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Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd, and this is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 778. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is that the best predictor of a child’s wellbeing is a parent’s self understanding.
Todd: On today’s show, uh, the topic is projections, and we already have the title. It’s called It’s All Your Projection.
Cathy: Unless it’s not.
Todd: Unless it’s not. And we’re going to talk about the differences. Uh, but first you wrote a Zen Parenting Moment.
Cathy: Before I share that, can I tell you something? It’s kind of Chicago Gen X news.
Cathy: Sure. Um, Phil Donahue died.
Todd: Oh, that’s too bad.
Cathy: Yeah. Phil Donahue’s show was in [00:01:00] Chicago. He married, he’s married. Marlo Thomas.
Todd: Yeah. And she was the mom, Rachel’s mom on Friends.
Cathy: Well, yes, but before that, she was that girl.
Todd: Oh, is that girl a TV show that I didn’t know about? Oh. Yes. But not Who’s That Girl?
Cathy: No, that’s Madonna.
Cathy: No, no.
Todd: Uh, that she’s Jess.
Cathy: Oh, you’re talking about New Girl. Yeah, I thought you were talking about the movie Who’s That Girl, which is Madonna. But yes, New Girl is Jess. That girl is Marlo Thomas. Um And Phil died. And Phil Donahue died and I just want to, it’s a very Gen X thing because Phil was there before Oprah, you know, and my mom used to go to the Phil Donahue show and sit in the audience and we always watched the Phil Donahue show.
Cathy: And so just those of you Gen Xers, you’re probably going to know this by the time this podcast comes out, but it just came across the wire, as they say. Um, that’s sad. I know. Well, we have a lot of connections. To, you know, just being from Chicago and stuff, don’t you think? Did your mom ever go to the Phil Donahue show?
Cathy: I think I may have [00:02:00] gone. Yeah, I think, feel like we’ve talked about that. Are you ready for the show theme? Let’s do it.
Todd: I don’t think we spent a lot of money on this one.
Cathy: This is the most classic 80s saxophone theme song. Todd and I always notice how in every 80s movie, there’s like a really, uh, you know, a large degree of saxophone music. Um, we just watched No Way Out again the other night, the Kevin Costner movie, and lots of saxophone.
Cathy: We all know that there’s lots of saxophone in St. Elmo’s Fire. We all know that there’s a lot of saxophone in, uh, The Lost Boys. Maybe we don’t all know, but these are things Todd and I pay attention to.
Cathy: It’s Billy Hicks.
Todd: Billy Hicks.
Cathy: Kind of sounds bad. Yeah,
Todd: it’s a bad, it’s a bad version.
Cathy: One love! And then, of course, we had [00:03:00] Clarence Clemons of the E Street Band, who was the saxophonist, correct? That’s right. And
Todd: that’s about the extent of my saxophone knowledge.
Cathy: Well, it’s not about having knowledge of famous saxophonists.
Cathy: It’s just, I’m going to throw this out to everybody. If you’re listening to, uh, like an 80s, you know, watching an 80s movie and you’re listening, like listen to the soundtrack, or if you’re listening to an 80s song, Notice how much saxophone is used in, it just, people just really loved the sax.
Todd: I know Pink Floyd, uh, did that for a few songs, I think sax showed up on Dark Side a little bit, and Sure.
Todd: Um, famous saxophonists. Okay, let’s hear it. Charlie Parker. Duh, of course, that’s Bird. Who’s Bird? He’s, sweetie, he’s the best, like, jazz musician ever. Oops. John Coltrane. Okay. Sonny Rollins. Okay. Cannonball Adderley. That’s a cool name. Mm hmm. What’s your first name? Cannonball. Seaball. I’m gonna go with that.
Todd: Cannonball. Lester Young, Michael Brecker, Dexter Gordon. I don’t know [00:04:00] any of these dudes. But you
Cathy: should look up songs that have a lot of saxophone. And I remember when Lady Gaga put out Edge of Glory, I think, and she had a bunch of saxophone in it. And I was like, wow, this is a total throwback. And I think, I think I’m putting some pieces together.
Cathy: It might’ve been Clarence Clemens before he died. I think I’m, I think I’m right about this. Are you ready for the most famous one, I think. Okay, let’s hear. Oh, I know. Which one is it? What’s his name? Is it Donna? I have no idea, but we’re gonna find out here. Okay. What’s this guy? Rafferty.
Todd: Jerry Rafferty.
Todd: Jerry
Cathy: Rafferty Yacht Rock.
Todd: We gotta wait for the sax to come in. Here it
Cathy: comes.
Todd: Is it,
Cathy: well, maybe not yet. There might be another verse.
Todd: One more verse. Oh boy. Enough of the verses. Let’s get to the sacks.
Cathy: Come on, Jerry. Okay, here we go.
Todd: [00:05:00] Um, and then other ones on the list. Hold on, I gotta turn this off. Thank you, Jerry.
Todd: Thanks, Jerry
Cathy: Rafferty.
Todd: Other ones on the list are Careless Whisper by George Michael. Born to Run. Yes. Bruce Springsteen. Smooth Operator by Sade.
Cathy: Sade. It’s, I know it’s S A D A, but, or D E, but she pronounces it Sade.
Todd: Your latest trick by Dire Straits, Jungle Land by Bruce Springsteen. Just the way you are, sweetie.
Todd: That’s a good song. Bruno Mars? I know. Oh, you’re talking about Billy Joel. Billy Joel. That’s our song. That’s the song that we dance to. That’s our wedding song. For our wedding. Super Freak, Rick James. Okay. Young Americans, David Bowie, and Rio by Duran Duran. All great examples and all
Cathy: very differently, right?
Cathy: You know?
Todd: Very much so. It gives you an, uh, an idea of the, um, flexibility of the old saxophone.
Cathy: Yeah. Did a lot of kids play. Have you ever played [00:06:00] sax in your school? No. Not
Todd: a single person played sax at my school.
Cathy: What? Well, someone had to, to be in the band.
Todd: Oh, high school?
Cathy: Yes. I don’t
Todd: know. I’m
Cathy: not talking about your fraternity.
Cathy: I thought you were thinking
Todd: about my grade school.
Cathy: Well, I feel like we had different school experiences. You think? Yes. When we were in fourth grade, we chose an instrument. And I didn’t know a lot of people who didn’t choose an instrument. I chose a triangle. You didn’t, you didn’t choose anything. I said I love you!
Cathy: Alright, thank you, Billie. That’s fu It was Edge of Glory, by the way, where Clarence came back and sang with Lady Gaga and then he died. That’s sad. Okay, so done with the saxophone, done with,
Todd: um,
Cathy: done with Phil Donahue. I appreciate Phil Donahue and Phil, without Phil, there wouldn’t have been an Oprah and she always says that.
Cathy: So he was, uh, you know, he helped a lot of things.
Todd: So you wrote a moment, a parenting moment called First Day of School. And there’s a little quote, there’s always these little quotes underneath. [00:07:00] And I think this is a Cathy Cassani Adams special. I easily flow into the summer in May, but I have to force myself.
Todd: Out of the chair for August. What chair am I forcing myself
Cathy: out of, Todd, in the house?
Todd: Uh, the green chair? Yes,
Cathy: the green chair. I love the green chair.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: Um, I literally have to force myself out because I don’t like the first day of school hot take. I don’t like it.
Todd: It’s not a very hot take, sweetie. I think a lot of people don’t like the first day of school.
Todd: Well,
Cathy: everybody seems so excited and you know what I never understood is like I, we, when the girls were little, we’d go to like to the first day of school and all these parents would be like dressed up. Maybe they were going to work. I don’t know. But I was like, do we need to look nice? Cause I’m sad. Um, and I didn’t like it and I didn’t like the change.
Cathy: If you go back into, uh, Zen Parenting archives for the last 14 years, you will see that at the beginning of every year. School year, that is. I am very grumpy, um, and I make comments about how much I don’t like going back to school. When my kids were in kindergarten, first, eighth, freshman [00:08:00] year, college, the worst.
Cathy: Um, my daughter is a junior. She started last Wednesday. That’s rough because she has to go back to that routine. Todd and I have to get back in that routine of getting up and doing all those things. And it’s hard for her and for everybody. Then Cameron went back to school this weekend, which is hard. And then JC goes back to school tomorrow.
Cathy: And I just don’t like any of it. I don’t like August.
Todd: Can I read a few of my favorite parts of this article that you wrote? Sure, babe. Uh, you’re talking about our children. They often already know what you’re going to say, and mentally they know it’s time to go back, but their bodies, through no fault of their own, might react differently.
Todd: So I think that that’s just an interesting one because, uh, you’re talking about bodies instead of, you know, thoughts. So I just wonder if you want to expand on, uh, that piece of your article.
Cathy: Sure. I think that, um, so, yeah. If you all understand that [00:09:00] every age we’ve ever been lives inside of us, right? Your two year old is still alive in you, your five year old, your thirteen year old, twenty two year old, and that, um, they, all of those ages, have stories about their lives, right?
Cathy: And it’s part of the reason we have reactions to things, negative or positive, um, You know, it’s part of the reason that certain things feel good to us or feel bad to us is because we’ve learned things over the years, right? And so those years still live in us. And I think that when a new school, when a new school year comes, it’s a really big feeling time.
Cathy: And there’s probably aspects of our history of our eight, you know, like, Parts of us from previous ages that were scared on the first day of school or felt left, you know, like we there’s this picture that always comes up on our screensaver of JC when we took her to kindergarten and She was just like, whoa, are you leaving me here?
Cathy: Like she was so sad. Terrified. And that still lives in her and So there’s that vibe. There’s also a very joyful, excited, new [00:10:00] Uncertainty, like nothing here is static. Like there’s all sorts. It’s multi dimensional, but all those feelings are coming up at once the excitement and the fear And it’s a lot of feeling.
Cathy: And so when my point I was trying to make is as parents, we don’t need to go through the checklist of why they’re going to be okay of like, well, you’re going to sit by your friends and you have this teacher and you have this class and you’re going to be a junior. So it’s going to be fine. Don’t do the cerebral stuff.
Cathy: If they’re having a feeling, just let them feel. what they feel and just say, yeah, I get it. Like it’s, it, and they then don’t feel guilty or ashamed for having feelings about the first day of school. And if your kid is psyched and is like, get me out of this house, I’m ready to go. Awesome. There’s, I’m not saying every kid feels the same, but I think most kids
Todd: have some sense of anxiety.
Todd: They
Cathy: do. Changing their routine is hard.
Todd: Um, and then the other part that I wanted to say, you mentioned, we don’t need to be fully ready. Are we ever, are we ever fully ready for anything? And you said, so these are the things that you can do. [00:11:00] Remind them that they don’t need to be fully ready instead of questioning their despair or excitement.
Todd: Just hold space for all of it. Remind them that they just need to be ready enough to do one thing at a time, then the next and then the next. And then before we all know it. Our bodies remember the rhythm. So I thought that was really good. Thank you. Yes.
Cathy: Yeah, like they don’t, I was just actually just talking to a girlfriend, I was just having coffee with a girlfriend and she’s got a lot of big things coming up, um, a lot of new beginnings and you know, like we all do and we were just talking about that, that she sometimes gets overwhelmed about the uncertainty and we both agreed like all she has to do is today, like there’s something I used to, as a parent coach, I used to say all the time to parents, I would say, They’d worry so much about the future.
Cathy: You know, my kid, what if my kid, what if my kid, what if my kid? And I would always say, you know, if you just do today, you don’t have to worry about the future. And I meant that literally. And I met that kind of metaphorically. And I also was trying to make the point of that. [00:12:00] If you’re just doing what’s in front, you can’t do anything about when they’re 18, when they’re 12, you know?
Cathy: And if you just focus on today and do it the best you can, a lot of those worries that you have probably won’t happen. Um, other things will happen. I, I always feel like the things that you and I have struggled with the most are things that were unpredictable. Right? The things we never expected. Right.
Cathy: And I think that’s probably typical for
Todd: most,
Cathy: right? Yeah. I think that we worry about certain things that our mind conjures up because they’re from our history or things we’ve been told to fear or something we saw on SVU Law Order and so we worry about it. But the things that actually happen are things we could have never predicted.
Todd: Um, before we get into projections, uh, we’re doing a Zen Talk tomorrow. Okay. Okay. Zen Talk 190. We’re also doing a couples night next Monday. Okay. Week from or next Monday. This Monday coming up August 26th. Uh, and we’re just going to be talking about noticing.
Cathy: Yeah. So this is a good partner discussion. If you, if you and your partner are interested, you can also [00:13:00] come on your own.
Cathy: You don’t have to have your partner, but it’s really about helping your partner understand who you are. Other people’s experiences, noticing things more, and I’m, I should be more gender specific. I have found that women tend to be the noticers. There’s a lot of like invisible labor involved there. Paying attention to what’s going on, if it be in a conversation at a table, or if it be getting a kid ready for college.
Cathy: And that sometimes that’s not something that, again, generally speaking, that men have had to do as much. Like, I was just talking with a friend the other day, and we were laughing about it. Sometimes, and you don’t, I, I want to say, Ted, I don’t think you do this as much, but how sometimes, um, you know, partners will say things like, we should really do this, or we should really make reservations, and what they’re really saying is, you should get on this.
Todd: We statements. We statements. That’s the danger of we statements. I know. Um, so we have, that’s Monday, Couples Night, uh, it’s gonna be fun, it’s on Zoom. And then lastly, uh, John Duffy on Friday the 13th of September are pretty big things coming up. But anyways. [00:14:00] Um, so this is what I want to do. Uh, we’re gonna talk about projections through two different lenses.
Todd: One is what projection is and what it means in the typical sense. But then also, uh, I am actually gonna play a little 40 second clip from Jeff Foster, which is kind of what Inspired this discussion, um, Cathy and I have two very different YouTube feeds or social media feeds.
Cathy: Yeah, I don’t do YouTube.
Todd: Uh, yes, you do Instagram and TikTok and threads and I just do YouTube.
Todd: And, uh, Jeff Foster popped up on my feed and it’s all about projections and he, we’ll get into his history and, and why it’s interesting coming from him. Uh, but first for those who struggle with the whole idea of projections, I did Figure out what the definition is by doing a little Googling. Uh, and this is what it says.
Todd: And you tell me if you agree or disagree with this. Definition, you ready? Projection is a defense mechanism where an individual unconsciously attributes their own unacceptable thoughts, [00:15:00] feelings, and impulses onto another person. This mechanism allows the individual to avoid confronting uncomfortable aspects of themselves by by perceiving those traits or emotions in others.
Todd: Correct. That sounds about right, right? Yeah,
Cathy: it does. And it shows up in many different ways. So I think a lot of times when we, you say it’s a defense mechanism, which it definitely is. And by the way, it’s not something just narcissists do. Everybody does it. Okay. So we all do projection. And sometimes we do it in terms of how we respond to something.
Cathy: And sometimes it’s about how we judge other people and how we You know, if there’s something, if there’s a person or people or a type of person that you cannot stand, like you’re just like, there’s something in you that it doesn’t mean you are that. Like, I think we become too like black and white where, oh, if you see, you know, what is it?
Cathy: If you spot it, you got it. There’s truth in that, but it doesn’t mean if someone, if you can’t stand someone, then that means you’re that. It just means it’s a part of yourself. I
Todd: have thought [00:16:00] of a few examples, personal examples, and these would be easy to relate to. Uh, your kid or my kid or our kids are locked in on their devices.
Todd: Okay. Right? Phone, tablet, laptop, whatever. So um, and I invite anybody listening who wants to play along with me. So first it’s identify a person or a group that annoys you, gets you, gets on your nerves, whatever it is. And right now I’m saying, I’m just making something up. My kid’s spending too much time on their tablet.
Todd: Okay. Okay. So that is, uh, the behavior, the quality of. My, of what I might judge of my kid for being on their tablet too long is that they’re lazy, okay? Correct. All right, and then the next question is the the investigation. The beauty in being able to work through projections that I have of my kid who’s on their tablet too much is How is it that I’m lazy?
Todd: So instead of me directing all of my energy onto my kid [00:17:00] who’s locked in on their phone, how, and I could say, let’s say I didn’t even own a phone. It doesn’t necessarily mean like, well, then I’m, I’m better than that, than my kid, because they’re addicted to their phone or their screen. And I’m not. It’s more the quality of it.
Todd: So the quality of what I’m, what I’m judging from this reactivity is that my kid is lazy.
Cathy: Okay, so explain. Yeah, I was gonna say explain, like, now make it like, I, I hear what you’re saying, but make it tighter. Like, so you walk in and you do what?
Todd: Um, I say, what are you doing on your screen? You’ve been on it for two hours.
Cathy: Right. And all that stuff that you just explained, is why you’re doing that. Yes. The big but is you are telling the story so you are completely self aware of what is happening. And I would say the vast majority of people are not self aware that it’s coming from them. They think someone else made them.
Cathy: Think that. Yeah. They think they’re right about [00:18:00] what they’re saying about the person in front of them.
Todd: And, and, and the, the wisdom that can come from these judgments that we all have. It’s a human thing. It’s not like there’s anybody out there that doesn’t judge. Is that there’s value in And looking at it, most, I think what it said in the definition is it’s mostly unconscious.
Todd: Usually projections are not something that we’re deciding to do. It just kind of happens. And the beauty is when I can see somebody else’s behavior, really inquire or investigate or take a breath and say, how is it that I am also addicted? Because I could say, well, I’m not addicted to my phone, but I tell you right now in all honesty, I’m probably addicted to my laptop.
Todd: And some of it is for work and some of it is for fun and some of it is just to escape from something. So that is, these are some of, I think the, the, the ways that we can become more self aware through the lens of projection.
Cathy: So, and then this is where it gets like more interesting to me [00:19:00] because my Zoom just went away.
Cathy: Oh
Todd: no.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: Mine didn’t, so keep, so keep talking.
Cathy: Okay.
Todd: Yeah, you’re still on.
Cathy: I am?
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: I just can’t see myself anymore.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: Okay, so should I try and join again?
Todd: Uh, if you want, but you’re on, I see you, so, uh, it’s up to you. I would say just keep talking.
Cathy: Okay, I just don’t, then I have to look at you over. Is
Todd: that such a bad thing, sweetie?
Todd: It’s
Cathy: just not how I do the show. I know, it’s breaking your
Todd: rhythm.
Cathy: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I want to pay back on. There we are. I’m back.
Todd: Oh, I was
Cathy: worried sick. It like just kicked me out and then all of a sudden it like came back. Hi everybody. I’m back. I know it didn’t bother anybody here but it bothered me. Okay, so this is why it gets like really interesting to me because the way that you just told that story as you said and then we then question like what part of me is that and why?
Cathy: Okay, I’m focusing on, you know, I, I’m on my computer all the time and so they’re on their phone and so it’s that [00:20:00] obvious of a connection. And sometimes it’s not always, yes, there’s a self awareness, but it doesn’t mean therefore you’re wrong in making that, like, noticing that your kid is on the phone all the time.
Cathy: It doesn’t mean, see, this is where it’s like sometimes projection. And we’re going to get to that. Okay, I won’t go too far, but I want to go in a little because this is what’s interesting to me because I don’t like, you know, when people talk about projection in literal terms or they. They take clinical language and then they make it more mainstream.
Cathy: It loses so much of its, like, heft, you know? Because, like, the other part of it is we, remember I was talking about we, we’re all the ages we’ve ever been live inside of us. Some of our ages have had, We have negative experiences with certain things and we’re reacting to certain things because we should because we have learned certain things where we’re like, Ooh, that doesn’t feel safe or that might not be a good choice.
Cathy: Or here’s something that happened to me. And sometimes it’s unconscious. Sometimes it’s very overt. You know, it’s like this happened to me. Therefore, this could happen to you, [00:21:00] which is a type of projection. We sometimes use a lot of non clinical language like people jumping to conclusions or making assumptions.
Cathy: And the thing is, is why there’s so much gray area when we’re talking about projection is that it’s not always bad. It doesn’t mean you need to turn the finger back on yourself. And it’s really all about you. Sometimes you are really seeing something that’s happening, but you need to be aware. Of how you are connected to it and not think that everybody else is doing things wrong except you.
Cathy: Mm-Hmm. like there. And so to your point, if you walk into a situation where the, you know, girls are older now, so it’s not like we’re monitoring their phones, but, you know, old school, if you would’ve walked in, you may say, I’m revved up about this more because I know I’m pretty addicted to my computer and I don’t want.
Cathy: I’m not willing to deal with this and so I’m going to put it all on the girls like that’s a good self awareness, but there’s also a truth and we need to monitor this. So it’s not, I sometimes think projection becomes, you know, someone’s like, well, [00:22:00] that’s not true because you’re projecting. It’s like, well, Yes, I am making some assumptions or leaps and there’s also some history to why I’ve gotten here.
Cathy: Sure. Okay.
Todd: Yeah I’m gonna share one more Projection I have or judgment I have on others. You ready?
Cathy: Okay
Todd: And I’m just making this up Let’s say I’m at Oakbrook mall and there’s a guy that tries up in a Lamborghini and a Rolex And he’s like got the cool dude sunglasses on. Mm hmm. I am Judging that person based on the car that he drives, the watch that he has around on his wrist.
Todd: So that’s my judgment and the, um, the, the quality that I would attribute to a guy like that is he’s entitled, he doesn’t work really hard, he doesn’t appreciate what he has. These are all stories I make up, right? And then for me, when I’m The use that I can get out of something like that is that how is it that I am entitled?
Todd: How is it that I don’t appreciate certain things? So like one example is my mom passed [00:23:00] away, what, seven or eight years ago. I, I was given money as a result of her death. I didn’t work for it. I didn’t do anything to deserve it. It was just given to me. So it’s easier for me to judge that guy at Oakbrook mall than to own the fact that I also have some entitlement.
Todd: I have also been given things that I didn’t work hard to.
Cathy: What if, okay, so I, everything that you said is accurate, there’s, I’m not questioning the accuracy, but I’m going to push back a little bit because I don’t, I think it’s a, what, that example is a bit apples and oranges because yes, the thing that I agree with is you can look at someone who has a lot of stuff and things and then have a moment of, you know, for the things that you have, or, you know, I have this amount of money because of something.
Cathy: And, but the assumption that it’s like that guy, you don’t know if he was given things. You don’t know if he’s macked out his credit cards, you don’t know. And so, You know, because like I said, you’re always like, well, what does that [00:24:00] mean about me? I’m entitled to, you can have a judgment of that person based on the fact that they have taken material items to be the most important thing, or at least it appears that way.
Cathy: And again, this is again, the assumptions and jumping to conclusions and be interested less about that, wow, I’m entitled to, and more about what’s going on with that person. How do I feel about that? Like, do, do, why don’t, I don’t wear anything shiny. Am I doing that so people think I’m a certain way? Am I doing that because I really don’t care?
Cathy: It’s, it’s interesting in a self awareness way, but it’s not always so literal. Like, because you, because Todd, you, Of course we all have entitlement, but I would say on the list of things about you that maybe you feel challenged by entitlement, you’re not very entitled.
Todd: I’m not, but there is an entitled one in me.
Todd: Of course.
Cathy: My point is everybody has some sort of entitlement, even if it’s a, like you are, you’re a little entitled when you’re driving.
Todd: Sure. [00:25:00] There you go. I think we talked
Cathy: about that last week.
Todd: I can, I can go all the way up even though the construction signs say it is much earlier.
Cathy: Yesterday. Good night.
Cathy: You, I don’t know if you know what I’m going to say, but I know exactly what
Todd: you’re going
Cathy: to say. You were about to go. I
Todd: was not
Cathy: going
Todd: to go. I was looking. I was curious to see.
Cathy: So I love that you know what I was going to say. Oh
Todd: yeah. So we took two different cars to drop our kid off at Iowa yesterday and there was an accident or construction or whatever.
Todd: And there was a big long line and I peeped my car over, you know, we’re going like two miles an hour. I peeped my car over just so I could see if they were in the same line that I was trying to get into. Yes. Okay. And it turns out. that they were. So I moved back in.
Cathy: Well, and we were on a little bit on a timeline because my daughter had to move in at a specific time.
Cathy: And so she’s like, you need to keep up with us because you have the car with all the stuff. So I was like, he is gonna, you’re not, I’m going to say this. You’re not going to force me to go on the shoulder, but I’m like, if you go on the shoulder, I have to.
Todd: Well, that’s such an interesting, cause it doesn’t [00:26:00] like I, I judged the guy with a Rolex and Lamborghini in a way, and it’s not always so.
Todd: Uh, clean. Correct. So it could be that I’m not entitled at all when it comes to what I wear on my wrist or what type of car I drive, but I am entitled in the way that I drive through traffic. So that we need to kind of like expand what all this means, because it’d be like, well, I don’t do that. So this has nothing to do with me.
Todd: And there, it requires some curiosity, some exploration. Self exploration. That’s what this podcast is all about is self awareness and self exploration.
Cathy: And that’s exactly why I was saying this is a messy concept. And it’s not as clean as, well, I’m entitled too. You don’t have to be self depreciating in the process.
Cathy: It’s not a, you know, again, the spot it, you got it. There’s truth in that, but I also believe that that can be, um, so self depreciating that it keeps you from ever having a judgment about anything.
Todd: One, and one of the questions that I, I hope to get to is what’s the difference between me [00:27:00] judging that guy and me coming home and telling you about it and just venting, like healthy venting about, something I saw.
Cathy: Exactly. And where does it come from and why? Because I think that, and that’s the fun part. It’s less about, I am that thing. Because you and I have had these conversations about projection for years and I’ve hated the, I come home and complain about something or something bothers me. And it’s like, well, how are you like that person?
Cathy: I’m like, that’s not the game I’m playing right now. I’m internally struggling. Let me, let me release. Let me talk about this. And that, and the more I talk about it, I then come to the realization, not how I’m exactly like the person I’m judging, but why I struggle with it. So for example, I’ll just, you know, one of our, I could do this with any of our daughters, but it’s easiest with my middle daughter cause she’s a huge justice warrior.
Cathy: So there’s certain things that piss her off quickly. And it’s unfairness where someone’s taking more than they’ve been told to take, where someone is not acknowledging. They’re a privilege where someone, and she’s pretty [00:28:00] certain about it, and, and, you know, we have all these things in the house that my daughter used to draw and write when she was like three or four.
Cathy: She’s always been a justice warrior. She’s like, she’s a middle child too, right? Doesn’t, it’s not that crazy. Makes sense. Um, and so when she gets pissed off at someone, I know what it’s around. Yeah. And, and now, then you may say, well, she’s got none of that. Of course she does. Sometimes she comes in and explains, she called, remember last week, she called, she had worked all day, my daughter, and she called home and asked her youngest sister to go get her food.
Cathy: and have it ready for her when she got home from work because she was tired. And I was like, well, wait a second. Why are you picking up her food? And, you know, to her, she’s an acts of service person. That’s how she feels. Love is if someone does things for her like that, because she doesn’t ask for a lot, um, in that realm, she’s pretty self sufficient and she just couldn’t understand why we thought that was crazy.
Cathy: And so that could be [00:29:00] seen as something that. You know, she’s holding on too tight to, yeah, like, and that that is like, she can’t see that as an entitlement when really, you know what I mean? Like we all have these pieces, but she can, you know, I just thought that was so funny. I’m like, why are you going out to get her food?
Todd: So now I want to transition this conversation to, um, how the idea of projection can become weaponized. Okay. Okay. So I want to play 40 seconds. So Jeff Foster is a thought leader. He’s been a spiritual leader, whatever, written books. I happen to be a big fan of his, but I don’t think he calls himself a spiritual.
Todd: I don’t think he does either. I don’t, I think he may, maybe he used to, but he doesn’t anymore. And the way that he conveys his messages, uh, much more. Rounded. Yeah. And I think it used to be. Me
Cathy: too.
Todd: Um, and this is, I don’t know when this is from. This is from two months ago and it’s the title of, it’s an eight minute clip.
Todd: We’re going to play about 40 seconds of it. Uh, it’s called, it’s all your projection unless it’s not, and this is how it starts out. [00:30:00]
So everything is your projection. What you see out there in the world isn’t really out there in the world. It’s all in you. If you see anger in someone else, they’re not really angry.
You’re just projecting it. It’s all in you. If you see sadness in someone else, they’re not really sad. It’s all in you. If you see that someone else is lying or they’re concealing the truth or they’re manipulating, no, it’s not, it’s not really in them. All of that is in you. The lies are in you. The manipulation is in you.
Everything is your projection. Now, so that’s an idea. In the wild and wonderful world of spiritual teachings, that, that idea that everything is a projection, um, is quite popular. And, look, there’s some truth in it, sometimes, and I want to explain why it’s also untrue. It’s true sometimes, and sometimes it’s totally untrue.
When I was a kid
Todd: Alright, so then he goes on with the story, but that, that sets it up pretty well. So, how do you want to start out? So,
Cathy: it’s my favorite thing. So, okay, Jeff Foster is, I don’t see him, you know, Todd follows him, I really don’t, but I’ve appreciated his [00:31:00] story because when, when Todd and I first became acquainted with him and read his books, he was super into the spiritual world, which I was too, you know, everything was about universe, everything, things I still believe.
Cathy: But because of situations I’ve had in my life with cults and, and cultish thinking and people who have not been great, um, spiritual leaders in my life, um, I have shedded a lot of that where I feel like I’m more down to earth. And, um, while not letting go of what was good. And I feel like Jeff Foster, he, he has, I’ve kind of watched him have a very similar experience where he was all like, he’s got this special knowledge and no one else has it.
Cathy: And now he’s like, dude, I’m a human. And, and I love people like that. I think spiritual growth is a circle. I think we start very grounded and then we become very pie in the sky and think we’re very special and think we have more answers than other people. And that were, you know, the more evolved ones.
Cathy: And we come back to realizing. Everybody’s the same. Um. Yeah,
Todd: his, his feet are, are placed [00:32:00] firmly on the ground. Firmly
Cathy: on the ground. Right now. So I really appreciate that. And then the other thing is, is the projection that he’s referring to, and again, it’s very connected to what we were talking about before, but I have found in studying cults that they, that’s exactly what they do, is they, and when I say cults, I mean the definition of a cult.
Cathy: It can be sometimes a religion. It can be a one person, one on one. It’s basically anybody who is trying to convince you that they have the answer and you don’t. Right? Right. Right. And so a very cultish tactic is they bring you into the fold and they start telling you that things are projections, which initially is a relief because someone will say that, that person, you don’t need to let that person make you angry.
Cathy: Just don’t get angry. You have more power than you think. You have more control than you think. And initially, it’s a relief because you realize all that feeling that you’re bringing up, you don’t have to do it anymore. You’re like, I’m not going to let them make me feel that way. I’m going to feel something else and I’m going to not do that.
Cathy: But then it gets used against you where anytime you have a judgment, a fear, a worry, um, a [00:33:00] complaint, then it’s like, well, what do I do? Why are you projecting that onto that person? Why, what is it in you that’s so angry that you’re seeing anger? And all of a sudden it’s used as a manipulation tactic to tone you down and to tame you.
Cathy: And so this is why I love the language as sometimes it’s a projection. Unless it’s not, which is you are having a real experience and even if you assume someone’s angry and they say to you, but I’m not angry, I’m not angry. You’re feeling something that feels like anger and maybe it isn’t anger to them.
Cathy: Maybe it’s discomfort. You can have that conversation about the right semantics, but there is a self trust about I’m having an experience and I’m not going to blame myself for having a feeling about it. Maybe I am wrong. And maybe I am working from my past or history, or maybe I’m seeing something that’s not there, but that’s something I figure out as I discuss it.
Cathy: That’s why therapy is so important is that sometimes we come into therapy and say, I’m so [00:34:00] angry, I’m so angry. And then the more you talk to your therapist about it, you realize you’re sad, you realize you’re scared, but you have to have the initial feeling to get there. And what, what he’s talking about that when someone is telling you.
Cathy: You’re just projecting. That’s a thought stopping. Comment. That is, well, you shouldn’t be feeling that way, so stop doing it. And that’s, not only is that not fair, that’s controlling. That’s someone controlling you.
Todd: Well, and even just your comment of, you should stop feeling that way because it’s wrong. Like, there’s no wrong feelings.
Todd: There’s wrong ways of expressing feelings. If I express anger by beating somebody up on the street that didn’t deserve to be beat up for whatever reason, that’s not good. But it’s, uh, the idea of, Let me have my experience. And then we can start doing all the self awareness stuff. Correct. But what I sometimes do is like, oh, well, something upset, something upsetting just happened.
Todd: Whatever. My kid gets, has a bad experience at school. And [00:35:00] I will sometimes be like, well, there’s nothing I can do about it. So I’m just going to skip over this emotion and just say, oh, it’ll get better tomorrow or whatever. I want to give myself permission to have the experience, to feel sad, to feel angry, to feel joy, to feel afraid.
Todd: And then. Afterwards, then maybe I could do all that self help stuff, but not at the expense of somebody’s in front of me and I have a, a, an emotional response to that person.
Cathy: Right. And again, I’m, I’m, you know, beating this to death because this has become super important to me. And I feel like it’s very helpful to people who are maybe on the path in, in a different way, as far as their own spiritual awakening is that sometimes things just are.
Cathy: Do you know what I mean? Like, sometimes, like, for example Sometimes somebody is a jerk. Somebody, like, Todd and I, Todd said something the last week in the car that was, I, I was like, when he said it, we couldn’t really talk about it because the girls were in the car and I was like, I actually said to him, let’s talk about this later because I know I’m feeling [00:36:00] frustrated.
Cathy: And then when I brought it up to him, he’s like, so it sounds like Something I said to you triggered fear in you. And I’m like, no, that’s not what happened. You said something and it made me mad. Period. Like, this isn’t a deep, we don’t need to go deep on this. Like if, initially, like maybe later you can say, I could, I could say to you, the reason that that bothered me is because in the end, uh, I felt like I was doing all these things and you were saying, but you’re not doing enough.
Cathy: And so could it be like fear about not being worthy? Sure. We can trace everything back, but there are times when you just need to have your feet planted on the ground and say, I’m just angry. So help like acknowledge that rather than explain to me why I’m feeling angry. That’s the work for me to do. Do you know what I mean?
Cathy: That’s my job. Yeah. And if you, you and I can have a discussion that allows me to get there. And now I want to say, if you haven’t done any of this self awareness work at all, then maybe that conversation does need to come up from the very beginning of like, what’s going on in you? [00:37:00] You know what I mean?
Cathy: That’s why there’s no like right or wrong here because I don’t know where you are. Like person who’s listening right now, I don’t know if you talk about self awareness in your home, if you don’t talk about it at all, if you talk about it a little, you know, how you talk about it. So sometimes it is important, but there are times that even that To me, and I’ll use Todd because he, we’ve already talked this through, felt like a spiritual bypass of, Oh, this really isn’t about me.
Cathy: You’re feeling triggered and fearful. And I’m like, well, wait a second. There was also something you did that, that brought this up regardless of why, let’s not make this about that. I have a problem. Yeah.
Todd: The real conversation happened in real time about what we’re going to do next.
Correct.
Todd: And I, it’s not like I hammered the whole idea home of, oh, this must have something to do with your childhood.
Todd: You said it
Cathy: once. I said it once.
Todd: And, but there was a, um, with that, that, evades [00:38:00] everything we’re talking about. And what we’re talking about is I said something, you said something, I said something, it didn’t land well, you said something back, it didn’t land well. And then I, there was at least a moment where I’m like, all right, let’s go back in your childhood and figure this out.
Todd: Not a good idea.
Cathy: Let’s
Todd: figure this out in real time of what, what was it that I said? How was it that I said it that made you angry? And so anyways.
Cathy: Yeah. Versus like, oh, you were angry. Tell me why. That’s what human beings do. Do you know what I mean? People who feel too evolved or too, you know, into the psychology of why people do things.
Cathy: Um, and I’ve been that person. This is why I point the finger at it. Not because I’m above it, but because I’ve done it. Not only have I done it to other people, I’ve had lots of teachers do it to me to a point where I felt like it was harmful. I’ve, you know, I, you and I have been going through this process for however long that sometimes you can come on too coachy to me where I’m like, just be you.
Cathy: Like I don’t need the coach language and that there is a, and I think some people [00:39:00] listening, Todd would be like, Oh, I do anything for coach language. Yeah. Right. Because they, their partner or person in their life won’t even touch self awareness. So they’re just getting like these blunt reactions that are uncomfortable.
Cathy: So I guess I’m just trying to make room for all of these things. But the most important part of what Jeff Foster said is not everything is your fault because you’re feeling it.
Yeah.
Cathy: Like It’s not like, wow, you know, another thing that I hear from, especially women is, especially if they’ve gone on some sort of emotional journey or, or, you know, making choices to make themselves healthier emotionally, spiritually is then they’ll get sick or something will happen and they’ll say, how did I bring this on?
Cathy: Yeah. Okay. And that is very harmful too, because there are parts of it where we can say, well, you know, maybe I need to drink more water, get more sleep. Yes. But it’s not all your fault.
Todd: Everything that
Cathy: happens.
Todd: Sometimes you, you drank out of a pop can as somebody who had the flu.
Cathy: Correct. [00:40:00] Yeah. Or sometimes someone sneezed on the chair or the seat on the plane before you got there and you didn’t know that.
Cathy: That wasn’t your fault. Yeah. You know, there’s not, you know, and also it is not just about us. The world, like, I don’t know about you, Todd, but I don’t know anybody who caused COVID to happen, you know? Um, there is, you know, we, we, not everything is because we brought it in. Very spiritual language, and again, talking about manifesting, which I do believe in, but the, where it goes wrong or shadowy is where we’re like, we’re bringing in, we give ourselves too much credit.
Cathy: for things that we get thinking that we did it all, or we blame ourselves for everything we don’t get thinking we’re not manifesting or meditating hard enough. And we aren’t that powerful, you guys. I mean, we are, like, it’s the, it’s the paradox of we are so special and big, and we are also a tiny speck in the middle of nowhere.
Cathy: Like, both things are true. And so can we do big things? [00:41:00] Yes. But when big things don’t happen, it’s not always because we weren’t gritty enough. So, these are, as you can tell, I get really worked up about these things because I work with people and, well, let me say the truth, because I had to go through so much work around this.
Todd: Right.
Cathy: Like, this is really me. My butt on that is now I work with women or talk with women or even my own kids and their friends about these things and how they, depending on where they are in this journey or other people in their lives who have blamed them. Um. Yeah. You know, it’s just, it gets a little dicey.
Todd: I was, uh, you know, cause a lot of what we talk about in the show is the paradox of things. Yes. How it’s a both and, like, yeah, maybe, maybe on Tuesday I’m projecting some of my crap onto my child and then on Thursday my child just does something and there’s no projection at all. It’s just, they just do something.
Todd: They’re just,
Cathy: and it has nothing to do with you.
Todd: So it reminded me of the paradox at the end of Forrest Gump and I want to play the clip. Oh, good. I can’t find it, but he [00:42:00] does. I don’t know if we have a destiny or if we’re all just floating around accidental like on a breeze, but I think maybe it’s both.
Todd: Maybe both is happening at the same time. This fits well into what we’re talking about. There are, there are times when I put my crap onto somebody else and then there’s other times this has nothing to do with me whatsoever. It has to do with the other. And that’s, that’s true. That’s the sweet spot.
Todd: That’s the paradox that we’re always trying to kind of figure out.
Cathy: So I’m just to pull that one out. That’s a perfect example of sometimes how we bypass where someone will be mad at us and we’ll be like, it’s their projection. I’m not going to get caught up in that. You
Todd: did
Cathy: something. Something happens.
Cathy: And in the end, after discussing it, it may be more that other person that could be, it could be that they were projecting. It could be. But if you are in a relationship with someone, you, you acknowledge what they’re telling you. You, you go into that conversation with a willingness to hear, and then you may find maybe there was something you did need [00:43:00] that you didn’t recognize, or you at least get to know this person better.
Todd: Well, what do you think about this? Because I do think, uh, not that I want to do this, but don’t you think there’s learning possibilities in every experience that we have? Of course. So, um, I, I just wanted to say that because the problem is sometimes learning gets weaponized. I’d be like, what am I here to learn from as this person who I’m in relationship with continues to cross my boundaries?
Todd: Like sometimes you just got to stop the relationship and, and forget about all the learning. You got to keep yourself safe. And then maybe afterwards you can kind of figure out. Yeah, why did that person enter my life? What, what did, what did I get out of that? But it’s not, sometimes I hop to the learning before I deal with it.
Cathy: Yeah. And when, so if you’re talking about like kind of a toxic relationship or a toxic experience, there’s so many variables in that because there are like a, you know, an emotionally abusive relationship, which [00:44:00] I was in, for a while and some may look at that and say how did you even get into that, what’s wrong with you or why did it take so long and I don’t know, I don’t know why it took so long, I don’t know but once I was out it was really interesting to me, right?
Cathy: It was really like not only was, was I done with that experience but I was like whoa, you know it’s kind of, being in an emotionally abusive relationship is similar to being in a cult which I have been susceptible to or cultish kind of things because I wanted to someone to be like, you’re special and you have this and you’re important.
Cathy: And so I have a susceptibility and people who think they have no susceptibility have more susceptibility, by the way. I just love to throw that out there. Cause when people are like, I would never get into that. I’m like, you don’t know until you’re convinced. Anybody who’s
Todd: so convinced is, is at.
Cathy: They are because they, they’re so convinced that they wouldn’t, that they won’t see red flags.
Cathy: So they’re like, that would never happen. But wait, let me finish this thought. So then after getting out of that kind of experience, you can look back on it [00:45:00] and have some hindsight after you’ve healed. You know, in a way where you’ve taken care of yourself and then you can have some hindsight. But when someone’s in the middle of something, when they’re going through something or not out of something yet, there are no lessons to be pulled yet because that’s not where, that’s not where they are and you, you don’t even want to try.
Cathy: And people who get out of something and say, well, what did I learn? Why did this person come in again? They’re jumping. They haven’t grieved.
Todd: Don’t skip to the lesson. Yes. And that’s what I do a lot. Yeah, because you don’t want to feel the grief of it. I don’t want to feel it. Feeling equals vulnerability.
Todd: And vulnerability, there’s a part of me that thinks vulnerability is still a weakness. Even though I preach vulnerability is a strength, blah, blah, blah, there’s still a part of me that does not want to feel because that means I’m vulnerable and means that I might die.
Cathy: Right. Cause I was going to say yes to all that, which is like man box stuff, but I also just think you feel afraid of vulnerability.
Cathy: Feeling like you just don’t want to be wrong. You don’t want to disappoint. You don’t want to look at yourself in a different way. You don’t want your [00:46:00] identity to be shifted. There’s so many. That’s why, again, it gets so messy because we can sum it up with, I’m just a man and I don’t want to be vulnerable.
Cathy: No, that that’s part of it. But what are the things you don’t want to feel? What are the things you don’t want to look in the eye? And, and I, you know, similarly, something that I think I could say Todd and I both practice is once I’m terrified of something, I know I have to do something. Cause the fact that I’m so terrified by it means like I have to talk to someone or call someone and tell them something I don’t want to do, or I want to ignore something.
Cathy: And I’m like, okay, it doesn’t mean I have to jump in and be abrupt. It’s just, I’m like, Oh my God. Well,
Todd: you, you tune into your body in a And I’m sure that you’re thinking these thoughts too, but if we, that’s our body sometimes knows faster than our brain does. Yes. Um, so anyway, so as we get close to closing the show, I have a fork in the road and one of it is how, how can listeners [00:47:00] help, uh, how can we help listeners with this through the lens of parenting?
Todd: Like how do we project our crap under our kids are like, how does this discussion get framed out in parenting? And I, I didn’t prepare you for that. So you may not have nothing. And the other part. and you can choose either of these two, is it’s not just negative projections, it could be positive projections.
Todd: True. Like we project the goodness in somebody else and we don’t actually see them. Right. Because they, we think that they walk on water. Yeah,
Cathy: I think it’s the two things, the two parts of this that are most important in parenting is number one, realize when you’re projecting your own dreams on your child, when you aren’t acknowledging who they are or even asking questions about who they are and just telling them who to be and who you’re telling them to be is the idealized version of yourself.
Cathy: Okay. So. You need to play baseball. You need to be a dancer. You need to play piano. You need to be nice to everybody. You need to dress up. You need to get your hair cut. You want them to be the [00:48:00] idealized version of you that maybe you were not able or continue to be able to uphold because no human being can.
Cathy: Like all these ex, all this excellence that we want to be, beautiful, perfect, all these things. We can’t uphold all those things, so can you imagine what you’re doing to your child and asking them to be that. So there’s projected dreams, and then there’s also, um, when you are, when your child comes home and says, nobody sat with me at lunch, and you are then projecting how your child feels because you experienced something like that when you were a kid.
Cathy: Now, if your child is coming home and saying, Nobody sat with me at lunch, and they’re sad, that’s real, you know, that, that is real, but they, and this is a total lesson I have learned, um, and so I’ll just use my lesson. What I realized, because I learned, I worked through this in therapy, is a lot of times when something would be happening with one of my kids, I would feel it so intensely because it was something I felt or I worried about or something I didn’t get or did get that I thought they deserved.
Cathy: You know, it doesn’t matter where [00:49:00] that falls. And I just had so much feeling about it. And I’m like, this is how they’re feeling. They must be feeling this. And my therapist was very clear with me and saying, they are not you. They haven’t had your history. They haven’t had your trauma. So they are not feeling the feelings you think they’re feeling.
Cathy: They’re having their own feelings and their own experience based on their history. So you can’t project what you’re feeling onto them. You just have to be there for them. And, you know, that was a real line bender for me because we, I do walk around thinking I know how people feel, and I think I am intuitive enough to read people, but I don’t, I don’t always know why, and I don’t always have the right answer, and I don’t, you know, I kind of get energy from people, but I don’t.
Cathy: I need to then listen to that person, and hear why they feel sad, or what they think they should do, rather than projecting all of my fears and history on them. Does that make sense?
Todd: It totally does. [00:50:00] Okay. Love it. Um, so this is Pod’s wrap up from the, for the podcast. Okay. Let’s hear it. Phil Donahue, rest in peace.
Todd: Okay. Saxophone is an underrated instrument. Listen for it everybody. Um, back to school blues, just hold space for the kids. Yeah. Uh, projection is, um, when it’s used through the lens of self awareness in a productive, positive way is identify the person, notice the quality and see how it’s true about you.
Todd: And then, um, and when the, the culty part of it, how would you summarize that? I
Cathy: would say, um, you know, the title of the show again is, you know, projection is helpful and let projection, is that what the title is?
Todd: Um, It is, I’ll tell you in a second, our
Cathy: projection.
Todd: It’s all projection. It’s all projection.
Todd: It’s all your projection.
Cathy: Unless it’s not. So, sorry everybody, there’s no certainty in this. Sometimes you are projecting and sometimes you’re not. Sometimes there’s just something happening in that moment that’s uncomfortable. It’s called something happened. It’s called something happened. Someone pissed you [00:51:00] off.
Cathy: Someone cut in front of you. Someone stepped on your foot. You aren’t projecting pain. You, you’re, you’re feeling pain and it just happened and that’s okay. That’s human. And for you, and when someone tells you it’s just your projection, you don’t need to feel that they are trying to control you.
Todd: Um, what about my traffic example?
Todd: And I didn’t bring it up this time, but I always love this is when I get mad at traffic in the car, cause I’m running late and I am as much of a problem as anybody else on the road. Yeah. Is that a projection? Which part? I’m, I’m getting mad at the amount of cars in front of me, stopping me from going to where I want to go, yet the guy behind me could be saying the same thing about me.
Cathy: I don’t, I mean, I’m sure we could figure out a way to make that projection, but I think what’s happening is that it’s frustrating that things aren’t easier. Yeah. It’s also frustrating that I didn’t realize this was going to happen. So uncertainty, it’s frustrating that I didn’t leave on time. I don’t think that’s usually you usually leave on time, but like someone from like [00:52:00] going to Iowa yesterday, we had to be there at a certain time and we stopped to get food.
Cathy: We thought we had plenty of time. And then of course, Murphy’s law. An accident. So we’re gonna be late and we get frustrated at everyone else around us because we didn’t expect it. We didn’t plan for it. We didn’t. So we think everybody on the road are a bunch of jerks and that we’re the only ones who need to get somewhere.
Cathy: Right. Explaining it that way makes us kind of laugh at ourselves, right? Right. Um, so I don’t, so we could figure out a way to make that projection, but I think it’s more other things. Yeah,
Todd: I hear you. Um, all right. In closing, Jeremy Kraft, he’s a bald headed beauty. He might be helping us out.
Cathy: Yes. He might be helping us with something in our house and I’m kind of excited.
Cathy: We’ll see.
Todd: Uh, 630 956 1800. If you live in the Chicagoland area, avidco. net. Uh, we’ll catch you all next week. Keep trying.
[00:53:00]
