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Todd: Hey, everybody, big things ahead. Don’t worry, we’re not going anywhere. For the past 15 years, Zen Parenting Radio has brought you thoughtful conversations about mindfulness, parenting, compassion, and self-awareness, and a bit of pop culture too. Well, we’re ready to modernize.
Cathy: We’ll be exploring the same themes, but from a new direction.
Cathy: As Gen Xers who grew up with pop culture and are now raising kids in it, we’ve always known that pop culture plays a big role in our relationships and family culture, and it’s been a touchstone, a conversation starter, and a way we’ve stayed connected and made sense of the world. Starting June 1st, you’ll hear us talk more about the shows and music we grew up with and what’s new now, and how it all reflects our societal values, our blind spots, our potential for growth, and the ways we connect with our children and each other.
Cathy: We’ll still be diving into mindfulness. Parenting, [00:01:00] compassion and self-awareness, but pop culture will be our main entry point.
Todd: For example, you might be interested in how MTV shaped our beliefs in parenting, why George Michael’s father figure has somehow stayed relevant and even interesting to our kids, and how the E True Hollywood story on Robert Downey Jr.
Todd: Remind us what addiction looked like long before he became our kid’s hero as Ironman. We’re also making the shift because we believe, especially right now, we all need more reminders of our connection, A bit of optimism and humor, and a historical pop cultural lens to help us remember that we’re still in this together and that we’re gonna be okay.
Cathy: It’s a small shift that means a lot to us. We know that pop culture is a mirror, and when we look at it with curiosity and honesty, we find deeper insight into who we are, what we care about, and how we wanna show up in the world. So stay tuned. The title and topics will be new and exciting, and the heart of the show will stay the same, but we think you’ll notice a renewed enthusiasm and joy.
Cathy: It’s a more modern and genuine [00:02:00] approach that reflects who we are today. So get ready for then. Pop parenting. There’s so much more to come.
Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd. This is Kathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is episode number 816. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s wellbeing is a parent’s self understanding.
Todd: I only get to say that one more time, sweetie. Next week.
Cathy: Right. But you can say it. No, I mean, not that whole lead in, but you’re gonna say, I, I don’t want people to think we’re like going away,
Todd: but we, we gotta make space for the new to come in and we gotta let go of some of the old
Cathy: Yes. Well, we’re gonna have a new intro.
Todd: Yes.
Cathy: And new words, but you know, the best predictor of a child’s wellbeing is a parent’s self understanding will always be the heart. And uh, [00:03:00] it’s just gonna get more fun from here.
Todd: It is gonna get more fun. Um, so on today’s show, Kathy has two sub stacks. One is free, comes out on Friday, one is paid, it comes out one Wednesdays, or is it random?
Cathy: Mm-hmm. I mean, that’s my plan. I, the last two I’ve done have been Wednesday.
Todd: Um, so we’re gonna. Blend both of them and have some fun along the way. Uh, the first one that you wrote, and I’m just gonna mention to what both of ’em is called, what Adds Peace and Fire?
Cathy: Yeah,
Todd: that was the free one. That was free.
Todd: And then the second one, do you remember what you called the second one? Uhuh?
Cathy: Something about what matters? I don’t remember.
Todd: Sweet isn’t remember. I’m gonna tell you exactly what you said. Okay. A word for when it’s all too much.
Cathy: Oh, yeah. Yeah. A word for when it’s all too much.
Todd: Um, so because I
Cathy: found a new word, I like finding new words.
Todd: Yeah. And we’ll say what that new word is here in a little bit.
Cathy: Especially when the word explains a nameless thing, like a word is describes something that we don’t have a name for.
Todd: Right. Do
Cathy: you know what I mean?
Todd: Yeah. And [00:04:00] then I think you referenced there’s a guy who wrote a whole book on that.
Cathy: That’s such a great book.
Cathy: I wish I would’ve written that book.
Todd: Do you remember what the name of that book is?
Cathy: Uh, something about nameless names, nameless words. I don’t remember.
Todd: Um, yeah, I, that
Cathy: I’ve written three things since then. Yeah. My brain is, it’s kinda like podcasting when someone’s like, I listened to podcast number seven 20.
Cathy: I’m like, dudes.
Todd: Yeah. I
Cathy: have no idea what that is.
Todd: Sweet. He’s got no idea. We just
Cathy: keep on, we keep on trucking as you would. John Koenig Uhhuh
Todd: the dictionary of obscure sorrows. Oh, it’s a book. So good. It’s an awesome book. That names the nameless things we feel. Um, have you ever, have you bought this book or do you No.
Todd: I just saw it online. Is it like, I wonder if it has like a hundred or like a thousand in there. I
Cathy: don’t know. But it’s really good. Like when I say I saw it online, I saw a bunch of the words and all of ’em deserve a substack, you know, article. Yeah. But that was just the word that, you know, came to me that day.
Cathy: ’cause I wanted to use it when I was talking to my daughter.
Todd: Yeah. Um, so let’s, let’s break down the first one. Okay. Which is [00:05:00] what adds peace and fire.
Cathy: Mm-hmm.
Todd: Um, what was the inspiration and what is it that you were trying to communicate to your readers about adding peace and fire?
Cathy: Well, I heard somebody say that they read books that either add peace or fire to their heart, which is a very lovely way to describe why you would choose a book, why you read a book.
Cathy: And I just thought about it for a days. I was like, oh, that’s so cool. And part of the reason that I thought it was really a great way to describe how to choose books or anything for that matter, how to choose. Your work, how to choose the music you love, how to choose the TV show you wanna watch. Like it’s not just for books, but was because it was a complete somatic experience.
Cathy: So it wasn’t someone who like read what the best book was or figured out, um, you know, through data what the, what the best song should be or whatever. It was a completely feeling experience of like, if something makes me feel peace in my heart, if I feel peace, or if I feel fire, [00:06:00] which I don’t know what fire means for you, but to me it’s like, it could be anger, um, a sense of wanting justice.
Cathy: It could be, um, a sense of drive or, um, like pa you know, like passion. Like you get really worked up about something and. You know, so I just kind of wrote about what is it for us that, you know, creates the, the passion, or I should say the peace and the fire in
Todd: our hearts. So we’re gonna talk about that substack first.
Todd: Okay. But just to, just to kind of give the listeners an idea, um, we’re gonna talk about the somatic awareness, which is what you just talked about, Uhhuh, and blend it with the emotional spaciousness that you talk about in the second one. Okay. Okay, great. Um, but I just wanna read a paragraph from your substack and have you just kind of riff on it.
Todd: Okay. Okay. I love how this phrase bypasses thinking entirely and goes straight to the body. I. It’s not about what makes sense or sounds impressive. It’s fully [00:07:00] somatic fo focusing entirely on what we feel the tightness in the chest when something doesn’t sit right versus the ease when something feels true, the numbness or the apathy versus the heat from anger or a need for justice instead of chasing what sounds smart or what others people think is good.
Todd: We go back to what the body. Already knows. I love that. And the reason I love it is because, um, I’m gonna speak to all the people that reside in their head more often than they reside in their body and their feelings. And I raise my hand as one of those people. And as I’ve shared so many times in the show, I’m leaning into that feeling state and to that heart-centered state, uh, into the body sensation versus what is it that I’m thinking?
Todd: What is it? Ki Guard who said, I think therefore I am. I don’t know who said that, but just that idea, right, of like, yeah, that makes sense. Whatever I’m thinking is who I am.
Cathy: Which, that was always taken outta context though. Oh,
Todd: it
Cathy: was? Yeah. Like what do you think you meant? It was more said,
Todd: oh,
Cathy: like that, [00:08:00] but keep going.
Cathy: ’cause you’re, you’re pointing clear. So
Todd: anyways, I just, so that’s why I love this, uh, writing that you did. ’cause it reminded me of something that I’m continuing to work towards. The, the challenge though is. I sometimes try to get there by thinking more and instead of getting my head out of the way and then just feeling what it says, whatever it is my body’s saying to me.
Todd: So, um, I don’t know if we wanna go over some of the things that, so the listeners can come up with their own examples of what peace in the chest feels like today. ’cause you have a whole. S uh, set of bullet points here that kind of brings you peace.
Cathy: Yes, I do. And before you read those Sure. Uh, I think therefore I am, um, a philosophical statement by Renee Descartes.
Todd: Oh, Descarte. Yeah.
Cathy: And it means the very act of thinking proves a person’s existence. Um, he uses as a starting point for his philosophical inquiry, suggesting that even if everything else could be doubted, the act of thinking itself demonstrates the [00:09:00] existence of a thinking entity. Do you
Todd: think he would’ve agreed if.
Todd: I if the phrase were, I feel therefore I am.
Cathy: Maybe I don’t know enough about him to like say what his, but I don’t think he was saying, thinking is the only thing. I think he was pointing to thinking as the ability for us to think for ourselves indicates, uh, a separate being.
Todd: Yeah. So, so anyway, so what were some of the things that you put on your list of things that bring you peace?
Todd: Let
Cathy: me see if I can remember them. I think the first one was rabbit.
Todd: Yes.
Cathy: Um, I think that, um, why
Todd: do rabbits bring peace in your chest?
Cathy: Uh, because I love rabbits and they’re so sweet and they’re also, um, very independent and they also are very soft and cute and, um, I’ve just love rabbits. We’re just, I’m saying we, but we’re rabbit people.
Cathy: Sure. If you’re a rabbit person. Then, you know what that means? Yeah.
Todd: We’re we’re brothers and sisters with you.
Cathy: Yeah, we are rabbit people. Um, what else? Let’s see. I think did, I was just writing something else about the things I do to help calm down. So I’m [00:10:00] gonna mix these things up, but, um, you know, things that bring me peace, you know, drinking water, taking walks, uh, listening to music.
Cathy: Um, give me one so I can think of my list.
Todd: I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna read a few of them. Yeah. Read a
Cathy: few of ’em because, and you just, and see if I can continue and you.
Todd: You know, give a sentence or something. Sure. Reading, good writing.
Cathy: Yes. I love, I was reading, I love that sentence. ’cause that doesn’t sound like a well-written sentence.
Todd: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: So it was paradoxical reading, good writing,
Todd: uh, people who are inspirational and optimistic. Yes.
Cathy: Wow. That’s just a, that’s a given. I search. Um, I used to search threads. And now I tend to not search threads as much and I search substack for good writers who are very inspirational and optimistic because I need that right now.
Todd: Sitting outside. Yes, of course. People you love.
Cathy: Yeah. That’s you. Uh, and the girls and my family and my friends, I.
Todd: And your rabbit.
Cathy: And my rabbit, except my rabbit
Todd: passed away. Rip, rip, smokey. Yes. Uh, driving the Jeep with the music Up.
Cathy: Yes. The Jeep, of course. The [00:11:00] Jeep is my, um, one of my safe spaces.
Todd: Uh, yes it is.
Todd: And it, the Jeep is a good technique to bring our daughters from a place of dysregulation into regulation. It is. Do you wanna share more about that? And I, I wanna just like set this up because sometimes our kids are having crappy days, right? Uhhuh. Sometimes it requires movement. It sometimes requires a change in environment.
Todd: And when one of, when, when our daughters are sometimes like just really stuck, we say, do you want to go take a Jeep ride and go get some ice cream?
Cathy: Yeah. Or just drive around. Or just drive around or go. So, yeah. And you know, the thing is, is it sounds. Kind of privilege. ’cause you, you know, can’t go just grab a Jeep, you know, this is something I’ve wanted my whole life.
Cathy: Um, well
Todd: the idea is for people to hear your examples Yes. And come up with their own.
Cathy: Their own. Right. Yeah. Good point. So, um, I like to be outside. I like the, I, I like driving around with, without. A roof. I used to like convertible [00:12:00] cars and now I like a jeep. ’cause you know what, a jeep is higher up too because it’s, it feels more sturdy.
Cathy: I
Todd: learned that the hard way, sweetie. What do you mean? Well, when I didn’t have the, the soft top retracted all the way back, I drove into the garage top bust realizing top. Yeah. So it was rough. He,
Cathy: he had done it
Todd: before. So the second talk about beating yourself up, I did a great job of beating myself up.
Todd: Aw. It
Cathy: was so sad. I knew in the moment I’m like, Todd, it’s gonna. Like be really upset about this. So anyway, so there’s something about driving around with the air, you know what I mean? You’re like outside, but driving around. Duh. And then there’s one of the things in the car, like I didn’t need nice seats.
Cathy: I didn’t need a lot of niceties in the car. The one thing I really wanted though, was a really good sound system. Yeah, you wanna get music. ’cause listening to music was really essential. So I have a really good sound system so you can listen to music and be outside. And to Todd’s point. Not only do I use it for myself for regulation, but a lot of times when I feel like the girls are really stuck, I’m like, let’s go for a drive and, you know, fresh air, a good [00:13:00] song.
Cathy: Mm-hmm. You know, go pick up a iced tea or, or a ice cream or something. It’s just gets you outta your head.
Todd: A few other things that you shared, and I’m going to share a few of mine. Okay. Even though I haven’t thought much about it. Text, texting, funny memes. I love memes. Uh, brunches with your own pot of coffee on the table,
Cathy: dude.
Cathy: If, have you ever go, well, I know you do. I’m talking to the listeners when you go to like a coffee pla or a coffee place or a brunch place, breakfast place, and then they bring you coffee and then they leave a little coffee pot for you. I mean. That’s one of my favorite things.
Todd: I can understand why, but I don’t experience that.
Todd: ’cause I’m not a coffee person, but, right. One of the, so one thing that inspired me to give mine was your last one, which was lilac trees. We planted these lilac trees in our backyard and, uh, a summer ago and they, last year they just have finally, I think, I don’t remember these suckers blooming the way Didn’t they?
Todd: Did, they didn’t.
Cathy: I think we got them when they had already turned leafy.
Todd: Yeah. So, um, every time I walk by that area of the [00:14:00] backyard, it just brings me. Joy and peace. Um, speaking of the backyard, uh, about at five o’clock in the afternoon, every day there’s this bright red cardinal that sits atop of the telephone pool pole, which is right in our backyard.
Todd: Same spot. Same spot. And he just sings. That’s great. And he’s like, look, he’s always looking. To the west, which is towards the sunset. Mm. And there’s something just very harmonious and beautiful about that. And that brings me some lightness in the chest. And then last one, um, and you probably will make fun of me for this one.
Todd: Sure. But at the end of the day, if I’ve had a really productive day, I love that. Like, there’s nothing that makes me feel better than having a productive day.
Cathy: I, I’m not gonna make fun of you for that. Everybody likes to be
Todd: productive. Well, but this is sometimes a little bit of tension between you and I. I.
Cathy: Appreciate. I think your version of being productive is different than mine.
Mm-hmm.
Cathy: That I don’t think if there’s anything wrong with [00:15:00] being productive, we’re alive. Why not go do those things? I think that what. I appreciate is also going out and pulling weeds and mowing the lawn and going in, you know, maybe chopping up strawberries so everybody has them.
Cathy: I find things for other people to be productive as well, and I think you are very computer focused. Mm-hmm. Of how many emails can I get out, how much work can I get done? And my definition of productivity, I think is a little broader. Reading a book is productive to me. Sure. Um, taking a walk. You like to walk, but it’s, and it’s not like you have to, I like
Todd: to walk with you when you have, when you have two good legs.
Cathy: Yeah. I’ve had some pain in my leg lately, but I, I think, do you feel the difference between, because I think your version of productive is like, I’m on my computer, I’m checking off
Todd: email. Well, even yesterday, yesterday was kind of a down day for us. It was Sunday, which is the Sabbath, which means we could do whatever we want and, um.
Todd: I watched all three of our daughter’s cars and when I say I washed [00:16:00] them,
Cathy: that’s a good example. That’s a different kind of productivity. Yeah.
Todd: But that makes me feel good for sure. Instead of watching the PGA, which was horrible by the way, ’cause Scotty Shuffler just kind of ran away with it. Um, I, I didn’t wash them.
Todd: Let me be honest. It, there’s a buy two get one for free deal at the car wash.
Cathy: We’ve talked about the car wash. ’cause I wrote a. A substack about it. Remember? That’s great. You did the chaos of the car wash. I don’t, I get nervous. Can I say something else? So can we focus on that for a second? ’cause I think this is a good conversation.
Cathy: Sure. Between you and I and everybody else can listen, is that I think, you know, when I was talking about people who are inspirational. I felt good yesterday ’cause my oldest daughter’s home for a few days. My daughter jc, who just graduated from college and she went and sat outside with her book and started reading and I’m like, I’m gonna go sit outside with my book and start reading.
Cathy: And that feels really good. Where it’s like someone’s drawing me out of this like world of constant
Todd: productivity work.
Cathy: And you, um, have, you are 99% all the [00:17:00] good things. There’s nothing that I wanna like. Take away from you, but you do not inspire me to do stuff like that. Heck no. You are. If I wanna slow down and do something different, you’re like on your computer constantly.
Cathy: So I liked having someone in the house who’s like, I’m gonna do something different. What? Because then I feel more comfortable doing that.
Todd: One of these days, sweetie, I’ll start reading.
Cathy: Well reading or just if you were like walking around, I mean, I’m making this up ’cause you don’t really have to do this thing, but like walking around the yard, like picking up weeds or I’m gonna like fix this thing in the shed today.
Cathy: And that you’re actually doing something that’s like that.
Todd: Has nothing to do with my laptop. Correct. I get it. ’cause you’re
Cathy: very computer focused. Yes, I am. So my but my problem is because is I’m very affected by that. And that’s not your fault. Mm-hmm. So it’s like I, because I tend to wanna get things done and be productive, I’m like.
Cathy: If I wanna slow down, I’ve still got this guy in my house who’s sped up. Mm-hmm. So I’m kind of like, it’s [00:18:00] harder to stop. Yeah. Working. I get it. So we have these conversations all the time.
Todd: I’m always seeking for an opportunity to bring some type of pop culture into our podcast. Yeah. As we transition to a different format.
Todd: Yeah. In two short weeks. So
Cathy: excited.
Todd: Um, and I told you over, uh, eating some food together this morning. Yeah. To come up with a song that, uh, makes you think about peace in your chest and then fire in your belly or whatever. Is it fire in your chest too?
Cathy: All in the chest. Okay.
Todd: All in the chest, heart and lungs.
Todd: Um, and this was yours And, and the idea is for the listeners to come up with their own version of it. So, oh, which one is this? This is the one. Which one is it? Peace or fire? You didn’t say this is peace.
Not
Todd: much fire going on here. That’s not true. There’s
passion. True sunshine. Can’t you just feel the moon shining like a friend of mine to hit me from behind?
Todd: Alright, you ready for mine?
No. ’cause I [00:19:00] wanna talk about it.
Todd: Oh, you do? Okay. Don’t
Cathy: you wanna talk about why these things? I was just gonna
Todd: play ’em, but you can talk about it. Go ahead. Yeah.
Cathy: So that is my peaceful song because, um, it reminds me of my dad, but it doesn’t make me sad. It like just is kind of like, it’s a vibe that he had where he liked that kind of music.
Cathy: He loved James Taylor and it was just, and the thing about that I love about that song specifically is that it’s followed me in every stage of my life. So it’s like my dad liked it before I got to college, and it was kind of his song in college. I liked James Taylor. So it became kind of mine. And then every stage of life it just kind of keeps going, you know, like it’s part of my favorite playlist and it’s a very calming song.
Cathy: And. It is about James Taylor being somewhere and he wanted to be home. Mm-hmm. And he, so he daydreamed, you know, the song is about daydreaming. That’s your home. ’cause Carolina, North Carolina was his home.
Todd: Is that where he is from?
Cathy: Um, I don’t know. That’s what the song [00:20:00] is about. Now. I don’t know if that’s where he was born.
Cathy: Yeah. But that’s where he wanted to go back to.
Todd: Sometimes musicians pick words because they fit into the cadence of the song. You know what I mean? Yes. They won’t let their truth get in the way of something. That sounds good.
Cathy: I think it’s more autobiographical than that. Yeah. Okay. Um, so that, I love e everything James Taylor.
Cathy: But see, Mexico makes me sad. Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, sweet Baby James makes me sad. And going to Carolina is, it’s the first song on greatest hits too, so it just sets a tone for my body. I calm down,
Todd: here’s mine. Okay.
Cathy: Yeah.
When I find myself in times of trouble, I don’t
Todd: know if any explanation needs needs to happen for this.
Cathy: It’s about his mom.
Todd: Paul’s mom.
Cathy: Yeah. Remember the James Cord [00:21:00] thing? He explained why he wrote that song.
Todd: Yeah. If you wanna spend 20 minutes on YouTube, that’s worthwhile is watch the whole James Cord, Paul McCartney, carpool karaoke. It’s, it’s awesome. It’s pretty outstanding.
Cathy: So I always, when I always, you know, I’ve loved that song too, and when I hear Mother Mary, I obviously assume a religious
Todd: Sure.
Cathy: But his mom was named Mary, so, no, it’s literally Mother
Todd: Mary. Very good. Um, okay. Fire in the chest sweetie. What do you got?
Cathy: Oh,
Todd: what gives you fire in the chest, Tracy? Um, oh no, I was, I, we were gonna talk about it before we played the songs.
Cathy: No. Play the song and then we’ll talk about it. All
Todd: right. So let’s do that.
Todd: Where is she? She’s right here. Right here. Um, all right, here we go.
Don’t you know. Talking about a river sounds,
don’t you know how [00:22:00] talking about a river.
Alright,
Todd: sweetie, what do you got?
Cathy: I just, uh, again, I, this song was important to me in high school, like, I think it was junior or senior year. Again, partly ’cause of my dad. Again, these are obviously related to my parents. Um, he was a huge Tracy Chapman fan and he would talk to me all the time. About how, I mean, if you listen to that song about how you can’t push people down mm-hmm.
Cathy: Like that, they will come back and they will rise up, as she says. But you, that is not. Uh, not only is it not good for human dignity and all those basic things, but that’s not the way human behavior is, is you push people down, they will come back. And I, you know, I think we’re just in the a time right now where that song, I, this song has always been meaningful, but when I hear it, I know exactly where I am, who I am, what I believe in, and what I value.
Todd: Yeah. [00:23:00] Period. Uh, you want me to tell you what some of the things on the list that you put on.
Cathy: Say that sentence again. Do
Todd: you want me to tell you some of the things that you put on your list? Oh, about, um, feeling fire, create fires in the chest. Yeah, go ahead. Perimenopause.
Cathy: Literally
Todd: parentes, literally, uh, hypocritical behavior.
Cathy: Yep.
Todd: Lying in cowardice, cowardice, cowardice,
Cathy: cowardice,
Todd: uh, gender inequality, greed.
Cathy: Mm-hmm.
Todd: Narcissists.
Cathy: Mm-hmm.
Todd: Loss of rights and autonomy.
Cathy: Mm-hmm.
Todd: Women being excluded from medical research, leaving them misunderstood without proper treatment.
Cathy: Yes, those, all of those things bring fire to my chest. Yes, I get very frustrated about all of them.
Cathy: Um, and, uh, that’s in leadership, um, and political power. And it’s also just in everyday experiences. Any of those. Give, bring me a lot of, ugh. Mm-hmm. That sound that, ugh, that’s, that’s fire in me.
Todd: Yeah. [00:24:00] Um, I started just like more, uh, general, like I’m more like human traits. Okay. Or tendencies and, uh, arrogance.
Cathy: Yeah. You don’t like arrogance.
Todd: Although there’s plenty of times when I am either arrogant or I want to be arrogant, but catch myself. Sure. So there’s a little bit of that in me. Uh, entitlement.
Cathy: Same kind of world. Same.
Todd: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Just any part of that. Um, and, you know, stupid politicians doing crappy things that people steal from future generations and people that have less privilege.
Todd: Um,
Cathy: it’s it like, and the hypocritical nature of it. Not that I’d be okay with it if people were saying, yeah, I’m a, you know, I’m stealing from people and I’m worried about myself and not other people. Not that I would be like, well, okay. But the hypocritical nature of basically projecting what certain people are doing onto others, like, oh, those people are corrupt, or they’re awful people when it’s them who are doing awful [00:25:00] things.
Todd: That’s right.
Cathy: And it’s
Todd: called Projections.
Cathy: Yeah. Projection. And it’s frustrating
Todd: my song. Um. And it’s simply because it was relevant to one of our Zen parenting conferences,
but
Todd: he had to
so good.
Not anymore.
Todd: For those of you who don’t know what this is, this is a song called Quiet from a singer songwriter named Milk. Hold on. She’s building up here.[00:26:00]
I
Cathy: really. The best part is coming. Keep it. Oh it is? Yeah. Okay.
Todd: It’s just super powerful. She’s got a great video that I’m watching right now. Yeah. Like they, they do a story to the video. I thought it was just a live thing.
Cathy: Yeah,
Todd: she milk man. She’s the best. I know. She is the best. Like
Cathy: that part makes me cry all the time.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: And that song, um, you know, she [00:27:00] wrote that.
Cathy: She, uh, experienced sexual assault when she was younger and never talked about it, and then just realized how much it was affecting her behavior and life and choices, and so she finally talked about it and wrote that song. And then, uh, 2016, I. For the first Women’s March, she had a group of women and men too.
Cathy: There were some men there as well. Sing that song and someone caught it on their phone, you know, like taped them, you know. Recorded them singing it, and then the song went super viral and she was on a bunch of talk shows. And, and then Todd and I asked her to come to our conference in 2017, I think it was the Rob Bell conference.
Cathy: Right? Yeah. And, um, she’s probably, we’ve had some amazing speakers at our conferences, but I think she was the most impactful. I mean, we were sobbing. Yeah,
Todd: that was like I, that was by far the most powerful moment in any of our six or seven. Conferences that [00:28:00] we did
Cathy: and that she sang a bunch for us. It wasn’t just that song, but every song you could feel her.
Cathy: Yeah. Like, so Todd, that was a great pick like that. Thank you. That whole thing. I mean, it just,
Todd: uh, well, and it just cap, uh, encapsulates what we’re talking about, which is very much feeling something in your chest. I know I cry every time I hear that. Like, you could, you can take the lyrics outta that song.
Todd: The lyrics are super powerful also. But just, just listen to instrumental and it’ll, it’ll just. You know, get you.
Cathy: Yes.
Todd: Um, so quickly pivoting over to your second substack. Yeah. And, uh, what did we decide, what did I say It was called the word that, a word for when it’s all too much. And I just wanna read your first paragraph.
Todd: Okay. To kind of remind you, because you’ve been writing since then. When someone I love is hurting, I wanna help and I want to. Fix it, but rushing in too quickly to make it better. Pointing out a silver lining or jumping in with my own story, Hey, that happened to me once and I got through it [00:29:00] inevitably backfires, leaving them feeling unseen, maybe even frustrated that I wasn’t present for their experience.
Todd: You know, this is a PO Parenting podcast, and I think that sums up maybe 15 years of, uh, our podcast, which is instead of fixing
mm-hmm.
Todd: Your partner. Your employee, your children, your. Good friend, just be with them. Yeah. Um, what, what else do you wanna say? And we will get to the word in a second, but what else do you wanna say about this?
Cathy: It’s that mix of things, you know, everything. Nothing is black and white, where it’s like, um, sometimes, you know, when you’re listening to someone’s parenting advice or just advice about relationships overall, we can be very literal. Like, oh, I should just listen. Okay, then I’ll just listen and I won’t say anything.
Cathy: And that’s not real human behavior, right. I think what we’re. When we’re saying, Hey, be a listener, that means the most, that’s true. Listening does mean the most. And there’s also acknowledging [00:30:00] what you heard, um, giving feedback on what you heard, and also sometimes offering a new viewpoint. Not trying to solve the problem, but giving a new viewpoint.
Cathy: And I think that’s the one where I talked about Maryanne Williamson, right? Yep.
Todd: Well, and um. I don’t know where I heard this may have been from, you may have been from CLG, but the term is full body listening.
Uhhuh.
Todd: Sometimes when I’m listening, I’m listening from the head alone and my goal is to be able to listen from the head and the heart and the gut.
Mm-hmm.
Todd: And on my bad days, I’m not listening at all. Uh, but on my slightly better days, I’m just listening from my head. And then when I’m doing really well, I’m listening with my whole body. And somebody be like, what the hell does that mean? Like, I don’t know. I don’t know. I just know that there is a way of connecting, not just through thoughts and uh,
Cathy: well, I think it’s like what we talked about last week’s podcast.
Cathy: It’s empathy, right? Yeah. And, and I think it’s the reason why it’s such an interesting or messy [00:31:00] conversation is that I do appreciate the words you just used in your a hundred percent, right. You also have to have boundaries. You can’t give your whole body over to somebody else. Like, you know, like, I like the idea of I’m gonna give my heart and my soul and my everything to this listening, but you also have to have some sense of like, I know where I began and end and I know where you began and end.
Cathy: Right. And so
Todd: you could get easily get lost with
Cathy: that. I could. Yeah. I think that it depends on where your starting point is. And like to your point, you’re like, sometimes I used to use my head and now I’m using my body. And for me, I used to use my body. Yeah. And now I have to be more thoughtful about having a boundary.
Todd: Yeah. That’s interesting because you might have a, what is it? A default mode of full body listening Uhhuh. Mm-hmm. And you gotta be careful around that, whereas I have not a default. Mode of full body listening and it’s something I need to lean in towards. ’cause I rarely get lost with whomever is in front of me.
Todd: As a matter of fact, I’m, [00:32:00] my, my default is more being a little bit closed off and yours is being a little bit more spongy,
Cathy: too open. Like I, a visual that I have right now. Um. I don’t know, like six years ago, five years ago, I used this imagery of um, if you guys have seen stranger things of when. What’s his name?
Todd: Will,
Cathy: will, thank you. When Will is taken over by the, whatever that essence is, that it’s actually that we know who it is now. It’s, um, back starts. V Yeah, it’s back. Thank you. Yeah. You are crushing. I am. Um. Vena, there’s this in, uh, the second season he’s taken over and this whole thing like goes through his body and his, it’s like, it’s a really like harsh scene where you just see it like kind of taking him over.
Cathy: And I, five or six years ago, I said, that’s how I felt like when I got the flu. Mm-hmm. Which was true.
Todd: That’s right.
Cathy: But I can also use that imagery of [00:33:00] sometimes when I’m listening to people’s stories, if I’m not careful. Is I allow it to kind of go into my system. Into my chest. Into my stomach. And I like take it in my body.
Cathy: Yeah. Where then you’re like, I’m sick. I didn’t help you at all. And were that, so some people may say, well, that’s love. I. Not really. That’s like unhealthy for both of us. I should have more of a boundary when I’m listening so I can stay sturdy and support you. Yeah. Um, so anyway, that’s kind of the visual that I get of the, the not way to listen.
Todd: So the word that you share is Yes, called osis
Cathy: lis
Todd: Osis. I like to put, put my fist in the air, created gun kenig from the dictionary of obscure sorrows. Uhhuh fibrosis is the. Feeling of wanting to care a little less to loosen the grip on life and to let things feel lighter, freer, and more fun. And you talk about a volleyball, what is a volleyball?
Cathy: So the it, it’s kinda interesting because he created that word [00:34:00] and LiRo is an Italian word and it’s like. You know, being free or, you know, something, freedom of expression or something. And s is the, is like, you know,
Todd: state of being. State
Cathy: of being. We always put s at the end of words. Um, those of you who remember the SAT, you know, you had to know all those kind of things.
Cathy: And then li is also, I guess I’m not a volleyball player, but I guess that is a volleyball playing. Position, and it just means that that person gets to move around the volleyball court freely like they are. Like think of another, another sport where like maybe in soccer you’re the one who gets to run to the other side of the field.
Cathy: What’s that person called?
Todd: Um, which, I’m sorry, which sport? I was looking at my screen.
Cathy: Oh, soccer. I was saying like another sport where you get to be the free,
Todd: well, I think of a free safety
Cathy: football. Free safety. Okay, that’s good. So, and then also he continues the volleyball analogy to talk about the fact that.
Cathy: SSIS is kind of allowing yourself to be like a volleyball, moving from one [00:35:00] thing to the next with more freedom, more lightness. Not so much expectation, not so much, um, you know, connection to having a certain outcome. That there’s just a little more freedom of expression. And I think that that. Way of being is, and you know, it’s connected to the word liberation, right?
Cathy: You know, we’re, we’re more liberated so we can actually enjoy life and not be like, it was supposed to go this way. This isn’t fair. This is going the wrong way, therefore everything’s bad. It’s like, can we have a little more space to trust that maybe what’s coming right now? Could be useful or helpful and that we’re more like a volleyball going from one thing to the next.
Cathy: Now, for people, just like we were talking about our last issue with having a different starting point for people who are too free flowing, who have a hard time grounding themselves, maybe osis is not going to be their word.
Mm-hmm.
Cathy: But for people who are overstructured. Or who are hold tight to certain outcomes or need [00:36:00] things to be a certain way all the time, or think that they failed if things don’t work out exactly the way that their brain thought it should.
Cathy: Theosis is a form of liberation of like, I’m gonna be more open about this. I’m gonna, and the bottom line about it is we can enjoy life. A little more than we do. Yeah. Because if we decide the only way we like life is if things work out the exact way that we thought they should, it’s gonna be a rough road.
Cathy: Yeah. Because we’re not the only ones in the world. We’re part of a big puzzle. Yeah. So we’re not gonna be able to. Get somewhere without traffic. ’cause other people drive places. We’re not the only one driving. We’re not gonna be able to get every job we interview for, ’cause other people interview for it.
Todd: We are part of a system.
Cathy: We are part of a system. And sometimes things go the way we planned and that’s great, but when it doesn’t, can we be a little lighter about our expectation and we can, you know, we can set another goal. Like goals are not a bad thing. They only become. A heaviness if we think that’s the [00:37:00] only way we’re going to enjoy life or succeed is if everything works out the way we thought it should.
Todd: Not sure if this makes sense, but whenever I, you know, I’m, I’m watching a football game, let’s say, and then somebody’s praying to God correct that that will bring them victory at the end of the day. Mm-hmm. It’s for a Super Bowl or just a regular game. And I’m always like, well what about the guys on the other side, on the other sideline?
Todd: Like, ’cause they’re. Might be praying to God too. Right. And I don’t think that’s the way. If you believe in God, I don’t, not sure that that’s the way it works. Yeah. I don’t think God is gonna, God might help, or higher power might help us stay healthy and not get hurt. I think there’s some prayers that can be answered for that, but the idea of to pray to.
Todd: Beat somebody else who might be praying for the same thing on the other. Sideline just always seemed a little weird to me.
Cathy: If you get too cut and dry about those things, it doesn’t really work. Yeah. Does it? I mean, if you can use our prayers and having the universe have our back and you know, asking God for support to be our best selves and our most confident selves, but also not connecting [00:38:00] that to an actual outcome.
Cathy: Because sometimes being our best selves and our most confident selves is the ability to have humility. Yeah. You know, like not everything is about winning or losing. Yeah. That’s a very black and white. Um, well, and
Todd: winning and losing is a very human thing. Right. If you’re asking universal energy Correct.
Todd: To do something human, it’s, it’s not in alignment.
Cathy: Do you think the cavemen were doing like football games? Well, what makes sense to me
Todd: maybe, maybe there’s, what makes sense to me is like the Native Americans used to, they had a God, they had a sun God, and a rain God. Right. Like that makes sense to me.
Todd: Like, okay, gimme some rain because we need to feed ourselves, feed ourselves, and do all that. Um, so why did you mention Miriam Williamson?
Cathy: Oh, so, because this whole idea of osis, it’s like why would a word change anyone’s life? Right. And I said that one thing that really stuck with me, uh, when I read a Return to Love, which was her book that came out in like 1994, um, is.
Cathy: It was based on a course in Miracles. And one of the, the things that [00:39:00] she explains at the very beginning of the book is A miracle is just a shift in perception that I think sometimes we see a miracle to mean like something miraculous happens, Jesus walking on
Todd: water.
Cathy: Exactly. Like that’s how we perceive a miracle in our culture.
Cathy: But she defined a miracle in her book as a shift in perception because if your perception shifts. Everything you look at changes, right? And so, you know, if you have an idea of like, oh, I think being lighter and not holding so tight to expectation is really the way I’d rather live, then all of a sudden your relationship with expectation completely changes and your ability to have humility totally changes.
Cathy: So I just used that as an example of if we shift the idea of how we see things through just the use of a new word. That’s a miracle.
Todd: Well, it’s funny, uh, there was a book by Wayne Dyer way back when that I think we. Probably both red called when you [00:40:00] change the way you look at things, the things you look at change uhhuh.
Todd: And you’d be like, well, scientifically, that doesn’t make any sense. Because if I’m looking at an object, whether or not I’m observing it in one through one lens or through another, it’s still that object is still there. But I think with quantum mechanics, they now know that. The mere act of observing something does sometimes change.
Todd: Its inherent nature, and I’m not smart enough to explain it. Well, there’s something called a double slit experiment, and it has something to do with when there’s somebody looking at this experiment, the particles change from waves to matter or something like that. And when nobody’s looking, it goes back to waves.
Todd: So anyways.
Cathy: Well, and you’re right. And. That is a very pragmatic, literal, educational way of looking at it, and that’s welcome
Todd: to my world. Sweet. That’s
Cathy: valuable. But I also think what he means, ’cause he’s also basing that on a course in miracles.
Yeah.
Cathy: And I think what he’s saying is if you have a better, deeper, more heartfelt understanding of beauty, where you recognize beauty to be an energy, and you recognize beauty to be [00:41:00] something that someone exudes.
Cathy: It, and it’s not just about physical appearance, then all of a sudden you are going to see people in things as beautiful in a different way. So when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change, meaning someone, if you had a very surface experience of beauty where you’re like, beauty means this kind of hair, these kind of eyes, this kind of skin, then you’re gonna look around and be like, that person’s not beautiful.
Cathy: But if your idea of beauty changes, then you’re gonna look at things you’re gonna be like, that’s beautiful. Sure. So it’s like. There’s Todd’s educational way of looking at it, and then there’s just this real basic, like when your idea Sure. Of something changes. Of course
Todd: we can all shift our perspective.
Todd: The word
Cathy: productivity, right? Yeah. We were just talking about that. Like if in your gut, or not gut, but in your head, the productivity is about I checked everything off my list.
Yeah.
Cathy: And what if productivity meant a long conversation with someone? Yeah. What if it meant being in the sun
Todd: scared. Do you see what I mean?
Todd: Well, and you know, not to take a deep dive, [00:42:00] but it goes back to value. Correct. What is it that I find valuable? Correct. And what I find valuable is checking stuff off my email list so that I can be perceived by the outside as having some value. Um, yeah, getting things done. And let’s just say your. Example of productivity or your illustration of productivity is really connecting with another human being in a deep, authentic way,
Cathy: or connecting with something deep in me.
Cathy: Yeah. Like where I’m like, Ooh, I feel good doing this, or, oh, I haven’t sat in my meditation area for a while. Or, oh, there’s the lilac trees. I’m gonna go like take someone, put them in a cup. Like all that feels really, but here’s the thing, this is why it gets really. Interesting to talk about because your version is not wrong.
Cathy: It’s like, I, I can’t look at you and be like, whatever you think productivity is, it should be more like. Mine. I think that you have a, um, I think for me, something that’s important to me is to expand what [00:43:00] I was taught about productivity. Mm-hmm. I don’t know if you feel that way.
Todd: Well, and it goes back, and this is probably the wrong use of the term, but universal principles because.
Todd: Th these are not universal principles. These are very specific principles. But one thing that you and I have sort of agreed on since we started this podcast in 15 years ago is that connection is food. Right? Right. Connection is the oxygen of relationships and the value of somebody’s life is predicated upon the value of the, the depth of their relationship.
Cathy: Well go back, you just said this is based on universal principles, but these are like, what
Todd: were you talking about? Right? I was gonna say. Connection is food is a universal principle. Got it. But that’s not true. Some people might say that’s not what life is about. Life is about survival.
Cathy: But see, I would debate that and say that we have enough research to demonstrate that the reason that we are here is to be connected.
Cathy: Now, someone may say. What does that mean? And we’d have to give all these subcategories, like the fact that we can [00:44:00] only live on this earth if we are recognizing our connection. Someone picks the food, someone, you know, someone grows the food, someone picks the food, someone takes it in a truck to a grocery store.
Cathy: There’s someone who’s at the checkout like we have, be in connection with each other. Well, and some
Todd: people might be like, what about the hermit that that. That hunts his own food and or her food and doesn’t do anything. They could be connected to the earth, right? Correct. But they could not be with any other, they could potentially be connected.
Todd: Not to any other human beings. You and I tend to focus on other human beings, human relationships, um, because so in know, you could still say that same thing even for somebody who lives by themselves in, uh, in a secluded manner.
Cathy: Well, and I would, you’re right. And they could be connected to the earth, but I would debate, first of all, there’s not a lot of people who, there are people who live an isolated life.
Cathy: Sure. But it’s hard to believe that they wouldn’t want connection. Mm-hmm. Because that’s. That’s how we are hardwired. Now, someone could. [00:45:00] Be away from connection because they’ve been hurt or traumatized, and they may be fearful of connection. Sure. But I would still feel like their behavior and what’s going on inside of them, they’d still feel a whole, they’d still feel disconnected because, you know, this is, it does get into physics.
Cathy: Like we have this need to connect with other people. Yeah. Which is why, like I’ve heard so much in the last month about people using ai. Yeah. For coaching and for therapy. And not only Jason’s podcast, but one of my friends is telling me her husband’s been using it. All the time.
Yeah.
Cathy: And I actually am okay with that in the terms that not that anyone care.
Cathy: The tool in the toolbox. Exactly. It’s another tool for people who can’t afford therapy, whose lives are not allowing for whatever reason. That’s great. I also know that real change and really more in-depth work necessitates conversation with a human being
Todd: between two. People whose heart beats and nervous systems fluctuate.
Todd: Correct. As opposed to a bot.
Cathy: Just that alone. The [00:46:00] regulation of someone. Yeah. Um, you know, the part of why do we like having pets? Because pets can regulate us. Yeah. Because they also have heartbeats. Yeah. They’re calm. Yeah. We get called. They have energy. They have energy. So the whole idea of that we’re gonna get everything we need from ai, we’re gonna, a lot of people are gonna lose jobs.
Cathy: I mean, that’s definitely true. It’s funny,
Todd: I, I feel like I can nerve regulate my nervous system by sitting under a tree, which is alive. Sure. Obviously, it’s mm-hmm. Somewhat inanimate a thousand times faster than work through chat GPT.
Cathy: Yeah. Yeah. It just, that’s a, but, but
Todd: three can’t respond and, and listen and validate.
Todd: I mean, maybe it can’t, I don’t know. I, I’m just kind of playing with this exercise. I don’t really know. Well, yeah, go ahead.
Cathy: Well, to your point, it is a, it is a tool. Like I also think, like last night, Cameron came home and she was carsick. ’cause she was looking at her phone, in the car, her boyfriend was driving, so she wasn’t driving while looking.
Cathy: But she [00:47:00] came home and she walked in and she was like, oh, I’m carsick. And the first thing I always say is, lay down on the ground, go outside, lay down on the grass. Like the ground will ground you. Ground. You literally, like, you have to lay there for a little bit. It’s not instant, but that is the nature of something that’s living and breathing below you.
Yeah. Right.
Cathy: And that really will work now. And some people, you know, are like, I’m gonna take a Dramamine. That may work too. Like, let’s use all the tools that we have, um, drink water, whatever. But they’re all good. It, it’s just recognizing that. Uh, from the, what I understand, and maybe 20 years from now someone will be like, that wasn’t true.
Cathy: But I’ve done a lot of reading about this and research and teaching and writing and we need each other. Guys, sorry, we,
Todd: we are going to close the show unless you have anything specific that you want to share that we haven’t had a chance to share. I don’t
Cathy: think so. I think the, um. Only things that I would like to share is just to kind of line this up for everybody, that, um, as Todd said, Zen Pop Parenting is coming in [00:48:00] two weeks and you’ll love it, I promise.
Cathy: And you’re already subscribed. You don’t have to
Todd: different, we’ve already recorded two shows.
Cathy: Yeah. It’s so fun. And it’s still deep and we still have lots of meaning in it. So if you like this show because you learn something, believe me, you’ll, there’s plenty to learn. Zen Pop Parenting is coming if you really like focusing on very specific parenting.
Cathy: Um. Questions or ideas or observations? Join Team Zen because that’s where we do our, like a Yeah. When it comes to parenting. And so Todd and I can help you through personal things, whatever it may be, support you in whatever way we can, as can the rest of the team, Zen community, if you like to read things, um, if that’s the way you like to, you know.
Cathy: Learn, please go to my substack. You can, um, you know, subscribe for free or you can upgrade to paid. It’s super cheap. It’s like $5 a month. It’s nothing. Um, I mean, it is something, but it is not, it’s not, it’s not gonna break. It’s crazy. Most
Todd: people’s pay, it’s like a
Cathy: coffee. I got a coffee this morning with nothing in it, and it was $4.
Cathy: There. You, there’s nothing in it. And then the last thing is if you [00:49:00] or um, or if you are a man listening to talk. Uh, to, to us. Todd has an organization that he runs called Men Living, and I highly recommend you at least start following them, getting their newsletter, joining their, um, v very many meetings that they put on every week.
Todd: Get at least one, at least one a day. I’m leading my last advance for a while, I think in September in Virginia. Explain what an
Cathy: advance is. People don’t. So
Todd: it’s like a retreat. We used to call ’em retreats, but it was not sitting around, uh, just laying there. There’s one part personal growth, one part connection to yourself.
Todd: Mother Nature, we spend a lot of time outside and other men. And then we also have some fun play softball or floor hockey or dodge ball or something like that for a weekend from a Thursday through a Sunday. And this one happens to be inspired by the music title lyrics. Uh, pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon.
Todd: So if you’re interested and you identify as a man, then um. That the, the link to learn more is in the show notes of this podcast.
Cathy: And sometimes Todd and I do [00:50:00] classes that are, um, team Zen and Men Living Together. That’s right. Like where, we’ll, all last month we did a class about menopause and supporting your partner.
Cathy: And this month or this upcoming month, we’re doing one about getting your kid ready for college. Yeah. So. You know, so
Todd: we are gonna close with the Osis illustration that you had at the end of the Substack.
Cathy: It was my picture of John Bender,
Todd: so I’m playing the last 46 seconds of the Breakfast Club. Nice. And for those of you guys who have seen this movie as many times as Kathy and I have, you don’t need the visual because it’s already in your brain.
Todd: But, uh, John, um, not John Bender, John Hughes is gonna kind of, um, take us out. And John Bender. And John Bender. So here you go.
Dear Mr. Vernon, we accept the fact that we had to sacrifice a whole Saturday in detention for whatever it was we did wrong, but we think you’re crazy to make us write an essay. We, you who we think we are.
We see us as you wanna see us [00:51:00] in the simplest terms with the most convenient definitions of what we found out is that each one of us is a brain and an athlete and a basket case. A princess and the criminal. Does that answer your question? Sincerely yours, breakfast Club.
Round two. Change a little bit. And change a little bit. Pretty pleasant.
