Cathy: I just try and do it in a way that I feel like is honoring what the school is asking of me, but also honoring this human being that finally has someone in front of ’em that’s gonna answer something that’s really important to their lives. So the reason I’m bringing this up is I am sometimes not even able to talk about the biology of the body.
Cathy: So for, and a lot of times parents will say, Well, they don’t really always say it this bluntly, but I kind of learn it from the conversations. They don’t wanna talk about it cuz they have this weird block that they think their kids are experiencing this, or if you talk about it, then it will create it.
Cathy: Just like if we talk about drugs and alcohol, then my kid will go drink, which is complete. I mean, if you wanna talk data, that is completely wrong. I mean, so significantly wrong. So your level of, okay, let’s assume this is already happening. They’re like, oh, we can’t assume that.
Mike: Yeah. So what we do, what’s amazing, so we just had this happen a couple months ago.
Mike: Like I work with all different schools, I mean Catholic based schools to very rural, small, tiny communities in this country. And I was at a school and I said to, it was a parent program in the evening, what brought you here? And a parent said, cause I wanna see what you’re gonna say. Yes, exactly. They’re testing.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah. They’re testing. And I go, great. What’d you think I was gonna say, now I’m not gonna say the state or the city. Cuz then people start to figure out what schools I was at. But it was in the south. And it was a very well off private faith-based school. Okay. And they said, well, you’re gonna come in potentially the fear you’re hit about sex and my kid’s gonna wanna have more sex.
Mike: And I said, let’s just pause. You think a school in this state with this faith base is gonna allow me to walk into your school? And promote sexual activity. In what world? And as soon as I said that, she’s there to dying laughing. She just needed to hear me say out loud how foolish the train of thought was.
Mike: Right. Once she heard out loud, she’s like, yeah, that’s ridiculous. There’s no way you would’ve been brought here. There’s no, because I know that and people ask me, why don’t you get edgier micr? Why don’t you get more politically proactive on your social media? I’ll get those questions like, why don’t you take sides?
Mike: Cuz we know we, we think you fall this way. Why don’t you preach that more? Because I won’t get into those schools. And people go, so then you’re quail your values to get in schools. No, my values are there. I’m choosing what to speak publicly about because I have a. I believe, and I believe you two do also.
Mike: We have a gift in this earth to do something. This is my gift. Yeah. And if I focus on the wrong thing, not the wrong thing, it’s a wonderful thing that I could focus on over here that could be important. But if it leaves me outta being able to impact hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives, because I chose to say this.
Mike: That would not let me in that school. I wanna get in that school and help all those lives. I lose them and I’m gonna lose them. So I have to choose what’s the gift I’ve been put here for? I can’t fight every fight. So I gotta decide what’s, and that doesn’t mean I’m not standing up for a lot of things going on in the world, but I’m gonna choose where and how so I can get to the group that I can have the biggest impact in the world with.
Mike: And that’s how we’re able to work with so many schools at all different levels, is understanding what I, what fits the culture of that school. And I’m gonna word it that way, right? Because look, if I don’t have to have one rated at our word, I don’t even have to have one rated PG 13 word to get through to a student.
Mike: I could do an all PG show and get through to students and potentially they can change their lives. I don’t change their lives. They do, but they could change their lives. So when parents, and this is a big fear parents have, if we talk about this, I gotta get graphic. Why? You don’t need to talk graphic at all.
Mike: Your kid needs to learn how to be graphic with their partner. You don’t need to get graphic with them. They’re totally different conversations. So here’s how I explain it to parents. What would be a mutually amazing relationship sexual experience for you, for the parent?
Mike: Don’t say it out loud. I don’t need to hear that. But in your mind, what would it be? Well, you can’t answer it because your partner’s not here. I said mutually amazing. So you would’ve to sit down with your partner and say, what’s mutually amazing for us? Could your answer be different depending on the night?
Mike: Every parent’s, like of course it could be different depending on the night, which means your kid’s answer is gonna be different and so is their partners depending on the night. So you don’t need to ask, teach them. Yeah. What mutually amazing is you need to teach ’em to ask their partner. Right?
Mike: There’s no, that’s all I have to say. That’s all I gotta say to my kid. When you choose to be sexually active, be at a place where you can turn your partner and say, what do you absolutely wanna experience with me tonight? And be okay with the yes or the no and the trans, the talking back and forth Look, there was no rated there.
Mike: Yeah. Nothing. But the fear is that we have to get graphic. Yes, we do not. And that’s, if you can understand that you can work in way more schools, you can make a bigger impact on the world. Cuz you don’t actually have to, you have to teach ’em to get comfortable with their own words.
Cathy: And you know what I love about that?
Cathy: So for those of, so for people listening, cause I get these emails a lot and you know, women I’ve spoken with, they’ll say they, they do not like sex education day at school if the school’s still doing it. And let’s hope they do. Especially when it’s in the parochial schools because then their kids do come home and ask questions.
Cathy: Especially the fifth graders, the eighth graders tend to be a little more like, I, they think they know things, but the fifth graders will come home and be like, and I say to the kids, the fifth graders I’m with, go home and ask your parents quick. This is the door that’s open, so now let’s go ask. And so the parents are like ringing their hands, like, I don’t like this day because
Cathy: but what I love about what you’re saying is, you know, so I hope everybody heard that. You don’t have to get into a, I mean, maybe it’s about names for the body parts, but you don’t have to get into your specifics about your sex life. It’s about talking to them, answering their question. That’s all. STEM lead.
Mike: And you got here,
Mike: I hope every parent hears this, cuz you brought a brilliant point, Cathy which is, who do you want to be their resource, right? Yeah. And so if you are thinking, if they come home, start asking questions, I’m not gonna be comfortable. I thought you were a parent, right? Like that’s the, that’s part of the equation.
Mike: I’m gonna get uncomfortable sometimes for the good of my child. Yeah. That’s the name of great parenting. I’m willing to be uncomfortable cause I love you so much. So yes, this could get uncomfortable. I’m so honored you asked because I get to be the resource now instead of porn. Instead of your 12 year old friend or your 18 year old friend.
Mike: I get to be a resource and it’s okay that I’m uncomfortable with this. This is okay. This is part of parenting. So I’m
Todd: trying to picture somebody listening to this and for some reason I have the moms of Team Zen who have young boys. And I’m generalizing and I know it’s not fair. But what they say is they’re not asking me didley squats.
Todd: So you’re like, let them lead. Great idea. Cathy, Mike and Todd. They’re. There’s no leading going on. As a matter of fact, the minute I bring anything up, they roll out, they run away the room as fast as they can. I don’t know if that’s a fair question, but what do you say to those parents?
Mike: Oh yeah. I love this question actually.
Mike: It’s okay. One of my favorites. So, it’s very simple. Ask them based on what the shows and movies they’re watching about sexual scenes from those shows and movies. Bring it up. Yeah. So they’re not gonna leave. Leave. Yeah. Right. So, there was a, and I’ve shared this example over the years, a few times, but there was a movie with Steve Carrell dinner for Schmuck’s, I think it was the name of the movie.
Mike: In that movie, these people are not supposed to be intellectually sharp, these certain characters. And the one says, I lost your gpo. And the other one’s like, well, where’d you lose it to? Like, it was a purse. They’re literally talking like it was an item and the one brings up, is it in her purse or something, like they’re being sarcastic, but, and.
Mike: So on the ride home after this, my kids were young, but not young, too young to see it. They were of the ratings to see it. And that was one scene. The movie’s not about that at all but that was one scene. And so what do you do if you’re a parent? Bring it up. Hey, did everything that movie make sense?
Mike: And if your kids say, yes, bring up the scene. Yeah. Well, what about the scene where they talked about this? If your kids are like, well, I got it. Okay, explain it to me. Yeah. That’s, you know, just make it nonchalant. Like, tell me what it was. And
Todd: the more and the more casual your energy is as the parent Yeah. The more likely it is to be a successful
Mike: interaction. Yeah. And if they’re like yeah, I don’t really like, okay, that’s okay. Here’s what it meant. Yeah. Like, let’s just be here’s biologically factual, what’s being referred to here. Yeah,
Cathy: and I, the way that, like, I’m thinking when you were saying that, cuz there’s a lot of things I brought up with the girls, but one, like, you know, we watch Euphoria and I’ve watched both seasons and in, I think it’s in season one still, there’s a scene, sex scene between two of the characters and he chokes her.
Cathy: During it. Yeah. Because that’s very porn. Related. Sure. Like, I’m gonna choke you while we’re, and so it’s something that I was like, you guys, there’s a scene like I just brought it up. There’s a scene where they’re choking. I know that’s from porn. That is not a thing. Now again, Mike, we have to be careful cuz there are couples who make choices in their adult life.
Cathy: To be more what? Curious when it comes to trying new things, and I get that, but that is a, as far as my girls who are early in their lives, this is not something you have to expect or this is not something you have to experience if this is not what you want. This is I know directly where this sun, this scene comes from.
Cathy: And it’s the two of them. Well in
Todd: that scene that boys like, I thought that I was supposed to choke you. This is what you wanted. Yeah. And she’s like, why would you ever, and it’s because of poor,
Mike: right? I know Euphoria well, sure. And so colleges, students will tell you and students who were just finishing up high school as it was wrapping up, which is this last year.
Mike: Yeah, last year. Will tell you that they have seen a massive increase in rough sex. Yes, for sure. Out, out of that show. And so when it, people argue when they bring up porn, you can argue with Euphoria. A pornographic depiction because people saw it and thought that’s what I’m supposed to do.
Mike: Now, what’s fascinating is they saw that scene where the woman’s like, what? And he’s explaining Well, that’s what I thought. It wasn’t a positive example. Right. But they still see it. Oh, well I gotta try that now. Yeah, but wait, it didn’t go well. But I gotta try it. Yeah. Right. So it’s a good example of visual video watching makes people think even if it was a bad example.
Mike: What if we try that and you know, that character and to back up a little bit Yeah. It is a thing. Oh yeah. Right. So that the word is we have to even care for on that. We can’t even say it’s not a thing cuz it’s a thing. Yeah. The question is, do you wanna be treated that way? Yeah.
Cathy: Right. Is you, this is not something you have to ex, you know, expect And this is not something you have to do.
Cathy: This is a thing. Yeah. That you get to choose. There is, yeah. Absolutely. But what’s interesting about, you know, just to get into the pop culture of it, that character, he actually, and they don’t have him a lot in second season. He actually is trying to have a relationship and he doesn’t know. And the it turns out that a lot of the people he’s associating with are a little more, I’m gonna use a language hardcore meaning are less connected.
Cathy: Less intimate, and he’s actually trying Yeah. To, and so it’s just interesting, like you said, Mike, like what they were showing. There was someone who didn’t know what they were doing, who was possibly hurting, someone who actually didn’t wanna do it. Right. And yet people are then doing it. It’s this mis. So I’m gonna go to the next thing, which is, I was telling Mike before we started that I was in New York with my friend mania and my daughter JC.
Cathy: We saw a new play called I tried to practice saying it, prima faci. I think JC says Prima Faci. Prima. It’s actually Latin. Oh, okay. Maybe it’s not like that. No, but JC says it with an Italian accent. Okay. So she’s been saying a fatia, you know, and I’ve been, and if you look it up and in America We say prima faci, like, you know.
Cathy: Okay. So prima faci basically just means first impression and it is a the whole play. It’s a hundred minutes. One woman play, Jodi Comer is on the stage the whole time and she, the whole thing is about how she is a lawyer and she is the de defense attorney for People who have, I’m trying to not gender it, but it’s all in the play.
Cathy: It’s all men who have committed sexual assault or allegedly, and she is their defense attorney and she is known for getting them off like she, she’s crushing in her field. The play takes a turn. I will not give away any deep things, but this is in the explanation. She is then sexually assaulted. So now she, again, first sight.
Cathy: Now she’s seeing it from the experience of trauma instead of someone, you know, before she’s questioning women on the stand. Yeah. And saying, but do you know what day it was? Do you know what time it was? What was he wearing? What were you doing? And there are things that woman can remember very well that are ingrained, but there’s many things.
Cathy: That woman cannot remember at all, and she uses that against them until she experiences it and makes all the, I’m putting this in air quotes, mistakes, showering. You know, waiting a few days, all these things that people like hammer people on the stand for doing. Why would you do that? Yeah, why wouldn’t you call the police?
Cathy: Because as we were talking about, so I’m bringing this up because it was a fantastic depiction and in our playbill. Yeah. And Todd, you have this, it gave all these statistics and I was hoping maybe you could read
Todd: some of them. Yeah. So this is into play, bill. I want to. Just mentioned the sources New York Times, US Center for Disease Control, women’s Center for Youth and Family Services.
Todd: And I’ll just read a handful. ’em every 98 seconds, someone in the US is [00:26:40] sexually assaulted. Like let that sink in every 98 seconds. And Mike, you can disagree because this is your field. You can agree or disagree or maybe an exaggeration now, but this is what I’m reading, an estimated 735,000. Rapes were reported in the US last year, 735,700, and that says Reported.
Todd: Reported.
Mike: Right. So it’s key language. Language, key language. Because if one is happening every 93 seconds, that’s way, way, way more numbers than correct.
Todd: Yeah. It is estimated only 19% of all rapes are reported. That means that probably well over 3.8 million women were raped in the US last year.
Todd: Nearly one in two women have experienced rape, sexual violence, or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime. One in two. In eight out of 10 rape cases, the victim knew the perpetrator. Yeah. Trans women. Disabled women, and BIPOC. I don’t know what that stands. Bipo. What’s bipo? I don’t know what that is.
Cathy: People of color. Okay. Yeah, but I,
Mike: go ahead. Keep
Todd: going. Okay. They are twice as likely to be assaulted. Only about 5% of rapes reported to the police lead to an arrest. 5% of the people who are courageous enough to bring it up. Only 5% of them
Cathy: lead to an arrest. And hold on. Todd Black indigenous, and people of color. Thank you. So I’m sorry I couldn’t get that at the beginning. Everybody, thank you.
Todd: 97.5% of all sexual assault perpetrators arrested, walk free. And lastly, approximately 70 women commit suicide every day in the US following an act of violence. Yeah,
Cathy: so that’s what you’re reading before you even start this play and again, a lot of these stats, I know we talk about these things on the show, but this is what you’re dealing, this is what you’re doing.
Cathy: Mike, is, I don’t know, do you use stats in your presentations? Okay. Tell me why. I’m so interested because nobody
Mike: thinks they’re the stat. Tell me more. What? Yeah, so if I tell you, alright, go to those numbers, right? By the age of 18, one in four women will be one in three to one in four women will be experiencing sexual assault.
Mike: Okay? That’s another one that’s out there, right? So what somebody does for their own safety, if subconsciously is the human brain wants to believe it’s safe, why wouldn’t it? So it does this 1, 2, 3. I’m pointing that as if other people, one, two, not me, One in four is a 25% chance, which means a 75% chance it won’t be me.
Mike: The odds are good. That’s what the mind’s doing. I’m not saying that’s a real thing. Right. If it’s one in three 67% chance I, this will never happen to me. These on the world of betting odds are high betting odds. So what people do is they go to those numbers and think, this won’t be me. Yeah. I will not do the things those people did.
Cathy: Or experience the things
Mike: those people experienced, but they’re, they’ll specifically think, I won’t do the things those people did. Got it. So you get victim blaming built into this. If I don’t do the things they did, this won’t happen to me. They won’t choose me. They won’t select me. And so that will solve the
Todd: problem.
Todd: So they start building a case in their own mind of how they’re not going to. This isn’t
Cathy: gonna happen to them. Blaming the person who it did happen to, that they Right. Must have done something wrong. Because I would never do that. I would never get in. People say that. I would never put myself in that.
Cathy: That’s right. Experience. Yeah, that’s right. I hear that all
Mike: the time. Yeah. So, but if I walked on a stage and I say, to what? Thousands, and by the way, I work with schools in Chicago, right? Yeah. So in Catholic schools in Chicago, and I walk onto a stage and there’s a thousand students in the room. And I say, do most people ask or go for it in the real moment?
Mike: And they yell, go for it. I don’t need any stats. Right. They all just said the culture is designed to go for it. They’re o admitting it. So then I go, why don’t we ask? And they give the reasons immediately and everybody’s on the same page. I don’t need stats. Now you’re thinking about your own situation, your life situations you’ve been in, or you fear or you look forward to being in.
Mike: It’s your life. As soon as I use a stat, I usually disconnect you from your life. Oh, interesting. Unless you’re already one that’s represented in the statistic. That’s the exception to that. Right. So what we explain to people is statistics are great for this, for getting funding to help solve the problem.
Mike: Seriously, it’s a really important thing to have the research to prove this is a problem, and that’s what statistics are great for. They are horrific for education and shifting change and how people view the world. Well, it’s so funny
Todd: because I use, and I don’t know if this is right or not, one in six women are sexually assaulted on a college campus.
Todd: I don’t know if that’s true. I don’t think. And when you put the air quotes, why do you do that? Well, sexually assault is such an ambiguous. Term. Does that mean raped? Does that mean it’s the
Cathy: umbrella, right? Is that the right umbrella? Yeah. The
Mike: problem with the word rape is it’s not a legal term for most of these cases.
Mike: Yeah. So most states where these, where somebody’s going to the police. Yeah. They’re being charged with sexual battery or sexual assault. But the word rape is more of a federal term, typically. And it’s more of a specific crime also than sexual assault necessarily. Yeah. So we use the word sexual assault cause it is all encompassing.
Mike: Right. And we wanna be more all encompassing in this conversation. So that means you touch somebody on the rear end who didn’t want you touching ’em on the rin sexual assault. Yeah. You talk about the stranger attack and they all the sexual assault. And so there, there’s, there are different levels and every state does have first degree, second degree, third degree, different versions as far as the severity of the penalty.
Mike: But they’re all sexual assault. Yeah. And so that’s where we come from. So when a campus says, their numbers. It can depend. Yeah. We don’t know what that means. Yeah. What that’s true. It’s still a problem no matter what it means. Yeah, and that’s where people get caught up on. What does that mean?
Mike: It’s a problem no matter what it means. You shouldn’t have to worry about getting slapped on the butt. You certainly shouldn’t have to worry about what, when we picture the word rape of that happening, well,
Todd: we all have different, the reason I use that number one in six is cuz I have three daughters, which means assuming that’s right, you flip a coin, it’s a 50% chance that one of these three will be assaulted.
Todd: And I work with men who have daughters and my thing is we spend a lot of time protecting our young ladies or talking to them, trying to protect them. I judge, we do a really crappy job of. Educating our young men, and I know when you speak to groups, it’s boys, girls, all genders and everything else. But I just, and maybe it’s getting better, but what I want is for the men who already have a good moral compass and know all the things that we want them to know about consent, to be able to not just follow that for themselves, but to be a leader in their peer group.
Todd: And it doesn’t happen. And because if we speak on behalf of consent, if you’re in a, I’m thinking of like my college fraternity house and I brought up co consent, I’d be like a wimp. Like, why are you talking about, we’re talking about how many times we get laid. We don’t wanna talk about. Being consensual.
Todd: That’s not cool. And we have this, and we have this need to be accepted in part of our peer group. And my hope is that we can start changing
Mike: that narrative. All right, so let’s, I wanna do two things about, I don’t address two aspects of what you just brought up. One, the one in six. What if I remove the word sexual assault?
Mike: And I said, what are the odds? A college student, so I’m not even identifying now, a college student who is sexually active, has a partner go at least a little further than they hoped. All. I mean,
Cathy: I think all.
Todd: Yeah. Right. Most people answer. All right, so
Mike: we’re in a hundred percent. Yeah. Why did we say one in six?
Mike: Right? Because if you went farther than I want it without my consent. It’s some form of sexual assault, whether that’s fourth degree or Right. You didn’t have consent. So that’s part of the problem with the stat. Yeah, it just proved it right there. We went from one and six to all, that’s a whole different ballgame.
Mike: So now if we know that, all right, that’s the first part that means. Whether I’m identify as a male or female, non-binary, that means I wanna make sure I’m treating my partner. So I never do that. Right. So what we have to do is we have to champion that when we do education around this. So I’ll give you an example.
Mike: When I have the students learn how to ask for a kiss, I literally teach the steps to ask for a kiss. Cuz they’ve never, they don’t know how. They don’t know how. If you don’t teach how they’ll go, well that’s nice in theory, nobody’s gonna do it. So we teach the steps and then have a student come up on stage and role play asking the microphone stand, right, right.
Mike: It’s as safe as it could get. It’s not a real person, it’s a microphone stand and everybody laughs and has a good time about it. But here’s the wild part. After that, I stop and go to the student who’s on stage. Would you do that in real life? And a bunch of them are like, of course. And I say, why? Because why wouldn’t I wanna give them a choice?
Mike: And the room goes nuts because somebody is finally championed, why wouldn’t I wanna do the right thing? Around this choice. And students wanna do the right thing, but nobody’s role model championing it. Now, I will tell you there are students, when I say. All right. Now that you’ve done it on stage, will you do this in real life?
Mike: Like, I don’t think so. That’s what I thought you were gonna say. And I’ll go, why not? And people took me to like chew them out. Right? They’re on the stage. Like, how dare they see that the guy here for, to be honest, right? Yeah. And I’m like, okay, let’s go. Why not? Well, I wouldn’t be the aggressor.
Mike: Oh, so you’re not gonna do anything? Well, this is a different conversation, but just curious, why should your partner, everything always be on your partner? Right. Interesting. And then they’re like, oh, well, I mean that’s a good, and you help them recognize by just being gentle and having the conversation through curiosity versus judgment.
Mike: You get them to where they’re going. Yeah, why wouldn’t I wanna do that? Like they, you hear them transfer right there on the website. They transform. I mean, on the stage they transform their answer because they realize. Yeah. Why wouldn’t I want this? Yeah. And the audience goes with them, like the audience is fully with them because they wanna do the right thing.
Mike: These kids wanna do the right thing. They do. We’re not making it as safe to champion that. Yeah. And so when you do show them championing that they’re like, let’s champion that.
Cathy: You know, I, this isn’t much of a switch, but I just keep thinking about the story, so I wanna share it. I think something that we’ve kind of alluded to is a lot of parents don’t want it to be their kid or they don’t wanna bring it up and they know these stats, they know these numbers, and so it has to be somebody else.
Cathy: Right. And the best example of this is I was with somebody that I care about very much a couple weekends ago, a guy and he was telling me about his son. And you know, I always bring up these things like, how are things going as far? And he’s like, you know, listen to this. He’s like, there’s girls.
Cathy: In my kid’s high school who they’ll at a party, go up to a bedroom, get naked, call a guy, tell him to come up there, eventually after they’ve fooled around, push him off and then report him. Yeah. And I was like, okay, hold on. Like, and he knows what I do for a living. Like I, it, and the way he said it, it just seemed and I’m like, wait, like re like.
Cathy: Really walk me through this. And my point is his son had told him this or other parents who have sons had told him this because someone’s got to be at fault and it’s not gonna be their kids. It’s these girls who you can imagine the other words that were used to describe these girls and you know, I’m.
Cathy: Here as a woman and also with three daughters and everything, and I’m like, you’re looking at someone that you’re talking about. Do you really think that people are capable? I’m not saying it’s never happened ever in the history of the world, but do you really think there’s a group of girls at your high school who like, this is their goal?
Cathy: But why I’m bringing this up, Mike, is don’t you feel like you hear these kind of stories where someone’s gotta blame someone? Yeah.
Mike: Well, let’s go to that one. Let’s talk about that. That one. So what, I’ve been in this work a long time and I’m in schools all the time. That’s, that one is not one people are is that turning to
Mike: so, but let’s go there. Why’d you have sex with her? If she’s so dangerous, don’t walk in the door. Right. And so that, that’s the one thing I have brought up throughout my career. Somebody’s like, well, she enticed me or he enticed me. And I’m like, so if you think somebody could false report you right.
Mike: Why are you having sex with him? Just don’t have sex with them. Well, how do I better stop from a false support? Don’t have sex with people you don’t trust. You don’t know well enough. See, it’s so easy. I mean, so then they’re like, well, how can you know who you trust? Well then you’re telling me you don’t trust, so you’re gonna have to wait longer.
Mike: I mean, that, that’s the answer to this question. But don’t you’re literally telling me you’re choosing to have sex with people who are high risk for you, for whatever reason, that high risk is. Make a different choice. Yeah. Right. So the idea that there are young women getting naked and saying, come touch me so I can falsely accuse you the, like you said, are we saying nothing like that could ever happen?
Mike: We’re not saying that, but the odds that’s happening are so slim. We might wanna look at what happened in the sexual situation that changed. From consensual to not consensual, and that’s where nobody goes. Right. They assume that once you are naked and once we start doing things, all is on the table.
Mike: That’s never been true. Yeah. Never ask anybody who’s been married a long time, you’re having sex with a partner. Can you do any sexual act you want to them? No. Almost. They’re just like, no. If I did certain ones, that’d be in, so yes, you would be in trouble because you don’t have consent to do that.
Mike: Why do you think the high school was any different? They might’ve wanted to play around, they might wanted to touch and not have sexual intercourse. Right. Naked. Because a lot will do that. Cause I think I wanna be a virgin, so I’m gonna do everything but write that or they’ll use the button. But that is literally something that they will do.
Mike: Yeah. To avoid. But it’s a choice they’re making. So you better know the choices that you two are making. Yeah. So if you walked in that room and they’re naked and you’re thinking, grabbing sex, ask, and Hey, are you want sex right now? Is that what’s going on? If they say yes, you better get specific. Right.
Mike: What does that mean to you? And they’re like, [00:40:00] what do you mean? What does that mean to you? Is that Oro oral? Is that vaginal? Is that anal? Is that, like, what does that mean to you? And if anybody’s getting grossed out with these words right now, the, those are the three most common right forms that people bring up.
Mike: And so you have to say, if they’re like, well, it’s not anal or it’s not this, okay, we need to know that. What are we talking about? We’ve been, know what we’re talking about, but this is a lack of maturity. I’m gonna engage, my kids are engaging in sexual activity about how dare you ask them to talk about it.
Mike: So now I’m gonna blame the kid. Who didn’t stop the crime? Instead of my kid who might have committed the crime. Right. Because I’m blaming my kid because I don’t think they should have been able to talk about sex that they were having. I know. It’s so that it all comes back to that. Can your kid talk about sex?
Mike: If they can’t stop blaming the world for the sexual choices they’re making when they’re not able to talk about it, as long as they’re not the one being harmed, let me stress that. Of course. Right, right. Of course, if they’re a survivor, we’re not blaming them ever. But if they’re the aggressor, And they’re blaming the other person for their actions when they’re the aggressor.
Mike: No, they’re choosing to do that in the moment.
Cathy: Well, and so, and this is like old school. This is stuff we talked about on previous shows, Mike, but I just have to reiterate cuz it’s important, the whole idea of, we just wanna see where it goes. It’s not romantic if we talk about it. I, that it’s such a trickle down from old generations.
Cathy: Like that’s just immaturity, like the abil. And again, I know some people don’t wanna hear that and they still believe like, I just wanna. Like, it’s almost like people wanna disassociate and just see what happens versus like make choices.
Mike: Students will prove that wrong in two seconds. When I say to students, if you find out the thing you wanna do, your partner wants to do, is this hot?
Mike: They yell hot. Like the whole room is like, that’s hot. Of course it is. Cuz you’re getting to hear Yeah. They want you the way they, you want them. And by the way, I’m talking about a kiss for anybody. Listen to this, I’m talking about a kiss. So if you wanna hear that, I wanna kiss you. If you wanna kiss me, of course you’re gonna hear the other things too.
Mike: If you’re in a mature, healthy relationship Yeah. That you wanna do. If you’re telling me, you turn your partner and let’s give an example of a mature, let’s say adult relationship, could be marriage. And the partner goes, you want me to go down on you right now? And if you want them to go down on you, or you gonna be like, well, that ruined it.
Mike: You should have asked me. I don’t want it anymore. All right. Well then you’re sexually immature, even as an adult. Right, because multi altern. Yeah, thank you. Right. That’d be great. And they might even respond with, what can I do for you? Yeah. Like, like, like if you’re gonna do that for me, that’s a healthy example.
Mike: Now you don’t, it doesn’t need to be transactional like that but they might respond that way. That’s healthy. If you’re simply going, oh, they asked. I can’t respond. Think about that. Right, right. So weird that think I can’t answer that. I know. Well, then we got bigger problems here. We’re
Cathy: acting from our own immaturity and we get way too defensive about it.
Todd:
Todd: So, as we start to close, I have. A comment and then a question, and I don’t know if you wanna close with anything. No. This could be one of my favorite things that you taught me, Mike, was the false reporting statistic. I know you like statistics, but what is it? Around two to 4% or
Mike: something?
Mike: Anywhere in that range? Depending where you’re looking. It could be anywhere from one to like four to 5%, which is the average of reported crimes. Right. Which go back to what we discussed earlier. The reported is the 2010 percentage, so, Even 4% even go with the high 4% of a tiny 20%. It just less than, is less like 0.1 of a percent.
Todd: Well, and in addition to that so what I like about that is when Cathy has this conversation with somebody she knows and talks about a false reporter, something like that, and you’re like, great, let’s talk about that. But let’s make sure we talk abo, let’s dedicate one to 4% of our energy. Of our conversation to that.
Todd: And that’s just a wonderful reframe for me. Like cuz that’s the
Cathy: 96% love,
Todd: love to say, let’s just talk about this. And it’s just a really wonderful reframe that
Mike: you talked to. Well, here’s another way to use Cathy, your conversation earlier. The guy who goes, well my son goes to this school where these girls get naked and stop them and go, how many guys do you know they’ve been accused that are friends of your sons?
Mike: Yeah. And if they go lots, you might wanna help your friend get new friends. Yeah. Your son get new friends. Because most of us don’t know, lots of people have been accused of rape or sexual assault. Right. So if your world is surrounded by those people maybe we start to look in the mirror and go, why is my world surrounded by people accused of sexual violence?
Todd: And I don’t know, this is probably not the best way to close the show, but I need to ask you one more time. He’s gonna open up when I can you. Give consent when you’re high or drunk.
Mike: So it the language is whether you’re of sound minor, incapacitated. Okay. Just to be clear, legally that most states run on that language, either of sound mind or not of sound mind or incapacitated, the reason I want to clear that up is that some people mistakenly think if I’ve had a drink of alcohol, I can’t consent.
Mike: And that in most states would not be even close to reality. And so what happened is our country ran around going, consent must be sober. And when I tell you I’m sober, most people think that means you’ve had zero drops of alcohol. So when you say that somebody hearing it goes, that’s so overboard.
Mike: So outta whack, I don’t believe now in how your teaching consent. Yeah. And you lose all credibility and you are losing credibility cuz you’re inaccurate. Yeah. So what we have to help people understand is my partner of sound mind to make this choice? Or are they in any way incapacitated, in any way incapacitated?
Mike: If they are, they cannot consent. Now the most common question we get back is, Well then what if I can’t tell? Then you can’t tell me you have consent. So you better know them well enough to know what that is. Yeah. And we all know that’s different for every human being that’s different on age. Yeah.
Mike: Right. We know that maybe when we were, when someone was 20 our age, they’d have four drinks over the night. They’re okay. They’re, they’d be fine. They’re okay. But at 52 drinks, they’re gone. Right. So it just really depends on the person and the age and all the circumstances go around that. So you better know the answer to that.
Mike: Yeah. That’s helpful. Yeah. I say to couple couples listening to this, have you asked each other? What’s the point that, you know, if I’ve had this many, I’m not the same human being anymore. Yeah. Most of us, if we’re in a healthy relationship, we know the number. Yeah. Like our spouse might even say after this many, cut me off.
Mike: And I don’t mean that for you to control me. I mean that for me. Yeah. Cut me off. Help me out. You’re the one who’s sober in the situation, so, there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s a healthy acknowledgement of your boundaries and you wanna honor them. Yeah.
Todd: So this is the third time we’ve had Mike on the podcast.
Todd: The first one was Podcast 347. I’ll put it in the show notes. The second time was Podcast 411. And then we’ve also had you on Team Zen, and we’re gonna have you on Team Zen and at our conference few weeks, and we’ve had you at our conference. So, yeah, you got a picture of us, a picture of you up in the on the conference poster.
Todd: So, if anybody appreciated this conversation and wants more. Mike Domitrz, I’ll include all that in the show notes. I also want to give you an opportunity, Mike, if there’s parents out there and they wanna bring you to their school, or I think you may have somebody was listening way back when and they brought you and she was a military Yeah.
Todd: Or something, so That’s right. You do get some. Some, not business, but some attention as a result of being on the podcast. So what if there’s more people out there that wanna reach out to you? Yeah, that
Mike: was Fort Bragg. Yeah, that brought me in after hearing your show. Wow. Yeah. Fantastic. So they’re really powerful.
Mike: So yes, they simply go to centerforrespect.com, just like it sounds all spelled out. Three, three words, all to once center for respect.com. They go there, they’ll see every, if they want a university or they want a school or they want a business they’ll see it all right there. If they scroll to the bottom of the page, they’ll find our social media links.
Mike: And we’re putting out a video a day right now that is relevant to all these topics that are usually under, they’re always under a minute. So if a parent wants to go down there, click on our YouTube or YouTube page and subscribe. They’ll get a video every day. This is a little new little. A little bit of information
Cathy: they can share.
Cathy: Well, and just, I’m sorry, Todd, just that alone to look at something every day and to either ask your kid a question or say to your kid, you should see this. Yeah. Or I’m gonna send this to you. Yeah. That, I mean, the amount of stuff that I was just sitting here getting texts from my kids. We share TikToks, we share YouTube clips, and to be able to be like, this is the clip today.
Cathy: I thought you’d appreciate this because of the story you told me, blah, blah, blah or because we watched Euphoria. So think about this as a resource. Everybody, like if you don’t know what to do, start with Mike’s stuff. You know, so anyway, sorry
Todd: Todd. No, I was actually gonna say the exact same thing.
Todd: Okay. So Mike Domitrz, heartfelt gratitude. Thank you so much. Not just for being on the podcast or being an ambassador for in a world that we need to get to. And I’m just so glad you’re on this planet, doing what you do. Well, I
Mike: want to thank both of you cuz one, you’re friends and I’m so grateful for that in my life and what you do every week for now, how many years?
Mike: 12. Yeah. That’s awesome. With this podcast. So for anybody out here who’s listening, I’ll on behalf of them, thank you. What you give out to the world. Thank you. Thank you, Mike.
Todd: All right, keep tracking. We’ll see you all next week.
Mike: Adios.
