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Todd: Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is episode number 806. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s well being is a parent’s self understanding. Um, we’ve got a few things to go over today, but the main piece is we’re going to comment on your sub stack titled not tuning out, just gauging in a different way.
Cathy: Yeah, engaging in a different way. I think this is the conversation that I’m having with. the majority of people in my life is, um, if it be about things going on in the world or things going on in your family or just things going on in your own [00:01:00] life, whatever they may be. Um, we kind of get this binary vibe that we’re either totally tuned in or totally tuned out.
And there’s a gray in the middle there, um, where we can actually still be engaged but not So it’s the to the detriment of our health.
Todd: There you go. Uh, but first I want to say hi to a few new team Zen members. Uh, Team Zen is a community that we, Kathy and I, created a long time ago. And we get on Zoom with, um, all the community, uh, a few times a month.
If you’re interested. Click on the link, but our new members are, uh, Anne from Chicago, Kelly from Western Springs, and Ami from Texas. I think I may have mentioned Ami before, but in case I didn’t, hi Ami, so glad you’re here.
Cathy: We still don’t do a great job with that. Because you just said we get on with them two times a year.
Get
Todd: on two times a year? Two times
Cathy: a month.
Todd: Well, that’s one of the things that we do.
Cathy: Well, I think the best thing to say is that we have an app. For this group, so it’s like, if you join teams, then [00:02:00] the 1st thing you do is get an email saying, join this app and then you have access to everything that Todd and I do.
We do do a talk a live talk every month. Um, we also have a women’s group that I do every month. So there is a lot of live activity, but there’s also just a lot of resources and connection and community. That’s that’s
Todd: what I meant to say. Um, so, but first, um, I haven’t shared this with you, sweetie. I thought it’d be interesting.
Okay. Just to kind of start out. I hope so. I don’t know where I found it. Uh, we finally know what it takes to be the family favorite. And I’m just gonna read this paragraph. Okay. Since the dawn of time, parents have claimed that they don’t play favorites with their children, but a new study published yesterday by the APA, that’s the American Psychological Association, is finally calling them out.
Researchers analyzed data from more than 19, 000 participants and found that parents tend to favor their daughters. Okay. Eldest [00:03:00] children. Okay. And more conscientious kids. Instead of directly asking parents to name their favorite, because they obviously would never fess up, the researchers asked children who they believe their parents favored.
The findings suggest it might simply come down to which child is easier to parent.
Cathy: Hmm. Interesting. Well. Um,
Todd: I’m a little surprised that they favor their daughters. I kind of figured and this is not even anecdotal. This is just something off the top of my head. I have heard so many times when we, when you and I go out and talk to parents that they go, my son so easy and my daughter so emotional and I would feel like that would contradict what this APA study would say.
So that’s my first kind of, I don’t know. Well,
Cathy: I think that you’re trying to correlate that’s a child who’s easy as your favorite and really a child who is more emotive and shares more, you’re going to feel more connected to. So if you have a [00:04:00] kid who doesn’t tell you anything and they’re like, I’m fine, I’m fine, I’m fine.
You may be like, that’s nice. For my parenting world, but I don’t know you very well,
Todd: that’s true, except except for the fact that the last sentences, the findings suggest it might simply come down to which child is easier to parent, right?
Cathy: Well, and there’s a difference between not being and again, it’s all these, you know, it’s like the difference between saying my kids not emotional or they’re, um, they’re less, uh, volatile and who’s easier.
Like you can have a kid who you’re like, Hey, will you pick up this for me today? Um, you know, when you’re coming home from school, Oh, sure. No problem. Or I’ve already made my better, you know, the kid who’s more compliant versus is. So I think there’s a lot of different things.
Todd: There’s a rebel in the family.
I think the odds of a parent, you know, if you’ve injected some truth serum into their blood stream and said, is this Kid, your favorite be like, no, this kid just drives me crazy because he or she is a rebel and is always making my life more difficult.
Cathy: Well, [00:05:00] and I, you know, I don’t believe in favorites and the word that, um, they’re just, they’re using the word favorite to say the kid who does the most for you as a parent or the kid who’s less rebellious, like you said, is your favorite.
But again, don’t you feel like that can be different depending on the day? Like I think that when I look at my three children, what I see are their strengths and their challenges and the things that may, you know, poke at me where I get annoyed about it and the things that I’m so grateful for. And it’s all different depending on the person.
So when you see like a whole picture of somebody. It’s hard to be like, Oh, I like this person over another person, you know, I mean, I, I don’t like right when you started talking about that. I could see all three of our girls and I’m like, well, if you see him from every angle, you can’t, you don’t like one over the other.
They all have different skills, talent and, and, you know, it’s kind of gross. To even say that you would say it because you know, I don’t [00:06:00] and I don’t believe in it even people who say things like, well, this is my favorite kid. It’s based on exactly what you just said. The most the kid who’s making me feel good about myself.
Todd: The one who’s giving me the least amount of headaches.
Cathy: I actually saw I read something that I meant to send you the other night. And it’s about that. It was about being a golden child and that the truth about being a. Golden child is that you’re not, you know, we have our own definitions, depending on your family, what that means.
And I know you have your own definition, but that really you aren’t the golden child. You’re just the one who makes your parents feel good about themselves.
Right.
Cathy: Right.
Yeah.
Cathy: So it’s not necessarily because of what you’re doing in your life or that you are a better person. It’s that the way that you interact with your parents, you make your parents feel good.
If it be about their parenting or about themselves. Yeah.
Todd: You know, but instead they, uh, cause that was my nickname and I think it was probably came from my siblings instead of my parents. [00:07:00]
Cathy: Uh, you’re both your parents. I mean, they might not have used that word, but they definitely both have said things to the effect,
Todd: right?
Well, it’s because, you know, you
Cathy: know, well, no, I think it’s because you I’m just doing things to make them feel good,
Todd: right? Oh, and it’s just easier for them to say, Oh, Todd, Todd was the golden child when in fact, what they mean is I liked myself most when I had to interact with this kid because he gave me less, less problem.
And
Cathy: when I said, Hey, go get me a donut. He did. And when I said, Hey, you know, will you do this for me? You did like you were, you were compliant, compliant. Um, and I also think that the problem with it, which we’ve discussed before, is that when you don’t want to agree. Or when you do have a different opinion, it’s more shocking to the parents if you are the golden child, there’s more.
This doesn’t quite fit,
Todd: but Oh, it fits sweetie. No, it [00:08:00] fits because it has gold in it,
Cathy: right?
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: I could just see, like, Googling, what song has the word gold in
Todd: it? Sweetie, I didn’t Google it. I asked you at GPT.
Cathy: You should have put in the song by Jill Scott called Golden. That’s a great song.
Todd: Okay, well maybe I’ll do that.
Yeah. Jill Scott? Never heard of her.
Cathy: Oh, she’s great. R& B singer. She’s awesome. Actress.
Todd: What’s she in?
Cathy: She was in all of Tyler Perry’s movies. And I used to love Tyler Perry’s movies. I haven’t seen one recently, but when they were on TV, I used to watch them all the time.
Todd: Never heard of this song.
Cathy: Well, I had most of the songs that I bring up, you’ve never heard of. I’ve learned that now. See, before I used to say, you know it.
Todd: Right. I don’t.
Cathy: But you don’t. Let’s go know Jill Scott.
Todd: So quick, um, I forget the name of the guy who writes this newsletter. It’s called The Good Good Good Newsletter.
And in a, in a, in a time when we can all use some [00:09:00] good news, um, I’m not going to go over three or four that I, Um, outline, but I’ll just say this first one.
Cathy: Wait, say what you said. I’m not going to have like four different
Todd: ones and that’s too many. Okay. So I’m just going to say this first one. Okay. You ever heard of getting Travis Kelsey, sweetie?
Yeah. He transformed a 3. 3 million mansion into transitional housing for the homeless youth. I saw that earlier this year, NFL star, Kelsey purchased this. Uh, mansion, it’s not for himself though, Kelsey transformed it, uh, blah, blah, blah, whatever. And now Kansas City Chiefs Tight End has officially donated the house to Foster Love, a non profit organization that supports children and young adults navigating the foster care system.
So bless you, Travis. Yeah. Thank you.
Cathy: I think, you know, uh, and again, I don’t know how all these things work when you have millions and billions of dollars, I don’t understand how it gets allocated and what you have to do. If I were one of those people, instead of trying to, uh, go out there and try and get all the power in the world, I [00:10:00] would try and create things that were very literal like that instead of just kind of like maybe I would do like what Mackenzie Scott does where you donate a big amount of money to a group that’s already really doing good work, but I would also in my own community want to like do that.
Like, here’s a home and let’s make sure that. Okay. You know, maybe this group is going to run it. You know, I know there’s a lot of logistics, but I’d want to do really literal things where here’s a thing I created. Here’s a school. Um, I w what was I just reading? Somebody else just did this. Oh, I can’t remember.
But do you know what I mean? Like, instead of just being like, I’m going to filter money this way, I feel like I want to make something. Yeah. I want to do some
Todd: tangible. That you can see.
Cathy: Yeah, that you can see and that you can maybe be able to kind of watch over and see how it goes and maybe, you know, stay on the board and hire people and, um, grow it.
Like, I think that would be so, um, rewarding.
Todd: I’m going to go over one more. Uh huh. And then we’re going to get into the guts of the show. Okay. Virginia lawmakers [00:11:00] unanimously passed a bill to educate the public about common menstrual disorders like endometriosis and PCOS.
Cathy: How are they going to do that?
Todd: I don’t know.
I mean, who
Cathy: did that?
Todd: The Virginia lawmakers.
Cathy: Okay. I think that’s amazing. Like no judgment. That’s not why I’m asking those questions. I’m just curious. Like what they’re how they’re going to get that information out there. Like, will they make it part of sex education for kids in the school system? Will it be part of a health initiative?
Will it be just Put on their social media. Like what does that mean?
Todd: Uh, yeah. And I don’t know, but we can go to good, good, good dot co and sign up for his newsletter. It’s really good.
Cathy: You know, I’m so glad because you know how sometimes you tell me that when I’m reading things or hearing things, I just assume everybody else is hearing them.
Yeah. Well, I was, um, You know, I talk a lot about menopause and we’ve been reading a lot about menopause. You and I both, like you’ve been really kind of, you know, if not trying to engage the conversation, being a conversationalist with me about the changes that happen with menopause. And I was just talking to my girlfriend this [00:12:00] weekend who is in perimenopause and she was saying she just went to her doctor.
And her doctor said that he doesn’t rec, or he or she, I don’t know if it’s male or female, doesn’t recommend HRT for her, which is hormone replacement therapy, because her mom passed from breast cancer. And I kind of was like, wait a second, like, don’t we know as a culture now that that is a debunked thing?
That, that breast cancer, like that HRT, you know, that study that came out before, um, that said it causes breast cancer, that they actually like ripped that apart and figured out that maybe there’s a higher incident if it looks like a very specific way that really in the big picture, it does more good than negative.
And she and I talked about it. She’s gonna maybe, you know, get a second opinion, but I sometimes think, even, I think that I’m getting all this information so everybody is, and I realize that there is even doctors who are still kind of going off of an old study,
Todd: you
Cathy: know?
Todd: Well, and, um, I [00:13:00] did read a little bit of it, and I can’t quote it because I can’t find it, but it said something to the fact of most doctors, when they’re going through medical school, receive zero.
Correct. Education about good chunk of patients that they’ll deal with are women in menopause.
Cathy: Right. I was listening to Dr. Mary Claire on the Goop podcast last week. She did. She’s got a really big presence. She wrote the, I think her book’s called The New Menopause or look up Dr. Mary Claire and I can’t remember because I have so many menopause books.
I don’t know which one is hers. Um, but she, uh, she’s also going to be on Oprah in the next couple of weeks. Oprah did a round table about menopause. Um, but she said something to the effect of, what did you just say to me? I’m losing my, I’m losing my train of thought.
Todd: Uh, that doctors don’t get any education.
Cathy: She was saying that, um, It when she was in med school, they had like a one day workshop about it, you know, like, and if she goes into like PubMed where all [00:14:00] the, um, you know, published research is like if you go into PubMed, you can read about all the research that’s been done because for some reason we have all this research and we don’t utilize it.
And so like people have to go in and find it. And she was just saying that, like, there’s millions and millions and millions of articles and research about pregnancy, postpartum, infertility, but there’s only, like, 69, 000, um, things around menopause, which you may think sound like a lot, but I’m talking millions in the other categories.
Is the
Todd: book called The New Menopause, Navigating Your Path Through Hormonal Change with Purpose and Power? Is it Mary Claire Haver? Yes,
Cathy: Mary Claire Haver.
Todd: Okay, there you go.
Cathy: Yeah, so, you know, we just throw that out there. Again, um, This is for women, first of all, to advocate for their own needs and make sure that they are, if they are experiencing changes emotionally, anxiety, joint pain, um, heart palpitations, um, any issues with sex, uh, libido or pain or, or any of those things [00:15:00] that, you know, even my friend had tinnitus and that’s connected to, um, menopause, all these things are connected.
And so, Having that information and realizing that it’s not all you like I was talking about how like Todd and I sometimes, um, we compete about things just for fun and that, you know, you go to the doctor, I go to the doctor, we get blood work done and sometimes we compare not like in a, you know, but we’ll just talk about how well our blood is doing and mine changes more because like my cholesterol goes up and down and up and down and it’s and it’s not about because I eat.
Yeah. like less healthy than Todd. I think I actually eat more healthy than Todd. And
Todd: there’s no thing. Yeah. Do we eat more healthy?
Cathy: And, but my cholesterol is higher, but it’s not because. I’m not doing good things. It’s, it’s connected to menopause and there are things I can do and I figure that out, but we, I think sometimes we are very self blaming.
Like what am I doing wrong? Not recognizing that there are things going on with you that have [00:16:00] not been studied or are just being studied for the first time. And we have to advocate for ourselves. podcasts, asking our doctor or whatever. If our doctor doesn’t seem to have the information finding specialists, which is such a pain.
I mean, like, even when I’m finding myself saying this, when I hear people say this, I get so frustrated. Right. I’m like, Oh, I have to jump through all these hoops. But I do appreciate you being informed as well, Todd, because I think it helps for partners to understand. Oh,
yeah.
Cathy: What’s going on with their, if they are married to a woman, um, how their body’s changing and, and how we can work together to solve these things.
Todd: Seek first to understand then to be understood. Um, okay, so you wrote a sub stack and it was called not tuning out, just engaging differently. Would it be, uh, stupid to, to share this Mary Oliver poem? No, go ahead. So, you’ve, and you’ve had this poem, it’s been in your stratosphere for a long time, right?
Cathy: Yeah, well if you look through, like, what I joked about in the first [00:17:00] paragraph is, if you look through my photos, I’ve screenshot the poem, like, Once a month for like years
Todd: So she says I worried a lot.
Will the garden grow? Will the rivers flow in the right direction? Will the earth turn as it was taught and if not, how shall I correct it? Was I right? Was I wrong? Will I be forgiven? Can I do better? Will I ever be able to sing? Even the sparrows can do it and I am well hopeless Is my eyesight fading or am I just imagining it?
Am I going to get rheumatoid rheumatism rheumatoid tism lockjaw and dementia? Finally I saw that worrying had come to nothing, and gave it up, and took my old body, and went out into the morning and sang.
Cathy: Yes. I mean, I just, if that’s not my life, like every time I read it, I’m like, oh, there, there I am. Like, because the whole poem, meaning that my first thought is the existential crisis of the world.
Will things keep moving as [00:18:00] they should? Will people keep taking care of each other? Then the focus is on myself, what I haven’t done, what I should be doing, why I should be better. And then my focus is on my health. You know, will I, you know, will I be okay? Um, you know, are, is my body healthy enough? Will I be able to survive?
And then, you know, the last paragraph or the last stanza of the poem is like, then I realized I’m not doing anything. This worry is not cause, is not creating change. And so I’m going to go outside and sing. Now, one of the most important parts about that poem, read that last stanza again. And gave it up.
Todd: And took my old body No, go back before that. And gave it up. Uh, finally I saw that worrying had come to nothing? Yep. And above that is my eyesight? Start
Cathy: there, finally.
Todd: Okay, finally I saw that worrying had come to nothing. And gave it up and took my old body and went out in the morning and say,
Cathy: [00:19:00] right. So it’s like, I think sometimes then we read that and we were like, okay, so she figured out that she was going to stop worrying for the rest of her life.
No, it means that every time that one of those things in the poem, it comes to her again, where she starts to worry. She goes through a process. It could be, you know, historically, maybe it took weeks and months, but then it starts to be more like a day or an hour or five minutes. And she realizes I’m not going to do this again.
I’m going to go out and sing. So I think that’s something that, again, this binary where you either worry or you don’t, there’s no such thing, everybody worries, but how long do you stay in that cycle of worry and, and do you practice recognizing my favorite feeling in the world? Is when I realize I don’t have to worry and that doesn’t keep me from worrying the next day,
Todd: right?
Cathy: Or the next hour,
Todd: but you have a moment where you’re when you see it from a different viewpoint. And that viewpoint is this isn’t [00:20:00] necessary or helpful.
Cathy: And it’s a very hard earned viewpoint, like, I think that that’s why a lot of people go to therapy is to find that viewpoint within themselves. And when I say viewpoint, maybe it’s stronger than that.
Find that part of themselves, you know, internal family systems. Find that part that realizes it’s not worth it. Because you can’t talk yourself out of worry. You can’t scold yourself or shame yourself out of worry. You have to have a, there’s a trust inside you where you’re like, Oh, I’ve done this before.
I’ve processed through this. I’ve had breakthroughs. I have. journaled about this and realized it’s not necessary. I have, you know, that’s where I am as I’ve done this so many times that I trust my
Todd: history. Do you know who doesn’t do that? Who? Uh, the guy from White Lotus last night that’s taking the pills, stealing the pills from his wife.
What is his character? Okay.
Cathy: Uh, Mr. Rat, Ratliff. It’s not Ratcliffe. It’s Mr. Ratliff. And I think his name. What’s his name?
Todd: I don’t know, but the bottom line is he’s not, [00:21:00] he’s got plenty to worry about, uh, and he’s numbing out to pills. He’s,
Cathy: he gave some full frontal last night. And a
Todd: lot of whiskey, too.
Cathy: I know, I don’t know how that man’s standing.
Like, honestly, I was, not only was he taking benzos, but he was also Drinking like shots of whiskey, like he had like
Todd: four or five of them. So you say in your sub stack that you have voices both in your head and people say this to you, that you’re doing it wrong. Correct. That you’ve got to be more afraid.
Um, And that’s what was the genesis of you writing this, right?
Cathy: Yeah, well, I think that it starts with, um, you know, I always like to do the macro and micro, right? So the macro of staying informed is, of course, our world and our politics. Um, staying informed in the, you know, global picture, the United States, our country, our state, whatever.
And being concerned. About the things that we’re seeing and having gone through this experience before it feels very [00:22:00] repetitious. It feels very black mirror. It’s like, are we doing this again? Um, and realizing that. What does it mean to stay informed enough? Okay. And then in our families, it’s the same way.
Like, You know, as parents, we want to stay informed, but it’s like, how informed do we need to be?
Todd: Yeah, there’s a certain amount that is healthy, and there’s, and then you get to a point where it’s completely unhealthy.
Cathy: Right, and it’s also not good for your relationship with your kids. Like if you are, You know, trying to find out more information about them or asking other parents or God forbid reading their journals or reading whatever.
It’s too much information. You don’t need to be that informed or even reading their texts and getting into their personal lives. Like there is a part of being informed about your kid and also letting them have their own life. I
Todd: remember calling my dad out. This is like 30, 40 years ago. Because I’m 52 and it there was something about he was like snooping.
I don’t know if it was like my stuff or my sister’s stuff for my [00:23:00] brother’s stuff. And he said, Todd, when you have when you have kids of yourself, you’ll understand. And it was the way he saw it was through the lens of safety, like, hey, is is my. son or daughter underage drinking or is my son or daughter doing something illegal or illicit and that for him justified this snooping and that as a 52 year old man who has a daughter who’s almost 22.
She can
Cathy: be 22 in two weeks.
Todd: Um, it’s at the. At the cost of the relationship,
Cathy: well, and I, I want to, there’s
Todd: always, there’s always special circumstances, you know, for some reason I got millennia in my mind and he’s an adult, but you know, if somebody strung out on drugs, you have to take certain things into account to, to do things a little bit differently than typical, that’s all.
Cathy: Well, and I would question, you know, I’ll use your dad in this instance, he’s telling you it’s for safety, but really he’s doing it for himself because he wants to [00:24:00] calm his own. Nervous system. So he’s trying to regulate himself through going through your information now. He will frame it in. I’m doing it to keep you safe.
But what is how is he keeping you safe? You know, like what’s now? He may say, well, I happen to find this magic information and I got to my kid just in time before they made this mistake. But that’s kind of a movie. I don’t really know. You know, I’ve worked with families now, what, 20 something years, and I don’t have a story, a real life story like that, that anyone has ever told me, where they’ve been like, if I hadn’t found this, now people have reframed, and this hair is driving me crazy, people have reframed their stories to make it seem that way, but the truth is, is that, um, A lot of times when we’re snooping, we’re trying to calm our own, you know,
Todd: call it for what it is.
Yeah.
Cathy: Yeah. You’re looking at other people’s stuff. And to your point, you are now you can have an agreement with your kid. Like one of our agreements when our girls had [00:25:00] our phone, their phones early is the phone is ours. The phone that we’re giving you, we pay for, we own. And so if we needed that phone back for some other reason, or if you were not utilizing the phone in the right way, that would be ours again.
And we could see it like. Basically know that if you are, you know, that that phone is not just yours, that’s, you know, there are some. Oh, and
Todd: it’s nice that we paid for it because we can say that with integrity.
Cathy: Correct. Well, you know, we say the same thing with cars, you know. Um, so there is a conversation or just like an agreement about, um, you know, Instagram that you can get on Instagram, but I’m going to follow you.
You know, there’s agreements you can have upfront. That’s different. But if you are actually. Snooping behind their back to get information. Not a good idea. It’s just, in what relationship is that helpful? Like, there’s no relationship where it’s like, well, I had to do it. Like, partners shouldn’t be doing that with each other.
If you’re feeling the need to snoop in your partner’s [00:26:00] stuff, there needs to be a conversation. Well, and it’s
Todd: so weird, for some reason, I’m thinking of Euphoria and how, uh, what is Zendaya’s character’s name? Do you remember? Um, yeah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Guarantee it is if you pee in this cup,
Cathy: I think I would push back on that one though, because that was part of the protocol of her going through treatment.
And then if she was going to come home, it wasn’t like she, cause I have friends whose children have been in treatment for addiction. And when they came home, that was part of the protocol with the therapist, you
Todd: have to do a drug test at home. So, so it’s, so what you’re saying is, it’s not a parent child agreement.
It’s a, it’s a protocol. It’s a protocol based on the recovery What’s her name? Rue, there you go.
Cathy: And Rue was off the [00:27:00] rails. I mean, Euphoria is a fictional show, but she was also addicted to alcohol, pills, everything. And so her mom’s like, if you’re going to live here, you know, she went to treatment. If you’re going to live here, this is an agreement we have to have that.
That is based on, again, it’s almost like the phone thing. Like we’re agreeing to this as a team that’s different because you’re right. She doesn’t trust her. You know, I mean, because you’re like, and she has
Todd: every reason to not trust her. Correct. She’s been lying for 10 out of 10, the last 10 times.
Cathy: Correct.
And so there’s a lot of like room in there for your specific, but I think anytime we’re trying to. I actually heard something, um, on Dax’s podcast a couple weeks ago. It was Nikki Glaser was on his podcast and I shared this with you when we were in Santa Monica. Um, that she was talking about that she still smokes weed occasionally and that her boyfriend or her partner.
Um, doesn’t really know this, you know, she’s talking about it on a big podcast, but she doesn’t listen to that podcast. Well, [00:28:00] I think they’ve had discussions about it, but she hasn’t really shared with them how much she does smoke weed or use weed. And she said, you know, and Dax was kind of given her all this advice as he does.
And then she kind of threw it back at him. She’s like, well, what, what do you have in your mouth, buddy? And he’s like, I’m, I got a. Toothpick that has nicotine in it. And she’s like, well, you’re using a substance. He’s like, yeah, but I’m using it out in the open. My wife knows I don’t feel shame for using it.
And it’s something that I don’t feel secretive about. And, you know, it really kind of hit her like, Oh, I see. Like she felt bad about using weed because she felt the need to make it a secret and she had some kind of shame around it. And then she was like, he wouldn’t understand, but really. It was internal.
She didn’t feel good about it. Yeah.
Todd: And, uh, the minute, not all, not everything, but almost everything turns secret. That’s a good indicator that something needs to be looked at.
Cathy: And [00:29:00] that’s kind of where I’m going, bringing that back full circle to when we’re sneaking around in our kids rooms is when we’re doing something secret that we know we probably shouldn’t be doing it out in the open conversation.
Exactly. Bring it say. I’m concerned about something, let’s, let’s talk about this. And then people say, but then my kid will hide it more. Well, maybe you’ve also opened up a line of communication that wouldn’t have been there before. Right. Because if you’re going to snoop and find something, you’re going to have to tell them, I found something.
Right. They’re going to say, how’d you find it?
Todd: Well, that’s like. Back in the old days when we used to talk about our younger kids and we know that they did something. Yes, like lied. But instead we ask them, we test them to see if they’re going to tell the truth again. If you know that they broke the window, just say, I know you broke the window.
You don’t say. Who broke the window or did you break the window? If you know it, just say it. Anyway, you’re
Cathy: spinning them out. Like you’re, you’re putting them, you’re, you’re not recognizing their human nature in that they want to be defensive and protect themselves. And so you’re putting them into, like Todd [00:30:00] said, you’re backing them into a corner versus.
I know this happened. Let’s talk through how it happened and what we can do next.
Todd: Um, I feel like I want to read the last paragraph in your sub stack and then go to the notes that you sent to me. Are you good with that? Absolutely. So the last paragraph, it’s short. Worry can feel like engagement, but it’s not action.
Outrage can feel like purpose, but without understanding and, and. Any direction it consumes rather than creates change.
Cathy: I don’t think you read that correctly.
Todd: Okay. Let me try it again. Outrage can feel like purpose, but without understanding and direction, it consumes rather than creates change.
Cathy: Yeah. So my point is, is that outrage, you know, especially performative outrage.
If you, there’s. I’m all for rage, you know, meaning like when we feel rage, there’s a message behind it. We have to understand it and hopefully we can reign it and utilize it and it can make us more powerful. I’m all in. But if we don’t understand it, if we don’t, if we don’t look at it and recognize what we can do productively, it just [00:31:00] burns us out.
Like feeling outrage all day long just burns us out. And then, um, the first one worry. Is that what I said at the beginning of the paragraph? Worry can feel like engagement. Worry can feel like engagement. Meaning, I’m going to worry about this. That means I’m engaged. But again, you’re just burning yourself out.
That’s not engagement. So, the whole point of that sub stack, which if you want to get my sub stack, if you scroll below, Todd will have a link to it. It’s free. Jump in while it’s free. And I write about these things. That we talk about on the show. Sometimes I like expand the conversation or begin the conversation and we keep having it here But this one was I wrote this specifically because I’d had a women’s group last week and we talked a little bit about this and You know One of the women in the group said you know that she’s concerned that people are tuning out that she’s hearing that more people are watching less news or being Less engaged and [00:32:00] I, I, we kind of created a discussion around there is tuning out where you’re numbing out or doing what Ratcliffe is doing and the White Lotus where you’re just not looking at all at what you’ve done.
And then there’s also where you’re realizing I am going to look at things, but I’m going to do it in a way that doesn’t burn me out. I’m going to do this in a way where I don’t self harm and that’s what I recommend. I think that we can learn from previous instances of. Getting burned out. And we all know that, you know, one of the biggest things I do with my, um, students, my social work students is we focus on burnout because social work has such a high level of burnout.
So I focus A significant majority of my semester on their own self care first as college students, but then letting them know that this self care practice that they have as students, they have to maintain when they become social workers or else they’re going to leave the field. Okay, so that’s professional.
Now, let’s bring [00:33:00] that into parenthood. Let’s bring that into being a citizen of our country like you have to practice some self care and I know that word gets over utilized and you know, we start to misunderstand what it means. But that’s what we’re going to talk about right here.
Todd: So, um, you have these, um, I guess.
bullet points. Yeah. Points. Yeah. How to stay informed without burning out. Is that what we’re about to go through? All right. So why don’t you go ahead and get started?
Cathy: Well, the first one we, you know, is a pretty obvious one about setting boundaries around it. You know, some of the things that, um, I try not to be too rigid about.
I’m only going to look at social media for 10 minutes because I don’t like, I don’t love rules because rules make me feel like I’m in school, but I do have. Thoughts about, okay, it may not be literally like I’m going to set an alarm, but I am going to be like, I have something at 10 and it seems like I have 20 minutes left.
So then I’m going to scroll because I know there’s an end to it. I’m setting some boundaries around it without being too rigid. That’s what works for me. Well, and,
Todd: uh, to just [00:34:00] kind of decide that you’re going to stop after 10 minutes without having an actual reminder. Um, so set an alarm on your phone.
Cathy: I know, I, it, but I don’t love that.
That’s fine. That’s my
Todd: point. You don’t.
Cathy: Yes. I,
Todd: I can’t just decide. I need something to interrupt me.
Cathy: Got it. So you weren’t telling me to do that. No, no, no, no. You were just saying that’s it. Of course not. Yeah. I get, you’re right. Cause Skylar does that and she has no problem with it. She sets her alarm. I just get a little bit anxious about it.
Like how many minutes? Drive left for
you. Okay.
Cathy: And also another boundary is just thinking about what you look at first thing in the morning and first thing at night. Like for me, this is just me. Um, I am someone who, when I wake up in the morning, I want to listen to something that is. Engaging my more spiritual place or my more emotional place like I want to, you know, maybe I listened to Glennon’s podcast or there happens to be somebody on, um, Dax’s podcast.
That’s, you know, interesting or, you know, a thought leader that he’s interviewing or all [00:35:00] these other podcasts that I listened to, um. And I, I, I, it’s something thought provoking that helps me emotionally. Okay. It makes me, it expands my thinking. Midday, I may listen to a true crime podcast. If I am cleaning the house, I may listen to something that’s a little more, you know, just enjoyable, kind of like, You know, I’m just listening to this because it’s like engaging me, but I don’t listen to that at night.
Todd: Right.
Cathy: Okay. So it’s like, I, these are just my, I just have to be thoughtful personally. And
Todd: I think that’s what you’re saying is just be thoughtful on how you navigate this. Correct. What’s next?
Cathy: I’m moving my hair. Um, the next one is I, I mean, big language diversify media types, but that just means like, Um, you know, probably the thing I do the most these days is listen to a podcast or an audio book.
I do a lot of listening because I’m, I’m active, I’m doing, you know, I’m going somewhere, I’m cleaning or I’m dropping things off or I’m running errands. So it’s easy to listen to, you know, [00:36:00] to be auditory. But I also like to make sure I have a book. That I’m interested in, so if I’m sitting down and my choices are scrolling my phone or reading a book, um, and it’s hard for me to find books.
I like, like, I get so excited when I find a good book, you know, that makes one of us because I’m just going to plow right through it, you know, because I’m like, I haven’t had this in so long. I’m reading one right now because we have a guest in a few weeks and she’s, she wrote a book. Um, so. You know, maybe doing some podcasts.
Maybe Todd likes YouTube. He likes to go look at videos.
Todd: Yeah. If you look at my YouTube feed, it’s, um, that Rick Bay Beato. Yes. Who’s a really talented musician and has really good interviews. They were, he was interviewing Robbie Krieger and John Densmore from the doors last night. So I watched an hour and a half interview with those guys.
Cause I love the doors. Um, a lot of Neil deGrasse Tyson, a lot of Nate Bragatsky. Bragatsky, um, just, uh, I I’m kind of. Getting sick of my feet. I wish I could just wipe my feet [00:37:00] clean and start over.
Cathy: You can just stop following them.
Todd: But I don’t even think I’m following them. Oh,
Cathy: you’re not? No. Just
Todd: your algorithm?
So anyways. Yeah.
Cathy: So basically it’s just diversifying your media. Like the other thing I love to do, um, to your point about Rick, uh, Beato, is that how you say it? I think it’s Beato. Beato. Is that I love entertainment podcasts. So I, I listened to the Vanity Fair podcast. I listened to all the Ringer podcasts and I tend to listen to those before bed.
You know, they’re like light, they’re fluffy, they’re pop culture. And I love, or if I’m watching a TV show, I like to watch, I like to listen to the podcast that goes with the TV show. So it’s just having, you know, if we’re going to listen to the news, if we are going to stay informed, um, choosing the time of day you’re going to look at it.
Maybe first thing in the morning is not a good Decision or, you know, maybe first thing before bed is gonna ruin your dreams. So, um, figure out what works. Yeah, look midday. Uh, so anyway,
Todd: good enough knowledge.
Cathy: I like good enough. I like that language. Um, you know, there’s, [00:38:00] you know, Winnicott, right? That is the one, the therapist who said that we only need to be a good enough parent or a good enough mother and that meant we’re not supposed to be perfect nor should we because we have to demonstrate to our children how to be human beings and I kind of feel the same way about the amount of information that we take in, you know, the good enough knowledge like we don’t need to understand every aspect of an issue.
We just have to have a working knowledge of an issue and then stay curious if people want to inform us. or we’re reading another article, um, sometimes if we have good enough knowledge, we think we have more knowledge than we do. What’s that called? The Dunning Kruger effect? I have no idea. There’s this thing where what they found in research is if you know a lot about something like, like I’ll say something like I know a lot about, um, clinical language and I know a lot about being a therapist and then I know a lot about, um, the world of being a social worker.
I know so much that I realize I know nothing at all. Because I realize it goes round and round and round, [00:39:00] and it’s layered, and it has all this like, these levels to it, and if this happens, then this doesn’t happen. So, I’ve seen enough and experienced enough to know that the, the information is limitless.
But, if I read a book about something, I think, All of a sudden, you know, if it’s about something about pop culture, I think I’m like, like the expert on it because I read one book and that’s, we have to be careful about that because you just have some working knowledge. You don’t really understand it in depth, but good enough means just like having enough knowledge where you feel like I’m tapped in.
So someone mentions. a tariff. You know what it is. You don’t need to understand everything about it, but you’re not coming at it from like, I don’t know anything that’s going on. Um, so does that make sense to you, Todd? Do you do that to good enough knowledge? Oh, for sure.
Todd: I mean, my whole life is that what do I need to get by?
And if there’s something that I really adore, I’ll listen to an hour and a half with the two living members of the doors because that lights me [00:40:00] up. But I, so yeah, just pick what lights you up and then get the base knowledge of the stuff that you just feel like you need to get by.
Cathy: Yeah. I think we all become, uh, if we have a certain, you know, work, if it’d be.
Parenting, we, you know, become experts on it because we’re doing it, at least experts with our own kids. Um, or our line of work, we’re forced to become experts because that’s what we’re doing every day, day in, day out. But these other things, um, maybe we can just limit and just have good enough information.
Todd: What do you got next?
Cathy: Um, the next one is like, you know, Todd brought up. You know, the good, good, good newspaper, which we follow, um, and, you know, we’d follow that because we want to see good news stories alongside the bad news stories. Remember that the news is the 10 worst stories of the day. Todd and I’ve been saying this for 15 years.
It’s the 10 worst stories of the day, the things that are going to get clicks, the things that are going to scare people so they stay engaged. It doesn’t mean they’re not true, it just means they’re not the only thing that happened that day. So you have to try to [00:41:00] figure out where you can find good information to, um, because you have to balance that out or else you, you’re going to walk around thinking the world sucks all the time.
Todd: What’s that Wayne Dyer used to say, like You know, when you squeeze an orange, what comes out an orange, orange juice, orange juice. So if you put negative stories, traumatic stories in your psyche, it, it, nothing else can come out other than that negative stuff. So you got to balance out with the positive.
Cathy: Absolutely. Like, you know, when I hear stories or, you know, about people who just kind of. You know how they walk around the world and do awful things and yell at people and, you know, try and create fights or troll online, like, even though it’s not okay, and they still need to be called out and I just look at them and I’m like, if that’s what’s coming out of you, I can’t imagine what you’re.
Doing to yourself internally because we can’t, you know, that’s why when people are like, oh, they’re a really good person. They just troll online It’s like well in some ways it might be [00:42:00] everybody has, you know, everybody deserves dignity, but they’re miserable Because they’re putting misery out there. If you if they are an orange what comes out is orange juice.
So so Oh, I think the next one about actionable steps. I think something, um, taking actionable steps. What that means to me is that if I’m hearing about something that’s really bothering me. And I know that, you know, I can’t change the laws. I’m not a part of Congress. I can’t vote, you know, all those kind of things, but maybe I can either volunteer somewhere or I can donate some money, um, or I can make, you know, my family more aware of something that’s happening, talk around it.
Talk about it around the dinner table. I can take actionable steps to become aware or to share information, but recognize that I can’t change it. I was having another conversation with my girlfriend yesterday. And she’s, of course, [00:43:00] worried about many things in the world and she’s just overwhelmed by it.
And, you know, this is part of the reason why Todd and I are talking about this because that’s just such a common theme that we hear. People are so overwhelmed. And I get it. Like, I’m there. I’m there. But I also don’t think that’s productive or helpful. I, I think we can take actionable steps and I think we can, you know, there was a march yesterday in Chicago I didn’t even know about, but I got online today and I saw a bunch of my friends were there.
So I was like, Ooh, I got to get active here. And then another girlfriend of mine texted me and said, we have this group that’s getting together to, you know, figure out what we can do in this area and that area and I’m all in. So I can do that. But being overwhelmed or drowned by the news, there’s nothing actionable.
Todd: Sure. What do you got?
Cathy: The next one?
Todd: Yep. Did you want to do the next one? Well, I just don’t, the way I have it, I don’t know what, you have self care and I don’t know what the next one is.
Cathy: Oh, got it. I don’t understand the formatting. I’m sorry, I kind of just typed it in. So, uh, self care. Okay. So. So, you know, self care is a huge [00:44:00] part of what we talk about here.
Um, the word has been hijacked in many ways, but what we’re trying to say is make sure you are recognizing what’s going on in you and knowing maybe that you need to take a day or two and skip big information. If it be in your family and a struggle that’s happening, maybe you need to take a day off. If it’s with the news media and what’s going on in the world, maybe you need to take a day off.
Don’t get yourself to a place where you’re flat on the floor like try and react to it before
Todd: well and Just tune in take a breath notice Oh my god I’m my neck is totally cranking because I’ve been reading news for the last 90 minutes your body will let you know Yeah now I, uh, this is a, I’m a work in progress on this, but I’m trying my best to just kind of like pause and notice because the, the body can send signals and it’s for [00:45:00] somebody who spends a lot of his time in his head, there’s a part of me is like, no, no, it doesn’t.
Uh, my brain is in charge of everything. It’s not your body is actually the first thing to know. Yeah. And then our brain catches up to our body, like if I get stressed because, you know, my kid had a terrible day at school, there’s something’s going to happen in my body if I tune in. I mean, it can’t not.
Cathy: And, and it gives you signals of maybe what you need. Like, I, that’s part of the reason going back to where we were talking about putting an alarm on my phone. Um, what I try and do is kind of notice when I’m starting to get worn out, you know, like sometimes it’s I only have 20 minutes to do this. I’m gonna enjoy it because I don’t think we need to shame ourselves for looking at social media.
That’s how I keep up with entertainment. That’s how I keep up with new books. And it’s it’s just a way that we interact with each other, right? But I also can feel in my body like Todd and I, when you and I go to bed, when you and I go to bed, sometimes we’re both, we’re sometimes looking at something together [00:46:00] on a phone or we’re watching a show or we’re on our own phones and there’s this like, I can feel my system where I’m like looking and then I’m like, okay, I’m ready to take my earphones out.
I’m ready. Like you can feel in your body that you’re shutting down. Now there are times that I’m certain. That I’m anxious and I just want to numb and that’s when I need a little more help where I need to be like I need to do something else to help me deal with this anxiety because I know I’ve spent nights and hours on the phone much longer than I’d like to, but I think to Todd’s point, you can kind of feel When you’re like, okay, this isn’t serving me anymore.
And do we listen? And then what do we do with that? You know, in the blog that I wrote or the sub stack that I wrote, I’m, I say sometimes when I’m sitting on my, you know, I sit in this chair in the family room when I work and sometimes I want to just scroll and instead, could I go just take a walk? really quick and maybe listen to a podcast while I’m doing it.
It’s not that I have to be anti technology, but a walk is better than scrolling for another 30 minutes. For sure. You know, like making a [00:47:00] choice that’s, um, that’s going to feel good in the long run. That’s all.
Todd: Uh, next one. Be mindful of social media.
Cathy: Yeah. You know, going back to social media, I was just saying that I like it because I do get my pop culture fix.
I get my psychology fix. I get my friend fix, you know, seeing what they’re doing. But you also have to remember what social media is and what it’s for. And social media is everyone’s best day, looking their best, except on Tik TOK, when everyone’s crying about their lives, that’s a totally different thing.
Um, but even that is them trying to engage you in their lives. You know, I want you to feel bad. I want you to come in and keep following me. Um, and you have to realize what it is, you know, the whole thing. I feel like we’ve been talking about this for decades now, but the whole thing is meant to keep you there.
Todd: Way out.
Cathy: And so you have to be not a fair fight. Exactly the it. There is anxiety inducing content on social media. You can’t even if you’ve got a pretty good algorithm. [00:48:00] There’s still going to be, you know, it’s going to induce anxiety. So instead of like, Oh, why do I feel this way? It’s like, of course I feel this way.
Yeah. I’ve been scrolling through this, you
Todd: know, which leads to the last one.
Cathy: Yeah. So discernment. Um, one of my favorite words of all time. You know, we’re talking about not tuning out, just engaging differently, and a big part of that is discernment. Do I really need to know this piece? Will this really help me?
Because I wrote a, um, another substack about two or three weeks ago called Flooding the Zone, and I think we talked about it on this show. Flooding the Zone is a tactic used to throw a bunch of information at you at once, and this is done politically, this is done, you know, by our government right now.
We’re going to tell you that. You know, the Gulf of Mexico is going to be the Gulf of America and we’re going to buy Greenland and we’re going to have tariffs and we’re going to take over Canada and all these awful things where you’re so like, you know, like your brain is [00:49:00] spinning and you can’t focus and that’s intentional.
That’s to throw you off and make you be like, okay, I don’t care anymore. And the remedy for that is discernment. Exactly. You don’t just, you don’t need to take in everything. You just maybe have some focus on these are the issues I’m really interested in. I’m really interested in social programs. I’m really interested in women’s groups, agencies, things in women’s health.
I pay a lot of attention to that. But other things, I can’t.
Todd: So, stand guard at the gate of your mind.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: Yeah. I learned that from Tony Robbins. And he probably didn’t come up with it. He probably heard it from somebody else. But that’s what, that’s the bottom line is, only allow into it what you think is going to be useful and helpful.
Cathy: And, you know, sometimes we just need to find new language because when I explain to people what I’m doing that I’m engaging differently, there is a lot of like, oh, but everyone’s tuning out. And it’s like that old way of engagement [00:50:00] of being hyper focused and hyper vigilant. It does not serve us. We are much better off if we are engaged, but also engaged in our own lives, in our own bodies, in our own days, and we know how to take breaks and have boundaries.
Because then we can continue to be creative and make a difference and show up in new ways and do things in our homes. And if we’re completely burned out, I mean, it’s the oldest, you know, conversation in the book. If we have nothing to give, Then we’re not going to, then we can’t do anything. So we’ve got to engage in a new way.
Todd: All right. Um, so I guess that’s about it, right?
Cathy: Yes.
Todd: Um, I want to thank Jeremy Kraft. He’s a bold head of beauty and he does painting and remodeling throughout the Chicagoland area. It’s actually going to be painting my dad’s house a little bit. So that’s avidco. net 6309561800. We’ll catch y’all next week.
Keep talking.
Round two. Change a little [00:51:00] bit. And change a little bit. Pretty pleasant.
