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Todd: Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is episode number 804. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding. And always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s well being is a parent’s self understanding. Uh, the title of today’s show is going to be The End of Discussion.
Todd: And that’s the end of
Cathy: the discussion. So now
Todd: we’re done. Um, will you tease it? Cause then I, I do have a few kind of small things I wanted.
Cathy: Well, you know, I think I’ll start it this way. Like if, if you are somebody who is kind of, you struggle to watch the news, um, because you feel like everyone’s just yelling at each other, which I, I don’t, Watch the news at [00:01:00] all, because I can’t deal with those kind of like cross table discussions.
Cathy: What’s that called? Like when they’re like in sports and stuff and in news, when people are like, they’re all sitting at a table and they just yell at each other. What’s that called?
Todd: Unhealthy debates?
Cathy: I guess. I feel like there’s a name for it. It’s like a type of, you know, just, but regardless, it’s very hard for me to listen.
Cathy: And Part of the reason is because what people use in those discussions are what are called thought terminating cliches. Um, a thought terminating cliche, we’re going to talk about that throughout the show, like, so you have a better understanding of what it is, but it’s not just used on the news. It’s used when you’re in discussion with someone.
Cathy: Um, it’s used when you’re trying to make points and the other person is making their points. And basically what it is, is a sentence that someone says that completely stops the ability to continue talking. Um, what I mean by that is saying something like, um, I’ll just do really basic one is like, Let’s [00:02:00] agree to disagree.
Cathy: So if I said that to Todd, that’s what if I’m like, okay, let’s just agree to disagree. That’s
Todd: the end of the discussion. That’s the end of the discussion. We’re not going to get any further if we keep talking.
Cathy: Correct. And I want to, what we’re going to really kind of parse out in this conversation is how it can be very nuanced because there are times that a discussion may need to come to a close.
Cathy: Um, but for the majority of time, there’s a lot more insidious. Uh, thought terminating cliches that are meant to kind of wrap you up and get you overwhelmed. And um, oftentimes they’re used to mess with your brain. So these, you know, this is like a cult tactic. Um, it’s a way of getting people to not think for themselves.
Cathy: It’s getting people to not be critical thinkers. And so I wrote a, um, Substack last week about this and I used a lot of examples. So Todd and I wanted to kind of talk through it again Using the examples and talk through how what we can do differently and how we can have [00:03:00] conversations That don’t end up like big fights on the news.
Todd: There we go But first I want to say that I’m about to play a video of a man named Ricky Pearsall. Okay, and this is Ricky is a He’s a member of the San Francisco 49ers. Okay. And he was shot in the chest, uh, the summer before and he missed a bunch of games because he got shot.
Wow.
Todd: Um, and the story’s about forgiveness.
Todd: Okay. And it’s a really sweet little thing, but I just wanted to say that I have, um, we have a partner. This week. Okay. And so this little video clip is presented by David Serrano.
Cathy: Okay.
Todd: You know, David Serrano is
Cathy: our financial management guy,
Todd: personal financial advisor, David Serrano, one on one financial advice, helping figure out the balance between saving for retirement versus saving for college tuitions, um, how you should play the market and so on and so forth.
Todd: He’s smart, he’s trustworthy. [00:04:00] He’s David Serrano. , uh, his, is that, is that his new tagline I made? Yeah, I made that up. Uh, his phone number is eight one five three seven oh three seven eight oh. Kathy and I, uh, trust him wholeheartedly with all of our finances and you should too. So, anyways, so he, I’m just gonna play a clip.
Todd: So this guy. Uh, named Ricky, uh, is a 49er, and this is 60 seconds when a newspaper reporter asked him about this man who shot him.
Okay. That’s all I got to say. Are you ever curious about what, what caused him to? Yeah, I’m curious, but you know, sometimes You just don’t got answers for that. You know what I mean?
For me, you know, I don’t, I don’t got answers. I don’t know where he’s came from, what environment he grew up in, you know, and that goes back for, I was just about to talk about the entire opinions about the whole situation for me. It’s like, you know, I don’t know how he grew up. So I can’t judge him as a man just based off of one action that he made is, you know, as [00:05:00] violent as a crime.
It was, you know, God forbid him doing that to somebody else. You know, I don’t ever want that to happen. So, you know, whatever has to go into that. Right. Right. But for me, you know, just being able to forgive him at the end of the day, like, I have to be able to forgive him and have that weight on my chest, you know what I mean?
And, you know, at some point I do want to talk to the kid and, you know, make sure that, you know, if I can create an impact on him in any way, I think, you know, that would be really big. I’d be definitely open to doing that, for sure. About that,
Cathy: that’s basically the opposite of what we’re talking about today, which is very interesting.
Cathy: I like the juxtaposition because basically saying I, I want to keep this an open dialogue. He literally uses, I want to get it off my chest. And didn’t you say he got shot? I
Todd: believe he got shot in the chest. Yeah.
Cathy: So that’s really, I mean, that’s for his own mental health. That’s where he’s got to be.
Todd: Yeah.
Todd: No. And, um, I just listened to 60 Minutes, which was kind of a, just a depressing 20 minutes of [00:06:00] news, and I just needed to counterbalance that with somebody who looks at the world through a different lens than some of the things that are going on in this world right now.
Cathy: Well, and that’s the thing that’s so crazy to me, is that I, you know, I hear what he says, and, and again, not everybody would, speak like he does and be willing to forgive.
Cathy: But I think more of us are, we, we understand that kindness is important and compassion is important and aren’t we taught that? Like, doesn’t everyone go through school and learn that? And, and again, I’m not saying it’s always, you know, it’s not the only thing they learn. You know, there are people who are treated poorly and there’s adults who take advantage of kids.
Cathy: I’m very aware of the, um, the many different ways we get formed and shaped, but sometimes when I look at the news and I look at what What people are choosing to do right now, if it be with this administration or it’s so cruel and it’s hard for me to believe that people are like, yay, like, you know, how do you cheer for something that is so, you know, it’s harmful and it, [00:07:00] it feels not thought out and it feels, um, there’s a, it’s just rough.
Cathy: I, I, I don’t, I don’t listen to 60 minutes. Cause like I said, I would advise against it. It was a bad one. Yeah,
Todd: it’s just a lot of stuff happening in the government right now, and it’s just very demoralizing. Yeah. Frustrating. I just texted your sister, actually, because we’re going back and forth on some other stuff.
Todd: I’m just like, I’m just like, if you want to get depressed, go listen to 60 Minutes. Uh, because I listen to it, I don’t watch it. But anyways, uh, before we get to the end of discussion, Yes. Uh, you and I are going to be at Zibby’s tomorrow, sweetie.
Cathy: Yeah, so we’re going to be at Zibby’s Bookshop tomorrow in, um, Santa Monica, California.
Cathy: So if you are somebody who’s listening to us or have listened to us for a long time and you live in California, Um, we’re going to be there talking about restoring our girls at 9 a. m. on Wednesday. Um, and
Todd: say the date just so people don’t show
Cathy: up. What’s today? Today is the 25th. So the [00:08:00] 26th.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: So February 26th at the it’s a Wednesday 9 a.
Cathy: m. in California, Santa Monica, Zibi’s bookshop. So we will be there. What’s this? Oh, we’re going to California. Correct. Just a brief stop over.
Todd: Sweetie, what album is off? I
Cathy: don’t know what album is off.
Todd: I believe it’s led up on four. Yeah. I would’ve had to just text Jazz Black Dog and Stairway and Going to California and many other wonderful songs. So probably the most beloved, huh? Oh,
Cathy: California With a Kin,
Todd: sweetie. I hope you don’t have an kin in your heart when you’re going to Cal.
Todd: I
Cathy: think that it’ll obviously be the first time going to California since the fires. Um, so I’m sure there’s a lot we’re going to see. Um, but anyway, so please come. And if you Todd, will you put it in the show notes? Uh, sure. So Todd, we’ll put a link in the show notes so you can click on it and see.
Todd: And you have, so we have this thing called team Zen.
Todd: It’s a monthly subscription. You pay [00:09:00] whatever it is, 20 bucks a month. You get access to Kathy and I, we do a zoom thing. Twice a month. Zoom thing means we do a q and a, a zoom meet, a zoom meeting, you get support, whatever. And uh, you also do a women’s group. Uhhuh . And that’s March 5th. If you’re interested in joining Team Zen, go ahead and click on the show notes below.
Cathy: Yeah, I love talking to the women. We talk once a month. We, so if you need women community, this is the way to
Todd: get it.
Cathy: This is a way to get it because we build each other up and make sure that we’re hearing each other. So, as opposed to the women in the White Lotus last night. Yes. Well, I mean, let’s just say I know that that’s going to go bad.
Todd: So we listened to the second episode of the third season of White Lotus. We watched. Sorry, we watched. And just a lot of, um, I don’t know. Backstabbing is, is overreaching. That’s
Cathy: what I was going to say. You can’t. Backtalking. You can’t. Say anything yet. I was feeding you some information. Like I said, in the very first episode, these women do not like each other because I can tell by the way that women [00:10:00] talk to each other, if they’re being kind of standoffish and making sure that they make their points or if they’re actually hearing each other and caring about each other.
Cathy: And they were just too adamant about what good friends they were. There was a way too much like, we’re my best friends forever. Um, you know, that
Todd: reminded me of this sketch on, uh, SNL. Um, I’m just going to play a little clip of it
Cathy: documentaries and they don’t even give me a free membership.
Todd: These are the two that would pretend to be Lorne Michaels friends, uh, Fred Armisen and what is it?
Todd: Vanessa Bayer. Yeah. And they talk about. You know, certain things and then they whisper the honest, truthful. So
Cathy: basically they’re like, we’re Lauren Michael’s best friend because they did the SNL 50th, you know, anniversary and they’re like, Oh yeah, we love him. He’s our best friend. And then when they whisper and then they’re like,
I can barely hear you, but it sounds like you have a deeply dysfunctional relationship with him.
No, no, no, no, no, no. It’s kind of like how you feel about Colin and Che. Oh, come on. No, I love [00:11:00] Colin and Che. They’re the best. I will say, like, I do feel like their chemistry is like,
Cathy: So that’s a little bit what the, the ladies are like on, um, on white lotus, but they are not the worst characters. I mean, they are at least doing their, I mean, I’m sure things are going to get heavy, but I would say the, the men that we’re being introduced to are not quite as standup ish either.
Todd: Everybody’s awful on that show, except for like two characters. But, but, but I will say, I
will say,
Todd: um, the whole idea of like women talking bad about each other. It’s not a women thing. It’s a human being thing. It’s not women do not dominate saying one thing and then saying something else to some to. Uh, to somebody else about that person, gossip, whatever it is.
Todd: It’s not a woman thing. No. Guys are as bad as the girls.
Cathy: And they may do it in a different way. Yeah. They may say different things or like, but I would not want to [00:12:00] contribute to the stereotype that women are any worse at that. Um, because. I
Todd: remember my stepdad, Rich Ghilarducci, rest in peace. He’s. been gone 21 years, but he said his friends are the worst, right?
Todd: They’re the worst. They just talk about people. They just talk about,
Cathy: you know, judging and, and like, and I think what might be the difference is what we’re being judged about. You know what I mean? Like just taking the, the women on the white Lotus, they’re talking about. their appearance or what plastic surgery they’ve had or what kind of money they have.
Cathy: And one of their friends, they’re just, this is a thing too. It’s three women.
Yeah.
Cathy: Which creates a triangulation, right? Um, so it’s like, if you don’t know how to manage that, if you are not on each other’s sides and have each other’s backs, it can really like bite you. So like, as soon as one person goes to bed, the other two like kind of talk.
Cathy: Right. About the other person. And then, um, there’s a lot of like, you’re so pretty, you’re so pretty. And then they like, don’t comment on the third. Yeah. And they’re like, Oh, [00:13:00] you work so hard. Right. That’s their commenter. So lots of relationship stuff on the White Lotus. And you know, I gotta say one thing that I remembered.
Cathy: Is that the White Lotus doesn’t, like, give us a lot of justice at the end.
No.
Cathy: Like, so we kind of have to walk through the story of people, and Mike White, who does the show, he’s not someone who’s like, oh, and then everybody gets their due deal, their due justice. It
Todd: doesn’t work that way. No, it’s not tied up in a nice bow at the end.
Cathy: You know, sometimes there’s a character or two, but no.
Todd: Before we get into it, can I just give you a little more taste of Fred and other ladies? I guess so. Okay. Okay.
Cathy: And then he starts pointing at paintings and saying like, Oh, this is from Steve. This is from Paul. This is from Mick.
Yeah. And it’s like, does he mean Mick Jagger?
Just to say it. I’m
Todd: sorry. You guys have to speak up. I just think that, that, that. Those two are hilarious. It was a, it was a good bit. It [00:14:00] was good. You got to watch the whole thing. Uh, end of discussion, sweetie.
Cathy: So I wanted to talk about the, let’s just talk about thought terminating cliches first, because I wrote a sub stack last week about how we.
Cathy: Okay. Let me say this first. I’m going to back up. I wrote a proposal. I’ve talked about this before about cults and high control groups and, um, back it up cults, high control groups, and abusive relationships. I wrote a full proposal, like 40 pages. I worked hard, went away for the weekend, figured it out. And it got rejected because there was like, this is not what your area of expertise is, even though I kind of feel like it is these days, but it’s not to the big world because that’s not.
Cathy: I’m not, I didn’t go to school for criminology or something. So. So what I did, what I did do though, when I wrote restoring your girls, which is much more about my expertise and what I do every day is I made sure that I used what I learned [00:15:00] about or research or experienced in my, um, you know, cult high control group.
Cathy: proposal and put it into restoring our girls.
Todd: Is it under the encourage critical thinking part of it?
Cathy: And I wrote a whole thing about encouraging critical thinking and why it’s so important and red flags and, um, talking to kids about high control groups and when, how you talk to them and how you listen to them to encourage critical thinking.
Cathy: And so I didn’t, I didn’t go in deep in the book about. Thought terminating cliches, but I wanted to talk about that in sub stack because it can be a red flag and indicator that you are having conversation with somebody who wants to either control the conversation, stop the conversation, or like completely keep you from sharing.
Cathy: Or thinking for yourself.
Todd: So last week, before we press record on our Zen talk, our Zen talk is our parenting community. You and I were having a discussion. I don’t remember [00:16:00] what it was about, which I think is probably a good thing. But I said,
Cathy: Oh, I know.
Todd: Pretend I never said, forget I said anything. Yes. But
Cathy: I came downstairs and Todd said to me, um, he said, I said, I have a haircut and then I have.
Cathy: I have to go see Jen. I had like a list of three things and you go, Oh, you’re doing a lot of self care. And it’s, it’s somewhat of a benign statement, but it kind of struck me as like, I was doing all these things to just like feel good. And I was like, no, these are things I have to do. Like things I’ve scheduled reasons that I’m doing these things just like, and so he right away, he put up his hands.
Cathy: He’s like, forget I said anything. We’re
Todd: about to press record. Like we don’t have time to. Get into this. So
Cathy: I, I agree. We’re going to, and we’re doing it right now. I mean, it’s not that I wanted to have an argument. It’s not me, but it’s not me trying to be like, you’re wrong. And let me tell you why, but the way that it came off to me sounded like flippant.
Cathy: Like, oh, mom’s going to have a self care day, [00:17:00] and that’s not what it was at all. Now, that’s not what you meant. Right. We, we’ve talked this through since, but right, right when I pushed back and said, well, that’s not exactly what it is, you said, forget I said anything.
Todd: Well, yeah, and it’s not as much about, you know, my comment about it’s a self care day.
Todd: It’s more about what I said after that, which is forget I said anything. Lines up with what it is that we’re talking. It’s a thought
Cathy: terminating cliche because basically he’s saying I’m not going to hear you I’m not whatever you’re about to say. I’m not interested And you’re basically just the way that you know, when someone puts up their hands They’re like i’m done with you
Todd: bottom line is I take the wrong time to say that thing because you were just finishing up writing that blog or in the middle of it.
Cathy: I was in the middle of it and I go, wow, you just gave me a thought terminating cliche.
Todd: And I’m like, that’s a lot of syllables and I don’t know what you just said.
Cathy: Because how do I continue to, and again, we’re over this by the way, there’s not a lot of emotion around this. How do I continue saying what I need to say when he says, forget I said anything.
Cathy: So basically what he’s done is said, I’m, that’s the [00:18:00] end of the discussion. I’m not going to listen just like you’re entitled to your opinion. Or, you know, let’s agree to disagree. The, these are, so basically something that I wrote is a thought terminating cliche and critical thinking exist on opposite ends of the spectrum.
Todd: Say that one more time.
Cathy: Well, I’m not, I’m not even done with what I’m saying. Thought terminating cliches and critical thinking are on opposite ends of the spectrum. One shuts down thought while the other encourages curiosity. Okay. So a thought terminating cliche, the whole. The whole idea of it, the whole point of it is to stop the conversation or to stop having you think.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: Yeah. Okay.
Todd: It’s more like thought terminating discussion is I’m closed.
Cathy: I’m done. Yeah.
Todd: Store is closed. And then the opposite critical thinking is I’m open.
Cathy: I’m open. And it doesn’t mean let’s have a two hour long conversation. Like that’s the thing is we get to, um, Binary about either [00:19:00] we’re going to talk about this for hours and hours, or I’m going to shut this down right now.
Cathy: There’s all these places in the middle of we can talk about this for five minutes and pick it up later. We can talk about it for two minutes and be done and both feel heard. We can, you know, have a discussion that’s ongoing because it’s hard to solve it in one, you know, iteration of the conversation that the point is, is recognizing like, as Todd and I talk about these thought terminating cliches, I want you to see yourself.
Cathy: Number one, because we all use them, you know what I mean? This is not like only cults use these, everybody uses them. This is what you’re seeing on TV when people yell and say, well, that means you want to kill babies. So that is a, that is a way of stopping the conversation, because how do you say anything after that, that lines up with that comment?
Cathy: Because you, you sound, you know, no matter what you say, you’re like, Oh, are you avoiding that? Are you not saying, you know, so the whole goal of that is to keep people from thinking critically.
Todd: What’s interesting [00:20:00] is I’m just going to be, because you have like 10 examples in your sub stack. And if you don’t subscribe to Kathy’s sub stack, you’re missing out because she works really hard on that.
Todd: And it’s really good stuff. Um, the statements themselves can be seen through the lens of, and maybe you’ve already said this, but not that bad of a thing. Like there’s, You know, if you’re like really highly energized with somebody that you debate, whether it’s Cubs versus Sox, let’s say, and you’re just not getting anywhere, agree to disagree could be a productive thing to say in a conversation, or it could be the worst thing in the world.
Todd: to say in a discussion. Um, so it’s a, it’s a nuance of it.
Cathy: It, it is very nuanced and I agree with that and that’s why like the beginning of my sub stack I give the ones that are most common and not so harmful.
Yeah.
Cathy: You know, but they’re still, so, if someone was discussing Cubs and Sox, have they been like discussing this their whole lives, where they’ve been like, This is, you know, this stadium is [00:21:00] better and this coach is better.
Cathy: And this history is better and they have all that information. And they’re like, okay, let’s just agree to disagree because all the information is on the table, right? Really? They’re just having an old fight. That’s a very different thing. But if we’re like coming to somebody with an opinion or something that we are experiencing for the first time, or something that we really need to discuss, like us, you know, like a, our kid comes home and says, you know what, I have been doing basketball and I decided I don’t want to do.
Cathy: You know, a winter sport or whatever it may be. And we’re like, well, sorry, let’s just agree to disagree on this one. Cause you’re going to keep going. There’s no discussion about why, where that came up, what they might be doing in place of it, if they need rest, if mental health is an issue, like that is a just shutting down, that’s basically, I’m going to win and you’re going to lose.
Cathy: I
Todd: wish I had a sound effect, like, like there’s like, I think of like a, a buzzer in a basketball game, like. And when you hear that sound, everything’s off the table. We’re done. We’re done.
Cathy: And this, [00:22:00] again, I’m going to keep bringing it back to the news and things we watch on TV, because that’s very relevant because we’re like, why am I feeling so uncomfortable here?
Cathy: Why is this conversation not going anywhere? It’s because everyone’s using thought terminating cliches. Nobody is really curious. Everybody is trying to get everyone else to think like they do and to make them feel dumb about the way they think. So. That, like I, like I said, this is used in, you know, high level in organizations.
Cathy: This is used in cults. This is used in high control groups. This is used in religious groups. And again, a lot of these are overlapping things, but it’s a way of basically saying to you. I know more than you or don’t quit talking to me because I’m not interested. So, you know, just as an example, I, I don’t know if I’ll get through all these, but let’s agree to disagree something we can say back, you know, if, if it’s not about cubs and socks or something, not that big of a deal is I totally respect that.
Cathy: Um, I’d like to know more about what you think and if you’re up for it, so you don’t have [00:23:00] to accommodate that thought terminating cliche. Now you may say. I get that. I know we disagree, but I’d still like to continue this conversation. They may say, no, it may not happen. You have to know when to walk away.
Cathy: In no way am I saying in this sub stack, keep pushing until you get your needs met. What I’m saying is there are things we can say to keep that, you know, from going in the direction where we feel like we have no voice. It’s very similar to you’re entitled to your opinion.
Todd: Hold on. I want to put it when you say one of the.
Todd: Terminating cliches. I’m trying to find a basketball buzzer. Okay, let’s
Cathy: hear the buzzers.
Todd: That’s a good one. You like that one? We’ll just go with that one. So whenever you say whenever you say one of those, I’m just gonna play that song.
Cathy: Okay, so the next one that we’ll talk about is you’re entitled to your opinion.
Cathy: Which it is nuanced because there can be times when saying that if it’s not said with a snarky tone again, remember, everything is about tone. Um, it might, but it might sound open minded, but really what you’re doing is [00:24:00] instead of listening to somebody, somebody else’s ideas, you’re just, it’s an easy way out,
Todd: right?
Todd: What is it? It’s not the content because you are, we all are entitled to our opinion. There’s 100 percent truth in that. And the context is. Um, I’m closing you off, correct? We’re done.
Cathy: And one of the most important parts of this one, or at least what I see the most with you’re entitled to your opinion is it gives that person the ability to not hear anything new because if they hear something new, if they say, Oh, you’re entitled to your opinion, I’ll keep my own.
Cathy: It could cause cognitive dissonance, which is that. When new information challenges your beliefs and you’re like, not quite sure how to rest in your beliefs when you’re hearing new information.
Todd: What’s an easier way of saying cognitive dissonance? Cause it seems very fancy.
Cathy: Well, I just explained it in
Todd: a phrase.
Todd: Is there like a two word thing of what cognitive dissonance means?
Cathy: Cognitive dissonance is when you’re holding two contradictory beliefs.
Todd: Okay.
Cathy: You know what I mean? All [00:25:00] right. Like that. And, and the, and some people, I think that wisdom. Is the ability to do that is to handle the fact that not everything is clean, cut black and white, that there is a spectrum, you know, that is wisdom to me.
Cathy: That’s, but to some people that’s discomfort and lack of certainty. And most people are very uncomfortable with lack of certain certainty.
Yeah. And so it scares us.
Cathy: It scares them. So they’re kind of like, you’re entitled to your opinion, but, and so something we could say back is. Well, I appreciate that.
Cathy: I’d love to understand more about your perspective too, to keep the conversation going. If you so choose, if you’re done, walk away. Okay. So Todd, one of my favorites, do you have your buzzer ready? Um, I am going to have it ready right now. Okay. So this one is really, uh, it’s fairly recent. Uh, I’ve heard it a lot in the past five years and it’s when you start to tell someone something new or ask a question and they say, do your research.[00:26:00]
Todd: Do your research.
Cathy: Do your research is such a annoying, um, comment because basically it’s a passive aggressive way to stop the conversation when someone doesn’t agree or when someone doesn’t share the same beliefs. And instead of offering something like that someone could really like learn from, you’re basically putting all the onus on the other person.
Cathy: So what do you
Todd: say instead of do your research?
Cathy: Uh, the thing that I wrote, cause I had to think really deeply about these, like, what do you say back that is real? Cause you know, I get on your case all the time about, would someone really say that?
Todd: Oh yeah, sweetie. I’m always on
Cathy: your case. Well, yeah,
Todd: like, I don’t know.
Todd: You just care more about the words and the, the, um, precision of it. Yeah. And I, I feel like you’re more about the trees and I’m about the forest.
Cathy: I get it. Who cares? Well. We have to care because you like to talk in, in, not all the time, I’m going to, you know, make sure I say this [00:27:00] without, there are times when I, you, there are times when you speak things that are not genuine ways that people would talk.
Cathy: So when you’re offering like a, you know, a thing, like just say. How, and you know, it’s funny, men living, you may talk like that. Like it’s just in regular conversation. Do we really say to somebody, Hey, stop, you know, I want you to check out in your body where you’re feeling that. And you know, that’s not how we talk to people in coaching you do, but it’s like not conversational.
Cathy: And so I like to. When I’m offering something to people, be really genuine. Like, how could you say this to your kid in a real way? Or how could you say this to your partner in a real way? Because as soon as you start to pull out and you’re, you’re not using jargon as, you know, really,
Todd: where are you feeling that your body is not jargon, but it’s certainly not what, how most of us talk to each other.
Cathy: No.
Todd: And, and it would turn people off. So what’s it, and I know we’re totally off track here, but what is a different way of saying, cause if you say how you, if [00:28:00] I’m trying to like tap into body intelligence, Which I am, which I’m not that good at, and most of the guys that I work with are not that good at because that gets beat out of us when we’re four years old.
Todd: What’s another, what’s one or two other ways of saying, where do you feel that in your body?
Cathy: Well, again, I think I want to differentiate because In a conversation when you’re coaching someone, you can just say it like that.
Todd: Right, but let’s say you and I are, you’re having sadness.
Cathy: Okay, so I would probably say something like, really what I would say in that conversation is when I feel this way, my chest hurts.
Cathy: And then I would say, do you feel, when you feel grief, do you feel it in your chest too or is it somewhere else? Yeah. Because that’s more, it’s not so much an easier on ramp. It is. And that’s, I think how people really talk to each other. Yeah. And I think when people get annoyed at other people, especially if you have friends who are therapists or wellness practitioners, you don’t want them talking to you and they’re like therapists.
Cathy: Yeah. You want to have conversation speak.
Yeah.
Cathy: Um, so, you know, that’s the thing is like [00:29:00] you saying certain things isn’t bad per se. It’s just, when are we saying them and to who? And if someone says, you know, If someone is deflecting and they’re saying, do your research and they’re, they’re over, that’s thought terminating, cliche, end of discussion.
Cathy: You know, we can say something like, I am always open to learning. What information do you think I’m missing? So then hold on. Let me
Todd: give you a clap for that. That way people know when the good, when
Cathy: the good
Todd: thing, the positive thing.
Cathy: So it’s, yeah, it’s just a way of like, if you’re not ready to end that conversation or if someone’s saying, do your research to be like, okay, I just won, that’s such a, it’s such a thought terminating cliche people.
Cathy: So those of you who are listening, who says, who say to people, do your research, it’s, you, you gotta give more than that. You either have to be willing to listen. to what this other person’s experience is, or really share, this is something very specific I learned, and here’s where I learned it. And hopefully it’s not from
Todd: conspiracy places.
Todd: And this is probably kept an obvious, [00:30:00] but like, okay, why is this important? Why did you decide to write a blog about this? Why are we doing a podcast on it? And I think the answer is, you know, This is all about connecting with other human beings. And if you find yourself using these thought terminating cliches, and then you’re like, God, I just can’t connect with my wife.
Todd: Like, well, maybe that’s one of the reasons why it’s happening.
Cathy: Perfect. Yeah, like there’s always like kind of levels and levels and levels of why Todd and I talk about things because it’s not just one specific thing. I believe that one of our biggest problems now and has been for years is our inability to hear each other, right?
Cathy: And not in a way where we let people dump a bunch of toxic Crap on us. Like there, there’s nuance in this too. Like if someone is coming after me and you know, it’s just yelling and fear and anger, I don’t believe I need to be in that conversation. But if I am having a conversation with someone who does have information, I want to a not use thought terminating cliches myself and be recognized when they are [00:31:00] doing that because then maybe trying to pivot.
Cathy: In a different way, because sometimes they just, sometimes they’re used in families where people don’t even realize what they’re doing. It’s just things they say, um, it’s cultural, you know, like there’s ways that people, there’s just ways that people talk and they don’t even realize to your point that you’re stopping the discussion
Todd: by what you just said.
Todd: And the reason we stop it, the reason I stopped it last week is because I was probably a mixture of scared and angry. Well, you were sick.
Cathy: You weren’t feeling very
Todd: good and
Cathy: you just didn’t want to deal with it in that moment. And that is fair. Like there’s nothing, like I said, it’s not like I was angry at that.
Cathy: It’s just what that does. So from your perspective, you’re like, I’m done. I’m sick. I don’t want to deal with this. But for someone like me, who my more, uh, the thing that challenges me the most is when I don’t feel like I’m heard, you know, it’s, it feels like it’s a little bit of a slap on the wrist to me.
Cathy: Yeah. Like quit. Quit doing your woman thing. And I’m making that up. You did not say [00:32:00] that. That’s just what it triggers inside of
Todd: me. What if, and I don’t know if this would have landed better, but I can say, you know what, honey, I just, I got no energy and I chose my words poorly. That wasn’t cool. And can we forget, I said that.
Todd: And, uh, that’s probably a little bit better than what they said.
Cathy: Well, and that’s the thing is you don’t have to be like, this is so difficult because yeah, it’s not you’re wrong for saying self care. What an awful thing. And you should have known. It’s more like, okay, I’m hearing that the words I just chose hit you in some way.
Cathy: So I’m going to try different words because all I’m really trying to do is say, oh, you’re going to do these
Todd: things. Right. And to do that. would take work from me, right. I was unwilling to do in that moment. Right. Um, so anyways,
Cathy: well, and this is the discussion, you know, we’ve been talking a lot since the conference about, and in my, in my book, I talk a lot about adapting.
Cathy: And one of the things that I believe and that I’ve experienced in my work as a therapist is that women [00:33:00] are very astute at adapting. And, um, you know, again, it’s not. A general blanket rule for all women. It’s just because we’ve been forced to adapt in so many situations, you know, if it be what we wear, what we look like, how we experience the workforce, what kind of, you know, our shifts in parenting, our adapting has been expected for decades and decades and decades, decades.
Cathy: I think one of the challenges that is facing men right now, and I’m obviously talking to Todd and a lot of the men who are in men living and other people that we know is this. Adapting issue is that as culture changes, there is a belief that they shouldn’t have to change and there’s a pushback right now.
Cathy: We’re seeing it from our government and from people who are in charge right now saying we don’t have to do anything different. We’re going to keep it status quo. We like it
Todd: back in the old days. We,
Cathy: we want to go back. We want to make it great the way it was before, whatever that means. And we are not going to adapt.
Cathy: You are not going to tell me what I should call [00:34:00] you. You’re not going to tell me what words I can use. And there’s an inability to adapt to a new culture. And so it instead, you know, as in Duffy’s books, he always talks about it, becomes men who are like, I don’t know who to be in this culture. I don’t know how to interact.
Cathy: I don’t know what to say. I don’t know what to do. And while I have total compassion for that, especially, you know, those of you who have sons or partners who are like, they, they’re struggling, but this culturally is a moment of, of adapting for men, not adapting, like in a way where they’re not still important.
Cathy: They don’t lose themselves, lose themselves. They just start to learn new ways of compassion and evolve and evolve and learn new, new types of work they can do. And And be open to understanding people a little differently and in relating to why people get hurt by certain things. And that is right now, if you’re in a conversation with people about that, there’s plenty of thought terminating cliches, like that’s woke culture.
Cathy: As Jane Fonda said last night in her speech at the SAG [00:35:00] Awards, basically being awake just means that you care about people. But, somebody got a hold of that somebody. Lots of people got a hold of that word and made it a negative thing. As soon as they say, I’m not going to listen to you, that’s just woke culture.
Cathy: That is the end of the discussion. It’s a
weapon.
Cathy: It’s a weapon. They weaponize it. And so, You know, these are kind of the, this conversation, this very small one that Todd and I had, it was just, it was bad timing, but good timing for what we were going to talk about. Usually
Todd: something good comes from it.
Todd: Yeah. It’s just in the moment, it blows chunks.
Cathy: Exactly. It’s just in the moment. And then, and I also can be like, I know that I’m. triggered by those. I know that I don’t like when I’m working or managing or creating or writing and someone’s like, Oh, you’re going to go have a self care day. And I’m like, no, that’s not what I’m doing.
Cathy: You know, I’m trying to take care of myself. I’m trying to do, you know, like it, it, and that’s not what you meant. It’s what hit me. Yeah,
Todd: there, there’s a There’s some ownership for both of us,
Cathy: correct? Exactly. Okay. So let’s just move into when these happen in [00:36:00] social control. Let’s do it. For example, at a workplace, when somebody says something like, you know, maybe you’re upset about something or something’s not working.
Cathy: And someone says, just be a team player.
Cathy: Again, nuanced. There are times when we need to be team players. Like it’s not, you know, if you’re on a basketball team, you can’t be like, I’m going to just sit this one out. Like you may need to be out there on the basketball court, you know, but there are also times when maybe you’re bringing up something that really is, you know, something that’s not working well, or the numbers are wrong.
Cathy: Sometimes
Todd: we need you not to be a, sometimes an organization, a family, a community. Being a team player means going along with everything. Yeah. And, and if everything is bad, then you, it’s not good to be a team player.
Cathy: Right. If you are going along with something that you feel like is going against your values, your, your morals, your character.
Cathy: Or that’s an indicator that’s a, that’s a flag for you to say that. And so something you can say when someone says be a team player is I’m [00:37:00] totally ready to be a team player, but I think discussing these different ideas might be able to help.
Todd: I like sound effect. I
Cathy: know it’s either make me laugh. Okay. So another one that happens when it comes to social control, maybe in the workplace, or maybe this happens with partners and with kids is when someone, when you’re sharing all these ideas and someone says you’re overthinking it. So overthinking it, yes, some, I am an external processor, I talk a lot, and sometimes I know that it’s like, okay, Todd will be like, go back to your first point, like, I do know that, and then there are times that we have to understand how, why going through all these steps and stages of talking is important, that things are not black and white, they’re not cut and dry, it’s like, we got to consider this, and we got to consider this, and so when someone says you’re overthinking it, We can say, I need time to think this through to stay clear headed, like I need time.
Cathy: Oh,
sorry. That’s okay. Keep going. Premature clap. Say it one more time. I’m sorry.
Cathy: I need time to think this through [00:38:00] to stay clear headed and find the best solution. Well,
Todd: and through this specific lens is really good. I’m thinking when, when you say that phrase, I think it’s such a wonderful tool in a relationship because most of the time where we get in trouble, where I get in trouble, I’ll use an I statement.
Todd: is when I’m really triggered and reactive. And if I can use that phrase that you just said, it’s like, hey, give me a minute. I need to like collect myself and think about what the next best thing I can say in this moment is. But most of us don’t do that. No. We’re just like, all right, let’s, let’s get into it.
Todd: Let’s dig our heels in.
Cathy: Right. And the, and saying you’re overthinking it is basically the indicator in that is you are neurotic. You are, you are spiraling, you are processing too much, or you’re making a big deal out of nothing. Like, the underlying belief, below your overthinking it, is stop thinking.
Yeah.
Cathy: Which, what is critical thinking? To think. It’s thinking. It’s [00:39:00] thinking through, and it’s okay! to take your time. Like, and yes, again, on opposite ends of the spectrum, there’s extremes. There’s some people who go get so stuck in their thinking they can’t make a decision and that’s often anxiety based and that’s something they need support with.
Cathy: That’s the inability to like pull the trigger, right? Like make the decision. But then when someone tells you when you’re, when you’re trying to get a clear head and they tell you to stop getting a clear head, that’s not great. Okay, so let’s get into the gender norms, Todd. Let’s hear it. So, boys will be boys.
Cathy: That’s a bad boy. It like fades out into the distance. Yeah. So, boys will be boys is so common and people say it all the time in different ways, um, which basically means boys have bad behavior, but that’s just boys. Um, we don’t, I mean, maybe some people say girls will be girls, but I don’t hear that very much.
Cathy: That is not as common in this culture. Not as common because really girls have to accommodate and adapt and show up. So that’s not, they don’t get [00:40:00] to just be girls. They have to,
Todd: I have that wonderful t shirt that says boys will be boys. And the boys is crossed out and says, good human,
Cathy: right? And you know, the, when people say that basically what they’re doing is excusing bad behavior, right?
Todd: Can I tell a quick story? Remember me and a bunch of my neighborhood kids, this was like when I was 12 years old, um, We got in trouble. I don’t know what it was for. Um, but my mom did the thing where she knocked on all the parents doors to tell them what happened, which is like the worst moment in most of our adolescent history.
Todd: And I remember there was, uh, it was Stevie Cooper and his dad answered the door. Stevie Cooper got in trouble and my mom’s like, Hey, just so you know, Stevie was part of this group that did this thing and that’s exactly what he said. He said, boys will be boys. Yeah. And my mom, I don’t know what my mom said, but I’m sure she just turned around and got back in the car.
Cathy: And we have to understand how, how we’ve ingested that over our lifetime. And so sometimes many of us will be like, it’s [00:41:00] really not that big of a deal because we’ve, we’ve swallowed that for so long that there is a belief that boys just can’t help their bad behavior.
Todd: When I feel the need to say, I can give you 15 different examples of how Boys will be boys and the opposite of that, of what the meaning of that statement is, which means just gentle, nurturing, beautiful human beings.
Todd: And then I turn on the TV and it’s MMA and these two women are destroying each other. So I think it’s important to out the opposites of these cliches or these thought terminating.
Cathy: And that is important because I do the same thing whenever you’re, I always say, but let’s not, you know, stereotype women.
Cathy: And you’re saying, let’s not stereotype men, but sometimes that, but sometimes that conversation could be thought terminating right there where you’ll say men, you know, boys will be boys. Well, boys will be boys also means that there’ll be human beings. That stops the conversation too, because that’s, then I have to pull out all the stuff [00:42:00] around.
Todd: Then you have to bring out your research.
Cathy: Then I have to bring out my research and be like, well, let’s look at stats here. What do we mostly mean when we say boys are boys? It’s about the way they treat people. It’s about the way they may destroy things. It’s about the way they talk to people. And it’s not about those things that you’re just talking about.
Cathy: That would be nice. But really what we’d say then is these boys are, you know, we’d be more specific. Right? Yeah. Um, so it, it, you didn’t do that, but we can find ourselves doing that because we want to make the other point.
Sure.
Cathy: You know? So, you know, the thing we can say back is when someone says, boys will be boys, we can say, boys are learning just like everyone else and they benefit from our guidance.
Cathy: That’s right. There’s no reason to not tell them that that’s cruel or you messed things up or clean that up. It’s
Todd: an opportunity for growth. It’s an opportunity to, to teach, to nurture, to, I don’t know.
Cathy: And shouldn’t the expectations of [00:43:00] boys around humanity be the same?
Yeah.
Cathy: Because right now it doesn’t feel like they are.
No.
Cathy: You know, the expectations is just around money and power and, you know, like that. And again, generally. Yep. And the, we have to have different expectations. Um, so, and then another one, this kind of happens in partnership a lot. That’s how things have always been, you know. For example, if you’re talking about something with equality, like who’s going to stay home or who’s going to work or, you know, um, who’s going to clean the house or, and then someone’s like, well, that’s just the way things have always been.
Todd: That’s the way things have always been is probably one of the worst phrases in the English. And I, and I’m sure I probably used it. Well, this is, this is the way things are, but that’s like, and I’m sure there’s even movie quotes, like that is never a reason to ever do anything,
right?
Todd: We should always be discerning, right?
Todd: I should always be questioning. Is this the right thing or the wrong thing to do?
Cathy: Well, and that’s it right there, Todd, is that traditions are meaningful, but it’s also important to ask if they’re still serving us like [00:44:00] things that we. used to do or the way things have been. Are they serving us now? Is that working?
Cathy: Because like, if someone said that in a marriage, like it’s just the way things have always, the way things. Always have been, then it’d be like, but is that working for us? Because I feel like we’re in a fight about this all the time. So anyway, so how about let’s go to, let’s jump to the last couple.
Cathy: Everything happens for a reason. So again, this is a nuanced one because people who use that. Are trying to reassure. I don’t think anyone’s using that to be harmful, but the problem is why it’s a thought terminating cliche is the person who hears it then feels like they shouldn’t question the unfairness or the injustice, right?
Cathy: So, you know, it’s difficult to have like a, an emotional response after someone says that, because then you feel like you’re disappointing people.
Todd: Well, and I feel like I took, I would take that in a different direction. The whole idea of everything happens for a reason. For some reason, I think of something bad happening to me.
Yeah.
Todd: And a friend trying to comfort me saying, well, [00:45:00] everything happens for a reason, or like, you know, what’s the lesson that you could learn from this? And it bypasses the experience of feeling whatever it is that just happens. Exactly. It’s one of those spiritual bypass things. It keeps
Cathy: them from having to hear.
Cathy: how you’re feeling about it. It’s like a, if they just, it’s a spiritual bypass. It’s like, let’s just jump over how you feel and let’s just assume that it happened because it was supposed to. We may get to that point, like if you go through the stages of grief, the last stage of grief that’s been included, um, with Elizabeth Kubler Ross’s blessing.
Cathy: David Kessler came up with something called meaning. So after the five stages, the last one is meaning and you find meaning for the grief that you went through. Sure. But you have to go through a bunch of stages. Yeah.
Todd: And what this does, it supersedes all of that stuff and gets the meaning out of it.
Todd: Correct. So,
Cathy: um, so now here’s an interesting one, Todd, we can use thought terminating cliches against ourself. Like we can say ourselves, we can say something like, I’m just not good at this. Or that’s just who I [00:46:00] am, right? So these are us reinforcing limiting beliefs before we’ve even tried something new.
Todd: And when I hear that one, it, it, I think of like a seven year old who just had a crappy basketball practice and they just say, I’m not that good at this. And they’re like crying because everybody else, or they didn’t make the team. And you know, there’s space for that. Like yes. Feel your feelings. And if you want to get better, then let’s go to the gym more often or something like that.
Cathy: Yeah. And it’s kind of maybe in that moment, let them have that feeling. Like you said, if it’s a kid, see, it’s almost like I can’t use thought terminating cliches with kids. Cause kids have limited language, knowledge, wisdom, experience, abstract thinking. So we’re not going to blame them. By
Todd: the way, so do.
Todd: Most grownups.
Cathy: Well, yeah, but kids, I’m not going to say to a kid, you just used a thought term, cliche. I’m going to say, of course you feel that way. I’m going to give
Todd: me an adult version of I’m just not good at this.
Cathy: Oh, I mean, as a therapist, I hear things like that all the time. Like I say it about cooking.
Todd: I [00:47:00] say it about, I’ll
Cathy: say I’m just not that good at it.
Todd: I say it about my body intelligence. Like I’m just not going to feel my feelings.
Cathy: Correct. You say it all the time. Or people will say, sometimes people will be like, Oh, I was rude to you. Well, that’s just who I am. I just speak, you know, I’m just say what I need.
Cathy: I need to say. And instead of recognizing the impact it’s having and you, and the impact it’s having on you yourself when you’re being self critical and the impact you’re having on other people by supposedly being the way you are, because the whole idea of being a human being is evolving and adapting.
Cathy: And if we’re just digging our heels in, then, you know, it’s, it’s again. So again, something we can say back. To I’m just not that good at this is you are still learning. That’s how we get good. You know,
Todd: um, for some reason you just said, um, that why are you the way you are? And it just reminded me of
why are you the way that you are?
Honestly, every time I try to do something fun or exciting. You make it not that way. [00:48:00] I hate so much about the things that you choose to be.
Todd: That is just one of the best relationships, Michael and Toby.
Cathy: Toby, poor Toby. Toby’s not happy. I don’t, and I know he’s fine. He’s a writer and he’s. Good. He writes his own thing and
Todd: he’s a character and he’s not real, sweetie.
Todd: So just so you know,
Cathy: I know it’s just someone who’s, he’s struggling. I think he’s gone through a divorce. He’s, you know, got this picture of his kid in his office and he likes Pam and she obviously doesn’t like him. And you know, he’s the human resources person. That’s very hard to be HR. Those of you who are listening or in HR, I see you, I know, cause you have to handle everybody’s problems and it’s hard.
Cathy: So anyway, um,
Todd: can I just give you a little more Toby?
Cathy: Sure.
Todd: Sorry. So do we need to. So let’s just wait and see what happens when Jim and Pam are
Cathy: saying they have a relationship.
Todd: Oh, Toby, hold on [00:49:00] one more.
Todd: He’s rubbing Kevin’s back.
Why?
Todd: Not good for the podcast. He, I think Toby just needs a hug.
Cathy: That’s what I mean is he’s lonely. He needs people.
Todd: Sorry. Okay. Last one. So
Cathy: saying that’s just who I am. We could say something like, yes, you’ve dealt with things like this way in the past, but that doesn’t mean you can’t try something new.
Cathy: So, okay, so I’m just going to do two more. Okay. Just to kind of keep this short. Um, I, I wanted to use thought terminating cliches that are used to silence women. Okay. Okay. And the most obvious ones are you’re too emotional and calm down. Obviously, those are used because we, uh, misogynistic type of thinking is that women are too irrational to have a conversation with.
Cathy: Okay. And so if we start by saying, just calm down, you’re crying, you know, why are you crying? Or I [00:50:00] can’t believe you’re doing this. Then right away, we’re just stopping any kind of discussion or inability for someone to share their feelings.
Todd: Well, and I’ll add to this, uh, you know, the number of parents that have told me slash us that their son is so easy and their daughters are so emotional.
Todd: And I almost always say, like, if you’re giving me a choice between two people, one who lets their emotions out and one who pushes them down. Give me the one that lets them out. I can work with that.
Cathy: Well, in the long run, like anything else, it’s healthier. Not only is there more of ability to connect and get and have an intimate relationship with your kid.
Cathy: Intimate meaning, like, really talking about what’s bothering them, so you get closer to them, you know them better, they trust you more. Um, they, you know, Those of you who have children who really don’t tell you anything and you’re like, well, they’re easy because they have no problems. You have to remember human beings, everybody’s struggling with things.
Cathy: So it’s like, and that doesn’t mean for those of you listening who are like, Oh, my son is 14 and they’re not telling me enough. It goes in [00:51:00] phases. It’s not going to be like, they’re going to tell you everything all the time. But are you, you’ve got to remember, are you responding with thought terminating cliches?
Cathy: Like, Oh boy, that’s a, you need to calm down first because right away they’re going to get defensive and shut down.
Todd: This is a bit of a sidebar, but I got a Marco Polo from a man in my life who has three daughters and he’s struggling cause I think his daughters are like nine and 11, two of his daughters are that, and he’s having a hard time navigating their fierce independence and rebellion and all that.
Todd: One is I normalized it, but then secondly is like, I want daughters that are rebellious. I want daughters that are independent. Now, as a dad, as a father of three daughters, there is an egoic or short term thinking part of me that’s, that when my kids are being rebellious, I just want them to fall in line, like go to bed.
Todd: Compliance. Compliance. Thank you. But everywhere else in the world, I want them to be rebellious and you can’t have one without the other.
Cathy: Well, and maybe the way you have to think about this as a [00:52:00] parent is that you, you want to, um, support their spiritedness and you want to support their questioning and try not to make it about them against you.
Cathy: Try to be someone who sees it and honors it. And you’re like, Oh, I see you. I see you. I love that. You know, that spirit in you, you can also say, we still need to go to bed at a certain time. I’m, you know, I, I totally understand that we’re going to talk about this, but then we eventually have to go to bed.
Cathy: If you support them going into the world that way and not make it about, Hey, you’re either spirited or you comply, those are hitting your kid against you. You want, and it’s the same thing in partnership. Like it’s easier to talk about this. It’s like when there is a fight or an argument, it’s the two of you.
Cathy: Against that. Yeah, it’s not you two against each other in the same boat. Yeah You two are trying to solve that together be on the same team and that’s what you can do with your kids too is when they’re coming to you and they’re They’re like and I don’t like this and I don’t like this be like, [00:53:00] oh, I get it Well, maybe and
Todd: maybe like the idea of like it’s time to go to bed You can’t stay up till midnight on a school night.
Todd: Like instead of me against you. It’s like Us and you having Uh, um, a better school day tomorrow. Exactly. You know what I mean?
Cathy: And that’s, and like you were just trying to give an example really quickly, but even saying to a kid, you know, go to bed. It’s a school night right away. They’re going to get pushback versus, uh, I can’t wait to get in bed because tomorrow is such a long day.
Cathy: I’m going to go lay down, like make going to bed. Something enjoyable, make something to bed, something that you, or on nights when you’re like, Oh, I just, it’s hard for me to go to bed sometimes, but I know I need to join them in that experience. And rather than, and again, with little, little kids, sometimes it has to be more cut dry, but as you said, nine and 11, which is when they’re, their brains are different.
Cathy: They do have the abstract thinking. They are trying to think for themselves. So anyway, so, um, I’m going to jump to. Parenting thought terminating cliches. We use in parenting and Todd, I’m going to give you [00:54:00] three doozies. Are you ready? Yep. Because I said, so life’s not fair. I’m going to give you four.
Cathy: You’re too young to understand. You’ll understand when you’re older.
All pretty
Cathy: bad. All pretty bad. Because it stops the conversation. That’s why we’re being very repetitive here. But people be like, well, it’s not that big of a deal. But if you say, because I said, so you’re basically you are teaching them.
Cathy: It’s a classic response, but it’s like a way you think you’re reinforcing boundaries. But really what you’re doing is you’re teaching obedience and telling them not to question anything. Okay. Life’s not fair. It, it can sound like a practical thing to say, but it actually feels scary. And it invalidates her feelings and suggests that nothing can be done or should be done to change that.
Todd: Yeah, I got some baggage with that one. And I’m sure I shared it on this podcast. My Aunt Ruth loved her, died, whatever, 40 years ago, I don’t [00:55:00] know. I always remember her saying, because I was probably, because, you know, she, She was born into a much different world than I was. Correct. She was probably born in 1925, no food on the table, scrappin for meals, and she said, you know, nobody ever said life was going to be fair.
Todd: And I, that, that impacted me, and I don’t use it with, I, I have used it with my kids I’m sure, but I don’t like use it as a tool whenever they’re complaining about something. Um, but it, it, That one, and I don’t even know if she was using it as a thought terminating cliche, I think she was more like, hey, teaching things, you know, like, like sometimes sucks.
Todd: Um, and sometimes when I’m like feeling sorry for myself, I’m like, you know what, sometimes. It’s not fair. There’s plenty of things going on in the world right now that seem really unfair. Well, and that makes
Cathy: this one a really nuanced one, right? Because of course life’s not fair in many ways. But when children, this in a parenting conversation, it’s scary to them.
Cathy: And [00:56:00] you know, when you’re just like, life’s not fair, that makes everything feel kind of wobbly and like, well, if it’s not fair, what grounds me? And something we might say instead is, I know this feels unfair and it’s okay to be upset. How can I support you right now? Like. You’re not going to say to them, no, life is fair and everyone gets their karmic, you know, come up.
Cathy: And so that’s not true. Um, that’s what we were just saying about White Lotus. That’s why it’s such an interesting show. Um, but you can say, you can help them through the feelings of the unfairness because we were just, you know, we were just at a tournament this weekend and, um, You know, there are some kids who did a really good job and who are really excellent at what they do and because of judging or because of the moment or because of the other kids in their group or whatever it may be, they don’t rise to the level that was expected.
Cathy: It isn’t fair. Because they are still excellent and there is only, you know, it’s kind of like an Academy Award, you know, only one person could win it, but you can’t tell me they’re the best actor in all the world that, you know, it’s, it, [00:57:00] it isn’t fair per se, but we can say this feels unfair and let’s talk through our feelings about it because there’s, it’s again, very nuanced.
Cathy: Can we brag about our daughter
Todd: right now or no? Our daughter, Skylar, um, is a junior and she went, she qualified for the state finals in speech. In speech. And she does an event called Impromptu, which means they give her a quote and she’s got two minutes to come up with a five minute speech. Correct. Uh, she began speech last year as a sophomore and as a junior she qualified for state.
Todd: Not only did she just qualify for, qualify for state, sweetie, how did she do?
Cathy: She’s uh, second place in the state of Illinois. Yeah. Yeah.
Todd: And I’m still buzzing.
Cathy: Yeah. She’s the, she’s the runner up. And here’s the thing. This is why it’s important because this conversation we even had with Skyler, because some of her best friends or other people that she’s been learning from did not place in state.
Cathy: And the conversation is not now, now you’re better than everybody else. It’s, this [00:58:00] is. A, this is a competition and there’s certain things that have to be in place. You know, the group that you’re in, she did well. And she, you have to be lucky you do. And she has the, so you have to have the skill, first of all, which she has.
Cathy: And a lot of those other kids do too. And then it’s like who you’re going against, how you feel that day, what order I
Todd: even asked her, I said, when do you want to go? Cause there’s seven kids that go in the round. And I think she said, she likes
Cathy: to go six or seven. Beginning or end. Or
Todd: first.
Cathy: Or first.
Todd: If you’re third or fourth, and that’s just luck of the draw.
Todd: Yep. So there could be kids that went third or fourth. And they get lost in the process. And they get lost. Mm hmm. Um, so life’s not fair.
Cathy: So she is the runner up in the state of Illinois. Yay Skyler. Um, so then I think we could basically end, um, with that. I think that the reason why I thought these were important to talk about is, you know, Want to make sure that we recognize how we’re speaking and why and why it may stop a [00:59:00] discussion and we also want to notice when someone does this to us, so it’s twofold and we want to notice when we’re bringing it into our parenting, our partnership and recognizing how it does end the discussion and sometimes we’ll be like, why don’t we communicate?
Cathy: You know, Todd mentioned this and it’s because we’re saying things like this.
Sure.
Cathy: Um, so I’ll end on this though. Um, I, cause I like, I like this. This is nice. And when a kid’s, when we say to a kid, you’re too young to understand something that we could say instead is this is kind of complicated, but I’ll do my best to explain what questions do you have?
Cathy: And if a kid, if we say to a kid, you’ll understand when you’re older. Something we could say differently is you’re asking a really good question. I’ll do my best to answer right now. I mean,
Todd: what I like about your blog is you’re telling me what to say. I don’t have to think.
Cathy: Yeah. And
Todd: I have to memorize.
Cathy: You can do your versions of it. Like you don’t have to do exactly what I said, but the point I’m trying to make is. Keep it, you know, it’s all the worries, the worries, excuse me, all the words we love. Curiosity, [01:00:00] you know, compassion, openness, that’s, you know, we’ve been saying these things for decades.
Todd: That’s right.
Todd: Um, I want to thank, uh, everybody for listening. I want to encourage, uh, anybody out there that wants to join Team Zen, uh, please do so. The link is below. I want to thank Jeremy Kraft. He’s a bald headed beauty. He does painting and remodeling throughout the Chicagoland area. Uh, 630 956 1800 is his phone number.
Todd: And then, uh, maybe we’ll see you at Zibby’s tomorrow, going to California with an Aiken in my heart.
Round two. Change a little bit. And change a little bit. Pretty [01:01:00] pleasant.
