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Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd, and this is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 808. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember. Our motto is that the best predictor of a child’s wellbeing is in fact a parent’s self understanding.
Todd: On today’s show, we already have the title, which is rare ’cause usually we start, we figure it out talking, and then we come up with title afterwards. The title is gonna be Raising Kids who Enjoy learning. I’ll, I’ll give us applause for that. Yeah. Uh, and it’s gonna be talking about raising kids who enjoy learning Part one, education, part two, parenting.
Cathy: Yeah. Like kind of the first part I wanna talk about the education system. Not in a boring way, but sometimes why? Why and how the education system [00:01:00] or the kid’s teacher is blamed and maybe some other things to think about and look at when it comes to your children’s teacher. And we’re gonna talk about kids from kindergarten or preschool all the way through college.
Cathy: Yeah. Okay. So the things we’re talking about here are universal principles. They’re not like, oh, in third grade do this. It’s like an overall way of looking at learning. And then the second part we’re gonna talk about is when it comes to parenting and what kind of learners we wanna raise. I, Todd just said before we started, he’s like, we’ve been talking about this forever and, and I know, but I feel like we need to reinforce the things we’ve been talking about forever now with new research mm-hmm.
Cathy: That has come out. Yeah. So we can kind of validate, verify the things maybe we were talking about in a breezy way. That are actually research based.
Todd: I am breezy.
Cathy: I am breezy. Um, don’t
Cathy: say you’re breezy.
Todd: No, uh, because that takes away the breeziness.
Cathy: That takes away the breeziness.
Todd: Um, I just want to give a shout out to Cathy Cassani Adams, who wrote a book called Restoring Our Girls.
Todd: Thank you. How real conversations Shape our Daughter’s Lives, help them with team challenges. And [00:02:00] remind them that they matter. Uh, you can get it wherever books are sold. So if you haven’t gotten your book, go ahead and get your book.
Cathy: Well, and something that’s kind of, uh, you know, momentum has been, um, increasing when it comes to book clubs around this book.
Cathy: Um, and I’m being asked to come talk to book clubs like Zoom in the. Book clubs I’m gonna be talking to, they’re, they’re not in Chicago, they’re from other, they’re in other places. So, um, if that’s something, if you have a book club or you just have a group of women or people from your school who wanna talk about what girls are experiencing right now, um, and you wanna start by reading the book and then have me come in as a guest, like a Zoom, I can do an hour, hour and a half, whatever.
Cathy: And my only ask is that you ask people to buy the book. Um, so my time would just be. Built into that sales expectation. Exactly. Book sales. Yeah. So, um, you know, just, uh, Cathy@zenparentingradio.com is where you can find me or, um, just go to zen parenting radio.com
Todd: and we have a Zen talk this Thursday and you have a, uh, you have a women’s group next week.
Todd: Uh, team [00:03:00] Zen. It’s our community. There’s a app that you can put on your phone. It gives you. Everything that’s happening with Zen Parenting Radio with Todd and Cathy get a community of, uh, parents who are all kind of trying to navigate this,
Cathy: invested
Todd: this crazy world together. Yeah. Um, and we’ve been doing this for many years, and the minute you show up, I’m going to.
Todd: Send you maybe a T-shirt or some socks. 25, what is it? 25 bucks a month? I don’t know.
Cathy: Yeah, 25 bucks a month at that price has not changed since we started. It’s a very warm, comfy place to be. There’s not, there’s not a huge expectation on you, except that when we offer, you know, um. Opportunities to do q and a with us, or if we’re discussing a topic, come, come with us.
Cathy: And I think the next, um, live talk we’re doing through Teams end, we’re gonna talk about the show Adolescences. So Yeah. Um, that’s right. So if you really wanna like, talk about that and hear more about what Todd and I, you know, have to say, or we’ve dug into it that he is someone who has worked with boys and men and me as someone who works with girls because it’s, that’s what it’s about.
Cathy: It’s about the, the boy [00:04:00] experience and the female experience,
Todd: the, uh, tagline. Four, 100% zero pressure, 100% support. And I wanna think either Millie or Kim came up with that. Mm-hmm. I forget which one it was. Um, okay. Raising kids who enjoy learning. I got my hot take out of the outta the gate. You ready?
Cathy: Yeah.
Cathy: Before like, oh yeah, go ahead it up. Can I get a little bit of preface up? So there was an Atlantic article that came out in February. So The Atlantic has been a good place for me to go and get some really good, uh, articles as far as research-based articles. Really good journalistic integrity. So those of you who are always like, where do I, where do you get your news?
Cathy: The Atlantic is. A good place. Okay. Um, at least I have found it to be. So there was an article that came out in February, um, and it was called The Teen Disengagement Crisis. It was actually written by the women who wrote the Disengaged Teen, which came out a couple weeks ago. It’s a book. Um, but the, the article is not just about their book.
Cathy: It’s about, you know, some of the stats that they came up with, but also kind of the big picture of these [00:05:00] kids who are disengaged learners. And you may have a kid right now. Um, you may have a kid who’s a really engaged learner and then your other kid is super disengaged and we wanna talk about. Why that is, um, what we can do about it, and just some of our own thoughts.
Cathy: So go Ted.
Todd: Um, just the, the tagline to this Atlantic article is By middle school, many kids’ interest in learning falls off a cliff. Correct. The ripple effects could last for years. Um, Cathy and I are not perfect parents. Hey, quick update everybody. Todd and Cathy aren’t perfect, but, and one of the things that both you and I do believe in strongly is.
Todd: Inviting our kids to manage their own schoolwork.
Mm-hmm.
Todd: Right? Mm-hmm. There’s a lot of people, you know, if you’re completely disengaged and you don’t give a crap about anything, that’s probably not the best idea. And then the other side of that is the parents who are checking power school every day to see if their kid turned in [00:06:00] an assignment.
Todd: Correct. Okay. You and I have this belief that school is a game that needs to be played. Hopefully it’s a fun game, right? Mm-hmm. That’s kind of the plan. Not always. Um, but my hot take is, and I don’t know if we did this by design or we stumbled into it, but when our daughters were going to preschool, we had a lot of different options mm-hmm.
Todd: As to where we were going to send them. ’cause we live in a community that has many different preschools, which is great. And we decided to send them to Bethel. And Bethel is a play-based learning environment, preschool environment. There’s other preschools. I don’t even know the name of them, but they get their, their flashcards going when the kid’s three years old.
Todd: That’s not something that you and I, and what’s what’s funny is I. Believe that I mistakenly, I remember giving JC flashcards when she was four. Yeah, I remember. You’re like, what are you doing? I’m like getting her ready. Like for what? She kid’s four. Anyways. Um, so that’s my hot take. I feel like, uh, our kids are [00:07:00] really good students.
Todd: I don’t think they’re gonna get into Harvard, but they’re good students and I think the reason they’re good students is ’cause we let them fail. We let them manage their own school career anyways.
Cathy: Mm-hmm. So I’ll just talk a little bit about what Todd said. First of all, play-based preschool. Um, the reason why that Todd, okay.
Cathy: I’m gonna even back up even further. Hold on. Should I do the backup noise? Yeah, backup. Hold back up. It’s always very loud in right here. So
Todd: yeah, there it is. By the way, I do have a few videos I’m gonna play about crazy parents in pop culture movies. So go
Cathy: ahead. Oh, okay. Um, so the big backup is before our oldest daughter even started school, I, I am a teacher.
Cathy: Um, I used to, uh, teach it in classrooms and then I taught adults and then I taught in the hospital. So I’ve been a teacher my whole life and now I’m a professor. So I had kind of a. A viewpoint of what I thought school should be, that not only being a teacher myself, but my parents were teachers. My aunt was a principal.
Cathy: I’m sure I’ve said this before, but I come from educators, right? So what is the point of school? [00:08:00] Okay? Is school supposed to be some big competition again around, you know, all the kids competing with each other? Is it supposed to be about finding favorites? Is it supposed to be getting to an Ivy League school?
Cathy: No, my belief system was always, school is about developing someone who wants to learn. This probably came from my dad. I, I feel like I’m, I feel like he’s in the room. Like, thanks, God. Yes, Cathy, remember when I told you this? Um. But it developing learners and building curiosity. So you wanna continue learning your whole life.
Cathy: Okay. That’s what school is. So that’s the big picture because we need to, in our country, and let’s, let’s just say globally, we need to raise our children in a way where they’re interested in learning. I spent a lot of time in restoring our girls talk about their book, restoring Our Girls that I wrote, talking about the.
Cathy: Importance of critical thinking. Critical thinking is learning. Critical thinking is being open to new ideas, listening to other people’s perspectives, pushing back on your own belief systems. [00:09:00] Really kind of tossling and, and like toggling with ideas and doing tossling or toggling Oh, I’m making up words.
Cathy: Go ahead. Um, see my learning. Yeah. I’m creative with words. Um, so you, you like keep that process going your whole life. Like I have some pretty strong belief systems and way I. In ways I see the world, but you know what I do? I push against them constantly. I’m like, well wait a second. I believe this, or I wrote about this.
Cathy: Let me read this. What does this book say? What does this person say? I’m gonna watch this documentary. Is this true too? I’m constantly, that’s interesting to me. That’s, that’s, I wanna be a, a critical thinker, and that’s a big important thing that I wanted my girls to do as well. And Todd is excellent at this as well.
Cathy: So that’s the big picture. Before you even start your kids in preschool, what do you want? And so play-based learning, um. Is, you know, in preschool is really just about socialization. How do you stand in line? How do you get along with others? How do you share toys? How do you sit and put a napkin on your lap?
Cathy: Do you remember when they’d [00:10:00] all have lunch? Yeah. And
Todd: little cutie, four year olds having lunch. There’s so cutie.
Cathy: How do you sit on the floor and listen to a story? How do you dive into a story? How do you play with puppets? The whole idea was learning is interesting and fun and social and their teachers were amazing.
Cathy: And so that was enough for us. You know, that was like, that’s why my kids are in preschool. Like we had the big vision of what’s the point. Right. And we wanted them to be excited to go to school, which they were. Yeah. You know, like that’s the important thing too, is when the girls were in preschool, they were super shy and sometimes had difficult handoffs and everything.
Cathy: Yeah. And maybe one of our kids never talked to their teachers for the entire year. And now that kid is in speech. Yeah. And is like placed in state. So it’s really funny. Like that’s what’s funny is that you know, there are different, we sometimes we look at a kid and we’re like, that’s an engaged kid.
Cathy: That’s an engaged learner. Kids learn different ways. All three of my kids learn differently. Like my oldest was reading books out loud to herself. [00:11:00] It like through high school. Yeah. And she says she still does sometimes. Yeah, because she’s more auditory. She needs to hear it. And a lot of teachers would be like, you can’t do that.
Cathy: You can’t do that anymore. You gotta, you gotta do this a different way. Does she? Mm-hmm. Because she’s really learning this way. And so again, I’m getting off track now. When, when our kids were starting regular school, kindergarten going on, what’s the big picture? The big picture is learning how to learn, right?
Cathy: So preschool was socialization. Now they have to learn how to learn. Now, learning how to learn is many things. Number one, it’s. Literally being like, okay, how does my brain function this way? Can I memorize some things? Can I, what are my ABCs? How do I read words? And a lot of that is repetitious, learning, phonics, all that kind of stuff.
Cathy: It’s also learning how to engage with your teacher or dealing with conflict with other kids, or dealing with how to ask permission to go to the bathroom. Like learning how to learn is not just ABCs. And one thing that is always very [00:12:00] frustrating to me, and this is still happening even in my own community, are people who are like social emotional learning.
Cathy: We don’t have any space for that in school. Let’s not do that.
Yeah.
Cathy: That’s the most insane thing I’ve ever heard in my life. Well, and I’m, and I’m saying that very bluntly, and I know there’s many people who probably listen who are, who agree with it. But I’m telling you research wise, and as a teacher and just as a human being, you don’t think social emotional learning is necessary in school.
Cathy: That’s nuts.
Todd: Well, and you talk about team building and leadership, that’s all emotional stuff. Managerial and because we all have this device in our pocket called our phone and now that like it was one thing with Google, but now with chat GPTI honestly feel like knowledge I. Is so much less critical because, you know, I had to memorize stupid stuff when I was, when I was in school.
Todd: I’m sure that these kids are having to memorize stupid stuff. And it is, you know, like quoting, you know, memorizing a thing from Shakespeare. Remember I had to do a long thing on that, which is fine. Tomorrow, tomorrow, and tomorrow. Yeah. Everybody did that one. Um, or, um, they did to be or [00:13:00] not to be correct, correct.
Todd: Mm-hmm. So anyways, I, my point is knowledge is so accessible. And like, and I’m just thinking out loud here, like I have some friends who are engineers and I heard engineering school is like impossible. Mm-hmm. Like totally impossible. And now it’s getting to the point where you plug something into a computer and it’s gonna design a building for you.
Todd: Wow. So I’m just like, let’s figure out how to, kinda like what Cathy said, like how do we. Be a good listener. How do we, um, deal with conflict? Yeah. What does leadership look like? Mm-hmm. Like one of my leadership constraints as I continue to lead certain parts, uh, in my life is I’ve never been really good at like acknowledging people and blessing people for their efforts.
Todd: And now I’m like, oh my God, that’s like the most critical part of leadership. So people can feel acknowledged that they’re doing good work. And I’m just like, well, that’s your job and that’s not. The way to lead. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna acquiesce to you, [00:14:00] sweetie.
Cathy: Well, and that’s such a good example of there within the, I’m not gonna tell people good job, because it’s their job.
Cathy: There’s a belief system of that. You know, you’re doing more than you think. Mm-hmm. Like you’re giving yourself more credit for, oh, I finished this project, instead of realizing there’s. All these people who have been helping you make this project run, and again, we can connect this to the home. You know what, Todd and I always talk about emotional labor, like Todd’s ability to be good at his job and show up for things on time and do his work well necessitates me to do my job at home.
Cathy: Yeah. Like Todd couldn’t do all the things he did if I wasn’t here doing all the things I do, running the household and vice versa when I need to travel, which is less. Than Todd for sure. But I can also depend on Todd. Like you’re never doing it alone. No, that’s, and even like if you wanna really take it way out, like my ability to get somewhere necessitates an airplane and a pilot and a airport and roads to drive on.
Cathy: Like we are not doing anything by ourselves. We are a. Uh, you know, we are [00:15:00] all a team with each other and we should treat each other accordingly, and that’s why Okay. I am totally going off here. Yeah. And do a tangent, but that’s why treating people with kindness and respect is so essential. One of the things I get obsessed with is when I’m in my TikTok scroll and I see like people, they’ll sometimes call it like a real life Karen, or like, you know, customer gets mad and it’s very hard for me to look away.
Cathy: It’s almost like me watching a documentary ’cause I’m watching this person and they’re yelling at people and saying, you know, a police officer’s like, you need to leave this area, ma’am. No, I don’t. I know my rights. Mm-hmm. And I’m not gonna leave this area. And what’s your badge number and what’s your, and I’m like, I’m honestly feel like I’m watching like people in the wild, like, what makes you think that you and believe me, these, in these videos I see they’re not being treated poorly.
Cathy: This is not about. You know, police brutality or anything, they’re entitled. This is an entitlement. This is like a, you know, a belief system that they are the only ones who know things. And that is someone who has not been taught how to [00:16:00] critically think.
Yeah.
Cathy: They are lacking the ability to see other people’s perspectives, other people’s jobs is worthy and they think themselves to be the most important.
Cathy: And that’s, that’s somebody who’s isolated in their learning. Yeah. That’s not good. Um, so let’s get back on this, you know, this topic of education. Yep. So something that, um, when I first read this article, I kind of got all bent outta shape about it. It was actually the first person who I saw post it was our friend John Duffy.
Cathy: And he and I kind of went back and forth, had a good conversation. I’m always on board with Duffy. We don’t disagree on much at all. Um, and I said to him, ’cause you know, the beginning of the article, um, talks about like. Well, I’ll just read some stats just so you guys can hear some data. 74% of third graders say they love school.
Cathy: Okay? Pretty good. By 10th grade, only 26% of teens say they love school, although 65% of parents with 10th graders think their kids love school. So right there, there’s a disconnect with the parenting, right? So a lot of these [00:17:00] kids, they, in the article, they talk about how they’re just coasting. They’re in what, uh, researchers call passenger mode, how they’re just kind of floating through, trying to get things done, check things off the list, and they don’t, like Todd was saying, they don’t understand the point of school.
Cathy: I. I can Google this,
Todd: AI can give me this, and I’ve never heard the term passenger mode, but in the article it says, passenger mode told us that these kids felt simultaneously overwhelmed and bored.
Cathy: Okay. Okay. Worst feeling ever, right? Yeah. Right. Like where you’re like, I’m bored to death, but I have so much to do.
Cathy: Yeah. Like meaningless work to do. Yeah. You know, like, I have to fill out this form and do, it’s just meaningless. So the thing that I said, you know, that I wrote on social media to Duffy is that I. What I have seen in my community and around many communities, ’cause there’s many people that we now know and that I, um, that I follow, like Rachel Simmons and, um, Rosalyn Wiseman, who used to kind of work in parenting but now work in education.
Cathy: Like they work in different things. And so I, I’ve watched their research is that there are [00:18:00] educators. Many educators who want to do really different out of the box innovative things like just for example, in my own community, my daughters all had this fourth grade teacher that they adored. And one of the things she did when she went into, she was teaching history and she talked about the Titanic, is she did this whole Titanic thing where everybody had to be a certain passenger on the Titanic and they had a name and a background and they had to act it out.
Cathy: And this whole thing that my girls will never forget, they know everything about the Titanic, right? Mm-hmm. Really creative. The problem is, and this is, I’m, I’m still seeing this in my community, people who don’t like what the teacher is doing, and so they don’t want, their kid taught different things than they were taught.
Cathy: So they’re mad about the math program. They’re mad about the books that the kids are reading. Yeah, there’s like book. Burning people like who’re, like, we need to ban this book when the whole point of education is to learn and see through other people’s eyes. That’s the whole point. [00:19:00] I don’t understand this.
Cathy: P well I do because a lot of it’s based in religion. But you know, so I understand that they think that their way of think seeing the world is the only way, which that’s not critical thinking either. Um, but that we sometimes, my point that I’m getting to is we sometimes blame educators. For not being more creative or not giving them things to really focus on and, and talk about and have like really good debates because parents come in and they say, I don’t want my kid doing that.
Cathy: I don’t want my kid learning that.
Todd: Because some ideological thing. Correct. There’s an
Cathy: ideological difference. And they’re like, you’re indoctrinating my kid. You are teaching my kid dogma. And the thing is, is by you saying they can’t teach different perspectives. You’re indoctrinating like it’s this back and forth where the whole point of school.
Cathy: Is to learn how other people think, and it’s to step into your, into other people’s shoes. Like, you know, historical and, and when I’m talking about historical, I mean real history.
Like yeah. You
Cathy: know, like there’s some [00:20:00] history that we keep teaching the exact same thing, but you know, who was Christopher Columbus?
Cathy: You know? Yeah. Like, let’s. Give the whole perspective. Yeah. Not just
Todd: the one that, that our forefathers wanted us to know. Right?
Cathy: Like, let’s talk about these things and let’s engage with it. And you, you know, if you’re in a community where there’s one mindset or it’s not very diverse or whatever, don’t you want perspectives from other people and books from other people who have a different life experience?
Cathy: Don’t you wanna read Glo like global? You know, uh, things that are happening across the seas that we are not seeing and experiencing. Don’t you want your kids to know that? But what I see. Unfortunately is parents who come in and say, I don’t want my kid taught that, or I don’t want my kid taught that way, or I don’t want that book in the classroom.
Cathy: And so we end up blaming educators a lot of times for not, for doing a lot of like worksheets and regurgitation, but they get very boxed in. Yeah,
Todd: they get in trouble if they try to get outta the box.
Cathy: Correct. Not only by parents or a, you know, a school board or [00:21:00] whatever that may be trying to change things.
Cathy: Or alter things to their perspective. But they also, there’s a curriculum in the state that they’re, they have to teach. Yeah. Right’s a, they have
Todd: to teach, teach to the test, all that. You have to teach
Cathy: to a test, because that’s the way education is built. So there’s all this different, it’s just, if you can’t tell, my frustration is always in blaming the teacher.
Cathy: Yeah. When the teacher is, is kind of being boxed in by parents, by the curriculum of the state, by the expectations of the school, by the test scores that they have to reach, like. It’s very hard for them to not to go off, you know, off that task. Right.
Todd: Well, and um, I would love for anybody to criticize that, who criticizes teachers go teach a classroom, go teach a class.
Todd: It’s so, um, I just, my story is I volunteered at kindergarten and I had, I was in charge of four kids for half an hour and I was exhausted.
Cathy: Four kids. Yeah. And my first classroom was 32.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: So what, what a teacher, the [00:22:00] time that they, I remember the first thing I said when I was student teaching, I said to my lead teacher who wasn’t very good by the way.
Cathy: He would leave and go hang out in the principal’s office and leave me alone. Yes. Um, but I said to him, it’s unbelievable how much time I’m spending. On talking to them about their behavior. Mm-hmm. I’m feeling like I’m not getting any teaching done. I remember that was like my first like aha, which continued on, especially ’cause I was teaching at the hospital where behavior issues were the thing.
Cathy: So I was doing so much behavior intervention. But that’s the thing is parents and people who are in other modes of work, they’re like, I would go in and teach that class better and I’m telling ya. Give it a try. Mm-hmm. You just see if you can do what you think you can do. And I don’t mean to be a jerk about it, it’s just, it’s such a, that’s entitled too.
Cathy: Yeah. To think that you would somehow do that differently and you’re like, well, I would come in and put the hammer down. You can’t do that with kids. Not only is that not going, it’s gonna shut them down. Fear. Fear-based. It’s fear-based learning is
Todd: not. Good luck. A productive long-term strategy. Yeah.
Cathy: And if they don’t have a relationship with you that’s [00:23:00] positive, they’re, you know, that’s the No, no.
Cathy: Good. Yeah. So there’s a lot of things in that I just wanted to. You know, and this article did not blame teachers per se. That’s not what I’m saying. But there was a lot of like, you know, it’s talking about, well, it says, I, I, I have
Todd: this. Okay. It says, school system may need to adapt. Traditional teaching methods that emphasizes compliance over curiosity may contribute to disengagement.
Todd: More students, uh, driven learning could help. Yeah. Like of course there’s room for improvement. Yes, for sure. There’s room for improvement with anything that anybody is ever doing. So it’s not say. Teachers are perfect. They’re not, I’m not perfect as a sales rep, you’re not perfect as an author. No. None of us are perfect at anything.
Todd: So of course there’s opportunities to get better and it’s just really kind of shortsighted to just as a parent be like, oh, these teachers just need to get their act together.
Cathy: Yeah, and and I’m saying as somebody who not only has done it, but just knows a lot of teachers and have them in my family, and people will be like, well, don’t they get to go home at three and don’t they have summers [00:24:00] off?
Cathy: Most teachers work the summer. Most teachers tutor. Most teachers like have they, it’s not a thing where everyone’s laying around the pool and also their days, no, they don’t always go home at three. They often have to stay after, meet with parents, meet with kids, they coach the tennis team. They have a event that night.
Cathy: They have to go to the team. Well, are
Todd: full. I remember, um, and I can’t remember which teacher, and it, it’s happened multiple times, but they’re like, oh, I, I, I pay for supplies outta my own pocket. Oh, teachers pay for their own supplies to, yeah. To make. The education experience better. That’s not something they’re required to do.
Todd: They’re doing it because they want these kids to learn and this is the best way to do it.
Cathy: Well, a lot of teachers, depending on where they live, don’t have a choice. Yeah. Like there is no budget to decorate your room. Yeah. There is no budget to get these creative tools to teach your kids, so you end up paying for it.
Cathy: Yeah. Or you have an Amazon wishlist and you know, you let. People in your family know that’s what you want for Christmas. Like I’m speaking from experience, like you don’t have a budget for that because everybody thinks that you don’t need any money or [00:25:00] something. Right. It’s so like I am, I will forever until the day I die.
Cathy: Be an advocate for educators. So, so pivot over to parenting. Okay. So now that we’ve kind of talked about the education system, let’s talk about like how we can help our kids with learning. Um, you know, it in regards to being their parents. So we already talked about like the big picture, which is understanding what you want your kid to have from an education system.
Cathy: So I kind of already laid out what, what Todd and I were thinking, and I think I. Um, what a lot of parents, um, think is, I have to make my kids succeed. So their belief system is, yes, I want my kid to compete with other kids, and they do need to be the best and I want them to learn how to succeed. Now again, that, that word succeed.
Cathy: What does that mean? Yeah, like have a certain job, so you’re molding them to become a doctor from the time they’re five or become a,
Todd: well, let’s just say traditional success is I’m in a grade school. Well, I need to get into a good high school. I’m in high school. I need to get into a good college. I’m in college.
Todd: I need to [00:26:00] get a good job and good means high paying job race.
Cathy: Yeah. And there’s almost, as the rat race, there’s almost like a molding, like, you know, when they’re in fifth grade, I want them to be in the high learning group, uh, or reading group. When they’re in second grade, I want them to have this teacher once they’re in third, I want them to be in gifted or reach, there’s like this.
Cathy: Pushing the whole time versus watching how your kid learns and allowing them to kind of dictate that pattern. Hmm. You know what I mean? Like, do, do you wanna push ’em into a higher level math if they don’t know how to do higher level math? Like if they’re not quite there yet. Because just like kids who are learning to walk, all of our kids, especially as they’re going through puberty and developing, are gonna learn things at different times.
Cathy: Like, you know, the girls and I always talk about things that we learned really late, like. I was supposed to learn how to tell time in first or second grade. It took me years, like people would be like, oh, it’s whatever, it’s 4 52. I’d be like, how? How do you do that? Like, I couldn’t get it. And it took a while.
Cathy: And don’t even get me started on geometry. Like [00:27:00] my brain was like, what? But give me any literature book. And I could tell you every person’s character and their flaws. Like I, things I understood were more right brained things. Things that were more difficult for me were more left brained things. So. If I, if that’s, if that was me and I had a parent who’s like, yeah, but you need to be in a higher level math, that could have been a real problem.
Cathy: Mm-hmm. You know that that may not be what’s best for them and you’re not making them succeed more. Yeah. By pushing them in that direction. Yeah. So the real big thing in here is about they, they actually use, in the article, they use the word nagging. Mm-hmm. Okay. They did research around nagging because. I think a lot of parents do believe that.
Cathy: I, Todd and I know this ’cause we’ve been talking about schools for 15 years or however long we’ve been doing this show, and parents always say things like, I have to nag my kid, or what would, what do they say?
Todd: I have to nag my kid or else they’ll become complacent and they’ll never study. Right.
Cathy: They’ll never, they’ll never get things done.
Cathy: Yeah. If I don’t nag them, they’ll never get things [00:28:00] done. And. Um, I push back a little bit on that because if that’s the pattern you’ve created, then you’re a hundred percent right. Like, if that’s been the way you’ve done school with them since the beginning, then you’ve created a dance that you’re right.
Cathy: You, they don’t do anything until you nag them or threaten them or take away their allowance or whatever. And then they do it, but they’re not doing it ’cause they’re learning, they’re doing it to not get in trouble. Mm-hmm. So you, there’s a pattern that’s been created so. You know, and parents are like, well, this is the way I have to do it.
Cathy: I’m not like, no, you don’t. I’m like, okay, sounds like you’ve created this situation. This is the
Todd: dance that you guys have been dancing since whenever first grade.
Cathy: And so then some parents will say, well, if I don’t do this, then they won’t get into gifted, or they won’t get into this class, or they won’t do this.
Cathy: And I’m like, yeah. And how would that be? Would that be the worst thing?
Todd: Well, that’s the thing. Check yourself. Like, no, my kid has to be in the accelerated class. Right. Well, maybe your kid doesn’t have to be in the accelerated class. Maybe they do, but hopefully they do it based [00:29:00] on their own merit and not from you calling the school saying, get my kid into the accelerated thing.
Cathy: What if they’re in the class that’s for their grade level and they actually enjoy it and do really well? On their own and like their teacher and meet a good friend in that class and actually have an experience that is meaningful to them versus them. Kind of, just so you know, Todd and I have a million examples of this ’cause we have three girls who have gone through the education system.
Cathy: Our youngest is, uh, junior and you know, she, they’ve all taken classes where they’ve. Done things where they didn’t push themselves at all. Like, I’m gonna do this easy thing. And then they’ve all tried to like jump way ahead and have had really interesting experiences. Yeah.
Todd: Call it what it is. They’ve, they’ve been too far.
Todd: Jumped too far. But we did not tell them that No. To stretch themselves.
Cathy: No. Neither situation. We didn’t intervene.
Todd: Um, let them figure it out. And what’s interesting. You know, we have a junior in high school and we have two in college. [00:30:00] Um, none of it, man, this is, that didn’t come out right. It’s less important than I think a lot of us parents think it is.
Todd: Mm-hmm. But junior year is kind of an important one because there’s a lot on the line because that’s your last, all that crap. Yeah. So I kind of get it a little bit more than when the kid’s in fifth grade or eighth grade or freshman year, like let these kids, I remember we were at the middle school, Mr.
Todd: Gale, I think that was his name. Mm-hmm. He’s like, this is middle school. Let your kids fail. Let them figure out what it means to flunk a test. Let them figure it out, what it means to, um. Totally the word be bored. Totally bail on a term paper and realize that they’re getting like, ’cause they, that learning is so much more important than you helping them write the paper the night before.
Cathy: And the thing you have to understand about human beings and especially kids, is they want to learn. So if you’ve gotten really cynical and you’ve gotten really, like, I hate school, or I [00:31:00] have a, like a, I’m defensive about it, or I have like an issue, like traumatic issues with school. Okay, then maybe you don’t like to learn, but most human beings really love learning.
Cathy: So if you trust that about your kid, that they actually wanna like learn. I’m not saying they wanna go to school ’cause school’s a whole different thing. There’s social and expectations and pressure. They like learning. If you can trust that, then you can kind of allow, allow this parent this, you know, things to unfold the way they should.
Cathy: Like I know I will get emails or pushback because I have a lot of friends. We live outside Chicago, so I have a lot of friends who live in Chicago. They’re in a completely different school system situation. So we live in a suburb, and so we have a public school. So the kids just kind of keep moving along.
Cathy: Good public school that
Todd: everybody gets into basically.
Cathy: Yeah, everybody just goes to school and keeps moving along. In Chicago, and this may be true for other big, you know, cities, um, it’s a whole process to get into a public school. Very
Todd: competitive. Very competitive.
Cathy: Very competitive. And when we say very competitive, [00:32:00] we mean like your kid has to like not have a flaw Yeah.
Cathy: On their, they have to have all A’s. Lots of experiences by seventh grade. Yeah. Okay. So seventh grade is like their junior year of high school. Mm-hmm. It’s like that’s when they figure out what high school they can get into and the for to, for a public high school. Yeah. And so there’s several that are really good.
Cathy: I won’t bore you with all the details, but, but now I, because I, so many of my friends have kids who have gone through high school or who are starting this process, there are other options. If you have a kid who it does not get into one of these public schools. There are private schools and there are, you know, other community schools that you can go to.
Cathy: They may not be the, the channel to, you know, to the ivy that you were expecting. Um, but again, even these really good public schools in Chicago, your kid isn’t guaranteed to get in anywhere. Of course. It’s just a bigger Yeah. Deal. So, but I’ve also watched my friends send their kids to different schools around the area and some in suburbs and.
Cathy: You know, really found better fits for their [00:33:00] kid. So a lot of times, and, and the kids who end up getting straight A’s and doing really well, that may be their natural way of learning. They’re good test takers, they’re good. You know, like they’re kind of on that path naturally. And the parents aren’t necessarily nagging them and pushing them.
Cathy: That’s just where they’re going. Yeah. You know that there’s different ways of learning, so. I just wanted to say that because I always get emails about you don’t
Todd: understand. Right, yeah. Because it’s true. Yeah. They, they live in a different, uh, environment academically than we do, uh, in our community.
Cathy: And, you know, and the only, and that I’ll connect to it is there are other options.
Cathy: Yeah. If your kid does not get into one of those schools, I have seen so many of my friends do other things. Sure. Um, so with that said, you know, the, there’s all sorts of stats. Like, I don’t know how much data I wanna read to you guys, but, um. It basically is just talking. I’ll just give it in basics. It says that parents who nag their kids about, did you turn this in?
Cathy: You know, how’d you do on your test? All those kind of things that their children do [00:34:00] poorer in school, that they actually don’t like learning as much. And not only that, but socially, emotionally, they are very frustrated by the expectations of school and the pressure from their parents. Like for example, one kid in the article said.
Cathy: I would much rather get an 87, which is still really good, but 87 on a test that I studied for and that I figured out how to learn than my mom pressuring me and you know, making me study with her and getting a 92, because then I feel like that was my mom. Mm-hmm. That wasn’t me. Yeah. And so, you know, and we may say, but they have to get an A and 87 to B, and then again, we gotta zone, we gotta pull back out and be like, what do you think education is?
Cathy: You know, like what do you, is it about telling everybody that your kid did perfect on everything or got a 31 on an SAT? Like why are you so focused and scared?
Todd: Can I play, um, famous scene from Breakfast Club where the kids are all around the circle. Sure. Doing their [00:35:00] confessions. There’s some F bombs in here.
Todd: I’ll try to beep ’em out, but here we go. Okay.
Todd: Say Andrew talking about his dad.
Yeah, he’s like this. He’s like this mindless machine that I can’t even relate to anymore. Andrew, you’ve got to be number one. I won’t tolerate any losers in this family. Your intensity is for shit. Win, win, win. You son, bitch,
you know, sometimes. My knee would give and I wouldn’t be able to wrestle anymore. He could forget all about me. I think your old man and my old man should get together and go bowling. Your friends wouldn’t mind because they look up to us.[00:36:00]
Cathy: That’s a different scene still.
I’ll let rise.
Cathy: Good focus.
You like full of yourself? Why are you like that? I’m not saying that to be conceited. I hate it. I hate having to go along with everything my friends say. Then why do you do it?
Todd: Too much
Cathy: if this is about their peer relationships versus education.
Todd: I think, well, he, Andrew talks about the pressure he has right, too.
Todd: So, anyways, true or not, Andrew? Brian.
Cathy: Brian does, but it kind of takes a while to get to, he talks about the lamp and, you know, his, his pressure and a lot of it is, um, identity. What’s the identity like? Have you talked about your kid? One of your kids is the smart one, and one of your kids always gets straight A’s, or one of your kids loves, you know, like, have you made, this is my athlete?
Cathy: Yeah. Have you made school your kid’s identity? Mm-hmm. Or have you made an something like, you know, wrestling or any kind of other, you know. Um, athletic or [00:37:00] group extracurr, whatever, extracurricular, whatever. Have you made that their identity where they can’t break out of it? Mm-hmm. Or is that just something they do in school and again.
Cathy: I understand that there are social implications for kids not doing well. There are, you know, worries about what’s gonna look good on a college application. I, like I said, I have two kids in college and I have a kid who’s a junior, so I live it, but that’s where the self-awareness comes in. Where you have to be like, yes, I see the pressure.
Cathy: Yes, I see the expectation. Now how do I wanna do this? Yeah. How do I wanna do this where I stay engaged with my kid, where my kid enjoys learning, where my kid is doing something that works for them rather than doing something that I think other people will be excited about. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
Cathy: Like the parent, you know, something Todd and I have talked about a lot is that there’s a day at, um, our high school and at most high schools around Chicagoland, where they actually wear the sweatshirt of the college that they have committed to. Mm-hmm. And I know stories of kids committing to [00:38:00] a certain college, not because they wanted to go there, they actually liked the smaller one better, but because they wanted a better sweatshirt for sweatshirt day.
Yikes.
Cathy: So that, that is a, that is indicative. Of, I need to externally show people I’m smart in some extreme way when they’re not even really looking at you. They only care really about themselves and what their kids are doing. I. And that’s an external belief system. Instead of an internal, what do I want?
Todd: Intrinsic motivation.
Cathy: And not all kids wanna go to college. Like, let’s be real. Like I have so many friends whose kids have kind of like, maybe they took a gap year or they started working right away and they’re figuring it out. Like one of my girlfriend’s sons is gonna go back and um, he’s gonna become a mechanic.
Cathy: And he’s ecstatic about it. Where school has been so challenging for him. He’s super smart, like he knows how to learn, but he hasn’t. Seeing a career path that he wants until he is like, I love cars, I wanna work on cars. And be really good at that. Amen. [00:39:00] I have another, um, kid that I know really well who kind of wasn’t sure where he wanted to go and he started doing this internship and he loves it and he’s like, maybe this is an area that I’m gonna hopefully grow into.
Cathy: But he never would’ve had that experience if he had gone a really traditional path.
Todd: You ready for all time Wars, dad? Sure. Uh, depo Society Dad.
Cathy: Oh boy, Neil, my son.
We’re trying very hard to understand why it is that you insist on defying us. Whatever the reason, we’re not gonna let you ruin your life tomorrow.
I’m withdrawing you from Wellton and enrolling you in Brighton Military School. You’re going to Harvard and you’re gonna be a doctor.
That’s 10 more years. Father, that’s a lifetime stop. It’ll be so dramatic. You make it sound like a prison term you don’t understand. Neil, you have opportunities that I never even dreamt of, and I am not going to let you [00:40:00] raise. I’ve gotta tell you what I feel. So tell me what you feel.
What is it?
Of this, this acting business.
Todd: So funny ’cause I’ve seen this movie a bazillion times and I wonder if in that moment he decides he’s gonna die by suicide. He’s done.
Cathy: He just knows that sharing how he feels with his dad is not going to make a difference. Yeah, because his dad is not feelings based. No. His dad has a plan.
Cathy: His dad is gonna have him do it and he’s gonna have him do it because the dad had an exper. Now here’s the thing about like, uh, generational issues that dad probably had no opportunities. He was probably raised in the depression area. He has reasons for his kid for wanting his kid to succeed in a certain way.
Cathy: You know, like it’s not that that parent is, you know, [00:41:00] oblivious to why he’s doing what he’s doing, but is how is that working for his kid? Like, does he really need. It, it does this kid need to do what he did? And what if he went a different direction? Could he still be successful? And I’m using that word, meaning happy.
Cathy: Yeah. Content in his life, doing what he loves. Maybe he won’t have as much money as his dad did. Maybe his kids won’t go to private school. An all boys school. Maybe that that’s not an option. That’s and maybe, but it’s not an option. And then here’s the thing. If you, sorry to ruin Dead Poet society, but Neil, um, like Todd said, um, dies by suicide.
Cathy: Okay. So, um, that’s a very extreme and it’s a movie thing, right? It is. My big thing though is that I see parents push, push, push, push their kids. Yeah. Until their kid does have something dramatic, a mental health crisis, an eating disorder, um, disconnection, rebelliousness, um, you know, school refusal, and then they have to [00:42:00] unwind everything and kind of figure that back out and they lose months and years and dis and they get disconnected from their kids.
Cathy: So my thing is always, why don’t we do things where those. Coping mechanisms or those mental health crises don’t happen. Yeah. And instead of, you know, or you know, that worst case scenario of your kid, you know, actually believing they have no options. Like, that’s horrifying. Yeah. And so, like, you know, I’ll read this.
Cathy: Um, it’s some easy data for us. It says, um. The research found that when parents see their role as surveillance, such as commanding that homework be completed and looking at, you know, so schoolology and. PowerSchool and everything. Their kid achievement drops and students are less engaged. Okay. So there’s the data.
Cathy: Yeah. You know, we’ve been saying this forever, but again, what’s the big picture for your kid? It’s not [00:43:00] buckle down and get an A on a test. It’s what are you learning? What are you interested in? Um, tell me about this. Oh my gosh, I never learned that. Show me how you do that problem. Engage with their learning, not with their outcomes.
Cathy: I. Sometimes your kid. We have found in our experience that that’s been really beneficial
Todd: for sure.
Cathy: All three of our girls are very different learners. They’re good at different things. They’re not all the same, but their ability to manage their own life in school. Yeah. Not only has kept, has allowed us to not have to get into it with ’em.
Cathy: It’s
Todd: easier this way.
Cathy: I know
Todd: there, there’s enough pressure on them based on their peers, based on their school, based on society, based on billboards, based on tv. Our job is to support these kids as they navigate this very complicated life. And you’d be like, well, when I was their age, I didn’t get the support from my mom and dad.
Todd: I’m like, yes, that’s. Probably true, but try something different. See how it works,
Cathy: and can we break that apart and be like, is that really [00:44:00] support? Like what does support mean? Like for example, support to me means if your kid comes to you and say, I’m really struggling with this class, they’re able to tell you because they don’t feel like you’re gonna jump all over them.
Cathy: And then we can say things like, okay, do you need help from me? Do you need a tutor? Is there a math lab? Is there like, we can help them? Like that, we should help them.
Todd: But you have to make sure your kid thinks that you’re, he’s, that you are on their side. Side or team, their side. Yeah. That’s the, that’s if I’m gonna put this kind of on a post-it note, be on your kid’s team and nagging does not work.
Todd: It might work short term wise. You can nag your kid to finish their homework assignment so that they turn it in the next day. But the cost of that from a relationship standpoint, from a trust standpoint, is not close to being worth it.
Cathy: And then, you know. If your kid has some, you know, neurodiversity or A DHD where they struggle with turning things in or, or things are difficult for them to manage, then we help them with that, with their executive functioning.
Cathy: If it’s, they need an IEP or a 5 [00:45:00] 0 4, or we get them someone to, you know, support them, or we write things on a board every day that we remind them to do, like. This doesn’t mean pull out completely and don’t help. This means help in a way that your kid feels supported rather than pressured. It’s like you are, you are a guide.
Cathy: You are not the director. Right. You are someone who’s like walking alongside them as they’re on the balance beam. Sure. So anyway, this article, Todd will link to it below. Yeah. Um, and, uh, you know, this is probably not new if you’ve been listening to Zen Parenting for a a long time. I just, it’s good
Todd: reinforcement.
Cathy: I just appreciate the data. Yeah. ’cause a lot of times people will say, I have to do this. This is the way we get our kids to succeed. And we have to redefine what success means. Um, as far as helping our kids have their integrity and character and joy in the world and doing what they’re good at and focusing on being good learners and curious learners, rather than fulfilling some dream, we, we dreamed up for them.
Cathy: ’cause that’s our dream.
Todd: That’s right. You [00:46:00] dream your dream. Let them dream their dream. That’s right. Uh, by Cathy’s book, join Team Zen. Thanks to Jeremy Kraft Avid company painting and remodeling throughout the Chicagoland area, 6 3 0 9 5 6 1800. Tell ’em Todd, Cathy sent you. Keep tracking everybody.
Round two. Change a little bit. And change a little bit. Pretty pleasant.
