[00:00:00]
Cathy: Do you
Cara: need
Cathy: us to record?
Todd: Um,
Cathy: and just before it, I know Todd’s recording right now, but just before we start, as you guys know, if I don’t know if you’ve ever listened to our show, but it’s super conversational. It’s super low key. So we can go anywhere you want. If we get off the track, it’s fine. Like Todd and I are, we don’t, we don’t produce it at all.
Cathy: We are just like,
Todd: yeah, we just, I just upload. I mean, unless
Cathy: there’s something you want us to be, as you know, that’s how we
Vanessa: roll.
Todd: Unless you drop an F bomb, I’m not doing anything to it.
Vanessa: Right, I was going to ask, no profanity.
Todd: Yeah, or if we sometimes use a word, but we’re
Vanessa: in the clean category on the podcast,
Cathy: so.
Todd: Okay. Um, and we’re going to interrupt you and you guys interrupt us. Let’s make it super conversational.
Vanessa: Perfect.
Todd: Here we go.
Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This [00:01:00] is podcast number 803, why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding. And as you always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s well being is a parent’s self understanding.
Todd: On today’s show, we have two special guests, Cara Natterson and Vanessa Kroll Bennett. They are the authors of This is so awkward and host of this is so awkward. The podcast focusing on helping parents navigate puberty. Adolescents and awkward conversations with their kids. Cara is a pediatrician and best selling author known for her care and keeping of you series.
Todd: While Vanessa is an educator and founder of Dynamo girl, a program supporting girls confidence through sports and puberty education. Together, they provide science backed practical advice with humor and empathy aiming to make tricky topics feel more approachable for parents and kids alike. Welcome. So glad to have you guys here.
Cathy: Thank you for having us.
Cara: Yes.
Cathy: You know, I [00:02:00] was just thinking before we started that this is now our third date because our first date where we just chatted. Second date, I was on your show. This is our third date and don’t get any ideas, right? It’s going to be some expectations. Third date.
Vanessa: God bless Cara had it figured out in my head.
Vanessa: I went to all the comments that I knew I was not allowed to make on this show and bless Cara for going to the appropriate way of addressing what may or may not happen in the third date. Yes.
Todd: Um, so Cathy wanted to ask the first question, but I’m going to interrupt real quick. At least just stay, um, where you live and then how many kids you have and what ages and what genders.
Cara: Todd, I, I like that you’re playing the part of Kara in this scenario. Vanessa will tell you, like my, my New Year’s resolution every day is to not interrupt. Um, okay. You want what? You want name? Name. Where we live and kids?
Todd: Yeah. And kids.
Vanessa: Okay, Vanessa, go. [00:03:00] Um, do you like how she, um, dove in and then got out of the pool?
Yeah.
Vanessa: Um, I live in New York. I have four teens and young adults, um, ages 14 to 22. Um, Did you ask me how old I am or did you know name? What’s your name? Oh, Already the toughest questions. No boys
Todd: or girls.
Vanessa: Um, I have three boys and one girl. Um, we are recording this podcast while two of my kids are in the middle of their exams.
Vanessa: Um, so you’re really finding me at my best. Um, And I am Vanessa. Sometimes people have trouble telling us apart. You’ll be able to quickly tell us apart because Cara speaks in this really calm and reassuring voice. And I get really loud and we’ll try super hard not to swear on
Todd: this podcast. Well, good luck.
Todd: And if you can’t do it, that’s fine too. Cara, your turn. [00:04:00] Okay. I’m
Cara: going to go in order. I’m Cara Natterson. Um, I have two children, a daughter who is 21 and a son who is 19. I live in Los Angeles. They go to college on the east coast. I miss them a lot. And they went to a super progressive high school and they never had exams.
Cara: So when Vanessa tells me about these things called exams in high school, I’m always like, what? And my kids, when they got to college, they were like, you know, mom. An exam would have been helpful.
Cathy: I would love to go down that track. I know that that’s not exactly what Todd and I were going to talk to you guys about today, but that is so interesting because here in Chicago, I have a lot of friends who have kids who are at Montessori schools or they are at, you know, different versions of, of, of education.
Cathy: And that is always the big question about when it’s time to go to college, how that will play out. Um, and so, and there’s no like it’s good or [00:05:00] bad. It’s just, it’s interesting.
Cara: Yeah. I mean, I will say that, um, there is no good or bad, but, um, my kids had fair, have fared fine. Their learning curve was steep, like all their friends who had exams in high school, which means all of their friends, um, they were all cruising into midterms and finals the first.
Cara: My kids were, I mean, spinning is like putting it nicely. They had no idea which end was up, but they, the learning curve was C, but they did it. I will say if the trade off is, um, exams versus, building community in a school. And it doesn’t have to be a trade off. That’s like the dirty little secret. But if that’s the trade off, I think both Vanessa and I would argue that building community and learning how to communicate with each other and learning how to problem solve.
Cara: Um, as individuals and as a group, uh, that’s really [00:06:00] the most important set of skills.
Todd: Well, and I would add, uh, emotional intelligence. Our kids go to traditional schools and I don’t know how much emotional intelligence is going on with my kids, both my daughters schools when they were growing up. And I’m guessing the alternative method of education focused a little bit more on that.
Vanessa: Well, it’s interesting that you say that, Ted, because I was actually going to say my one of the reason I chose the school that my kids go to now is their approach to exams is actually really rooted in sort of emotional intelligence and pedagogy I really respect, which is instead of having exams in May or June where the cumulative content is the entire year, they pulled it back to February, like mid to late February and, um, to relieve some of the stress.
Vanessa: And then they have one exam a day with interspersed with review days. Um, and there’s just like a lot of thought that [00:07:00] went into how to teach kids how to take exams without. So, adding to the incredible pressure that kids feel and the stress and you know, I know you guys explore this in depth, as do we.
Vanessa: And so I think it is able to do, schools are able to do both, but it requires a willingness to change and upend the status quo and like think really, really hard about, Things like scheduling, which are, can be so ingrained in a school community.
Cathy: And have all of this, these reasons to why things need to be the way they do that are really often based in outdated data, right?
Cathy: But it’s so hard to change because it’s so indoctrinated. We’re so clear that this kids have to get up early. Like I remember. In our community, when my daughter, my youngest, my oldest daughter was in middle school, they used to get up at like 6 a. m. to do band or choir or, you know, orchestra. And it was just part of this community, and then a bunch of parents started saying, why are we [00:08:00] doing it this way?
Cathy: This is so early. But so many parents were like, well, my kids did it that way, and that’s just the way it fits. You know, end of the story is they changed it and now it’s in the school time, you know, they made it work for everybody, but it’s sometimes really hard to get everybody on the same page. And just, just out of curiosity, Vanessa, that shift was that parent parent driven or You know,
Vanessa: that’s a good question.
Vanessa: It happened before we joined, but it was what convinced me. I saw the email that went out from the administrators to the parents about the exams and what the thinking was and why they’d done it this way. And so the shift had happened before I got there, but I so appreciated the way they were communicating with parents about.
Vanessa: the purpose of it and why they had done it this way. So, um, I’ll have to, I’ll have to ask. I do want to do a shout out to a geographic, if not actual friend of yours, Harlan [00:09:00] Cohen. Um, who, for those of you who have kids in college who are grappling with the exam stuff, he has the most wonderful Instagram account giving little.
Vanessa: tidbits of advice to kids and adults about managing the ins and outs of college and the academic pressure and all of that. And I just think he’s absolutely fabulous. And yeah, he is. I’ve sent so much of
Cathy: his stuff to my daughter last year, especially at the beginning of the year. You know, the whole, you know, cause she’s a sophomore now, but like that freshman year, like this is how you’re gonna feel.
Cathy: And this is from me and my experience, here’s this and Todd Harlan’s going to be speaking at Deerfield right before we do. So we, we, we tend to, we have, we do not know him personally yet, but we’re, we’re kind of running, you
Vanessa: have to, you have, you guys have to hang out. He’s the loveliest, warmest, most authentic, most vulnerable guy who loves his wife and family.
Vanessa: Obviously after [00:10:00] it’s always after Cara, if I’ve said anything good, it’s always after Cara that’s assumed. Um, he’s, he really is. He’s so great. You guys got to hang out. You will love each other.
Cathy: Oh, I love that. And before we like venture into the world of this is so awkward, Cara, I wanted to ask you just, you know, being humans, how are you?
Cathy: You live in LA, it’s been kind of rough. I know that there’s been a lot of optimism too, and a lot of coming together, but can you just kind of fill us in about how you’re doing and the LA vibes?
Cara: Oh, that’s so nice. Thank you for asking. Um, Well, I am I’m fine. I’m like grateful beyond every single day. I have a house.
Cara: Um, we live pretty close, like a couple blocks off the mandatory evacuation zone for the big fire, Palisades fire. Actually, there were two massive fires about the same size, um, Altadena and Palisades. And, um, so we, we live pretty close, but we [00:11:00] have a home and uh, Tremendous gratitude. Um, I personally cannot count anymore how many people I know who lost houses.
Cara: Um, and for every one of them, there are even more who have a house standing, but can’t go to it. Um, so the displacement is unbelievable. Um, the sadness in this city is hard to describe. Um, but I think that part of the sadness in this city is that people, and this actually is probably going to dovetail into our conversation today.
Cara: It’s this weird, um, reality that if you are anywhere near the areas that were impacted, you feel the shroud of heaviness about what those folks are living through and what they’re about to take on over the next few years. And then if you drive 10 minutes away, it’s like, Oh, la da da, life goes on. And that juxtaposition feels wrong.
Cara: And I think everyone feels how wrong it feels, but no one knows what to do. do about it. Even when [00:12:00] the fires were burning, if you were driving. In a certain area, the fires could be five miles from you, you didn’t know, you had no idea they weren’t. So LA is, is really struggling. I would say LA is like, like an eighth grader.
Yeah,
Cathy: that’s a good way to describe it. And do you feel, uh, you know, we don’t need to get into exactly who this is, but do you feel like there’s some leadership now? Do you feel like there is some progression of this is what we do next and here’s how we manage this? Or do you still feel like you’re looking for?
Cathy: Who do we look to right now for this help?
Cara: Um, that is a really good question. Uh, I, I can only answer as an individual citizen here, like a, a person who lives in the city and not, I don’t work in politics. Um, No, we’re not really clear where the leadership is, um, [00:13:00] again, not to tether everything to parenting, but I think there’s so many parallels.
Cara: Like I think everyone, people look for leadership. They look for someone to tell you what to do and how to do it. And then they can push back and say, I agree or I disagree, but like they really want guidance. And, um, we’ve been lacking that here in LA, which is, I think. Underlying a lot of the emotional response to, I mean, we are five weeks out, I think five weeks, four weeks, um, and, um, and, and those feelings of sadness have really stayed like a bad fog.
Cara: And, um, I think if there was a sense of clarity and leadership in the same way that if in a household, there’s a sense of there’s a decision, there’s a rule. Whether or not the rule is right or wrong, it doesn’t matter. There’s a rule and we’re going to keep it there. And that makes people feel safe. That makes people feel [00:14:00] looked out for.
Cara: And we don’t really have that right now in LA, although, um. It’s getting better, and I think there are a lot of people emerging who, um, would like to play that role.
Cathy: Yeah. A lot of new voices and a lot of voices that are, um, you know, and, and that’s oftentimes where leadership comes from, is from these challenges.
Cathy: I mean, there’s not a big enough word for the kind of destruction you’re talking about. Like when we say challenges, it’s not, it’s not big enough. It’s kind of hard to contain. Um, and so, but. I, I just want you to know, and I know, you know, I think I got a lot of information from the two of you on your page and on your social media.
Cathy: And then we asked a lot of our people to donate to the places you were recommending. And that Zibi’s was recommending and, you know, people around the country, you know, when, when things are happening anywhere around the world, you know, 10 miles away around the country, people want to do something like money.
Cathy: Good people, you know, the [00:15:00] amount of emails I get, what do you think I should do? And sometimes it just doesn’t rise to the top where we know that people are thinking about us. So, you know, I know that you hear that all the time. It just know that people in Chicago were thinking about you.
Cara: Thank you. That’s so nice.
Cathy: Yeah, it’s it’s a lot. And you’re right, this does all connect to parenting because this is parenting is about leadership, you know, it’s about the kind of, you know, foundation we set in our home, and then how that, you know, helps our children become themselves, you know, be who they are and allow them the space to do that.
Cathy: So I think I want to ask first, you know, I know both of your backgrounds and you know, what you’ve written and what you’ve done. You both of you have an amazing bio and you know, so much experience. And what made you want to focus on You know, this awkwardness phase, this, this puberty phase, or just sex overall, like I don’t even know what language the two of you used to describe this, this.
Cathy: So Vanessa, like what made you want [00:16:00] to go in this direction?
Vanessa: So my, my second puberty journey. began, not the one that I went through, but the one that I went through now professionally actually began because I was coaching elementary school age girls sports. And I was using sports and social emotional learning to build their self esteem, right?
Vanessa: If the research tells us girls self esteem peaks at age nine and begins to precipitously decline through the tween and teen years. Basically never to ever recover in a woman’s lifetime. I was like, but that doesn’t have to be the case. Like there’s so much we can do to change that. And I had been an athlete and I had at the time, I, I think a three year old daughter, um, and knew she was a bundle of energy.
Vanessa: So I founded this company based in all the research about, um, girls emotional trajectory about the things that help build and sustain self esteem [00:17:00] like sports. So that’s, I could have been knitting or singing, but because I was an athlete, that’s what I chose. And there’s actually tons of great research about the importance of team sports and girls self esteem.
Vanessa: And so I’m coaching, you know, hundreds of girls around New York and I’m looking at them and I’m like, huh. These eight and nine year olds are in puberty. I was not expecting these eight and nine year olds to be in puberty. So, you know, looking for about 30 seconds, and this is now a decade ago, um, I came across an amazing book called The New Puberty by Louise Greenspan, who’s a pediatric endocrinologist in the Bay Area, um, and she wrote this amazing book about how puberty is starting earlier for girls.
Vanessa: Um, on the average between 8 and 9. And I thought to myself, okay, we know that puberty can seriously screw people up if they don’t have information and if their caregiving adults don’t have information. And I said, we got to add puberty [00:18:00] education to what we do at Dynamo Girl. It’s not just sports. It’s also learning about bodies.
Vanessa: So that’s how. That’s how we began. Um, I grew up in a house where we talked a lot about puberty and sex and bodies and everything. So I didn’t feel worried or intimidated. Um, it felt like a really important mission to me, um, that I could help these families really care for their daughters and build their confidence through education and through movement and through, um, feeling empowered.
Vanessa: And so that was, that’s how I landed in this very messy, wonderful space.
Cathy: Awesome. That’s I love. I, and you’re right, it is, it does start early. You know, we see the exact same thing. Obviously everybody does. And Cara, how about you, especially with the books that you’ve written, how’d you get into that?
Cara: Yeah.
Cara: So, um, You know, when you’re in medical school, you have to decide what field you want to go into, [00:19:00] and I mean, obviously, pediatrics has the nicest patients, so that was kind of a no brainer, um, and the nicest doctors, just saying. Um, and Then I trained to be a general pediatrician and I was in practice and I was just seeing patients of all ages.
Cara: I ended up leaving practice after several years to write. My kids were young. My husband’s also a physician. It was like they were raising themselves. That didn’t feel right. It was actually kind of ironic being a pediatrician having children raising themselves like wolves. So, um, I ended up writing books and the books were really parenting books about newborns and toddlers and what’s dangerous and what’s safe and it was like very generic parenting stuff.
Cara: Um, I, I was very tired of being part of the cacophony of parenting literature. In fact, I told Vanessa that I had sworn off any parenting book ever again because I [00:20:00] did not want to be part of the chaos that’s being thrown at parents. Um, and if I couldn’t do it in a way that felt Like it was lightening the lift.
Cara: I would not do it. Um, but you can see why Vanessa makes it feel like it lightens the lift. Um, so I ended up, I, I written a third book and I was, I, it was like literally. A scene from a movie, I was giving a talk one night, I put myself on a book tour here in LA, which basically meant I went to preschools and gave free medical advice.
Cara: And I was there for hours and hours and hours every time I went to a different preschool. And the last one I went to, um, a woman from Mattel was at the preschool and at 10 o’clock at night, I’m not making that up, asked a question, um, which led to me being invited to give a talk at Mattel. That was not until 10 o’clock at night.
Cara: And that led to an introduction to the people at American Girl. It was my work with American Girl, which I, I [00:21:00] cannot believe it’s been 14 years. So 2011 is when I first started working with them. Um, that is what catapulted me into the arena of puberty. And they had already published The Care and Keeping of You.
Cara: It was published in 1998. It was a phenomenal resource. every pediatrician told people to use it. Um, there were 3 million copies in print by the time I joined. We have, I think, 7 million copies in print now. Um, and I basically was hired to update it and then to, um, blow out a whole series. And I got to write boy books and books about feelings and, you know, the care and keeping of you too, very creatively titled, um, about sort of what happens next.
Cara: Um, and, and it’s all, you know, it was all in service to this stage of life between eight and 18. And interestingly, the original care and keeping came out in 1998. The study, the very first study that documented that [00:22:00] girls were going into puberty earlier, the study, which Louise Greenspan, who Vanessa just mentioned, When she did her study, she was sort of fact checking this first study.
Cara: This first study was run by a woman named Marsha Herman Giddens. She was a doctor’s, doctor of public health and a nurse practitioner. And she was the one who in 1997 first identified that girls were going, that girls were going into puberty. And the woman who founded American Girl read the same New York Times article that everyone else did and literally pulled that article off, it was on the front page, and put it on Valerie Schaefer’s desk.
Cara: Valerie Schaefer, who wrote the original Caring Keeping, was basically like, we need a book about this. Because now our core consumer. is in puberty. And that is how that journey started. It was really the same seedling for Vanessa, for me, and for [00:23:00] American Girl was all around data showing that puberty was happening earlier.
Cathy: Amazing. And, you know, as I probably already shared with you, when I was on your show, all my girls had that book, you know, all the books, that’s the beginning for so many girls, that’s the gift for so many girls. And it just gives me a lot of. You know, hope, you know, talking about making a difference in people’s lives.
Cathy: And, you know, we’re talking about schools and is that sometimes things start from that place where you read data. That’s why I wrote, I told you, that’s why we’re restoring our girls because of all the data that came out right after COVID about the depression and anxiety of girls. And it’s like, okay, we, there is something changing here.
Cathy: There is something that we have to say something and we can’t wait. The government to say something or we have to, we have to get out there and do this. Um, and I think Todd, did you say you read decoding boys, which is, yeah. So Todd runs a men’s group, an international men’s group. So he’s, you know, inundated with all the books about boys.
Cathy: And so when I showed him the picture, he’s like, Oh yeah, I read that.
Todd: [00:24:00] Um, so I, um, So I’m appreciating this conversation and I kind of feel like I want to start in the middle because I feel like we could talk to you ladies for six hours and not get close to getting through everything we want to get through.
Todd: That’s what, that’s how it goes. Um, but I’ll, I’ll frame it this way. I feel like puberty is a kind of a subset of, I don’t like the term sex education, but just talking about sex and sexuality with our kids. And I, my question is. And I’ll try to get there, is I have three daughters, and my wife is an amazing, hands on mom.
Todd: And, uh, it kind of has left me off the hook a little bit, because I don’t share the same gender as the rest of the people in my family. Um, I have a judgment, an uninformed judgment, that most of the talk about puberty or sex lands on mom.
Mm.
Todd: Is that how it is? Because I know that’s what it was like in my family when I grew up.
Todd: My mom gave me one sex talk [00:25:00] one time and my dad was clueless. And not that I’m clueless. not, I’m not like my dad. But, uh, but I, it’s, it’s uninformed because if I had three sons, I may have shown up differently. So I just wonder if you can kind of comment on the roles of moms and dads. And if, if, if I’m right in that dads need to do more work than the moms in this department.
Cara: I mean, I’ll start and then pass the baton to Vanessa, but the reason it feels that way is because when we were all health and sex educated, if we were health and sex educated, it was done splitting boys into one room, girls into another, and all you needed to learn about were the parts you had. That was the framing we had for all of these conversations.
Cara: Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. Right? We all deserve to know about how every body works and frankly, if we understand how every body works, then we can be allies and advocates and [00:26:00] supportive friends and guys can be there for girls who get their period and toss them a sweatshirt or have a pad for them and conversations around sexual consent can look and sound a whole lot different.
Cara: So there are a lot, like intellectually we all know That everyone should have all the information and yet the way we were taught then trickles down to a style of parenting that is typically the way you describe, which is. It should be gender aligned because that’s how we did it when we were growing up.
Cara: I will say that when I went on the road with American Girl for the very first time, which was in 2013, I was blown away by the number of dads who came in and said, I’m reading The Caring Keeping of You to learn about the physical experience my daughter is going to have so that I can be in conversation with her.
Cara: They were reading a book that was written for 8 to 10 year olds to educate themselves [00:27:00] so that they could start being in conversation. It was the most beautiful thing in the world and it was the beginning, like it was the first crack in the facade that I was seeing and I think Even your question is exactly the right question because what you’re asking for is permission to break down all those barriers.
Vanessa: Yeah, and I think Todd it’s funny because we think about these conversations as Okay, I got to like unload all this information, but really the point is to be a resource, a loving, trusted resource for our kids on any number of fronts. And even if you’re not talking to your kid about menstruation or breasts or intercourse or you know, the sort of the nitty gritty of it.
Vanessa: That was so formal. Um, I’ll get there. Don’t worry. It’s going to devolve in just a second. Um, you know, the things that people think of as the talk, um, that’s just a [00:28:00] part of what you’re doing to build trust and relationship with your kid. I mean, Cathy’s book talks about it so beautifully, but in the really specific context of puberty, um, We think about how when girls bodies start to develop, for example, dads feel like their daughters no longer want to be hugged or sit on their laps or sort of have that puppy like, um, affection and connection, physical connection.
Vanessa: And one of the things that Louise Greenspan actually writes about is that as girls are developing younger, it would mean, if dad’s interpreted that way, that even younger and younger they would lose that affection and physical connection with their fathers. And so she, as a physician, encourages parents not to assume because they look older, um, That they feel older.
Vanessa: In fact, a 10 year old girl is [00:29:00] still a 10 year old girl who wants to sit on her daddy’s lap and cuddle while watching a movie and, um, hold his hand while they’re walking down the street. And so in some ways, Todd, that’s almost a more important role, which is the sort of love and affection and trust and presence.
Vanessa: Like whoever’s going to talk about menstruation, great. Talk about periods or not. Like she’s got to know it. You guys choose. But the fact that you’re like, I’m your dad. I’m not afraid of your changing body. You still deserve love and affection and connection for me. I don’t think of you as a different person.
Vanessa: I still see you as my kid who I love so much. Right. It’s like that messaging that I think is so. important and powerful.
Todd: Well, and one thing I’ll, and sweetie, you can go next, um, I’ll say, cause if there’s dads listening and I’m sure there are, and this is like, we’ve been doing this podcast for 15 years, but like 10 years ago, I’m like, okay, how do I support my daughters when they start having their period?
Todd: And one of the very simple things is you ask your daughter, Hey, I’m going to the grocery store. Do you [00:30:00] need pads or tampons? I’m still shocked how many. Dads can’t even utter those words or period. Like they’re so embarrassed. It’s so foreign. We were never taught how all this stuff works. And if your dad listening, like one thing you could do is say.
Todd: Do you need anything at the grocery store? And even say the words pads or tampons and know which one your daughter prefers because I know which ones my daughters prefer. So you
Cathy: gotta know the brand too. Yeah. Like two things that, you know, were really important to us that Todd and I had conversations about when the girls were, you know, developing was number one, exactly what you just said, Vanessa, about the touching and the making sure that we’re hugging in the morning.
Cathy: And I felt like It’s so much harder to reengage than to keep going, you know, like what Todd and I really had to, you know, reconcile or, or figure out as the girls were getting older and maybe weren’t coming to us for the hugs are sitting in our lap is ways that we were going to keep touching them and, and hugging them.
Cathy: And Todd figured [00:31:00] out that when the girls were, you know, in sports or when they were doing what they were doing, feet rubs, you know, rubbing their foot was like. Right. Stretching them out after a game, right? It’s still touching and it’s like still, you know, making sure that connection remains where it’s never broken.
Cathy: And so then it’s not weird to reengage, you know, like, I think that’s the problem is a lot of times if, if dads or moms, cause it’s. I work with a lot of moms and they’re like, I never hug my kid anymore or they don’t want me to hug them or it’s uncomfortable. And it’s because something got broken or there was some kind of something communicated or a lack of communication about what was needed.
Cathy: So I’m sorry, today.
Yeah.
Cathy: So I just, I just feel like. Having that and, and not making that some underground thing we’re doing, communicating with the girls about, you know, I am, I really want to hug you now. You know what I mean? Like, and not, and also them learning about consent, which when they’re like, I’m not up for it.
Cathy: Cause one of our daughters is not a [00:32:00] huggy person. She wasn’t when she was little. And so she’s much more of a, like, I’ll come in, you hug me, I kiss my hat. And it’s cool. It’s like,
Vanessa: We’re all on the same page. I have a couple of my kids sort of present their cheek to be kissed. Um, and it’s so interesting that you say that Cathy, cause two of my boys, actually three of my, all of my boys, um, were not affectionate as little kids.
Vanessa: They were just not, you know, they didn’t want to come into bed and snuggle at two of them. As they’ve gotten older, people assume, for example, that teenage boys, they don’t want you anywhere near them. Don’t touch me. Don’t look at me. You know, like pretend I’m not in the room. My boys who also went through all that other stuff.
Vanessa: became more affectionate as teenagers and young men than they had ever been when they were younger. And it was just a fascinating thing. And partially, I think it’s because, like, I [00:33:00] was just kind of there to, like, rub their hair or stretch them out or, you know, like, just little stuff to keep the thread of connection.
Cara: And there’s also this culture of hugging in man world now that didn’t Exist before, right? You see football players hugging each other on the field. You see, you know, I mean, it’s just, there’s a sweetness to that. Um, and there’s an, we’ve sort of owned as a society that affection is human.
Todd: Well, and we can do a whole podcast on hugging because I still have a judgment, you know, the guys, the way bros hug is they put their shoulder and there’s like, there’s no vulnerability.
Todd: And with my guy friends, we do. So depending on the man, like it’ll be a 10 second hug. Like, well, that’s weird. And something happens to your nervous system when you have a 10 second hug. Kara, you want to say something?
Cara: I just want to say at progressive school, you learn how to do a 10 second hug. If you’re a guy like I, and I don’t know if they [00:34:00] formally teach it or not, but those, I watched those boys and they do not do that classic shoulder in thing.
Cara: They full chest square on. Big bear embrace, you know, it’s very so I do think some of it is tethered to a willingness to be vulnerable to express yourself with someone and to not be afraid that Um, that type of affection is going to be confused with sexual attraction, right? Those two things are completely separate.
Cara: You can love being in someone’s presence and in someone’s space and it could be completely separate in a way that when, certainly when I was growing up, um, and I think I’m probably the oldest one in the crowd. Um, but when I was growing up. That, those two things were in conflict all the time.
Vanessa: Todd, have you noticed, I’ve noticed something with my older boys, so 19 and 22, that when they get off the phone with [00:35:00] their friends, they tell them they love
Todd: them.
Vanessa: Love you. Um, I love you. And it’s not like. It’s,
Todd: it’s surprising because I’m not around a lot of 19 year old boys.
Vanessa: Right. I was curious if you see it with older men. And it’s lovely. It’s said in the most like loving, caring, and these are like, they’re kind of bro y. Somehow I raised like really bro y guys.
Vanessa: Like these are bro y guys and they like are so verbally affectionate.
Todd: Well, I’m delighted to hear you say that. I say that to my friends often, but I also, whether it’s right or wrong, I feel like the friendships I have with other men is different than the way most men have friendships because I have intentionally tried to cultivate authentic, vulnerable relationships with other men.
Todd: Um, I don’t know if there’s a question in here, but it’s more like an ownership of embarrassment. It’s funny. Your book is called. This is so awkward. I remember growing up, um, when breasts were a vehicle, it was a sexual thing. So whenever I would hug [00:36:00] like a girl, just as a friend and she had breasts, it was like, Oh my God, my chest is up against this woman’s breasts.
Todd: And it was like tiddly titillating and awkward all at the same time. Like there’s no, there’s no question in there. It’s more just. An ownership of the sadness that, that, that even comes into my mind. Like, can’t I just hug somebody without thinking about sex? I don’t know. There’s
Vanessa: an, there’s an essay in our book from a young man who talked about hugging in middle school and how sometimes it would give him a spontaneous erection.
And
Vanessa: so he had to be really careful because again, there is this culture of hugging amongst teenagers and tweens. And he was like, I don’t want to get a boner. And then. She can feel it and then she’s gonna like, then it’s mortifying. So you can’t always help your physical reaction, you know, particularly when you’re just learning how to manage your body.
Vanessa: So your, your [00:37:00] experience is not.
Todd: Yeah.
Vanessa: Unique. This is something we hear about from kids all the time.
Cara: Also the body is changing literally every single day during puberty. So some people wake up and like these girls wake up and their boobs are a size bigger and they just don’t know where they are in space relative to other people and they go in for the hug and suddenly their boobs are crashing against someone else’s chest when yesterday that wouldn’t have happened.
Cara: And you know, it’s. awkward for them too, right? They feel they’re, they’re catching themselves in that moment too.
Todd: Yeah. Well, us guys can hide our puberty and you girls can not. I mean, you could try wearing big sweaters and all that, but we can hide pubic hair and penis size and all that stuff. Whereas you girls are much more out in the open.
Todd: It’s a
Cathy: little more out in the open. And especially right now with the kind of clothes trends, you know, that the girls are wearing, it’s really hard to not, you know, there’s not. Uh, as many options and I think that’s what’s most important [00:38:00] about this conversation that all of you are having is that that conversation alone with our sons and with our daughters about it’s, it’s, it’s okay that you like Todd, you just said it’s, you know, it’s too bad that I felt titillated.
Cathy: No, that’s called being a human being, right? It’s also recognizing it and knowing when it’s appropriate to, you know, to act on feelings and it opens such up such a beautiful conversation because without the conversation, yeah. Shame can get in there, right? Which is that’s right. I’m I’m pushing up against boobs I’m thinking about breasts and that’s not okay, and I’m a bad person.
Cathy: You know, you’re not this is this is very human And so I feel like these things that are so you know to your to your book and your podcast are so awkward or are So feel shameful are the best and most important conversations to have at home. Yeah
Todd: I want to transition real quick. Did you guys watch euphoria?
Cara: My husband and my daughter watched it together.
Todd: Wow. That’s an awkward watch right there.
Cara: Yeah. [00:39:00]
Todd: And so we’re sort
Vanessa: of a big mouth. We’re sort of a big mouth household. Big mouth too. Yeah. Yeah.
Todd: There’s a scene in the first season of Euphoria and Nate, is that the good looking guy? Tall dude, whatever. Why are they always called Nate?
Todd: I don’t know. Or Jake.
Vanessa: Or maybe Jake Art Generation. Jake. By the way, he turned 16. Five this year. Hey, saw that,
Cara: I saw that. He still looks great. He’s still so hot space babe.
Cathy: People, people were putting up his picture going, oh my gosh, this is Jake Ryan. And I was like, mm-hmm .
Vanessa: Uhhuh, . Still got it. Yeah.
Todd: So there, there’s a scene in the first season and Nate is talking about the objectification of the women and all that.
Todd: And the one thing that he says is the worst thing about women is body hair. And I, it was just so sad because we are mammals who have body hair and, and I’m just, I was terrified of the message that is being sent to young. Okay. Yeah.
Cara: Let’s just talk about this. Can we talk? Can we like put it all out in the open?
Cara: Because it’s not about a message. [00:40:00] Um, this is a holding a mirror up to what is going on in society. Yeah. So, um, and this is not new. This has been a gradual progression. Um, I left my practice of general pediatrics in 2008. These trends were already starting back then, let me be really clear. And they have only escalated as porn has become more and more accessible because when.
Cara: When kids are exposed to porn, um, and they see bodies with no hair, which is the standard body in free porn, um, they begin to internalize a lot of messages about what a sexy body looks like or what a body that has sex looks like. Right. So, um, but this is, this has been decades. In the making in terms of trend shifting and yes, body hair for, I don’t care your gender, pubic hair in particular.
Cara: I don’t care your [00:41:00] gender. It’s out. It’s out. It will be in one day. Yeah.
Vanessa: Right. So there’s, um, the, the porn influence is huge. There’s, have you guys heard of, cause you have daughters, the manscaper. Is that, are you familiar with that term?
Todd: I mean, manscaping is guys taking care of their pubic hair, right?
Vanessa: Right. So there’s an actual tool, which is, you know, like all these other, called the manscaper. No
Todd: kidding.
Vanessa: And it’s kind of a rite of passage for teenage boys that it’s time to get a manscaper. So it’s not just, as Kara was saying, it’s not just girls who are doing it. I was so concerned about exactly this reality that I said to my teenage boys, Hey, I just want to make sure you guys know that a body naturally has pubic hair.
Vanessa: Like girls naturally have pubic hair. They may choose to remove it, but I don’t want you to freak out if you happen to see a vulva that has hair on it because that’s actually [00:42:00] naturally what happens because at that point they had never actually seen a vulva in person. They may have seen it in porn or been told and there’s this baggage that it’s Gross, right?
Vanessa: There’s, there’s already so much baggage about, um, vaginas are gross. They look gross. They smell gross, right? Labiaplasty, plastic surgeon on the labia. I mean, there’s so much negativity and then layer on top of it that they’re supposed to be hairless on top of everything else. And it’s like, We’re, we’re going to have to constantly, girls are getting the message, like, I have to change.
Vanessa: I have to change. And boys are now getting that message too. No one is immune from it.
Cathy: Yeah. Todd was just given advice by one of his guy friends last week that he, that he should shave everything off. Yeah. And Todd’s like, do you? Do you need me to do these things? I’m like, honey, you, you, you do you. I mean, but it’s funny because it gets marketed.
Cathy: I mean, what my girls get marketed or what I, you know, what comes at me on tick tock is the stripper shavers. You know, this is what strip use. And this is, you know, if you want to get rid of [00:43:00] everything, it needs to be this size and needs to look this way. Like regular shavers aren’t doing it anymore. And I know girls who are in high school and college who have had them.
Cathy: Full, um, laser surgery. Yes. Not surgery. Wrong word. Laser treatment.
Cara: Yes. To get rid of all their hair forever. So even Which is a A
Cathy: hack.
Cara: And this is an important little, um, side note, which is, um, electrolysis and laser are permanent hair removal strategies. And when I say pubic hair is out, we choose, Vanessa and I choose that language very intentionally because trends come and go.
Cara: And so an 18 year old who has. laser hair removal and removes all of the pubic hair that she has or he has in 10, 20, 30 years when hair is back. I mean, no, it sounds unbelievable, but hair will be back. Those kids at that point are going to go. Well, wait a second. I made a [00:44:00] permanent choice when I was 18 and my prefrontal cortex was not fully mature and I wasn’t really thinking long term.
Cara: So we, we are very aggressive. I’ll, I’ll use the word aggressive about talking to both kids and the adults who care about them about temporary beauty air quotes procedures versus permanent ones. Because You can do all the temporary fixes you want, but a permanent shift is a permanent shift. It is. It’s like our parents who shaved
Cathy: off their eyebrows, and then the rest of their life, they have to draw on
Vanessa: my, that was my grandmother.
Vanessa: And it was like the, and, or my mom plucked all hers. And it was like, it
Cara: made sense because Vanessa, like I, if I I have to pluck my eyebrows constantly. If I shaved off my eyebrows, I feel like they would grow back in a day. Who
Vanessa: knows what the real story is, but we grew up with all these warnings about, you know, and now there’s all this stuff about people in the 90s who plucked their [00:45:00] eyebrows to like really fine lines and now have to like draw them in.
Vanessa: And it’s not what you end up doing. It’s like that you’re actually talking to kids about it and they’re not sneaking around or doing stuff that’s unsafe or making choices that aren’t healthy or good for them. Right? Like it’s, it’s all of it.
Todd: And I hate to be overly practical, but eyebrows are there to keep shit out of your, sorry, stuff out of your eyes.
Vanessa: Yeah. Yeah.
Todd: Yeah. And as
Cathy: is pubic well, and pubic hair has an important, I know I’m getting nervous about I’m seeing on tick tock all these girls using like nose hair trimmers and like putting it cause they don’t want it to, they don’t want to see nose hair. And I’m like, there’s another thing. Nose hair is important to keep you.
Cathy: I
Cara: mean. I, I will do a plug for, um, nose hair in the 6th, 7th, 8th decade of life when it’s like a vine growing up. Different story.
Todd: Or the ear hair. I got, I work in a industry and there’s a bunch of [00:46:00] dudes that just have like bushes thrown out of their ears. I’m like, come on. And they just have given up.
Cathy: Yeah.
Cathy: They’ve, they’ve stopped their manscaping. You know, they’re not. Yeah. Not looking at, like, Todd, you just said you were somewhere last weekend and you didn’t look in the mirror at all. You did. Yeah. And I like a booger in my nose. I’m like, I just, I just do not look at myself at all because that becomes my job.
Cathy: Not my job. Literally doesn’t, but I am always saying to him, you have food on your
Cara: face or whatever and you know, like, Cathy, I wish you lived in my house. ’cause no one tells me when I have kale in my teeth, no one tells me any of that. And then I go back, I know. And I’m like, guys, you lose five points right now because this is a gigantic piece of spinach.
Cara: And no one
Cathy: told me. Um, I tell the, I. I am in my family, at least in my best friends. I always tell people and not in like a, Oh, not like you don’t look good enough. It’s not about appearance. It’s about you have food in your teeth or whatever. Right. The girls get embarrassed like mom. And I’m like, that’s my job in your life.
Cathy: Like, yes, I don’t want to be a person who just pretends I don’t see or gets uncomfortable. I don’t like
Todd: that. Um, so we have six minutes [00:47:00] left. No. And that’s terrible. I just want to like promote the book real quick. Um, what’s great, cause I did not read the book, full transparency, uh, Cathy did, uh, but she showed it to me this morning in prep for the podcast.
Todd: And right at the beginning, I think it’s before page one, it’s 10 slightly shocking facts about modern puberty. So I’m, I’m saying that just as a tease, like it’s a really interesting hook to get you interested in this book. So. I just want to leave it actually to Kat, because I have like 25 questions I never got to.
Todd: Sweetie, is there anything that you want to make sure we hit that we didn’t hit?
Cathy: Well, I’m going to actually leave it to Vanessa and Kara to give us that, because one of my questions was going to be, you know, you, the two of you do this podcast and you go out in the world and you talk to people all the time.
Cathy: What is If you can, you know, put it together the greatest concern parents have right now, or what’s the threat of greatest concern? ’cause I’m sure there’s a lot of pieces to it that you hear. And is, is there anything you wanna offer to parents who are listening that may be calming or helpful?
Vanessa: I think [00:48:00] probably the most common question we get on the road, and at this point we’ve spoken to like, I don’t know, thousands and thousands and thousands of people is how do I handle when I have two or more kids in a household and they’re.
Vanessa: Different ages and I, how do I know what I can talk to both of them about or all of them about versus when do I pull them out to have separate conversations about things and how do I do that without conferring shame on the topic, right, without making it like a secret and So one thing we talk a lot about is like, what is the baseline stuff you can talk to kids about from a very early age that promotes bodily autonomy and agency and frankly protects them from sexual predation.
Vanessa: So like anatomically correct terminology, we’re like any kid living in your house should know the correct names for all their body parts. Consent. Any kid in your house should be well versed in consent [00:49:00] long before sex ever enters the picture for them. Um, you know, and so we start there and then when it comes to conversations like porn, right, the average age of porn exposure in this country is 12, but 15 percent of 10 year olds.
Vanessa: So if you have a nine and a 10 year old, great. Have that conversation. If you, we were in an, we had an audience last week that had a lot of people with like kindergartners and high schoolers and so you can separate them for those conversations, but make it clear you’re not doing it because it’s shameful and you’re doing it because they have the sophistication, the comprehension, the ability to understand what you’re talking about.
Vanessa: Okay. It’s not their job to educate their siblings yet. You will get to their siblings, but this push and pull of ages and who do I talk to when as is a really common concern we hear from parents.
Cara: And I would even pull the lens back further because the next [00:50:00] layer of the onion is the push and pull between what parents learned and what they feel like they need to know to be in conversation with their kids.
Cara: But they are clueless about maybe they never had health and sex ed. Maybe they had it, but it was like 30 years ago, right? They’re so overwhelmed by the ways in which the world has changed. And that’s really tricky for them as well. And so, you know, one of the reasons why we ended up writing a book and yelling into the cacophony of the parenting space, um, is the same reason we do a podcast is the same reason that.
Cara: We have a curriculum in schools and we actually have a parallel curriculum for parents and trusted adults. It’s to give updated, fun, joyful, reliable, but also relatable information. Because Todd, to your point about the gender mismatch and like who gets allocated, what conversations, if you’re given [00:51:00] access to information that’s easy to absorb and that starts a conversation.
Cara: Um, your kids and the kids in your lives, whether they’re your children or just kids you care about, those kids are safer and they’re healthier because you’re having conversations with them. So we try to do this in every which way so that we can help level the playing field for the adult. adults who need to deliver the conversations or start the conversations because it’s really, really hard for them when, especially when they say, no one talked to me about any of this.
Todd: Um, so I’m just on your, um, website. You’ve done 290 podcasts. The name of the podcast is, this is so awkward. And I’m just out of curiosity, the format, is it just the two of you or do you bring guests in? What do you guys usually do?
Vanessa: First of all, we’re
Todd: like a
Cara: quarter
Todd: of your podcast.
Vanessa: We’re like a baby compared to, we have, we alternate between the expert guests and the two of us.
Vanessa: Um, [00:52:00] and we feel like Cathy came on, it’s a wonderful episode. We loved her book so much. Um, and sometimes it’s the two of us, you know, because Carr is a pediatrician. We can get into medical stuff and science stuff. Sometimes it’s just like based on a thing that came up in our homes or families. Um, but a lot of it is the best research that’s coming out.
Vanessa: Um, thought leaders, um, hitting topics that are relevant, but we haven’t hit before. Um, we love suggestions, questions. Um, people can email us operations at less awkward. com and send us requests. Um, we love, love getting things like that.
Todd: So the name of the book is, this is so awkward. And the subtitle is modern puberty explained.
Todd: And it’s interesting. Your subtitle is actually a picture of a deodorant. Um, and which is is kind of cool. And, uh, Follow the podcast, listen to them. [00:53:00] And, uh, I just think that this was such a wonderful conversation. We’d love to have another one with you at some point. Yeah.
Cathy: And for, you know, people have been listening to Zen Parenting forever.
Cathy: You need to follow their podcast, everybody. Cause Todd and I talk about sex and sexuality and talking about, you know, talking with our kids, but if you want it more intensely and. Up to date and research based and all the thought leaders that are discussing this. You need to follow their podcast. It’s excellent.
Cathy: Um, they are excellent and they’re just really nice people. Like I just really like you too. I said when, you know, when I finished our podcast, I was like, Oh Todd, that was really great because they’re, I, they, you know, it’s like Debbie Reber is the one who introduced us and yeah. Debbie Reber to me. We’re like friends.
Cathy: We don’t have to do all that awkward stuff, you know? Yeah.
Vanessa: It’s like having a new friend. It’s so wonderful. It’s such, it’s like the best part of doing this work is getting to meet all these really smart, interesting, caring people. It’s such a treat. And we will come back, Todd. We will happily, happily come back.
Vanessa: We’d
Todd: love to schedule. Um, I know you guys had a hard stop, so I want to get you out actually a minute late. Thank you so much, Cara [00:54:00] and Vanessa. And we will be in touch and we’ll see everybody else on Zen Parenting next Tuesday. Keep trucking.
Vanessa: Thanks, everybody.
Todd: Bye, everybody. Bye, you
Vanessa: too. Bye. Bye. Thanks for having us.
Vanessa: Bye.
Round two. Change a little bit. And change a little bit. Pretty pleasant.
