Todd: [00:00:00] Here we go, my name’s Todd. And this is Cathy. Welcome back to another, another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 780. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding. And always remember our motto, which is that the best predictor of a child’s well being is in fact a, bless you baby, still, it’s not out yet, you won’t come.
Todd: It’s the worst. I don’t like it. Sorry about that. Is a parent’s. It won’t come. Self understanding. Um, quick, quick side note. My sweetie, when she has to sneeze, you give yourself a fake sneeze to bring up the real sneeze. Correct. I think that’s, I think that’s not common.
Cathy: Oh, well, I don’t know if it is, but it’s just [00:01:00] the way I do it.
Cathy: So my body knows it can do what, that thing. This is how we do it. It’s like giving it a little bit of a tutorial.
Todd: That’s right. Um, all this
Cathy: pattern.
Todd: So, um, we’re recording on Labor Day. We usually record Monday mornings and we’re recording at dinner time the night before the podcast goes up. So we’re in a little bit different state.
Todd: So if you’re like, Hey, what’s up with Todd and Kathy? It’s because we’re just a little off. Our normal
Cathy: routine. Well, you’re apologizing
Todd: for us before we’ve even said anything. Well, it could be better for all
Cathy: I know. Yeah. So it may not, they may not notice a difference at all. Yeah.
Todd: Maybe not. Yeah. Um, so I want to talk about your Zen Parenting moment.
Todd: Okay. And then a few other small things. What do you have?
Cathy: Uh, I wanted to talk about the, um, seven, seven patterns in, uh, couples that keep them healthy.
Todd: Seven patterns of couples that keep them healthy. Or
Cathy: that, that they [00:02:00] stay together. All right. Um, and honestly, it’s kind of like, Where I found it, I first saw it on Lewis Howes page, and then I kind of traced back where he got it and it kind of comes from a little more of an opinion than I think then based on research, because I just want to be fully, you know, transparent.
Cathy: But I would love to talk about the examples they give, because I do think they’re relevant. But as far as this This research based? I don’t know.
Todd: So this isn’t, uh, John Gottman. Right,
Cathy: this isn’t like the Gottman Institute did research and they found these things. Like this is more like what couples therapists tend to notice as far as why the couples they work with make it or don’t.
Todd: But first, real quick, I, uh, I’m on the newsletter for a guy named Richard Reeves. He’s an author, excuse me, he wrote a book called of boys and men, why the modern male is struggling, why it matters and what to do about it. I’m a big fan of his work. Um, and I figured out that he wrote like a, a children’s book for like, you know, Younger men.
Todd: Like, I don’t know [00:03:00] exactly what the Explain that. You said a children’s book for younger men. No, I mean there’s color. It’s like a picture book. So it’s for children or it’s for men? No, no. I think it’s for children. Okay. So
Cathy: we call them boys.
Todd: Yeah. Well, young men. Oh, grade levels. 3 to 7. So it’s for 3 to, uh, 3rd grade to 7th graders.
Todd: Um, and it’s called Yes Boys Can. And when I first saw this, I’m like, okay, do we need a book about what boys and men can do? Cause I think we have a lot of those books called, you know, history and things like that. But then upon further research, I realized that it’s all about, um, biographies of 50 fascinating men past and present that represent the underrepresented fields of health.
Todd: Education, the arts and literacy.
Cathy: So basically to just sum it up, it’s jobs that women tend to do.
Todd: Think jobs. Yeah. As they call them.
Cathy: [00:04:00] Yeah. And so they, they have. There’s certain work in our society that has been feminized and often not valued because there’s a belief that women should just do it.
Todd: Yeah. And I was just delighted that, um, I think we need to bring more attention to these types of jobs, teaching, education, arts.
Todd: Um, so I’m just, I’m grateful that he’s doing this. And I think we as a society have a long way to go to make these jobs cool. And. You know, how much cooler can it be, like, teaching children? That’s kind of awesome. Well,
Cathy: cool to men, so, because they are very cool to women. So this isn’t a, uh, you know, not all genders agree with that.
Cathy: And I think that that is, it, it’s harmful in that these jobs tend to be caregiving jobs in their, in whatever capacity, social workers, teachers, nurses, um, you know, um, these jobs where you’re actually taking care of people in society and we need more men doing that. You sure do. Um, because we need, not only are there jobs [00:05:00] available to them, because there’s a lot of like, there’s no jobs for men and there actually are.
Todd: There are, they just, we need the men to say that these jobs are for you. And they’re like, no, my job is to go work in the plant and use my muscles. Right. Like, no, let’s use your emotional intelligence because there’s jobs out there that are desperate for, um, everybody.
Cathy: Right, and we’re very much generalizing and speaking in broad strokes, like obviously not every man is like, I need to work in a plant, but there is this belief that they should have this certain trajectory.
Cathy: The man box. Yeah. When, you know, I do love to see though, I think, um, there, I’ve seen a lot of men as they’ve gotten older, go back to teaching, you know, like they started on one trajectory and they’re like, no, now I want to get my degree in teaching or they do go into some kind of service industry or like, you know, even some older men.
Cathy: Um, you know, like when my mom used to have to take, um, she was at a, a nursing facility for a while. So, you know, they would, um, take them in like a van or like a service vehicle if they had like a [00:06:00] hospital, you know, they had to go somewhere. And there were a lot of times men who were driving the cars who would help the elderly people into the bus and out of the bus.
Cathy: And you come to find out that these men are retired. And this is like. They’re second. This is like their new job.
You
Cathy: know, they retired from their previous jobs and now they’re helping elderly people and they’re really good at it. And that’s wonderful. So, you know, but they could have been working in this industry even earlier.
Cathy: We need, you know, as I, I, I did tell Todd though, cause I started teaching, um, my college class last week and I typically have two guys in my class and I have 20 people this semester and this semester I have like five. It’s wonderful. It’s wonderful. So they are not sociology or criminology majors. They are business majors, computer science majors, but they’re still in my class.
Cathy: So I’m grateful. So to your point, who’s the author, Richard Reeves?
Todd: Richard Reeves. And then the co author is Jonathan Juravich.
Cathy: So is this a book to buy for [00:07:00] boys and like, or is this a book, like what, who is this for? Um, is this for Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Todd: Grade level three to seven, reading age, eight to 12 years.
Todd: 112 pages.
Cathy: So if you have young men in, in your family, this is some young boys in your family, this is something you should get for them. Yeah. All right.
Todd: Um, and I’ll just include the link in the show notes. Um, and then I was, I stumbled, speaking of men, uh, I just stumbled across some lists of who, uh, let’s say adolescent boys look up to from a ma, a masculinity standpoint.
Todd: Okay. All right. Some of them are names that we’ve heard, but I just want to read them off to you. You ready? Sure. Uh, The Rock, obviously. Still? Yeah. Okay. LeBron. Kay. Michael B. Jordan. Kay. George Clooney. Okay. Timothy Chalamet. Okay. Ryan Reynolds. Mm hmm. Kumail. Nanjani. Yes. Mm hmm. Jeremy Allen White. Okay. Jacob O’Lord, is that how you pronounce his name?
Todd: O’Lordy. O’Lordy. He’s the guy [00:08:00] from, uh Euphoria. Euphoria. Paul Mescal.
Cathy: Yeah, he’s my new favorite.
Todd: Pedro Pascal. Mm hmm. Charles Melton. I don’t know who that is.
Cathy: He was in May December with, um, uh, Natalie, Natalie. Ambruglia. No. Merchant. Natalie Portman. Oh. And Julianne Moore. He was the kid. You know, it was that, you know, that she had, she was a teacher and she had gotten together with her student story.
Cathy: They say that it was not based on the real story, which was, what was her name? I was obsessed with that story for a while. Anyway, but he’s the kid in it. He’s her husband. Um, Andrew Garfield.
Todd: Austin Butler. Uh huh. And Tom Holland.
Cathy: Yeah, sounds, I was actually gonna call, I was gonna, when you started with The Rock, I was gonna be like, this is outdated, but the last five you said, I can,
Todd: I believe it.
Todd: Okay, you ready for your Zen parenting moment? So wait a second,
Cathy: that list, where did you get it? And, and this is who, [00:09:00] who looks up to these people? Like, is this like
Todd: celebrities? No, no, they, they, they pulled a bunch of random, Young men like in like high school. Oh, oh. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Cathy: I’m, I’m surprised that there weren’t other
Todd: people
Cathy: on
Todd: that list.
Todd: Well, I’m sure, I mean, I, I didn’t get the expansive list, so I’m sure there’s more names thrown out there, but those are the ones that they had in the little clip. Okay. All right. I’ll, I’ll take that. That’s good news. Are you ready for your moment? Sure. So you wrote a Zen Parenting Moment. You do it every Friday.
Todd: If you haven’t yet subscribed to Kathy’s Zen Parenting Moment, you got to subscribe to it. It’s free. Um, it’s a short read, but super impactful. This one is called Keeping It Real for Ourselves and Our Kids. And I just want to read a sentence or two that I think captures the essence of your blog. You ready, sweetie?
Todd: I’m ready. Uh, uh, Substack instead of blog. Sorry, Substack. I know.
Cathy: I have to practice this as well.
Todd: Um, you talk about how sometimes our parents have, feel, we, we feel overload, um, and And our kids can like [00:10:00] tune into our energy. And you say, we don’t have to pretend to feel good all the time, but we also need to demonstrate an ability to take care of ourselves.
Todd: And we do that by role modeling, but this was my favorite sentence. We need to practice striking a balance between not burdening our kids with all our history and pain and not keeping secrets that confuse and shut them out. So I just think it’s interesting. I think every family has, um, a history. And some of the history is fun to talk about, and some of the history is not so much fun to talk about.
Todd: And I don’t know if we’ve ever even done a podcast on this topic of like, how much of our family history baggage do we let our kids know about? Yeah. And I think the answer is it depends. But I just think it’s a really super interesting thing that you brought up, and I just wonder what brought this on and what thoughts you have about it.
Cathy: Yeah, I think that it’s always finding that place in the middle. I remember, um [00:11:00] You know, I’m thinking of a therapist that I used to follow and, you know, she would always talk about if you don’t, like, family secrets are toxic because there leaves a vacuum for a lot of, there’s like an open space where people put a lot of stories in there and when there’s secrets, there’s assumptions made and there’s like, Um, fear about it and there’s like avoiding topics and there’s all this space to create a story or to feel like you are being left out on purpose.
Cathy: Um, and at the same time, when your family tells you every single thing that’s going on in your family and all your history and everything that’s ever happened to anyone, that’s quite a burden. Especially if you’re not.
Todd: It freaks some kids out. Yeah,
Cathy: you’re not old enough. So it’s this place in between of, you know, doing your best to not have.
Cathy: Family secrets, like I’m not saying you need to like share every single thing that’s ever happened, but is there something that could eventually affect your kid and to be cognizant of that, that maybe over [00:12:00] time, it’s something you want to share in a child developmentally appropriate way. For example, in our family, there is definitely, um, you know, issues with alcoholism, right?
Cathy: And this is something we’re aware of. So, as the girls were growing up, you know, and your sister was really helpful at this because your sister’s been in recovery for a long time. She openly talked to the girls about her experience and in a, in a way that was appropriate over time without sharing every single story right away and just kind of explained her, you know, her steps that she took.
Cathy: And so then by the time the girls are at an age where drinking may come into their world, um, There’s no big bomb that we have to drop like, hey, alcoholism is in our family or anything like that. It’s something they already know. They can ask questions. Um, we talk about it openly. And so you kind of, you know, you bring that in without creating this fear and guilt around it.
Cathy: You create a conversation around it and you, you tell something matter of factly rather than in a fear based, something bad [00:13:00] is going to happen to you way. And you, Tell them things to look for, red flags, challenges, things that they may not, you know, um, how it’s, you know, in their first experiences with drinking, if they have them, like, what does that feel like?
Cathy: What is it? Does it make you, you know, what’s your experience with it? Like, let’s talk about this because let’s recognize red flags before this becomes an issue. And I mean, that’s just one example of so many other issues that, because our kids, they know, I think I said this at some point in there, when we’re trying to hide things, they know.
Cathy: They feel it. They don’t know what we’re hiding, but they know something’s being hidden. And when we dump too much on them, they often like push it away. Like that’s,
Todd: yeah,
Cathy: that’s too much. So I don’t, I don’t know if I’m doing a good job explaining that. I think it’s
Todd: a really hard thing to explain because it is a.
Todd: Depends on the situation, depends on the age of the kid, depending on the severity of whatever the family history is. But I just think it’s, you know, once again, I think [00:14:00] if us parents can keep the, the discussion in front of us, like, is this something that, that we should share with our kids or is this something that we probably shouldn’t burden them with?
Todd: As long as you’re having that conversation either with yourself or with your partner and make an informed decision, then I think you’re doing a good job.
Cathy: Yeah. And, you know, and it just depends, like there were some decisions I made when the girls were really little, like, you know, I had a miscarriage when they were really little and I, you know, explained to them and the most matter of fact way you know, what had happened and that, you know, in a child developmentally appropriate way, like I didn’t give them lots of details, but here’s what happened.
Cathy: Here’s why I’m crying. Here’s why, you know, something I told you about, if this isn’t going to be, this baby isn’t going to come. And, you know, and allowing them to have an emotional experience about that and having it be all out in the open. And not having to pretend or hide or create some story that won’t make sense to them five years later.
Cathy: They’ll be like, what was that [00:15:00] story? And they’re, and so I also don’t, part of the reason that I’m not a fan of family secrets is because oftentimes there’s a lot of shame in it. And so I feel like the more open we talk about things that happened, happened in our family or happened. Historically in our family, um, the less shame there is around it.
Cathy: You just talk about it more matter of factly. And the more that we learn from people in our family, mistakes they’ve made, challenges, things that were unexpected, divorces, addiction, the more we keep it open, the more we can have, our kids can ask us questions. Like I can’t imagine a thing that, and again, our girls are so much older now, but I can’t imagine it.
Cathy: anything that they couldn’t ask us. Now, I’m not saying they don’t, that they want to always ask us. I’m just saying that I don’t think there’s anything we’ve like kept a lid on that they’ve been like, Ooh, that’s untouchable. We can’t, we can’t ask that question.
Todd: Well, we’ve been doing this podcast for a long time.
Todd: And I feel like at the end of the [00:16:00] day, all we’re trying to help parents do is figure out how to continue to have conversations with our kids about these things in an appropriate way. Um, so it’s all about not discipline, not always teaching your kids. Can you create a space where we can have conversations with our, with our children in an appropriate way?
Todd: So the reason I bring up conversations, cause my sweetheart is finishing a book right now. I’m done. Right. It’s just not ready yet. Oh God. I see. It’s ready in January. Yeah. Um, and it’s called. Restoring our girls. Messy conversations.
Cathy: Uh, it’s actually, it’s called, um, how to have real conversations with our girls, um, and how to, how it helps them with their teen challenges and how it helps them remember how much they matter.
Cathy: Yeah. Because I think a lot of these, the lack of conversations, Sometimes drives home a narrative to our girls that they’re not valued, or that they’re only valued based on appearance, [00:17:00] or that if they’ve made a mistake they’re no longer valued, or if they’re not achieving enough, or they’re not being what they think they’re supposed to be, that all of a sudden they’re, they feel purposeful less.
Cathy: That’s not a word. Purposeful less. No. They feel non purposeful. They don’t feel like they have purpose. There you go. I was making up words. Yeah, don’t overthink it. I know. They were, so basically they, there’s this ability to have ongoing conversations with our girls where they can see, we can like just having a talk about, you know, one of the biggest conversations that I talk about in the book is just what society tells girls and women to be and how there’s, Truth in it, but how we also then have a choice about how we process that truth.
Cathy: Is it real? Like, yes. Does society love to have females look a certain way? And then that’s true. But do we have to do that? Do we have to accommodate all of that? Can we accommodate Part of it that we love. Can we be, um, different? [00:18:00] Can we, you know, and it’s like those kind of conversations, you understand how this gets to the core of our girls recognizing that they matter because what they then realize is that who they are.
Cathy: is enough and that what they feel like is best for them is what they want to go toward and that they belong regardless of what society is telling them they should be. And that’s just one small part. I mean, conversations are the key and you don’t have to have answers. It’s not about have all the answers to their questions.
Cathy: That’s not it. The book is not how to have answers. It’s how to have conversations. Right. Because there’s plenty of things I’m saying to my girls. I still haven’t figured this out. But I am willing to talk about it. And the more I talk about it, the more, you know, So
Todd: it’s a little early to be able to pre order, but probably, hopefully sometime soon.
Todd: So just put that on your radar. So now we’re going to transition over to the seven things.
Cathy: Okay, let’s do that. Um, uh, I’m laughing because I just got a [00:19:00] text that one of our girls needs a Venmo. We have to Venmo them something. Can they wait
Todd: till after the podcast? Of course.
Cathy: No, I stop it now. But just funny because when you have kids at college, a lot of times there’s Venmo ing that occurs.
Cathy: Um, let’s see. Do you use Venmo, Todd, or do you use Zelle?
Todd: Uh, I use it all. I’m actually very old school. I usually ask somebody for their PayPal.
Cathy: Wow. That is old school.
Todd: But I do it all. I think Venmo is one that gets asked of me the most, whether it’s kids or, you know, I loan, you know, I pay for golf with a buddy, Venmo’s me or I Venmo him or whatever.
Todd: It’s
Cathy: just so easy. And Zelle’s pretty easy too, if you have it on your phone and everything, but it’s not quite as easy as Venmo. I just think it’s been wonderful for, you know, it’s made my life more convenient. Anyway. Couples. All right. So like I said, these are things that I think are more someone’s observations versus somebody’s data, but I found it pretty interesting [00:20:00] and pretty on target.
Cathy: And I thought maybe we could process them, um, because we’ve experienced all of them. Number one, couples that tend to make it had boundaries with their own family.
Todd: Okay.
Cathy: They put the relationship that they had first and had clear boundaries with their bio family. They didn’t vent to them about issues or make decisions based on what their families wanted or what their, yeah, they did what was best for their partnership.
Todd: Got it. So I think what you’re saying is that there are couples out there, and probably we all have done this at one point in the past, where we choose our family of origin over our partner. Correct. And what you’re saying, what this, and this isn’t science, this is more conversational. A strong couple understands the balance between boundaries with your family of origin and, uh, and bound and, and how you connect with your significant other.
Todd: It’s funny as I, as I’m kind of like reviewing that when I’m with my clients, my, my, [00:21:00] dads and husbands, I am always trying to invite them to say to their parents, because sometimes their parents are trying to, are over involved, over involved, trying to get in the way between him and his wife or his partner.
Todd: And I’m like, You know, some language I sometimes give to them is like, Hey, mom, dad, you did not raise me to not take care of this family that I’m co creating. So, um, with love, I’m going to set this boundary, and I’m actually going to go with my partner on this instead of going to your vacation. I’m just making something up.
Cathy: Yeah, and sometimes it’s not, you know, Todd’s giving an example using language that you may be saying in your head and not out loud. You don’t have to be like, I’m going to set this boundary right now. But there is a sense of like, Um, I’ll take what you’re saying into consideration and then I will talk this over with my partner.
Cathy: Like and, and to not feel that your, your family of origin, especially if you come from a [00:22:00] very opinionated, opinionated family of origin, they’re going to have things that they think you should be doing, right? And that may, you may be like, yeah, it was this way through my whole childhood. So why do you think they’re going to be different when you get married?
Cathy: That’s just kind of the way that’s, or, or partnered or living with someone. The, you know, and I’m going to use the therapist. I always have to say the other extreme version. Obviously, if you’re in a toxic relationship and people are trying to help you and get out of it, that’s one thing, but if you are in a relationship that for the most part is pretty healthy, And you know that your parents or whoever have lots of opinions that end up hurting the relationship between you and your partner, then you definitely need to figure out how to differentiate.
Todd: Well, this talks about we’ve, we did that podcast years ago about having your loves in order. Um, this is one of the things, one of those things where you gotta, for me, when I’m doing what I When I’m doing it right, quote unquote right, that’s when my [00:23:00] loves are in order. And there’s times when I get distracted and I’m like, no, my love for my paycheck or my work is more important, or my love for my dad or my mom or my grandma is more important.
Todd: Um, and it’s at the expense of who I’m living with, which are my wife and my kids.
Cathy: Right. And that’s why, like, I don’t know the average age of who listens to this podcast now. I don’t know if, you know, Parents with young, young children who are maybe more recently partnered and have only been together for a few years, but this takes practice and it’s not going to be perfect right away.
Cathy: Like there, it’s this, when you get married or partner and have children, that’s a huge shift. And it takes practice to realize where my alliance is here. You know, this is where I need to put my energy now. You know, there were, uh, Plenty of things that Todd and I ran into really early that I really struggled with.
Cathy: Like Kim, our first one that really was hard, and we weren’t even married yet, but we were living together, was you wanting to go with your family to [00:24:00] Eric’s graduation and I graduated on the same day. So I was graduating with my master’s degree and my dad was in the hospital My mom was not available because she was with him and I don’t I think my sister was gone I don’t remember but I was like, can you come because no one’s gonna be there and Todd’s like well I have to go with my family to this thing because that’s what we do Right, and that was one of the first I think I mean, I think I was upset but I wasn’t like I didn’t give you the silent treatment about it, but I was so disappointed.
Cathy: Oh yeah. And that conversation then opened the conversation to where are we? Are we, are we a team or are you still, you know, and then from then on, it’s been an ongoing conversation. And it’s not always been on his side. I’ve had alliances too, you know, where I’ve been like, no, this is what we have to do because this is what my parents did
Todd: versus, well, and just throw in Thanksgiving and Christmas and all that other stuff.
Todd: What’s number two?
Cathy: Um, well, and let me say this, my daughters now, because they are, you know, have had experiences in [00:25:00] partnerships and, you know, choosing about where they’re going to go. different times. They’re like, I can’t believe you have to choose where you go when you’re partnered for like holidays and stuff.
Cathy: I’m like, I know it’s brutal and you get used to it over time, but that’s what I mean about when you’re initially starting out. And for those of you who are divorced and are starting a new relationship or in a new relationship, you have to then do that again. So it’s, it’s a lot of work, but boundaries is number one.
Cathy: I think
Todd: not to beat a dead horse, but, um, I think like holidays is an easy. I think that’s a great avenue to have this conversation because you do have to decide between, hey, I just want to have my family Christmas with my partner and my kid, and that’s it, which, which you should be able to do. And it’s gonna hurt this set of parents, or that set of parents.
Todd: It’s almost you got three different boats you’re trying to manage. You got your, your, your mom and dad, You have your family that you’ve co created with your partner, you have your partner’s family, and then you have your family, and it’s highly charged and is a [00:26:00] recipe for some interesting conversations.
Todd: Yeah,
Cathy: and I think that keeps going, because once you have kids, then everybody wants the babies around, or they want to see the teenagers, and so all of a sudden it’s like, because I remember we had kind of, Split it up, like, it was, um, my sister got married like 10 years before me, so she was already spending Thanksgiving with her husband’s family, and so that was a really good, natural, um, You know, my parents already had other plans, right?
Cathy: So I’m like, I’ll always do Thanksgiving with you. And then for Christmas, we always went to Florida. So I’m like, and then you come with me, but your mom loved Christmas. So that was really a hard, it was not, we, we had, we had a hard time figuring that out. And so, you know, you have to play with different ideas and you have to keep, as long as you realize it’s we figuring this out, not me against you.
Cathy: Yeah. That, that, I’m not saying we did that perfectly all the time, but that was what it always came down to, is are we doing this together or am I trying to win?
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: Cause that’s totally different.
Todd: [00:27:00] Number two.
Cathy: So number two, uh, that, things that keep couples together is that they’re friends. So that’s really easy, um, if you marry someone who you genuinely like, um, sometimes people, if they get married early or partner early, they often.
Cathy: are in a partnership with someone they feel passionate toward or feel really attracted to and they forgot that liking them is important.
Todd: Yeah, because the infatuation, um, I don’t know what word you want to use. Sexual attraction. Sexual attraction, um, I don’t know how to say this without getting in trouble, but there’s a dissipation.
Todd: Like when things are new in a relationship, it’s also new. That’s why it evolves. Yeah. That’s why the beginning of a relationship is so easy. Yeah. Cause you’re not dealing with anybody’s baggage yet. Um, but as you mature as in a relationship, it gets super tricky.
Cathy: Well,
Todd: yeah.
Cathy: And I kind of just feel like, especially during arguments or disagreements, if you’re friends, then that means you like this person.
Cathy: And so your intention is not to. [00:28:00] Except when you’re really frustrated to hurt them or harm them in some way, or again, to win, you know, but if you are in a relationship that is super passionate and volatile and sexually charged and all of these things that can feel good, maybe initially, Um, oftentimes you don’t really like the person you’re living with.
Cathy: It has all those elements, but as Todd said, those kind of dissipate over time, especially after you’ve had kids and your focus becomes different. And all of a sudden you’re like, do I like this person?
Todd: Yeah, I feel like friendship is the foundation in which to build something on. I think sexual attraction is a tough foundation to build something on.
Cathy: Well, ideally, Both are happening at the same time. It’s not like you’re choosing one over the other, because I, I mean, I was attracted to you. It wasn’t like I was like, well, I like him. Right. You know, like it’s, it’s, it’s, it ideally is both, which is a good, um, indicator that you’re heading in the right direction, that you like this person.
Cathy: You have to be Ben and Leslie from Parks and Rec. [00:29:00] I like you. And I love you. Yeah. You have to, it has to be a little bit of both. Um, number three. Okay. So, um, number three that you, couples who made it had been through really dark times together.
Todd: Yeah. I would say that that is, that’s when you grow, you grow during the dark times when it’s Disney world and everybody loves each other.
Todd: I don’t know how much, um, solid foundation is, uh, is available when things are going well. So like, you know. Yeah. People don’t learn when things are going well. People learn when they’re challenged.
Cathy: And you have to choose it over and over and over again. You choose it. Like, I remember the, um, very early on, again, we were just living together.
Cathy: Maybe we were engaged and, um, I was really, really, really sick. And when you’re really, really sick, you know, you start to, it’s not like I was looking really good. Let’s just say that. And I was sick for like a week. And I remember being like, It was awful. And I [00:30:00] wasn’t, I didn’t have a lot of humor at the time, but I remember being like, well, I’m just letting it all out there now.
Cathy: And if we, if he like, you know, once I’m well, and we get back to where we were before that, that’s great because he’s not seeing the best side of me right now. I was really sick and you were taking care of me. And that was hard too. Like you, that was an issue that came up where you were like, wait, do I, can I go out with my or do I need to take care of you?
Cathy: And these seem like. It’s almost like the family of origin thing. It’s like you become these shifting patterns of being part of a family or a friend group and shifting into a partnership. And then you just keep choosing that over and over.
Todd: Well, and it’s funny, I think you said dark times. Is that what you said?
Todd: Um, And it can be the dark times, like, you know, miscarriages, that’s, those are some really, really tough times. But something a little bit more normal than miscarriages would be your first trimester when you were pregnant, you felt like you were hungover for three months. It’s awful. It’s tough to live with a [00:31:00] person.
Todd: I’m sure it’s tough for the person to feel like they’re hungover for three months. It’s harder. A ton of self correcting. It’s harder for you. Right. And it kind of sucks when your partner is sick for three months. I know. It totally sucks. Or like, just normal conflicts, like, that is when we grow together, when we can navigate these, you know, miniature versions of these dark times, which is like, I say something that hurts you.
Todd: Like, how do we figure that one out?
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: And
Cathy: dark, you know. Death, loss, chronic illness, miscarriages, um, you know, money issues, um, losing friendships. These are things that we, in the middle of it, are often like, oh, how, how is this going to resolve? And then every time it does resolve, or your children’s issues, you know, like, The divorce rate when, you know, when there’s a child that has significant issues or challenges, or if there’s death of a child, it’s higher.
Cathy: Yeah. And I, and I don’t like that [00:32:00] stat, but there, there can be more conflict. Sure. There can be more difficulty helping each other because you’re doing everything you can to stay up for, you know, stay here for yourself, you know, um, and take care of everybody else in the process. And so, you know, once you’ve been through those things and a number of times, you start to recognize this is, this is solid.
Cathy: There is a strong foundation. And I know things can still happen, but again, it’s one of those indicators. That a lot of times when people have been through a lot of things, um, you know, and especially if they’ve been able to get through it with some seriousness, but also some levity, you trust each other, you know, uh, number four, um, they let each other be themselves.
Cathy: So there’s like a base level of respect, admiration, and you don’t really have this desire to change them. You just want them to be free. Yeah.
Todd: Um, I feel like that’s like, duh, but I know that that’s [00:33:00] not how all couples interact.
Cathy: Gosh, no. I think more commonly when I’m talking to women, they want to ask me how to change their husbands.
Cathy: And I, I get it. Cause sometimes it’s, they’re not getting the respect they deserve. And sometimes they’re not feeling they’re getting help when it comes to things like emotional labor and invisible labor. I get the request. But the interesting thing is, is the more we can allow. Um, our partner to be the more we respect and understand who they are and what they’re doing, the more they give us that same respect.
Cathy: And then the more comfortable we feel together because we realize we both want each other to be free. The reason why I’m saying this with such trepidation is I realize in a relationship where some of these other things are not happening, there is no respect. There is no admiration. It is not a level playing field.
Cathy: It is, um, there is not equality. This is a hard ask. You know, it’s hard to ask for this, but the really the bottom line, let’s take all those, you know, obvious real world [00:34:00] issues out where someone can be, um, disrespectful to you and you’re trying to, you know, you’re not going to allow them to be that way, you know, you’re not going to be like, well, you get to be free and say anything you want to me.
Cathy: That’s, that’s not what we’re talking about. What we’re talking about is that who your partner is inherently, the things they like to do, the clothes they like to wear, the things that make them happy, the things that. You know, that they feel pulled toward. Do we support them in those things? Or do we make fun of those things?
Cathy: Do we try and change them? Do we tell them how to look different? Do we, are we trying to make them a certain way? Or are we trying to allow them to be who they are? And this is the truth with our children too. It’s really no different. Which is why, you You know, when Todd and I talk about things on this podcast, it’s, it’s universal principles.
Cathy: It’s not just parenting principles.
Todd: Didn’t you have, um, a previous relationship where the partner wanted you to dress certain ways and all that?
Cathy: And would buy me certain clothes. Yeah, really
Todd: [00:35:00] controlling. Mm
Cathy: hmm. Because there was an image of this person thought that. someone that he was with needed to uphold for him.
Cathy: And so there was this, this belief. And also there’s a lot of control in that too. Like how much can I push this person? You know, there’s a lot of red flags in, I’m going to make you be a certain way just because I want you to be, you know, regardless. But these are not, These are not great. Now, if you said to me, pick out a shirt for me, I’d be like, sure, because you asked for my support.
Cathy: I’m not saying we have to say, no, no, I have no opinion about this at all. But there is a, sometimes a making fun of or a discomfort in our partner and who they are and maybe what they like, because we’re trying to maintain some kind of coolness, um, for lack of a better word. And instead of being like, no, this is who they are.
Cathy: And this is kind of fun. And. This is, you know, and I appreciate who, who they are here to be.
Todd: There you go. What’s next? [00:36:00] I
Cathy: feel like I did not do that well.
Todd: Well, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of tricky. Um, yeah, the example that I threw out that you had experience with was, um, you know, somebody who was trying to mold you into something that you didn’t feel comfortable with.
Todd: And as partners, we want them to feel free to be whomever it is that they want to be.
Cathy: Yeah. And if there’s something that they’re like, I like, it can be very simple. It can be things like they like reading. True crime. And you’re like, you shouldn’t like reading true crime. ’cause true crime is this. Why do you like this?
Cathy: You, you watch The Bachelor. That’s awful. Why do you do this instead of kind of reveling in it with them? You don’t have to like it too, but you’re like appreciating this person. You know? Or
Todd: maybe see, I appreciate you and all your cultures. Thank you. Every single one of ’em. Yeah,
Cathy: but I even though you.
Cathy: Sometimes, you’re not going to watch it with me, but you’re not like, I’m so disappointed in you. You’re not like, I don’t. I’m not disappointed
Todd: in, you know, the, you know, like the bachelorette thing or
the
Todd: black bachelor. Uh huh. [00:37:00] Uh, I, I tend to think that those shows are a little dumb.
Cathy: I understand.
Todd: And you and the girls wanted to watch it.
Todd: So I got into it. And I, you know, it’s like, I can’t, it’s like candy, right? Like, cause there’s drama and it’s easy to get engaged. And at the same time, it’s not something I would choose to do without you guys wanting to watch it.
Cathy: Right. And that’s what I was going to say is I really do believe because like I said, I have two girls at college and they, Have bachelor nights where they watch with a group of people.
Cathy: It’s not about, I mean, some people watch it all by themselves and love that, but there’s something about connecting and having conversations about people’s relationships and dissecting what people say to each other and then bringing in our own life situations. It’s a, it’s community building. And so I really do think the reason that, that, uh, that the bachelor and the bachelorette has It’s a water cooler kind of conversation, even though we don’t really have water coolers anymore.
Cathy: So it’s like, if you are [00:38:00] not up on this, then you miss some of that pop culture. And some people are like, that’s fine with me. I’m never going to watch it. That’s fine too. But it’s an example of like when the girls, it’s just something for us to Conversate about what is,
Todd: um, so you watch all the cult shows, Uhhuh and I don’t watch them.
Todd: What is your version of that for me? Like why are you watching that stupid show?
Cathy: You like to watch nature shows and weather shows and planet shows, and I’m not interested in that. Uh, and that, and you like to watch about Milky Ways and galaxies and you like to know. The chimps and what they need to do.
Cathy: And you just like that. I just think that that’s all great stuff. And it’s, it is interesting. And sometimes you’ll share a part with me and I’ll be like, Oh, that is interesting. I just am not drawn to it. So when you pull up your YouTube stuff, it’s a lot of Neil deGrasse Tyson. And it’s a lot of like, you know, it’s more science based.
Cathy: And I will, if you hear something interesting, you tell me. And, and if I have a pop culture thing that [00:39:00] I’m like, this is really interesting, I tell you.
Todd: The best is at the end of the night, sometimes you put on, I don’t know, threads or Instagram or whatever they had, and you get an algorithm that’s really funny.
Todd: So good. And you know, we can’t. Kind of explain to the audience why it’s so good because it’s all randomized based on what you watch. But there’s some funny stuff that people throw at them. People
Cathy: are so funny on the internet and they’re so, they so tap into, Todd’s point is like, once you get on an algorithm with a certain humor, you It just goes on and on and on and on, and they’re hitting what we think is funny.
Cathy: Because some things that people do, I don’t like. Like, you know what I mean? Like not, not everything hits me the same way.
Todd: Right. Um, okay. Let’s, what’s next?
Cathy: Um, they, so this is the most important one. We’ve already talked about this on this show is that couples that stay together have difficult conversation.
Cathy: They communicate regularly, open to each other’s perspectives. Um, they don’t cope by avoiding or denying things. Okay. And [00:40:00] then they were able to emotionally regulate so they could continue the conversation. I think this should be number one.
Yeah.
Cathy: Um, I think this is the most difficult thing. My girlfriend and I were just having this conversation this morning.
Cathy: We were talking about a family that she was telling me about. It’s a long story, but there’s a lot of issues going on with their adult children, and they keep trying to, you know, Ask the question. What do I do about this kid? What do I do about this kid? And I’m like it at this point with their child being the age there.
Cathy: It’s not about just this child Yeah, it’s a family issue and there’s probably a bunch of things that haven’t been discussed. You know, I know that there was a divorce There was a lot of things and there’s been a lot of like we said at the beginning a lot of gaping holes Conversations that have not been had.
Cathy: A lot of secrets. A lot of like, don’t look this way, look over here. And so now this kid is having like behavior issues as a young adult and everyone’s like, how do we get him under control again? And the, and what sucks is the only advice is you have to start having conversations about these difficult
Todd: things.
Todd: Well, and you know, [00:41:00] without knowing anything more about this person, it’s a family system thing. Exactly. It’s so much easier to be like, Oh, what do we do with this troubled kid? Like, No, you were a part of this. You’re, you’re part of the corner that you painted yourself into and you’re part of unpainting yourself out of it.
Todd: It’s not just about this kid.
Cathy: Correct. Like everything that’s going on in our family, we all have a role in the dynamic. It’s not about, We’re all, you know, let’s all blame each other and feel guilty and shameful. It’s just we all play a role in whatever dynamic is playing out. And we all have to recognize how each of us can shift.
Cathy: You know, um, I think this was a Terry Real thing where he said, you know, when we talk about relationships and we’ll say, we need to fix this relationship. And no, we don’t need to fix the relationship. We each individually have to focus on ourselves and figure out what we’re bringing to the relationship.
Cathy: Because the relationship is not a [00:42:00] thing. It’s what we two people are bringing at the same time. So it’s a very, it’s like an individual effort. Right. I can tell it’s like a Monday and I’m not working today because I like. Can’t come up with my words. But like that’s the same thing with parenting is it’s like it’s not one kid and that one kid is the problem.
Cathy: There’s a familial dynamic going on and that is keeping this this situation in place. If it be that they are the black sheep or the person who is you know saying the truths that no one else will say or You know, yelling at one of the other kids because they feel that they’re being treated unfairly or that someone is being treated unfairly.
Cathy: And there’s a dynamic at play. Yeah. And so we have to have a conversation about what’s happening and why rather than say, kid, everything that we’re struggling with is all your fault.
Todd: Boom. Um, all right. Uh, two more.
Cathy: Six. Um, and this one is kind of interesting because it says they fought. Number six is they fought.
Cathy: That’s how they stayed together. Um, but I like the description better than that [00:43:00] word. They got on each other’s nerves, sometimes frustrated with each other, but they knew how to navigate it, bounce back, move forward. So couples, you know, I’m always really careful with words just because I think sometimes when we say fight, it can bring up people’s childhood memories about what fighting really looked like.
Cathy: Sometimes it was emotionally abusive, physically abusive, and the women that I talk to sometimes don’t like that word. Um, and so I’m not using it because I have, it’s, it’s, you know, It does make sense sometimes. You do, you do fight. Um, but you can also just say you have disagreements. You speak your, your mind.
Cathy: You, um, express your opinion. Yeah,
Todd: fight is such a, um, umbrella term. Right. It can mean so many different things. Right.
Cathy: And, and this is something that I think is really, I would rather change this one to, um, we know how to navigate, gate, gate, gate. conflict and share our perspective. Like, because that’s something that I run into with women all the time.
Cathy: And I know you’ve told me that [00:44:00] men say the same thing, the men you work with, is that women are oftentimes not interested in sharing their opinion or their perspective because they don’t want to disappoint anybody. They don’t want to get into an argument or they would just much rather say whatever you want to do.
Cathy: And they don’t want to open up a can of worms that they’re not quite sure where it’s going to go. And so sometimes their opinion, not only is it, you know, it’s not shared and therefore not valued. And so then again, there’s, I kind of think about this as a communication thing again.
Todd: Well, and I would say, um, you know, they fight, I would put it differently is they have a healthy.
Todd: experience with conflict.
Cathy: Yeah, yeah.
Todd: And they’re not afraid of it. Because fighting could be from this like really closed defensive place and that doesn’t get you anywhere. But if you can kind of lean in and see how you are part of it or you know conflict is such a huge topic but yeah as long as we can [00:45:00] Resolve conflict in a healthy way that, yeah, because if you’re just avoiding conflict at all costs, it gets pushed down and it simmers and it comes out something
Cathy: else.
Cathy: Yeah. It just goes in. And I will say that, you know, I have a partner who tells me, has told me all the time for 20 years, how he doesn’t like conflict and it makes him uncomfortable. And, you know, he doesn’t, he’s like, how do we resolve this? So we never have this conflict again. And so if you, That doesn’t mean then we shouldn’t have conflict, and I think that’s something you know, you’ve known now for years and years, but there tends to be one partner, sometimes both, who’s like, I’m so uncomfortable with this, and so we’re trying to accommodate their discomfort versus this is something I need to ask, say, share, and there is a practice in getting uncomfortable with difficult conversations.
Cathy: Like we just taught this class, um, last week. And one of the, you know, I think there’s, you know, we were talking about how some people are like, well, you just deal with this issue because you’re better at it. Or [00:46:00] you know how to bring up difficult conversations. I don’t. So you just do it more. And the bottom line is.
Cathy: It’s just the nature of the language. It’s a difficult conversation because it’s uncomfortable. And I’ve always been very, um, historically frustrated when people are like, well, you’re lucky. Well, I am lucky because I have Todd because Todd’s an amazing man.
Todd: We’re both lucky.
Cathy: Yeah. I don’t want to be like, no, he’s not.
Cathy: But people, there’s this assumption that Todd just doesn’t create anything that necessitates a conversation about conflict. And I have always been like, Hey, I’m the one bringing these things up. And so I don’t necessarily need a pat on the back, but I also want people to see our relationship as not being like you’re just easygoing all the time.
Cathy: We have difficult conversations all the time. And so there is, you know, I want everyone to recognize that, that counting how many difficult conversations you have doesn’t equal, Oh, we must not be right for each other. I mean, unless they’re contentious and they’re unresolved and you know, you can’t navigate it very well, [00:47:00] but sometimes the ability to share with each other.
Cathy: It actually then ironically decreases them because all I need to do, Todd already knows this bothers me or, or I already know that Todd needs something and I shouldn’t, you know, if he needs to go swim or go for a run or something like that, that’s something he needs rather than me saying, why do you always need to do that?
Cathy: Because I know he needs it. Um, we’ve had enough difficult conversations that we’ve figured these things out.
Todd: That’s right. We’re better at it now than we were many years ago. But
Cathy: they’re still
Todd: uncomfortable. Yeah, we could sidestep some landmines that we couldn’t two years into the marriage. Um, and there’s probably landmines that we don’t even know that are coming that we’ll step into also.
Cathy: And I especially want to say that, you know, and again, depending on your personality, I’ll speak for women for a second. Some women, they do bring up a lot of conflict and there is issues around attention and just depending on their personality and their history, they have a different way of communicating conflict.
Cathy: And then there is also this [00:48:00] pattern, more cultural, societal pattern of we don’t want, as women, we don’t want to rock the boat. We don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable. We don’t want anyone to not like us. We don’t want anyone to think we’re difficult. We don’t want to be, you know, when Harry met Sally, high maintenance.
Cathy: We want to be easy going, a cool girl. And so a lot of these things get in the way of being able to speak what we think is most important. And I feel like my childhood challenge of not speaking what I needed, I now have. work that out in adulthood. Thank goodness with Todd is a good partner. And it’s not like I have an issue every day.
Cathy: Like I also don’t want to act like we’re doing this all the time, but I think I can say something like, I don’t want to do that, or this bothers me and we handle it right away. And I hope he does too. Um, I know he does because we have conversations.
Todd: Last but not least, sweetie, number seven.
Cathy: So, uh, they make light of each other’s quirks.
Cathy: So appreciating, acknowledging quirks, even if. At times these quirks are annoying, um, [00:49:00] and not being hypercritical of each other.
Todd: Yeah. I would just say approach everything through a lens of levity.
Cathy: Yeah. Yeah. Have fun. Don’t take
Todd: things so seriously.
Cathy: Like I like to make fun of when Todd uses mouth tape to sleep and then he has Sweetie, don’t knock until you try it.
Cathy: I know, but I don’t wanna try it. It scares
Todd: me. Some people don’t know what it is. It’s you literally tape your mouth shut so you’re forced to breathe through your nose. Mm-Hmm. for the entire night.
Mm-Hmm. .
Todd: And when you breathe in through your nose, it conditions the air in such a way that it doesn’t through your mouth and you get better sleep.
Todd: Your oxy, your body and your brain gets more oxygen. It’s a wonderful way of sleeping.
Cathy: Creeps me out. Yeah, I get it. And I think it’s actually called hostage tape.
Todd: So the whole well There’s like five different brands hostage tape is the best one
Cathy: Yeah, because it
Todd: doesn’t I have to like shave because if I have a beard or whiskers then it comes up easier But yeah mouth tape
Cathy: and you know He makes fun of me for the things that I do
Todd: like you’re a little four by six blanket We my four by six blanket.
Todd: She got a little blanket. It’s [00:50:00] not big enough for her body, but she swears that it’s It’s
Cathy: like a, um, what’s it called? Like a whoopee. It’s yeah. It’s like, it makes me feel warm. It does work. It provides warmth, but it also just, it feels like safety. So anyway, that is Team Zen. You know, being able to, there’s like a difference between wanting someone to be different and acknowledging they have quirks and having a sense of conversation or like, you know, humor around it.
Cathy: Um, that’s how I think you and I handle all those annoying things that we, each other does is we just kind of say, we make fun of it. And, and I, I don’t think we get too offended.
Todd: Can I play a clip from Mr. Mom? Sure. Where he’s talking about his woobies? Sure.
They are terrific, but pretty soon a woobie isn’t enough.
You’re out in the street trying to score an electric blanket, maybe a quilt. And the next thing you know, [00:51:00] you’re strung out on bedspreads, Ken. That’s serious. That’s
Todd: one of the best movies of all time. I love Mr. Mom.
Cathy: Trying to score an electric blanket.
Todd: Can I have a few moments to myself? That’s what he says next.
Todd: Okay, so here it is. The seven things. Boundaries. Boundaries with your family of origin. You are friends. Correct. Dark times. Been through dark times. Let each other be themselves.
Cathy: Let each other be free in being who they are.
Todd: Difficult conversations. Uh, they fought. Yeah. So they have conflict and then they make light of each other.
Cathy: Yeah. Yeah. And these are, again, they are all practices. Yeah. They are things that on our best days we’re doing very well. And sometimes one of these things can get, not go well. Someone may make fun of something that Is not ready to be made fun of yet, or maybe someone is asking for more or not [00:52:00] asking for enough.
Cathy: Like, it’s a practice. They’re relationships. Um,
Todd: a few promotional pieces. Uh, we have, uh, we are interviewing John Duffy a week from Friday, Friday the 13th, with Team Zen. And then we’re actually going to upload that Zen Talk to our, yeah, aren’t we? Cause we’re gonna make the announcement too. We’ll Okay.
Cathy: I, I feel like we haven’t worked through this, but I’m trusting you on
Todd: this one.
Todd: Go ahead. Yeah. So anyways, if you want to check out Team Zen, just click on the show notes. Uh, it is a community of amazing parents. Kathy and I do these Zoom meetings twice a month amongst many other things. Uh, and then we sometimes have special guests like Dr. John Duffy, which we’re to do on Friday the 13th.
Todd: Um, and then don’t forget about Jeremy Craft. He’s a bald head of beauty. He does painting and remodeling throughout the Chicagoland area. And, uh, his website is abicoh. net and his, uh, phone number is 6309 56 1800.
Cathy: So I hope, I know I was a little rambly because it’s a Monday. I [00:53:00] haven’t worked for three days, but hopefully it made sense and everybody had, um, a good day off yesterday.
Cathy: Cause you’re listening to this probably on Tuesday and, um, we’ll see you soon. Keep trucking.
