Todd and Cathy discuss Mel Robbins book “Let Them”, the importance of nuance in self-help concepts. They also touched on the importance of trust and communication in relationships, and the concept of “letting go” in personal relationships. Lastly, they shared their thoughts on various TV shows and movies, and emphasized the importance of self-awareness and emotional expression in relationships.

For the full show notes, visit zenparentingradio.com.

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Summary

Zen Parenting Conference and Self-Help

Todd and Kathy discussed the upcoming Zen Parenting Conference, which has been taking up most of Todd’s time. They also touched on the topic of self-help, noting its resurgence and the repackaging of existing ideas. Todd expressed his appreciation for self-help but emphasized the importance of nuance, using Mel Robbins’ book “Let Them” as an example. He mentioned that he plans to write a substack about the topic and acknowledged that the concept of “let them” has been around for a long time, even though it’s now being called a “theory.”

Zencon 25 Event and Parenting Tips

Todd discussed the upcoming Zencon 25 event, which starts a week from Friday, January 24th. He mentioned that Glenn Phillips, the lead singer of Toad the Wet Sprocket, will be performing an acoustic set and sharing stories. Todd and Kathy will also be on stage for a couple of hours before the musical act. Todd encouraged everyone to attend the event, even offering to help with ticket costs for those who are interested but facing financial issues. He also discussed a section from a book called “Restoring Our Girls,” which highlights phrases to avoid when dealing with daughters. Todd emphasized the importance of being mindful of the language used when interacting with children.

Building Trust in Sensitive Conversations

Todd discussed the importance of trust and communication in relationships, particularly when dealing with sensitive topics such as sexual assault. He emphasized the need to question negative myths and stereotypes about girls, and to create a non-judgmental environment where they feel comfortable sharing their experiences. Todd also highlighted the importance of not shutting down conversations with phrases like “I don’t believe you,” and instead encouraging open dialogue. He concluded by briefly touching on the topic of “I told you so,” which he described as a potentially damaging phrase in relationships.

Balancing Self-Reflection and Conflict

Todd discussed the concept of “let them” from a self-help book, emphasizing the importance of allowing others to be themselves and not trying to control their feelings or actions. He noted that while this approach can be beneficial, it should not be taken to an extreme where it leads to passivity or avoidance of conflict. Todd also highlighted the need for personal growth and self-reflection, suggesting that one’s own reactivity and aversion to conflict should be investigated. He used the example of a yoga class to illustrate the balance between allowing others to have their own experiences and ensuring their safety.

Balancing Letting Go in Relationships

Todd and the speaker discussed the concept of “letting go” and its application in personal relationships. They agreed that while the idea is not new, it can be easily manipulated or oversimplified. They also discussed the importance of self-awareness and nuance in applying this concept, emphasizing that it’s not about being hyper-focused on others’ experiences but about finding a balance. They touched on the idea that sometimes, letting go means not trying to fix or control a situation, but rather allowing it to unfold naturally. The conversation also highlighted the need for individuals to explore what feels right for them, rather than blindly following a concept.

Sesame Street Characters and Interstellar

Todd discussed his favorite Sesame Street characters, including Oscar the Grouch and Snuffleupagus, and how they represented different emotions. He also shared his thoughts on the character Murray, who he believes could still be on the show. Todd then shifted the conversation to his recent viewing of the movie Interstellar, expressing some difficulty in understanding certain aspects but overall enjoying it. He also mentioned starting to watch the show Land Man, which features Jon Hamm and Debbie Moore. Towards the end, Todd acknowledged that the women in Land Man were not well-written, but he was willing to give the show more time.

Balancing Personal Growth and Relationships

Todd discussed the importance of self-awareness and emotional expression in relationships, particularly in parenting. He emphasized the need to balance involvement in children’s lives with personal growth and emotional well-being. Todd also highlighted the potential for oversimplification in self-help literature, such as Don Miguel Ruiz’s 4 Agreements, and the importance of considering one’s own consciousness and intuition. He concluded by encouraging the group to continue their personal growth journey while maintaining a balance between personal and communal responsibilities.

Blog Post

Embracing ‘Let Them’: Navigating the Nuance of Self-Help and Personal Growth

As Zen Parenting Radio approached its landmark 800th episode, hosts Todd and Cathy delved into a significant discussion that resonates with their audience—Mel Robbins’ “Let Them” theory. This concept, explored in episode 798, invites individuals to practice detachment by allowing others to make their own choices and have their own experiences without unnecessary interference.

What is the “Let Them” Theory?

In her latest book, Mel Robbins introduces the “Let Them” theory, suggesting it’s healthy to allow others to navigate their own paths independently. This idea aligns with Zen Parenting’s core philosophy, which emphasizes the importance of saying yes to children whenever possible to make the no’s more impactful. However, Todd and Cathy urge listeners to recognize the complexities that come with such seemingly straightforward advice.

A Resurgence of Self-Help

Listeners have noticed a resurgence of self-help principles, refreshed by authors like Mel Robbins and Gabby Bernstein. With books revisiting classic ideas and offering new language, self-help is becoming more accessible and practical for a modern audience. Yet, Todd and Cathy caution against taking these concepts at face value without acknowledging their underlying complexities.

The Nuance of Personal Responsibility and Empathy

In discussing the “Let Them” theory, Todd and Cathy point out that while it may liberate those who take too much responsibility for others’ emotions, it’s also essential to remain supportive and empathetic. According to the hosts, personal growth often entails discomfort and requires a careful balance between healthy detachment and meaningful engagement in relationships.

Embracing Complex Emotions

While the “Let Them” approach may alleviate stress, Todd and Cathy emphasize the importance of paying attention to one’s emotional landscape. Ignoring emotions such as jealousy, anger, or sadness can hinder personal insights. The hosts advocate for a nuanced approach that involves continuous self-investigation and reactivity management.

Aligning with Zen Parenting Ideals

Zen Parenting has long advocated for meaningful involvement in nurturing relationships and personal development. In their recent episode, Todd and Cathy reinforce this ethos, suggesting that the key to successful parenting and self-growth lies in balancing guidance with respect for autonomy.

Moving Forward with a Balanced Approach to Self-Help

The “Let Them” theory, like many self-help ideas, can offer valuable guidance. However, Todd and Cathy remind their audience to integrate these teachings with their self-awareness and personal experiences. Self-help should be an evolving journey tailored to an individual’s unique circumstances.

For listeners and readers navigating the dance between letting go and stepping in, Zen Parenting suggests that balance remains essential. They invite their community to continue discussing how to foster healthy relationships and personal development, such as at their upcoming ZenCon25 event.

In the journey of self-discovery and relationship nurturing, Zen Parenting encourages everyone to stay present and committed to both personal and communal growth.

Transcript

[00:00:00]

Todd: Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is episode number 798, just two away from the big 800. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s well being. is a parent’s self understanding. Uh, why don’t you tease the topic and then we’re going to move on over to, uh, did you do a Zen parenting moment?

Todd: I think we didn’t even talk about that.

Cathy: Uh, I did last week, but then we talked about it on the podcast last Tuesday cause I, I sent it out on Monday.

Yeah. Okay. You

Cathy: know, I mean, what I’ll say right now is we are in the middle of getting ready for the Zen parenting conference and that takes up the totality of my day.

Cathy: Because there’s a lot to get [00:01:00] done, um, in the next, how many days, not 10 days?

Todd: Uh, I don’t know.

Cathy: So writing a substack, even though I did write one last week, I said I was going to write one on Friday and that was not going to happen. I will do my best to write one for this week.

Todd: So why don’t you tease what the topic is?

Cathy: Okay. So I wanted to talk about a little bit about the nuance of the, um, The whole idea of let them, you know, Mel Robbins has a new book out called let them She calls it the let them theory. I I wanted to say that a lot of things that she says in the book are Not necessarily new they’re just kind of repackaged with some new language.

Cathy: I’ve noticed Todd that self help is making a comeback Have you noticed that as well? No, well It’s kind of making a comeback in that, like, there’s these, uh, like, for example, Gabby Bernstein has a new book out called Self Help, and what she did is she took IFS, internal family systems, and like, made it, like, put it into her own language and explained it in [00:02:00] a way that that maybe was a little more accessible.

Cathy: Yeah. Okay. And you know, it’s kind of like way, way, way back when, when Marianne Williamson took A Course in Miracles and wrote Return to Love and made it more accessible. And not that self help has ever gone away. I’m just noticing that there is a, um, a repackaging of things where I’ve been reading self help since I was 16 years old.

Cathy: And you kind of see the cycles like come and go and we’re in a new one right now. At least it feels like it. And, and so, but I want to say something before you move on. Sure. I’m not saying it’s bad. I like self help. It’s, but

Todd: I think that Hold on, let me write, let me bookmark that. Sweetie likes self help.

Todd: I had no idea.

Cathy: Well, I want to make sure that, that this, that people don’t think I’m like going to go after it. Cause I’m not. I, I just think that what I’ve learned through the cycles and in my own development and growth as a therapist and as somebody who writes books. Is there’s a lot of nuance and, and Mel Robbins book, like, I think Hay House [00:03:00] published it.

Cathy: And even before it came out, a hundred thousand copies had been ordered. So this book is everywhere, right? That was even before she was on Oprah and before. So people are going to be reading this book. Most people have, or they’ve seen interviews. And I just thought it would be interesting for us to talk about the nuance because we actually even got.

Cathy: Um, I got two emails, one last week and one the week before saying, Hey, you guys talk about let them, or you’ve been talking about that for the last 14 years. Even though we didn’t call it a let them theory, it’s the same idea. And it’s not just us, it’s, it’s been around like it’s universal principles. So I wanted to just kind of share the challenges we can have with it.

Todd: All right. Let’s, uh, but I’m going to pivot over to this sweetie.

Todd: What’s the name of the song?

Cathy: This is Good Intentions and you played this one last week as well, you know.

Todd: Yeah, who cares?

Cathy: Okay. Well, it kind [00:04:00] of goes with our theme because our theme is good talk, good intentions, etc.

Todd: Um, so Glenn Phillips is the lead singer of Toad the Wetsprocket. We’ll be joining Kathy and I and anybody else who’s attending ZenCon 25.

Todd: That starts a week from Friday. That’s January 24th. Um, he’s playing on Friday night, a two hour acoustical set. He’s going to play music. He’s going to say stories, tell stories. You and I are going to be on stage for two hours before that. We’ve got pre conference workshops planned and this

Cathy: is Just because, for those of you who are wondering, all you have to do is go to the zencon25.

Cathy: com website to see, but the conference is on Friday and Saturday. It starts at 3 p. m. on Friday, pre conference workshops, okay? And then, There’s a break for dinner and then Todd and I talk for a couple hours or, you know, somewhere in there. We play videos. We have fun. We do all sorts of things. And then Glenn is then the musical act that night.

Cathy: The next [00:05:00] day, Saturday, starts at 9 a. m. and goes to 5. 30. So that’s the schedule of the conference. So you

Todd: don’t forget about morning yoga at 7 a. m. for those who want to join us for that.

Cathy: Correct. And actually even Friday starts at 2 if you’re on Team Zen because we have a Team Zen, um, Team Zen. What is it called when everyone comes together?

Todd: Zen Talk?

Cathy: No! When we’re all getting together in the same room. It’s like a reception. We’re gonna

Todd: huddle.

Cathy: Oh, it’s called

Todd: a reception. Okay. It’s

Cathy: a Team Zen reception at 2. But that’s just for Team Zen members.

Todd: Um, and so we have John Duffy, Dr. Solomon, a bunch of other wonderful guests. So if you’re interested and you haven’t bought your ticket yet, uh, just go to ZenCon25.

Todd: com. If money’s an issue, send me an email at Todd at ZenParentingRadio. com and we’ll figure something out.

Cathy: If you want to come. We’ll make sure you get there.

Todd: Yeah. And

Cathy: we’re, this is it. So don’t, don’t be like, well.

Todd: This is the last hurrah. Do it. Um, and before we get into Let Them, um, I, I want to just, uh, talk about your book called Restoring Our Girls, how real conversations [00:06:00] shape our daughters lives, help them with teen challenges and remind them that they matter.

Todd: Yep. And I don’t know what section this is, but you have a part in here called Eliminate phrases. And I’m just going to say what these phrases are. First, tell me why.

Cathy: Don’t say them all.

Todd: Oh.

Cathy: Because that’s part of the, and actually we’ve talked about this before. Do you think it’s okay to talk about it again?

Todd: Yes, of course. Okay. Um, you’re, so why did you write this part? So this is, um, just kind of a guide of things to try to stay away from when you’re dealing with your kids.

Cathy: Basically, I didn’t have to write it myself. These were the things that girls had told me drive them crazy that their parents say. So, or adults say, sometimes it’s was coaches and, you know, sisters and, uh, you know, that kind of thing.

Cathy: But these are the phrases that really turn girls off and shut them down or make them very defensive.

Todd: Just as I’m reading these, I’m going to read it and then you’re going to give me one sentence or less. Okay. Okay. Uh, but as you’re hearing them and you’re [00:07:00] listening to this, think if you ever say these things to your kids and think of other things.

Todd: Right. And you’re not going to do all of them, right? No. How many do you want me to do, sweetie? Why, why are you against me doing all of them?

Cathy: Because I’ve made that kind of like a part of like why you need to go to the book.

Todd: Oh, does that

Cathy: make sense?

Todd: Yeah. So yeah, I got it. Um, okay. So let’s start at the end and just, cause I don’t know if we went through all of them.

Todd: Okay, great. Uh, the last one you have in this book and I’m not going to do all of them, sweetie. Don’t worry. I don’t believe you. Oh,

Cathy: I don’t believe you. Worst. Um, so I don’t believe you is, Uh, it has many different levels to it. Um, there is the deepest level and I go, uh, I spend a lot of time on that in that chapter of when a girl tells you that something happened to them, someone hurt them, someone touched them, someone, there was a situation where they felt assaulted and we question what they’re telling us.

Cathy: Okay. And, um, again, these things are very, um, These things are very entwined with [00:08:00] these myths about that girls are untrustworthy or that girls lie or that they’re manipulative. It goes with these, um, stereotypes or these, I don’t even want to call them that, like these, um, Things that are said about girls that are negative and it somehow blends into if a girl tells you they’ve been harmed by somebody that there’s somehow lying or trying to become famous or trying to get attention.

Cathy: And we know that as far as the rate of, um, when someone says they have been assaulted, the you know, rate of that not being the case is somewhere between 2 percent and 7%, which is the same as any other crime that occurs. So it’s the same as if somebody says that some, their house was robbed, only two to 7 percent would ever say that.

Cathy: And it’s not true. You know, they’re doing it for a manipulative reason. It’s the same thing with self with sexual assault. The reason I’m saying that is because there really isn’t any, um, [00:09:00] research to back the idea that, that, you know, evidence, um, that girls are lying or, you know, for that matter, we have a lot more information about the fact that boys are molested and raped and sexually assaulted as well.

Cathy: Um, and it’s the same thing. Like there is this, um, I don’t know, it, it’s unfortunate because, you know, That’s why I wrote, you know, a chapter about it because I have to share all the pieces of information of how we got here, why people don’t believe girls and why we need to question that and most important, why we need to question saying, I don’t believe you, even with smaller things like when our girls are telling us a story and they’re telling their side to say, I don’t believe you, I think you did something wrong.

Cathy: shuts them down. It completely, uh, keeps the conversation from continuing. Now, there’s also a section in there, in there about that, yes, sometimes girls lie. Why do, why does a kid lie? Why does a teenager lie? You know, they’re worried about getting in trouble. They’re worried about getting their friends in trouble.

Cathy: They’re worried [00:10:00] about, um, you know, you thinking about them differently, disappointing you. I’m not saying kids or teens never lie. I’m saying, I don’t believe you. Shuts down the conversation saying, well, that’s really interesting. Tell me more or let me hear more about that. Or how did you get to that? You know, how did you get to that idea?

Cathy: Or well, then what really happened continues the conversation where our kids can get to a point where maybe they can share. And if you have, if they have a relationship with you where they feel you trust them or that you have a trusting relationship, nonjudgmental, they’re going to be a lot more likely to tell you upfront in the first place.

Cathy: So, that chapter is the most dense one that I don’t believe you.

Todd: Sure.

Cathy: Because, as you can see, there’s a lot to say.

Todd: Um, should we do one more or do you want to, uh, It would be much shorter if it, with The other one is, I told you so.

Cathy: Yeah, that’s just, I mean, that’s a simple one. It’s like, that’s our need to win.

Cathy: you know, where if we tell our kids, Hey, this might not be a good idea and they do it anyway, [00:11:00] or we say, Hey, you should maybe choose, um, you know, uh, choose this sport instead of this sport. And then they decide that they want the other sport later. We like to tell them or demonstrate to them why we were so right and why we’re so smart.

Cathy: And unfortunately we do that by saying, I told you so, which is a, Talking about shutting down a relationship. It’s very offensive to our girls as far as it doesn’t make them feel like you’re more supportive. It makes them feel like you need to win.

Todd: Oh, you know. Yeah. Um, okay. So we are going to jump into let them.

Todd: Yeah. Where do you want to begin? You

Cathy: ready?

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: So, like I said, you know, I have been following this, this book’s release, um, and it, it didn’t surprise me at all. Like Mel Robbins has a big podcast and, you know, she had her 54321 book that came out several years ago. And I know that she tries to take, her whole concept is, I want to take, um, you know, Things that [00:12:00] maybe get too complicated and simplify them.

Cathy: I love that. This is not a problem to me. So this new idea about let them, this is, let’s relate this to what we talk about with, you know, our own parenting. There is a part of what you and I have talked about for 14 years or, you know, 20 years for as long as we’ve been doing this, about allowing your kids to be who they are.

Cathy: You know, they don’t want to be in the sport that you wanted them to be in. Let them, right. They, um, they don’t want their room to be all decorative and perfect. They want it to have posters all over the wall and, and, you know, they want to paint things and make it their own. Let them, like, we have always had a philosophy of.

Cathy: saying yes as much as possible. So the no’s Yeah,

Todd: exactly. Make the no’s more meaningful by saying yes as often as you can.

Cathy: Yeah. And I mean as often as you can, not in a way where you are, um, you know, Like not having boundaries or not having structure in the home, but in a way where you [00:13:00] recognize it’s their life.

Yeah,

Cathy: because that’s really the core of this book is the whole idea of let them is You can’t control other people. Okay, that’s the most simple way, you know to explain it You can’t control other people and the you know, the most important lesson for me. Sorry. I’m plugging my Plugging my computer in, it always takes a second, um, and the most important lesson that I always need to learn is you can’t control other people’s feelings or you don’t have sway over what other people are going to feel and if they’re feeling something, you have to let them.

Cathy: Okay, so I like this concept, it can be helpful to my brain, um, but I also think that sometimes because when self help makes a comeback, like it is right now and somebody writes a book that’s a bestseller. People can take it very face value and very literal and they lose track of the nuance. Yeah, it might

Todd: be an overstatement, but they can sometimes weaponize a teaching.

Cathy: Correct. And they’ll say, but I thought you said this, or, you know, I thought I was [00:14:00] just supposed to let them, like, I wanted to give a few examples. Sure. Um, let’s say that Have you read the book yet or no? Um, only part of it. Okay. So I’m not done. Like the, the whole second half of the book is called is, and then I want to make this point is, You know, the first half is let them and then I, the second half I think is let me, which is about, um, focusing on what you can do.

Cathy: So I’m not saying that Mel Robbins doesn’t focus on the nuance of making sure you pay attention to yourself. But I, again, I think things can get lost when it becomes pop culture.

Todd: Right.

Cathy: So, for example, if you and I were in a marriage and you always wanted to Oh, we are in a marriage. We are. And you always wanted to spend time in one room.

Cathy: And I was like, but I really like this room and I want to spend time in this room. We could be very much like, let’s go with the let them theory and I’m just going to let you sit where you want to sit. I’m going to sit where I want to sit. Sounds good in theory, right? I like it. And for the most part, maybe 80 percent of the time [00:15:00] that’s going to work.

Cathy: Okay. But if we start to recognize that We don’t want to sit in the same room together. Like I want you in another room or I’m kind of like relieved that you’re in another room or we aren’t talking about why we want to be in different rooms. Like sometimes it’s just because I want a room with a fireplace and you want a room with a, you know, lazy boy.

Cathy: It can be very simplistic. But there is, I think there can be a challenge when we talk about let them with allowing ourselves to avoid conflict. Avoidance. Avoidance. Right. Yeah. And that we will then say, well, they’re upset. I’m just going to let them. And something that we have to have a conversation about next to the idea of we can’t control other people’s lives or behavior, which is, I think, the basis of Zen parenting.

Cathy: The other part of Zen parenting, the other grounding element, or another leg or arm of it, is You have to go to the core of what the problem is,

Todd: if there is

Cathy: a

Todd: problem. It’s like short term, long term stuff. [00:16:00] I can weaponize the let them. Well, I’m just going to let you sit in the other room. Yeah. And, uh, because I don’t want to deal with this right now.

Todd: Yeah. And if I spend the next 10 years of my life sitting in another room as you, because I don’t want to deal with this right now, the, the short term is, it is easier. Yes. But the long term results in complete disconnection from the person I’m supposed to be connected with. Yeah.

Cathy: Correct. And, and if we become, because I think it can, what this book could lead to for some who are unwilling to look at the nuance is it could be passivity.

Cathy: It could be a sense of, Hey, I’m going to throw up my hands and I don’t have control of any of this. And so I’m not going to worry about it.

Todd: Yeah. Personal growth work is for me work. Like some it’s stepping into discomfort. And then if I hear like the, Oh, my new mantra is let them. That I’m not doing any of my work to investigate my own reactivity, to investigate my own, [00:17:00] uh, aversion to dealing with conflict.

Cathy: Right. And this gets really like, you know, I’m kind of rubbing my fingers together because this gets really interesting and messy. And I mean messy in the best way where it’s not always, you know, it’s not absolute, it’s not do this or do that. It’s like a lot of mess in between, which is that for maybe someone like me, my hard work is letting them.

Cathy: Because I would be much more apt to be like, you know, between you and I, if something was going on with the girls and I wanted to get over involved or ask too many questions, then I’m not really letting them. I’m getting over involved, and so my work is to not ask so many questions, right? This may

Todd: not work, but I think it’s a benign example.

Todd: Okay. We were coming out of yoga this morning. Uh huh. And you, I don’t want to say were worrying, but you noticed that our instructor is worrying about an older man in the, in the class. Yes. Because he’s older and he’s trying and he’s

Cathy: gotten. And can I say as a, as a former yoga teacher, [00:18:00] I used to worry about certain things.

Cathy: people in my class because if they were older or overexert, I actually used to tell you about one of my yoga students all the time who he would overexert so much that he couldn’t breathe. And that’s not yoga. So if I’m the teacher, I want to, because did you notice? That in the class today, she was like, Hey, stay at stage one.

Cathy: Like she was trying, because there was too much overexertion where this guy couldn’t breathe.

Todd: Right. Yes. I, I, I under, I did not notice that because I wasn’t paying attention.

Cathy: That’s your point. I think it’s paying too much

Todd: attention. Yeah, and I’m probably, not that I’m not paying enough attention. In this situation that’s like, you know, of course if the guy all of a sudden passed out, I would go, I would call 911.

Todd: Right. But I’m not going to worry too much about this guy and I’m not going to worry about the, the instructor who’s worrying about this guy. Yet you are worried about the instructor who’s in charge of helping, making sure this guy stays safe.

Cathy: I was feeling her experience because I was listening, so I’m in the [00:19:00] class listening to what she’s saying.

Cathy: And I know a lot of her cues were for this. person. And I knew that because I’m connect, you know, I, I know her, but I also, as a former yoga teacher, I know what she’s doing because you have to change your cues to make sure, you know, Hey, you don’t need to go to step three here. You can stay at step one. And so I just, yeah, I shared that

Todd: with you.

Todd: And you probably weren’t, but was there, let them like, just let, let. Therese, worry about that guy and then have your own yoga experience. And you know, it’s so easy for me to come in and say that to you.

Cathy: Well, I would, I think again, that’s nuanced. I’m not saying I wasn’t having my own yoga experience. You and I are so different in this way because this is not an anomaly.

Cathy: I am like this is

Todd: a

Cathy: pattern

Todd: of our marriage. I’m in my world, and you’re in your world, and everybody else, not everybody else’s world, but you’re tuning into other people’s world that happen to be around us. And I’m usually not, unless I’m intentional about it.

Cathy: Correct. And, [00:20:00] and I would say that the visual I got when you said that is like a magnet, even though that’s not exactly on purpose.

Cathy: But it’s like, I can’t help but notice what other people are experiencing. It’s not me going, I’m going to be hypervigilant or I’m not consciously trying to be hypervigilant. I don’t walk in the room and go, now what’s going on? I’m assessing it. It just happens. It’s, it’s like a. You know, this is what my neuropathways do.

Cathy: Now, I think where I can use this theory about let them or, or letting go, which I’ve been trying to do, you know, my practice, that’s what I mean, like this whole idea of let them is not new because what, what we do is we, Become conscious of what we’re noticing and we choose whether or not that’s something we can do anything about.

Cathy: We’re like, is that something I can do? You know, is that in my route? Is that in my locus of control? Is that something I can change? Is that something that is for me? Is that something I should be running through my body? And the answers to all those things are no.

Todd: You know what I think about when I, you know, I’ve never read this book.

Todd: I [00:21:00] didn’t know it existed until you brought it up to me this morning.

Cathy: That’s not true. We’ve been talking about it for two weeks. You’ve been talking

Todd: about Mel Robbins. I didn’t know she, I didn’t, I knew she had a podcast. I didn’t know the name of her book was called Let Them. Oh, interesting. No, I, cause I’m not that interested right now in personal growth books.

Todd: I’m too busy reading my Planes, Trains, and Automobiles, um, book. Trivia book. That’s so funny. That’s what I’m reading. I

Cathy: know. That’s good.

Todd: Thanks. Thanks. But I feel like Without me knowing who Mel Robbins is, without me knowing that this book is great or, or whatever, I feel like this book might be written more for, and, you know, this might require a little bit of explanation from me, the heroes.

Todd: And when I say, or rescuers. Sure. So, one of the frameworks I learned in my conscious leadership group is that when we’re below the line, which means we’re reactive or closed or defensive, We drop into one of three places in the drama triangle. Victim, villain, and hero. Victim means I’m at the effect of the [00:22:00] circumstance.

Todd: Villain means I’m pointing the finger at you or somebody else. But the hero means I’m taking much more than a hundred percent responsibility for a situation. Correct. And I feel like the, The essence of this book, without having read it, is more for the people who are taking way too much responsibility for others experiences, for others emotions, and things like that.

Cathy: Yeah, and I don’t disagree. And

Todd: that probably, sorry to interrupt, that probably is why there’s probably a lot of women reading this book, identifying with it, because they try to rescue in a way that their husbands, and I’ll say me. I’m not, like, tuned into my kids and you are overly tuned into our kids sometimes.

Cathy: Great. So that’s exactly what I was going to say, uh, was that I thought you were going to start by saying this is written for women. And that can be more so because it’s written by a woman and she’s, uh, doing a lot of her podcast interviews on primarily, uh, Female, you know, podcasts

Todd: probably because they’re not invited by the [00:23:00] guy podcast hosts, but go ahead.

Todd: Well, I

Cathy: think she’s been on a few I mean, she’s been on some of the big ones But I I think that this tends to be more of a challenge for women now why it’s not because women are more were there bigger warriors just by their biology, it’s because societally and culturally we’ve been trained to take care of people’s emotion.

Cathy: We are told that it is important for other people, you know, for us to take care of other people and make other people feel good and notice when someone’s left out and be kind to everyone and be nice. So we have been so trained to pay attention to what other people’s experiences are. Then you get into being a mother and that gets, that goes, you know.

Cathy: That takes it to the next degree. It’s like that times a hundred. Correct. And so we definitely have to be more conscious of when we are getting too involved in other people’s business, because that can be a, and again, getting involved in other people’s business. I want to like, You know, [00:24:00] get into the messiness of that.

Cathy: Some people literally get too involved where they start to, um, make phone calls to the teacher for their kid or their kid is going to a dance and the parents plan the whole thing and figure out, they, you know, make a big balloon arch for the house and so everybody can come over and the kids aren’t even doing anything.

Cathy: The parents are doing it all. You know what I mean? Sure. There is this like getting involved in a way or where they’re calling all the other kids parents and saying, what is your kid wearing? And you know, like there’s this like hyper focus on making sure that our kids are having a certain experience. So that’s a literal getting invested.

Cathy: And then there’s the emotional getting invested where maybe we aren’t, we don’t have our hands in it literally, but our hearts are very in it where we’re very worried. We’re thinking a lot about it. We’re asking a lot of questions. We’re sitting up at night worrying about our kids. And so The let them piece is the physical and the emotional, you know, maybe be less involved in worry.

Cathy: Because the story she [00:25:00] tells at the beginning of the book and the story she’s been sharing in the podcast is that she came up with this or had this epiphany when she was realizing that one of her kids was leaving for college and there was a dance or something he was going to and she was getting, she was like, you know, being like, okay, now we need to put on the corsage and now we need to do this.

Cathy: And now you need to get to the restaurant, you know, like she was becoming overbearing. And one of her daughters looked at her and said, mom, just let them do what they’re going to do. Right. So, you know, the light bulb went off and she realized that her own discomfort with her child leaving soon was causing her to be.

Cathy: Ultra focused on what he was doing. So, you know, we can, there’s a self awareness piece in here, too, which is the nuance of let them is. I think letting them is a step or a stage, but there’s all sorts of other things we have to pay attention to. You know, like one of the examples she gives that I will challenge a little bit because I struggled with it.

Cathy: I think I told you about it. She was talking about her [00:26:00] parents, um, and how they live, you know, Uh, in the Midwest still, she’s from Michigan and she lives on the East Coast and she was saying, you know, my parents, uh, you know, they want to see me during the holidays, but I’m not going to travel to the cold weather and they don’t want to travel at a busy travel time.

Cathy: to, you know, the East Coast, so we don’t see each other, and they get sad. And she’s like, let them be sad. Let them. Now, I agree with her concept, which is that let’s not carry the weight of what everybody else is feeling. You know, if they made that choice, and we made that choice, let’s just sit with the fact that we made this choice.

Cathy: My big but is, for me, And again, this is just for me. I’m not saying everyone should do this. I would probably figure something out.

Todd: Yeah, is there a win for all?

Cathy: Exactly. Is there some kind of in between? Can we see, you know, like, I think sometimes, again, for those who, you know, who have challenging families, who are, they’re feeling like they’re always catering to, maybe her [00:27:00] version is necessary.

Todd: Well, this is, like, just like everything else. anything, any teaching, any, and this isn’t new, um, you know, let them remind, it makes me think of Buddhists, right? And I’m sure people talk That’s

Cathy: what I mean. This is kind of old, recycled.

Todd: And I’m sure people taught the Buddhists from like ancient civilizations, from before Buddha, yeah, all that.

Todd: But I, there’s, there’s, there’s truth and helpfulness in this teaching. And there’s all, it can be so easily, you know, Manipulated, weaponized, to, uh,

Cathy: Simplified.

Todd: Yeah, oversimplification, and I love oversimplification. Like, just give me a word to focus on, like, cause, that’s like an interesting mantra. Like, maybe my mantra for 2025 is let them, and, and let me explore the ways in which I should be letting somebody have their own experience.

Todd: And then there’s other times like, no, no, this, this is going to require some work for me. Um, so it’s just a, it’s just an interesting thing, but yeah, kind of to your point, like this parent [00:28:00] holiday thing. Yeah. Can, instead of me saying, well, I’m just going to let them have their sadness and I’m going to stay over here.

Todd: That. That doesn’t feel good in my body. So how do we figure this out together to where we can get our, our needs met? And sometimes they can’t, maybe they already did that. And maybe

Cathy: it’s maybe because their parents don’t want to travel during the holidays. Maybe what you say is okay, once the holidays are over, Let’s then travel to see each other.

Cathy: Like there’s a million different ways to solve this problem. I think that’s why, uh, you know, for those of you who are reading this book or, or taking this book, a big piece that you have to bring into the book with you is your own self awareness. You have to bring in what feels right to you. Because I listen to every, you know, as I was saying, every book that comes out I read or, you know, I listened to the.

Cathy: The podcast interviews and, and I can feel in my own body, Oh yeah, that’s going to feel good for me. Ooh, that’s not going to work for me. And that doesn’t mean they’re wrong or the [00:29:00] book is wrong. It means you’ve got to take it through your own system. Don’t take things. The reason self help got a bad name in the first place, and it’s come and gone many times, is because people take it too literally.

Cathy: You know, it’s like, it’s funny, I listened to one of our shows, I can’t remember, but I was mentioning the book, The Secret, and I was talking about vision boards, and we got distracted and I didn’t get to finish what I was saying, because I said, yeah, people make vision boards and they put a car on it, and then they’re like, oh, maybe I’ll get that car.

Cathy: And then we got sidetracked, and what, and what I was trying to say was, that’s not why I make vision boards. Right. You know, people got way too literal about vision boards. They got way too literal about a lot of concepts that were being brought to them through self help. And they lost their own self identification.

Cathy: And you, you know, I’m going to bring up my own book. In Restoring Our Girls, I feel like that’s the mix in the book is you really do need to let them be who they are, let them become who they are. And you also have to [00:30:00] check in with yourself about why things aren’t Going well between you and your daughter.

Todd: Well, and I’m sure if I read this book, she would probably say something in effect of all this requires investigation. Correct. So can I, can you imagine if I’m like, Oh, I’m going to read this book or I’m going to go buy this book and just, I’m going to let you be mad every time you’re mad at me. Yes. And I’m not going to try to do anything to repair or figure out or reconnect.

Todd: Brutal. Like what an awful. system for being in relationship. So, uh, yeah, that’s, you know, and I’m sure she says that like this all requires investigation. She

Cathy: does. And a lot of the people that I am talking to right now are the people who are listening to the podcast interview and the clips and the TikToks.

Cathy: Yeah. The 10

Todd: second clips. Right. And

Cathy: so they’re getting this concept without all the nuance. That’s why we’re having this conversation. And I, and again, it’s just, It’s not just about Mel Robbins book. It’s about anything that becomes like, this is the way I’m going to be. You know, like even things that are habits, like even if we go into, you know, [00:31:00] best selling book of the last however many years, Atomic Habits.

Cathy: Atomic Habits is great and I love the way that there’s, I still use it in part of my life.

Sure.

Cathy: But I also believe that, you know, Sometimes you need to set something aside. And he actually, James Clear talks about this, but sometimes you need to not do certain things because you need a day off. And sometimes if you forget to do something, maybe you weren’t supposed to do it that day.

Cathy: That there is a lot of, we get very binary about, I’m either in or I’m out because we fear, We’re like, I don’t, I’m, you know, it’s, it’s kind of like this whole idea is if we have a really big meal and we’re really full and we’re like, Oh my God, I totally overate. Well, I might as well order a pizza tonight.

Cathy: Like we take it to the extreme, you know, instead of just being like,

Todd: The minute we see anything is black and white, um, it’s gray or clean or dirty. It’s messy. Like they’re the middle, like, I don’t know if there’s anything that’s not nuanced.

Cathy: Correct. And often. You know, [00:32:00] paradoxical that often something that in again paradox, meaning something is opposite is true.

Cathy: You know, sometimes we need to, you know, when we’re talking with our girls, we need to pay really close attention and then Sometimes in the same conversation, we need to completely let go. And people are like, well, how do I do those two things at once? Right. It’s both. Sometimes you have to let go of your fears and your worries and your, your belief that, you know, what’s best for your kid and not be so hyper focused.

Cathy: And sometimes you really need to focus, um, to make sure you hear and understand what they’re saying. It’s. Nothing is perfectly clean, and, and that I love, you know, as I’ve said before, I wanted to name Restoring Our Girls something about messy conversations, but I realized how hard I was going to have to work to make sure people understood.

Cathy: Explain what that means. Yeah, because messy does, I mean, when you hear the word, what do you see? It feels negative. Messy, uh,

Todd: I think a pig pen from, uh, [00:33:00] Peanuts. Charlie Brown.

Cathy: And I, I, uh, think of Oscar.

Todd: Who’s my favorite character, by the way. I know you’re kind of like him. Oscar, yeah. Oscar the Grouch. Oscar, I mean, I’m on a trash can.

Todd: It’s kind of a tight ship.

Cathy: When he comes out, he has a banana peel on his head. Oh,

Todd: does he?

Cathy: And he’s messy. And the other day, I follow him on all of his social apps, like Instagram and everything. I follow Oscar the Grouch. And the other day, made me laugh so hard. All he did was write no.

Todd: That’s great.

Cathy: Because like, usually he’ll write something like, Oh, you know, it’s a really dreary day today. Good. You know, he’s just being Oscar the Grouchy makes me laugh, but all he wrote was, no.

Todd: What does that mean? I just want to play a little bit.

Oh,

Todd: Grouchy! Sweet Grover. That’s

Grover. Who is kicking my can? Hi Grouchy.

And this is Grouchy. I, uh, I wanted to play a game, but everybody’s busy. Could you play a game with me? You [00:34:00] kick my can and bother me and expect me to play a game with you? I don’t play games with little gurp, furry monsters. Grouchy, would you please, would you play a game with me, please? Uh, wait a minute.

Todd: I just got an idea.

Todd: The Grouch got an idea. What did you think of the Grouch when you were a kid watching this?

Cathy: Um, you know, when I was a kid, Grover was my favorite. I think he was everybody’s favorite. Um, but, and the Grouch didn’t scare me. I just thought he was sad. I thought he was lonely because he would have moments. You know, Todd, who was my favorite?

Cathy: I’m lying.

Todd: Who?

Cathy: Snuffleupagus.

Todd: Really?

Cathy: Yes, because he, people didn’t believe that he was real.

Todd: But then, like, I think in the 90s, they brought him out and people knew that he was real, right?

Cathy: They did, but I’m talking about my childhood. Yeah,

Todd: yeah,

Cathy: right. Yeah, like, he was Big Bird’s friend, and people thought he was an invisible friend, but he was Snuffleupagus.

Cathy: And when he would be on an episode, it was such a big deal, and he was so sweet.

Yeah.

Cathy: But I loved Grover, too, because he was in all the Sesame Street books. I don’t know, I just think that [00:35:00] Oscar, I have a sweatshirt with Oscar the Grouch on it. That we hear all the time. It’s, uh, Hutch’s husband’s garbage company.

And last, you’ve seen him, and you gotta believe it, right? I told you all along that there was a Snuffleupagus, my best pal. He’s not imaginary, but you never believed me. Oh, but Maria and Linda and I believed you, Big Bird. Yeah, but the rest of you didn’t. Yeah, right. Yeah, you’re right. We didn’t, but

Todd: I, I want to watch this episode.

Todd: It’s the reveal.

Cathy: And it kind of sounds like Big Bird’s kind of pissed off.

Todd: Um, stuff like this kind of reminds me of Eeyore from, uh, Winnie the Pooh, right? He’s low energy, kind of like just sloughing around.

Cathy: Well, he’s kind of, isn’t he like, what is he? He’s like a Looks like a

Todd: brown elephant. He

Cathy: looks like a woolly mammoth.

Todd: Yeah, a little bit of that. Um, getting back to the Grouch, but think about that. Like, the [00:36:00] Grouch normalized anger for us growing up. Yeah. Which is great, because he’s Grouch is pissed most of the time.

Cathy: He is, but he kind of like, you know, they Same with Everybody’s got that character in their group of friends.

Cathy: Like you said, you know, Eeyore in Pooh and, um, what’s another group of friends in, like, Little Bear. Who’s grumpy in Little Bear? Owl? Uh, I don’t know. We used to watch Little Bear all the time. But anyway, there’s always like a character that’s a little more grouchy and everybody understands that’s just who they are.

Todd: Do you know who my, I, now this character wasn’t there when I was a little kid. I think he, I don’t know when he showed up, was Murray?

Cathy: I know we love Murray. Murray is not on anymore.

Todd: Well, this is Murray and John Hamm and they’re getting emotional.

It’s not a very good feeling. Like when you’re guilty, when you feel guilty.

You’re guilty. That’s a good one, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I’ve definitely thought of that one before. Yeah, that’s not, that’s no fun. No, no, no. How about this one? What, what is it, what does it mean to [00:37:00] feel frustrated? Ooh, frustrated, that’s another tough one. Yeah, what, what does that mean? Frustrated is the feeling you get sometimes when there’s something that you want to do or you’re really trying hard to do something or learn something.

Uh huh. But for whatever reason, you just can’t do it. Well,

Cathy: what does it look like when you’re frustrated?

Todd: I love Murray, but Murray’s a lot. He’s a lot of energy.

Cathy: He’s a lot. And, and I, and Murray could still be on. It’s not like I’m watching Sesame Street enough. You’re not? But I do follow. I follow Cookie Monster.

Cathy: I follow Oscar. And I used to follow Grover. Sweetie, why don’t

Todd: you try to follow Murray, my guy?

Cathy: I’ll see if they have them right, but you

Todd: know,

Cathy: Elmo

Todd: kind of took over. I know, and left Grover in the dust, and I’m like, what about Grover? Um, you did not watch Sesame Street last night. You watched something else.

Todd: What did you watch last night? And give me your, your quick Kathy Cassani Adams review. Oh, Interstellar? Yes.

Cathy: Uh, yeah. I watched Interstellar.

Todd: What’d you think?

Cathy: Um, [00:38:00] Uh, let’s see, what did I think? I thought it was good. I had heard people say it was long and that I would be bored, and that was not the case. Um, I struggled at certain points, definitely with understanding, like I definitely need to do a little more reading.

Cathy: I don’t think Interstellar is a one time thing. You’ve got to like watch again and do some reading, which is fun to do with Christopher Nolan movies. I like that. Um, I felt a little, I did the whole, when he’s behind the bookcase thing, I couldn’t understand what was happening. I know he was in like a fifth dimension.

Cathy: Um, yeah,

Todd: it hurts your brain a little bit to think about how exactly is this working.

Cathy: And yeah, and it made, it felt, I, I’m sorry, I just don’t want to rip out a movie that I know everybody loves. I liked it. I would give it a B plus a minus. Um, and maybe if I read more about it and watch it more times, I will end up loving it.

Cathy: I think

Todd: I want to watch

Cathy: it again. Okay. I probably, that was three hours. And I’m probably not going to do that with you. [00:39:00] Uh, you know, soon.

Todd: Because we’ve got other stuff. We got a lot. We

Cathy: got a few other things. We just started

Todd: watching Landman.

Cathy: We did, which John Ham, who was just with Murray’s right? Is on.

Cathy: That’s right. And to be more, and Billy Bob and what’s her name? Ali Lar Lauder. I don’t know. Lauder, his wife. I have to say though, Todd, I’m gonna say this because this is the Zen parenting and I have to be real. I’m noticing. six episodes in that the women are not written very well. Now, hopefully that changes.

Cathy: I’m going to give it some time, but yeah, I’m noticing that the women are kind of one dimensional. Um, but we’ll see.

Todd: Hopefully we’ll see. We’ll see. All right. Let’s bring it back. What else do you have written in your notes? So just a

Cathy: few other things as far as going back to let them, another example that’s given is like, say that you are on social media and you’re noticing that all your friends did something together or that there was a party and you weren’t invited to it.

Cathy: There [00:40:00] is an aspect of, I’m not going to get really caught up about that. Let them, right? You’re not going to like, hate everybody or, you know, be mad or send a mean text. You’re like, let them be together. At the very same time, it is a self awareness opportunity about Am I spending, am I contributing to my friendships?

Cathy: Do these people even know, this is an example she gives, do these people even know that I want to spend time with them? How am I showing up for my friends? Are these people really my friends? What kind of friendships do I want to have? Like we can simultaneously let people do things and go through a self awareness examination of like, What is this?

Cathy: You know, it’s kind of like, um, we’ve talked a lot about when we’re envious of somebody, like when we see something and you know, maybe we see a speaker and they talk about something that you and I are like, wait, we could do a better job with that. And we’re envious that they’re doing it. It kicks us into action where we’re like, okay, we know we want to go in that direction.

Cathy: Or you see someone dressing in a certain way. That’s really [00:41:00] cool to you or a way that you would like to dress and you’re envious of their clothes, but you’re like, okay, now I have a understanding of my style. You know, Envy can remind you of what you want. It doesn’t have to be a negative thing. Well, I’m realizing,

Todd: and like I said, I haven’t read the book, so I’m speaking out of turn, but I can see the oversimplification of let them, like, where’s emotions in this?

Todd: Like, Envy or jealousy or anger or sadness. Like if I just say, let them to everything, just allow everything and I bypass all of my emotions and I’m, I’m raising my hand saying, I’m, I have a lot of work to do on my emotional expression, my body intelligence, but it is something I’m aiming for and continue to cultivate as I grow older.

Todd: But if, if I’m just allowing everything, there can be an opportunity to Bypass all emotions, which are normal human beings. We have emotions, right? And then also these emotions have something to teach us after we let them [00:42:00] be expressed. And if we’re, if I’m just letting everything happen, uh, and I’m tuning out of my body and my emotional expression, that’s probably not very good.

Cathy: Yeah. It’s, we can have an oversimplification of complex situations, you know, where we make things to like, well, I’m just going to let them, and then we let go. So I think that as we’ve said before, but I’ll reiterate. That we need to recognize sometimes when we are too over involved, where we do need to let them, okay, where we’re like, okay, wait, all I’m doing is spending my time thinking about what my kids should be doing, instead of focusing on what I should be doing.

Cathy: You know, you and I just had this conversation this weekend, I feel like, I can’t remember what we were talking about, but like, Should, you know, what should we be focusing on for ourselves versus are we spending all of our time thinking about what job will my kid have and will they like their next year in college?

Cathy: Like, that’s their life.

Yeah.

Cathy: Like, and it doesn’t mean you don’t, when they want to talk about it, you are paying attention and listening and maybe you process it through your, you know, [00:43:00] they may ask for advice so you, you know, give some. You, our lives are our lives where we should be spending time thinking about what we want to do.

Todd: I wrote, I wrote a blog last week about parenting on the Men Living blog and one of the, one of my friends pushed back and they’re like, Todd, I loved your blog about, um, most of the, the ideas that you shared in that. But he’s like, I was a little surprised that you, that part where you said, you know, I’ve never, I don’t check power school and their academic career is their job and not mine.

Todd: And he’s like. I thought you’d want to be involved in your kid’s academic career. And once again, like my blog was probably an oversimplification because obviously I care if my kids do well or not do well. And at the same time, there is a balance. There’s that pendulum and some parents are way too involved in their kid’s academic career and other.

Todd: Parents are way not engaged at all. And I don’t think I brought the nuance to it. So

Cathy: this is so funny. This is very meta. This says layers and layers. You had me read [00:44:00] that blog and there were sentences that you wrote and maybe you ran it through AI for grammar and it just simplified it, but I wanted to change it.

Cathy: I know exactly this sentence. You said, I don’t, I’ve never looked at power school. I think I even changed the word cause I’m like, yes, you have. You’ve gone in there not to look at their grades, but you’ve gone in there to do parent teacher conferences or when the girls are like, look at my report card and you can go in there.

Cathy: So first of all, I knew that wasn’t true. And next I, you were being too. absolutist about it. Because the truth is we talk to the girls about their grades all the time, but they’re sharing with us their experience and we’re listening. So you aren’t uninvolved. So this is another let them where I was reading that this day you sent that to me to read, I was very busy and I had a kind of a let them moment like, let Todd put this out there.

Cathy: Like, this is what he wrote. So I know, I didn’t know you’d get pushback, but I don’t think what you’re saying is exactly. What you are doing? Well,

Todd: I’m trying to do it in 500 [00:45:00] words or less too. Correct. So it’s not like I can explain everything.

Cathy: Exactly. You were not nuanced at all. No. You were like, I don’t get involved, and that’s completely not true.

Cathy: Yeah. So the friend who’s like, I can’t believe you’re not involved, he doesn’t see that every day. We’re like, you know, well that’s, we’re not really talking about grades every day, but the girls tell us about their grades. They tell us about their teachers. They tell us about their classes.

Todd: Well, I actually think I modified the blog a little bit after seeing it, and I think I gave it nuance.

Todd: even though it was beyond the word count that I was supposed to be falling under, but it was something to the effect of, you know, I’m focusing more on homework than test scores, or I’m more interested in the process versus the outcome.

Cathy: Yeah, you may have written that.

Todd: And

Cathy: that’s true. And, and again, you know, There are so many things to question.

Cathy: I really, you know, when it comes to something like, we’ll just focus on school for a second. There are parents who have been told or taught or trained by teachers, by experiences they’ve had, by a neighbor down the street, by, you [00:46:00] know, that they need to be really involved or their kids will, will not do well.

Cathy: And they have been sometimes given poor information as far as the, you know, the belief that their kids, want to do well. Like, there’s this strange belief with teenagers that we’re like, if we’re not involved, they will create all sorts of problems, fail, and never make it in life. And we’re forgetting human behavior, which is all human beings want to do well.

Cathy: When they’re not doing well, that’s when we, and I don’t mean not getting an A, I mean like they’re really just not doing well. There’s some, that’s when we start to get to the core of, What are their belief systems? What are they worried about? What kind of anxiety are they feeling? Are we bringing some of that anxiety to them?

Cathy: Is this an experience they had? Is this trauma? Like, this is when we start to investigate. But, for the most part, our kids, the whole idea of school is is an experience of ebb and flow and [00:47:00] learning that they shouldn’t, it’s not a linear path of like straight A’s all the time. And nor do they need that. You know, like I now have two kids in college and plenty of kids that I know who are in college and have graduated and everything.

Cathy: And you know, kids who have been like B and C students have got their four year degrees and now have amazing jobs. Like we’re way too focused. And then there are some kids who were straight A students and were in the top 10 of their class and they came home. Like, there isn’t a pathway that is so secure that your kid will never fall off it.

Todd: That’s not the way it works.

Cathy: You know, I, I wrote something down the other day about we need to quit trying to change standards and how much reading time and how much science in the school and focus more on our kids emotional wellbeing. Now, that’s not a new thing. I’ve been saying this my whole life as a teacher, but we get so focused on these external things.

Cathy: The test score, does my kid have

Todd: a tutor? That’s the control versus no control. It’s funny. Like, um, [00:48:00] so, uh, In my coaching framework, I sometimes have, you know, my guys, they, they get lost and they worry about the wrong things. Yes. So I have them do this exercise called sort the files. And on the right side are things that you have no control over.

Todd: And on the left side are things you have control over. So here’s some of the things that we really don’t have control over. I don’t have control over my thoughts, but I have the control to investigate my thoughts. How much you believe them. I don’t have control over my feelings, but I can kind of decide how to express them in a healthy way.

Todd: Mm hmm. I don’t have control over your emotions, your beliefs, your statements, your words, but I have control over what comes out of my mouth, right? Correct. Um, I don’t have control how somebody else takes care of themselves, but I have control over how I take care of myself. But we spend way too much time on the wrong side of that ledger.

Todd: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I think.

Cathy: Yeah. And you know, the third one that you said, [00:49:00] like, you don’t have control over my thoughts and feelings. True. But if we are in a relationship and you can’t be this person to everybody, I’m just saying that this is a marriage or being a parent, we can pay attention to if our family members having a lot of feelings, how can I support you?

Cathy: You know, you and I were just talking at brunch this weekend about a couple, um, that we had worked with and it was a lot about this, this woman, what is really struggling and her partner is like, I just don’t know what I’m doing wrong. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. And, you know, obviously things are easier said than done.

Cathy: And I, there, he had, he may have done some of the things that I have recommended. But it’s like asking her instead of like being worried about the feelings she’s having, or am I causing these feelings and being defensive about it, it’s how do I show you that I love you? How do I support you? Because that’s when you can actually have a separation between all the feelings [00:50:00] she’s having.

Cathy: They’re not necessarily about me, and they’re not because of me. She’s just having Lots of feelings. She might be going through a midlife crisis. She might be struggling with something with parenting. And how do we support? So I’m, I’m adding a lot of, like when you said, you know, cause yours was a little more let them, like, I can’t control the way you’re feeling.

Cathy: I can only control the way I’m feeling. True. You can’t control, but you can make decisions. About how to love someone. Well,

Todd: you can practice empathy, which means validating their experience without may or may, may, maybe you agree with it, or maybe you don’t, but you can always validate somebody’s feelings without necessarily agreeing with how they got there or what they’re upset about, but you can be warm towards them.

Cathy: Right.

Todd: Even if it makes no sense to you.

Cathy: And I think we believe that everybody’s feelings around us have something to do with us. Oh yeah,

Todd: we personalize everything.

Cathy: We do. And so like our kids are grumpy and we’re like, Oh, I can’t believe they’d be grumpy today. Like I wanted to spend time talking to them and they didn’t want [00:51:00] to.

Cathy: And they’re this, and we, we personalize.

Todd: Time to go Ruiz, right?

Cathy: We get offended. One of the four

Todd: agreements is don’t take things personally. That’s

Cathy: right.

Todd: And I can only speak for myself. I have a tendency to, if you’re upset. I feel like it’s something I did wrong.

Cathy: And, and, and while some people may say, but that’s so loving, he’s thinking about himself, that keeps him from coming to me because he’s offended and defensive that I’m having a feeling.

Cathy: And he’s like, you, you know, I’m making this up. Yeah. You’re not noticing all the good things I’m doing. You’re noticing this and I can’t believe it. Why are you upset? Things are so good. Why is this bothering you? So instead of him being empathetic to me, he’s defensive about the way I’m

Todd: feeling. My initial go to is more is defensiveness first.

Cathy: So, and we do this with our kids too, right? Like my daughter’s, you know, something that I think everybody probably has this experience. If you’re, if you’re in conversation with your kids, they tend to bring home to you. The most [00:52:00] challenging aspects of their lives and days, if you are close to them, right?

Cathy: Some kids are very much like, fine, okay, good. And they don’t tell you anything. I get that. But if you have a relationship with your kids, especially teenagers, they often will come home and be like, Oh, this person didn’t talk to me. This person didn’t do this. And. I have to always remind myself that they are bringing me the worst of the worst.

Cathy: They’re bringing me Oscar’s garbage can, you know what I mean? Because they need to release that, that, that is part of what they experienced. That’s not all of what they experienced. That was a piece of it. And they also had good moments in there that we didn’t see, but they just need a safe place to expel the garbage.

Cathy: Yeah.

Todd: Yeah. Get rid of it. All right. Let’s clue shot. Okay. Anything, any parting words?

Cathy: I think just, um, you know, it’s interesting because if, if I am right and self help is making a big comeback, which, you know, I don’t think it ever went away, but I think it has big cycles. If we are going [00:53:00] to go down that path again of personal growth and hey, Maybe it’s a good time to do it, because, you know, we’ve been focusing on, like, politically and everything.

Cathy: We’re trying to get more personal minded and community minded and leadership in a, in a smaller way. Um, maybe we need a little personal growth in this process. You know, I don’t, but if we are going to go down that route of reading self help and kind of taking in these new ideas, we just need to remember to take our own self into consideration, that it’s not simplified, like, You just gave a perfect example of something that people can oversimplify.

Cathy: Don Miguel’s, uh, you know, Four Agreements, one of them is don’t, you know, don’t take things personally. That is such a nuanced,

you

Cathy: know, and, and he, and his book is so great because you can rip all these things apart and kind of figure it out. Because of course, some things you’re going to take personally, someone looks you in the eye and says something mean, you’re going to feel bad.

Cathy: But his point is That’s about them, not you. If they’re coming at you, it’s because what’s going on inside of them. [00:54:00] Point taken, but we can still have an opinion and feelings about it, right? Just, I think I’m just trying to say, don’t forget your own sense of self, run things through your own, um, what’s the word I’m looking for?

Cathy: Your own consciousness?

Todd: Look in the mirror. Yeah. Um, investigate, inquire, your own reactivity. Your own intuition. Yeah. Uh, trust yourself. I mean, we can go on and on.

Cathy: Yeah. I mean, and that’s a big part. There’s a whole chapter in Restoring Our Girls about cults and high control groups and how, you know, self help can, if it goes off the rails can become pretty culty.

Cathy: Okay. And we have to really pay attention, you know, to, are we losing ourselves to a mission and an idea, or are we learning more about ourselves and becoming even more of ourselves and not becoming part of a, you know, where we can say, Oh, I’m this, you know, where we start to identify with an idea. So, you know, in the end, let them is great.

Cathy: As [00:55:00] long as you have an understanding of when it’s helpful and when it’s too much. And, That’s it. We’ll leave it to you.

Todd: Uh, ZenCon 25 a week from Friday. And then don’t forget our wonderful partner since day one, Jeremy Kraft. If you live in the Chicago area and you got some home improvement projects around, uh, give them a call 630 956 1800.

Todd: Tell them Kathy and Todd sent ya. Uh, keep trucking.

Round two. Change a little bit. And change a little bit. Pretty pleasant.