[00:00:00]

Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd, and this is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is episode number 814. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is that the best predictor of a child’s wellbeing is a parent’s self understanding.

Todd: On today’s show, we are gonna head on over to Cathy’s Substack. Um, she, it comes out twice a week now, right? What’s the deal?

Cathy: Yeah, it comes out on Friday, um, which is my free, um, article that I share with everybody. And then on Wednesday I share something called Ping, which is a paid subscription. And the whole goal of Ping is to how to stay connected to yourself and your kids and your partner, and how to focus on what means the most to you.

Cathy: [00:01:00] So I really like that. So if you wanna grab a subscription, I, it’s at the cheapest, uh, possible level. It’s five bucks. It’s five bucks. Come on. Yeah,

Todd: it’s

Cathy: easy. Get on board. Yeah.

Todd: Um, but today we’re gonna be talking about sweetie Substack, why it’s normal for kids friendships to change. And it’s funny, at the intro of today’s podcast, we actually gave everybody kind of a big reveal.

Todd: Uhhuh, do you wanna say anything about the reveal? Sure. Go ahead.

Cathy: So if you, hopefully if you, you didn’t fast forward through the beginning, which I tend to do in some podcasts, but basically we announced that Zen Parenting is changing a little bit, starting June 1st. The title is actually going to be Zen Pop Parenting.

Cathy: So why you ask, why would we change such a thing? Why, why it’s been 15 years? Why would we do that? Because Todd and I are ready to modernize a little bit. Um, we have, uh, as I just said, I’ll say it again, for 15 years, been doing the. Basically a very similar format, um, very focused on self-awareness, mindfulness, compassion, um, [00:02:00] and parenting.

Cathy: And we love that and we will continue to do that in the new iteration of our podcast. The big but the big changes that pop culture is going to be the focal point. We are going to talk about these things, but come off of pop culture and. The thing is, is we also have a podcast that we haven’t recorded a podcast on for probably a year called Pop Culturing.

Cathy: Um, and so it’s separate from this and it’s a little bit of a combination of the two, but I think it’s a, the structure we’re using is really cool and fun and I think wonderful for the listeners. I think it’s going to feel very organized and tight. And hopefully funny and enlightening. That’s our goal.

Cathy: And bottom line is Todd and I come down here every Tuesday, or no, what’s today? Monday, every Monday morning and record a podcast. And we, we love it. Like it’s kind of one of those jobs that you forget as a job and we want to keep loving it. So it’s like, what do Chad and I love to talk about. [00:03:00] Pop culture.

Cathy: That’s right. And how it relates to us today. So it’s gonna be a lot of, uh, gen X stuff. It’s gonna be, you know, a lot of ways that we were raised and why we are who we are and how that benefits or can make it difficult when we’re raising our own kids. And I think the more we tap into that kind of pop culturey, uh, you know, way of thinking, I think the better we are and understanding our kids.

Cathy: ’cause that’s where they are right now.

Hmm.

Cathy: The music they’re listening to is their life, the shows they’re watching, that’s what they’re gonna remember. That’s what’s reflecting their life right now. And we need to join them there. Um, if not, we don’t need to watch everything they watch, but we need to at least understand how much it influenced us as well.

Cathy: Pop culture and then go from there. So I think it’s gonna be fun, don’t you Ted?

Todd: I do. And I just want to be able to laugh, and as much as I’ve loved doing this version of the podcast for 15 years, it has kind of an element of personal growth and seriousness. And Cathy and I are still gonna [00:04:00] bring that.

Cathy: Yeah.

Todd: It’s just, we’re gonna kind of maybe emphasize more on the laughing part of it. And the fun. And the fun

Cathy: and like the, you know. Media, like culture, like what’s going on in the world. I, one thing that I hope to bring at the beginning of every episode before we tap into our regular structure is, you know, here’s a few things you could ask your kids about this week.

Cathy: You know, like, here’s some things going on in the culture. So if you want to ask them how they feel about something, you do not have to be the knowledgeable one. You do not have to be the one telling your kids, I’m gonna bring up things like. You know, ask them if they know about this new video game, ask them if they know about this new song.

Cathy: You know, I’m always gonna share a few things that you can then connect with your kids about and, and let them tell you so. Onward. You know, we will, that will drop. Our new format will drop on June 3rd and we think you’ll love it. So

Todd: don’t go anywhere. So to be clear, it’s gonna go from Zen Parenting Radio to Zen Pop Parenting, um, and it’s gonna be a high emphasis of stuff you and I grew [00:05:00] up on.

Todd: Correct? Is it fair? That’s fair to say. Mm-hmm.

Cathy: And, um, and relating it to now and again, just for clarification, you don’t need to do anything. You’re already subscribed. Yeah. We are not changing platforms. We are not starting over. We’re just, um, modernizing.

Todd: Um, so with that in mind, I decided to do, um, some of that pop culture music movie thing for today’s show because you wrote a substack on friendships.

Todd: Mm-hmm. And I’m gonna start this out just by playing a few songs about friendships, and you have to tell me, sweetie, which ones, uh, which one you like the most. I think I’m gonna play two or three. All right. Okay. All right. So you’ve probably heard this.

We know

Cathy: that

the,

Todd: this is kind of about friendships, right?

Cathy: Yes. So. Lean on, lean on me. I like the other one better. The, the, the club novo

Todd: version of this song. Maybe I’ll pull that one up. Pull that

Cathy: up. ’cause it’s

Todd: more fun, but I’m not gonna do that. And then here’s another one about friends.

Sure. [00:06:00]

Cathy: This is our buddy, um, ring. Do

Todd: Hello. Not friends. We’re not gonna talk about getting high with our friends though, sweetie. This is not an explicit show. That’s not this. Um, and then you’re child friendly. You might have one or two more. Um, I love this one.

Cathy: I was gonna say, you’re gonna play white stripes. I know.

Cathy: Find

the other

Cathy: lean on me.

Todd: Alright, hold on. You’re Don’t disrupt my mojo here. Oh, sorry babe. Uh, and then this one, this reminds me of you.

Me? Yes. I Body is circle.

Todd: This is such a nineties girl song. I

Cathy: know. I love that. Edie Bril.

Todd: So if you could only have one of those songs, what would it be?

Cathy: Beatie, Raquel.

Todd: I figured,

Cathy: I mean that’s my, the, I was in love with that song.

Cathy: The reason it [00:07:00] probably reminds you of me is ’cause I put it on your mix tape.

Todd: There you go.

Cathy: Um, that I made for you senior year in college. ’cause it reminded me of my buddies. Who are the

Todd: other people? Club? Novo. These people? Yes. All right, let me see if I can do that. Oh no. See, this is where you and I differ.

Todd: Like why would they mess up such a good song?

Cathy: It’s fun.

Todd: I mean, it’s still pretty good. It’s just not as good as the bill. Bill Willers one.

Cathy: This was, uh, junior year in high school, so it was your sophomore

Todd: year in high school. Sweetie, I love it when you tell us what year you heard the song,

Cathy: I am sorry. I just do that and it drives my kids crazy. I

Todd: just don’t understand like, is it relevant of what year?

Todd: Yes. Was.

Cathy: Because every, when the song comes on, I can see where I am, I can see who I’m with. So I remember the year and it’s meaningful to me. Okay. And for other people, like if someone’s like, when did this song come out? Well, I’m 53. That came out around the time I was a [00:08:00] sophomore or junior in high school, so it was about 87.

Cathy: So.

Todd: Very good.

Cathy: That’s all.

Todd: Um, I’m gonna do my best to s in like two sentences, summarize what your substack was about. Okay, let’s hear it. The title is Why it’s Normal for Your Kids’ Friendship to Change. I liked how you talked a little bit about how friendships, most friendships are not built to last over the long haul, let’s be honest.

Todd: Correct. Like we all have had thousands of friends and the ones that you happen to be having right now, some of them may have been from childhood, but most of them are probably. Recently, right? Like people’s positions, situations, geographies, kind of ebb and flow. Um, and it’s not supposed to, it’s friendships are not supposed to be held tightly.

Todd: I, I don’t think,

Cathy: I mean, it just depends like this, it, it’s why it’s such a fun discussion because there are, there is no right or wrongs and there’s no story that is the right way and there’s no way of being that’s the wrong way. It’s a very, um, fluid. Um, experience for every individual.

Todd: Yeah. Um, [00:09:00] and you talk a little bit about social climbing, which we’re gonna talk about today.

Todd: Sure. You talk a little bit about role modeling. Mm-hmm. How is it that we show up in our friendships? Um, but I always like to ask you first about what inspired you to write this blog? Was it something that our kids are going through or it just. Happened to come across, or we did that presentation, that’s why

Cathy: we did a, uh, presentation for the Deerfield Parent series.

Cathy: Um, and, um, our friend one day asked us to do it and she said, really the topic that most of these parents wanna hear about is friendship.

Yeah.

Cathy: Um, she said, it’s been kind of high on the priority list for a long time, so will you guys do this? And we’re like, sure. Um, so we did a whole presentation about how to talk with our kids about friendships.

Cathy: And because Todd and I focus mostly on parents and parental self-awareness, how we can get a grip when our kids are going through changes with friendships. I think that there are many reasons why we get very worked up about our kids changing [00:10:00] friendships, um, or lack of friendships or lack of deep friendships, or too many friendships.

Cathy: Like, it’s like our kids. There is no perfect space. Right? Sure. And. We get very worked up about it because we get very involved in that. Um, either the very basic level, this is what a lot of parents were asking about, maybe we are friends with parents, uh, the parents of the kids that our kids hang out with.

Cathy: And so if our kids start breaking off and, and having different lives and not being friends with the same people, we feel uncomfortable. With these parent friends, because a lot of times there is a feeling of like, why is your kid leaving my kid? Or, you know, there’s, we get way over involved. Um, and then there’s things like, you know, in the same realm, like if we’re, if our kid’s on a baseball team or on a dance team or on a soccer team, and then we get very involved with the parents and then we get worried about who the kid’s hanging out with and is the kid being invited?

Cathy: And then even if we’re standing back far enough, we hurt when our [00:11:00] kids hurt. We feel bad when our kids are having hard experiences and we feel compelled to do something when our kids are not being nice to other kids. Yeah.

Todd: We leap to problem solving. Um, so for me, just to kinda give you my. Uh, as I was reading your Substack, um, I thought about, um, you know, when I was growing up, whoever was in my class was gonna, you know, I’m talking about like middle school and grade school here.

Todd: Sure. Whoever was in my class is probably gonna be who I’m hanging out with most of the time.

Cathy: Yeah.

Todd: And then you get to either middle school or high school, and it is, uh, who do you sit with at lunch? Mm-hmm. Is really kind of the most obvious. I don’t know, like

Cathy: identification group, group identification.

Cathy: Yeah.

Todd: With where you are now. One thing that we never had to handle, but these kids have to handle is group chats. Mm-hmm. Which I don’t pretend to, um, quite, you know, understand that much. Like some people get, some kids get kicked out of a group chat, some kids get invited in. It’s a big deal. And then to speak about older kids, it’s [00:12:00] about like roommates, right?

Todd: Like college roommates like you live. That’s a really, I remember in college I had like four good friends, but we. We decided to get an apartment, but there was only four person apartments, so you had to like, exclude somebody. Where

Cathy: did the other person go? You don’t need to say their name. I stayed at the fraternity house.

Cathy: Okay.

Todd: Um, whereas we went to, uh, an apartment. So it’s really intense. Mm-hmm. Uh, and it’s a super important topic, so I didn’t wanna interrupt your mojo, but that’s, I just wanted to share a little bit and,

Cathy: and that’s, that’s the thing. And, and even if we are very self-aware and we keep ourselves out of our children’s, you know, ever evolving friendships, there’s still that.

Cathy: Parental role where when they come to us and they’re feeling sad or they’re making new choices of who they wanna spend time with, we have an internal reaction to it. And sometimes the internal reaction becomes an external reaction where we start saying things, we start, um, assuming things, we start, um, expecting things.

Cathy: Versus recognizing. I think the goal of this substack [00:13:00] and this podcast is to remember that a lot of these changing friendships are very normal and necessary because this is how our kids begin to, you know, learn to self-identify and figure out what works for them and even the poor choices that they’re gonna make.

Cathy: Maybe like leaving a group or dissing a friend and sitting at a different table. Or, you know, showing up in a way where they look different because they wanna like, you know, blend in with another group. This is how they learn what that feels like. Mm. And do they like that? Because what I have experienced as a therapist, but also as a parent, is that a lot of times those are the things that start to really help them know who they are, where they’re like, well.

Cathy: When I realized I could sit at a different lunch table. At first it was exhilarating. At first. It was really exciting and it felt really empowering and I felt powerful. And then it started to feel really performative. I mean, again, I’m using adult words here. Kids don’t say these things to me, but [00:14:00] this is, I’m making a, you know, putting it all together.

Cathy: Then they’re like, then I feel like I’m performing and having to keep up, and then I see how the system works. I see kinda how the sausage is made behind the scenes, and it’s kind of gross. They’re like, I don’t really love this. And so then they start maybe making choices where they’re like, I don’t really need to be here, but they had to get there.

Cathy: And when I say there, it’s not always about popularity. It could be about sitting with a certain person or wanting to achieve something in some other direction. It’s not always about social climbing. Um, you know, it could be about wanting to sit with upperclassmen or whatever it may be. But they have to experience it to know that may not be what they wanna do.

Todd: Um, what I was gonna say is it’s all, um. It’s a little bit con. Friendship is such a confusing, um, situation. I’m trying to think of where I was going with this Thought.

Cathy: God’s got a cold.

Todd: I got

Cathy: a cold. I’m a little foggy. He has the cold that I had last week, so I’m finally better. I think I sound normal again.

Cathy: He gave

Todd: me her [00:15:00] cold.

Cathy: Sorry baby.

Todd: Um, so I would forgot what I was gonna say, so I’m an idiot.

Cathy: Okay. No, you’re not an idiot. You just have headphones.

Todd: No, I’m an idiot. Go. I just drink my, my Egyptian licorice tea.

Cathy: Well, I will just say that I think that, so a lot of things that Todd and I are gonna talk about today we can get a little deeper into, but if you wanna go read my substack, it was one of the free ones, so I remember what I was gonna say.

Cathy: Go, go. Let me finish this thought though before you hold onto it, Todd, um, go to Substack at Cathy Kesani Adams and you can read it. Okay.

Todd: Go ahead. We all think. Our kids are the ones being left out right. And that’s not true. No, not always. Uh, we’re totally, I judge that we as parents are biased. We all think most of the time that our kids are kind.

Todd: Yeah, we hope, and there’s times when our kids are the ones doing the excluding. Sure. And I just wanted to like out that as much as I think my three daughters are amazing kind people. I know that they are. And I’m sure that there’s times when they wanted to [00:16:00] exclude somebody.

Cathy: Well, even if they weren’t the excluders per se, maybe they went along with a group that was excluding, maybe they didn’t say anything when something should have been said or could have been said.

Cathy: Like, these are, these are big. Pieces of growing up, and we don’t need to create these scenarios for our kids. We don’t need to like, you know, mess things up in their friendships so they can figure it out. It’s going to be messy no matter what. I mean the, the change from elementary school. To middle school friendships and then the change from middle school to high school friendships is sometimes very drastic.

Cathy: Mm-hmm. You know, like there are some really big shifts in there. If you have a kid who maintained the same best friends elementary through middle through high school, that’s great like that. It, it’s, that’s wonderful. And if they think it’s wonderful. And, but if you have a kid who like had really different groups like every year or they’re really kind of evolved, uh, that’s, that’s great.

Cathy: Like it can be hard and messy, you know, like it can be [00:17:00] uncomfortable. I think the thing that I have found on a really basic level that helps parents is realizing. That, you know, my whole first paragraph is about how, again, pop culture, ’cause that’s all Todd and I talk about is that in TV and movies and in our favorite books, there’s these like forever friendships and these like effortless friendships where this person always has your back and they never, you know, there’s never a problem.

Cathy: And that’s. Often fiction.

Todd: So I want to, I want to put in, throw in some pop culture in here for a second. Let’s hear it. Let’s hear it. So the que, this is gonna be the question, and I’m formulating this as I’m speaking, but of these friendships, I’m about to name famous friendships in movies, Uhhuh, how many of them will, will still be alive in a generation?

Todd: So what I mean is, when you say alive, do you mean the people? The the fake characters. Okay. Will they have made it another 20 years? As friends? As friends? Okay.

Cathy: Let’s hear it.

Todd: Andy and Red.

Cathy: Duh. They live together. They’re building boats.

Todd: Shawshank. Okay.

Cathy: That one’s just, of course, you know why? ’cause they can’t go back because they both escaped from prison.

Todd: Thelma and Louise. [00:18:00] Now they, they jumped off the cliff. They died. But let’s say they didn’t. Sorry. Spoiler. They died. I. I love it when you worry about spoiling 30-year-old movies. You think Thelma, I, I don’t even know if I’ve seen that whole movie, but will they, you think they would’ve made it had they decided to stay in prison and then

Cathy: maybe not?

Cathy: Uh, Louise was a lot older than Thelma. They were thrown together. Via circumstance and, uh, they, I don’t know. I don’t know. Can I say something because Sure babe. I don’t like pop culture mistakes. Red was out of prison, but he was on parole and was not supposed to leave the states. Okay. There we go.

Todd: Glad we cleared that up.

Todd: I was, I was nervous that the fact checkers out there, uh, forest and Bubba. Now we all know Bubba died. Know Bubba died. But let’s say he didn’t die. Would they have been best good friends?

Cathy: Yes. Forever.

Todd: Um, Harry, Ron and Hermione.

Cathy: Yeah, they’ll always be,

Todd: did they all survive that Uhhuh, that movie? Yeah, that movie series.

Todd: Buzz and Woody?

Cathy: Yes. I mean, they’re, [00:19:00] they’re with what’s her name now? What’s her name? What’s the new girl’s name? Um, starts with a DI don’t know. Come on. Andy gave his toys to.

Todd: You’re asking a very foggy headed person over here. Fuck, I don’t remember. Sweetie. Would Wayne. Wayne and Garth. I think there’s no way they would’ve made it.

Cathy: Bonnie,

Todd: her name

Cathy: was Bonnie.

Todd: Nice job. The

Cathy: Bonnet tribe.

Todd: Okay, go ahead. Wayne and Garth. I don’t think they would’ve made it. I think that they’re high school friends or college friends or Na go. They go to college. Wayne and Garth. Oh

Cathy: no. They went. They had post high

Todd: school. There’s no way Wayne Garth stayed.

Todd: Friends, sweetie.

Cathy: Name tags and hairnets. Remember, I have an extensive collection.

Todd: Are you on

Cathy: board

Todd: with me? Wayne Garth would not have made it. Uh, there’s not much foundation for long lasting friendship there. They,

Cathy: if they keep working together and doing a show, they’ll stay friends.

Todd: The easy answer for all these is yes, but let’s be discerning.

Todd: Uh, there’s no way Wayne, Garth, may Wayne

Cathy: would probably go further. Maybe, I don’t know.

Todd: Uh, will and Chucky, do you know who I’m talking about?

Cathy: Uh, yes. [00:20:00] This is, uh, Goodwill Hunting. No, they are not going to remain as close. Will will always call Chucky his best friend. Mm-hmm. But they will not be able to maintain the same connection.

Todd: Uh, Enis and Jack.

Cathy: Uh, are we talking about Brokeback Mountain? We sure are. Well, Jack died. I know, but let’s pretend he didn’t. Uh, they were not best friends. They were partners. They were lovers.

Todd: Yeah. Right. So you think they would’ve made it if they, they, what is his name? Enis left his wife if

Cathy: they lived in a different time and

Todd: in a different state.

Todd: Gotcha. Uh, Elliot and et. Uh, let’s say, let’s say ET did not go up in the spaceship. Think I, I think he would’ve depended on Elliot to survive. I think. I think Elliot would’ve said, you know what, et I’m kind of done with you.

Cathy: I went through this whole middle school thing. Can you go find someone else to live in their closet?

Cathy: Uh, that’s all

Todd: I

Cathy: got.

Todd: I just, I just felt like throwing something funny in this

Cathy: space. I love that you did Enis and Jack. That’s right. That’s right. They were, they loved each other. That was, they were friends and lovers, sweetie. Yes. Like the song from.

Todd: Stage of [00:21:00] our lives. Of our lives. Kimberly and Shane, Don.

Todd: So I’ll be your friend. That’s right. And I’ll be your lover. I’m gonna head back to this, uh, a few things I highlighted in your blog already. Okay. Let’s hear it. Uh, school dynamics. We already talked about that building trust, so I thank you for putting bullet points in there.

Cathy: You’re welcome.

Todd: And you did that to kind of help us shift into meaningful conversations, and you start with some very basic stuff.

Todd: Why do you do that? Why are you giving us bullet points, like asking your kid, how is the drive today? Or What books are you reading? Why is this important? So

Cathy: I guess. What I always like to reiterate is the my book Restoring Our Girls. The whole book is about how to have meaningful conversations with your kids, and the essential element is that you have to make conversations normal in your family culture for meaningful conversations to be meaningful.

Yeah.

Cathy: So if your kids. Um, are able to talk to you about really basic things, like if you’re, if they come home and you’re like, Hey, how is the drive? What do the trees look like? [00:22:00] Now your kid may be a kid who’s like, I don’t know, but you’re just kinda like asking, you know, how, you know, what’d you guys get tonight?

Cathy: You go to Chick-fil-A, you’re like interested, you’re curious. You’re having normal conversations, asking the non intense questions. Correct. The non intense questions. Thank you, lead. Over time to the more intimate questions like parents who talk to me about, they’ll say, my kid doesn’t tell me anything. How do I get them to tell me things?

Cathy: I’m like, well, what do they talk to you about? And they’re like, nothing. And I’m like, so you never have conversations about anything? Like, and I’m not talking about schoolwork and their soccer team. I’m talking about like. A movie they watched or what color they wanna paint their room, or you know, how their bike is doing.

Cathy: Like you talk to them about nothing, you know, because if, if that’s the case, then it’s gonna be very hard for them to talk to you about sex or a failing friendship or feeling left out because those are the most vulnerable things there are. So we have to make conversations normalized. And if you [00:23:00] notice one of those bullet points, Todd was me saying to my kids, Hey you guys.

Cathy: I am, I wanna tell you about my day. Something really cool happened, so I’m not just always the questioner. I’m sometimes telling, sharing my life with them

Todd: too. Can I share one of my favorite movie scenes of all time? Sure. Let’s hear it. Uh, it’s probably overstating, but this is from City S Slickers. Okay.

Todd: Um, and it’s when, uh, the woman, I forget her, I think her name is Bonnie, in that movie. Another Bonnie. Another Bonnie. Mm-hmm. And she’s kind of making fun of the guys. ’cause all they talk about is baseball. And it, it, it relates to what you just said is let’s talk about some non intense stuff. Mm-hmm. So this is Daniel Stern, is that his name?

Todd: Mm-hmm. Uh, talking about, um, baseball.

Stop you to hibernate again. You’re right. I suppose I, I mean, I, I guess it is childish, but, uh, when I was about 18 and my dad and I couldn’t communicate about anything at all, we, we could still talk about baseball now that, that was real, I.[00:24:00]

Todd: I think that’s such a wonderful reminder. And I, and I am somebody who used to watch SportsCenter every day, and I’m like, sports just doesn’t mean nearly as much to me as it used to. And I find myself judging sports in a, in a very kind of closed-minded way, and. There’s also some beautiful parts about sports, and sports is a vehicle of connection, uh, especially when a father and a son have nothing else to connect about.

Todd: So I just think that’s a wonderful,

Cathy: or father and a daughter. Sure. I mean, I, I talked about baseball growing up. Um, it was a really. Big in our family right now. We talk about baseball a lot. Sure. You know, so it doesn’t have to be gender specific, but it’s something that’s not so intense. Like, and here’s the thing for families that are like, well yeah, we talk about baseball all the time.

Cathy: That’s an entry. Yeah.

Todd: Don’t, don’t, don’t begin. Stop there. Don’t begin an end with baseball.

Cathy: Like that’s like, you know, then you can talk about the players, what they’re going through, decisions they have to make, you know, going to a game. Um, you [00:25:00] know, how they respond to losing, how they’re responding to winning, like.

Cathy: The world is already, you know, when people are like, I don’t know how to start a conversation. The world is happening and all we have to do is be kind of curious about how people, like, maybe it’s easier for me ’cause I really, really, really am interested in human behavior, right? Like when I’m watching people, it’s not from a distance and it’s not without curiosity.

Cathy: Everything people do, I’m interested in why did you react? So

Todd: do you, were you interested in, uh, your fire alarm this morning? Uh,

Cathy: I was at my, uh. Yoga class today. And do you want me to tell this story? I figure you’re gonna write

Todd: about it eventually.

Cathy: Oh, well, I don’t know. I might, well, so there was a fire alarm this morning at 6:00 AM at my club.

Cathy: No fault of the club. Like there’s no, I’m not this and them. Um, things like that happen all the time. But, so I was in a yoga class and then there’s another exercise class next to me and we all came out and a lot of the women that were lifting weights upstairs came out and we’re all standing outside and.

Cathy: Uh, waiting for the fire trucks. And I looked [00:26:00] inside and the weightlifting area is right there through the windows, and none of the men left that were weightlifting. I mean, maybe some of them did. I, I can’t, I didn’t do a headcount, but there were at least 5, 6, 7, 8 men and there’s still weightlifting while there was a fire alarm.

Cathy: And I look around outside and it’s, you know, vast majority of women, few older men, but I’m like, why are there different rules for them? Mm-hmm. Why are we outside following the rules of a fire alarm? They don’t have to. Sorry, I’m not crying. That was sweetie. Are you okay? Should walk through. Are you gonna be okay?

Cathy: No, I’m not crying, but I, I get, I’m so interested in that because, and then the firemen, okay, so then the firemen come and the little bit of a justice warrior in me. Um. I’m kind of like, okay, the firemen are gonna go in there and tell them to leave. You know, like, why aren’t you out? And they didn’t. Mm-hmm.

Cathy: They just walked through and the men just kept lifting weights and, and this is just a conversation that Todd and I have a lot about. Um, you know, ’cause we oftentimes talk about [00:27:00] entitlement in terms of socioeconomic, that there’s entitlement with people who are wealthy. But there’s gender entitlement as well about like, I don’t really have to follow the rules you guys have to follow.

Cathy: And I don’t, when I say I don’t understand it, I do understand it. I also don’t think it’s great.

Todd: Well, and it also triggers other things. You know, this morning on my newsfeed, uh, one of the, one of the interviewers asked our president if he was going to. Uphold the constitution. He said he didn’t know.

Cathy: He said, is it your job?

Cathy: Yeah. To, to uphold the constitution. He said, I don’t know.

Todd: Yeah. And which is a, a very interesting response to a very simple question and, and that is connected to what you saw this morning at the club. Right.

Cathy: Can you imagine? If a female politician said, I don’t know if I’m going to uphold the constitution.

Cathy: Yeah. Can you guys just sit with that for a second, considering that when someone takes an oath of office, regardless of its mayor, or, um, well, I don’t know for the mayor. I might be exaggerating there, but [00:28:00] if it’s a senator or a house representative or a, or the president of the United States, that’s the first thing they commit to.

Cathy: Yeah. You know, I will uphold the constitution of the United States of America. And so this like ability to just get in, and it’s not just about the political landscape. There’s just this, you know, when people, again, when we talk about patriarchy, I’m not talking about individual men. I’m talking about a system.

Cathy: And the system allows for men to keep weightlifting when there’s a fire alarm. And that all the women are outside. Mm-hmm. Like what? What’s, and, and to me, I don’t, this is the discussion that Todd and I had about a month ago around him. Double parking. Double parking in front of Chipotle. Why do you think you get to do that?

Cathy: Because that’s bothersome to people who need to go around you. That’s not the law. And I know we all break laws here and there. We double park like we’re not perfect people. Again, stay in the gray with me. But I also, like with Todd, I’m like, why do you think you get [00:29:00] to do this? Like, I, I feel like there is a sense of, for the most part, let’s do our best to make things easier for the people around us.

Cathy: And I think even that understanding is very gendered.

Todd: Well, and even, and for me, it’s important not just to look at, ’cause I look at these guys lifting weights or whatever, you know, I could see, I don’t know what I would’ve done, but I could see myself continuing to lift weights, like there’s no danger rate here.

Todd: And if. If a fire ends up erupting out of nowhere, then I know where the door is. It’s right there. I’m not saying I’m right, but what I’m trying to do is connect the dots between that and then what we’re also seeing as far as our leadership, and it’s all connected, so I need to look at all of it, not just.

Todd: What would happen if I smelled smoke and I was lifting weights, I’d just walk out the door.

Cathy: And I think that’s a good conversation. Like instead of just pointing the figure and saying, good, bad. It’s like you are sitting like, ’cause these men who are weightlifting, they’re right by the door to your point.

Cathy: So could they get out? Do they have to take an elevator or anything? No. But [00:30:00] why then are the rest of us following some kind of protocol that the law. Says, I mean, the, the thing was going off and beeping, saying, leave the premises, use the stairs. It was telling us to leave. Mm-hmm. And why do some people get to adhere to that and some people don’t?

Cathy: Like why? Why is that an expectation? And you privilege Exactly. To your point, you are thinking individually. Mm-hmm. Which is, I’m safe. Yeah. I can keep weight lifting. Yeah. You weren’t there, by the way. I can keep doing this, but I think sometimes, again, I’m gonna speak gendered. I think women think more about the whole,

Todd: mm-hmm.

Cathy: What are we supposed to do? How can I keep everybody safe? What’s the smartest thing to do? Because I think those

Todd: guys would’ve been like. No, keep, keep working out. You know, you girls and, and all you people outside who follow the rules. You don’t need to come on back because this is one of those alarms where there’s no fire going on.

Todd: So keep treating yourself to your workout because it’s an accidental alarm that went off. I.

Cathy: Yeah. And do, and how do we know that? Right. We don’t like, we [00:31:00] didn’t, we gotta treat it as if it’s real. And my yoga teacher is a woman and she was basic. She basically said, I’m gonna follow what the personal trainers are doing out there.

Cathy: And majority of ’em started walking down. So we did too. And it’s also the smart thing to do, like a argument that, uh, or discussion that Todd and I have had over the years is when there’s a tornado drill. Which there’s many. Not drill a tornado warning or watch. Oh yeah. Because we live in the Midwest, in Chicago, they’re all the time.

Cathy: That’s just part of our weather, weather patterns. And Todd will sometimes walk outside. Mm-hmm. And like look around and I’m like, okay, we have children. This is when they were younger. We need to go downstairs and demon be good role models for this is how you keep yourself safe. You don’t just try and be cool and go outside and be like, oh, I’m not gonna get hurt.

Cathy: Like you don’t know what’s gonna happen.

Todd: There’s some very funny. Tiktoks or Instagrams of like,

Cathy: dad’s mowing the lawn, dad’s mowing the

Todd: lawn while you could see the twister. Like, and that’s, that’s funny. And also behavior a problem, right? But that’s really funny. Like what are these dads doing?

Cathy: And [00:32:00] that’s the thing is there’s so much in that.

Cathy: Like, do you see how rich this conversation is? Like there’s so much training in there.

Todd: I do wanna bring it back to your substack. Are you ready? This is my way of doing that.

You put me on and said I was your favorite

friend. Oh, she was a friend and she close the one. So

Todd: why did you put that line in your blog, sweetie? Because I use it all the time when I’m talking to teenage girls. I’ve never heard that be, I’m sorry, I’ve never heard that before. Her song. Ato, it’s an ale. It’s Aristotle set, right? I didn’t, I I didn’t.

Todd: And the line is a friend to all, is a friend to none. Right

Cathy: Sweetie. You know how to ball. I know Aristotle.

Todd: Yeah. I don’t know what you just said.

Cathy: That’s from her song about Travis. Yeah. I don’t you know how to ball. I know Aristotle. Okay. Uh, anyway, she is using an Aristotle quote to point out in the song Cardi again.

Cathy: It’s about, um, [00:33:00] her. B boyfriend who is with another girl, and he then comes back and says, oh, I really didn’t wanna be with that girl. August, what’s her name? I really wanna be with you, but you know, I. Two girls and then you’re gonna lose the one like you. You don’t get to have all of those options available to you.

Cathy: You have to choose. And when it comes to friendship, again, let’s broaden the idea of, you know, a friend to all as a friend to none. That’s about loyalty. Like if you are someone who’s like, I wanna make everyone happy, I wanna make everyone like me, I wanna be like the person that everybody thinks is easygoing.

Cathy: Then you probably don’t have a lot of focus and loyalty for specific people. And so there’s a lot of people who spend their life making sure everybody thinks they’re great, but then they don’t have any sense of self, they don’t have any of their own boundaries, they don’t have any of their own interesting traits.

Cathy: Now, I can speak about this pretty, uh, [00:34:00] openly because I think I used to be this way. I think I, um, was a very. Skilled chameleon in that no matter who I was with, I could have a conversation, I could relate, I could make them feel good. I could keep it going and, and you know, talking about being a people pleaser or being that kind of chameleon, it’s not all bad and shallow.

Cathy: A lot of it is very connective and an ability to get to know people like. It wasn’t that I was trying to be a fake human, but what ended up getting lost in in translation was my needs. I ended up wanting to make sure everybody else was okay, and what I lost was, could a friend help me? Like I was always like, I’m fine.

Cathy: How can I help you and do I know you and I’m friends with you? And instead of having a belief that I could really participate in a real friendship where it could be back and forth, make sense?

Todd: Um, it does.[00:35:00]

There it is, babe. Yeah.

Todd: So not everybody knows this song. What is this song and why did you quote it? Um,

Cathy: uh, so high

Todd: school. It is so high school.

Cathy: Yep. It is, uh, Taylor’s song about her current,

Todd: uh, boyfriend Travis. Sweetie. What if I threw Travis and, uh, Taylor into that quiz that I said at the beginning of the show is if they’re gonna make it 25 years from now?

Todd: Uh, not as

Cathy: friends and partners. Yeah,

Todd: I

Cathy: hope so. I mean, I don’t know.

Todd: Yeah,

Cathy: that’s their journey. Could I have a Kleenex? You stole the whole box. I know. Sorry babe. I know you have the cold now, but we still need to to share the Kleenex. Um, can I play one more

Todd: clip of a song Uhhuh that you might get sad about?

Cathy: Don’t.

Todd: Oh, mm-hmm. Sorry,

Cathy: I can’t listen to that one. That’s

Todd: just a much for me. I listened to it. I’ve never heard of that song. Oh,

Cathy: it’s a lot for me.

Todd: We said hello, goodbye

Cathy: Uhhuh by Phil Collins. It was on No jacket required.

Todd: It was, I remember that. You remember that album? I, of course, remember that. So

Cathy: anyway, my pledge mom, Jenna ga I was, I was very sad to leave, [00:36:00] um, high school.

Cathy: And so, you know, I pledged a sorority and really had a great experience with my girlfriends and everything, but my pledge mom was really aware of how sad I was and she made me this really great mix tape that was really helpful. It was kind of hard to explain, but one of that song was on it, hello, goodbye.

Cathy: We said, hello, goodbye. And then we was so crazy is then obviously I had four years of college and then that group of people became my life and then that song. Was just as, um, relevant and it just makes me sad ’cause it’s about leaving

Todd: people. Well, you know what’s interesting is I tried to do a little quiz for friendships that break up, not not intimate partners that break up uhhuh and there’s a whole bunch of songs out there about good friends and I’ve played some of them this on this podcast.

Todd: Uh, but there’s not that many. Can you think of any songs? That are written about the end of a friendship versus the end of a romantic relationship?

Cathy: I’d have to think a little bit, but one thing I’ll say in that vein is I [00:37:00] think that friendship relationships are the last frontier. Like I think that we don’t talk about them very much because they’re very messy.

Cathy: Mm-hmm. And I think sometimes one of the mo, why they’re messy is. They necessitate choice. Mm-hmm. And they necessitate like exuding energy to stay connected and. I guess that’s true with everything, but your kids are your kids, right? They’re in your life, they’re in your family, they’re in your home, your partner’s, your partner.

Cathy: I’m gonna focus on my marriage, whatever. These are my parents. Here’s my sister, this is my aunt. Whatever friendships, you have to choose them. Yeah. Over and over and over again. Nobody is like, it’s, there’s no, there’s rarely bloodlines unless your cousins or whatever. And it’s more like, this is a person I am going to commit to spending time with.

Cathy: And I think you and I both have had really good. Interesting experiences in our life with friendships, and also we both have fantastic friendships. Mm-hmm. We’re very lucky with other men and women. Yeah. And we’ve also had [00:38:00] friendships that have not stayed. Congrats. And so

Todd: that’s the way it’s supposed to be.

Cathy: Exactly. And so there’s always a, or they shift in alter, you know what I mean? Like there’s friendships that were high priority that aren’t as much, or whatever it may be. And I think that it’s the last frontier because it can be really uncomfortable to talk about.

Todd: Yeah. You know? Well, and um, it’s funny because I, if I have any challenge, it’s me not wanting to let things.

Todd: A friendship to die. Yeah. Yeah. You’re, I would much rather hang on tight to something that doesn’t seem to be that convenient anymore. Yeah. Could be a change in values, it could be a change in geography. Um, and it’s really, it’s challenging for me.

Cathy: Yeah. You know, I, because I’ve had some, uh, you know, things that experiences with friendships as we all have.

Cathy: I think the place that I’ve landed is what. Feels right to me and I am going to do that regardless of what is reciprocated. Yeah. What I [00:39:00] mean by that is maybe there’s someone that I don’t see them as much or we’re, we’re not as close, but I don’t inside, I still consider them a good friend. Mm-hmm. And so I make sure that I show up in some way on their birthday or.

Cathy: I make sure that, you know, I connect or send a text or say I’m thinking of you and, and I’ve decided to do that regardless of if there’s reciprocity and that is just some, I just want to keep showing up. Yeah.

Todd: And it doesn’t have to be black and white. Like my example, I have some wonderful college friends who I would do, I would stop what I was doing to.

Todd: To do something if any of them were in need. But a lot of, um, things that happen in some of these older friendships is we go back to who we were when we were 25 years old. It means drinking and gambling and all that. And, uh, I prioritize it once a year to make sure I connect with these men. But that’s as much as I will do to go outta my way to, um, be with them just because I know it’s gonna be a really.

Todd: Energetically draining weekend because it’s a lot of surfacey stuff and it’s a lot of alcohol and it’s just [00:40:00] like, it’s just not something I’m in alignment with.

Cathy: Yeah, and here’s the thing, like the, the, what’s interesting about the conversation is there’s no good or bad here. There is like, you wanna see these guys once a year and you wanna have fun and do it, and then you’re like, okay, I feel full.

Cathy: And we don’t have to be so like, therefore they’re not good friends. Right. It’s like they are, they are. Friends, you know, for a reason, for a season, for a lifetime. We’ve all heard that before. And, well,

Todd: I’m sorry, go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Um, to, and just one quick thing I wanted to share about modeling and, uh, I know that my kids get annoyed at hearing me say this, but we talked about the lunch table, which is a really intense part of high school and middle school.

Todd: And, um, I had three really good friends in high school and we sat at the same table. And then just next to our table was the cool table, and that’s where like everybody raced to get to that cool table. There’s only 20 spots and there’s about 23 guys that wanted to be at that table. So we took the overflow.

Todd: Mm-hmm. Like [00:41:00] whoever was late that day. Sure. And. I wanna say how peaceful I was in not having to rush to go try to find a seat at the cool table. And of course there’s a part of me that wanted to be over there, so, um, I just don’t want, uh, as I shared that story, it’s not like I’m better than those guys that were at the cool table.

Todd: ’cause there’s part of me that wanted to be over there. It’s just for me, it wasn’t worth it. Mm-hmm. Um. And that is just an example of, and, and I’ve shared that story with my daughters over and over. They’re probably sick of hearing me say it, but, um, but it’s, it’s true.

Cathy: Well, and, and you know, when we’re sharing our stories, we have to recognize they’re our stories and they’ve also been wrapped up.

Cathy: Nicely with a neat bow. Yeah. They don’t carry the feelings right, or the experiences we were having. It’s like, here’s my complete story about the way I was in high school wrapped up and we can share the story. There’s no problem as long as there’s no expectation in the story. If you’re, if your goal in saying that Todd is so, therefore you should sit at a table with three people and [00:42:00] take the overflow, then you don’t.

Cathy: You’re not listening to what they need right now.

Todd: Well, one thing that we didn’t talk about that was in your substack, which was, um, social climbing. No, it wasn’t social climbing. God, my freaking brain. It was, uh oh. That. It’s really hard to, um, remember what it’s like to be in high school because they have to go back into that situation the next day.

Cathy: Yes.

Todd: So, I don’t know if you wanna, I know we’re getting close to shutting down here, but do you want to talk a little bit about that part of your substack where you Yeah,

Cathy: I like, there was a paragraph I really liked that I wrote, I could find it.

Todd: I’m, I highlighted it.

Cathy: It’s called, so. Uh, this is, this is the paragraph.

Cathy: It starts with school dynamics. School dynamics are complicated. Our kids return to the same hallways, the same classrooms, the same sports teams, and later in college it might be the same dorm, Greek system club. They’re literally showing up to the same faces and spaces every day and blowing up a. Up a friendship or walking away from a group isn’t as simple as it sounds.

Cathy: Yeah. From the outside, like [00:43:00] as parents, we have this like idealized, you know, John Hughes movie about, here’s what I’m gonna say. You know what you should say to your friend is, you’re not gonna treat me that way anymore. Or you’re gonna tell the bully to stop it. And that’s lovely. I mean, there’s value system in that suggestion.

Cathy: But that’s also not reality for a lot of our kids. They have to live in that bubble of the school system. And so blowing up where they sit at lunch or blowing up with a friend or, you know, cutting off ties or burning a bridge is a very big thing. Mm-hmm. And now it still may happen to them, like it, but not by choice.

Cathy: Like someone else may do it to them. Something gets blown up. Like they may have to deal with that. But to force our kids to create that scenario, I think is something that we may want to reconsider. So just kind of bringing it full circle. Todd can share that story as long as he’s not saying Now, I would be really proud of you kid if you did what I did.

Todd: Right?

Cathy: That’s too much pressure.

Todd: Um, in closing. Um, I tried to find songs about broken up friendships and I [00:44:00] couldn’t find any uhhuh, but I’m just gonna throw a few breakup songs, um, for romantic relationships and just see if you, is it going to be relevant? No, but I just want to talk about it. So one is, I.

Todd: Back to December. Okay. That’s about a relationship. Right. Okay. And then, um, silver Springs, that’s also about a relationship. Right? That’s what I mean. So I,

Cathy: okay.

Todd: I want you to kind of rate these songs.

Cathy: Okay. So back to December is one of my favorite, uh, songs, but that’s an apology.

Todd: Okay. To, um, what about Silver Springs?

Cathy: That is commentary. That was, um. A song that is Stevie Nick’s really speaking to Lindsay Buckingham,

Todd: was it her response to, uh, go your own way perhaps?

Cathy: Uh, dreams was actually her response to go your own way, but Silver Springs was also mm-hmm. Dreams was just a little more of the general, and Silver Springs was a little more pointed.

Todd: Mm-hmm. And then what about somebody that I used to know by. Go, go ta

Cathy: go ta. Yeah. With all of his hits. Yeah. [00:45:00] Um, that’s an inside joke with my friend Chris Lozier. If you’re listening. Um, he doesn’t

Todd: listen to this shit. I

Cathy: know, but if anyone knows him, it’s an inside joke. Chris Lozier and I have, uh, so go, go ta um, just.

Todd: Can you call Chris out on the carpet of what that argument was about? Well,

Cathy: we were playing something called the music Game, and just so you guys know, the music game is going to be incorporated into Zen Pop parenting. So get excited. That’s right. Because you’re gonna have a new game to play. Um, it’s, but basically it’s where we, um, come up with a topic and then we’re like, okay, what is a song that represents this?

Cathy: Like, and, and we get really hardcore, like, you’re not gonna use, you know, if we’re talking about revolution and you. Choose the song Revolution by the Beatles, that’s not gonna win. Mm-hmm. Because that’s too on point. Yeah. It’s too obvious. Okay. So it’s gotta be a little deeper, whatever, so, but it also needs to be a song people somewhat know.

Cathy: Mm-hmm. And I think that, I can’t remember what we showed was the Go ta song that showed, well, I thought it was like

Todd: Q, it was something about [00:46:00] what hit wonders.

Cathy: That was it. That was it. That was it. That was the music game. Okay. So the one we picked was a one hit wonder. And again, to your point or to the point I was making, you don’t just want it to be, come on Eileen.

Cathy: Yeah, like that’s an obvious one. You want it to be something a little deeper. And I think I chose ate somebody that I used to know and ’cause I’m like, he doesn’t have any other hits. An lozier was like, oh he does. Yeah, he’s got this song. And I’m like, nobody knows that. Nobody knows anything. And he’s like, but it has this many plays.

Cathy: It has like a million plays. I’m like. That doesn’t mean anything. Like American pie has a billion, 5 billion plays. Like you can’t, it’s like apples and oranges.

Todd: Yeah. You gotta, you gotta be relative in, but anyway, that’s

Cathy: just what OER and I do. We, we, he’s, he’s music snobby and maybe I am a little bit too

Todd: Yes, I think that’s,

Cathy: but in a different way.

Todd: Um, any closing thoughts? Uh, Zen, um, Team Zen if anybody wants to join the community with Cathy and I, we got, we think John Duffy coming on at the end of the month. Yeah.

Cathy: We have some really kind of interesting things coming up. This month. We got Duffy [00:47:00] coming on because Duffy and I are gonna start talking more about restoring our girls from rescuing our sons together.

Cathy: Mm-hmm. Because he’s got his book and I’ve got my book, so he’s gonna come on. Um, and we’re gonna do a q and a on Team Zen. And then we also have a women’s group coming up and, and we’re

Todd: doing one on colleges

Cathy: or

Todd: something, right? And then we’re

Cathy: doing a, last week we did a talk about menopause. Uh, this week we’re, or this month we’re doing a talk about college.

Cathy: So you guys, these are the things you can do. Tell people to subscribe to Zen Parenting Radio, which will be called Zen Pop Parenting very soon. It’s gonna be great. You guys are gonna love it, so don’t worry. Um, number two, subscribe to my substack free or paid. Of course I prefer paid, but I also just want you to be there.

Cathy: And number three, join Team Zen. Um, that is our parenting community. So if you want more intense parenting, that’s where you can find us. And then of course, I’m gonna do another one. Men Living. Mm-hmm. For men who are listening. Um, and

Todd: I’m gonna do a fifth one. By Cathy’s book.

Cathy: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Todd: Storing our girls.

Cathy: Should we do a sixth one?

Todd: No. Okay. Stop at five. Keep trunking. Oh, thanks. Jeremy Kraft, baldheaded Beauty Painting and Remodeling throughout Chicagoland area. 6 0 0 9 5 6 [00:48:00] 1800 avid code.net. Thank you Jeremy. Love you. Love all the listeners. See you next Tuesday. Bye.

Round two. Change a little bit. And change a little bit. Pretty pleasant.