[00:00:00]
Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 802. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding. And always remember our motto, which is that the best predictor of a child’s well being is a parent’s self understanding.
Todd: On today’s show, we’re going to talk about the difference between narrow mindedness. And
Cathy: open mindedness, but more specifically, we’re going to talk about personal experience bias or anecdotal absolutism, which is when people think because they’ve had an experience, it means everyone’s having that experience, but that is actually a form of narrow mindedness.
Todd: That’s right. Um, but first we, um, it’s whatever, 12 hours [00:01:00] removed from Super Bowl Sunday.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: Um, the Eagles. Eagles. Took care of the Chiefs. Yes. Um, feel mostly happy. I have a friend who’s a coach on the Chiefs, so I feel a little bad for him.
Cathy: But yeah, there’s, it was kind of a hard bet going in, like, you know, I had gone for the Chiefs last year and some of my best friends are from Kansas City and I, you know, I, I really liked Travis and you know, their story and everything.
Cathy: But last week I just learned a lot of things and one of those things was understanding more about Jalen Hurts and I just got really invested in Jalen. And it took me like a day and I was like, Oh, this guy. Yeah.
Todd: And he, see, I didn’t know much about him, but he seems like a sweetheart. And, uh, he had a tough loss a few years ago to the chiefs in the super bowl.
Todd: So it’s nice to see that that come around. Plus I think most of the country was sick of the chiefs being so good. I think that happens a lot. It was a rough game. Like they. They beat them in a big way. Yeah, it was a beatdown. So we don’t have to review the entire thing, [00:02:00] but it was a beatdown. And then as we started Press Record, uh, we started having a conversation about this thing.
Todd: Hello? And Cathy asked me, hello, what do we do now? So when the cell phone rings, what we used to do is we used to say hello. And now when the phone rings, we say hello, don’t we?
Cathy: We do, but I’m not really comparing it to the cell phone. I just think it was really funny that in our houses, we had this phone in the kitchen and it would ring like that and I would pick it up.
Cathy: I’d be walking by. And so I’d go, hello, or I’d say,
Todd: Kasani’s,
Cathy: or I’d say,
Todd: Did you really say that?
Cathy: Yes! Or I’d say, this is Cathy. Like, it just depended on
Todd: my
Cathy: age.
Todd: Well, a few things. The difference between then and now is back then we didn’t know who was calling.
Cathy: Do you remember the whole family [00:03:00] avoiding answering the phone?
Cathy: And someone would say, somebody pick up the phone! I
Todd: do remember that. You remember that? I do remember that. Although I also remember getting excited to answer the phone. You know, if I was bored, something happening.
Cathy: Oh, I don’t, I don’t know if I ever got excited unless I knew my friend was calling me right back or like it was for me.
Cathy: But a lot of times if it was somebody from my parents, I had to talk to that adult and then if my parents were not available, then the adult would be like, and how are you?
Yeah.
Cathy: And I’d be like, Oh, geez. Or sometimes, I don’t know if you know this about me, I think I’ve shared with you, but when boys would call, especially when I was in middle school and early high school, I didn’t really like talking to them.
Cathy: I thought they were kind of boring. Sometimes they’d be like. What are you doing? What’s happening? And I would be like, this is a really hard call to have. That’s rotary, but
Todd: that’s
Cathy: not what my phone sounded like.
Todd: Uh, it says that’s an 80 sound, but I agree with you. It’s kind of not it.
Cathy: Ours was more like I’m trying to pull
Todd: up the busy signal.
Todd: Cause remember how mad we were when it was busy, a [00:04:00] busy signal and
Cathy: then call waiting showed up. So here’s the progression. So you had the phone call and then you had the busy signal, which was so annoying. And then we got to call waiting with the click, click, and then we got to. caller ID that showed up when we were in the mid nineties, I think 96 or 97.
Cathy: I remember all my friends worked for telecom places. So I got stuff super early. Um, so I remember having caller ID and I was kind of going through it with someone at the time that I didn’t want to talk to anymore. So I was very grateful to have. That come up because then I did I knew not to answer
Todd: well and these days Cellphones really are barely ever used as phones as the house phone You mean as a phone in general like how often are you and I talking to each other on the cell phone?
Todd: It happens, of course
Cathy: You’re right. I talk on the phone to girlfriends Meaning, like, I’ll go take a walk and talk on the phone to my girlfriends. My children [00:05:00] FaceTime me.
Todd: Yeah. What’s your relationship with voicemails? I don’t like
Cathy: them. I don’t like them. What is I
Todd: leave you voicemails.
Cathy: I know. But you know what I do, Todd?
Cathy: What? They now get, um, written for you. Transcribed. They get transcribed. So, I don’t have to listen. I can see what it says.
Todd: You’d rather read than listen to some, rather than hear the sound of my voice.
Cathy: So, I get weird about voicemails. I can read. Good or bad news, but I have a hard time listening to it.
Cathy: Sweetie, when I’m calling, it’s nothing but good news. I know. It’s kind of a weird thing. I was just sharing this with some people and they were like, what? Like, usually someone will be like, oh, I relate. Yeah. But I, if a voicemail comes in or making a phone call is very hard for me, but Um, texts and reading doesn’t affect me.
Cathy: Yeah. I don’t
Todd: know.
Cathy: I don’t know what that’s all about. I don’t either. It’s whatever sensitivity that is.
Todd: I was, I was about to pull a busy, busy signal, excuse me, but I think there’s a song called Busy Signal. So there’s a whole bunch of things that I don’t know anything about. So [00:06:00] I will not be playing you the busy signal.
Cathy: All right.
Todd: Were we, were we able to like kind of break into somebody’s phone and say Emergency
Cathy: breakthrough? Yeah. Yeah.
Todd: I don’t ever remember doing that. I just feel like I saw it on TV.
Cathy: I’m sure it’s a real thing, but it also feels a little urban legendy, like, well, if it’s a real emergency, we’ll, we’ll have the operator operator.
Todd: Can you. Can you bust in on this? Yeah. I don’t remember ever doing that,
Cathy: and I, if it worked, that’s great. I’m sure there’s a way through it, but did you ever talk to an operator or did we have a, a, like a automated operator? No, I
Todd: think I, no, we, it was a person, I think we dialed zero every now and again and said operator.
Todd: Right? I don’t know. I can’t remember. I think I 4 1 1. Remember we called 4 1 1? No. What did we, what did we
Cathy: call? 4 1 1 4. Four one. One is when you’re calling the police, but it’s not an emergency.
Todd: 9 1
Cathy: 1 is an emergency 4 1
Todd: 1 was, um, was like informative.
Cathy: Ours was 7 That was the, that was the time and temp. [00:07:00] I would call time and temp in the morning.
Cathy: Be like, what time is it? And what’s the temperature?
Todd: Um, I remember. doing, calling 222 2222 and it was
Cathy: like
Todd: the Chicago Tribune or something. Oh
Cathy: really?
Todd: And then there’s another
Cathy: Did you call 555 5555? I
Todd: said 411 was a telephone directory assistance number used in the U. S. and Canada before the internet became the go to source for information.
Todd: If you needed a phone number, address, or business listing, you can call 411 and the operator will provide the details.
Cathy: Todd, you’re 100 percent right. And I think I’m thinking of 3 1 1 is that’s a different thing and you could also do this thing and maybe this is the 4 1 1 thing where they would then give you their address, you could like reverse the number because when I lived on Belmont and we had all those parties, the way that we would get people to come is we’d send out invitations in the mail like everybody did and we would call to get everyone’s You know address [00:08:00] we’d use that service like I guess it was four one one.
Todd: So I just asked chat GPT What are some other weird things about phones in the 80s the long cords that got tang sure tangled? Uh huh, busy signals were a problem. Yeah phone booths and pay phones were everywhere. Yeah prank calls were a big deal Is
Cathy: that it? Is your refrigerator running?
Todd: And then, and then collect, and I promise then we’ll get to the show, but this is too funny for me, collect calls.
Todd: Remember those?
Cathy: Totally. Will you accept a call from?
Todd: Uh, rotary dials took forever. Landlines were shared by families. If you,
Cathy: rotary, if you had zeros,
Todd: it was a pain in the butt. Party lines. Some homes had shared phone lines with neighbors, meaning you pick up and hear their conversations.
Cathy: Todd, remember our party line?
Cathy: When we were at that place, I think I went to Ohio with you. And we were at Tatooine. Yeah, that was weird. I
Todd: remember that. Yeah. Um, writing down phone numbers. Yeah, for sure. Remember to write those down. Do we still
Cathy: do that?
Todd: I don’t think so. We
Cathy: put it in our phones. But it’s, you [00:09:00] know,
Todd: they’re still relevant.
Todd: Answering machines were a game changer.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: Cordless phones were the future. Whenever we see, like, an episode of Friends, we’re like, oh, look at that old school Yeah, you’d like
Cathy: pull up the antenna.
Todd: Phones had hold music. I don’t remember that.
Cathy: Of course they did. Long,
Todd: long distance calls were expensive. Uh
Cathy: huh.
Todd: 1 900 numbers were for weird stuff.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: Uh, people answered unknown calls, so you’re probably not very good at answering unknown calls. You like What
Cathy: does unknown calls mean? Like the phone would ring and you’d Yeah, you’d just answer it. Well, we all did. I know. Because your phone would ring and you’d answer the phone.
Todd: Dial tones were reassuring. Phone, you’d pick up the phone and there would be a dial tone there so you knew when to start dialing. You
Cathy: had to wait for the dial tone or you’d have to go click, click, click, click, click, click, click.
Todd: Um, waiting by the phone was a real thing. Real thing. Uh, that’s it. So if we have anybody under the ages of 35 and under, I’m sure they are bored, silly, about our tripped out memory lane.
Cathy: I know, it was, but that’s all you had like in say [00:10:00] anything. Um, Lloyd Dobler had to take the phone in the bathroom and he was like carrying it around, holding it. That’s right. And like, that’s what you had to do. Like, and I would take, we had a really long cord in the kitchen. We had one that was on the wall.
Cathy: So I’d have to like take it into the living room. Like I had to get space or we had stairs. And I would sit on the stairs and close the door to the basement with the cord. So you just needed privacy. It was hard to get privacy.
Todd: That’s right.
Cathy: Did you ever have, uh, friends who had two lines?
Todd: I think we had two lines.
Todd: You did? Every now Yeah, because you’d have to like lift up that one thing and then turn the other thing to switch over.
Cathy: I don’t know, but That was like a thing where, like, the kids would get their own phone number. Yeah. And, that, my parents were not for that. I don’t know
Todd: if we had a separate number, but we had, we’d have to, like, pull something up on the phone and then twist a lever and you’d be on the second line.
Cathy: Oh.
Todd: Maybe that was just a Chicago thing and not a DeKalb thing.
Cathy: Maybe, not a DeKalb thing. Could you go back to the Super Bowl?
Todd: Oh yeah, so let’s go back to the Super Bowl. [00:11:00]
Cathy: Um, so I want to talk about two things that you have access to right in front of you, I think. Um, I want to talk about one of the things, one of the many things I really loved about Jalen Hurts that I learned last week, is he has a, actually, why don’t you just play the clip.
Todd: Okay, let me see if I can pull that up.
Cathy: Okay.
Cathy: You’re not ready. I’m getting ready.
Can you speak to your intention behind why you hire and work with so many women? Yeah, I think that was something that kind of happened organically as well. Um, but it turned into something that was That, uh, it turned into something that allowed me to see different perspective of things.
And so, um, it gave me the eye that I didn’t have. And I think that’s the power of a woman in that.
Cathy: Boom. Jalen. It gave him the eye that he didn’t have. Yeah. And like, and so if you didn’t hear what she asked, she said, you know, you have all these [00:12:00] women working for you. So Jalen Hurts, his entire management team are women.
Cathy: So everybody, PR, um, Management, all of that kind of stuff that everybody around him is women and so or are women and the question is, you know Why and he’s like because it gave me an eye that I didn’t have and I find that to be so succinct Yeah, and it doesn’t have to be he doesn’t have to go into great detail They see things and experience things and he doesn’t start
Todd: evangelizing.
Todd: He just said it the way he thought it.
Cathy: I loved it And then the other thing was the halftime show. Okay, are you ready? I’m ready. A little bit here.
What I’m talking about! That’s what America wants! Nice and calm! You’re almost there. Don’t mess this! Oh no! It’s a cultural divide. I’mma get it on the floor. You really about to do it? Forty acres and a mule, this is [00:13:00] bigger than the music. You really about to do it? Yeah, they tried to rig the game, but you can’t fake influence.
They get on it like this. Hey, I’m trippin I’m slidin I’m ridin through the back, like, What’s that on the beat, bro? He broke in the wreck, uh, he a freak. He did it. They call it ember lamps, tell him breathe. They walk around like, what’s up with calling, trying to see Compton Mama? How many got, I mean, there’s too many options.
Todd: Should keep going.
Show John Stockton.
Cathy: What? Yeah, you can stop that. I love, I love the whole beginning, but, all right, so Kendrick, so Kendrick, so. Samuel L. Jackson came out first and he’s like, I’m your uncle, Sam, you know, and he had a bunch of things to say about what America is expecting and, you know, trying to be kind of like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, Kendrick, what are you going to do here?
Cathy: And of course, Kendrick did what he wanted to do. Um, and there was a lot of messages in that halftime show. And I really encourage people to go read a little [00:14:00] more about what Kendrick was wearing, what he was saying and the songs he was singing. And yes, there’s a, that song has a lot to do with Drake. It’s a diss track.
Cathy: You know, against Drake and it obviously won record of the year and song of the year at the Grammys, you know, a couple weekends ago. Um, but there was some question whether or not he was going to sing it at the Super Bowl because Drake, Drake’s label is suing him because it’s a diss track, you know, and there’s a lot of claims in there about Drake being a pedophile and all these things.
Cathy: And so there was, he kind of kept teasing the song. Like, is he going to do it? And that’s why the girls are like, are you really going to do it? And so it was great because he did it and he looked right at the camera and like, you know, I didn’t think he wouldn’t, you know, but it was still, there was a little bit of momentum.
Cathy: So
Todd: did it get, was it reviewed well? Like, are people happy about his performance?
Cathy: I You see a mixed bag like I thought it was amazing and I was like looking at everything like even the the stage it was one of the things that I read was that Sony is Drake’s label and that [00:15:00] they he did the Stage like a PlayStation, which is Sony, you know kind of like and he did a game over thing at the end So there was a lot there was a lot of imagery a lot of Easter
Todd: eggs
Cathy: a lot of Easter eggs and so I enjoyed watching and I think Hendricks amazing and I think that Um I, it’s not that I’m listening to his music all the time as if it’s my own.
Cathy: I’m kind of not of the generation that knows Kendrick well, but I have a great appreciation for the art of what he’s doing, you know, his messaging, his, it’s very, it’s more than entertainment, you know? Um, and I thought it was really interesting for the Superbowl last night. And I weren’t
Todd: bored.
Cathy: I was not bored.
Cathy: And I was telling you though, before that there were people who don’t know his music, who were maybe. You know, sitting in certain areas of the Super Bowl who were sitting down and not enjoying it, but it’s kind of not for them. Do you know what I mean? Like it’s or it’s actually aimed at them, um, depending on what way you want to look at it.
Cathy: And, and that [00:16:00] doesn’t mean that everybody has to. Like it and be like, Oh yeah, I’m going to go download this. But I do think there is an appreciation.
Todd: Well, it’s a nice transition to what we’re talking about today of narrow mindedness versus open mind.
Cathy: Beautiful. Thank you for that intro, because that’s exactly like if you’re curious, if you’re listening to this and you’re like, I didn’t really know those songs.
Cathy: That’s OK. Go read about those songs. Go read about Kendrick. Go have an understanding, not just of the Drake Kendrick. That’s one piece of it, but, um, there’s, there’s just a lot there. So, yeah. So let’s talk about narrow mindedness and open mindedness.
Todd: All right. Um, so one quick thing. So just so everybody knows I’m, I’m not a rap guy, so I’m guilty as charged.
Todd: So when it was halftime show, I went and cleaned the kitchen because I hate. Wait, leaving the kitchen until after the show, after the Super Bowl is over. So I use that time to do that. So I’m one of those guys that is not very curious about Kendrick Lamar or Drake or whatever. And I’m sure [00:17:00] that if I really got into it, I probably would dig it.
Cathy: Well, Skye, Shane, and I were having a ball. Because we were excited. And your sister, Shane, is actually a true fan. Like, she’s liked Kendrick all along. And I’m more of the, um, pop culture piece. You’re more
Todd: of a fair weathered fan.
Cathy: I’m, yes. And we’re like, now I’m so interested. I’ve always known him, but I’ve never really, but now he’s so much a part of the zeitgeist and it’s so.
Cathy: I think it’s awesome. And it was just enjoyable to watch. So, um, that’s my viewpoint.
Todd: So here we go. So narrow mindedness as it relates to relationships, right? Not necessarily a parenting thing. And we might, I might bring up an example of parenting where, um, I had a little bit of a debate with a friend of mine, but first, why don’t you go over like the basics of the difference between narrow and open mindedness?
Cathy: Well, can I talk first about why I want to discuss this is I find. you know, to your point, you’re like, this is not really just about parenting. No, it’s about everything. It’s about how we view the world. I think it does relate to parenting. And like Todd said, he’ll, we’ll use some examples, but I think something that I [00:18:00] personally run into, um, when I’m in conversation with people is like I said, at the beginning, something that is, you know, termed personal experience bias or anecdotal absolutism, which is this belief.
Todd: So you say that really quick, can you slow that down? Yeah.
Cathy: Personal experience bias.
Todd: Personal experience
Cathy: bias, okay. Or anecdotal absolutism. Okay,
Todd: help me out with both of those things. Okay,
Cathy: same thing. They’re the same thing. Oh, they’re the same thing. Yes, so basically the personal experience bias is the easiest way to break it down.
Cathy: So basically that just means I had a personal experience, therefore this is the way the world works. Got it. Okay, so for people, there are people regardless of career. that see the world in a really much broader way where they understand that there are many different viewpoints and many different experiences that people have.
Cathy: I will say though, as a therapist or as a social worker who it is my job to recognize how other people view the world, like by nature, [00:19:00] Everything I’m reading about is other people’s experiences. Everything I do as a clinician is other people’s experiences. And as an activist or somebody who, you know, thinks about other people’s rights, you know, social justice, that’s the whole point.
Cathy: How does someone else experience this? And so I struggle sometimes, naturally, when I talk to people who have personal experience bias because, by definition, what it is, is my experience is the experience.
Todd: So, all of us have a personal experience. Correct. Not all of us have a personal experience bias.
Cathy: You know, I would say all of us, including myself, Have somewhat of a personal.
Cathy: Yeah,
Todd: you you none of us sees the world through a completely clear lens, correct? We are all seeing the world through our own History trauma experience everything else now what we do with that filter that we see the world through is a different story But we all see the world through a complete maybe not completely.
Todd: We all see the world through our [00:20:00] lens
Cathy: Correct. So that is you said that really well like we’re all going to have a certain personal You know, bias, and we’re going to see the world that way. But then what do we do? Do we then conclude that this is the way? That’s
Todd: when our prefrontal cortex is supposed to kick in.
Cathy: Correct. Or do we say, Hey, other people might have other experiences. So let’s go to like Jalen, you know, you just played his clip where they said, why do you have all these women around you who are on your management team? How did that happen? And he said, it happened somewhat organically. But then what it gave me was new eyes.
Cathy: He’s like, I got a wider perspective. On how the world works because he had a one, he had a, a more, you know, one way of, I think narrow. Thank you. Narrow way. Yeah. And so I think that is always our goal. So this does connect to parenting, right? Because we come in. Thinking we know what’s best for our kids because of a lot of it is based on our history.
Todd: We have preconceived notions how we think they should be or how we’re going to [00:21:00] guide them through this world.
Cathy: Correct. And we’re like, this is how you parent. This is what you do. This is what you say. And the truth is, you don’t know anything until you start parenting. Like you can, you can have some ideas.
Cathy: You can read the research and it’s all great. But until you are in the world with your kid or your children, you’re like, oh, This works here. Oh, I didn’t know that. Oh, they have a different experience here in the whole goal. The reason why parenting is such a great mirror is it’s widening. If you allow it to, it’s widening your perspective on the world where you see that a lot of people, even people in your own family, your own, you know, often your own DNA do not experience the world the way you do.
Cathy: Right. And our ability to, um, widen, you can still have a grounding element of this is what I believe and this is what has worked for me. That’s just called personal experience. But you can eliminate or decrease the bias by saying, and I am open and willing to learn more and not believe that everything I’m saying and doing is the way.
Cathy: Yeah. [00:22:00]
Todd: Can we be open or closed?
Cathy: Correct.
Todd: Narrow or curious?
Cathy: Right, so some, so you’ve got some of these in front of you, uh, about narrow mindedness.
Todd: Do we want to, do we want to rip through the narrow first or go back and forth between the first bullet point of narrow and the first bullet point of open?
Cathy: Yeah, go ahead and do, do that.
Todd: So the first thing you have for narrow is you’re resistant to new ideas and what that does is dismisses differing opinions without consideration So basically you’re blocking out other Perspectives.
Cathy: Yeah, narrow mindedness is just like I’m not open to what you have to say Yeah, I don’t see the world that way where open mindedness is you’re just curious You know, it’s one of probably our favorite words on this show.
Cathy: Um, and, but what it, look at what it says next to it is curious and willing to learn. Because you and I were just having a discussion last week about there are people that claim to be curious, but are they willing to learn? They kind of will be like, Oh, I’m curious.
Todd: Well, and some people put those two terms as if they are the same.
Todd: And what you’re [00:23:00] trying to do is differentiate that because you can say you’re curious, but if there’s no, if none of it is penetrating you, then there’s probably not much curiosity, but you can go through the exercise and say, well, I’m just curious. I’m talking to the other yet. If none of it is. affecting the person, then how much willingness to learn are you really experiencing?
Cathy: Then the curiosity feels like placating, you know what I mean? It doesn’t feel like, is that the right word? Placating?
Todd: Let’s just decide it is.
Cathy: Okay. I think that’s the right word. Um, but it’s almost like pacifying, you know, kind of like, Oh yeah, I asked you some
Todd: questions. Or you’re checking it off your list.
Todd: Right. Like, Hey, I put myself in front of this person. So I. Could know, so nobody can accuse me of not having looked at it through their lens.
Cathy: Yes. When
Todd: in fact you may hear what they’re saying, but you’re not really looking at it through their lens.
Cathy: Right, exactly. So it’s like, you know, um, a willingness to be curious.
Cathy: Like it’s one thing, like I’ll just bring, you know, Kendrick back in. It’s one thing to be like, Oh, I’m [00:24:00] curious. I’ll watch the halftime show. It’s another thing to be like, Oh, I’m going to investigate this a little bit. See if I can learn something about what’s trying to be said here, you know what I mean?
Cathy: It’s like, it’s one thing to just be like, Oh, and then it’s another thing to be like, what does this mean? You know, what is someone trying to say?
Todd: Well, and I just want to say that this is really tricky because if we’re talking about who’s better, the chiefs or the Eagles, right. Um, it’s really easy just to kind of get on board with one perspective.
Todd: Oh, the Eagles are better, blah, blah, blah. The example that you and I came, that I came up with this morning was I was in a debate with one of my friends and, uh, you know, we have three daughters who have all had different experiences at school and there was episodes of school refusal. I don’t know if you call it that, but
Cathy: she’s school resistance, anxiety, school resistance.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: And we, uh, navigated that in a very specific way. Like for example, one time. My daughter just said she was crying in sixth grade and she’s like, I just can’t go in dad. I can’t go in. She’s like crying. So like I called you on the phone. I’m like, what do I do? How are we going to navigate [00:25:00] this? And what we ended up deciding was to bring her home and we let her chill out and recenter herself and
Cathy: settle down her nervous,
Todd: settle down her nervous system and watch a show.
Todd: And then she went back at like third period. I shared this story with a friend of mine and he’s like, yeah, well, I did it differently. I’m like, well, which way is that? And he’s like, well, she didn’t want to go to school. And I’m probably forgetting details of my situation and his situation, but just to make it simple.
Todd: And she didn’t want to go in and I kind of hold her hand to the school and I dropped them off. And I think the daughter was in fifth grade or something like that and basically forced her into the school, which is not something I decided to do with my daughter. And what I said to you was it’s so.
Todd: Sometimes easy for me, like, Oh, I can be curious. And I could, in that moment, and I even said this to my friend, cause he’s a dear friend. I’m like, I’m pretty sure the way I did it was right. And I’m pretty sure the way you did it was wrong. Now there’s not much curiosity [00:26:00] or willingness to learn on my side to be able to do that.
Todd: So I just want to like say, it’s so, it’s so easy to be righteous for me. It’s so easy to say that I’m pretty sure. I know the right way to do this.
Cathy: I know. And there’s a lot to that story that make it sound very like, and so that’s my story. When really you, the thing, him saying to him, I think you’re wrong and I’m right, is righteous.
Cathy: Like, I don’t know why you would need to say that. Well, even though, even
Todd: the language, if I say, I think you’re wrong. That’s different than me saying you’re wrong. So I want to give myself a little bit of grace if that is in fact what I said is like, I think you’re wrong. That doesn’t mean you are wrong.
Todd: But anyways, go ahead.
Cathy: Yeah. And I’m just more focused on why do you even need to say that to somebody? Because they’re obviously in the throes of a challenge and you’re in the throes of a challenge and you’re saying how you did it. They’re saying how they did it.
Todd: Well, and the reason it was not highly charged is because your buddy and it was like, A year before that time, so we had navigated through it, the emotions weren’t.
Todd: Yes, correct.
Cathy: And [00:27:00] so, you know, again, we started this conversation about this. And the thing is, is what I think you were saying is that why you believe you did it the quote unquote right way is our daughter was basically able to calm down, go back to school, felt supported, felt connected. And we eventually got through all that, right?
Cathy: Whereas forcing a child to do something and pushing them in the school and saying, you’re going to go there and you need to be there and you need to get there. Could be traumatizing. Like it could be a sense of disconnection or like no one’s listening to me or I feel afraid and no one is listening. It could be like my open mindedness in that area.
Cathy: It helps me understand. Like I do understand that with trauma, different people can have the exact same experience and process it differently. So one kid could be forced into the school and really have a memory or a. You know, like an anger toward their parents or the school for that experience another kid.
Cathy: It could be a blip. So trauma does not [00:28:00] manifest the same for everybody. You know, like the example that’s always given is two people can be in the same car accident and one of them. It just is held in their body is trauma and the other one is able to kind of move through it and they don’t hold it. So And I think the reason you were like, I know I did this correctly is you were able to maintain a connection.
Todd: Yeah. Well, the results of my situation worked out pretty good. And let’s just forget about his situation. It is possible that maybe the way I slash we decided to do it and bring the kid home and then all of a sudden it reinforced the kid’s nervous system and she got even more wired and less likely to go to school.
Todd: And that may have. The fact that we brought that her back could have, but it didn’t could have made it even harder for her to get back to school. Right? So, so in that, through that lens, it could be true for a different kid that my technique or whatever that is may have, Uh, [00:29:00] given me the opposite of what I wanted as far as the results.
Cathy: Yeah. One of the other pieces of narrow mindedness versus open mindedness is narrow mindedness, there’s an avoidance of any kind of discomfort. And open mindedness is a tolerance of ambiguity and a willingness to be wrong. And why I’m using that in this conversation is that you are You know, when, when we made those decisions, there’s so many decisions we made with all three of our girls were in the moment, we weren’t positive, sure about anything, but we were going off of the information that we had in the moment, what we understood about them and what we were willing and capable of doing.
Cathy: Right. And so there was a sense of, there’s no certainty. This is kind of ambiguous and it’s not even the same for all three of them. Like all three of them kind of dealt with things differently. And so it’s living in that uncertainty and knowing that if we got new information. That we would be willing to integrate that rather than say, this is the way you deal with school anxiety because As you know, before I had children, [00:30:00] my job at Children’s Memorial or Lurie Children’s Hospital was I was the teacher there and I was a therapist.
Cathy: So I did work with a lot of kids who had school anxiety. And we had a more of a behavior modification program there. We also had like a pulling from the strings program where you focused on their, you know, positive attributes and their goals. And there was more than just behavior modification, but. The baseline was behavior modification, right?
Cathy: So there was a lot of like pulling kids into school in ways that I were, I was like, this isn’t really that effective. Like I didn’t feel like it was all the time. A few times I had successes, but there was a lot of like, if you do this, this is you’ll get this. And kids weren’t always responding because you’re not reaching.
Todd: You’re giving them the nice shiny carrot or the stick, one or the other, like you’re. You’re negatively reinforcing the bad behavior, or you’re trying to entice them with some snack at the end of the day. And it was so cut
Cathy: and dry, like, if you do this, you get this. And there wasn’t enough ambiguity for, again, it’s been many years, so [00:31:00] I’m sure they have different methods now.
Cathy: But at the time, it wasn’t enough ambiguity for me, where I was like, Well, what if with this kid, we did let them relax for a little bit rather than punish them or give them a consequence for this? Like their nervous system is so jacked up. It doesn’t make sense to push them. And that to me feels like understanding human behavior like when we are Supporting a kid or an adult or whoever, we have to understand all the aspects of being human.
Cathy: We can’t just be stuck on one model. Like so many people have asked me over the years. They don’t anymore. I don’t hear it as much, but as a therapist, what model do you follow? What kind of therapist are you? And I’m like 80, 000 different models, like mindfulness, psychodynamic theory, attachment theory, gestalt theory, like you’re using everything that you have.
Cathy: Um, you know, my daughter texted me last week and said, um, What do you say to somebody who tells you that chiropractic doesn’t work? Yeah. Okay, because she had someone questioning her on her chiropractor. And I was like, to me [00:32:00] Everything holistic and, you know, medical doctors, Reiki, acupuncture, you know, chiropractic, it’s all here for us.
Cathy: So let’s see what works for us rather than say there’s only one way. Like, it’s again, another form of like being open to you. Someone may have a bad experience with chiropractic, but another person may have a good experience with it. That’s kind of the way I look at it.
Todd: Well, one thing, um, so the, the difference between narrow, like, I’m guessing some people listening might be like, well, how do I know if I’m in this narrow mindset or this open mindset?
Todd: And a few of the things that I do with my clients and even myself is I’m much more likely to be open minded when I am not doing short, quick breathing.
Cathy: Yeah,
Todd: right. Um, I am more so when I’m breathing well or when I’m finding myself in a curious mindset, which is kind of what we just said. Um, if I can, you know, really listen [00:33:00] from a conscious place as opposed to reacting from a defensive posture, but like sometimes body signals help me figure out where I am.
Todd: Usually it’s in my head. I’m like, okay, am I an open place or a closed place? But other times I’m like, okay, if I’m, um, Breathing short and shallow and quick, odds are I’m not in this kind of open minded place.
Cathy: Well, you’re definitely having somatic signals, you know, like this is where, and I also feel like, um, I can’t remember if it was you and I having the conversation about how a different is how, like, you can tell you’re not being a good listener when you’re just waiting to say, wasn’t that you and I talked about that
Todd: last week.
Cathy: And, you know, we were like, you can tell if you’ve become a better listener. Cause you said you’re, you know, your buddy, Frank, our friend, Frank is really good at like, he’ll listen and then. It’ll take him
Todd: like two seconds. And I feel like he’s like, really listening. No, there’s times when I’m like, is he just flaking out on me?
Todd: And it’s because he just took in what I said and now he’s [00:34:00] formulating a response. Whereas like even on this podcast, there’s times when you say something like, okay, I’m going to want to say this next, correct. And I tune out for the next 15 seconds. And I. Don’t register anything you just said, and I might be replying to something that has nothing to do with the last 15 seconds.
Todd: So listening is just a super skill if you can do it well. And one that I think most human beings, including me, need to continue continuously work on.
Cathy: Yeah. When it comes to radio and podcasting, we don’t have the luxury of those breaks because people don’t like those breaks. If you ever listen to a podcast and there’s like a big space between someone’s question and answer, you think your podcast went out.
Cathy: You know what I mean? Like Brene Brown does that a lot. She doesn’t have podcasts much anymore, but she would like take this break and you would be, I would always be like, wait, did it pause? But she was trying to do that listening, but it didn’t, it doesn’t translate that well in podcasting. So it can be challenging, but the concept of what you said in real time, like with.[00:35:00]
Cathy: People face to face is completely necessary.
Todd: So you want to know a few other behaviors. I’m just going to rattle these off and you either make a comment or you don’t, but ways in which you can find out if you’re in a narrow mind, it’s, okay, let’s hear it. Um, you either do some type of defensive posture, whereas flight freeze.
Todd: Free, uh, fight, freeze, feign, or fawn. What is it? Wait. Fight. Fight. Flee. Flee. Freeze. Freeze. Or fawn. Yeah. So, um, thanks for helping me get that out. You said feign and fawn. Um, you start blaming somebody. If you’re blaming somebody, it’s really hard to stay in an open, curious way. If you’re clinging to an opinion.
Todd: And that’s what I was doing with my friend, like, my opinion is this is the way this It works and I’m not going to be open to hear any evidence on how the opposite of that story might work.
Cathy: Well, let me, can I push back a little bit on that story? Because I appreciate you sharing the story cause you’re trying to demonstrate how you sometimes do this too.
Cathy: But if he were [00:36:00] to say, well, I hear you, but let me tell you why I think this was effective for this kid. You would have listened. I know you. Yes. So you wouldn’t have been like, no, no, no. Yeah. So in that moment. You are saying I right now with the information in front of me, I believe I did this correctly and you felt the need to tell him that, which is a whole nother thing, but I really do believe if he would have said, well, wait, I have some reasons.
Cathy: You would have been like, okay,
Todd: um, true. Um, just a few bar and then we’ll go on. Uh, you suppress emotions. So you’re just kind of blocking everything out, uh, staying in your head, I guess, uh, use distractions to numb yourself out and that could be food or the way I do it mostly is getting on my computer, just kind of like numbing out and not dealing with whatever it is.
Todd: Um, avoid all disconfirming data. Sure. Well, that’s in, unfortunately our algorithms are doing that for us. Yeah. So anyways, those are a few ways that you can tell if you are in a narrow mindset.
Cathy: Yeah. And you know, uh, Narrow mindedness necessitates that [00:37:00] we kind of don’t see ourselves in others. There’s a lack of empathy.
Cathy: There’s a belief that I’m somehow different or more special than other people or that, yeah, I get hurt and I have struggles, but other people don’t the same way I do. There’s kind of like this, you know, I was just about to say this narrow mindedness, exactly what we’re saying. There’s this like belief that we.
Cathy: No certain things, but other people don’t or that other people this is the one that really like makes my body hurt other people Don’t matter as much.
Sure.
Cathy: We’ve like dehumanized people maybe not to the full extent, but you dehumanize them enough We’re we’re like, yeah, they’re in pain. But yeah, whatever, you know, there’s like a real ability to shut off Our concern about other people, which again, I don’t have that ability.
Cathy: Actually, that’s not true. I can use all those things you said before. I can numb things out or I can. Um, but I, I struggle when I’m around other people who are struggling. I, I, [00:38:00] I, um,
Todd: like yesterday at breakfast, I feel, um, no, it was Saturday. Remember we had breakfast Saturday, and there was a bunch of people.
Todd: So I think we probably shared this on the podcast, but I’ll share it one more time. Cathy tunes into her environment energetically, and I don’t. I’m really good at compartmentalizing, it doesn’t mean I’m better than her or she’s better than me, but we experience the world very differently. And there was, you know, there’s a bunch of parents and their kids.
Todd: That were a hockey team and all the parents were at one long table and all the kids were at the other long table and you were like zeroing in on the kids who you thought, and maybe you were right, were lonely or weren’t sitting next to their friends or were like the one who was ostracized from the group.
Todd: And it’s just a heavy load to go through the world experiencing that.
Cathy: There was, so Where we were sitting there was the hockey table to the right [00:39:00] and there was a bunch of kids who I could tell didn’t like Their seat and a bunch of parents who were not talking to anybody And then there was a kid right in front of me who desperately wanted her mom’s attention I mean right in front of me and the mom was on her phone the whole time which again I try not to be super judgmental about that because she could have had an emergency You don’t know could have been trying to figure, you know, tell someone where they were.
Cathy: Like, I’m not saying mom, you’re bad. I’m just saying that that kid really was struggling and the son was barely connecting. And then to the left of me, these older women were talking about some people who had passed away. It was very hard to sit in the, um, in the stories that I was seeing and hearing.
Cathy: What I will take responsibility for is some of the stories are made up. Yeah, you’re guessing. They are personal experience bias in that I’m seeing, because I work with people and see people’s reactions and body language, I have built up kind of a story about, Ooh, when they’re coming in this way, here’s a feeling they’re having.
Cathy: I think I’m more skilled at it than most because I’m, [00:40:00] or then, you know, therapists have to be skilled at it. You have to read these things, right? This is what we do. But to Todd’s point, he said to me, you don’t know that. That this kid is upset. And I’m like, you’re right. I don’t, I don’t, I’m, I’m vibing. Like I’m feeling it a little bit, but I’m not always right.
Cathy: And that, and that conversation helped me because I, I was getting very upset. And Todd was like, you know, I don’t know if you know what’s going on. Can you be,
Todd: can you be curious about. You might be wrong. Yeah. I mean, I think honestly you probably are right, but you’re certainly not right all the time when you’re like engaging energetically with somebody else’s experience.
Todd: Um, but it, for me, it seems like, um. It’s really difficult to believe all of my stories, or, let me project it upon you. It’s really difficult for you to believe all your stories because sometimes the stories are what’s wrong with this world, and in this world, I mean, at this table of a [00:41:00] bunch of kids. Right.
Todd: Because you’re not looking at the seven kids that are having a good time over there. I
Cathy: actually am.
Todd: Oh, are you? Yes. And that’s
Cathy: a part of the story. Okay. Because I was just going to say. I don’t look at the world and go, cause I even said this to you. I said, you know, sometimes it can be like, Oh, look at how everyone’s so sad.
And
Cathy: I said, that’s not true. I said, there’s a table over there. I’ve been watching and their vibe is so good. You remember? So I don’t look at the world through a, through a glass half empty world. Part of the story of that hockey table was the kids in the middle were talking and sharing and conversing and the kids on the end were not included.
Todd: Right. And you will, are you okay with that challenge? I believe everything you just said, but most of your attention, and I think that’s why we’re, how we’re wired, right, is going to the kid who you think is, has no friends. Sure. Um, so that’s all.
Cathy: Well, and here, and here’s the thing. Sorry, I just, I have to break this apart because it’s, it’s not an accurate.
Cathy: Interpretation of what I’m feeling. I don’t have a story about [00:42:00] this kid has no friends. This kid does. Cause I know some kid at the loudest kid at the table is sometimes the most uncomfortable and insecure, lonely,
Todd: and
Cathy: the kid who’s quiet could be very content watching what’s going on. So I’m not making a.
Cathy: A prediction about this is who this person is. I’m just experiencing, at least I believe myself to be the emotion they’re experiencing in that moment. I’m like, Ooh, I’m feeling like like my stomach hurts or like I’m feeling this thing. And the thing that is most important, and I know you know this Todd, but I’m not trying to.
Todd: No, you do. You don’t decide to do this.
Cathy: No. And I, and I say to you sometimes, tell me a story and look at me because I need to get out of everyone’s world. Like I’m so hearing them. I can’t help. I can’t help but hear them and I can’t help but see this. And so, um,
Todd: I
Cathy: said, can you distract me? So I don’t want to like make those things up or feel those things if they’re indeed true.
Todd: And what’s interesting, I think that that’s a conscious move to say, Hey, I want to be distracted right now. Cause what I just said to you 10 minutes ago is distraction [00:43:00] is just numbing out, but it’s also a vehicle of self care for you. Like I’m been locked in on this kid for 10 minutes. You’re not helping him by thinking these thoughts, so instead, you’re not going to do anything, you’re not going to solve his problem, even if your story is true, so, and it’s like Draining your energy.
Todd: So like, Hey, Todd, will you tell me a story so I can distract myself? I think that that is a conscious move.
Cathy: Yeah. And we, and we, as we’re having that discussion, cause I was struggling a little bit. I think we were saying, I can’t help that kid right now, nor should I. And that’s their journey. And that’s not for me.
Cathy: I just think sometimes I, and so you’re right. I think that distraction is important. And I think there are a lot of people like me who pick up on things that people are experiencing and try and work it through their own body and figure it out. And. feel it for them and that doesn’t help, but we can’t help that.
Cathy: It comes in. Of course. It’s like, what do we do then? Because you said to me then these things don’t come in and you’re not sitting there saying, I’m not going to let them [00:44:00] come in. They just don’t. Yeah. So you and I are just kind of built with different antenna. Yeah.
Todd: And, um, you don’t choose to let it in.
Todd: It just comes in. Yeah. And, but you do have a choice of whether or not you want to ask me to distract yourself. That’s the work. And, um, and even as, as we’re sharing this, like I always think of distraction as a vehicle of unconsciousness and I’m 100 percent wrong because at breakfast on Saturday morning.
Todd: I think it’s a healthy move to distract yourself. So if you had asked me an hour ago, is distraction good or bad when it comes to, uh, numbing out your feelings? I would say, no, that’s bad when in fact, in your situation, I think it’s good because it’s not helping.
Cathy: Right. And it’s maybe more about. You know, and again, I’m parsing words, numbing versus like, I can’t, this is not mine, right?
Cathy: So I need to be distracted from what’s not mine. And, and as you know, when the girls were more little, when they were younger, distraction was helpful [00:45:00] because sometimes they would be upset about something and you’d say, well, Hey, come over here. What about this? Yeah. And that wasn’t numbing. Right.
Todd: That was, yeah, that was like, how am I going to.
Todd: Navigate this day. Yeah. And right now it seems like the distraction method is working is working. Remember we always used to say Um, Oh, do you want to go to bed now or in five minutes?
Cathy: Oh, I loved our choices.
Todd: Yeah. We’ll give, give your kids, and this goes back to Zen Parenting in 2010 or whatever, but I don’t think it’s manipulation, but you want your kid to go to bed, right?
Todd: So you can either come in there gruff and say, time to go to bed and they won’t want to go to bed. They want to read two more books. So then you say, do you want to read two or three more books or something like that? Give them the power because kids are used to not having power.
Cathy: Yeah, that’s exactly it. I was going to say, it’s not, it’s not about manipulation at all.
Cathy: It’s about giving them choice because this is human behavior. Again, if you understand the way people’s brains work, they want freedom. They want autonomy and they want choice. And if you’re making all the choices for them, they’re [00:46:00] either going to go one or two ways. Either. They’re going to acquiesce and let you do that.
Cathy: And they’re going to be totally compliant and have no version of themselves.
Todd: And then 10 years later, they’re going to be compliant when something, something great is happening to
Cathy: them. Or they rebel and they’re like, no, no, I’m going to read more books. And so you kind of want to find that middle place of, um, just like Todd said, that just gave me a warm feeling.
Cathy: Cause I forgot, you know, do you want two bucks or do you want three bucks? And you
Todd: know, they very rarely said two. And by the way, for you parents out there who have toddlers, like. I loved our kids. I loved reading books, but there’s time like, okay, let’s just do one book so I can go to bed. And now, as a father of a 21 year old, a 20 year old, and a 17 year old, I would love for them to want me to read them a book.
Todd: And it just doesn’t happen, because they’re grown, they’re, they’re young adults. Right, well of course. So, um, I miss it. Right. That’s all. I just, the very thing that drove me up a wall is what I miss.
Cathy: And I love that. And you’re right. And of [00:47:00] course we miss it. We miss all those things, you know, those little voices and everything.
Cathy: I think the only reason that those, those things that you’re saying often don’t help, especially moms is because part of the reason we don’t like reading books at night is not about reading books. It’s about that. We’ve been on all day and reading three more books is really hard because you’re wiped. So.
Cathy: You and I now have space. So if someone was like, you want to read three books, we’d be like, duh, of course we have plenty of space and mental, you know, capacity and we’ve had enough sleep, you know, how’s your sleep, sweetie?
Todd: All
Cathy: right. Is your sleep pretty good?
Todd: God, you woke me up. We did yoga this morning and I was in the middle.
Todd: A dream. Uh huh. My friend Charlie Donnelly is an author and, you know, sometimes there are dark themes. Yeah. And there’s a bunch of people being just hurt. Let’s just say that. And it just kept going on and on for like, I figured it’d be like a two minute dream and it was like a 20 minute dream. And then I somehow was talking to Charlie, I’m like, can you just end this story?
Todd: My gosh. And then you [00:48:00] woke me up to go to yoga.
Cathy: Grateful?
Todd: Yes. I’m like, enough of this dream. Enough
Cathy: of this
Todd: brutalness. This is just a terrible dream of people hurting other people. So, um, but I was in a deep sleep. Yeah, good. So that’s good. But, uh, not, not having the best dream.
Cathy: More well rested than we were when the kids were little.
Cathy: We’ll just say that.
Todd: That’s the truth.
Cathy: So you basically you gave a lot of good examples of the narrow mindedness, you know, resistance to ideas, black and white thinking they don’t, you don’t want discomfort. Your empathy is low and the confirmation bias, which as we were saying is, um, sometimes, you know, it’s our algorithm.
Cathy: If we’re on social media, we’re fed things we already believe, and as we all know, it’s creepy as hell because sometimes you’ll be like, hey, Are we going to go on this trip? I need a bathing suit. And all of a sudden you get on your, uh, Instagram and showing you bathing suits. It’s creepy. Um, and sometimes I feel like, have I even said these things out loud yet?
Cathy: And it’s on my, it’s creepy. So I don’t even want to know, but open mindedness, as we’ve already said, you know, dealing [00:49:00] with ambiguity, willingness to tolerate it. You know, learning, engaging in conversation, being empathetic and seeking, you know, one of my favorite things is to seek other perspectives. I used to do it.
Cathy: I’m going to be totally honest about this. I wasn’t planning on saying this, but when I was first writing, when I was writing like old school newsletters in the early two thousands, like when the kids were little. I would try and read about other people’s perspectives and how they saw things to make sure I didn’t step on people’s toes.
Cathy: I did it because I was like, I’m not going to put, you know, I’m writing this newsletter that’s going to a thousand people. I am not going to put something out there that someone’s going to say, why didn’t you think about this? You know what I mean? Like, what about this perspective? And so I would do a lot of due diligence to make sure that I was like acknowledging other people’s perspectives.
Cathy: And then I went too far, or then I started to lose my own perspective.
Todd: Right. Yeah. Yeah. That’s what I was going to say. Yeah, for sure. And you do that better than I do. I’m like, hey, this is my opinion. And if you disagree with me, that’s fine. And you, your [00:50:00] pendulum swung so far the other way, you kind of like, if you’re trying to make sure nobody gets offended by anything you say, then you’re probably not saying a whole lot.
Cathy: Correct. And that’s why I really like my age right now, because I do not know everything. I’m still learning everything. And I’m just, you know, talking about my, my new Kendrick understanding. Like I’m, I’m constantly learning new things and learning, you know, having new experiences. The differences between now and the early two thousands is I now have seen a lot of things happen.
Cathy: And I know that my viewpoint is based in a grounded place of You know, empathy and I’m not trying to win and I’m not trying to overpower. So I trust myself and I’m not saying someone won’t push back. I definitely have people say, you know, they unsubscribe or they send me a mean email. You can’t avoid that.
Cathy: And I think my ability to handle that has also gotten better. Um, so it’s like, sometimes at the very beginning, you’re trying to be like, I’m not gonna step on anyone’s toes or sometimes people go the other way and they’re trying [00:51:00] bueno, you know, because that’s all about, um, Making people angry. What’s the word I’m looking for?
Cathy: Like outrage.
Todd: Scandiosity. Yeah.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: Just, just.
Cathy: Pulling a Kanye. I’m thinking
Todd: of like a big monster just like stepping on all the buildings. Godzilla or King Kong or something.
Cathy: Everybody wants attention and some people are willing to get it negatively. Sure. Including our kids. Our kids do. Like when they’re very little.
Cathy: If they can’t get your positive attention. They’ll get it. They’ll go after your negative attempt. They’re experts. So can we finish with the really the deepest part of this, which is the anecdotal absolutism or the personal bias, uh, you know, personal experience bias. I, the reason I started with this is again, I, everyone listens to this podcast.
Cathy: It’s just something that you can think about in yourself. I find that when I’m talking to people and we’ll say, well, why do you, if I say, well, why do you believe this or why do you do this? There’s a lot of I and me language. There’s a lot of like, well, I had this experience and for me, this worked out and I had, you know, this [00:52:00] difficulty.
Cathy: And then for me, this is what worked out. Okay. So. Right there, all they’re doing is focusing on them. Yeah. I had this experience. And that’s great. That is a piece of evidence. Yeah. But if that’s your only reason to why you believe something, like for example, just some silly things, like people are like, Well, my grandma smoked till she was 95, so smoking must not be that bad for you.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: That’s ridiculous. Smoking is bad for you.
Todd: Ignoring a lot of evidence.
Cathy: Your grandma smoked till 95 and that’s amazing that she was able to have that experience and enjoy those cigarettes.
Todd: She’s what we like to call an outlier. She is
Cathy: an outlier. And so to believe that all the information, it’s like people saying, well, You know, I, you know, I don’t even want to get into vaccines because that becomes political, but people really make it about just their kid or them versus the information that is about research and reasoning and big groups and not just you.
Todd: And what kind of what you’re [00:53:00] describing is science, but, um, for some,
Cathy: for
Todd: some reason, uh, when people are like, well, I’ll sleep when I’m dead, I’m like, that’s just not a good philosophy because
Cathy: I
Todd: don’t feel very alive when I’m getting not good sleep. So, um, anyways, I don’t know why that came up to me.
Cathy: Well, and again, like I was saying, Tim Wall said it, I, I, I like him very much.
Cathy: So that’s not a, I’m not trying to be mean. What I’m saying is that sometimes we use it, um, you know. as a way of saying, let’s work hard. It becomes a metaphor rather than, you know, but I agree with you, Todd, that if that becomes people’s like, I don’t need sleep. I can scroll all night. I can work all day. I can stay out and have drinks until four, not great because you’re really not going to be able to do.
Cathy: That well, right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, so anyway, um, so more to this, just some language, um, that I wanted to throw out there that might be new egocentric reasoning, using yourself as [00:54:00] the default measure for reality.
Todd: I think a lot of us do that,
Cathy: right? Like the, one of the best parts of, um, Having Google and access to the Internet is that we do now have access to a lot of information like, you know, all of us from Gen X and other, you know, boomers or whatever.
Cathy: We’ve talked about how we used to get information like what’s the Tom Petty story that you always tell?
Todd: Um, yeah, there was some stand up comedian that talked about, uh, he never knew where Tom Petty was from, and he went years not knowing, simply because, um, there was no access. Like, unless you wanted to go to the library, it just wasn’t very simple.
Todd: And nowadays, if you want to know where Tom Petty’s from, all you got to do is type it in. And You know, he, his like punchline is Jacksonville, Florida. Like I struggled for four years to figure out. And I don’t even know if he’s from Jacksonville. I think he is Tallahassee, something like that.
Cathy: But didn’t he say he would like go to bars and ask people and it would become this big discussion and debate, you know?
Cathy: So it was like. They could talk about where Tom Petty’s from [00:55:00] forever and not really know until something came up. And we no
Todd: longer have that vehicle of discussion because the proof, if you believe what you see on the internet, is on the internet. Like, I don’t think the internet’s going to lie about where Tom Petty is from, but pre internet.
Todd: We all can have different stories of where Tom Petty is from.
Cathy: Well, and even that is discernment, right? Like, if I read a Rolling Stone article and Tom Petty said, I was born here, I believe that. If I’m on some random page, maybe even Wikipedia is sometimes not right, I may question it. You have to discern your sources, right?
Cathy: But they, you know, that’s a big part of it is now we don’t need to be the default for reality. We have a reality around us And we can still own our story and say, I believe in my story, meaning I want to do, I choose this because of my experiences. I am who I am because of my experiences, but it doesn’t mean everyone else should believe that we have this egocentrism about it.
Cathy: Um, egocentric ism. And then also, I love [00:56:00] this dismissive individualism. Overvaluing one’s experience and invalidating other people. That is like my, what is the word, that, that gets me. I get angry when I talk to people and they’re so like dismissive about their own. It’s the same thing, meaning as the, the, you know, egocentric reasoning, but there’s something more like dismissing another person’s experience and saying, Oh no, they’re not in pain or no, they’re, you know, I’ve had a migraine.
Cathy: That’s not a migraine. It’s like,
Todd: What? Well, and the minute we compare pain, it’s just, it’s not a good idea.
Cathy: Exactly. And then, you know, narrow scope thinking, not recognizing other people’s backgrounds, context, like this is where we get into things like, you know, things that became so contentious in a political arena like privilege, you know, people would be like, well, I had a hard time when I was a kid, you know, because of this and this and this.
Cathy: Of course you did. Every kid has hard times, but can you see how other people growing up in different environments with less access to things than you [00:57:00] had an experience that was less privileged because they didn’t have access? It’s not about you had it easy. And, or that, you know, yeah, that you had it easy and you didn’t have it easy, we all have
Todd: hard times,
Cathy: but they also had a hard time for different reasons that were beyond their control that we’re thinking.
Cathy: And again, I still can hear people saying, well, it’s beyond my control too. I know, but it’s the whole thing about being born on third base. You know, it’s the best description of some people. I know I was. You know, I was born in, you know, in, I’m a white female from a middle class family in the state of Illinois.
Cathy: And my parents were teachers. I had access to education. I see that. And I also see that a lot of my students at Dominican, a lot of, you know, people I’ve had in my life as clients, they didn’t have access to that. So their challenges make sense to me, why these things are harder, why this is difficult rather than they should just be like me.
Cathy: That’s egocentric. That’s not understanding another person’s experience. [00:58:00] So, anyway, I just, as you can tell, I get worked up about these things. It’s good stuff. It is, and worked up not angry, but worked up like I want to, this is what it’s about, open people’s minds. Because part of our problem right now in our very divisive, you know, Uh, world right now is this inability to see other people like ourselves, everybody’s got a reason why they’re doing what they’re doing.
Cathy: Everybody has a history that has taught them a certain way. Everybody has a belief about what success means. Everybody has like their, their, you know, beliefs in order. We always talk about what loves, you know, you have an order, what do you put first, you know, different access to things. So can we be open minded to that rather than completely egocentric about what’s right and wrong?
Cathy: Right. I’m with you. What
Todd: do you think, Todd? Um, I, I, I want to pull up, uh, Atticus Finch, because doesn’t he teach Scout about empathy? Oh, well, yeah, through role modeling and I don’t know if [00:59:00] this is it or not.
Uh, no, it’s an agreement reached by mutual consent. Now, here’s the way it works.
You concede the necessity, go into school, we’ll keep right on reading the same every night. Just as we always have. Is
Todd: that a bargain? No, that’s not the one. Oh, scouts.
Cathy: There just didn’t seem to be. Atticus, I mean, he you know, he role modeled it. He, you know, being a lawyer for somebody that man representing a black man, black man, um, and the black community in that town. It was representing everybody giving a viewpoint that other people were very sure and certain it could only be one way because they had preconceived notions about this person or about the color of their [01:00:00] skin.
Cathy: And you know, what Atticus did was say, human beings. We’re all human beings here. Um, and it’s why that book, how many people have you asked? What’s your favorite book? And they say To Kill a Mockingbird.
Truth.
Cathy: Yet they believe that, but they don’t act like this way in society. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think we like the idea of things, but how do we then show up in that way?
Todd: It’s the same, um, you know, the idea of a bunch of yoga practitioners talk about mindfulness and then they go flip somebody off the minute somebody cuts them off in the street.
Cathy: Or they become super grifters and they’re trying to make money off of everybody. And I, yoga teachers should make money, don’t get me wrong, but there’s, I’ve unfortunately had of some teachers who then try and make money off of things that they probably shouldn’t be.
Cathy: Or a bunch of
Todd: people at church. Praying to God and community, and then the minute they get out, they forget all of those things. They’re hateful towards somebody or for groups of people. I found the
Cathy: Atticus thing. Okay, let’s hear it.
There’s been a single pig scout to get along a lot better with all kinds of folks.
They never really understand a person until they [01:01:00] consider things from his point of view. The decline inside of his skin, walk around in it.
Todd: There you go. Thanks,
Cathy: Atticus. That’s right. Stand in people’s shoes and let me say this because we have even more information than we did when, you know, Harper Lee wrote that book.
Cathy: You walk around in their shoes, you do your best and you also keep listening because you can’t. Assume you understand what someone goes through. You have to hear their perspective on it and listen and continue learning and not think you already got it. There’s not a lot. You’ve got to be open to other people’s perspective, regardless of how, um, how many times you’ve thought you’ve put yourself in their shoes.
Cathy: Boom.
Todd: See you next week. Keep dragging.
Round two. Change a little bit. And change a [01:02:00] little bit. Pretty pleasant.
