Navigating Parenting Milestones: The Real Journey

Introduction

Welcome to another insightful post inspired by the Zen Parenting Radio podcast, where hosts Todd and Cathy explore the intricate world of parenting. In one of their recent discussions, they delved into the concept of milestones—those key developmental markers that often dominate parental expectations. Throughout their conversation, they highlight the importance of understanding that each child’s growth path is unique and doesn’t always align with societal benchmarks. Here’s a deeper look into how to navigate these pivotal moments in your child’s life.

The Start of Milestones

From the very beginning, children’s development is often marked by a series of anticipated events—crawling, walking, talking, and entering school. However, Todd and Cathy emphasize that these milestones are not rigid timelines that every child must adhere to. For example, one child might start walking on their first birthday, while another might not walk until they are 15 months old. The hosts encourage parents to recognize that these variations are normal and remind us that growth is fluid and individualized.

Individualized Growth

One of the key points Cathy brings forward is the idea that milestones are highly personal and closely related to who each child is. What may be a significant achievement for one child might seem trivial for another. Todd reinforces this by pointing out that while parents might have their own perceived trajectory for their children, the children themselves follow their own unique paths. This understanding helps shift the focus from comparison with others to appreciating individual growth.

Parental Influence and Support

Through various personal anecdotes, Todd and Cathy illustrate the importance of gentle parental support over coercion. For instance, when their daughter JC was nervous about joining a new lacrosse team at the age of 14, Todd chose to support her by simply being there rather than pushing her to go it alone. This approach shows that sometimes, a little support is all a child needs to step into their own independence.

The Role of Gentle Nudges

Cathy also talks about the need for gentle encouragement, especially when a child is dealing with anxiety or discomfort. One of their children experienced significant school anxiety, which required a variety of supportive strategies to help her re-engage with school. This narrative underscores the delicate balance between pushing a child too hard and providing the support they need to navigate challenging situations.

Milestones in Adolescence and Beyond

As children grow, the nature of milestones evolves. When children enter adolescence and young adulthood, they face new milestones such as navigating high school, going to college, and entering the workforce. Todd and Cathy highlight that during this time, parents often only get snapshots of their child’s experiences, making it crucial to trust in their child’s ability to manage their own journey. They stress that it’s important for parents to be supportive without imposing their own timelines or expectations on their children’s developmental milestones.

Redefining Milestones

Todd and Cathy encourage parents to rethink the conventional definitions of milestones. Rather than adhering strictly to societal standards, parents should focus on what achievements mean for their child’s unique growth. This approach not only creates a more supportive environment but also helps children feel more validated and understood.

Conclusion

Navigating parenting milestones is less about meeting standardized timelines and more about supporting each child’s individual journey. Todd and Cathy’s insights provide a comforting reminder that milestones should be tailored to fit each child’s unique growth pattern. True success in parenting lies in the deep connection and unwavering support we offer them.

For parents concerned about their child’s progress, it’s beneficial to take a step back and reconsider their expectations. The hosts suggest engaging in meaningful conversations with children about their readiness and comfort levels, rather than strictly adhering to conventional milestones.

Through patience, understanding, and genuine support, parents can help their children navigate their unique paths confidently. So, continue to support your child’s growth journey in ways that honor their individuality and watch them thrive.

[00:00:00] 

Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 780, no, 79, so the big 7, 7 9. Uh, while listen to Zen Parenting Radio because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is that the best predictor of a child’s wellbeing is a parent’s self understanding. On today’s show, sweetie, why don’t you go ahead and tell them? Just in case I don’t. We’re going to talk about milestones. Milestones. Let me write that down. A little, like, um, You’ve had three different ideas for today’s show. The first one was you don’t want to be so serious.

Todd: You want to do something fun. And then you said the difference between what we [00:01:00] want versus what we do. And then as we were coming downstairs, you said, we’re going to talk about milestones. So you’ve had three different ideas. 

Cathy: Things happen and then I change my mind. 

Todd: All right, so what, what is, what do you hope the listener, uh, ends up as a result of listening to our podcast?

Cathy: Because I want to expand our ex, our expectation or definition of milestones a little bit and also just talk about why they’re milestones, you know what I mean? Like what, what experiences we have with them personally, like when we have reached them, but you know, because this is a parenting podcast, more about our experiences with our children’s milestones and.

Cathy: Also, like I said, repetition here, expanding that idea, because I think a lot of times we have an expectation of how milestones should go, and that our kids have to do this thing, then this thing, then this thing, when really, milestones are really, um, 

Todd: Incremental? 

Cathy: No, they are [00:02:00] related to who your child is.

Cathy: Aha. Like a milestone for one kid. may not be like a huge milestone for another kid. 

Todd: Milestones are individualized. 

Cathy: I think so. That’s kind of, I see it, every person has different milestones. Like something that’s hard for me that I do is not a big deal for you. So we wouldn’t, and again, I know we’re going to veer away from the literal definition of milestones into people who, um, I want milestones is like the big picture, but the, the more, um, more like detailed picture is like how certain things for certain people are difficult and certain things for certain people aren’t.

Cathy: And depending on who you are, you may have a certain life trajectory that doesn’t include certain things that people would call milestones, but we can make this trajectory fill a All of milestones, if we see it a certain way. 

Todd: Yeah, when I heard you say milestones, I figured you’re talking about kindergarten.

Cathy: I am. 

Todd: High school graduation. I am. And all the, [00:03:00] oh, you are. 

Cathy: I am, but that’s what I mean is like, that’s the, that’s where we’re going to start, but then let’s dive into how they become, like, for example, I’m just going to throw this out there. I don’t want to jump in too fast, but I want to start, but I wanted, like, for example, a milestone for me.

Cathy: I was living by myself. That may not be a milestone that A, other people think is a big deal, or that B, some people even do. Some people go straight from their house, their home, maybe to college, living with roommates, to getting married. Well, 

Todd: it’s so funny. I was in a, um, I was at father daughter weekend, and there’s a man who chimed in who’s getting a divorce, and he’s like, and he just moved into his apartment.

Uh huh. 

Todd: And he’s like, I haven’t lived by myself. Ever. 

Wow. 

Todd: And he’s like a 58 year old man. Yeah. Like, cause you know, parent, you live with your parents, you go to college and then you find buddies and then you marry somebody and he’s never lived by himself. [00:04:00] 

Cathy: So that’s a perfect example of we have a life trajectory that we have all kind of agreed to and we even get a little crazy and start putting age, ages around it.

Cathy: Like at this age I’m going to do this and at this age you should do this. Even like. Let me throw another one out there. Like a kid who takes a gap year or maybe needs a few years before they actually go to college. So, but a lot of times we’re like, oh, at 18 you should be in college and doing this when really maybe a kid who’s 20 or 21 is better off going to college or vice versa.

Cathy: A kid who graduates early from high school who’s like, I’m ready to go to college. So, The milestone still happens. It just happens at a different time. This is why, like, milestones isn’t just that word isn’t going to capture everything we’re talking about. Yeah. It’s just the on ramp 

Todd: to the discussion. 

Cathy: We have to talk about what just happened before this started, though, because The spider?

Cathy: Yes! Just give me, like, three minutes. Go ahead, sweetie. Okay, so our podcast office is in the basement and [00:05:00] anybody who has a basement knows that the little critters live in the basement, right? I’m cool with it. It’s where they are and I’m pretty good at vacuuming down here when I am active down here You know, my office is down here.

Cathy: We’ve got the podcast office. So, you know, that’s good because they do good things, right? Oh, love, love what the critters do. Meaning they eat, you know, little, uh, smaller critters. Yeah. Like big critters 

Todd: eat the small critters. 

Cathy: Right, exactly. Um, so that’s good. I’m laughing at texts that are showing up on my page.

Cathy: Cause it’s like, I’m one of my children was just having the best day and is now having the worst day and I just, it’s parenting, it’s parenting. But anyway, can 

Todd: I just play some critters voice and laughing sound effect? 

Cathy: Oh no.

Todd: Judy. That’s what the critters are saying to you. 

Cathy: Actually, those are not the critters that live in the basement. The critters that live in the basement do not have voices. 

Todd: Oh, probably not. Because 

Cathy: they are insects. 

Todd: Yeah. [00:06:00] 

Cathy: So, I went to pick up my earphones, and sitting on top of my earphones was a spider.

Cathy: Okay, which is kind of like, ah! It was a little like, It startled me, right? I, I don’t think of myself as someone who’s afraid of spiders. So I, I know I have moments where if they’re really big, like we saw a really big one in Seattle that I was like, that’s, that’s beyond. Yeah. 

Todd: That was a big, that was big.

Cathy: So I saved the spider and put him in a web closer by where we are, which was good. He like crawled up the other web. So I didn’t ruin his home. And I said, kind of like flippantly, like I should just like, Clean, you know, put my finger around these earphones just to make sure there’s no eggs or something in here.

Cathy: I did it twice and I was like, Oh, we’re good. And then all of a sudden, a spider crawled out of the ear and bounced. 

Todd: So what do you think would have happened? It would have crawled in my ear! And then what 

Cathy: would have happened? I don’t know, but it scares me! And it makes me, it sends shivers down my back. 

Todd: You would have flipped out.

Cathy: I just, oh 

Todd: god, it’s just, [00:07:00] remember Isn’t there a bunch of, like, uh, what are they called? Wive’s Tales? Where they, the spider goes into your ear 

Cathy: No, no, no, no, no, don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t tell the story. I don’t want it. Good news is 

Todd: I don’t even know the story. 

Cathy: I know, but you were going to tell a story I don’t want to hear.

Cathy: There are two things that I have seen that I’ll never forget. Number one is Wrath of Khan, where that’s how they tortured people. Remember that? I don’t. Ricardo Montalban was Khan. I remember him. Okay, crawled into it. Don’t want to talk about it. And then that movie with Claire Danes and Kate Beckinsale, where they are, they get, they’re traveling abroad and then they’re, some guy puts drugs in their, Um, bags.

Cathy: And so they get arrested and they go to prison in the country that they’re in. I can’t remember what country. And Kate Beckinsale gets really sick because something crawled into her ear and lived there. 

Todd: It’s a, that’s a bummer. I call that a bummer. 

Cathy: So I don’t want that to happen in the podcast office.

Cathy: And that’s all. I want it to happen outside the podcast office. [00:08:00] It just, it’s so, and Todd, let’s just talk about something that we haven’t discussed. Let’s do that. Okay. I feel like we already talked about this, but I’m going to do it again. Started the summer with cicadas. Cicadas. Everywhere. Yeah.

Cathy: Everywhere. Yeah. The amount of, if you live in the town I live in, because I know not everybody in Illinois got these cicadas, like people 30 minutes away are like, we had none of them. My town, Elmhurst, got millions of them. My yard had millions of them. Dealt with it, swept them away, let them live, you know, as we should.

Ewww. 

Cathy: Um. 

Todd: That’s, that doesn’t do justice. They’re louder than that. 

Cathy: They’re so loud. Cause it’s, that’s one cicada. 

Todd: Yeah. There’s like a million of them. Let’s see if I can find it. But 

Cathy: it wasn’t, it’s not the sound. Everybody always talks about the sound. The sound doesn’t bother me. That’s summer sound. I’ve had that since I was little.

Cathy: It’s the amount of cicadas that were everywhere. You couldn’t walk anywhere, right? Yes, that’s summer sound to me. That doesn’t bother me. [00:09:00] They were everywhere. They were being born. There were shells everywhere. It was chaos. Finally gone. If we haven’t talked about this already, I’m telling you now. Now, there are mites everywhere that eat cicada eggs in the tree.

Cathy: And because we had the 17 year cicadas and the 13 year cicadas, plus just, you know, good old annual cicadas, the mites are everywhere and you cannot see them. They’re microscopic and they bite you. And you can’t feel them bite you. You don’t know they’re biting you. And so what happens is you’ll go outside, go on a walk, sit outside, whatever.

Cathy: It takes 10 hours, 10 to 12 hours for the bite to show up. So you don’t even know when you got bit. Like it takes that long for it to explode. And when I tell you it’s a bite, It’s like a mosquito bite times three. Times three because it’s so swollen and so itchy and it has all these weird iterations that are gross, like all these phases.

Cathy: We have not been 

Todd: [00:10:00] outside for longer than 10 minutes in three weeks. 

Cathy: Well, that’s not true. Oh, sorry. You and I take walks. 

Todd: We’re, we’re not outside the way. We should be outside. 

Cathy: We’re not outside the way we were outside because I’m definitely outside more than 10 minutes at a time. You are too, right? 

Todd: Well, I’m just thinking of the times when we sit in the back and for hours fill out for hours.

Todd: That hasn’t happened in three weeks. 

Cathy: That has not happened. And it’s been such a bummer. And Todd and I both and all of our neighbors and everybody were around, we all have, might bites all over us. And, and that’s gross. And so sometimes I’m like, bugs don’t bother me. You know, mosquitoes, whatever. You know, flies, I can’t stand, don’t get me started about flies, but this whole cicada mite situation this summer was a real buzzkill.

Cathy: That’s all I have to say. It was just, it was a, it took a little, oh God, don’t, I can’t stand flies. 

Todd: I just, I feel like we need to do an intervention with you with flies. I feel like there’s some childhood regression analysis we should do. I don’t like flies, but [00:11:00] you are, I’ve never seen you with such, uh, vitriol, I don’t even know what that word means, but let’s just pretend I do, towards the flies.

Cathy: I know. Is 

Todd: it because they come from poop? 

Cathy: No, it’s not. Is it because they make that sound? It’s because they mess with me. They fly by my head and zoom by my head, and they try and get close to my ear, and then they do circles and circles and circles, and they go up and down and up and down, and it hurts my eyes to follow them, to figure out where they’re going.

Cathy: Then, then. They land inside the blinds where I can’t get them, or they land on my cup, on the rim of the cup, so I can’t hit them. Or else the couple would be knocked over. They’ve got my number. 

Todd: And what is your, uh, procedure for eliminating these things? I 

Cathy: have two things I do. 

Todd: Okay. 

Cathy: Well, no, three. Number one, you land on the door or a window, I let you out.

Cathy: Yeah. Like, I, first step, do no harm. You’ll try. Yeah. I, [00:12:00] that’s my ideal situation, right? Number two, a towel. I’m really good with a towel. Like a dish towel. A dish towel. Watch out if I have a dish towel. I’m pretty good, right? Mm 

Todd: hmm. You’re very good. You’re better than me at it, for sure. 

Cathy: Number three. This one’s rough.

Cathy: Hairspray. 

Todd: Okay. What does hairspray do? 

Cathy: It, it freezes their wings. 

Todd: Oh. 

Cathy: I know. It feels a little more cruel. But if they’re flying in circles, and here’s the thing, during the day, I’m a little more chill. What are you listening to here? Oh,

Cathy: no secret, sweetie. Is that song called The Fly? It’s, yes. So Bono gets it. Um, I don’t know what the words are to that song, but, um, whatever. So that’s it. That’s just my bug thing. [00:13:00] So we’re hoping I have no spiders in my earphones and that there’s, there’s no flies in the podcast office today, so that’s good.

Cathy: This is good. They, okay, last thing. Yeah. When we go to bed at night, if one comes upstairs, and I feel like this is like a really intensive fly time because it’s so hot out, you know what I mean? It will zoom by my head, unless we get it. So I’m like awake, you know what I mean? I 

Todd: do. I do. 

Cathy: Do you, but you don’t seem affected like I am.

Todd: This is a little clip from the fly, these, oh, we don’t want to. 

Cathy: No, that movie is so disgusting. Disgusting. Disgusting. Okay. I don’t want to hear him turn into a fly. It’s my nightmare. 

Ears fell off. 

Cathy: Oh, he’s scared, sweetie. Enough, enough. Stop. I don’t want to hear Jeff Goldblum turn into a fly. And Sheena Davis is in that.

Cathy: She sure is. And I think they were [00:14:00] dating at the time. Oh, interesting. A little eighties trivia. Okay. So. That’s it. 

Todd: Can we move on to milestones? 

Cathy: Now milestones. Okay. So starting over here, the two, you know, as you said, let’s talk about the typical milestones. We have, so we could go, we could go really deep dive here.

Cathy: Like, you know, when your child rolls over, when they walk, like some of these milestones are huge in terms of making sure your child is developing in a way that is typical. Sure. I, when I had little kids though, I struggled with that too because, you know, like, you Let’s check walking. JC walked on her first birthday, which is weird, but it was actually at her birthday party.

Cathy: Cameron didn’t walk till 15 months. And Skyler walked somewhere in between there. I don’t even remember. Third child, sorry baby. Third 

Todd: child, sorry Sky. 

Cathy: Um, but I remember a lot of parents being like, Oh, my kid started walking at nine or 10 months. And oh, your kid isn’t walking yet. And I remember being in a music class where there was [00:15:00] a mom like, Trying to force her child to walk.

Cathy: Yikes. I know, like holding her up and making, because other babies were walking. And this is where we get a little effed up with milestones. Do you see what I mean? We’re trying to force something that, again, it can be indicative. You know, of something, a bigger issue. But there is also a lot of room to play with here.

Cathy: And I think that sometimes we get very concerned about looking for red flags, or we’re trying to keep up, or have our kid keep up, and we try and force something that is coming in its own time. 

Todd: Um, this might divert the conversation. Um, but what I just wrote down is, we have our perceived trajectory for our kids.

Todd: Good, I like that. And then they have their own. Right? Right. And it may not even 

Cathy: be perceived. It just may be their reality. 

Todd: And I was talking to a couple this weekend, a father and a daughter, and I would judge that they parent the way we do, which is not to overemphasize SAT scores [00:16:00] and whether or not you get a B on your report card.

Todd: And, um, I also saw fathers that were really not nudging their kids into uncomfortable situations. Instead, they were kind of like, you know, really putting them in difficult situations because by now they should have, they should want to do the zip line. Right? They don’t want to do these things. Because, and why are they saying that?

Todd: Because I’m ready for them. Yeah, I am ready for them to do the zip line. And I know better than they do because once they do the zip line, then you’ll see this euphoric smile from ear to ear and they’ll say, thank you dad for making me do this. And, um, I, I’m not going to say I’m innocent from, and from directing our daughters.

Todd: I’m sure I have in our, in their life. But for the most part, we try to let them trust themselves. We do. I want to take you back though. I want to take you back 

Cathy: in time. To 

Todd: Paradise City? 

Cathy: No. Where the grass is green. The girls are pretty, but I’m not going to take you there. [00:17:00] Okay. I’m going to take you to, um, Our second Disney trip.

Cathy: Okay, here we go. Remember this? Yeah. Okay. I wrote about this. Yes, you did. Because we went to Disney and you were very upset that the girls, especially our oldest daughter, was not going on the rides you wanted to go on. 

Todd: Sweetie, let’s get specific. It was Pirates of the Caribbean. 

Cathy: And you said, 

Todd: why are we here?

Todd: No, no. I said, I did not come to Disney World. To have you not go on pirates because you’ve been telling me and she was like four or whatever I don’t know how old she was because you’ve been telling me how much you want this so I am going to Uh, I know what’s best for you. And even though your body is screaming, please don’t take me on that ride.

Todd: I’m going to force you on that ride. Now thankfully Cathy was there to say, no you’re not. We’re gonna let this kid decide for herself what she wants. And I don’t even know if I did this, but Cameron wanted to go on it. Now Cameron was too, Cameron was too young to be scared. He didn’t know to be [00:18:00] scared.

Cathy: She went on every ride. 

Todd: So like, and there’s a, there’s a bunch of examples I can say to where I did that. In a way that did not line up with my parental values. 

Cathy: Well, the reason I bring that one up is that statement. Like I said, you know, you remember it as well as I do, that you’re like, why are we at Disney?

Cathy: Or I didn’t come to Disney for you to not go on rides, which that’s like right there. We got to like pull, like, it’s almost like, I want to pause that moment and pull back and have us all look at that and say, what, what? Like, Disney is not. I went on this many rides. Disney is visuals. It’s food. It’s experience.

Cathy: It’s family. It’s being together and putting shoulds on something like Disney or going to the pool or um, you know, the, the belief that we have to force something or get angry about something to have our kids do something. I know half of you listening right now are like, yeah, but that’s what happened with me.

Cathy: And I did end up liking it. True. I [00:19:00] would take nothing away from your story. But my question to parents is all, is always, could there have been another way? 

Todd: What, what I think, yes, and there could be another way. And what I think it is, is we want to give our children And opportunity to flex their gut muscles.

Todd: And when I say gut muscles is trust your gut, trust your intuition. And if we continue to know what’s better for these kids, even if they end up liking whatever it is that we’re pushing them into, they’re learning that they shouldn’t trust themselves. They should trust somebody else. 

Cathy: Correct. And that they’re doing something wrong and that who they are isn’t, they’re not brave or like, you know, we’ve gone through this a million times on this podcast, but.

Cathy: Could we view bravery to be speaking up for what they want? Could we say it’s pretty brave that you made a choice to not go on that ride when everyone else did? And here’s the interesting thing, because Todd and I have grown kids and you know, we’ve been doing this show 14 years. And so a lot of people will say, well, you say that now, but you know, this could be a problem or you say that now, but wait till you have teenagers.

Cathy: You can’t, [00:20:00] you know, the amount of feedback we’ve gotten about that. And I will tell you right now that that oldest daughter that didn’t want to go on those rides. Eventually in her own time, fifth, seventh, I can’t even remember when, became this roller coaster queen who now it goes to different countries and jumps off ledges, which I don’t love.

Cathy: And she does that when I say jumps off ledges, she’ll like in Greece or in Croatia, she like jumped off this really high, what is it? It’s not a ledge. What do you call that? 

Todd: Big rock. A 

Cathy: big rock into the water. She actually has this picture of her that someone took, like someone just picked up a camera, took a picture of her, and then found her and gave it to her.

Cathy: Yeah, that was crazy. Crazy. But anyway, she has it, she made it into a flag that hangs above her bed. I’m saying that because she chose that. 

Todd: Well, can I tell you one more Jaycee story? Um, and I think I shared this story in the podcast maybe once, not a lot, but when JC was like 14, we’re, she was going to lacrosse with a new team and it was her first time meeting this team.

Todd: And she said to [00:21:00] me, dad, will you go out there with me to, and she’s 14, she’s not eight, right? Will you go out there with me just cause I don’t know anybody and all that. And there is a part of me, and I did this one a little bit better than I did the Pirates of the Caribbean story. There’s part of me is like, no, go step into your comfort zone and go figure it out.

Todd: Go meet the people, do all these things. Is, was that, that was the one part of me. You 

Cathy: did say that initially, didn’t you? Or did you not? No, I said it in my head. In your 

Todd: head. Okay. But then I quickly realized I’m like, she’s asking me, For support. Right. I went out there. I chilled out with her. I met a few parents.

Todd: She just, she needed support. That’s the bottom line. And then the next week she didn’t. Right. So, but it’s so easy for me as a parent and I judge other parents to be like, nope, it’s time for her to do this on her own. And of course that there’s a pendulum and if, but the thing is the kid’s never 18 and says, will you come out?

Todd: Here, because this is my first day of practice, like [00:22:00] they grow, they just grow according and they become more responsible and they, they step into uncomfortable situations. But that day she wasn’t ready to do it. 

Cathy: And it’s all relative. Like I’m going to, you know, again, we always have to find this, you know, there’s the two extremes, right?

Cathy: And like, obviously helicopter parenting and doing everything for your kids is a problem. We’re talking about, and we’re not saying Do everything for them. That’s not the thing. It’s when they are telling you something, listen to them. Yeah. Will you walk with me there? Um, sure. I’ll walk with you up there.

Cathy: What’s like, what is the worst thing about that? Like there were, I had some very uncomfortable experiences when the girls were really little of sitting in a dance class and the teacher could not stand me sitting on the dentist floor. The dentist could not stand me. 

Todd: I love that. Everybody just pause and think about my wife.

Todd: Because the dentist’s office, I believe, tell me if I’m miss, if I’m miss telling the story. Like, [00:23:00] sorry, we don’t do that because. You can’t come back. You can’t come back. There’s no seat for you. You’re like, actually, you said I can and I will. 

Cathy: Well, no, I didn’t say that at all. What I said is my daughter needs me and I already told her I would come back with her.

Todd: So then what did you end up doing? There’s no chair. 

Cathy: I sat on the floor and held her hand. And the thing is, it’s the same. So, I have so many memories from that, because you remember the giraffe in the corner, like it’s so, and, and the way I thought about it then, because she was so little, is this has nothing to do with me trying to overpower the dentist.

Cathy: This isn’t me trying to be like, don’t, you know, I’m a mama bear. It was none of that crap. It was, I’m developing a relationship with my daughter. I already told her I’d come back. So this is not something that I’m going to say, what this man says is more important than what I said to you. So. And he was, he was annoyed.

Cathy: I don’t think we went back there very much after that. I think we found a new dentist and I get it, but my daughter, like, I don’t know if it’s the next time or the next time. Maybe I sat on floors for a while, but she’s [00:24:00] obviously now she drives herself to the dentist and goes, do you know what I mean?

Cathy: Like we eventually get there and there is a The more, like what they’re doing when they’re asking you to hold their hand is I am going to do this. I just need a little extra support in doing it. And um, there is, you know, there’s been things that we’ve had to help our girls like when they were very little and they had pacifiers, we had to at some point intervene and we created this whole thing called the Passy Party and it was, but we did it over time.

Cathy: We didn’t say it’s time to throw this away and throw it in the garbage. We did it over time with their commitment inside of it. They had, they had a 

Todd: role in, they 

Cathy: had a role in it. They helped develop the plan. 

Todd: Remember what some parents used to tell us today, . It’s so funny. Parents are like, take a pair of scissors and cut a hole in it and cut a hole in it because then there’s no suction, and then they’ll just eventually not want it anymore.

Cathy: So, because, um, you know, I probably told this story 14 years ago, but I as a child found my pacifier and blanket in a garbage and [00:25:00] it was so traumatizing and you don’t think I ripped that, those things out of the garbage and just took them back and said, I’m never letting go. And so that’s not why I’m not like reacting from that and saying my kids can have it forever.

Cathy: But it was a moment where someone tried to do that. And that was like something that I felt that doesn’t feel safe to me. That doesn’t feel good to me. And I’m open to having a discussion about this. I was probably like four, three, whatever, but this is too, this is too aggressive. Mom, dad, I’m not ready.

Cathy: Right. I’m not ready. Can we do this over time? So. Let’s let’s like that’s really small kids. Um, you know, obviously we have preschool as a, you know, milestone dropping them off, which can be really hard. We had a lot of crying and I didn’t stay in the preschool. There would always be a teacher who’d be like, I got them come back, you know, so there were times that we did have to separate as long as I trusted who was there.

Cathy: Kindergarten. Always rough. All three of our kids cried. Didn’t they? Uh, I know Jace Actually Skyler said she, or Cameron said she didn’t. 

Todd: I know [00:26:00] Jacey did. I don’t know about Cammie and I don’t remember Sky. 

Cathy: And then, you know, then the milestones become different. Like maybe their first sports team, their first club, their first, um First whatever.

Cathy: Their first whatever. These are all like experiences that they’re having. And, and, you know, and again, there’s going to be some kids who try, Because they’re kind of a little more, um, gregarious and out there and extroverted, they might try a whole bunch of things when they’re in elementary school and we’re like, Oh, wow, look at all these things.

Cathy: And then there may be other kids who are like, I’m not ready for those things. And that’s okay. We don’t have to look at our third grader and say, wow, They’re never going to make friends and be involved in anything because they’re not staying after school for yearbook staff. 

Todd: I wonder if you’d be willing, and i’m catching you off guard, to share an example of where you, and it could have been yesterday or last year or 10 years ago, where you did need to do a gentle nudge for your kids to kind of get them, just to have them step out of their comfort zone?

Cathy: Um, well, you know, one of our [00:27:00] kids had a lot of school anxiety and I had to do a lot of different, try a lot of different things to help her get back into school. Or do things to encourage her to go in or to try or, um, so it wasn’t always comfortable because that’s one of those things where you got to go to school, right?

Cathy: And so we had, you know, we’re all big into mental health days and stuff like that, but That can’t be something you do all the time, and nor do I feel like she took advantage of that. Like, she wasn’t like, oh, mental health day. Like, there was no manipulation. There was just like, for as much space as Todd and I have for the full development of yourself versus going and taking a test at school, you also have to Be in school, you know, like there was a, um, we knew what was, what was right.

Todd: Put it this way. If they’re tanked and their gas tank is empty and they’re like, I need a mental health day. I don’t, I can’t think of a time where like, no, you have to go to school. But if they try to pull that on the second day, [00:28:00] depending on what’s happening, we’ll probably have a little bit less. Yeah.

Todd: Openness around that. 

Cathy: Well, and look, and I’m just going to focus on your language, because I think it’s interesting. You said, try to pull that. Do you see how even your language sounds like they’re trying to manipulate you? Yeah, right, 

right. 

Cathy: And, and I understand what you’re trying to say, but that’s like old school Gen X language of like, you’re trying to pull one over on me.

Cathy: Where it’s like, they may say the next day, I kind of want to stay home today. And it’s like, I know, but But you missed it. Yeah, but we missed yesterday. So, and they all developed that, that muscle of, um, but anyway, I definitely, I had to get help to do that. I could not do that on my own. We had to, you know, that was like, you know, a couple years of practice back and forth and, and then she would have these periods of time where everything would be fine and there wouldn’t be, but we had to really get to the core of that school anxiety, which I think we did.

Cathy: Um, but that took time. And when I say we, I don’t mean Todd and I figured it out. I mean, she figured it out with the help of, you know, other people and, you know, just some [00:29:00] faith in the process. Let’s say that. Cause I think a lot of times we think it’ll be forever. And that’s when we start to push, and we start to, you know, bribe, and we start to get angry, and we start to be passive aggressive.

Cathy: And while we all have those moments, we’ve got to have some trust in the bigger picture of, of who are we, you know, it’s kind of like sitting on the floor at the dentist. What’s my big picture here? The call to connection. Connection and relationship and trust in brain growth and trust in that, you know, there’s other things inspiring this child besides my words.

Todd: Well, and one thing I had in that conversation is having Skyler and I and a father daughter couple that we were sitting across from at breakfast yesterday was that when, uh, our kids are going to feel the pressure with or without us. So our daughter goes to a high school that’s competitive and whatever, pre college oriented or whatever it is.

Todd: And for me and you to drop the hammer saying, no, you have to [00:30:00] take this SAT class or you have to take this AP honors class so that you get in a good school, you got to get a scholarship and all that. She’s receiving so much other Feedback than what she hears from you and I, from her peers, from the school itself, from whatever showing up in her Instagram feed, whatever.

Todd: So they’re getting this pressure without us needing to apply even more of it. Correct. 

Cathy: Yeah. And you know, I think that the thing that’s hard, and again, I’m going down another rabbit hole is a lot of parents will say, okay, I’m going to ease off and then my kid will be lazy and then they won’t do anything.

Cathy: And, you know, that’s our discomfort with breaks and that’s our discomfort with believing our kid has it inside of them. And so we, and especially if we’ve already told them they’re lazy or that we’re disappointed or that, you know, there’s a whole process that needs to happen of like trust and connection and feeling seen so that somebody can rise to [00:31:00] their potential.

Cathy: And sometimes they have times where they’re not rising and do you still. Support them in those moments. Our kids are not always shining. We’d like them to be because we are not always shining. And we’re like, 

Todd: Can you 

Cathy: shine for me? 

Todd: Yeah, when they’re shining, we can feel okay and we don’t have to stress.

Todd: When they’re not shining, then we think it’s a reflection of our own parenting. 

Cathy: Exactly. And it’s so funny. I was just um, this is, this is more for people who have kids in college, but I was just listening to a Kelly Corrigan, uh, podcast. She was on, um, she was being interviewed and she was talking about how when your kids are in college.

Cathy: What you know about them and what’s going on with them is based on the moment you talk to them, okay? So for example, if you talk to them at 9 a. m. In the morning, and they’re like, oh my god, mom I had the worst day. I woke up late. I’m really struggling You by 930 they could be fine, but you don’t know that And so when you run into someone at the grocery store and they say, how are your kids doing?

Cathy: You may be like, Oh, they’re really struggling at school or vice versa. You talk to them at [00:32:00] nine 15 and they’re like, I’m having the best time. Like that’s why I’m laughing about these texts I’m getting from my college student. Cause today’s her first day of school. So I said, send me a picture, whatever.

Cathy: And this morning was great. And now her ID is not working. And she’s like, I’m having the worst day. And it’s just funny. It’s not funny. I’m not laughing at her, but isn’t it interesting how 30 minutes ago was fine. Yeah. The thing is, 

Todd: Same thing happened to her like her first day and her new residence, um, was tough.

Todd: Yeah. And so was the second. And then since then it’s been good. Right. And it’s going to be bad again sometime. 

Cathy: Well, and the thing is, is when kids are living in your house, you have eyes on them all the time. So you see the fluctuations and you know, you’re going to, you know, a kid wakes up maybe is struggling and an hour later they’re fine.

Cathy: So you’re watching the process. When you have kids in college, you’re getting snapshots. Right? So you can’t get the whole picture anymore. You don’t have eyes on them. But my point is, that was a digression. Going back to the milestones, is that our kids, you know, it’s the same thing we say all the time.

Cathy: They develop at their own rate. And a lot of our [00:33:00] shoulds, because this gets really tricky, okay? Because then they go into middle school, maybe they have their first camp experience. You know, all these kind of traditional milestones, high school, proms, all this. I’m just jumping ahead, Todd. 

Yeah. Okay. 

Cathy: Maybe your kids go to college even, okay, which is a huge milestone and, you know, every year is so significant in their growth.

Cathy: Like, the way I see my daughter, who’s a sophomore this year versus my, my senior daughter, it’s the amount of experiences my senior daughter has had, where she’s like a full on adult. Like, yesterday she was applying for a job, and then, you know what I mean? Like, she’s not doing, like, the sorority stuff anymore that my sophomore’s doing.

Cathy: But then, all of a sudden, we get invested in, you know, Are you partnering with someone? Where are you going to live? What job are you going to have? Are you going to get married? Are you going to have kids? And we have all of these expectations around, like it never ends, everybody. Like the milestones we want them to be, you know, coming at a rate that make us comfortable.

Cathy: And I was someone who, [00:34:00] and this is totally normal now, um, and maybe it was normal then, but it didn’t feel like it. I, Todd and I didn’t get together till we were in our late twenties. Like we didn’t get married till I was 30. So in my twenties, I had times with my mom and dad where they’d be like, what?

Cathy: What are you doing? You know, like, you know, what’s the plan here? Even though I was going to grad school, I was, I had a good job, but I think they were ready for me to have some kind of plan, family. I don’t know. They didn’t say it that bluntly. It’s just, I knew it. Actually, my mom said it that bluntly a few times, um, where a lot of people around me were partnered or whatever.

Cathy: And I was living alone in Chicago and doing that thing. And I did struggle sometimes like what comes next? Twenties are scary, you know, like what’s coming next. But as you guys know, I mean, I can say that that time living by myself was everything. That’s where I became an adult. That’s where I figured out that, Oh, I take the garbage out.

Cathy: Oh, I have to make my bed every day. And I know that you may not believe that, but I lived with people [00:35:00] all the time. Like even my roommates that I lived with before I lived alone, like my friend, Jess, we’d hand her a check and she’d mail it in. Do you know what I mean? For rent? Like, I just didn’t handle things on my own.

Cathy: And that became, that’s why. I was then a good partner and knew what I wanted to do with my life and was able to be, do you see what I mean? Like sometimes these things that are not typical milestones, I don’t even know if I’m using this word milestone, right? Anymore. 

Todd: Who cares. We’ll figure out the right word.

Todd: I want to play a clip from the movie Parenthood where Jason Robards is talking to Steve Martin about how it, cause you said it never ends and that’s what it reminds me of. 

Worrying, pain. It’s not for me. And, you know, it’s. Not like that all ends when you’re 18 or 21 or 41 or 61. It never, never ends. Ends.

Todd: Yeah, just never ends. 

Cathy: And so if you’re [00:36:00] thinking, okay, once my kid is here, is here, I’m going to be content. When we create a 

Todd: child, you’re in for, 

Cathy: in for the ride, 

Todd: for the ride in, we’re going to be 80 someday and our kid’s going to be whatever, 60. And we’re going to be worrying about our kid. I know. It’s just the way it is.

Todd: I know. Hopefully a little bit less worried than when they were two. 

Cathy: Yep. 

Todd: But who knows? 

Cathy: I know. And that’s the thing is like, so you add on top of that this, this structure that you believe that they should be having in their life, that it should look this way or this way or this way, or all the, you know, the neighbor’s kid is doing this, or my best friend’s kid is doing this.

Cathy: And then all of a sudden you’re tacking on another layer of, Potential doom and gloom for yourself and guilt and shame for your kid instead of, um, and I’m not saying it’s always easy when your kid’s taking a different path or, or they’re not walking and everybody else is, or, you know, they didn’t get on a team and everyone else did, or they don’t want to go on the Washington DC trip, but all the rest of the kids do.

Cathy: Like [00:37:00] these are difficult moments. Could be crushing. It could be crushing and it can be confusing and it can be hard for the kid. But the, my big bud is that. All three of my kids have had experiences where they’ve decided not to do something, or something didn’t go, you know, they’ve been like, I’m not going to go on that trip, or I’m not going to say this, or I’m not going to do this.

Cathy: And all of them have later been like, I did that, and that, I’m, I’m not happy I did that. So I’m going to do something else this time. And that is an internal learning that I couldn’t have given them with my lectures. Do you see what I mean? Like, and I don’t even want to call it a failure, but like choosing to not go on an overnight or 

Todd: to, you know, I feel like we want to do a podcast on this one topic and I don’t know if we ever did.

Todd: And it was just about, uh, you know, everybody. Talks about how quitting is such a terrible thing and you got to finish the season or whatever it is. We did 

Cathy: a show on quitting like two weeks ago. 

Todd: I just did a search and I couldn’t find it. I don’t think we 

Cathy: called it quitting. What did we call it? Um, we called it like grit.

Cathy: Something about grit. [00:38:00] Yeah, okay. 

Todd: Um, tonic masculinity, normal anxiety, life trajectories, balancing cognitive later, pressure to conform. 

Cathy: Maybe the, um, cognitive, um, I can’t remember. 

Todd: Yeah, I don’t know. It was something about 

Cathy: quitting. It 

Todd: was just about, um, we, uh, you know, sometimes what’s best for our child is to let them, you know, 

Yeah.

Todd: Now, there’s so many variables to that. Is it quitting at the end of the season? Is their team, is the team counting on them? What’s going on with their emotional well being? I mean, there’s variables in any of these parenting scenarios that, that would be, that would need to be considered on how, yeah, how best to move forward.

Cathy: Yeah. 

Todd: So 

Cathy: well, like one example is a couple of summers ago, my, one of my daughters decided she wanted to go to a camp because all my girls have done camp for like a week. They did that in their childhood and everything. So they’re kind of used to that week model, but she decided to go to a camp that was two weeks and it was a different camp.

Cathy: So it wasn’t one that she’d experienced [00:39:00] before. And we kind of were like, go and see what you think. But you know, We’re paying for this. So if it’s not what you think, like, just let us know. Right. And she was there and she was struggling at first. She’s like, but that’s okay. You know, I’m going to stick it out.

Cathy: And then when she got to the weak point, like it was, it had been seven days. She’s like, you know what? I’m done. This is not exactly what I thought it was going to be. And I’ve kind of, you know, crawled my way through this and I’m kind of miserable. And Todd and I were like, okay, now did the camp person like this?

Cathy: No, she was very upset with us. Very upset. You’re teaching her. This and this and this and you’re teaching her this. And my framework was, my daughter at a very young age was gone from her home for a week and did a pretty damn good job. And that is what she can do right now. And she’s too young for me to be like, this means, because the fact that she even wanted to go, this was her choice.

Cathy: This was something she wanted to do. And. There was, you know, at the end, I remember when, once it was really [00:40:00] over, like the next week was over and I think she talked to a few people who had been there, she, there was a few pieces of it that she was like, Oh, that would have been interesting. That would have been interesting.

Cathy: But she’s like, for the most part, she felt so spent by that time that she’s like, I came home. I did a lot of sleeping. Like she felt like it was the best thing for her and we haven’t heard a thing about it yet since. 

Todd: Yeah. And so there’s, um, and you know, notice we did not get in the car the minute that she had any adversity.

Todd: We tried our best to support her. First 

Cathy: couple of days, we were like, yeah, 

Todd: you got this, do your best, blah, blah, blah. And then there was a point where like, this isn’t worth it for her. And I don’t think it’s worth it for us. And if the camp counselor, whoever, you know, judges us, I’m okay with it. 

Cathy: Yeah. And we were so kind of funny with this woman because she was like, you don’t understand, you don’t understand.

Cathy: And we were like, ah. I think we’ll be like, we were like overly nice to her, kind of like, thank you. Because you know, I 

Todd: get 

Cathy: from her perspective, she’s seeing a lot of families and she’s seeing a lot of things like kids [00:41:00] being yanked out or kids being forced. Like she’s seeing a lot of things that will make her create one perspective, which is you have to make your kids stay right.

Cathy: And you know, for the most part, if it was like a five day camp or a week camp, I’d agree with her. But we were talking about like, it was like an. I think it was even longer than two weeks. It was like 18 days. And I’m like, you know what, I think her giving it the seven or eight days and still feeling this way, I’m pretty proud of her decision to go in the first place.

Cathy: And this is, you know, if you’re listening to this and you’re like, well, that doesn’t make sense for my kid, totally get it. You don’t have to do it, Todd and I don’t. No. What I’m saying is that there have been experiences that my girls have chosen that didn’t work out, and then there’s been experiences that they’ve chosen that they have just blown so high.

Cathy: Yeah. And I think there is the Being a human being. Exactly. And the, the ability to like, instead of force those situations, allow them to, Instead of make one happen, stand back so one can happen [00:42:00] because it hasn’t impeded their lives. Like they have figured out, like even my daughter who hated. roller coasters, hated them, and would go with her friends to Six Flags and would just sit.

Cathy: And this isn’t JC jumping off mountains. Um, this is my middle daughter. She now does them. She now goes to Disney all the time and does all the rides. Like, but she came to that. 

Todd: On her own. 

Cathy: In her own time, almost in adulthood. I think she was like 17. And why did, why would we? 

Todd: The reason we want to do it is because we think we We know best.

Todd: I know. It’s interesting. You started the show with this. There are times when we do Push our kids into the deep end of the pool and they end up liking playing in the deep end of the pool, but for The way that you and I have chose to parent like let’s just trust this kid 

Cathy: Well, and could they like the deep end of the pool in a different way?

Cathy: Because what happened when you push them into the deep end of the pool? There can be a trust that’s broken. There can be like, oh, I’m not gonna tell dad I don’t want to do [00:43:00] this or he’s gonna force me. I’m not gonna talk to dad about doing this or he’s gonna make me. There’s a relationship issue that comes into effect.

Cathy: Could they end up being okay in the deep end? Sure. But is that, is that bad? Big picture, what you want, like, are you seeing all the facets of this? It’s also not me going, don’t go in the deep end, you’ll drown. Like, either way, like go in, don’t go in, have us help you, have your peer help you, have a teacher help you.

Cathy: Like, we’re just here for it, girl. You know what I mean? 

Todd: And then get out of their way. Yeah, and do no harm. Yeah, I try my best to just keep parenting simple and it’s not as simple as that phrase I just said. Right. No, it’s not. But just keep them safe and get out of their way. 

Cathy: Yeah. And, and maybe take a step back from when you think milestones should be happening.

Cathy: Yeah. There’s some obvious ones of when you’re five, you go to school, you know, there’s some that are like just built into our laws and stuff. in our system. But maybe step back from those other milestones of my kids should be able to do this by now because I think they should, because I did, because the neighbor [00:44:00] down the street.

Cathy: Maybe have conversations with them about, you know, let’s, let’s figure out when you’re feeling more ready and why you’re not feeling ready. Like, you know. The other piece in this, to kind of close it up, is that these necessitate lots of conversations with your kid. Like, this is not just parents standing back and then crossing their fingers.

Cathy: Like, the amount of conversations I’ve had with the girls about what they feel ready for and what they don’t feel ready for and why. And then processing their decision making is a big part of this. I’m not just some bystander who’s like, you know, Hoping. I’m like, let’s talk about why you don’t want to go.

Todd: I wish somebody would write a book about messy conversations. 

Cathy: I did. I wrote one, Todd. Did you? I wrote one. Did you know that? Tell me more. It’s called Restoring Our Girls and it’s about how having real conversations not only, you know, builds your connection with them, but also helps them through teen challenges and reminds them that they matter.

Cathy: That’s my subtitle. [00:45:00] Um, and so it is, I love this book. I mean, I know I love all the things I write. When 

Todd: can I 

Cathy: buy one? It comes out in January. 

Todd: Of 2025. 

Cathy: Of 2025. Um, but I’m going to, I got my cover, so I’m going to be posting my book cover soon. And you know, you’ll be hearing all about it all the time, but this is like the real conversations That we have with our girls.

Cathy: Like even in real conversation, meaning when they say, I’m scared and I don’t want to go, and we’re like, okay, I get it. Instead of why would you be scared? What’s wrong with you? This is when everyone goes, um, you know, that kind of stuff that that’s. That maybe will force our kids into something, but that may not be taken into account because there’s been plenty of things my girls haven’t wanted to do and then we’ve had conversations and then they have done it.

Cathy: And then on the flip side, we’ve had conversations and they haven’t. So it’s not about, the conversation isn’t how to coerce them. It’s how to figure out how emotionally ready they feel to do it and allowing them to choose. [00:46:00] Okay. 

Todd: Uh, anything else, sweetie? I think that’s good. I’m gonna, uh, just say thank you to Jeremy Kraft.

Todd: He’s a bald headed beauty. He, uh, paints and remodels all over Chicago. So give him a call 630 956 1800, uh, join Team Zen and, uh, we’ve got some announcements coming up in September. We do. So, uh, we’re excited to share those with you. Keep truckin everybody. 

Team Zen. 

Round two. Change a little bit. And change a little bit. Pretty pleasant.