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Todd: Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 807. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding. And I always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s well being is a parent’s self understanding. On today’s show, we are going to talk a little bit about a rabbit.
Todd: We’re going to talk
Cathy: a little bit.
Todd: Yeah, that’s why I said a little bit.
Cathy: Okay,
Todd: we’re going to talk about an episode of a Netflix Series, it’s a miniseries, I guess, four episodes, four episodes series, called Adolescence. Um, and a few other things, but let’s first start, um, Kathy wrote a blog last Friday. On her, [00:01:00] her sub stack and it was about our beautiful pet bunny rabbit that we had to put down a week, no, it was two weeks ago, Sunday.
Cathy: Yeah. And I know you’re exactly right. I just like to think that I, I, she passed away because she was very old and frail and was not able to walk anymore. So yes, we had to make that choice, but I can’t stand that part. of the conversation. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It’s like the hardest part of having a pet and having them fail and then having to decide what
Todd: to do.
Todd: We kept this rabbit alive. Uh, and you know, full transparency, I used to make fun of pet owners who would keep their pet alive longer than it seemed like the quality of life was not as good and you know, And I’m talking to the other pet owners out there. You know what I’m talking about. If you’re not a pet owner, you’re like, what are you talking about?
Todd: Like where people are like carrying their animals outside to go pee. And like from a, an objective point of view, I’m [00:02:00] like, um, if, if I’m not connected to the animal and if they can’t do everything that they need to do, then that’s their time and our rabbit. It declined slowly and we were doing so many things to kind of keep this rabbit on her feet literally and not like lay in her own urine.
Todd: And we did that for like a few months and it just got to be too much. We didn’t do it for a few
Cathy: months. We did it for seven months. Yeah. That’s
Todd: a long
Cathy: time. I went back like and looked at pictures from like July. I’m like, Oh, we were already doing pee pads. Yeah. Like we, and it was meant we needed to do it that way because she was.
Cathy: She was starting to, she only had three legs to begin with. So her back leg gave out, but she was still okay. She was eating, doing everything. We just had to help her. And then as time went on, she couldn’t see anymore. Her front leg failed. It was just, it was, it was time, it was time, but
Todd: it
Cathy: took us a while to get there.
Todd: And it was awful. And we [00:03:00] decided, um, that we had the doctor, euthanizer lady come over to our house on Sunday. Our daughters came in from college. There was this anticipatory thing going on the whole weekend. It was like one of my worst weekends of all time.
Cathy: to come. And so much of it before we even knew what we were doing.
Cathy: Cause like Todd and I were on a trip in California. Well, I mean, I could go back months. Like we, we, we went away for Thanksgiving and we’re like, is she going to be okay when we’re gone? We went away for Christmas. And then a couple of weeks ago we went to California and we’re like, when we come home, what are we going to do?
Cathy: Cause this rabbit is like sleeping all day. It’s like the most awful experience as a pet owner to like have to make these decisions. And Todd and I have, you know, I’ve. supported both of my parents before their passing, um, you know, doing hospice care and everything. And the, obviously these are my parents and it’s different.
Cathy: The thing that’s interesting though is with a pet, like we knew when it was coming,
Todd: you know, [00:04:00] like with, we knew that she was going to, the doctor lady was going to come, Dr. Amy was going to come and it was awful. Yeah, it was awful. And my experience of that day was I was a mess. I, if you’ve listened to this podcast long enough, you’ve heard me say something like, I can’t feel my feelings, blah, blah, blah.
Todd: Well, that was not a problem. on that Sunday and I’m very proud to say that all the tears came and I’m just so grateful for this little rabbit being a beacon of life, a beacon of light in our life for the last 11 years. So happy. Yeah, it was
Cathy: wonderful. And when I say it was awful for us emotionally, Dr.
Cathy: Amy was amazing. The, our vet was amazing. Our children were amazing. Our neighbors were amazing. Like everyone was so supportive. Your sister gave us this awesome painting. I mean, so people were really lovely. My sister dropped off a full chocolate cake. So I had cake the whole weekend. Thank God I needed those kinds of things.
Cathy: Like, so it was, um, it just is. And Todd’s like, let’s be right before we started. He’s like, let’s talk about it. And I’m like, I still don’t like talking [00:05:00] about it. Like it’s still, you know, I think anybody who, it’s only been a few weeks and it’s very hard and sad and our house is very different and she was very important to us.
Cathy: And we started the podcast 14 years ago and, um, she was 11, but we had, we had had a rabbit a year before that. So we basically always had a rabbit in our house that we’ve been doing the podcast. And um, And now we don’t, and it’s very strange. So those of you who
Todd: get it, get it. House feels empty. Yeah. Um, so, and before we get into this Netflix show, a few things.
Todd: We have a, uh, Zen talk, uh, a week from Thursday. I don’t know what number it is. My number should be up there, but it’s not like a hundred and whatever. Um, and then this Thursday there is a community of people on TeamZen that have children with, who are identified as differently wired. So that’s happening this Thursday.
Cathy: So that’s all through TeamZen. So, and then I have a Women’s Circle coming up in two weeks. And so if you want to participate in [00:06:00] any of these conversations or be a part of our virtual community, scroll below and you can sign up for TeamZen. And I also have something coming up. in collaboration with Growing Our Girls, which is based out of, um, North Carolina, I think.
Cathy: And we’re doing a virtual, um, kind of book club experience where if you’ve read Restoring Our Girls, um, I’m going to be on Zoom and Growing Our Girls, the, their organization is, you know, sponsoring it. They’re the ones who are running it. Um, but if you’re interested, again, scroll below, um, and there’s a link to sign up and that is on the 25th, I believe, um, it’s next week or yeah, it’s next week.
Cathy: So just another opportunity to talk about, uh, raising
Todd: daughters. And as long as we’re promoting opportunities this Thursday, uh, Medliving does a weekly full house, which is an open meeting to all men. Uh, this one is specific about fatherhood and we started this in the beginning of March, but I’m leading my first one this Thursday.
Todd: So if any other dads out there want to get on and talk about the, the, the [00:07:00] joys and the trials of being a dad, uh, please, uh, scroll down and click on the link below. And then lastly, September 11th of this year, uh, my good friend Mike and I are leading a men living weekend in Virginia. And the theme is dark side of the moon by Pink Floyd.
Todd: It is, um, Got a little music here.
Todd: It’s one of my favorite albums of all time. I happen to be listening to the album while in yoga, which I’m not supposed to do, but I have my earbuds, my AirPods in, and I’m like, this has got to be a theme for a weekend. So if you don’t know what a men living weekend is, it’s one part connecting with yourself, other men and mother nature.
Todd: It’s one part personal growth and it’s one part fun. If you’re interested, scroll down, click on more information, September 11th through the 14th in Callaway. Virginia one part fun. Yes, that’s it. That’s what separates us from other men’s organizations because it’s so intense and You know when we did this in Virginia last year, we [00:08:00] played wiffle ball for three hours, right?
Todd: It was wonderful. Yeah
Cathy: play Yeah,
Todd: let’s put that’s
Cathy: for all humans have
Todd: some play. All right, so
Cathy: No,
Todd: Kathy and I Just finished watching this Netflix Episode I didn’t watch the entire series. It’s only four. I watched the third episode cause Kathy thought it was one that might create a interesting discussion between the two of us.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: So I, I, I heard about it just came out a few days ago, so it’s, we’re kind of, you know, it’s, it’s there for you. Uh, just got released. I read something about it, you know, or someone sent me something and then I watched it yesterday and I told Todd immediately. I texted our friend John Duffy. I said, you have to watch this because in a nutshell, Todd and I are going to, we are going to bring in elements of, it’s a four part series and I’ll bring in elements from, uh, one, two and four, but really we’re talking about, um, three.
Cathy: Okay. So we’re just going to talk about that episode because of what happens in it. [00:09:00] Like what’s, what’s going on. Um, And that the gist is, and I’m not giving anything away by saying this, the, it, the, the show is not about did this person do this? The show is about a boy who is 13 who stabs a girl who is 13.
Cathy: And kills her. And kills her. Murders her. And it was based on, um, it was written because over the last couple of years in the UK, they were noticing that there were. There were more stabbings occurring, there were more like, you know, men murdering women with a knife. And what was most uncomfortable about it is something like somewhere between 17 and 20 percent of them were done by children.
Cathy: Okay, so children meaning preteens, 13 year olds, you know, under 18. Um, and so this series was created to talk about this one specific case, it’s fictional, but it’s kind of an amalgam. of a lot of issues that are going on when it comes to boys and, [00:10:00] and the system and the schools and there’s a lot of commentary.
Cathy: You may watch it. You can watch the show in a bunch of different ways. I watched it as a therapist and as somebody who thinks about. Um, gender dynamics all the time, who thinks about girls and focusing on their health and well being and then a husband who focuses on boys and men’s well being. I’m watching it through a lens of a more clinical, in a more clinical way.
Cathy: Um, that’s why I was pretty like overwhelmed by the whole thing. If you watch it just as a fictional story, you may just be like, Oh, interesting. Okay. It just depends. Um, episode three. Thank you. Is focused, is, first of all, the show is a one, it, it, they use one camera the whole time. No cuts.
Todd: Yeah. Okay. So the episode we watched was like 50 minutes long and it was one shot.
Todd: One take. For 50 minutes. It’s kind of like a, a play. Yeah. That happens to be in front of a camera.
Cathy: Exactly.
Todd: So
Cathy: like one take, they’re very well, very well acted. So like Todd said, it’s, it’s set up more like theater, even though it [00:11:00] doesn’t feel like theater. It feels like a movie or feels real. I mean, let’s be clear.
Cathy: So, um, it is, it starts with a therapist who is coming to see the 13 year old boy who has been accused of this murder. of this 13 year old girl and she, the whole intention of her going is she’s getting an assessment of him about whether he understands what he did so she can offer that to the judge and to, you know, when he goes to court.
Cathy: So this happens all the time in our country too. You need to get assessments from different therapists, could be school counselors. you know, uh, supplied by the court, supplied by the prosecution or defense to assess the person who’s being in charge. So you can give kind of a clinical mental health evaluation.
Cathy: So that’s what she’s coming to do. Okay.
Todd: Yeah. And, um, Kathy and I talked a little bit about this. Sometimes when we prep for a show, we were like, should we save it for the show? Like, so Kathy and I don’t have a complete plan on, we haven’t talked about it yet. All this conversation is going to go. Um, but our hope is that [00:12:00] you will watch this series.
Todd: I will definitely watch episodes one, two, and four, which is. It’s not, I haven’t watched any of them yet, but, um, I think it’s an awareness raiser. So our hope is you get engaged with this discussion that Kathy and I are going to have, and that you go ahead and, and watch this if you, if you have the bandwidth and the willingness to do so.
Cathy: I, uh, and just giving again, the big overview, it has a lot. to, to share about gender dynamics and about, um, male rage and about male entitlement, about bullying, um, about, uh, how we’re raising sons, what our sons are seeing online. And so Todd, I’m going to start with this. I, when I was telling Todd yesterday, cause I watched all of the whole series this weekend, I said, Todd, you know, a lot of it is about the manosphere.
Cathy: And I said, and I, I. kind of know what that is. You know, I understand the aspects of it, the Andrew Tate of it all, the, you know, the sometimes Joe Rogan guests, the, you know, kind of the belief system around men and their, um, [00:13:00] uh, well, let me just, I’m not even going to keep going. What do you think the Manosphere
Todd: is?
Todd: What does that mean? So, I’m going to read a definition here in a second, but I’m not going to cheat on the definition. The way I interpret the Manosphere, it’s a word that showed up in my awareness years ago, probably three years ago, I don’t remember how far ago, how long ago, but it was a word to describe Like the first word I think of is incels, and some people don’t even know what an incel is.
Todd: An incel is involuntary celibates, which means that there’s a boy out there who wants to have sexual relations with women, but the women have no interest in them. The one thing I didn’t know about what they said in the show is the 80 20 rule, and that is 80 percent of women or girls only want to be romantically or sexually connected with 20 percent of the men.
Todd: So the other 80 percent of the boys and men are stuck without having any partner.
Cathy: And let me say, let’s just start right there. And then you can [00:14:00] continue with the manosphere. This is a statistics that’s not necessarily true and is not based in more. There’s more. in depth reasoning to why people say it, why it may be.
Cathy: Like, I know a lot of people will say, well the stats are this, you know, men will swipe on more women than women will swipe on men. And so then we say, so men are more open to dating lots of different women where women aren’t. And the thing that I have to say, and I think I’m gonna repeat this over and over again, is there are reasons why women have to be more careful.
Cathy: about who they date and who they have come pick them up and who they meet out and who they have drinks with. So it’s not always about women being picky or wanting to, to have someone who has more money or more status or fame. It’s about, there has to be more scrutiny when it comes to who you’re going to go out with.
Cathy: So, sometimes we look at these things like an 80 20 thing, and we’re like, oh, you know, men are more open to swiping on 61 percent of women, where, you know, women only swipe on 23 percent of men. But [00:15:00] there are 80, 000 reasons why that are not just about women are picky. Right. Okay, so I’m just saying that because we’re gonna throw around a lot of Manosphere language, and I have to kind of, I have to like put more information inside of that so we don’t walk away thinking that’s true.
Todd: Thank you. Okay. Okay. Um, so. Um, when I Googled, cause sometimes I’m not good at defining stuff. Sure. Um, it, the manosphere is a network of online communities and forums focused on men’s issues, often with a strong emphasis on masculinity, gender dynamics, and men’s rights. And then there are these key subgroups within the manosphere.
Todd: And I had to look these up and I’ve heard of most of them. One is men’s right activists. And for me, like, that sounds good. Like I could see it. You know, for some reason, my brain always goes to divorce dads. I know that the laws are sometimes, um, biased towards women when it comes to divorces and child custody and things like that, like, Hey, I’m, I’m on board.
Todd: But then it gets a little, a little bad. [00:16:00] MGTOW, men going their own way, encourages men to disengage from relationships and marriage with women, often citing feminism. as harmful to men. That’s the second group. Third group are pickup artists. I think we all know what that means. Fourth group is incels. And then there’s something called the red pill community.
Todd: That’s named after the matrix. This group believes men have been awakened to the supposed realities of female nature and the oppressive nature of feminism. The core themes, as it says, at least on this website is anti feminism. Traditional gender roles, sexual strategy, and alpha beta male dynamics, critiques of modern dating and marriage, and in some cases, self improvement and personal development.
Todd: Somewhere in there. Yeah, somewhere buried in there. So, um, yeah, I, and I feel like in Living, we’re trying to balance out this, um, whatever this Manosphere thing is, and, and create opportunities for guys to feel their feelings, I’m guessing in the Manosphere, um, feeling your feelings are discouraged [00:17:00] at men living and other amazing men’s organizations out there.
Todd: We principle is we have feelings, not just the angry ones. It’s the sadness, the fear. I actually watched a Bill Burr stand up yesterday and he talked to his, he talked, he told the story through a comedic lens about how he told his wife he was sad and his wife didn’t know what to do with that because he’s never said that ever.
Todd: So anyways, I’m going to pause there and just let you jump back in, sweetie.
Cathy: Yeah. So Manosphere is basically extremist digital sexism, right? You know, it’s like, um, it’s male, um, supremacy. Right? And, you know, let’s differentiate between sexism and misogyny, just for this conversation. So sexism is the belief that women are inferior, and that trans people are inferior, non binary people are inferior.
Cathy: But let’s just focus, for this conversation, let’s focus on just the traditional binary of men, women, okay? Understanding that it includes more. So, it’s a belief that That’s sex, sexism, women are inferior to men and misogyny is the hateful or controlling attitudes or [00:18:00] behaviors that result from sexism.
Todd: Well, and I just want to pause there and say, my hope is that if there’s a mom or a dad listening to this podcast, that if you’re not aware of some of these things, the manosphere This is an opportunity for you to engage in a discussion with your sons and your daughters about this word. Like, cause I, I have certain people in my life, certain groups in my life, like why are you giving attention to this little corner of men when most of the other men are not out there doing these things?
Todd: And my answer is. There is a, an emergency out there happening and we need to bring awareness of it and hopefully empower the good men to stand up and connect with these men who are lost. And I will share. When I was watching this episode, this young 13 year old boy who is a character in a Netflix series, as you said, like [00:19:00] in certain moments, he looked like monster, looked like a monster.
Todd: He was like mad and screaming, getting in the therapist’s face. And then there’s other times where you just feel nothing but empathy because you know that this kid got screwed up somewhere along the way. He’s a
Cathy: sweet young man who was led astray by the information that he was fed and shown by the culture.
Cathy: Yeah. Yeah. And let me say this to make this even more difficult. When Todd started watching it, he looked at me and he said, Oh, is his dad really awful? No, his dad’s not awful. His dad, I will talk a little bit about his dad and his grandfather. I’ll get into that and the basics, but see, we like to point fingers and say, this is the only reason why.
Cathy: Bad
Todd: parenting. That’s the first thing I do is bad parenting, bad parenting. In this fictional case, it was not bad parenting. And it might be from the manosphere, like this guy. this kid, this guy, this 13 year old boy, um, asked some girl out on a date or, or he was too, excuse me, too scared to, and, um, then he probably got online and started saying, [00:20:00] how come women all reject me?
Todd: And then all of a sudden he got scooped into the manosphere.
Cathy: Well, and he had already seen it. And that’s. the thing I think, okay, so like you said, there’s some people in your life who may be like, why are we focusing on this? Um, because the manosphere helped with our last election and got this person that we is our leader right now of the United States elected.
Cathy: I mean a, a big piece, like I’m not saying it’s the only piece I’m not, there are other people who did as well, but. the belief systems from the manosphere have leaked into mainstream. Okay. Yeah. It’s not this
Todd: corner. No,
Cathy: it’s not a corner. So anybody who’s like, Oh, that’s just bad people. And we’re good people.
Cathy: It doesn’t work like that. There are, that’s what this show is showing you is you’ve got a sweet 13 year old boy who has done something horrendous and there isn’t all bad and all good. There is misinformation. formed and there is not, as adults in a society, not paying attention. So anybody who says we shouldn’t be focusing on this, that’s part of the problem.
Cathy: It’s not a focus of pointing [00:21:00] at men and saying men are bad. That’s binary too. It’s saying what is being shared and why? What are people seeing online and why? Just like I, working with women and girls, I also focus on manosphere. I just didn’t realize. Yep. Anyway, I, what I focus on with girls is the social, social media.
Cathy: They are being exposed to how eating disorders affects them, how their self-worth is affected by what people are doing to their faces and skin. How their belief system around what they need to look like, where smell like, sound like affects their sense of self. Okay. So I’m focusing a lot on what the internet is feeding girls.
Cathy: Okay. But as someone who works with girls and women, I have to pay attention to what. is being fed to boys and men because, you know, I said to Todd, like at the end of episode three, I’ve watched it twice and I cried both times because just to kind of set the stage a little bit, the therapist who walks in to talk to this young boy named Jamie, um, she is a woman, she’s probably in her late [00:22:00] thirties, early forties.
Cathy: and she is coming to talk to him, um, for the fifth time. Okay. Cause she’s getting an assessment. The, the mail guard who is letting her in says, why are you here again? The other guy, because they always get two assessments. The other psychologist who was a male, he only needed to come three times. Why do you need to come again?
Cathy: She’s like, please don’t tell me anymore because I’m not supposed to hear about his assessment. I’m supposed to be independent of his assessment. But right off the bat, there is a. You know, and this is on purpose. It’s not me trying to dig super deep. There is an ex, you know, there is a, a guy did it better and quicker and why are you here again?
Cathy: Um, and just another
Todd: dig,
Cathy: just another dig and there, and you know, when she’s trying to assess him at one point, the guard is looking over his shoulder telling her what she should be looking at, you know, think mansplaining, you know, all of this is on purpose. And she is also in a situation with Jamie where you, you know, you will watch this breakdown yourself if you watch it, but where he [00:23:00] does go from sweet boy to trying to overpower her, to try and, um, intimidate her to, there is a whole experience going on of him being a boy than trying to be a man.
Cathy: And she is having to sit and deal with this constant flow of, of a kid who’s really messed up. Yeah.
Todd: She’s holding space. Yes. Being super professional. Uh, you know, she had so many ways of being like, screw this. I’m out. Right. Because nobody deserves to be talked to the way this 13 year old troubled character was being taught.
Todd: And let me be clear.
Cathy: It’s not just about, he’s disrespecting me. I’m an adult. It’s not that. No, no, no, no. He’s threatening her.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: So, it’s not, because sometimes we’re like, you know, you, you know, you don’t talk to me that way. It’s more than that.
Todd: No, no. He was just getting in her face, being very threatening.
Cathy: Exactly. And I said to Todd, the reason that I cry at the end or that it moves me, and I don’t think it just moves me, I think it has moved a lot of people, is first of all, in a much more [00:24:00] minimal way. I have never worked with a kid who has, um, you know, murdered another person that I’m aware of. Um, but I, you know, I worked with enough boys and young men.
Cathy: in, when I was first in psychiatry who were very threatening, who did hurt me, who hit me or, you know, kind of hit me in the back or pushed me. I actually had to stop doing it while I was pregnant because that was unsafe for me. Like I used to work in a psychiatric unit and when you are sitting there being threatened by a 12 year old, 13 year old, 15 year old boy, there’s a lot going on for you as a woman because you know that that’s a kid.
Cathy: But if you’ve had any experiences with male violence, or being harmed or threatened, it feels the same. It doesn’t matter that it’s a kid. Okay? So it’s like, I have, at the very end of their interview, she has kind of, she doesn’t fully break down, but she can’t breathe and is crying. And I think no matter what gender you are, you could have that experience, just because the whole thing is horrific.
Cathy: But [00:25:00] I was feeling her as a therapist, like, this is terrifying. on 80 different levels. And one of the level is I feel threatened. And this is a reality in our culture of being a woman in this, you know, situation. Right. So that’s just a personal experience like where I. That’s kind of the lens I was, I was watching and if you’re watching it, not as a clinician, you still as a human being would be like, Whoa, I
Todd: don’t think I breathed for 50 minutes.
Todd: It was such an intense. Um, and like I said, I didn’t see the first two episodes to kind of set up the third one. But it was, it was, it was a tough watch.
Cathy: Yes, very much so. And so there’s a few things Todd that I wanted to, I think we should go back to the manosphere, like go back and forth because that’s a big part of this, this conversation.
Cathy: But a few things I wanted to tell you about his dad, because you did not see it. His dad is again, blue collar worker, um, married, loves his wife. Um, but a few things that you learn over time is that he has this belief [00:26:00] system that a lot of men do, which is I’m doing it better than my dad did. Okay. Which is, I’ve
Todd: said that to
Cathy: you many times, a million times.
Cathy: Yeah. Like, you know, it’s a, you’ve never said these words, but the emotion that comes through is you should be lucky. You’re lucky. Be thankful
Todd: because
Cathy: I am different than the way my dad showed up to my mom. Correct. Like. You’re getting so much better than my mom ever did, so enjoy, right? And that in itself is a, like, entitlement of I shouldn’t have to, I’m already doing some, so I shouldn’t have to, like, hear.
Cathy: what your needs are or how you’re being affected. Just be happy with what I’m
Todd: getting because it’s better than what was going on 30 years ago.
Cathy: Correct. So there’s some alluding in the, in the other episodes that, that this dad, um, that his dad was his grandpa. Remember she brings up the grandfather a few times that his father was more abusive and that he has learned to not be physically abusive, even though he still has rage.
Cathy: Remember he, he ripped down the shed. He still has rage, but what he has decided to [00:27:00] do is be. What, you know, and I’d say a seven on the Enneagram, which means I’m going to be happy all the time. I’m going to take my family and do things. We are not going to talk about feelings. We are going to keep on trucking.
Cathy: We are going to, you know, let’s just move through this. And so What his son has seen is that emotions are not permitted. Welcome. Yeah. Right. So he tells us Other than anger. Other than anger. You know, he rips down, you know, that’s okay. But every other emotion. He tells a story about how he’s not into sports.
Cathy: His dad is. Jamie is not into sports, the 13 year old boy, his dad is, and then he says that there was a period of time where his dad, he was going to this football thing and his dad would watch him play, and when Jamie would mess up, which he did quite a bit, his dad would look away, ashamed. Jamie tells her this story, and the therapist this story, and the therapist does, she says how does that make you feel?
Cathy: And his first thought is Tell me that’s not true. He goes, tell me he wasn’t [00:28:00] ashamed. Why aren’t you telling me that? Which, she’s a therapist, so she’s like, well, that’s not what I’m interested in. I’m not interested in making you feel better. I’m interested in finding out why you feel he’s ashamed. But he, this 13 year old boy doesn’t get that.
Cathy: He wants to be told What you’re feeling isn’t real. He wants someone else to do that emotional work for him. Yeah, okay The reason I’m bringing up that is that another part of the series is you watch the mom Do all the emotional work for the dad He he’s having a hard time crying. He’s have a hard time sharing.
Cathy: She has to sit down and make his emotions Priority nobody is taking care of her Okay, she has to do her daughter, she has to help her son, and she has to help her husband release his emotions, and talk about them, and make them okay, and help him verbalize, and, and say what they are, and so What I want to get to here, this is not going to [00:29:00] be a, so women are better.
Cathy: I want us to see the cycle of abuse. Okay. Where a woman in this situation is helping her son, daughter, and husband show emotion, share emotion. Become more real, become more healthy, and then the cycle of a man feeling uncomfortable in that, blaming women for feminism, and saying women are weaker.
Todd: Yeah, well it’s so interesting.
Todd: Do
Cathy: you see like how that goes in a
Todd: circle? Well last night, our daughter got home from a trip over the weekend, full of stories. Oh, she had so many stories. Full of stories. Very excited, very happy, and just excited to share. And you and I sat there, and I listened and you listened. The way you listened was super engaged.
Todd: And I, like I said, she was coming up, she had so much energy. The story is like, I thought she had a Celsius. She was
Cathy: walking back and forth.
Todd: I had a hard time, [00:30:00] um. You know, she, she just wanted to get her weekend out with us in a really kind of healthy way. And I listened very, I’m going to say it stoically, like there wasn’t a lot of engagement.
Todd: So I’m not saying, so even in our marriage, in our family last night, you did that for us. So like when you like kind of did that circle halfway, that was us last night. Now the other part is like, this is not a weakness. This is a strength. Like I think of that as a strength. And if you weren’t there, I would have showed up a little bit.
Todd: little bit differently and be more engaged, but because you were so engaged, I knew that you had our back and I was able to just, um, listen and not have to work as hard, quite honestly.
Cathy: And I said to Todd when she, cause she would be done and then she’d go upstairs and come back and tell us more. And when she went upstairs, I looked at him, I said, just so you know, that’s.
Cathy: That’s how girls and women share. A lot of the time is we give someone the floor and they share just a ton of [00:31:00] information. We ask a ton of questions. And I said, that is not that this is brand new to you. I mean, we have adult children, like you’ve watched women and girls do this. Um, But I said to you, I’ve said, I said, I wanted to say to you before she started, please don’t yawn or do something to show that you’re like done with this conversation.
Cathy: Um, I mean, again, you can do whatever you want. It’s not that I’m telling you what to do. I just wanted you to recognize that. Engagement is connection in this situation.
Todd: Totally. And I was engaged. You were. Um, but you were doing more of the work. And so, but what you Well,
Cathy: even like body language wise, because when Todd said that doing more of the work, we were both there listening, but I was leaning on the counter going, Oh my gosh, you’re kidding me.
Cathy: Right. And Todd was laying back in his chair with his arms crossed listening. Now, it’s okay. Like, you’re not a, this is not like Todd’s a jerk, you guys. Like, this is, he’s I am passively listening and I am engaged listening. And that is how women [00:32:00]
Todd: communicate. I was passive listening. I heard every word she said.
Todd: It was being interpreted through my mind, probably not through my body. Whereas I think you were doing engaged listening and it was being interpreted through your mind and your body, I’m guessing. But one thing that was interesting and I hate to kind of get off track, but I talked to my friend Mike yesterday for about a half an hour and we caught up.
Todd: His father had passed away. I told him I was going to check in with him in three weeks. We had a really wonderful conversation. We talked for about a half hour. After that half hour, half hour, I was kind of done. And so is he and now it was, it was FaceTime. So it’s not like we’re in the same room, but like, and we kind of gave each other the bullet points of what was happening in each of our lives.
Todd: And, um, I know that this is just a gross generalization, but that’s kind of how we are like, give me the bullet points. You don’t need to fill me in with the details. And. the way you are with your friends. I don’t want to talk about the way women are, but the way you are with your friends is the devil is in the details.
Todd: It’s all about the details. And I’m just, I’m [00:33:00] not as interested in the details as I think you are.
Cathy: Yeah. And I think in the details are the feelings and in the details are the growth and in the details are the external processing to figure things out. And, and I want to say. that I have a lot of practice in this.
Cathy: I’ve been a girl and woman my whole life. I’m also a therapist, so I listen to people, and I also have three daughters, so this is a very like normal, there’s nothing difficult about that. You don’t have as much experience, and I also think Right, that’s
Todd: the water I swim in is bullet points. I’ve been swimming in the bullet point conversation since I was seven years old.
Cathy: And you know, just to give you, this may not be a perfect analogy, but like, you know, bringing the show back into it, there is, what are you feeling? I’m mad versus what are you feeling? Well, I was embarrassed. Then I felt left out and then I felt like I needed to get my power back. Then I felt like I was really angry and then I was so sad.
Cathy: sad that I was feeling this way. [00:34:00] That’s deep. Yeah. That’s the levels. If men are only going to do bullet points, again, general generalization, everybody, we’re just talking generalization. If men are only going to give bullet points, then there’s no room for all of that. And not only is there no room for the discussion if we’re not open to it, but then we can’t even investigate it.
Cathy: Like her walking around and talking was her Figuring out how she felt about all these different experiences. Now, some of us can do that through journaling. Not everybody’s an external process. Some of it do, you know, we do it through one relationship or a therapist or it doesn’t, nobody has to do this exactly the same.
Cathy: I believe that there’s many different ways. Um, my, the bud is, is that I find there to be something valuable. Okay. So for example, let’s bring it back to the show. This therapist, this female therapist, um, she is asking him these questions that are very deep and he says things like, why don’t you ask me questions like the other guy did?
Cathy: The other guy just asked me basic
Todd: questions. The other guy was doing the bullet point version of what
Cathy: I was [00:35:00] just talking about. And he said, and he was done in an hour and he only needed three sessions, you know? So do the basics. Don’t, and she’s really going
Todd: for it. He was doing the origami puzzle. Yes.
Todd: She’s trying to argue what’s underneath all of these things.
Cathy: Exactly. And, and she would, and she knew like, instead of saying, how do you feel about masculinity? She said, tell me about your dad. And his reaction to that was, you’re going to go after my dad. Don’t go after my dad. Don’t go after my family.
Cathy: That is a lot of information right down there. If you say something, and again, she did go back to, he called her on it and he, she said, okay, well then let me just say, how do you feel about masculinity then? Um, she was allowing him to have a say about how this conversation was going to go. But I feel like, again, generally speaking, or I think what the show is trying to say is the other psychologist didn’t ask any of these questions, he was just trying to check the boxes.
Cathy: Yeah. Okay. So this is the thing is that the cycle that I’m trying to demonstrate and show, okay, let me say this. So [00:36:00] everybody knows that I’m seeing all the pieces, this boy, all the, the girl that he Okay. stabbed. He asked her out because he felt she was a little more easy than other girls. And because she was in
Todd: a weaker social spot because something bad happened to her.
Todd: And yeah, well, people were making fun of her about something new
Cathy: photos that were taken off Snapchat and that people were saying she was flat chested. So she’s not as. Guys didn’t want her as much and so he felt okay. This is a girl in a weakened state Yeah, right. I’m gonna ask her out because she doesn’t have as much social capital.
Todd: Yeah, right.
Cathy: He asked her out. She was like No, thank you. And she was like, I’m
Todd: not that desperate. I’m not that
Cathy: desperate and then On Instagram, she put some emojis under some of his pictures, and some of the emojis were really interesting, which I, some of them I knew about, like, um, the, there’s an exploding pill, and that means red pill, so this is Manosphere stuff, um, there was [00:37:00] something, I can’t remember, there was some other symbol that was indicative of the 80 20, which is, you know, the, what we already talked about, and other, other emojis that she was putting down to say, You’re not as great as you think you are.
Cathy: Tearing this kid apart. Tearing him apart internally. Now I’m saying that because it’s not like she was doing 100 percent right things all the time. No, she was being mean. She was being mean to him. But here’s the problem, and I think everybody knows this, but I’m going to say it. That doesn’t give you the right to hurt her or kill her.
Cathy: And that was one of the questions that the therapist was saying is like, do you understand what dead means? Yeah. Like, yes, she hurt you. She, that’s cyber bullying. She was cyber bullying this, you know, this boy because he asked her out and she was making fun of him or whatever. And he just plummeted into a pool of shame.
Cathy: Exactly. A pool of shame. And, and what. Out of everything he was reading and everything he was seeing in the Manosphere, the belief system becomes, I’m entitled to this. You are in a weak [00:38:00] position. I should be able to get what I want, because the dark side of the 80 20 is the sentence we haven’t said yet, is because, you know, 80 percent of the women only want 20 percent of the men, the other men have to go out and get what they need.
Cathy: Okay? So the belief is, if they’re not going to choose us, We’re gonna take it. Mm hmm. Okay, so you understand how this gets really messy. Yeah, and really scary and and that’s why like these binary conclusions about Like there’s all these things going in a circle of, you know, men are believing this and trying this and trying to connect and then girls are pushing them back for maybe an experience they had or to find their own power or to, you know, it’s different for every person.
Cathy: And then that engages in them the belief that they are entitled to something and you don’t get to do that to me, which is another thing that happened in that room with the female therapist is he comes [00:39:00] after her. And says, you don’t get to do this. You don’t get to have power over me. Who do you think you are?
Cathy: You think you’re some queen. So there’s all sorts of internal sexism, internal misogyny in this boy that he has learned starting with, I can’t show my emotion in his own family because my dad wasn’t an awful person, but he didn’t show me. That I could do that. I wasn’t able to talk about it.
Todd: Yeah, and it’s hurt people, hurt people.
Todd: This kid was taught something that was untrue and he’s gonna take that hurt and turn it outward. And he did that with this fictitious character, uh, who he killed. And with this therapist that he’s, he’s gonna take that power back.
Cathy: He believes. And has been told and the manosphere is telling him that he is the superior species, the superior gender, and that if you are not chosen, you, that’s not okay.
Cathy: You know, just, there’s been a lot of mass killings in our country that have [00:40:00] been around this belief system that I have been shunned by girls, girls haven’t chosen me, and therefore I have the right to go do what I’m about to do. Well,
Todd: for me, you’ve been using the word adapt lately when talking about, you know, how sometimes it’s hard being a man, it’s hard being a woman, it’s hard being a boy, it’s hard being a girl, but what we all need to do is adapt.
Todd: And what that means to me is like resilience. Like, yeah, this girl rejected you. This girl made fun of you. How are you going to respond to that? And I don’t know how to do it, but what we want to. It put in our kids is be resilient and adjust and adapt and figure out how to do it. And like with, in this specific thing, I’d be like his, what adaptation or resilience means is feel the feelings of how it feels to be made fun of on social media and get sad and, and, and talk to a buddy of yours about how sad you are because, but instead it’s [00:41:00] like this little fire that gets started in somebody’s chest.
Todd: And it. And
Cathy: there’s already, let’s go back even a step from him being rejected. There’s already sexism baked in here that we haven’t even discussed. There’s a lot of parts of this that he thinks are just normal, which are this girl had her nudes of her chest shared by a friend of his. There was a, he had a friend who asked her for nudes.
Cathy: She sent them, then he started sharing them with other people and he was mad at his buddy for sharing them. Cause he’s like, don’t share them or else no one else is going to send you nudes. Like he sees that as normal, like dummy, you know, quit sharing them right now because get more nudes from girls. And then he’s like, she was, the language was very British based, but basically he was saying that, you know, she was weaker status.
Cathy: She had a flat chest, everybody knew it. So. So he’s like upset about being shamed, but he’s shaming her before he [00:42:00] even asks her out. Like again, cycle, like we’re sitting, you know, cause I wanted to say, I wanted to go right in the middle and say she was putting cruel things on his Instagram. But before that even happened, he was saying cruel things about her and looking at Snapchat.
Todd: He had her, she had, there was a cause of why she was firing back at him.
Cathy: Correct. So cycle, cycle, cycle. And, and this is the problem is that this is, you know, I see this in the conversations I’m having with so many men in my life right now about. This issue is that I, who I am at this point in my life is someone who speaks about women and girls.
Cathy: I want you to see the history of oppression. I want you to see the experiences that women have that you may not know. I want you to understand the pressure that girls are under because of social media, because of society, because of what our culture tells girls to be. And I need you to see that first to then understand now, here’s what we need to do to work with boys.[00:43:00]
Cathy: It’s not about which one is more important. You and I have had many shows about this. We based the conference on this. It’s not about, we can only talk about girls or we can only talk about boys, but I feel like there is some homework or that’s the wrong word. Some maybe educational work that men need to do to understand women’s experiences because something like getting nudes from them and dehumanizing them is normal.
Cathy: That’s been normalized. I don’t care who you are. I just want to look at your nude pic.
Yeah.
Cathy: Right. And then when that girl. It’s like, I don’t want to go out with you because you’ve been looking at nude pics of me. The boy is like, well, I’m entitled, you’re, you’re lesser of me. Entitlement is a big word.
Cathy: Exactly. So I’m using just this one story to tell this very big story about our society. Many people have
Todd: to endure.
Cathy: Exactly. And so it’s seeing all the pieces and, and I, you know, the thing that I’ve been using a lot and we might, we talked about on the show, we use the Meryl Streep quote [00:44:00] about it. Women dream and think and engage in male behavior.
Todd: Did we play
Cathy: that last time? I think we did. Okay. I won’t
Todd: play it again. If
Cathy: you can find it, I’m fine with you playing it again. But I was, I just had lunch with one of my girlfriends yesterday and we were, she was talking about a conversation she had with her dad and she said, well, you know, I first had to do the thing where I engaged his ego and made him feel good about things, right?
Cathy: Women know we have to do that a lot of the time. Are you ready? Yeah, go ahead.
have learned the language of men, have lived in the house of men. You know how when you learn language, you learn French, you learn Spanish. It isn’t your language until you dream in it. And the only way to dream in it is to speak it.
And women speak men, but men don’t speak women. They don’t dream in it. I think what Merrill’s trying to
Cathy: say, you know, [00:45:00] in, and this is an important part of this conversation. If everybody understood that piece because of history, because of, you know, the dominance of men throughout culture, because of patriarchy, women have learned to speak men and men, I think.
Cathy: in the healthiest forms of relationship and in parenting are learning how to speak women and grow. And what does that mean? It’s understanding that just because something doesn’t hurt you, doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt us. Something, you know, you approaching me with something, you know, in a way where I can hear it versus.
Cathy: You’re listening to Skylar and understanding that that conversation that she’s sharing with you is meaningful. Well,
Todd: I have plenty of opportunities. Um, I have a sister. I had a mom. I have a wife, I have three daughters, I have a great grandmother that raised me. So You are so surrounded by women. Oh yeah.
Todd: You
Cathy: have always
Todd: been. Yes. We had a lot of strong [00:46:00] women. Um, some who have since passed, some who are still around. Uh, but it reminds me of one of the chapters of one of your early books, maybe your first book, I don’t know. Uh, it was about how important it was for you to have male friends.
Cathy: Yes. I’ve always had male friends.
Todd: And not boyfriends, nothing romantic, but just guy friends. And, um, I think that that’s kind of a lost. Maybe it’s always been like that, but most of the time the girls are on one side, the boys are on the other. And it’s super important. And, you know, of course I have female friends. Most of them are either through you or through work, or I don’t have many female friends that are not connected in any other way.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: Um, and that’s, you know, it’s, I don’t know. It’s weird.
Cathy: Yeah. And, and, and it is, it’s interesting. It comes up in the show Adolescence. She asks him, does your dad have any friends who are women? And he says, no, that’s weird.
Todd: Yeah. You know, and because it is, it’s different, [00:47:00] it’s non typical. So it’s weird in the sense that it’s non typical.
Todd: If I interviewed 20 of my buddies, how many female friends do you have that is not connected through work or your life partner? And I think the number would be very small.
Cathy: Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s, there’s maybe where you grow up. It’s cultural. I don’t know. Like you went to an all boys school, so I think it was a little harder.
Cathy: Um, because when I grew up, it was half and half, half of my best friends were boys and the other half were girls. And sometimes there was romantic entanglements with these boys. Like it wasn’t always platonic, but for the most part, by the time you’re like a senior, you’ve grown through all those stages and then these are your best friends.
Cathy: Right. And so like when I look at pictures from high school, It’s half boys, half girls. That’s how it always was. And I still have those guy friends and um, and you know, and then my new guy friends, a lot of them are, like you said, from you, you know, guys, your friends, um, you know, we always fight about two of your best friends.
Cathy: I met [00:48:00] first or Sean agrees that he met you first. He said, you, Sean said you win that battle, but I met Frank first, who is now one of your best friends. So a lot of these men, you know, were introduced from me. And then a lot of my, um, My best friend’s partners who are male. I love them very much, you know, so that’s grown But women I think a lot of that friendship is because we know how to speak Can
Todd: you think of any male friends not from high school that you have right now not connected through me or work?
Cathy: Um, let’s see, from college, a lot of them are now, it’s, it’s a little messy because a lot of them are from your fraternity and I knew them before you.
Todd: Yeah. And I’m, I’m even taking as an adult post college, post college, it doesn’t happen and it’s probably because we’re so busy with our kids and everything else.
Todd: Like I don’t have time for my own existing friends, much less go make up new friends of the opposite gender. It’s just, it’s really [00:49:00] hard to do.
Cathy: Yeah. It doesn’t. self well. Um, I’d say like, I can think of a lot of guy friends, but to your point, they are the partners of my, of my girlfriends. Um, and some, and they’re still friends from college.
Cathy: So, you know, like it’s, it’s a little bit different, but it’s been, um, Yeah, I mean, what can we say? I, I think that, and then she asked this boy, do you have any friends who are girls? And he’s like, no, my mates are my mates. So if nothing else, ask your
Todd: kid, like,
Cathy: Hey,
Todd: do you like normalize that? Like, Hey, it’d be great if you had a bunch of good buddies.
Todd: I’m talking to a, uh, to a boy. And if you had some other female friends, you know, at school and, you know, I’m thinking about high school right now, she’s on the speech team. So there’s boys and girls everywhere. Right. All the time. Yeah. So anyways, um, so we’re 50 minutes in what, what else did you want to make sure that we talked about?
Cathy: I think I just wanted to talk about, Oh, let’s see, I’m just kind of going through the things that I wrote [00:50:00] down. Um, I think I would, since we’re ending, I’ll just say this, like this show. The things that Todd and I are talking about and the show, I’m not suggesting you watch it because I want it to scare you and you be worried about it.
Cathy: I think it’s more about, let’s be clear about what our sons are seeing and experiencing. Let’s be clear with our daughters about the things that they are saying and doing when it comes to their experiences with boys and men. Um, I think it’s more common though, to talk to girls and young women about their experiences with men because they are often, um, they have to be protective of themselves.
Cathy: There’s a power difference and there’s a lot more conversation about how are you keeping yourself safe. You know, what are you paying attention to? Are you with a group? You know, there’s a lot of focus on women’s safety. And I think when it comes to boys safety, it’s more [00:51:00] about the conversations with them and about talking to them about what they’re seeing online, because what they’re being exposed to in the manosphere right now is a.
Cathy: A domineering, patriarchal, often violent version of what it means to be male.
Todd: Well, and what’s interesting is I can see a lot of moms and dads listening to this podcast like, well, my son’s sweet. He’s not part of the manosphere. True. Probably true. But he’s probably getting, um, Bro culture, which is kind of a, like if you’re doing a pyramid, yeah,
Cathy: it’s kind of, it’s
Todd: not probably something there.
Todd: So it’s not always about the worst case scenario. There’s all these foundational pieces that we can have conversations with our children about of saying, don’t let it get to this point by talking about the thing that’s below in that pyramid.
Cathy: Yeah. Like, you know, so what are we talking about specifically?
Cathy: Making, talking about emotions in your home. I know a lot of people who listen to this podcast do this with their sons and daughters already, you know, making sure there’s an understanding of the, the many different [00:52:00] ways of talking about feelings. There’s so many words to describe it. There’s so many expressions to have crying, laughing, you know, sobbing, you know, um, laughter, like, The ability to express feelings because the lack of expression is what makes people explode.
Cathy: It’s like, not only do you have to name what you’re feeling, but you have to be able to express it, talk about it, have someone hear you, have someone value you. The other thing is talking to them about what they’re seeing. There’s a difference in being involved in something where you’re actually a participant in the manosphere and being exposed to and being, cause that’s like what I, What my whole book, restoring our girls is about is here’s what your girls are being exposed to.
Cathy: So we can’t go out in culture and scrub the internet and take all that away. But we can talk to our girls about what they’re seeing. What are your boys seeing and what do they think about it? We talked about this a ton at the conference. How do they experience someone like Jordan Peterson or Andrew Tate or Joe Rogan or, you know, [00:53:00] Um, you know, how do, do they think that’s what they want to be?
Cathy: Do they find that to be powerful? Do they find, are they, do, and then if they do find those men to be powerful or role models, why? What
Todd: experiences have led you to that? And maybe it’s a conversation about, cause most kids know who Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan and Andrew Tate are. Maybe you have a conversation with the differences between these two.
Todd: Cause I remember from the conference Duffy talked about. You know, Rogan says some controversial stuff and he also has some really good interviews. So the minute, if you’re a mom or a dad out there and you start demonizing some of these people that most young men follow, you’re going to separate yourself from him.
Todd: So instead, like, tell me, what is it about Rogan that you like? What interviews do you like? Let me listen to some of them instead of being like, this guy’s awful. Why, why do you listen to it? What’s wrong with you?
Cathy: Yeah. So like, you know, what Duffy always says is listen to these things that your kids are listening to and go, Oh, did you detect that misogyny right there?
Cathy: You don’t have to throw it all away. You [00:54:00] notice it, you recognize it, you pay attention to it. You don’t like, you know, I’m going to go back to girls. Like with girls. I’m not like, don’t. Shop for makeup and don’t worry about fashion and don’t care about how you look. That’s ridiculous We live in a culture where all those things have been told to our girls that they’re important and especially in these years These teenage years where they’re trying to blend in with their peers.
Cathy: You can’t say to them Don’t worry about fashion like they care So instead point out the aspects that are most important talk to them about what they actually need rather than having to go spend 300 at Sephora to prove that they have all the you know, the tools that they need like Talk to them about what real skincare is like it’s an opportunity not to shut the door on these things and say they don’t exist because that’s denial.
Cathy: It’s let’s talk about what you’re experiencing and what you’re seeing and pointing out how it’s harmful and pointing out what really a leader is like, you know, talking about what empathy is talking about relationship because the most important [00:55:00] part of this. Episode. And I, I, I want to, I don’t want to ruin this for any, no, this won’t ruin it.
Cathy: All this kid wants to know from this therapist is, do you like me?
Todd: Yeah. Cause he doesn’t like himself. He needs to externalize validation from somebody else. And this woman is part of that puzzle piece.
Cathy: Boys want to know, do you like me? Which means,
Todd: am I valuable? Am I worthy?
Cathy: Your sons need to hear that they’re more than their sport or whatever they’re in or their grades.
Cathy: They need to know that they are important because they just are. They just are a in your life and you love them for whatever they’re into and what they’re interested in. Yeah, and same goes for girls, but I’m really focusing on boys because that was the most heartbreaking. There was 80 Million heartbreaking parts, but when he says to her do you like me because he doesn’t I’m just repeating what Todd said He doesn’t like himself and he [00:56:00] thinks he’s ugly and he thinks he’s not worth anything.
Cathy: And
Todd: by the way, he’s a cute little kid, too
Cathy: He’s
Todd: adorable totally adorable and
Cathy: and the and the the manosphere then takes that hatred that he has, and instead of him dealing with it and questioning that and having someone tell him that’s not true, he turns it outward onto women and girls. And so the thing about.
Cathy: The thing, you know, bringing this full cycle, the reason Todd and I talk about these things all the time, and I invest a lot of my time and energy in talking about men and boys alongside girls and women, is that girls and women often get the brunt of the male rage. We are killed. Or threatened or raped or, or whatever it may be when men are not attending to their own pain.
Cathy: So there’s this push and pull. And yes, people will say, well, sometimes women push men or sometimes women say things to men. Yeah, this is a cycle. Remember, I’m not saying it’s [00:57:00] all one way. But the reality is when you look at the stats and the data, which I know everybody, you know, needs to see. Who’s getting killed?
Cathy: Who? I saw a, a post the other day and I, and again, this is a very general thing, but it made me go, whoa, where a guy wrote on this woman’s page. If you, you know, you hate men. And if men weren’t here, then you would have no one to protect you. And she wrote from whom? Because if the men weren’t here, it’s funny.
Cathy: And, and that doesn’t mean I agree with that. I just want you to see that. That men can be protectors, and they’re also hurting us.
Todd: Well, and, um, because I’ve said that, you know, um, um, spousal, uh, murder is, a woman is most likely to be married by her spouse, then by a stranger on the street. Correct. And I said that, and certain guys are like, male on male crime is so much worse than male on female crime, which is probably true, but [00:58:00] what’s the common denominator?
Todd: Male. Male. So, anyways.
Cathy: And, and what, and, and is that true? Male, and what does that even mean? Male on male crime is worse because women aren’t as important?
Todd: Statistically speaking, more men kill men than men kill women. I mean, that’s
Cathy: And, and it’s a weird stat, because if I look at women who have been murdered, 90, 90, I don’t know the stat, so I don’t want to make it up, but it’s somewhere around 90 percent are killed by men.
Cathy: Of course. So it’s like, what, there is no worse. There is only, these people are dying at the hands of men, these people are dying at the hands of men. Right. And so, it is a, you know, Todd and I, We try our best to have these very difficult conversations about how to see every side of this equation and to not point a finger at one thing, which is what this show, why I think it’s so powerful.
Cathy: There is not one reason why this boy did what he did. There are a hundred reasons. That’s right. [00:59:00]
Todd: Catch it before it gets bad.
Cathy: And a lot of it, there’s, you know, the episode about the school, there’s so many other pieces to this. So I, if you, if you have it in you. I say go watch it, um, and, uh, we’d love to hear what you think about it.
Todd: That’s right. Send me an email. Todd at Zen Parenting Radio dot com or Kathy at Zen Parenting Radio dot com. Uh, Fatherhood Full House on Thursday, uh, we’ve got an advance in September. What’s a thing that you promote at the beginning of the show?
Cathy: Uh, it’s a, Growing Our Girls is hosting a conversation about restoring our girls.
Todd: And speaking of restoring our girls. Right here. Yeah. Sweetie’s awesome book. Go get it. How real conversations shape our daughters lives, help them with teen challenges, and remind them that they matter. I want to thank Jeremy Craft. He’s a bald headed beauty. He paints and remodels throughout the Chicagoland area.
Todd: It’s number 630 956 1800. Tell him Todd and Kathy sent you. Keep trucking, everybody.
Round two. [01:00:00] Change a little bit. And change a little bit. Pretty pleasant.
