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Todd: Here we go. My name is Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is episode number 805. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s well being is a parent’s self understanding.
Todd: Are you doing all right with your head? Yeah. I just don’t think I
Cathy: can hear you.
Todd: Oh, um, well.
Cathy: Are you looking good on the screen? Are you coming up?
Todd: Sweetie, I’m feeling good. And I’m looking good. Um, so I want to kind of frame out what we’re going to talk about today. And Kathy wrote a blog on her, it’s not a blog, it’s a sub stack.
Todd: You call it a blog. Yeah. It’s not. It’s a sub step, um, and it was called Women’s Safety and the Unseen Burden of Adapting. [00:01:00] Uh, we’re going to play a few videos, we’re going to tell a few stories.
Cathy: But it’s actually what I really want to talk about today, it’s Women’s History Month. So we started, we’re now on May 3rd, 4th, we’re at the beginning of March.
Cathy: I just said May. Women’s History Month is March. So we’re at the very beginning of March, and I just wanted to, uh, spend a little time talking about that fact, but doing it through the lens of a wonderful, um, uh, reading, um, called Women Holding Things.
Todd: And you’re writing.
Cathy: And my writing. Yes, we’re going to do both.
Cathy: We’re going to talk about both in terms of not just reading them to you, but why these things are important, why we recognize these things and, um, why it’s for, I, I know we have lots of different listeners, um, all genders, but the majority of our listeners are women. And there is a reason for that. Do you know the reason for that is, um, tell me, well, what do you think it is?
Cathy: Why do you think more women listen
Todd: to guys? Don’t, um, [00:02:00] Typically, guys aren’t as likely to say that they need support. And this is a podcast that offers resources and support.
Cathy: Yes, and I think, I think you’re exactly right. I think there’s probably a number of things why people don’t believe they need to, you know, listen to other people’s perspective when it comes to relationships and parenting.
Cathy: And I think historically or. Generally in our culture, men don’t believe that is their work to do.
Todd: Well, and this is the part where if a guy’s listening, I got a woman’s history month, I’ll tune in next week because this has nothing to do with me and
Cathy: it has everything to do.
Todd: Please listen. Yes. Mom’s dad’s please listen.
Todd: So that you can educate and inform and empower your daughters and your sons to have a more equitable experience in this. Society that we live in
Cathy: and it doesn’t exclude you. I think the thing that we often feel is that, oh, if I’m talking about women, then that’s not my business. And it’s absolutely your business because you live [00:03:00] in the world with women.
Cathy: You many, many people are partnered with women. Um, you may have daughters. Um, you may, you know, you live in the world among 51 percent of the population that has a different. experience than you. And the ability to see that clearly, to see through the lens. There’s a great clip and Todd, maybe you can find it, um, that I share quite often with people I’m debating issues, um, with, and it’s a Meryl Streep, uh, conversation.
Cathy: She’s talking with, uh, Steven Spielberg, Bradley Whitford. Um, I, I can’t remember who else is there. And she talks about how women. have learned to dream and speak in men. Why? Because we have been living inside of patriarchy. We have lived inside of, uh, adapting to a male culture. So we know how to live in and dream in a more male way.
Cathy: Men don’t know how to dream like a woman. It’s [00:04:00] why, um, You know, and again, it’s not that we need to know inside of each other’s brains, but there’s like a separateness from our experiences. And it’s why sometimes women get upset about certain screenplays or books with, um, a male writer because they often don’t know how to write women.
Cathy: Some do, um, but there are so many, you know, there’s another clip that I could have Todd pull up. I
Todd: think
Cathy: I got the
Todd: first
Cathy: one. Okay.
Todd: Um, I don’t know how long it is cause it’s short and it doesn’t tell me how long, but let’s give it a try. Yeah.
Women have learned the language of men, have lived in the house of men.
You know how when you learn language, you learn French, you learn Spanish, it isn’t your language until you dream in it. And the only way to dream in it is to speak it and women speak men, but men don’t speak women. They don’t dream in it. I think what Merrill’s trying to say, [00:05:00]
Cathy: he’s doing a funny mansplaining thing.
Cathy: But I find that to be, of course, Meryl Streep would say it in a compelling and understandable way, um, that doesn’t make it feel political or doesn’t make it feel like activism, it’s just truth. Uh, even though I’m fine with the political and activism part, it turns people off, where they start to be like, I don’t need to know this.
Cathy: And then the other thing, what I was saying, another clip Todd, maybe you could find, sorry, I’m putting you on the spot here, Reese Witherspoon, several years ago, maybe even a decade ago, saying that every part that she would read for a woman, they would all have a line that said, what do we do next? You know, kind of like looking to a man saying, what do we do next?
Cathy: Or what comes next? I can’t remember the exact quote. And then they pulled up all these clips where that is in every screenplay. And her point is women don’t do that. Women are always being preactive, you know, proactive and taking steps forward and are often the ones that people turn to, to say, what do we do [00:06:00] next?
Cathy: And so it’s kind of a. You know, that’s not a well written. What would
Todd: I put in to find it? Because I said put Reese Witherspoon reading parts for women. But
Cathy: maybe Reese Witherspoon. What do we do next?
Todd: Okay, what do we do next? What do we do now? What do we
Cathy: do now? That’s it. What do we do now? 11 minutes. Okay, it’s too long of a speech.
Cathy: Well, we’ll put it in the show notes, um, for you because it’s the same conversation about that. That’s not the reality of women. I, I often think in families, um, and again, it depends. Every family is different, different culture, but there’s often the person there. Like one of my most fun, uh, things that Todd does.
Cathy: Cause he reminds me so much of my family is my dad. He had some disabilities, so this made sense, but he would wake up every morning and come out and say to my mom, Judy, tell me what’s happening today. Tell me what’s happening today. And that was like what my dad did every day to my mom. And then [00:07:00] my mom would like fill him in and some of that was because he had a stroke and some of it was It was always that way when I was little, way before his stroke, it was what’s happening today, you know, because my mom was kind of in charge.
Cathy: Um, and so I just think that these are things that we’re going back to what you said. Like a lot of men may say, Oh, this has nothing to do with me. And it says everything
Todd: to do guys, listen up. I know it’s, and we, and I hope we get to a few of the extreme examples that you put in your sub stack. Sure. So I hope we can talk about that.
Todd: Um, It’s an exercise of empathy. One that I still sometimes struggle with because I’m like, oh, it’s got nothing to do with me. Let’s let women have their space. No, no, no. This is where we have to speak the language of women. Just like Meryl said. Um.
Cathy: And it’s an irony to even say, let’s let women have their space because Not you particular Todd, but men really don’t do that, right?
Cathy: There is a deciding for us. Yeah, there is a removal of rights There is an oppression. So men don’t even really do that. Can
Todd: I I did a [00:08:00] little bit of research on Women’s History Month? Yes, I didn’t even know before I woke up that it was Women’s History Month.
Welcome
Todd: Women’s History Month began And it began as Women’s History Week.
Cathy: Okay,
Todd: and can you guess which of our presidents in our lifetime initiated this?
Cathy: Bill Clinton,
Todd: nope
Cathy: Uh, am I, can you give me earlier earlier? Uh, uh, Roosevelt.
Todd: Uh, in our lifetime.
Cathy: Oh, in our lifetime. Um, Jimmy Carter.
Todd: There you go. Yeah, there we go. 1980 is initiated by Jimmy Carter, expanded to a full month in 1987 after lobbying efforts by the National Women’s History Project and March was chosen to align with International Women’s Day on March 8th, which I didn’t even know there was an International Women’s Day and I did not know it was on May 8th or March 8th.
Todd: So I am learning alongside of many others as they listen to this podcast.
Sure.
Todd: Um, and, and I just want to, we’re going to tell you some stories about, we’re going to reflect back what you wrote in your substack. And [00:09:00] it’s about everyday women navigating, what you say in your substack is navigating public spaces.
Todd: Uh huh. Uh, the responsibility that you women have in staying safe often falls entirely on the woman. Correct. And why is it this way? I want to dive into the mental load of hyper vigilance of you, the world that you guys have to do it, and then why does it all fall on you guys to keep yourself safe?
Cathy: And I think the two words that I think are most important in that substack are the adapting.
Cathy: The expectation that we adapt to the unsafety of our lives and, um, and what does that mean? Adapting? It means that like one of the parts of what I wrote is that I’ve worked with enough women who have been in situations where they’ve been abused or stalked or terrorized in some way. And all the recommendations from law enforcement have nothing to do with outside.
Cathy: It’s all about what the woman should do. So the woman should wear a certain type of clothes. The woman should walk home with someone. The woman [00:10:00] should text people when she gets home. The woman should be thoughtful about, you know, where she is at all times. It all falls on the woman. Being terrorized and and it’s and that’s not to say this is not a rip on police officers or anything.
Cathy: It’s just there’s a like our hands are tied. We can’t do anything until you are harmed. You know, there are some laws on the books now around stalking. Obviously, we have restraining orders, but as we all know, They, they’re not that helpful often because they’re pieces of paper. And so there is a lot of expectation that women adapt to their situation.
Cathy: I, you know, um, for example, on that sub stack, I just read this morning, a woman commented and said, yeah, you know, she lives in Chicago. It sounds like her in a big city. And she said, I get on a bus and she said, just this morning I got on a bus and a guy was really close to me and was like muttering right by me.
Cathy: And I. chose to sit somewhere and put my bag down next to me. And he was angry that my bag was next to me because he wanted to sit [00:11:00] next to me. So then he sat across from me and stared at me the whole time. And there is like a, you know, and again, this story that she’s sharing, she, it happened to her that morning.
Cathy: Like, it’s not like the first time this has happened to her. She’s like, these are just things that women adapt to. And we learn how to take precautions that I don’t think A lot of people are aware of.
Todd: So I just want to like, um, interject, like what is the hope for a podcast that we’re doing here today?
Todd: And I’m looking at it through the lens of a man. Okay. One is level one would be simply just to understand, like I, I’m, I no longer find it shocking when I explain to colleagues that are even older than, than me of what you need to do to keep yourself safe. It’s a way of going shopping by yourself. You meaning me.
Todd: You meaning Kathy. Um, and that you can’t really run at night. No. Right? No. And, and I [00:12:00] remember saying this to a colleague who I respect who I think is a good guy. He’s like, what? Like he had no idea. So level one, just to understand women language. Do you mean
Cathy: like going for a jog? Yeah. On at night? Yeah. No.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: Right? I mean, if you were in a group of like five or something, but even then we’d be looking over our shoulder the whole time. Of course not.
Todd: So level one is just to understand the lens in which our female counterparts experience the world. That’s level one. Level two, to your point of that woman who just commented on your sub stack there, I’m guessing there was guys on the bus.
Cathy: Right. So,
Todd: guys, just get in the way of that. Yeah. Like, just politely just get in the way, or make sure that Sit closer to her. Sit closer to her, whatever it is, in a way that it feels friendly, obviously. Good point, good point. And then level three is, speak up, or do something. So, like Pick a lane one, two or three.
Todd: I don’t care. Maybe it’s just to understand what it means But level two because what I what I know of because I there’s also a part of me That [00:13:00] will listen to the stories that we’re gonna talk about. We’re gonna talk about a tennis player named Emma I can’t pronounce her last name. I’m sorry Radu Kanu Okay.
Todd: Reticano. Her, Julie DeCaro, and this woman in Idaho. Those are the three people you bring up in your subsects. And it’s, and maybe, I don’t know how specific we’ll get with any of these three, but they’re all stories of fear of safety.
Mm
Cathy: hmm.
Todd: Okay.
Cathy: And. I would say. Just to make it more specific, it’s not the fear.
Cathy: It’s the reality,
Todd: the reality. Yeah.
Cathy: Cause it’s not like an anxiety,
Todd: unsafety nature of being in this world. And, and I want to, um, say that we, as a guy, I sometimes be like. So, this, this, this stalker, this stalker at a tennis tournament, this woman, this professional tennis player, her name is Emma, I don’t know what country she’s from, but is at the Dubai Tennis Championships.
Todd: There, why don’t you go ahead and tell the story, and then I want to come in with my two [00:14:00] cents on it.
Cathy: So, she was playing, and, well, let me start, earlier in the day, or the day before, there was an acknowledgement that there had been a man stalking her, and he actually approached her with a letter that was obviously in some way terrifying.
Cathy: And so she before the tournament went to security, went to her staff and said, there is this man that is following me or stalking me. This is who he is. This is what he wrote me. This is what he looks like. This is what’s going on. And so she then goes into the tournament, she’s playing and she looks up in the stands and in the first row.
Cathy: Of the stands is this guy and so she stops playing. She walks over to the umpire the that’s what they’re called. Correct? In tennis and explains what’s happening visually like you can see her talking and breaking down then goes and hides behind the umpire stand. And then the other woman, her, her competitor also.
Cathy: goes off the court and goes to soothe her. I’m like another woman, right? Of course, you know, going over there and [00:15:00] understanding they remove this guy and then she’s expected to play again. She lost the match, which is probably no big surprise. Um, but the fact that a woman who is saying this is happening and she has maybe the luxury.
Cathy: of being believed, yet she’s still in a situation where she can’t be kept safe. And why
Todd: is
Cathy: she
Todd: the
Cathy: one identifying this guy? Correct. And, and I said in the sub stack, even if we give everyone in that place the benefit of the doubt that they did their best to keep this person out, it’s still. Is an acknowledgment of the experiences that women have, you know, think about that.
Cathy: She’s actually got a security that wants to look out for her. And yet he’s somehow in the front row and there is a, it, it then lessened her ability to do her job and to just feel safe. And anybody who’s like, Oh, well, what’s he going to do? Just Sellis was stabbed at a [00:16:00] tennis match.
Todd: Yeah. You’ve got to believe all the threats.
Todd: Correct. Correct. Correct. So the. The point I wanted to make is when I hear stories like this about this stalker, who probably is has some mental issues or whatever, or maybe he’s just a misogynist. I don’t know what he is. What I, there’s a part of me, it’s like, yeah, but that’s not me. I’m a good guy. And, um, Um, and I just want to like own that there’s a part of me like, well, there’s nothing I can do about it.
Todd: Like, what am I supposed to do about this thing in Dubai? What we can do about this as men is to listen to a podcast like this or, or research or read Kathy’s sub stack, share it with your sons, share it with your partners, share it with men in your life so that we can start looking at this through the world of a woman.
Todd: Because the only way for us to care is to understand. And I think. There’s a part of me that doesn’t understand. So I don’t care.
Cathy: Yeah. Like two things I would say, thank you for saying read the sub stack, because I actually say, if you have a heart, I feel like if the men in our lives, including our sons, our brothers, our partners, our uncles, our fathers, [00:17:00] if they don’t understand this reality for us, it’s something we need to explain.
Cathy: Um, it’s something we need to share. And, and if we’re lucky, there’ll be a curiosity about it. Some will be turned away and they’re like, I don’t want to hear it. Um, but if you’re having a hard time. Sharing. I wrote this substack for this reason. Like, share this with your sons. This is an experience of women, because it’s not just about my mom.
Cathy: It’s about, did you know this? For a lot of women, these are experiences that they’ve had. And the thing is, is there is a campaign. That, um, uh, I don’t know if campaign’s the right word. There is a cultural norm of not believing women, of thinking that women lie for attention, believing that women, um, exaggerate their experiences, that they’re overdramatic, that they’re neurotic.
Cathy: Um, this is a cultural norm. Why is that a cultural norm? Because then you don’t have to listen to us. Like, it makes compl you know, it’s like, women’s pain is not as [00:18:00] acknowledged in doctor’s appointments as men’s pain. There’s a, there’s a belief that women exaggerate their pain and that men don’t. So this, these kinds of belief systems trickle into our health.
Cathy: It trickles into like our ability to be cared for, you know, the belief that what women need postpartum, uh, they don’t need it, you know, send them back to work. They’re fine. You know, the belief that we don’t need mammograms or that insurance isn’t going to cover, you know, our pap smears every month, like, or every year.
Cathy: It this lack of belief of women trickles into our ability to be cared for the fact that we don’t know anything. We’re just learning about menopause in 2024 and 2025 like there’s been no information about menopause. What doctors have said is, yep, deal with it. This is a stage of life. Yep. Not only that, but don’t take HRT.
Cathy: This is historically, not now, because we did one research study that it showed breast cancer when really that’s all been debunked. But that’s what doctors were going off of, so women weren’t given any [00:19:00] relief. I’m talking and talking and talking because I want men to see it’s not just about our safety.
Cathy: It’s about this overall lack of understanding of women’s needs and rights.
Todd: Can I read the last two paragraphs of your subject? Sure, please. They’re pretty good.
Cathy: Thank you.
Todd: Uh, the beginning of change for any issue starts with awareness. Shining a light on something that many may not see through a woman’s perspective.
Todd: Instead of placing the burden on women to adapt to a lack of safety, can we shift the conversation towards building a cultural culture where women’s safety is prioritized and understood? It means holding systems accountable and talking to our kids, especially our sons, about respect. Boundaries and compassion both for themselves and others, but speaking up when something feels off and building communities where safety isn’t the exception, but the rule we’re showing up, speaking up and doing what you love doesn’t come with such a heavy cost.
Cathy: So thank you for reading that and the doing what you love. The point is, is, you know, Emma, who’s playing tennis, um, [00:20:00] is being stocked and there’s a man there. And so it. She may have lost anyway, but it definitely changed her game and gave her a lot of stress. And then the next story I share is like you said, Julie DeCaro, who used to be my editor when I was a blogger for Chicago now, and she wrote a book about her experiences and being a sports writer in Chicago.
Cathy: And she, um, you know, just the misogyny, just let’s say the blatant misogyny of a woman being a sports commentator.
Todd: Yeah, she was commenting on James Winston.
Cathy: Yes.
Todd: Who was, uh, found guilty, I believe. Accused of, I don’t know if he was. Thrown allegedly in there. Even though he’s a NFL football player who won the Heisman Trophy.
Cathy: His story was, uh, shown in the movie The Hunting Ground.
Yeah.
Cathy: Which, um, it was shown the woman who, um, accused him. She, it’s her story in the movie. So the hunting ground is a movie based on date rape.
Todd: So, uh, so Julie started sharing her own experience of her being raped in college [00:21:00] and she would share it on Twitter.
Todd: Like she would share all the other things that she’s writing about on Twitter, her
life experience. And then all of the. All of the They came after her. And
Cathy: they said things like, You should get raped again. You should be
Todd: Bill Cosby’s next victim. Bill Cosby’s
Cathy: next victim. If I see you, if I come to Chicago, you better watch out, I’m gonna hurt you.
Cathy: Um, death threats, rape threats. And I feel like
Todd: this is the part I learned it from Jackson Katz and he talks about the pyramid rape culture, rape culture. And at the top of the pyramid is somebody raping somebody. But at the very base of the pyramid is the sexist jokes is the, what can be sometimes considered benign little locker room talk and it’s all interconnected.
Todd: And my hope by doing this podcast, we can start educating. The men and the boys of this pyramid and that it starts with the base. It doesn’t start up top [00:22:00] and I just sometimes like, Oh, I’m not the, I don’t rape women. So this isn’t my problem and it is, that’s all.
Cathy: It’s just recognizing the whole idea of the pyramid is this is where it starts and this is how it becomes normalized or get, there’s a belief system that it’s not that big of a deal is if, if comments, if you can say comments or tweet things that are repulsive, then it’s like, okay.
Cathy: Maybe I can live these things. Maybe I can say these things to someone’s face. Maybe I can start harming some, assaulting somebody, or um, you know, following them home. It becomes this normalization of power over women, and, or the belief that there’s a dehumanization. And so, my experience is, again, um, For those, I wrote restoring our girls and I didn’t just write it for moms and daughters, you know, like I feel like if men, if you want to experience why we don’t talk about things with our girls or the things that we don’t relate to with our girls or how to talk to your [00:23:00] girls, this is like, that’s what the book is for.
Cathy: I mean, definitely I’m sharing women’s experience because girls grow into women, but it’s not like only girls and women will get this. Like, I think that. That boys and men would really benefit if you have daughters, or if you don’t have daughters, you just know girls and women from reading a book where you’re like, Oh, I’m now seeing I’m dreaming.
Cathy: Like a girl or a woman, and I think there are things that we do, this is the hypervigilance and the adapting part, that we do every day that are so normal to us that it’s not even worth talking about because it’s our everyday experience. Just like, again this is totally different but I just want to give this as an example.
Cathy: Our periods every month, right? We’re not like telling everyone all the time, Oh, I’m getting, I’m getting my period. I mean, maybe we are, we’re like, you know, having a tough week before or something, but we’re so, it’s so normal to us. We’re not like, Oh, this is a huge deal. It happens every month from, for me, from the time I was [00:24:00] 12 years old, you know?
Cathy: So it’s like. There’s nothing, that’s just our life. Whereas like if, if, you know, some dads, if, you know, someone’s like, can you go buy me tampons? And there’s like a, Oh my God, I can’t imagine buying tampons. That’s
Todd: women’s business.
Cathy: Yeah. That’s women’s business. And it’s like, for us, that’s just our world.
Todd: If you, uh, if you’re not a reader, um, just a few, like some people like watching movies, documentaries, Hunting Ground is one of them.
Todd: What are a few of the others that. We have screened or have enjoyed to see the world through our wives or daughters experience.
Cathy: I think the hunting ground is a really good one, especially if you have children who are, uh, daughters who are in college or going to college. Um, there was a movie that we screened at our library.
Cathy: I can’t remember what it was called, but it was about rape kits. And it was, um, produced by Mariska Hargitay, who is the SVU, um, woman and she, actress, and she’s been on the show for like 20 years. And so it’s become for her, just as a person doing kind of pretend SVU on TV, she’s gotten all these stories of women who have been [00:25:00] sexually assaulted.
Cathy: How their rape kits, if their rape kit is even done, and a rape kit is when you go to the hospital and then they take, um, they take evidence, you know, and how there’s just warehouses and warehouses of rape kits that have never been tested. They’re not in the system. And so what does that mean? It means it demonstrates in the in a big way that we don’t care that finding these people who raped these women is not a priority.
Cathy: And it’s like you can say, but it is a priority to my. Husband or it is a priority to this, you know, Stafford. Yes. But as a culture, it’s not because we wouldn’t have warehouses of rape kits if we thought that would be A good thing to test.
Right.
Cathy: And so she is working really hard to get things computerized and in the system because let’s just say the obvious thing.
Cathy: If something’s in the system, evidence is in the system and then somebody is a serial rapist or, or, you know, even does this twice, [00:26:00] then there’s more connection. You see who this person is. You can find, you know, if for law enforcement, it’s got to be a lot easier. Um, So that was a really good movie that we screened.
Cathy: There
Todd: was, uh, Girl
Cathy: Rising.
Todd: Girl Rising, the Netflix, uh, even though it’s fictitious, uh, unbelievable. That’s wonderful. Really good. Very well done. Um, so do you feel like going, transitioning over to this Instagram thing you had me do?
Cathy: Well, let me say, uh, the last thing, cause the last person we, uh, didn’t talk about is the woman in Idaho who was dragged out of a, um, uh, Republican, uh, town hall meeting town hall meeting and what happened is I don’t know about you, Todd, and I’m not even trying to be a smart aleck, but town hall meeting.
Cathy: The whole point is having asking questions, right? You
Todd: would think
Cathy: so. And, um, you know, a lot of people showed up, uh, some very supportive of the agenda, I assume, and many who were not happy about some decisions that have been made about cutting Medicaid. Um, women’s rights, uh, you know, several other school [00:27:00] vouchers.
Cathy: And so this woman was one of them and she actually yelled out during it. Um, you know, what did she say? Oh, something like, are you lecturing at us or is this a town hall? You know, she was, she was being disruptive. Like, let’s not pretend she wasn’t, she was being disruptive, which, you know, that’s, I kind of feel like if a dude was yelling that out, we wouldn’t.
Cathy: Do as much about it, but that’s just my opinion. What ended up happening is this woman literally got dragged out of this meeting. When I say, I mean, go look at it on your own. You don’t have to take my, um, word for it. Uh, just put in Idaho Republican Town Hall. And she was dragged out by three men who were not even security.
Cathy: They were like hired to be it. There’s a whole. thing going on there. And what, what made me the most sad besides that I was just bothered that she can’t question like she’s there disrupting because she doesn’t agree. And, and there’s no, isn’t that what we’re all built on? Isn’t that our country [00:28:00] is this kind of like debate and disruption?
Cathy: And, um, and it was peaceful. She was in her seat. She wasn’t like running around. She didn’t have weapons. It was nothing. No one was unsafe. And then When you’re watching her be dragged out, there are men clapping and men like You know, pushing her, like, you know what I mean, like, you know, good riddance kind of thing.
Cathy: And then the, the MC, um, the guy who was in charge of the town hall, like, said something to the effect of, like, well, look at that little girl. You know, she wanted to be disruptive, and now she doesn’t want to deal with the consequences. Very, very, um, patronizing, cruel, um, and, you know, oppressive. So, You know, I see these things all the time and I, and I, they are in the news.
Cathy: Obviously I’ve read articles about it, but I don’t feel like we talk about these things enough. And, and I want to, as you said, I want to transition to the women holding things clip from Instagram. And, um, [00:29:00] Because I do want to focus on the more positive aspects, but we don’t get to live in the world where we just focus on positive all the time.
Cathy: Um, and this book, this women holding things is from a book by Myra Kalman. Um, and you know, so let’s transition.
Todd: All right. So any more setup that you want to do before I press play?
Cathy: Just that this, and I noticed this video last year too. This is just the first time we’re talking about it. It’s a quick clip from her book and she’s, she reads it.
Cathy: And they give you beautiful imagery of women holding things because that’s what it’s called. So why don’t you just play it?
Women holding things. What do women hold? The home and the family and the children and the food, the friendships, the work, the work of the world, and the work of being human, the memories and the troubles and the sorrows and the triumphs and the love men do as well, but not quite in the same way.
Sometimes when I’m feeling particularly happy or content, [00:30:00] I think I can provide sustenance for legions of human beings. I can hold the entire world in my arms. Other times I can barely cross the room, and I drop my arms, frozen. There is never an end to holding, and certainly there is often the feeling of never doing enough.
And then there is the next day, and the next day. And one holds on,
Cathy: so because this is a podcast, I highly recommend everybody, uh, Todd will put a link in the show notes that you watch it, um, because the imagery, uh, reflects the literal holding, you know, carrying things down the street, um, helping an elderly person cross the street, uh, carrying children, carrying groceries, um, the very literal things we hold with the understanding that there’s layers of meaning.
Cathy: within all of those things, and um, I just really think that our ability, like, and I’ll just speak for myself, I’m [00:31:00] 53 years old, or am I 53 or 54? You’re 53, babe. I’m 53. And what I know for sure. about me being here in the world is I know that is my work and not just because I’m a woman. This is not about, you know, I’m blending into my cultural norms.
Cathy: I know it is my job to hold people and things and hold help hold people up and help hold the world up and You know, take care of our animals and take care of the nature. Like there’s nothing, there’s nothing else there. I love my work and I love writing and I love watching movies and I love pop culture.
Cathy: That’s all good. That’s all icing. But why are we here to hold each other?
Todd: Well, we had a, we had a rough weekend this weekend and you did that beautifully for our kids. Thank you. So
Cathy: did you.
Todd: No.
Cathy: You did. Yeah. I
Todd: think, I think you were more on than I was.
Cathy: Well, I think what’s nice about me saying that is I think some [00:32:00] people will, uh, depending on where you are in your cycle of your own personal understanding, you may hear that as a martyrdom, like, Oh, my job is to hold people up.
Cathy: And I think, you know, I’ve been doing this podcast 14, 15 years. And I think in the first couple of years of parenthood, I would have said that sentence kind of like a martyr, like my job here is to do this. I mean it very differently now. Um, I mean it like there is nothing else. And I mean that in the best way.
Cathy: Um, there are too many people who search for things, if it be inside of money. Or inside of the next promotion or inside of power or fame. Um, and they think something’s going to be in there. And while there is some joy in it and some fun and some icing, like I said, there’s, you know, I don’t judge people who are ambitious.
Cathy: I don’t judge people who want a little fame or money. Like, is this all fun? I’ve gone after these things, but what I think people find is that it’s, it, you can get a little, and then it. It empties really fast, and the things that don’t empty fast [00:33:00] are really great relationships, um, love, helping people, um, good conversations, enjoying good meals with people, uh, texting people.
Cathy: We love getting texts, birthdays. These are the things that Ground us here
Todd: reminds me of, um, when we interviewed Gaddis and he had a t-shirt on that said, connection is food, totally connection is our oxygen. Um, not for everybody. Some people’s oxygen is power and money and all that, and they have a different version of what.
Todd: A meaningful life means, but for, I think, most of us, connection is food.
Cathy: Well, and I will say, as a therapist, as somebody who, you know, I’m saying this in a more professional way, I hear that that is their first, um, that is their, you know, if we’re putting our loves in order, their love is power and money, but it, doesn’t nurture them.
Cathy: It’s not
Todd: food. It’s a, it’s a hole that can never be filled.
Cathy: Correct. So yes, you’re right. And also we can’t use the same language because we [00:34:00] all know, like I don’t, you know, I love talking to my college students about this because the influencer thing has dropped off a little bit. Like there was a period of time where everyone just wanted to be famous or be an influencer or have their own page.
Cathy: You know, there was so much of that. Where that’s dropped off a little bit. I, which I’m glad to say, but we would talk about people in the, in the entertainment industry who were, I mean, we’ve talked about everyone from Michael Jackson to Justin Bieber to, um, you know, Amy Winehouse to, you know, people who have fame, money, influence, power.
Cathy: talent, and they are miserable
Todd: and sometimes take their own lives,
Cathy: correct? So it’s like, you can’t come at me and say, if I have money, and if I have power, then I’ll be happy. Because we also know Gen Xers listen up from every behind the music and E true Hollywood stories that we watched as we were, you know, growing up through the 90s, is that the whole thing, the thing that people, bands, you know, People who became famous, what they loved was the [00:35:00] journey there.
Cathy: Once they got it, they got lost. The vast majority, unless they had a good family system or a good partnership or something to keep them stable. So, you know, this is what it is. And this is not gendered. I’m not saying only women have this experience. There’s plenty of men who know exactly, you know, they know why they’re here.
Cathy: And it’s, it’s based in relationships. But MenLiving. You know, we were just, Todd and I took a walk this morning and we were talking about some of this research around loneliness and cigarette smoking and how there’s actually a quote now that’s loneliness is the new cigarette smoking because it’s killing people.
Cathy: Loneliness. And what, Todd, what’s the stat, Todd, with men
Todd: and friendships? One in six men in this country don’t have a single friend.
Cathy: So, this is something that I think men Have the ability to do and there’s plenty of men who have that that grounded nature of understanding why they’re here But I [00:36:00] think they are right now as a as a culture men are learning.
Cathy: What really is important to me and Figuring that out and maybe always have been but because I’m married to you and I see what you’re doing with men living I see it as like a cultural shift and And it’s wonderful You know, I think it’s wonderful. Uh, so anyway, just can I say a few things about this, this video?
Cathy: So a few things about this, this short piece from, um, from Mara’s book, uh, a few ideas from it, you know, some obvious ones. This piece is about caregiving, you know, it’s about the physical and emotional labor. that we are expected to do as mothers, as people who bring life into the world, you know, managing daily tasks, all those kinds of things.
Cathy: Um, the ability to have humor about life, like the ability, I think one thing that’s nice about adapting to situations, like women are kind of forced, adapting is my new favorite word as far as talking about men and women and [00:37:00] gender, and women have been forced to adapt to new situations over and over and over again.
Cathy: Like, how do we maintain our sense of humor? of self in a society that’s ever changing. And, um, I think that a way a lot of women do that is through humor. I think at least for me it is and my friends and my family, like we all have a, I think a very good sense of humor.
Todd: I mean, I, I also like the word adapt and it’s something you’ve been kind of using a lot since your book came out, but I feel like the, the need for humor is That is an adaptation, but I also think it’s like a survival thing.
Todd: Like we have to have levity. We have to. Otherwise, what are we doing here? Because this is, there’s certain aspects of our society and not just now, but forever, that has been hard to handle. So levity is really important
Cathy: and levity is connected to joy and beauty and see, you know, humor breaks up negativity.
Cathy: It’s like, I kind of see it as like, as soon as we tell it, we don’t [00:38:00] want to tell the joke too quickly because sometimes we need to have feelings and we don’t want to make fun of people. That’s not what it is. It’s that sometimes having some humor inside of something dark opens a window for light.
Todd: Well, it’s funny.
Todd: You have number five here. It’s an individual and collective experience. And what I think about is like, I don’t know, nine, 40 years ago, I’m watching channel 11 and it’s a nature channel. And I’ve shared this with you a bunch of times. I don’t know if I shared it on the podcast, but. There’s a, uh, mother lion caring for her young.
Todd: And my mom was like in sync with this lion. Like, and you know, like the, the lion was trying to get some sleep because she’s been out hunting all night because I don’t think the male lions hunt. All they do is protect. Just hilarious. And this lion just lick beat down. And my mom’s like. I totally get it.
Todd: She’s
Cathy: like, woman, I get you. And then there’s also on that, you know, same note with nature is, uh, you know, unfortunately this is done, [00:39:00] uh, in zoos. And I know that you’re not a big fan of zoos, but there are like women who bring their babies and then show them to monkeys who are, you know, and there’s like.
Cathy: And there’s been situations where the, the monkeys, the gorillas will run and get their babies.
Todd: Oh, no way. Oh, yeah. There’s this great one
Cathy: where she like runs and she comes out holding her kid. Like, talk about connecting. Like, oh, mama, I got you. That’s so good. We know exactly. And, and the thing about, You know, one of the things, I haven’t talked about this for a long time because my kids are so much older, but I remember the shift I went through when I became a mom.
Cathy: It’s what started my whole writing career is that I was like, wow, I am changing so fast and I need to write about this because I need to get my shit together. Like I was losing myself. I was having an identity crisis. And what I remember about having a kid and becoming a mom is I was so clear that this is exactly what needs to be happening.
Cathy: It needs to be changing. I need to be coming. I’m becoming a different person, but it wasn’t all [00:40:00] fun. I felt also very, um, more. Overwhelmed, I felt more afraid, there was more anxiety in me, I felt a loss of freedom and that there is this like shifting, er, er, er, when you become, you know, as a woman or a girl in society and I had always been somewhat of a caregiver, especially as a therapist and a teacher, but when you are in charge of people, when they are your people in your home, You, you just become different.
Cathy: And one thing that Todd will, uh, he will attest, like, I definitely did this where the girls would sometimes tell me when they were little, like, mom, you don’t do anything fun or mom, you never go in the water, you never swim. And I would always get so upset because. They didn’t really know me, because of course I do those things, but I cannot do those things and take care of you.
Cathy: I have to be a different person, and so that was always where my two worlds clashed, where it’s like Kathy the individual [00:41:00] and Kathy the mom. And I, there, there’s ton of overlap now, and as the girls grew up, I gave them more of myself, you know, like here’s my music, here’s my loves, here’s the movies, let’s watch together.
Cathy: So I, I shared more of myself, but I, I couldn’t. And I still can’t be a complete individual for them. I am a role in their life. And, um, so I often get frustrated about their like, lack of understanding, you know, that dad was fun and I wasn’t like, dudes, I am so fun. Todd, I am so fun. Sweetie, you are fun. Come on.
Cathy: Come on. Let’s be honest. Give it up for me. Um, so finishing this up, the, there’s a few things about ritual and memory that women do. Give it a go. Everybody. Um, the, you know, what she’s talking about in the women holding things like we hold memory, we hold ritual, like in your family, who holds all the memories?
Todd: My sister.
Cathy: Yes. I mean, it’s not you and John. No. It’s Shane with every memory.
Todd: She remembers the people, she remembers the stories. [00:42:00] The
Cathy: years. The
Todd: years. Um, yeah. The feelings. She’s like our, and it’s not like she wrote this stuff down. It just mattered more to her than it did. To us and and because what we usually remember are things that emit emotion, correct?
Todd: So maybe the reason my brother and I don’t remember half of this stuff Is because we did not allow our emotions to come through us And hers it does You know, we all remember what we were on 9 11, right? Why? Because we all were scared. Exactly. There’s emotion behind that. Um, so anyways.
Cathy: It’s the way trauma affects memory.
Cathy: And that’s always what she’s been trying to share is this was a traumatic experience for our family. Do you guys remember? And often you guys don’t.
Todd: Most of the time we don’t.
Cathy: And she shares to give you guys a cohesive sense of self. Like, and why I’m bringing this up is a lot of times women get ridiculed for things like, oh, they’re scrapbooking or they’re keeping all these, um, pictures online or they have all these Google photos on their phone.
Cathy: You know why? Because they’re [00:43:00] maintaining a storyline for their family. They’re keeping, you know, memories alive. They’re keeping storytelling alive. And they’re, and it’s not just a creative passion. It can be, but it’s also, there’s something to it. Um, there’s a lot in women holding things about letting go.
Cathy: And what I love is the whole idea of what women choose to let go of. Right. Like letting go is not just about, I mean, it’s like it symbolizes liberation, grief, choosing to not. be oppressed anymore, to let go of things, trauma, like women are so good at these things and not all, but the women I’ve worked with who have gone through such awful things and they have found a way to transcend and to teach or to offer or to share or to love more or to be more compassionate, not, you know, refusing to carry it.
Cathy: And [00:44:00] then, I love this one. Women holding things is also political activism. Holding signs, holding children.
Todd: You remember our last experience with that? We drove in the city on Saturday. Oh,
Cathy: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Todd: There’s a few women that said, Honk if you support Ukraine, which Kathy and I do. Mm
Cathy: hmm.
Todd: And It wasn’t two dudes out there holding signs.
Todd: It was
Cathy: Ukrainian women in, you could, you just, you know, where it’s the city of Chicago, there’s a big population. And there’s
Todd: part of me like, I, I, I, they were inspiring, right? These women believe in what they, they. It’s their homeland. It’s their homeland. And they’d be like, what good is this doing? Like part of me is like, let’s go to legislation, whatever, like something ridiculously hard to do, but they, I like, I don’t know.
Todd: There’s something about them. They’re doing it. I don’t know why they’re doing it, but it’s inspirational.
Cathy: Well, I think they’re doing it because when you’re feeling beat down and that the world is against you, you can go out to a corner and say, honk. If you support Ukraine and you get that feedback from the [00:45:00] world, which is not, everyone’s going to honk.
Cathy: Some people are going to ignore you. Some people may disagree, whatever it may be. Yeah. But they are. willing to go out there and raise awareness. Like raising awareness happens at many different levels. And for those of us who are like, well, that’s for Congress to do. There’s not much happening.
No.
Cathy: So, um, there’s, there’s a lot of stuckness.
Cathy: So I think that there’s gotta be a lot of grassroots efforts. So, you know, women’s historical role. In change, you know, we are creating change. And then, of course, my final one that we’ll stop on is holding, women holding things, holding each other. Women are, you know, there’s, there’s hugging, and bringing people together, and family pictures.
Cathy: Todd hates family pictures. Look at our house.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: What if I would have said, Oh, Todd doesn’t like this. Let’s not get these pictures. Imagine what our home would look like.
Todd: Yeah. A little sterile.
Cathy: And we have stages [00:46:00] from every, like we don’t do it every year. I’m not, you know, but we have all these stages of us holding each other.
Cathy: And so you can remember. that we’ve walked through the world together. And I know that a lot of times, you know, or finding a photographer, organizing that time, getting everyone dressed does fall to the woman. And there’s a lot of like, mom, you make us do this. And mom, and then you look at your home and you’re
Todd: glad you did it.
Cathy: And you’re glad you did it. Yeah. So foresight. Yeah. And so connection, solidarity, strength and relationships and communities. I want to every any woman who is still listening this podcast right now who did the whole. time with us. Thank you for what you do. I see you. I feel in, uh, cahoots with you. Um, I feel connected to you and, uh, your hard work is not unnoticed and, um, and men who are listening.
Cathy: Thank you for being curious and for wondering. And for also you, I’m sure have your own stories and some connection where you’re like, I feel a lot of [00:47:00] camaraderie here as well. Um, it doesn’t have to be for those who are like, well. Are we really separating by gender? Not always, but sometimes.
Todd: Sure.
Cathy: We have to talk about each other’s
Todd: experiences.
Todd: Boom. Uh, I want to thank, uh, Jeremy Kraft. He’s a bald headed beauty. He paints and remodels homes throughout the Chicagoland area. Uh, his website is avidco. net. His phone number is 630 956 1800. Tell them, uh, tell Jeremy that Todd and Kathy sent you. Um, anything else, babe? Uh, no. Women’s group tomorrow. Team Zen.
Todd: For Team Zen.
Cathy: If you’re interested
Todd: in Team Zen, just click on the link below.
Cathy: And Restoring Our Girls, if you want to learn more about this. Buy the book.
Todd: Keep tracking. Oh.
Round two. Change a little bit. And change a little bit. Pretty [00:48:00] pleasant.
