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Todd: Hey, everybody, big things ahead. Don’t worry, we’re not going anywhere. For the past 15 years, Zen Parenting Radio has brought you thoughtful conversations about mindfulness, parenting, compassion, and self-awareness, and a bit of pop culture, too. Well, we’re ready to modernize.
Cathy: We’ll be exploring the same themes, but from a new direction.
Cathy: As Gen Xers who grew up with pop culture and are now raising kids in it, we’ve always known that pop culture plays a big role in our relationships and family culture, and it’s been a touchstone, a conversation starter, and a way we’ve stayed connected and made sense of the world. Starting June 1st, you’ll hear us talk more about the shows and music we grew up with and what’s new now, and how it all reflects our societal values.
Cathy: Our blind spots, our potential for growth and the ways we connect with our children and each other. We’ll still be diving into mindfulness, parenting, compassion and self-awareness, but [00:01:00] pop culture will be our main entry point.
Todd: For example, you might be interested in how MTV shaped our beliefs in parenting, why George Michael’s father figure has somehow stayed relevant and even interesting to our kids, and how the E True Hollywood story on Robert.
Todd: Downey Jr. Remind us what addiction looked like long before he became our kid’s hero. As Ironman. We’re also making this shift because we believe, especially right now, we all need more reminders of our connection, a bit of optimism and humor, and a historical pop cultural lens to help us remember that we’re still in this together and that we’re gonna be okay.
Cathy: It’s a small shift that means a lot to us. We know that pop culture is a mirror, and when we look at it with curiosity and honesty, we find deeper insight into who we are, what we care about, and how we wanna show up in the world. So stay tuned. The title and topics will be new and exciting, and the heart of the show will stay the same, but we think you’ll notice a renewed enthusiasm and joy.
Cathy: It’s a more modern and genuine approach that reflects who we [00:02:00] are today. So get ready for Zen, then pop parenting. There’s so much more to come.
Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is episode number 815. Why Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s wellbeing, is a parent self understanding. That motto is gonna get set aside starting June 3rd, sweetie,
Cathy: still will be in the heart of what we do.
Cathy: We’re never gonna lose it. What are you gonna say that’s different when we do Zen Pop parenting,
Todd: whatever you tell me too. Lieutenant
Cathy: Diane.
Todd: We’ll, we’ll come up with something.
Cathy: Yeah. Um, and actually we’re already taping shows for it, so we’re, we’re not just coming up with something. Everything’s gonna be ready to go First one is in the bag and the second one is about to be recorded in about after that an hour.
Cathy: Yeah, it’s so. Fun. Yeah. Todd and I are having the best time, so we hope that, um, not only [00:03:00] do you listen, obviously you’re already subscribed so you don’t have to do anything different, but tell people about it. Like, one thing that Todd and I have been discussing a lot lately is that at least where we are in our stage of parenting and life, we really do still appreciate the deep stuff.
Cathy: We need it, you know, it inspires us, wakes us up, but we also just want to enjoy what we enjoy. And have times where we laugh and reminisce and remember and um, and find light in sometimes what our daily news tends to be and the worries that we have. And Todd and I have just found a lot of light, so we wanna spread that light.
Todd: Yeah. To you listener. We’re gonna laugh and love. We’re gonna laugh and love and remember. Maybe that’s what we’ll call
Cathy: it. Just a laugh and laugh and love. Easy
Todd: to remember.
Cathy: That sign is made fun of now. Oh, is it? Light or it’s like live, laugh, love. Oh yeah. It’s very like country home. Yeah. You know, buy it at Target.
Cathy: Kind of sign.
Todd: Take me [00:04:00] Home Country Road.
Cathy: But we’re, we’re kind of talking about that today.
Todd: We’re gonna talk about one of your Substack Uhhuh, uh, empathy. Empathy. And we’re gonna sprinkle in what you did for Mother’s Day yesterday Okay. As well. Um, I do have a key, a few house, not housekeeping, but, um, I just wanna say thanks to, um, a little bit of good news.
Todd: Because I get, I subscribe to that good newsletter. Okay. Um, good old Pope Francis, who passed away. Mm-hmm. Uh, about two weeks ago, donate his entire personal bank account to prisoners right before he died, uh, $226,000 this guy had in the bank,
Cathy: and he gave one of his Pope Mobiles. To an organization that feeds children.
Todd: Yeah. Um,
Cathy: so they could go around with the popemobile and feel and feed children.
Todd: And I know it’s a, a, a well worn pattern right now on all of the Instagrams and the tiktoks and everything. It’s called social media
Cathy: Babe.
Todd: But, uh, there’s a new Pope and he is from the south side of Chicago and he is in fact a White Sox [00:05:00] fan, which, I mean, I can’t believe this.
Todd: And, you know, we could talk about, we could talk about this for the next half hour and we won’t, but it’s just crazy insane that, that we have a Pope that’s American and that he is from the south side and that he is a White Sox fan. That’s crazy.
Cathy: Todd, you guys are basically like. Best friends.
Todd: Exactly. And well, the fact that they got coverage of this guy being at a SOX game, well, at the World Series game, one of the World Series in 2005, they happened to have him, like in the regular broadcast, they have a picture of him.
Todd: How’d they find that? I don’t know. Like, how do you even start? Probably because somebody knew that he, because you know, if you’re on television for a World series, you’re gonna be like, oh, there’s Joe, my buddy. Oh, okay. So like, they just kind of remember like, Hey, there’s, but it’s not Joe, it’s Pope Bob.
Todd: Actually pop Pope Leo, Pope Leo. He used to be Bob Robert. Yeah,
Cathy: yeah, yeah. Well, what’s funny, um, for those of you who are not from Chicago, you can only imagine what is happening here as far as, hey, my friend lived down the street [00:06:00] from his brother whose sister called me once. And I mean, everybody has their own story of like how they are connected to this Pope.
Cathy: Um, and. It’s been kind of fun because, you know, everybody has, it’s called belonging. It makes us feel like, you know, we be, that he belongs to us and that we belong to him. And there’s connection there. It’s very human quality to want to find our interconnectedness, um, with the Pope, which is exactly what you’re doing with him being a Ax fan, because at first all the memes that were going around were him and Cubs gear.
That’s right. And
Cathy: then all of a sudden there was a a, uh. Interview with his brother who connection to me, who lives in the town in Florida where my aunt lives,
Todd: which basically means you’re best friends with Pope Leo.
Cathy: Exactly. Um, and his brother said, no, no. He’s a Sox fan. Yeah. Let’s be clear. Which Obama was also a Sox fan, everybody.
Cathy: That’s right. So there are two we
Todd: can use all the help we can get
Cathy: right now. Very much so. He, he’s gonna pray a little extra for his white socks. Yeah. [00:07:00] Um, and, but it is pretty lovely and I hope, um, that at least from what I’ve heard from him so far, uh. There is a lot of focus on, you know, focusing on the ministry and taking care of others and, um, it has a Pope Francis ish kind of feel.
Cathy: Mm-hmm. Um, again, we, it’s not that we have to agree with every single thing that’s happening ’cause I always. Obviously got a lot of texts from people too, who were like, but his views on this or views on that. And I know there’s a long way to go, especially with the Catholic church, but, um, the question
Todd: is, are we moving in the right direction, correct or the wrong direction.
Todd: And it seems to be continuing in Pope Francises, also known as Papa Francesco. Papa Francesco, my daughter was in Italy for a semester. And the people that housed her,
Cathy: her family
Todd: were her family. Um. Referred as Papa Francesca, which is what everybody refers it to him, but we just think of him as Pope Francis.
Todd: So anyways, but,
Cathy: but they, it was beyond that. They loved him. They loved Papa. [00:08:00] Took
Todd: a picture of him on the
Cathy: fridge and she would like kiss and grandma would be
Todd: revered. Him,
Cathy: loved him. And so we would always call him Papa Francesca. So we were very sad when he died.
Todd: Before we talk about your Substack Yes. Um, quick plug for Teams N Yes.
Todd: You have a women’s group tomorrow? Yep. Um, and I love our group and that is an opportunity for, to get on Zoom with Kathy and a, I don’t know, a dozen or so other, like-minded or sometimes not so like-minded women, uh, talking about the challenges and the celebrations of being a mom and being a woman. Uh, and we also have a q and a with Dr.
Todd: John Duffy in about a week. And then you and I are doing something called College is Coming, how to Talk with our kids, set Expectations to Stay Connected. Before and after. Yeah.
Cathy: Those of you who like listen to us and you’re like, I’m here for the parenting. I’m here for the deep dives into parenting. I’m glad you’re here and we’ll continue having those conversations.
Cathy: But if you really want more, team Zen is our place where we do our. Deepest parenting work.
Todd: Yeah. Our heavy lifting. Our
Cathy: heavy lifting where we do q and As and we [00:09:00] do conver, you know, talks and we offer workshops and that is the deep dive into parenting. So if you are in, you know, if you have a preteen right now, or a teenager, or you’re launching a kid into college, like this is the.
Cathy: Team Zen is where we’re doing that. Um, it’s $25 a month. You can, you know, cancel it anytime, cancel it any time. So just come in for a couple months if you want. You don’t, there’s no, we don’t try and hold you or bribe you. We, we just want you to come and go.
Yeah.
Cathy: Um, and, but hopefully stay ’cause we have a good time too.
Cathy: We do. The crew at Team Zen is kind of stellar.
Todd: Yeah. And I would, we could You wanna be, you wanna be stellar to get on teams down. Yeah.
Cathy: If you wanna feel outstanding and be stellar, come to teams Z because they will, it’s a, it’s a. If, if you feel like you’re surrounded by people who don’t have like, focus on other people and, and empathy and, and understanding of the world, then you wanna come to team end because they’re really great people.
Todd: Um, so your substack is called, yes.
Cathy: Yes. Empathy.
Todd: Empathy. With all the noise out there suggesting that empathy doesn’t work or shouldn’t matter, let’s remember what [00:10:00] we already know. What was your in? For writing this wonderful substack. Well,
Cathy: I had read something, uh, early last week about, um, empathy being demonized, like, and I’m using that word specifically because it’s often interesting that we’re talking about the Pope.
Cathy: ’cause it’s often related to religious doctrine that. If that empathy is not a good thing, um, for these various reasons. Then I also see business people who, I’ve seen some things on the news, including Elon Musk, who said something to the effect of empathy is, uh, Western culture’s greatest problem. And then I was listening to Glennon’s podcast on Friday, and uh, they had on the woman who, um.
Cathy: The religious figure who spoke up to Trump during the, uh, after the inauguration, she did the sur or the sermon, or you know, she was the speaker and she, all she asked of him was to be merciful. Mm-hmm. It to be, to, you know, to share mercy. To offer mercy. And then there’s a bunch of people telling her that she needed to apologize when that’s like, her [00:11:00] whole job is to be that person who says, let’s practice mercy, but.
Cathy: You know, well, that’s beyond the point. And then she was saying how so many people in her world or in the world of Christianity, not so many people, but that there was a drive to call empathy, a sin. And I then started doing some reading, like where this came from, what books because. I teach empathy, um, in my college class, uh, and I have for 13 years, 10 plus years.
Cathy: You know, like we talk about empathy and every book that comes out, I tend to, if not read or use in my class, I at least reference it. I try and get kind of the new spin on what people are saying, and it isn’t new that people are trying to demonize empathy. There is always this vibe of like, empathy can be bad if, and.
Cathy: And that’s just people trying to get a new viewpoint, right? They’re trying to be like, yeah, but have you thought about this? Um, the bottom line though is empathy is a good thing.
Yeah.
Cathy: And [00:12:00] anything. Can be, I mean, as Todd always says, even water can be made bad if you drink too much of it, right? Yeah. You could hyperhydrate and die.
Cathy: Correct. So there’s nothing, things are not black and white. There’s all sorts of gray, and there always is. But I wanted to write something about, let’s have some clarity here. Like when you think about the word empathy, when you have empathy. What does that mean? And we already know that’s a good thing. And Zen parenting moment my like, you know, big flagship of what I write under, it’s called Zen Parenting Moment.
Cathy: And the tagline to it is what we know but tend to forget. Mm-hmm. And I think that
Todd: this is a perfect, this is
Cathy: a perfect example.
Todd: Um, I found some quotes and I’m gonna play them for you. Okay. And we’re gonna see if you can figure out and if they’re on empathy.
Okay.
Todd: And they’re from the movies. Oh, ooh, I like this.
Todd: So let’s see if you get this one. Okay. Let’s see. I know, I know you’ve seen this movie.
If there’s any kind of magic in this world, it must [00:13:00] be in the attempt of understanding someone, sharing something.
Cathy: Oh God, I know that voice. I. Can
Todd: you give me a year or like a, is it, uh, nineties? Uh, we watched this probably right after college. It’s about two people falling in love meeting for the first time on a
Cathy: Oh, I know.
Cathy: Before, uh, before sunrise. Very
Todd: good.
Cathy: I knew that voice. I’m like, I know. It’s Julie Delphi. Nice job. Mm-hmm.
Todd: Um, I got another one here. Um, I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but I think, I think this, the voice will throw it off.
Okay. Oh, you’re not just saying that. Two our broken hearts are you.
Where are you?
Todd: Sounds like a cartoon. That was Tigger in a very merry POH year. I
Cathy: would not get
Todd: that one. No. Even
Cathy: though I do love Tigger now,
Todd: I’ve never, this is from 1964. You probably have never seen [00:14:00] this. Oh, okay. But the actor, you know. Okay. Um. We must try to understand other people more.
Cathy: Yes. We should understand cruelty and weakness
Todd: even that it’s true.
Todd: Any idea whose voice that is?
Cathy: Um, gosh, it kind of sounded like obiwan. Um, that’s exactly right. Is it a gi is.
Todd: From a movie called The Fall of the Roman Empire. Nice. Um, I have a few more here. Let me see if I can. A lot of these are like old movies. Yeah, that’s dumb. Not gonna do that one. Not gonna do that one.
Todd: Ooh, this one. You know.
Well, why does his life have any less value than yours? Be Booy. Why does his life have any less value
Todd: than mine? Is that your statement?
I’m just saying all life has value. You don’t know what he’s capable of feeling.
Todd: Very good, sweetie. You got that one. I.
Cathy: That’s Renee Zellweger [00:15:00] doing her best. Um, Vanessa?
Todd: Yes.
Cathy: And then that’s putty
Todd: and that’s one of our kids’ favorite movies, I think. Oh
Cathy: my gosh. They, they call it one of their sick movies. Yeah, because we just watched it so much when they were sick that it’s ingrained in our brains. And B-movie I think was a semi hit, but not a huge hit. But it’s got so much funny pop culture in it.
Cathy: Mm-hmm. Like there’s funny cameos and, and such. So yeah. I suggest Go CB movie. Last one. Here we go.
What do you think about that?
Todd: Mm-hmm. You’re never gonna get it Color purple. Uh, it says Muhammad Ali in the greatest. So I think that was maybe his mom saying about what does she think when he’s getting hit A boxing ring.
Cathy: Okay. I thought it
Todd: was so, anyways, I’d just like to have some fun and throw some movies in there. So I didn’t mean to distract you from your substack, so,
Cathy: well, let’s just talk a little bit about.
Cathy: Because I always like [00:16:00] to add some balance here. Sure. Bring balance to the force. Yes,
Todd: please.
Cathy: Um, is that, let’s understand why people are saying empathy is bad. So then instead of just saying, no, it’s good, let’s give them this moment. Mm-hmm. And say, here’s some of the reasons, um, that people say empathy. Is not good.
Cathy: Mm-hmm. Like I said, the majority of it is based in, uh, religion, and the belief is that empathy can become sinful when it leads to uncritical, acceptance of others’ perspectives. What does this mean? That it could compromise your moral judgment if you’re empathetic and that, um, they, they, one of the authors calls it a quicksand analogy that, um, empathy is jumping in and sinking with the person, which.
Cathy: Right away I will kind of, you know, qualify, qualify and say empathy is not about feeling and and taking on what another person is feeling. That’s not what [00:17:00] empathy is. Empathy is the ability to understand what someone is feeling. ’cause you have in some way in your life, felt your
Todd: version
Cathy: of the quicksand.
Cathy: Exactly. So you don’t have to take, and again. I, part of why I want to talk about this is, this is a hard one understanding for me because early days of being a therapist, I did do some quicksand, right?
Todd: You jumped in with them too much, which left you unable to be able to serve them in the way that they needed to be served,
Cathy: correct?
Cathy: Now, understanding what empathy really is, is going into it and taking it on and processing it through your body. Those of you who’ve been listening to Zen Parenting a long time, this, you know, you’ll remember that I’ve said this a lot. Is that you can’t process other people’s stuff through your body.
Cathy: Your body will go, I don’t know where to put that. It’s like junk food that has no place to go ’cause it’s not yours.
Todd: Well and real quick, we talked about a little bit about this. You know, as we were raising our three daughters and still are. Um, I. They have a bad time at school. Something [00:18:00] happened at the lunch table.
Todd: And if we sink into the depths of where they are with them, we’re not very, very helpful to them.
Cathy: And we’re, we can’t pull ’em out. Yeah. ’cause we’re in the quicksand. I always, I think we used to use like a ladder analogy. Yeah. Like we kind of have to be above it. Not above it. Like what they’re experiencing isn’t important.
Cathy: ’cause it is. But we have to be strong enough, be stable enough to help pull them out of it. Yeah. We have to be like, I can see the bigger picture here. I. Feel the feelings you’re having. I have had before as well. Yeah. And I can sit in the dark with you and empathize with you and listen and allow it to be.
Todd: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: I don’t need to change it right away without, without
Todd: fixing.
Cathy: Without fixing. But I also am gonna be stable enough that when you need some help, I can hold you strongly and not be down in the dumps with you. Um, another, uh, thought here that, um, another person’s writing, they said that. Empathy is manipulating emotions and weakening moral clarity.
Cathy: Again, it’s very connected to the theological [00:19:00] concerns. They say that excessive empathy can place human feelings above divine commandments. This could lead to sinful behavior under the label of compassion. Now, the the things about this is that I always have to go back and be like, what is. Religion for what is, this is deep thought, right?
Cathy: Why do we practice spiritual practices regardless of what it is? Mm-hmm. My understanding has always been because it’s to care for each other. Sure. That we are supposed to take care of each other. That, you know, um, love, you know, bible scripture better than I do, but like not much. Uh, love. Love the Lord your God, love your neighbor as yourself.
Cathy: Mm-hmm. Like everything is about love. Right? So a lot of New Testament right there, right? So, but commandments promote justice and fairness in relationships, right? Isn’t that the goal? And that loving others is not a way to get ahead, but to build connection and [00:20:00] responsibility for others. So the big deep thought is when empathy is labeled a sin.
Cathy: For distorting truth, and I’m putting that in air quotes. Is the goal of of a divine commandment to protect a doctrine or is it to protect people? Depends who you ask. Right. And this is, I think, where it gets messy, my belief system and again, is that we’re here to connect to each other and to take care of each other.
Cathy: And I feel that my own understanding of God and universe and love is that that’s what’s implied. Yeah. Um, so. You know, uh, what, what I wanna say to everybody is that, um, I’m not a theologian, but I was, you play one on tv. I play one on tv. I told Todd the other day, we were taking a walk and we were talking about like if we could go back to college, what I would study and I already know.
Cathy: I would study, I’d still study psychology. Um, I would, when I say still, I didn’t study psychology, but I took a lot of psychology. Um, and I would still [00:21:00] study. Uh, I would wanna study. Film or pop culture or just cultural studies? Sure. And then I’d want to minor in theology. And then I would wanna go get my master’s degree in social work just like I already did.
Cathy: Like I would repeat that.
Yeah.
Cathy: But, um, I have loved being a teacher. Like, no, no shame to my, my teaching background. ’cause that’s what I got my degree in was elementary education. But what I love now are, I like talking about theology because I think it’s very beautiful and it’s all very interconnected, but I think it gets warped sometimes by if people don’t corruption power, all that stuff.
Cathy: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Todd: Totally. I agree. Do you agree with that? Um, yeah. And I, I don’t wanna step on your toes, but I just wanna highlight a few things from your substack. Sure. No, go. I thought go ahead was really good. Um, we, you talk a little bit about, occasionally I ask Todd how people can watch Star Wars and still think the choices.
Todd: They’re making are the good ones. And he always says, everyone thinks they’re Luke or Leia. But do they, if people [00:22:00] start openly demonizing empathy and uplifting dominance or harm, they aren’t siding with the part of the forest that blows up planets,
Cathy: then are they siding with the part of the, yeah.
Todd: And aren’t they siding with the part of the force?
Todd: Mm-hmm. And I do think that most people see themselves as the hero in the movie. And I feel like this is an interesting transition to, you wrote a Mother’s Day blog for your paid subject. Did I get that? No, everybody got it. Oh, everybody got that one? Mm-hmm. Um, and you talked, uh, about, and I used to do this all the time, and this might.
Todd: Get us into some, I don’t know. I know it’ll get me into some dangerous territory, but I’m willing to go there. Okay. When our kids, uh, were great Six Flags, um, we’re like, if you get lost, go find a mom with a baby.
Cathy: Yeah. We’d say that all the time. Mm-hmm.
Todd: And a
Cathy: mom with a stroller,
Todd: mom with a stroller. Mm-hmm.
Todd: And I know that there’s other people, mostly men in my life that are gonna be like, Hey, we can, we can be as caring and nu nurturing too. And that is true. But I also think that we have been conditioned, uh, [00:23:00] that if my daughters are lost, I would, I, I think that they would be safer going, uh, to a mom with a stroller than a dad.
Todd: Without a stroller.
Cathy: Oh. And this, I mean, I feel like we did the whole show last year about the Man Bear thing. Remember that whole controversy, right? Yeah. And I don’t want to get back
Todd: into all
Cathy: that, but let me, I’m, but what I want to, why I wanna use it. Oh, okay. It’s not to, uh, throw men under the bus at all.
Cathy: Yeah. We just have to be, again, this is where we have to be kind of literal. Um. It’s not about, it’s like what I talk about with patriarchy. It’s not about individual men. We have to be able to see ourselves and be like. This is not about me. This is about a system and a system that we have right now, and an experience that a lot of women have had is they have been hurt or harmed by a man.
Cathy: Many men have been hurt or harmed by a man, correct? Yeah. We talk about this all the time, [00:24:00] so women. If they have ever been hurt physically, emotionally, um, sexually, then it’s not about you specific, man. It’s about. The, when I go out in the world, I don’t know who is safe. Yeah. Who is not.
Todd: Statistics, statistically speaking, all that stuff.
Cathy: Exactly. So once a woman gets to know a man and trusts, it’s fine. It’s great. Like this is not about No all men. It’s about, you have to understand that. I would never tell my daughter to go up to a man by himself. Yeah. Because I don’t know who that man is. A mom with children. Like, you know, obviously we could, we could split hairs and be like, well, if I saw a dad with a stroller and a, and a dog, and, but that’s not as common.
Cathy: Mm-hmm. Especially, wasn’t as common.
Todd: Yeah. Like if they’re
Cathy: 20 years ago,
Todd: if my kids are just waiting for a dad with a stroller walking around. Right. They might be waiting a little while.
Cathy: Especially 20 years ago. Now, one thing I have noticed, because I take walks in the morning quite often, and when I see the kids [00:25:00] walking to school with their parents, I told Todd a number of times, I’m like, I see so many more dads.
Cathy: Yeah. And I don’t just mean with the mom, I mean by themselves, the kids. Yeah. We’re we’re getting there we’re, yeah. So that is changing. But that was, so I think the thing is, is your friends Todd, and the men that I know, I trust with my daughters completely. Of course. They’re lovely human beings. Yeah. But when we’re talking about strangers.
Cathy: It we’re gonna be much more likely to go to a woman.
Todd: Well, because you brought up man versus bear. I do. For some reason I started thinking of villains. ’cause I always trying to think of how can we pull pop culture into this? Sure. And I just pulled up the top 20 movie villains of all time. I bet they’re all men.
Todd: Well that, that was my question. So first of all, who’s the number one villain of all time? Darth Vader. Darth Vader number one? Mm-hmm. And who’s number two?
Cathy: Hannibal Lecter. Very
Todd: good. Number two. Number three, they have the Joker Uhhuh for the Dark Knight. Mm-hmm. Number four, they have Norman Bates. How far down until you think we get to.
Todd: To a woman. I, I pulled up the top 20.
Cathy: I probably, maybe 20.
Todd: Any idea [00:26:00] who that woman might be?
Cathy: Maleficent, um, uh, let’s see. I’m thinking of Charlize. Uh, no, that was a real person that she did that movie about. Um, let me think for a second. Give me a second. Do
Todd: do, should I, here, I’m gonna play, I’m gonna play a little sound bite that we’re playing on Zen pop parenting.
Todd: What
Cathy: do you mean? We’re,
Todd: I’m just going to flow it a little. Oh, this is from our new show. This is from our new show. Okay. And when we’re doing trivia, as you’re thinking,
Cathy: Todd has a good sound,
Todd: this is it.
Cathy: Hey. Okay.
Todd: Are you thinking right now, sweetie?
Cathy: No, I’m listening. You gotta think. Okay. I’m thinking of a woman who has been a villain.
Cathy: Can you gimme any like hints that won’t give it away?
Todd: Not to brag, but I thought of this person instantly. You did think of scary move. I think of a scary movie like
Cathy: The Ring.
Todd: No. Think of Stephen King. Fire starter? No. Think of uh
Cathy: oh [00:27:00] Misery. Kathy Bates there. There you go. Kathy
Todd: Bates. She’s number nine. Okay.
Todd: Number. That’s fair. Number 10 is Nurse Ratchet.
Cathy: Yes. That’s good.
Todd: And then we got the Wicked Witch of the West. Sure. She’s, but she really wasn’t wicked because we’ve all seen Wicked. We now, we now know that, don’t we? And then Regina George is in there. Sure. Mean girls. And then that’s it. Those are all the girls.
Todd: Uh, so just to round out the guys, uh, Norman Bates, Anton Sugar. Who scares the bejesus out of me? That’s
Cathy: Todd’s like greatest fear.
Todd: That guy from, from no country for old men, Voldemort. Sure. Hans Gruber wonderful. Yeah. He’s our favorite. Mm-hmm. Michael Myers. Yeah. Jason didn’t make the list, sweetie.
Cathy: Well that’s ’cause Jason isn’t real.
Todd: Oh. Put Michael Myers in.
Cathy: Yes, you’re right. I Okay. Ja. So, okay. Can we do like a two minute, go ahead. Michael Meyer, Jason thing? Sure. So I was just actually listening to a podcast about Halloween. I listened to a very strange podcast, um, and they were talking about the fact that what they really messed up with Michael Myers in Halloween is they shouldn’t have [00:28:00] kept killing him and bringing him back to life.
Cathy: Michael Myers should have been an energy. That they were able to pa it passed along kind of like it got tau or absorbed, and then it could have been a continuation. Kind of like scream. I. You know, scream, it’s never the same people, right? It’s somebody else trying to be ghostface, right? So you’re not like trying to deal with the whole supernatural fact of this person’s been shot, burned, cut up, you know, stabbed eyes, gouged out.
Cathy: It’s like, how are they back? Um, and so they made that mistake because they didn’t have a plan. Halloween one and two are connected, but then three was totally different. Four was four. They tried to do it with the little girl and then five became different, and then H two blah, blah blah. So it’s like they didn’t have a plan.
Cathy: That’s my deep thought. And then what about, what about this guy? Well, Jason was sorry to, uh, I’m gonna give something away if you haven’t seen it. Um, [00:29:00] but in the first. Friday, uh, I was gonna say Friday Night Lights in the first Friday the 13th.
Todd: Is this distracting
Cathy: you? It’s okay. Um, it’s the mom. Sorry.
Cathy: Spoiler. I. In at the end of Friday the 13th, Jason jumps out of the water. Yes, he does. That’s a terrifying moment and gets the girl. Yes, he does. And then all of a sudden Jason is the killer, but he was already dead. He had drowned a long time ago, so you’re already jumping into a supernatural kind of thing.
Cathy: The mom was super interesting Friday the 13th, part one. Not saying it’s a great movie, but the concept was pretty scary and good. That’s right. That mom was creepy. As, yes, she was as hell
Todd: as I get. Get out. Uh, the other villains are Thanos. Oh, good one. Yeah. Um, Saron from Lord of the Rings, which I think I’ve only seen one of those on a plane.
Todd: Okay. Tommy DeVito from Goodfellas, like Joe Pei’s character. Hey, S Spider. Yeah. Uh, Jack Torrens from The Shining. Sure. Uh, [00:30:00] the Alien. Uh, it just says the Alien. Yeah. But Goum from Lord of the Rings. Kylo Ren. Scar.
Cathy: See, this gets a little murky. I was even gonna say that. A few of those, going way back, get a little murky because like, okay, Thanos is a bad guy.
Cathy: Don’t get me wrong. The Snap, everything, whatever. But everybody has this deep reason why they’re doing what they’re doing. All villains do. Like the reason the Joker is the scariest villain is because, and he’s number three, is that he didn’t. Wanna prove anything. He just wanted to be chaotic. Right. And that’s creepy because, you know, like Hans Gruber, well he just wanted money.
Cathy: He was greedy. Um, he tried to pretend that he was doing it for other reasons, but he wasn’t. Mm-hmm. He admitted it at the end. He’s like, I’m just making all this up. Um, but everybody has these deep reasons, right? Why they do what they do. It doesn’t make it Okay.
Why have my boy here pull your head off? How about a magic trick?[00:31:00]
Todd: I am gonna make this pencil disappear. Oh,
Cathy: it’s. That’s disgusting. I know exactly what happened in that. He
Todd: might be one of the best. He, he’s not better than Darth Vader, but there’s a reason he’s number three. He’s such a good, creepy guy.
Cathy: You know, Michelle Williams is doing a new show called, UH, dying for Sex, and if anyone hasn’t listened to the podcast Dying for Sex, he should.
Cathy: It’s excellent. It’s, uh. True story. The woman. The woman who made it, you know, is it’s about her. And then Michelle Williams listened to the podcast and then ended up doing a show. It’s her and Jenny Slate, and I was just listening to an interview with her. I think it was on NPR and I. They asked her about Heath Ledger and she doesn’t talk about that very much.
Cathy: That’s not a, that’s been kind of off limits for however many years ’cause they have a daughter together. Um, [00:32:00] but it was really lovely. It was, it’s NPR so it’s not, they’re not trying to get a gotcha moment or anything.
Right, right.
Cathy: And you know who she said moved in with her and like made their house.
Cathy: Light again.
Uh, I thought
Cathy: this was so interesting. These, these connections in Hollywood, Jeremy Strong. Oh, wow. They were not romantically linked. They’re best friends. Oh, wow. But she said he moved in. And he, what did she say? That he would say that their house was camp awesome. And he would just try and keep everything light and fun and make Matilda’s life.
Cathy: That’s their daughter, Heath and Heath Ledger and Michelle Williams make their life go on. He was just there as to help them transition. And I just feel like Jeremy Strong gets a bad rap for being such a method actor. And, uh, he’s
Todd: kinda a, yeah, he’s a little different.
Cathy: It is. And I, so I really like that
Todd: I decided to, uh, flip the coin on the villains.
Todd: Okay. And just ask about the top 20. Movie protagonist of all time. Oh, okay. Um, any guesses? Male or female?
Cathy: I know that, I [00:33:00] know some females in there for sure. I’m sure Katniss Everdeen is in there from the Hunger Games. I think number one would probably be, I mean, are we talking Luke Skywalker? Are we? No, think
Todd: of your aunt.
Cathy: Okay, so we’re talking, think of my aunt?
Todd: Yeah, just think of black and white movies.
Cathy: Oh, like. Casablanca,
Todd: Atticus Finch, sweetie. Oh, to Kill, oh yeah, of course. And then we got Forrest Gump. Forrest Gump. Okay. In Indiana Jones. Great. Andy Dufrene. Oh yes. Luke Skywalker. Yeah. Rocky Balboa. No women so far. Okay. And now we have our first woman.
Todd: I’ve never even seen this movie. I’m embarrassed to say what? Ellen Ripley. Do you know who she is?
Cathy: Yeah. That’s Alien.
Todd: Yeah. Have you seen all those?
Cathy: I’ve seen the first one with Sue. I, I’ve seen, no, I’ve seen more than one. I think I’ve seen two or three. Um, that’s, but Ripley is in the first. I feel like she was a little like Jamie Lee Curtis, like, she
Todd: skipped a few.
Todd: Am I right or wrong? I think, but she does come back, I think eventually. Yeah. Any other female protagonist you [00:34:00] can think of? S. Yeah, she’s not in here, but she de deserves to be in there. Anybody else? Um, gosh, I, it’s so hard to do every single movie. It’s, it’s an unfair question. Clarice. What about Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz?
Todd: No, she’s not in here, but, uh, Clarice Clarice. Aaron Brockovich? Yes. Good one. I’ve never heard of this person. Amelia Ula from Amelia.
Cathy: Amelia. It’s not Amelia. I think it’s Amali.
Todd: I’m Ali. Yeah, you’re probably right. And then Elizabeth Bennett from Pride and Prejudice. Sure, of course. Yeah. So anyways, just say to have some fun there.
Cathy: Okay. Um, so can we go back to kind of the history of empathy and just, I wanna like kind of get, be done with the part where empathy is a problem and talk about why empathy is helpful. So, to summarize why people think empathy is a problem, um, there’s a belief that it, you know, the quicksand theory. The idea that it somehow takes us away from commandments and that it somehow makes us weak.
Cathy: Um, what I would respond to that though [00:35:00] is are we policing behavior with that idea, especially of marginalized groups? Are we trying to uphold a certain hierarchy with that idea? Privileging. People who are creating those rules, um, silencing any kind of dissent, like this is a big part of my understanding.
Cathy: ’cause I do a lot of, you know, reading about cults and all that kind of thing, as I’ve said before, and you know, the whole idea of we’re not going to go, we’re not going to be empathetic or care about these people because that keeps people from. Going against the leader. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
Cathy: Um, and then discouraging empathy, it just doesn’t cha then you don’t challenge the status quo, right? Sure. So why, um, empathy is good, I think is for more obvious reasons. Um, it’s how we care about people. It’s how we take care about, uh, people. And it’s how we. It. It’s how we build connection. Mm-hmm. Which is why we’re here.
Cathy: Yeah. Like, you know, I have done, I’m sure I, you know, people could challenge me in some ways about their beliefs ’cause everyone has their own. But my belief system is someone who is. Studied a [00:36:00] lot of self-help and psychology and, uh, therapeutic, you know, ways of, um, experiencing the world. And psychoanalytic thought is that we’re here for connection.
Cathy: That’s why we’re here. So with that understanding, being empathetic and tuning into others and supporting them, that’s the whole purpose. So, um, it allows us, and again, you’re not supposed to fix other people’s problems. No. The whole idea is saying, I’m here. You’re not alone. That’s all.
Todd: Feeling with someone is more powerful than fixing them.
Cathy: Correct. Right. But just being there and being like, yep. And this, and, and occasionally I, it depends on the person I’m with, how far I’ll go into like my own story or I’ve been there before, like I have two girlfriends right now who are really going through it with their moms, um, going through it, meaning their moms are, you know, getting hospital care or, uh, one of my friends, you know, her mom’s has dementia.
Cathy: And obviously I’ve experienced these things in my life, um, with my mom and dad. [00:37:00] So I. First of all, listen and hear their story, and then I often say something like, oh, I remember that. You know, when I was in the hospital, or, here’s what we heard, like we can relate our story as long as we’re not trying to make ourselves the center of the story.
Cathy: That’s where people tend to go wrong with this is when they’re sharing of themselves. They’re doing it in a way where they then start to. You know, say elevate their, elevate their story above the person who’s sharing.
Todd: Well, and it’s a tricky balance. I’ve shared this story a few times, uh, but one of my friends is a police officer and he had a really bad day at work and I said something, and this is the opposite extreme.
Todd: I’d be like, oh dude, I can’t even imagine that. Right. That’s not helpful, is not a good thing. So you don’t wanna be so in it, in that you’re telling all your, now all of a sudden becomes about you. And at the same time, you don’t want to completely separate yourself from it like I did that day with my friend.
Cathy: Well in, in Brene Brown’s research about empathy, ’cause lots of people have done research, she’s just one of them. She says that what you just said was sympathy.
Mm. [00:38:00]
Cathy: So she differentiates empathy and sympathy. And sympathy is where you stand outside of it. Yep.
That’s right.
Cathy: And you do like a woo, you know, I can’t even imagine that happening.
Cathy: Or, oh, I wouldn’t know what to do. Or, you know, God bless you or bless your heart. Like it’s like so separate. That that person actually ends up feeling more
Todd: alone. The question is why do we call ’em sympathy cards? ’cause it doesn’t seem like a lot of good things happen from sympathy.
Cathy: Yeah. Well, and interesting, these people who, the, the authors that I was talking about before who write about sympathy or empathy being a problem, they think sympathy is the right thing to do, which is stand outside of it so you don’t get sucked in.
Cathy: Yeah. So the, the issue we have here, and this is an issue with all sorts of topics, is semantics. Yep. What do we mean? By these words. And I really do tend to understanding all of Brene Brown’s, um, research. ’cause her research is built on other people’s research. It’s not like it’s brand new. It’s that sym sympathy is too external.
Cathy: Yeah. And sending a sympathy card is lovely, [00:39:00] but you know, it’s a kind of an interesting, um, oftentimes says things that’s not very helpful. It’s not your writing and it keeps you from actually having to touch. The pain, you know,
Todd: my, uh, and I’m not saying I’m right, but you know, we, we read, we did a lot of Brene work and we sure did read the books and watched the videos and my understanding of.
Todd: Sympathy in a nutshell is me saying to somebody, it sucks to be you, basically. Like that’s what sympathy is. I think that’s a, so anyways,
Cathy: and empathy is feeling with someone not taking on someone’s pain. It’s about feeling with them. So you, it’s a deep listening. There’s some, there’s some vulnerability in it because you’re willing to let.
Cathy: Down a little bit and be like, I’m here with you. Mm-hmm. And not try and keep this like, you know, I don’t, I don’t know if the word stoic is right, but like this outsider perspective, you have to connect with someone. You know, A lot of the statements that, um, you know, people talk about with [00:40:00] this kind of empathy is, I don’t, I don’t even know what to say, but I’m glad you told me.
Cathy: Yeah. Or I’m gonna be right here with you, or keep going. I’m listening. Yeah. You know, like. Maintaining your ability to be with that person. Um, and, you know, uh, the sympathy aspect, like you said, you know, you, you had a good description and a lot of times people say things like, well, at least. You didn’t have this experience, or at least this workout.
Cathy: Oh, your mom died. At least your dad’s still alive. Correct. That kind of stuff where you’re trying to like, make it better.
Todd: Remember you’re saying at least that’s not a good idea.
Cathy: Yeah. And her like, you know, Brene Brown’s final conclusion is empathy fuels connection. Sympathy drives disconnection. So again, coming back to why we’re, why empathy is a good thing, um, connection.
Cathy: Like what. This podcast, Zen Parenting Radio. We started this, you know, however many years ago, 15 years ago. All based on connection. Yeah. Like this, when we’re raising our kids. When Todd and I started, our kids [00:41:00] were little, little, little. What was our goal? Always stay connected. Yeah. Did we have disconnection?
Cathy: Of course. Yeah. But then what’s the goal? Find ways to connect in a new way. Yeah. How
Todd: do we reconnect? How do we reconnect? How do we repair a, um, something that we did wrong?
Cathy: Uh, so Richard Rohr, right. Um, repair? No. What is it? His three things?
Todd: Uh, it is, I was gonna say connection, disconnection. Reconnection.
Cathy: Um, close. Yeah. Something like that. We’re almost there. Um, but I, I’ll look it up because it’s that important, but I kind of feel like the, it’s not about always having. Connection. Right. It’s about understanding that that’s what we wanna get back to.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: You know what I mean?
Todd: Um, do I feel complete? Okay. Do you have anything else that you wanna make sure that you shared on this podcast?
Cathy: Um, I, I, I, other than Richard
Todd: Rohrs thing that we can’t remember,
Cathy: I have to do the three things.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: How do I find it?
Todd: I don’t know. You want me to look?
Cathy: Um, while everybody’s [00:42:00] listening? Yeah. While everybody’s listening to it. Oh. Oh. Know that. Oh, here it is. Found it. Sorry. Brains have to be stimulated. Order.
Cathy: Yeah, there you go. Disorder.
Reorder.
Cathy: Reorder. Oh, I’ve put it in every book I’ve written. I just can’t keep it in my head. Yeah, so the whole idea of that we have order. And that things fall apart. We have disorder,
Todd: which is totally normal. Normal.
Cathy: Right. And then we have reorder. You know, we as our kids are growing and changing as we are growing and changing, the whole idea of growth and change is something is shifting.
Yeah.
Cathy: So what we consider to be orderly is not orderly anymore. Yeah. You know, like when our kids, like, I loved the beginning. I loved at the beginning of this year, I had like this sense of, I was like, huh, everything feels kind of normal. ’cause JC was a senior at college. Cameron was going back to a school she had already been to, so there was nothing new.
Cathy: And, um, Skyler was gonna be a junior in high school, so everyone was like, I mean, it was still new. There was gonna be some disorder, but for the most part
Todd: wasn’t [00:43:00] a big transition there year. It wasn’t
Cathy: a huge transition. Whereas next year, uh, you know, Cameron or, uh, Skyler’s gonna be a senior JC just graduated.
Cathy: Cameron’s gonna have a little more time, but there’s like. When that change is coming, I can feel it. Yeah. And it’s normal, but I have to put a lot of my attention toward reorder. Yeah. Like, how do I find a way to reconnect? How do I find a way to, you know, make sure that everybody’s doing okay. Um, let me just make sure that there’s nothing else I wanna say, Todd.
Cathy: Alright, babe. I don’t think so. I think that we’re good. So empathy, you guys, it’s a good thing. Yeah. Um, obviously there are, we don’t wanna get caught in the quicksand. We’ll take that as good advice. We don’t wanna go down. The hole with people. But if we can maintain a sense of ourselves and support the people we love, um, there’s nothing more beautiful.
Todd: And I want to say thank you to Jeremy Kraft. He’s a bald head of beauty. He’s a general contractor. He does a lot of painting and remodeling in the Chicagoland area. If you’re thinking about doing anything and you happen to live in the Chicagoland area, give him a call. 6 3 0 9 5 [00:44:00] 6 1800, and his website is avid code.net.
Todd: Keep trucking. See you guys next Tuesday. Bye.
Round two. Change a little bit. And change a little bit. Pretty pleasant.
