Todd and Cathy discuss two factors that make parenting feel more self-directed and understandable. While it will still be messy, unpredictable, and tiring, at least you will feel more in your integrity while doing it! They also talk about listening skills, anxiety, NCAA basketball, and Beyoncé’s new album.

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Time Stamps

(00:00:00) Intro

(00:03:34) Tournament of Bad

(00:10:24) 5 regrets of dying

(00:15:30) The differences in the way we watch sports

(00:29:06) The first secret to parenting

(00:37:30) The second secret to parenting

(00:38:05) Todd’s Starbuck’s story

(00:40:11) Cathy’s late bus story

(00:52:00) The 1 rule of parenting

(00:59:26) Jeremy Kraft from Avid Painting and Remodeling 630-956-1800

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Blog Post

Embracing the Nuances of Parenting and Finding Harmony in Artistry

Parenting, much like art, thrives on nuance, spontaneity, and the courage to traverse beyond the conventional boundaries. This intricate dance between guiding and supporting, teaching and learning, speaks volumes of the multifaceted journey that is raising a child. Similarly, artistry, in its purest form, is a testament to breaking free from genre constraints and celebrating the vast spectrum of human expression. In this blog post, we will explore the nuanced approach to parenting and how these themes resonate within the world of music, specifically through the lens of Beyoncé’s latest album, “Cowboy Carter.”

The Two Secrets to Parenting

Parenting doesn’t come with a manual, and if it did, it would be more akin to a choose-your-own-adventure book rather than a straightforward guide. The first ‘secret,’ if one dares to call it, is not really a secret at all but a principle: attunement. Attunement is about tuning in—really listening and understanding—to what your child needs in the moment. It might be encouragement to tackle something on their own or a shoulder to cry on after a tough day. It might mean celebrating a bus that eventually came or simply saying, “That sucks,” with genuine empathy over a botched travel plan. Parenting requires us to be agile, to bend without breaking, and above all, to never lose sight of the profound connection between us and our children.

The other so-called secret is the acknowledgment of the parenting paradox. Sometimes, the best way to support your child is to challenge them, and the best way to prepare them for the world is to shield them from it momentarily. It’s a delicate balance that often leaves even the most seasoned parents guessing. But here’s the beautiful part—guessing means you’re thinking, adapting, and learning. It means you’re engaged in the messiness and the grandeur of parenting.

Finding Harmony in Artistry

Art, like parenting, does not thrive on rigidity but on freedom—the freedom to explore, to cross genres, and to blend melodies in ways that stir the soul. Beyoncé’s “Cowboy Carter” is a masterful celebration of this freedom. Through her album, she journeys through country, pop, and more, challenging the normative boundaries that define musical genres. Her collaboration with icons like Dolly Parton and Willie Nelson, along with the inclusion of potent intersong narratives, crafts a tapestry of sound that is as rich in diversity as it is in unity.

The album serves as a powerful reminder that artistry, at its core, is about connection, expression, and breaking down walls. It’s about seeing the world not in compartments but as a vast, interconnected expanse waiting to be explored. Beyoncé’s work on this album mirrors the essence of what it means to connect deeply with our children—recognizing the myriad ways they express themselves and encouraging them to traverse their multifaceted identities without fear.


In drawing parallels between the nuanced approaches to parenting and the exploration of artistry exemplified by “Cowboy Carter,” we find a common thread: the courage to embrace complexity. Whether it’s through the tears of a missed bus that reveal deeper anxieties or an album that breaks genre boundaries, there’s a profound beauty in acknowledging and celebrating the myriad dimensions of human experience. As parents, as music lovers, as people navigating this world, our greatest strength lies in our ability to tune in—to our children, to art, to each other—and find harmony in the beautiful cacophony of life.



Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number. Wait for it. I have it written down. Everybody relax. 7 59 7 5 9. Why listen, listeners on parenting radio, because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is the best predictor.

Todd: of a child’s well being is a parent’s self understanding. On today’s show I have a bunch of things we’re probably not going to get to it all. Um, we’re going to talk a little bit about, I just, you don’t know this yet sweetie. Oh. The secret to parenting. Oh geez. How’s that for a teaser? The one thing you need to know as a parent to, to be happy.

Cathy: Well I’m [00:01:00] laughing right now because we look like twins.

Todd: Um, well I have purple glasses on and I have a zip up sweat sweater on.

Cathy: I think everybody should go to YouTube to look at what we look like because we look like twins. Go Hawks. Go, well, we’re wearing a lot of Hawks gear, but we’re wearing like similar color sweatshirts and And we’re both in front of microphones.

Cathy: And we both have glasses and we both, so we’re twins. But anyway, the perfect, there’s no such thing. Did you, what did you say? The perfect parent? Uh, no,

Todd: not

Cathy: the perfect parent. What’d you say?

Todd: A secret to parenting. Oh, there are no, there are no secrets. Oh, there’s, well, not after we tell everybody. Okay. So that’s the one thing.

Todd: Um. We’re going to talk a little bit about, uh, sports and what we, so we’re recording this Sunday morning at 1137 AM central.

Cathy: We don’t know what happened yet.

Todd: In about two and a half hours, tip off of the women’s national basketball championship will be played against, uh, the South Carolina Gamecocks and the Hawkeyes of Iowa.

Cathy: I’m not just wearing my hat, my Hawkeyes hat, I’m wearing my, [00:02:00] my 22 shirt.

Todd: And I’m going to play the University of Iowa fight song, which I don’t really know what it is.

Todd: I don’t know. I don’t know.

Cathy: You don’t. You don’t know. We’ve been to all the football games and I played this.

Todd: Don’t pay attention to stuff, sweetie. I guess not. So we are in the camp of the Iowa Hawkeyes because we went to school in Iowa. We went to Drake University. Our middle daughter goes to Iowa. My niece, Ava, goes to South Carolina.

Todd: So there’s a little bit of a civil war going on. Competition, baby. between the family. So we’ll see what happens. Um, so we’re gonna talk a little bit about sports. Um, I’m going to talk a little bit about why you’re awesome, sweetie. Oh, I like this. And why I’m a little less awesome. I love myself, but I’m a little less awesome.

Todd: No, you’re, you’re awesome. Yeah, just a little less.

Cathy: Do you notice how we say first thing? Well, no, no, no. You say, no. What did you say? Firstly? I can’t remember. Sweetie,

Todd: I’ve never used the word [00:03:00] firstly, even though I think it is a word. Is it? I don’t know. Probably not.

Cathy: Do we say secondly?

Todd: Uh, yeah, secondly for sure, but why would you say firstly, because it’s assumed that this is the first thing you’re saying.

Cathy: Yeah, okay, I’m starting to

Todd: confuse myself, so move on. Allow myself to introduce myself. But first we’re going to do a little bit of Tournament of Bad. You and I just had breakfast. It was so good. And, um, You and Jess text each other, uh, headlines from the digital version of People Magazine. Now, almost every day.

Todd: Peggy, Aunt Peg, gets you the People Magazine subscription. Comes in the mail every week. And last week it was about Valerie Bertinelli. And then,

Cathy: like, there’s one about Robert De Niro, there’s one about Ryan Gosling. Like, usually they’re, like, typical People Magazines.

Todd: And then you head on over to the digital version.

Todd: And I just first need to just officially announce what this

Video Clip: is. Tournament of Bad. Tournament of Bad.

Todd: Uh, those are two of our daughters and Owen [00:04:00] saying Tournament of Bad from like 10 years ago. Why is the People Magazine digital version in the Tournament of Bad, sweetie?

Cathy: Well, because their headlines that they email me are like literally the worst possible thing that happened anywhere, ever.

Cathy: And so it, the headline will be, I actually just got it today. Do you want me to read it to you? Please. I will, I texted it to Jess. Man pleads guilty to murder after allegedly cutting his wife into 200 pieces. Yeah. And then so Jess and I will send these to each other and say, good morning from People Magazine.

Cathy: It’s

Todd: almost like they’re two separate companies. Is it possible that maybe, does it have the People Magazine logo? It’s People Magazine, right?

Cathy: Yes, it’s, but I don’t understand. It’s like a derivation of it. Yeah, they

Todd: decided like, okay, we’re going to keep it old school with the printed magazine, but we need to make more money.

Todd: And the way we make more money is by selling advertising, right? By

Cathy: Well, and they got my attention, right? I’m not clicking and reading the article, but I am screenshotting it and sending it. You’re [00:05:00] talking about it right now? Right. Exactly. I don’t

Todd: understand. This part of the podcast is not brought to you by People Magazine Digital Version.

Todd: Um, so that’s the first thing. And we might end up talking a little bit about ADHD because I’m really ignorant on the connection between ADHD and emotional well being. Um, and you and I were having a conversation last night and we might talk about, um, Cameron, uh, having, uh, an emotional, uh, our middle daughter had an emotional expression once something didn’t go her way.

Todd: I

Cathy: thought you were going to talk about in some way that I was awesome. You skipped over

Todd: that. I’m going to start there. Oh, we are. Okay, great. So I coach men and I have realized, and we’ve been sharing this, I don’t know if it’s on Team Zen or on the podcast, but lately, and you know, we’ve kind of been saying this for a long time and I’m trying not to beat myself up too badly here.

Todd: Okay.

Cathy: Okay.

Todd: When I wake up in the morning, Uhhuh, , I think about me. , I think about yes. My day. Yes. And I’ve been coaching these guys and I’m, I’m sharing similar, um, sometimes [00:06:00] challenges, um, with, there’s times when you and I have, uh, don’t see eye to eye on things. Mm-Hmm. . And it’s because I am sometimes waking up in the morning thinking about how my day’s gonna go.

Todd: Uhhuh . And when I go to bed, I’m thinking about how my day went. Mm-Hmm. . And when you wake up in the morning, sweetie. Uhhuh . Who are you thinking about?

Cathy: Um, well, mostly about other people. I mean, it’s not that I don’t think about myself at all. I mean, that’s dumb. Um, I do. I just usually, I usually dream about other people.

Cathy: So when I wake up, that’s who I’m thinking about. Like last night I had a dream about Cameron. So I woke up thinking about her and I, Just, I’m thinking about what everybody else needs that day, really.

Todd: So, does that mean that you’re a better person than I am? No. I don’t think so. Not at all. I’m just trying to indicate some patterns that I’m seeing.

Todd: And I, I have other male friends where it’s the opposite. Sure. Like, the woman is more, um, thinking about herself and he is thinking more about the other person. His daughter and the family and, and more sacrifice. I judge that [00:07:00] you sacrifice more for our family than I do.

Cathy: Um,

Todd: That’s, that’s what I think.

Cathy: I think that I see my life more like a team than I do as an individual.

Cathy: Yes. That’s how I would say it. I see my life as a team.

Todd: So one tiny little example of You are, because you probably wouldn’t say this because you are, you know, you don’t want to include, you know, gloat about the things that you do. But, okay, you’re constantly texting people funny stuff that you see when you’re scrolling your, your phone.

Todd: Uh huh. And you’re sending, so you just like sent a picture, I think, to Jacey. Uh huh. And it, it was a picture of a lavender dirty chai. She loves dirty chai drinks. Right. I I That didn’t register on my radar. I don’t even, I think if you would have said true or false, does JC like dirty chai’s, I probably would have said yes.

Todd: But it’s certainly not on my radar of scanning the environment. And there happened to be one of the like, you know, where we just ate breakfast and there’s like a coffee, you know, the specials. [00:08:00] Right. And I never would have said, Oh, I’m going to take a picture of this JC. You. Take a picture of things and send it to people that you love.

Todd: Uh huh. That’s one tiny example of how you’re always, not always, many of the times you’re scanning the environment of how to connect with others.

Cathy: Well, let me say that, let me say it this different. Okay. Actually, Todd, can you hand me your Kleenex?

Todd: Uh,

Cathy: yeah, sure. We podcasting problem with There you go. I feel like I need Kleenex for my podcast.

Cathy: What is that? Because I don’t need Kleenex. Other times.

Todd: I don’t know. I don’t know. Because you’re looking at yourself on the screen. I

Cathy: don’t know.

Todd: I don’t look at myself on the screen, by the way. Do you look over? No, I’m looking at my sound effects. Oh. Like this one.

Todd: And then this one. Yeah. Well, you know, that’s just like, uh, your opinion, man. You never know when you’re gonna need a sound effect. So I’m not looking at

Cathy: myself or you’re gonna need [00:09:00] Lebowski. Um, okay, so this is what I’d say. It’s less about, I’m gonna scan the environment for things for people. This is. This is what happens if I’m looking around and something reminds me of someone, I tell them, and the beauty of text is I get to tell them immediately.

Cathy: So it’s less about, let me do this, and more about if I see, You know, the thing on our table said, Oh, today’s special is a lavender dirty chai. I’m like, Ooh, that reminds me, JC, I’m going to tell her. I think that one thing I, so you remember, uh, Bronnie wears five, um, uh, regrets of people who are dying. Yeah.

Cathy: Do you remember that? Okay. So I don’t think, I don’t know if I could go through all of them for you right now, but there is this thing about. You know, telling people you love them or being with people you love. That is not something I will ever struggle with because I feel like, well, there are times [00:10:00] I do, but for the most part, the people I love, I’m letting them know it all the time, you know?

Video Clip: Yeah.

Cathy: So that’s, it’s just something that I think is, is so silly. Like, you know, Grudge holding or not talking to somebody for a long period of time or if if I mean I understand there’s toxic relationships But I got a you know, make sure people know that they may be doing that for their own Mental health and that’s fine But if we’re just trying to prove a point or we’re being mad at people or we’re just withholding our love to prove a point I don’t I think that hurts us more than it hurts the other

Todd: person.

Todd: At the risk of Uh Completely pivoting in this podcast. I’m just going to quickly read what, um, the five regrets of dying were. Just so, number one, I wish I’d had the courage to live a life true to myself. Not the others. Not the life others expected of me. Number two, I wish I hadn’t worked so hard. That’s something I, I, you, sweetie, you work super hard.

Todd: But, but I’m better at letting it go. I think I have an [00:11:00] addiction to productivity and working hard. Number three, I wish I’d had the courage to express my feelings. That’s,

Cathy: that’s the one. You’re

Todd: good at that, sweetie. Yeah. I am a little bit delayed. No, I Compared to you. Compared, but you’re good at telling me you love me.

Todd: I wish I’d stayed in touch with my friends. Yeah,

Cathy: that’s,

Todd: that’s another one. I crushed that one. You’re really good at that. Yeah. Number five. I wish that I’d let myself be happier. Yes. I can, I can use some support with that. I think.

Cathy: I feel like there have been days in the last couple of weeks where I have woken up and been so happy.

Cathy: And, and let me preface this. Someone’s new to this show. I want you to know we’ve been doing this for 14 years and I have talked about my challenges with anxiety. I have gone through Um, significant depressions. This is not a, I’m a happy all the time person. I’ve had to work really hard. Um, we were just talking at breakfast.

Cathy: I said something about me having an anxiety disorder and Todd’s like, do you really think you do? And I’m like, well, I have most of my life, [00:12:00] but what I’ve done is figured out ways to manage it. Um, And know that I have it. For example, Todd, not to get too deep in the weeds here, but like, you know, like last night, remember when I got a text and I’m like, I have to deal with it now.

Cathy: I know that I can’t put something like that aside. I have to deal with it now. I have to take it. My anxiety would never allow

Todd: you never chill

Cathy: ever. Like I know this. So I, if I get a text, I take it on. If I get a phone call, I take it on because I don’t have, and, and again, When this gets a little messy for people because I’m talking about that right now, if I went to, um, you know, if I went to a therapist, I don’t think they would say you have an anxiety disorder.

Cathy: I think I have, and I think I’m have a, um, I come, like, there’s people in my family who had anxiety and I think it, I came by it naturally. Genetically, DNA, whatever. It’s [00:13:00] familiar to me. And so I have figured out ways to deal with that, um, but that is still my thing. Yeah. Like, anxiety, the amount of anxiety I feel versus other people I think is different.

Todd: Would it be fair or unfair to say that I, my ability to compartmentalize is better than yours? Oh, I don’t think of you. Cool. Cool. As an anxious person at all. And so when I see you anxious. It’s about money and now I’m kind of letting go, I’m loosening that grip or like family stuff. Family stuff. Yeah.

Cathy: And so that’s what I mean is like, I think when you see me anxious, you know, sometimes you can laugh a little bit about it.

Cathy: Cause you know that I’m aware of what’s

Todd: happening. Well, this is tricky though, because if you’re anxious, it’s not that there’s two choices. There’s a million choices, but I’ll just break it into two choices. One is to join you in that anxiety. Right. Which seems like the. Worst idea of all time. Right. Like, can you imagine if I was as jacked up as you are with certain things?

Todd: Like, and there’s certain couples. I think we, um, I don’t know if it was Nate that we interviewed, [00:14:00] I don’t, I don’t know if it was Type A, but um, but they’re, when two, when, when there’s a couple and they’re both like similar personalities, that’s tricky. Yeah. It’s easier when we can balance each other out.

Todd: So option one, joining the anxiety. Right. Or option two, be completely dismissive, dismissive of it, which doesn’t seem like a good idea either. That’s not kind. So I try to like, walk that line in between where maybe bring a little bit of levity to it. But I can get in trouble with that if I’m bringing too much levity, cause it’s something that you’re anxious about.

Todd: So anyway. Right.

Cathy: Yeah. And, and that’s the thing is like, I don’t know. The reason why I know it’s something that is about my brain or just the way I’m hardwired in a way is that it’s my, there’s a naturalness to it for me. That’s the way I think. And, and when it becomes, um, You know, it’s why I, I do the practices I do, so I can calm down.

Cathy: I don’t say to myself, gosh, why am I like this? They’ve always been like this. I’ve always, and what does like this mean? I see through a certain [00:15:00] lens. I worry about people. I, um, my, my premonition, I talk about this all the time. Like we, you know, when we’re going on a trip or whatever, we think, well, if people die, here’s what, like, we, we go to these dark places and there’s, Um, and I know that and I know that not everybody does that and I know that I don’t have to do that.

Cathy: I know that it’s not always true. Like the thing I know through lots of therapy and lots of work that I’ve done is that My brain is not telling me truth. It’s just the first place it goes And so I can have some humor about that And I’ve and i’ve let you in on that meaning that I don’t take offense when you’re like, okay, chill Well,

Todd: and I have a good example.

Todd: Okay Um, how you and I watch sports is very different. So we watch the Iowa, um, UConn game Friday night, and this is a very typical pattern for Kathy and I, that when it comes down to the last minute of the game or the last I’d say the last, I’d say fourth quarter. Fourth quarter. Kathy gets [00:16:00] really, uh, Uncomfortable.

Todd: Uncomfortable. I So here’s, here’s what I thought about at breakfast. I love the end of the game.

Cathy: I know. You’re standing up in front of the

Todd: TV. And I feel alive. I know. Okay. But I think, here’s the thing. I think you feel alive more often in non sports watching games.

Cathy: Yes. I feel alive a lot.

Todd: I like feeling alive.

Todd: I know. And nervous. I know. And watching something that may go really, really well and I’m jumping for joy or heartbreaking if our team loses. And I, because I don’t get it, I don’t get that feeling as often as you do. That’s why I love watching sports.

Cathy: Yes.

Todd: And you get that the other 300 days out of the year when we’re not watching sports.

Todd: So why do you want to add to that?

Cathy: I totally agree with you. I feel alive. The majority of. And what I mean by that is I’m feeling a lot of things. I’m very highly stimulated by [00:17:00] emotions, by other people’s emotions. And so I’m already living on that, that vibe. I’m like, I’m riding that wave most of the time.

Cathy: So when it comes to sports, I get excited. Um, and I’m a big fan. Like I like being a fan of things, but that last, um, fourth quarter. I Especially with Iowa games, um, with NCAA, it’s been painful. Like, I actually posted a picture of my story on Friday night of me in so much pain on the couch. So

Todd: why don’t we paint this picture?

Todd: You’re sitting next to me for three quarters.

Cathy: Yes, and I’m doing alright.

Todd: You’re nervous, but you’re doing okay. I’m doing alright. You’re watching the game. You’re making comments like, how come they’re not blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I’m in. I’m in. And then it gets to the fourth quarter. Ugh. And then what did you do with the five minutes left?

Todd: Okay, well

Cathy: let’s just say this. The game that we watched in Arizona when they were playing, um, LSU, uh, we, I, no, was it LSU when they were up by? No, it wasn’t LSU. What was the game they played? It was Colorado. So

Todd: we

Cathy: were at the bar and they were up by like 15, 20, something [00:18:00] like that. And I was like, I’m fine.

Cathy: Like I can watch this all the way. I, I was still nervous, but I was like, they’re going to win the LSU game. It was rough, even though by the end, I, it was, but the game on Friday night was insane. Because UConn was winning most of them. Oh my God. And, and I was in so much pain. So here’s what I explained to Todd.

Cathy: I have a lot of, um, and I find this to be a gift. I feel a lot of my senses, right? Like I can smell things. I can hear, we were just talking at dinner last night, I was talking, telling me a story. And he told me the story and I heard it and then I said, do you hear the people next to us? They’re talking about urns and caskets.

Cathy: And he goes, what are you talking about? I go, these people are very keep talking about death and urns and caskets. He’s like, how did

Todd: you hear what I was saying? Because it’s not like you’re like, oh, can you say that again? Todd? Like you were as far as I could tell Locked in to the conversation you and I were having because just you and I there’s nobody else at the table.

Todd: No And then, and you, this is a pattern in our marriage. Right. Because you’d be [00:19:00] like, oh my god, can you believe that? And I’m like, believe what? I have no idea what you’re talking about. And you’d be like, the people at the table next to us are talking about urns and caskets. And you could have told me anything.

Todd: I have zero awareness. on what the table next to us are doing or saying.

Cathy: I know and I can hear them and also hear you.

Todd: How is that possible? I don’t know. You know a lot about listening. I think it’s because our brain’s really smart. Yeah. And it could switch back and forth, back and forth really quick.

Cathy: Yeah.

Todd: And I’m just like, I don’t care about what’s going on over there. I’m locked in on my sweetie.

Cathy: Well, and I don’t think I care. I, meaning like I’m not really like locked in. I mean, sometimes I care. So if you

Todd: could shut it off, would

Cathy: you? No. I like knowing what’s going on around me. Um, because I feel connected to humanity.

Cathy: The

Todd: people next to you? Why do you want to feel connected to the casket people?

Cathy: Um, I don’t want, they don’t need to feel connected to me. That’s not what I asked. I, I just like people. I, I’m, people are interesting [00:20:00] to me. I like people. I don’t know how to explain this. I feel like we’re all in it together.

Todd: I believe you, but you’re telling me if you couldn’t snap your fingers and ig, and, and make your brain ignore.

Todd: Mm

Video Clip: hmm.

Todd: The other tables, you wouldn’t do that? No. Why? What, what good? Because then I’m giving, then we’re giving, you’re giving me a hundred percent of your attention. I’m already giving you all of my attention. You’re giving me some of it.

Cathy: Well, let me ask this question. Do you feel like I’m not giving you attention?

Cathy: Not at all. Okay. So that’s my point is this is not, this is, can you look at this? The experience I’m having is not a, okay. For people who are, who deal with ADHD who feel like distracted, I don’t feel distracted. I’m not feeling, um, Oh, wish I wish I could hear Todd, but I’m hearing them. I’m not having a problem.

Cathy: I feel fine. I’m like, I’m experiencing both. It’s like listening to a song and hearing the drums and the guitar.

Todd: What little I know about our brains, but our brain can, whatever, Take in a bazillion [00:21:00] bits of information every second or whatever, which just depends on how much we can pay it. Like right now, as I’m looking at you, there’s also all these colors and shades and all these sounds.

Todd: Right.

Cathy: And I have texts popping up on my

Todd: screen. And I’m taking all of this in, but I’m not paying attention to it. Whereas I think you can, your brain is wired in a way where you can Pay attention to it, and it’s not a distraction.

Cathy: I hear it and feel it. So, like, you kind of talked over the last thing I said, and I’m not sure if you heard me.

Cathy: If you listen to a song, I can hear the lyrics, the drum, the guitar, and I can also feel the song. I think a lot of people can’t. I don’t think I’m special in that way. But I think you’re more You

Todd: know what, we know what I hear. I either hear the guitar or the drums. Right. You can’t hear the bass. I’m not paying attention to the lyrics at all.

Cathy: Literally. Okay, so I make this, I’ve said this before, but for our anniversary last year, I made Todd, oh, it was our anniversary yesterday, everybody, 22 years, 22 years. I’m just, sorry, distraction here. [00:22:00] Yes. And 22 is Taylor’s number and Caitlin Clark’s number and my dad’s favorite number and Manisha’s favorite number.

Cathy: It’s also just a good number. So anyway, 22, we’re already having a good year, a year in. So.

Video Clip: It feels like hipsters and make fun of our exes. It feels like a perfect night for breakfast at midnight to fall in love with strangers. Yeah, we’re happy, pretty confused and lonely at the same time. Such a great lyric. It’s miserable and magical, yeah. Tonight’s the night when we forget about the deadlines.

Video Clip: It’s time. It’s time. Uh oh. But [00:23:00] I’m feeling slightly better.

Todd: I have no idea what we’re talking about, by the way. Hey, go ahead.

Cathy: Our anniversary. Um, what were we talking about? Um, our anniversary.

Todd: Taylor. How’s our brain doing?

Cathy: I’m literally saying everything. Oh, we were talking about lyrics a little bit? Okay, I’m like, you guys, I’m not distracted.

Cathy: I got

Todd: one more. Okay, we were talking

Cathy: about hearing lyrics. And I was gonna say that I gave you, for our anniversary last year, a mix of, it was actually a playlist. We can’t do mixes anymore. You made me a mixtape? Do your mixtape. And then I broke the piece off so you couldn’t take over it. Yeah, right.

Cathy: Anyway, I made him a playlist and every single song reminds me of Todd, right? And I, you know, he’ll say, he, you haven’t really said, Oh, I like this song or that song, but sometimes I’m like, have you listened to the words to this song? He’s like, no, I don’t. So it’s not quite, quite hitting as my daughter would say it’s not, it doesn’t hit.

Cathy: It doesn’t quite hit the way that I thought it would because every song reminds me of him. Do

Todd: you want to know what, what lyrics to song I do [00:24:00] like, sweetie? What?

Video Clip: Love me tomorrow. All day, all night. You feel my he, he. Feel, feel, feel, feel my heat. I think we should repeat that again. Feel, feel, feel, feel, feel. Feel

Cathy: my heat, feel my heat.

Todd: Oh, so good. Uh, Boogie Nights, everybody. It’s Boogie Nights.

Cathy: Great. Sweetie, those lyrics are deep.

Todd: I know it. All day,

Cathy: all night.

Todd: Um, okay, I have no idea where we were.

Todd: So,

Cathy: that’s it. We were just talking about having the ability to kind of hear a lot of different things and you started it by saying you like the fact that I text people things when I think about them. Yes. And, um, and that’s, and, and you and I also talked about at breakfast. You said, do you [00:25:00] text people to get things back?

Video Clip: Mm hmm.

Cathy: Or do you just text? Because To share. To share, and I said 92% of the time, I just wanna share. Mm-Hmm. . And again, I, I’m not saying I don’t like getting a text back, but I’m not like, Ooh. But if you send

Todd: me like five gifts in a row, and I don’t like heart it, any of ’em or say thank you, then it annoys you.

Cathy: Right. Well if, if it’s like over the course of days. Right, right. It’s less about you have to love it and more about like, okay. You’re not interacting with me at all. Can you

Todd: acknowledge that I, that you, Kathy, are trying to connect with me, Todd, and if there’s no acknowledgement of even that.

Cathy: Like, say you decide not to like it or give it a heart.

Cathy: If you say to me later, you know, like this morning I sent you something that reminded me of you. It was a birding thing. The birding thing in the New York Times. And basically this guy’s like, birding changed my whole life because I learned how to meditate, meaning not. Separate from birding, but birding became a meditation.

Cathy: He actually said that he

Todd: gets more grounded when he’s birding than when he’s actually [00:26:00] sitting down on a cushion meditating.

Cathy: So I’m like Todd will love that because he, that is everything he likes. He likes birds. He likes doing a lot of things at once, like getting a lot of things done, like multitasking.

Cathy: And he also wants to be more meditative. So I’m like, this is totally Todd. So I kind of feel like, We’ve talked about this with teenagers. This is the way, like, so far today, I don’t know what time it is, but I texted JC two things, I texted Cameron three things, and I texted Skyler one thing. She’s at her friend’s, so I wasn’t, you know, it was real basic.

Cathy: If the goal is just I want you to know I’m thinking of you versus I need something back from you, it’s kind of nice.

Todd: Well, and just to be fair, not to be fair, but to be transparent, um, I don’t think I’ve texted Jaycee or Cameron or Skylar at all in like three days.

Cathy: Well, what about our family text?

Todd: Does that really count?

Cathy: Well, we have a family [00:27:00] text where, yeah, you’ve said things, right?

Todd: I don’t know. I’d have to look at it. Okay. But, and it’s not my communication tool either. Whereas it’s a communication tool for you. Right. So it’s not just about text. And

Cathy: that’s the thing. It’s like you, people listening to this are like, oh, that sounds like work to me.

Cathy: Then that’s not the way to go. Yeah. How, how is it that you connect? How is it that you connect? Like, I like to do that. That’s not what everyone should do. It’s because it’s easy to me. It’s because I am scrolling through social media Or TikTok. Like, I send JC, um, you know, texts of marmots and meerkats wearing sweaters and they, we just think it’s funny.

Cathy: And so it like gives me more reason to enjoy social media because it becomes jokes with other people. Like we were saying before, I text Jess the, you know, funny people headlines. These are just things I like to do. But for people who are like, that sounds like another thing to do, don’t do that.

Cathy: Why am I playing this song? Because we all love [00:28:00] Capybaras. I don’t, I don’t,

Todd: I think we is a strong

Cathy: thing. That song runs through my head like ten times a day. I don’t, I don’t understand it. Capybaras are rodents. They don’t live here in our country except In Grand Rapids. In Grand Rapids, Michigan where JC lives.

Cathy: Uh, she and her girlfriend just went to see them at the zoo yesterday. And she sent me, she, she FaceTimed me so I could see them. And I wouldn’t, it wasn’t them. It was one. Yeah. And he had the biggest enclosure. She’s like, mom, literally, she’s like, there’s a snow leopard who’s like in the smallest cage, cage possible over there.

Cathy: And this one capybara has this mile long area. They love their

Todd: capybaras. I think other people like Capybaras too. Um, yeah, I don’t That’s my guess. I think before you started listening to the Capybara song, I don’t think I even knew they existed.

Cathy: Oh, gosh. Just so you know. Well, they’re all over TikTok, so.

Todd: Um, so before we get on to the secret to parenting Oh, sheesh. Um, I’m going to just share with [00:29:00] our Team Zen people. We have a Zen Talk on Friday. Okay, nice. It’s Friday at high noon, central time. So if you want to ask Cathy and I a question in real time or just get some support from an amazing community, check out Team Zen.

Todd: Okay.

Cathy: Alright.

Todd: You ready for the secret to parenting?

Cathy: Ready. I can’t wait.

Todd: On their team. Ah, so you and I talked a lot happened today at Breakfast .

Cathy: Geez. Were like, um,

Todd: look at a

Cathy: whole world.

Todd: Um, you like Cameron’s formal dress, right? Okay. Yeah. Or, oh, and she wanted a, an appointment at Urgent Care Uhhuh . So, oh, yeah, I know where you’re going.

Todd: My kids are asking us for favors, right? I guess. Mm-Hmm. . And there is a. A style of parenting where you’d be like, Cameron, you can organize your day where you can do your own formal dress and you can get your own appointment at urgent care and you could make your own lunch and you could do this. And there are some parents out there like, I need to teach these kids independence and this is the way I’m going to do it.

Todd: How do you address that?

Cathy: Well, okay, [00:30:00] so we’ve got to look at this first as the binary, which is the extremes, right? The, the easier to understand.

Todd: I’m

Cathy: so passive and permissive with my kids that I do everything for them where they learn nothing and they, it becomes a codependent relationship and they rely on me for everything.

Cathy: That’s one. You know, it’s all the way at once. The other side is I basically am like I’m not going to do anything and you need to learn how to be an adult and therefore you need to do everything for yourself. Okay, so there’s this gray in between where my, I kind of said this at the beginning, the way I, I view my life is a team.

Cathy: Right? And there is, um, our family is a big team and, you know, we have friends and cousins and sisters and brothers and, you know, we have a bunch of, um, support, right? And we’re all a team together. And, and the whole goal is to work together in a way where we take responsibility for our own lives first, right?

Cathy: We can’t come into a team and be like a drag on the team. Um, and So it’s a good metaphor. I’m [00:31:00] realizing it as I talk about it, because if you are good on a team, it means you show up with something right. Someone who’s not good on a team is someone who’s like always saying more for me, more for me, more, you know?

Cathy: So if you can use that with your family, where you’re like, everyone kind of brings their own thing, which is they take care of themselves, get themselves ready in the morning, do things, bring their own dishes in. And then inside of that team, we help each other. So if my daughter, my daughter had a. Formal this weekend at Purdue with her boyfriend.

Cathy: She was gone. She had some things going on and she’s like, can you pick this up for me? Can you do this for me? And I’m like, of course, like, why wouldn’t I, why wouldn’t I help you out? You’re doing a million other things. And, and Todd and I were just talking about how sometimes people, um, I think as parents, when we get really.

Cathy: overwhelmed by our own lives, understandably been there. Um, and then we see our kids lives and we assume they’re not doing as much or they don’t understand how hard it is for us. And we get frustrated when they ask us to do things. And again, [00:32:00] I want to make sure I’m talking to everybody here because sometimes our kids are overwhelmed.

Cathy: Do ask too much and we have to set more of a boundary about what we are willing to do. Um, I was just talking to, uh, my youngest daughter about boundaries and her story is a, it’s a whole long story and it’s her own story, but one thing that I reminded her is if you don’t have boundaries, you will resent other people.

Cathy: And it’s okay to have your needs met first. Like there’s nothing wrong with that because once you do that, it’s so much easier to help other people, right? Then you like are like, okay, I have my boundaries set there in place. And if you have those boundaries over time, people learn them. Like I don’t feel like in our family and you help me out, cause I might be wrong, that people are pushing my boundaries very much.

Cathy: Um, I mean, I’m sure it happens, but there’s no

Todd: chronic version of that where a kid is just being lazy and just doesn’t want to take care of themselves. And [00:33:00] we swoop in and save them over and over and over again.

Cathy: Yeah, because like, that’s the thing is like, there are times it’s this, it’s interesting to even talk about this because I realized there’s perspective in this, that there are times that my kids say, can you do this or that?

Cathy: And I say, I have to work. I’m going to be gone. I won’t be here. And I don’t consider that a boundary. I’m just not available. Like, so there, I don’t feel bad about that, that’s just, they asked me and I had to say no, and then there are boundaries where it’s like, well, I will do that, but I can only do it starting at 12 because I have a yoga class this morning, or I’m working this morning, and, and I have to kind of set a line rather than, than allow them to dictate to me.

Cathy: So, So, I think that this idea, Todd, of supporting our kids, it necessitates a lot of understanding because if you just say, be a team and do things for your kids,

Todd: it can get messy. Misconstrued, yeah. Correct. I totally agree. It’s just like everything else. It’s gray. It’s nuanced. It’s a balance. But I think that a lot of parents, like me, at times, get caught up in like, I don’t I need to teach these kids [00:34:00] independence and I’m not going to bail them out.

Todd: They need to bail themselves out because I may not be here forever or they’re 17 or they’re 19 or they’re 21 or they’re 14 and it’s time that they learn themselves. And I, I think we usually err on the side of support. It’s funny. I just did a men living video this, this, uh, today. I send it out to anybody who, who gives us money.

Todd: And it was about the balance between challenge and support. Okay. And support is. Doing all the things. Loving. Holding space. Just blessing them. Not wanting them to be any different than they are. So like, say a man comes up and is like, I’m really having a hard time with my life partner. And support looks like, been there.

Todd: That’s tough. So glad you told me. How can I support you? How can I love you? And then there’s other times where men come in. So we can, like, we can bridge this into parenting. Sure. And they’re just in victim mentality. They’re just blaming the world for their problems. They’re blaming others. They’re blaming the weather.

Todd: They’re blaming [00:35:00] anybody but themselves. And I, that’s when my challenger needs to show up and just grab their attention and shake them and say, This is here for you. This is not about all the world circumstances that are happening. It’s just how are you experiencing this right now? And that’s challenger energy, right?

Todd: Mm hmm. So from a parenting standpoint, I don’t know how that exactly relates, but it’s this tricky balance. Because if we’re, if all we do is challenge them, that’s no good. Yeah. But if all we do is bail their butts out, right, and at the moment of anything uncomfortable, that’s not good either.

Cathy: Right. Yeah.

Cathy: And it’s, there’s such an intuitive nature to it. And I think if we’re not tapped into our own intuition, if we’re not, if we don’t self trust, so we basically rely on rules around it rather than trusting, like, you know, um, There’s a lot of parents I work with who they stick to a set of rules with their kids because it makes them feel like everything’s fair.

Cathy: I don’t have to think too much about it. Um, these are [00:36:00] the rules. Period. And there’s no intuitive nature to it. So they’re not tapping into where their kid was in that moment, what they’re feeling. It’s so, it’s so, uh, stark. Rigid.

Todd: Rigidity in your parenting style. It’s, there’s probably going to be costs associated.

Cathy: Right, because you’re not, you’re not recognizing the humanity of the situation. So I think someone who’s not in touch with what’s right in this situation, I’m just going to follow a set of rules, they are going to, I think, uh, potentially Harm some of their relationships because they’re and and so let me go back to what you just said about the victim mentality I think something that really gets in our way is cynicism.

Cathy: I think that cynicism is in Is connected to victim mentality, which is this never works out. Anyway, I don’t believe anyone will show up anyway So why bother and I think that that drives us into a victim mentality of there’s no point and we’ve all been there before like I, I try to remember all the situations where I’ve been really cynical and [00:37:00] it hasn’t worked out that way and I mean like it’s worked out better than I assumed and I try and write those things down and keep them in mind because I think cynicism is a defense mechanism.

Cathy: We’ve been disappointed so many times that we’re A, not going to put ourselves out there again and B, we’re not even going to get our hopes up to be disappointed, but cynicism has a cost too. You don’t want to be disappointed, and that’s painful, but being cynical is painful too. Because it keeps you from trying new things.

Todd: I have another secret to parenting. Forget about what I said about being 15. Okay, that wasn’t the secret? No, I had no idea what I was talking about 15 minutes ago. Okay, no secrets. The new secret, as it’s just coming to me right now, is attunement. I like that. To tune in to your kids. And figure out what it is that they need, because there’s times when they need to be challenged.

Todd: Right. Or say, hey, you got this. You can do this without my help. And there’s other times when they just need support. So my We have I have two situations. I have one I have one situation. And before [00:38:00] Write yours down, because I forget.

Video Clip: Okay.

Todd: Mine is See, a few years ago, I’m not going to name which kid, just because they may not want me to share.

Todd: Okay. One of the kids was in the car with me, and we’re at Starbucks. And she’s in the passenger seat, I’m in the driver’s seat, and we’re ordering at the drive thru. And I said, uh, whatever, give me a nice vanilla latte, whatever I asked for. And then it was her turn. And she was, um, she said it, and the person behind the drive thru microphone said, I can’t, I can’t hear it.

Todd: And, and my kid’s like, can you just say it for me? And I’m like, no. Use your voice. Use your voice. This is the parenting. It makes me want to go, yuck. Use your voice. And she started crying.

Cathy: Yeah.

Todd: Well, and

Cathy: let me preface this by saying this was a period in her life where she was struggling with a lot of things and working really hard.

Cathy: Like, she was having to use her voice all the time and she was having to stand up for herself. And it was just a tough, like, six months, right? And so she was using her voice in all these ways and then, In the most [00:39:00] simple

Todd: situation, which was All I had to do was say, give me another iced vanilla latte. But instead I said, use your voice.

Todd: She melted down and cried. Yeah. And that was, I was not tuned in. No. That was an example of me not tuning in. What is your example?

Cathy: Well, can I just say a little more about that example? So that example is like Todd is he, if in that situation, he thinks I need to teach my daughters to use their voice. So in this situation at Starbucks, I’m going to force them to use their voice and they’re going to be so grateful to me because they’re going to learn how to speak.

Cathy: and do all these things now he may not have been thinking all those things but part of that,

Todd: and

Cathy: yeah, and he, but that’s what’s ingrained like when you have a belief system. It’s full of information that belief system is like a balloon full of air now that’s not a good analogy. Um, Sometimes my visuals don’t translate very well.

Cathy: But any belief system is full of things we’ve heard, done, said. And that’s why the belief becomes a belief. Based on our experience. Exactly. And our genetics. Yes. So you were thinking you’re [00:40:00] teaching her something when really you weren’t acknowledging all the things she was already doing and realizing that was an opportunity for you to hold her hand a little bit.

Cathy: Of course. And it may not even be about her. Think about a speaker at Starbucks or Culver’s or McDonald’s or whatever. Sometimes they just can’t hear you and the person closest to it can get the order done. It’s that simple. It’s, it’s not, it’s not, not everything needs to be a life challenge. You know what I mean?

Cathy: Okay. So my, uh, one is what we were gonna talk about anyway, which is my daughter called, um, the other day, and she was very upset about something because she was supposed to get on a bus and, um, come home. And, uh, It was her first time using this bus service because we usually drive her back and forth and she’s like, I’m going to use the bus, which we’re like, great.

Cathy: And she was very excited to do this and she paid for it on her own and she did it ahead of time. And then a bunch of her friends were also coming home from school and they’re like, Hey, you should take this bus with us instead. And she’s like, no, no, no. I already paid for this bus and I’m going to do this.

Cathy: And then she had another friend who said, do you want me to give you a [00:41:00] ride part way? And I think that’s what it was, a friend offered something to her, and she’s like, no, no, no, I’m going to take this post. So she went to the bus station for And to get on the bus and they said, sorry, the bus driver got sick.

Cathy: Now this bus is leaving at six.

Video Clip: Okay.

Cathy: On top of that. So she’s like, she’s tried to handle it herself for, she called her friend who said, who had told her to get on this other bus and she said, can I come over there? I’ve got, you know, your bus doesn’t leave for 20 minutes and her friend’s like, no, it’s sold out.

Cathy: So she was so ready to come home. And so devastated because she had all these other options. So she called and she was so upset, like just let down. Can I, can

Todd: I interject on a bad day of how I would deal with that? Honey, it’s just two hours. It’s fine. It’s fine. You’ll be home in two hours. Right. That’s, that’s what I would have said.

Cathy: Mm hmm.

Todd: And I think she would have kept being upset and, and that was probably pretty dismissive. She probably

Cathy: would have said, [00:42:00] bye.

Todd: Yeah. Or, yeah, whatever. So that’s how, on a, me having a normal or a bad day, that’s how I would, I would just say, no big deal. Like, it’s travel. This is what happens.

Cathy: And I think, okay, so this is how you have to think multi dimensionally, right?

Cathy: This is like going back to what we were talking about is seeing, hearing the drums and, and hearing the lyrics and everything. You have to see the full picture. And the full picture is she had a really long week. She was not in the middle of midterms, but she had a lot of things due. Um, and it was a lot.

Cathy: And she also had to come home and she also, uh, didn’t, was not able to go with us on spring break. And my other daughters were, and so she was. It’s, you know, her academics are very important to her and she’s like, I’m not missing class. This is good stuff. But it also means then you don’t miss class and it means that you don’t do these things maybe that your family’s doing or your friends are doing.

Cathy: And she was really ready to come home and I could tell that her crying was not just about missing the bus.

Todd: And I want to just pause there. Okay. [00:43:00] That’s the big part of parenting. Yes. That’s attunement when your kids are melting down. Yeah. It’s not because they have syrup on their hands from the waffles.

Todd: Correct. It’s not because they’re, it’s a two hour delay. It’s all the other things. Yes. That happened before. Yes. And the, the syrupy hands or the bus being two hours late was the thing that kind of broke the camel’s back.

Cathy: Right. When we’ve been doing this podcast for 14 years and what we used to say when our kids were little is that we would notice that our kid would.

Cathy: You know, be doing something at school that was new, or a friend would say they were going to come over and then didn’t come over, and then they would be playing with their sister and she’d, they’d get their stuff taken away, or they had something broken, and then all of a sudden we’d be walking and they’d trip over like a rock and start sobbing.

Cathy: And a lot of parents be like, it’s just a rock. You’re fine. Why are you crying? They’re not crying about that. They’re crying about the 80 other things that I just mentioned that built up to that moment. And that’s true with adults too. And that’s true with my kid when she called, yeah, she was going to get on a bus in two hours, but she [00:44:00] also was like, She said, I’ve been so anxious all week about A, taking the bus for the first time.

Cathy: B, choosing this bus line and saying no to everybody else who gave me options. And she’s like, and it looks like I made the wrong choice. Um, C, I’m now anxious. Will this bus show up at six? Right. And it screwed

Todd: up all

Cathy: her

Todd: plans for

Cathy: that night. That night she had plans. It was this whole thing and it, it’s just a disappointment.

Cathy: So as a parent, what do we do? Do we try and talk them out of that feeling? Or you just say, Oh my gosh. That’s it. That’s it. is awful. And I wasn’t being

Todd: patronizing.

Cathy: I wasn’t being patronizing or fake. I wasn’t like looking at everyone else rolling my eyes. I was joining her. That sucks. Period. I didn’t say, but they’re starving people.

Cathy: On the other side of the world, you have no problems. That doesn’t help with that moment. That you, the whole idea of other people have it worse off or you’re lucky you can get home or that’s just, that’s us trying to say, don’t make me feel things. Yes. [00:45:00]

Todd: Don’t make me feel bad for you. I’m not going to meet you where you are.

Todd: So I’m going to protect myself and just minimize your crap.

Cathy: Or nobody felt bad for me when stuff like that happened. So I’m not going to feel bad for you. I’m going to teach you about the world. I’m going to show you reality. They’ve had enough reality. That whole idea. I mean, people still talk to me about that.

Cathy: We need to take, we need to teach our kids. You think they’re not already learning that from their experiences with the world? The world is rough. They see everything. I don’t need to be another person doing that. So. I don’t have any magic thing here. I just listened to her and she was sad.

Todd: You said that sucks about 14 times and it wasn’t fake.

Todd: You were there with her. It sucks. And I, I mean, I don’t know if I would have been able to authentically say that that sucks as much as you did. So you just have a better capacity to hold the space for whatever emotion happens to be. And I’m just like, when am I going to get off this phone so I could not Take on my kids discomfort and I can go back to whatever I was doing.

Cathy: Well, [00:46:00] the beautiful part is, is if you join them in the depths, you also get to join them in the joys, right? We don’t get to just join our kids in the joys if we’re not willing to join them in the depths. And what was interesting about that two hour period of time is she was so upset, just sobbing like, Mom, I’m so tired.

Cathy: You know, I’m so tired and I made the wrong choice and I shouldn’t have. And then I didn’t want her to walk away from it being untrusting of herself. I was like, you know what? You didn’t make the wrong choice. Things just didn’t line up exactly. Like you made a good choice and it just didn’t work out, you know, and, and that’s what sucks.

Cathy: Like, so, you know, that’s where I’ll join you. And she, you know, cried and then she’s like, okay, I’m going to go figure this out. And then she called me back and she was like, okay. So, and it was funny because the bus station closed and they were like, the bus should show up at six. And so she’s like, I don’t even know if it really will.

Cathy: Like she was sitting outside. Um, but then when it did show up, She’s like, I’m on the bus. And I was like, yes, like we had a total celebration. Then when she [00:47:00] got home, so you get to be there through, and that’s an experience of like, it was only two hours long. A lot of times when our kids have an issue, we have to ride it with them for a year or two years or, or six months.

Cathy: Like it’s not always

Todd: that simple. And what I’ll say is you. held the space for her to release, you know, emotion. It’s energy in motion. And what I probably would have done is minimize it and say, it’s just two hours. It’s fine. So she would have had to kind of bring a different version of herself up on that phone call, not allowing that energy to move through.

Todd: And I don’t know what, there’s this weird stat that says, you know, most, most emotions, uh, end in about 90 seconds or something like that. And I don’t know how long yours was with. with this kid, but if we could just hold, I call it like the tornado, there’s a tornado here. Can you be a, uh, um, an anchor, a, a, a something you can hold onto in the tornado.

Todd: Can you like hold that space while this tornado is happening, whether it’s with a life partner [00:48:00] or a kid or a boss or an employee and allow for that, to be expressed, it clears up so much quicker that way.

Cathy: Yeah. And, and I think that, um, you don’t even have to hold the space. You just kind of go into the tornado with them.

Cathy: So they’re not alone. Um, you just, you know, and again, this is. I think, I know this from Team Zen, I know this from clients I’ve talked to, there are some um, parents who have kids who spin out of control and they can’t go in there with them. Um, they have to kind of hold some stability and be like, you are going to be okay.

Cathy: Because they realize their kid is spinning in such a way that they’re not going to join them. They are going to, Todd, do you know what I mean? Like they’re, think about the stories that we hear all the time, you know, from Team Zen where they’re like, You know, my kid is calling every day saying, I want to come home from school right now.

Cathy: Um, you’re not going to do that. You’re not going to have them come home every day, especially if that’s a pattern that, you know, needs to be, Talked about or broken. Then

Todd: the hero, the [00:49:00] rescuer shows up. Then

Cathy: you’re, then it’s a hero thing. And that’s very different than what we’re talking about. There’s the, the reason why Todd and I laugh about things like here’s the secret to parenting or whatever is the amount of nuance and the amount of gray and the amount of paradox, like do this, but don’t do that.

Cathy: Even though they’re like contradictory, you know, like it’s, it’s really funky and you, this is why intuition is important because intuition is very, um, has many, many legs. Like intuition. Allows you to see multi

Todd: dimensionally. Well, and you’re saying intuition. I’m going to keep going back to that word attunement.

Todd: Attunement. And it’s not just tuning into the kid or to the life partner or to the employee. Also tuning into ourselves. Correct. So it’s, it’s, it’s a constant back and forth between what’s happening inside of me right now. Yes. I’m getting impatient. I’m getting frustrated. Can I take one breath of acceptance?

Todd: All right. Now I’m going to, I’m going to turn my attention back over to the kid. This happens like if I’m doing it right, really quickly. Like, I’m tuning into the kid, what emotions, like, forget about what they’re saying, can you tune into the energy of the [00:50:00] word, what’s underneath the words, what, how did they get to this point in their day, in their week?

Todd: So can I

Cathy: give an example for those who have younger kids? So if you’re listening to this and you have younger kids, like say you have a kid who’s really melting down and you know that they need you. That they’re like, they need that space held, they need to be held personally, they just need you to stay.

Cathy: And say you are so frustrated because you have two other kids in the other room or you had to get off a work call or just this kid is driving you crazy. Your gas tank is empty. It’s okay to, you know, and you know they need you, but it’s okay to move away for a minute, say, I’ll be right back. And like go somewhere and have a good scream or go grab a glass of water or go take a deep breath.

Cathy: And then come back and say. I needed to go take a deep breath so I could fully be here with you. Talk about modeling. Yeah, and that, and so, because that’s the thing is sometimes we’re like, but I can’t leave, you’re telling me to do this, but I need to do that. And I’m like, do it. If possible, do, that’s what I mean about multidimensional, do a multitude of things.

Cathy: And you’re not going to, it’s going to be messy and imperfect. And it’s not gonna, your kid [00:51:00] may say, but you left and you say, I know, but I knew I was coming back. I just knew I needed a breath so I could be more clear with you. So I could be here with you. And this is how we, there’s a few things you’re teaching through that.

Cathy: Like you said, your role modeling, you’re also taking care of yourself. You’re also teaching your kid that they can do the same. I mean, I guess that’s role modeling, but you are, you are not just showing them. You are saying sometimes you need to take a breath before you can be with people. Sometimes you need to go have a good scream.

Cathy: And also you need to share with that kid, this isn’t all about you. I have my own things that I’m thinking and worrying about. And you may not do this when they’re in frustration and spinning. Um, but usually at the end of a situation like that, um, you look back on it. And you’re like, wow, that was a mess.

Cathy: Everything that happened, it was so messy, but somehow we got to the end. That’s parenting. Yeah. Like anybody who’s like, here’s the secret. Here’s what you do. Here’s how you do it. Most of the time, the reason that I’m so focused on attunement and [00:52:00] intuitiveness is you don’t know what you’re going to do till you get there.

Cathy: Instead of having rules about this is what I’m going to do, have rules about I’m going to take care of myself, I’m going to attune to this kid, and I’m going to do this. And I’m going to do my best. Those are my rules. And then see how that plays out. A lot of times it plays out and it’s a cluster. And then afterwards you have to be able to have some humor about it.

Cathy: And I always felt like, When my kids were little, if there was a really big blow up like that, and I would try maybe the day, the next day, or the next morning at breakfast, and I’d be like, whoa, yesterday was rough, wasn’t it? We really struggled. And not letting that be a shameful time.

Todd: Yeah, don’t pretend it never happened, but don’t like totally go back to where you were yesterday, because you’re not yet yesterday.

Cathy: Right, like in no way would I be like, wow, yesterday you really made me mad. I wouldn’t bring up the emotion again. I would try and bring it up from some distance. Of like some time has passed and I’d be like, wow, we were really, I go, oh, I was really working hard and I could tell you [00:53:00] were upset and allowing us to have some humor about it.

Cathy: Um, I know a lot of parents say, once I get through something, I don’t want to touch it anymore because I’m afraid it’ll bring up emotions. That could be with your kid. Maybe they’ll be like, no, that’s too touchy for me. I get it. Um, that’s intuitiveness on your part. See, you’re saying, Kathy, that wouldn’t work.

Cathy: I know. So I think that. I just think that that talking about intuition and attunement are a little more mysterious and there’s no rules. Anything else before we close shot? Um, I think that was it. Oh, I know something we didn’t talk about two weeks ago was, this is just a silly throw in here, but the, the night that the Beyonce album came out, It’s called Cowboy Carter.

Cathy: I’m sure everybody’s heard about it by now. Uh, we, the, the night it came out, we were on vacation. And I, I have to say that, um, I wouldn’t say I’m not a Beyonce fan. I always have been, but I haven’t known her music the way that most people have. I, I didn’t know her albums as deep as other people, [00:54:00] and I listened to that album that morning and it was one of the best albums I had ever heard, and I, I was.

Cathy: Um, I was really surprised by how much, not, I shouldn’t be surprised because it’s Beyonce. I think I was taken by how much I enjoyed it. And it made me really excited. I was so glad that our family was together that week because we were able to play it all together while being in the pool and stuff. And, um, everybody felt similarly.

Cathy: Don’t you think? Don’t you think everybody was so down with it? Yeah.

Video Clip: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ain’t no hold them cards. Down, down, down, down, down.

Todd: I’m looking at the video. You seen the video? Yeah. Yikes.

Video Clip: Wow. Let’s just say that it’s fiance baby. Now damned if I can’t slow dance with you. Come throw some sugar on me honey, too.

Video Clip: Some real live. Again, a real swear it come down. Don’t be a bitch. Come take it to the floor now. Tornado [00:55:00]

Cathy: and, uh, let me be honest with you, I love this song, but this is not one of my favorites on the album. Like when you hear the whole album, is this the most popular song right now? It’s the one that came out earliest.

Cathy: Okay. And then 16 carriages came out and then, but I like the, I like bodyguard. That’s. That’s the one that I like the best. Um, are you gonna play it? Yeah, go ahead but keep talking. Play the beginning of it. I want people to hear it. It’s so good. But anyway, I just wanted to share that because I wanted to talk about it two weeks ago and I forgot and um, you know, I just have such an appreciation for someone who can um, Um, be in so many genres and sound so good and have such an understanding.

Video Clip: Oh, that’s a Beyonce song, everybody.

Video Clip: So sweet, I give you kisses in the backseat. How good did that sound? Kisses in the backseat. You make [00:56:00] me cry, you make me happy. Happy. Let’s take on a cigarette. Sounds so good. Uh,

Todd: yeah. And I don’t listen to a lot of Beyonce music, but it is a very catchy album, let’s just say that.

Cathy: And there’s all this like, there’s like, you know, introductions, like Dolly Parton does an introduction to Jolene, and Willie Nelson does an introduction.

Cathy: And they also like have some duets too, but there’s all this like, There’s information in between songs, you know, like the Linda Martin thing where she comes in and talks about genres and then they jump into another song. It’s so, it’s an album, like, You know, we, while we were on vacation, we got into a big talk about, my girls are aware that albums used to be more of a thing, where now singles are a thing, but they didn’t experience it the way we did.

Cathy: Like, when I liked a song in fifth grade, sometimes if it was popular enough, you could get it on 45, but most of the time you had to go get the whole album. And then the album had a story, right? I feel like I’m talking to a generation that knows this, but [00:57:00] every song there was like some kind of continuity, you know what I mean?

Cathy: And you like heard a story. What do you have now? I mean, the wall is a huge one, but there was always a story. That’s how I felt about this album is I was like, every song, there was like some kind of intro to it where I’m like, Oh my gosh, this is so powerful. Yeah,

Todd: they’re, they connect the dots between the

Cathy: songs.

Cathy: Yeah. And like, and Blackbird is on this song. Um, you know, on this album, on this song, sorry, on this album. And Jolene is on this album. So there’s some, you know, covers as well. And they’re so good. And, and there’s, it’s just really rich and deep. And, and I, I’m sure a lot of you have already heard it, but if you haven’t, uh, give it, don’t just listen to a song.

Cathy: Start at the beginning and listen. Listen to the album. Listen to the album.

Video Clip: He changed the [00:58:00] lyrics a little bit.

Video Clip: Don’t take the chance because you think you

Cathy: can.

Todd: What did she change?

Cathy: I think it’s like a difference in like, the Dolly Parton version, it’s more like, please don’t. Yeah. Like, I’m scared. And this is more like, please don’t. Don’t you dare. Yeah. I think there’s like a tone change. A little more power. A little more power.

Cathy: So anyway, um, I just, I really wanted to mention that before because I noticed there’s a lot of talk about Beyonce album and you know, about genres and like only certain people can be in certain genres and it’s so dumb. Whatever. Like come on everybody. Like artistry is artistry. There is no, when you’re putting those blocks up of you can only be pop or you can only be country or you can only be, it’s so silly.

Cathy: Artists. Artists need to expand and try new things. That’s what artistry is.

Todd: You know what I say to that? What? Stop

Cathy: it. And not to mention, [00:59:00] the woman is from Texas. Give me a break. Yeah. Give me a break. Give me a break. I sure deserve it.

Todd: I sure deserve it. All right. Uh, Zen Talk this Friday. We got, uh, Women’s Group on Team Zen next Wednesday, John Duffy a week from Friday.

Todd: But not on our show. Only on Team Zen. Only on Team Zen. You have to join Team Zen. Sorry for all you podcast listeners and non Team Zen people.

Video Clip: You’re missing. Team Zen. Yeah.

Todd: Um, but if you want to check out Team Zen, just, uh, scroll down on the show notes and check it out.

Cathy: We have a lot of music on this show.

Cathy: Oh, I like it. Yeah,

Todd: I’m sure you do. Um, so let’s just play our bumper music. All right. As I do that, I’m going to say thank you to Jeremy Kraft. Uh, he’s been supporting us from, since the very first episode, painting Chicagoland area. So if you’re doing any type of rehab work or painting around your house, give him a call 630 833 7000.

Todd: 956 1800. Keep truckin everybody. Oh, go ahead. No, no. Oh, okay. Bye everybody.[01:00:00]

Cathy: Don’t shut down. Zoom.

Todd: Oh, don’t, I’ll stop it.

Video Clip: Stop recording.