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Todd: Here we go. My name is Todd. And this is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is episode number 793. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding. And always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s well being is a parent’s self understanding.
Todd: On today’s show, we’re going to talk about Nighttime discussions. We’re going to talk about leading.
Cathy: Well, let’s say that differently. Yeah,
Todd: let’s, let’s say it differently. That’s because that,
Cathy: that doesn’t mean anything to anybody. No, it doesn’t mean anything. When your teen or child wants to talk to you at night.
Cathy: So, if you find that the discussions that you were waiting for in the car or at dinner show up right before bedtime.
Todd: Yes. That’s what we’re talking about. Not really [00:01:00] helpful, kids, because mom and dad are tired.
Cathy: Not ideal, but that’s the way it is.
Todd: Um, and then we’re going to talk about one week from today, sweetie.
Todd: I know, Is the big day. Uh, Cathy’s book. Fifth book? I think it’s fifth book. One, two, three. 3, 4, 5, yeah. Fifth book, uh, Restoring Our Girls, how real conversations shape our daughter’s lives, help them with teen challenges, and remind them that they matter.
Cathy: Yes. It’s
Todd: been a long time coming. You’ve been typing away on that keyboard for two or three years.
Cathy: So December 10th, Tuesday, December 10th is when it comes out.
Todd: Um, and we are going to do a workshop on December 16th and we’ll talk a little bit about that and as we move on with the show. Does that sound good?
Cathy: Well, why don’t we talk about it now? Let’s
Todd: do it now.
Cathy: Okay. So on December 16th, it’s a Monday, so it’s actually two weeks from yesterday.
Cathy: Um, we are going to do a free workshop for those who have bought the book. So [00:02:00] um, yeah. Hopefully, if you have not bought Restoring Our Girls and you know you’re going to, do it now as a pre order. Um, it helps the whole process and then you know it’ll get there on December 10th, or hopefully if all mail goes well.
Cathy: And so you can just be done with it. Um, but anybody who buys the book before December 16th, buy it now. You can register for this workshop for free and it’s going to be a discussion about how to have conversations with your girls. So if you’ve already bought the book and then you’ve read some of it, then you can come and bring questions.
Cathy: If you just got the book and you don’t have questions yet, but you just want me to kind of give you the. The best parts and the overview and you know, I want it to be more of a Q& A than a lecture and Todd will be here too. What if you don’t buy the book? Well, it’s for people who buy the book. I mean, if you don’t buy the book, I mean, that’s why I’m doing it for free.
Cathy: Because if you bought the book, then here’s a free workshop, right? So it’s kind of, it’s a trade off of energy. So that’s the kind of, that’s the way I’m doing [00:03:00] it. But it’ll, it’ll be good. And I, I want to. I want to dig into this book because there’s, you know, what I wrote about and then there’s your real life experiences.
Cathy: I like when people say, but what about this? Or they push back on this. Or they tell me their own story because it, I still think what I’m talking about here applies, but it also helps me, um, look through many different lenses. It helps me see other people’s stories and perspectives. So, and I think if you come to a workshop like this where Q& A is completely welcome and, and, you know, Um, if you’re asking a question, somebody else listening has the same question, I guarantee you.
Cathy: Or they’re getting something. Cause this is what Todd and I do. We have this virtual community called Team Zen. If you listen, you may know about it. And that’s basically what we do on Team Zen is every month or sometimes twice a month we do a Q& A call. People ask questions and I always get messages after where someone says, Oh, that question they asked really helped me.
Cathy: So. But this will be specifically [00:04:00] about the book. So, registration is free. If you scroll down, um, below, you will see where you can register. It’ll be in
Todd: the show notes, right at the top of the show notes.
Cathy: And it will also be on our social media. It’ll be on our website. It will be everywhere.
Todd: So just, uh, do that.
Todd: And we’ll talk a little bit about the conference maybe at the end of the show, but January 24th, 25th, our last in person conference. Yes. Uh, more details to follow, but it’s, uh, registration is open, so hopefully you join us for that.
Cathy: And if you’re, have any issue with financial because you’re flying in for it or whatever, just email us and we have scholarship and, um, other options.
Cathy: We
Todd: can definitely help you out. Um, so you do the Zen Parenting moment. Mm hmm. And the one that you just did, uh, was called Something Has Changed Within Me. You could sing that better. Something has changed within me. I don’t think I can do it quite. So I’m going to scatter a few clips from the movie Wicked into the show.
Todd: And this is just 19 seconds. Well,
Cathy: hold on. Some [00:05:00] people may not know that’s from Wicked. So
Todd: you’re
Cathy: just jumping in with your knowledge. But if you didn’t see Wicked this weekend or last weekend, um, That verbiage, something has changed within me, is from the song Defying Gravity, and the whole idea of Wicked, which, well, I mean, there’s so many, so many layers, but the, what I wrote about is how we so easily get conditioned about who we are and what we can do.
Cathy: and how, as I spoke specifically for women, but women and girls, how we have all of these little wake ups like, you know, like, Oh, wait a second. I can see the world more clearly now. And what I think about, even though obviously Wicked is an extraordinary version of it. Um, I don’t know because people haven’t seen it.
Cathy: I didn’t want to give anything away.
Todd: I’m just going to play a few clips from the trailer, so it won’t really ruin anything. So, uh, here we go. [00:06:00]
I know about popular Oh, I saved you some space, by the way. Do you really think this is fair? I do not. I was promised a private suite. But thanks for asking.
Todd: All right. So that’s just the very first little clip I’m going to play. I’m going to play three or four on this show, in this podcast. Uh, and the reason I want to play is because it makes my sweetie happy. It does. A powerful movie. I’m not a musical type guy. Um, Because I get frustrated because I can’t understand the words when they’re singing.
Cathy: Well, let’s just say this first. So the, I, I saw it like 20 years ago and then took my girls three times. And then the final time we went to see Wicked Broadway musical, I mean, Broadway in Chicago, we told Todd he had to come with us cause he hadn’t seen it. He didn’t, we sing the song. I mean, it’s not like we’re singing the songs all the time.
Cathy: Now we are, cause the movie just came out, but we had this like knowledge about Wicked that Todd [00:07:00] had no idea what we were talking about. So Todd finally came with us. What’d you think about the Broadway production? Did you like that? It was
Todd: powerful.
Cathy: Okay, so then, then now go on with the movie. Even more powerful.
Cathy: Yes.
Todd: Longer, right? Because the, the in person musical is what, three hours long with an intermission? Yes, pretty much. And the first half of this, of Wicked, is two and a half hours long. Right. And it sounds like, you know, in any other movie, I’m doing a little bit of, uh, this. Yes. But I did none of that.
Cathy: Well, I feel like, didn’t both you and your sister say, the second time we saw it?
Cathy: Second
Todd: time.
Cathy: Because we went to see the movie twice, of course. And I feel like both of you were like, yeah, we napped at the beginning. I dozed
Todd: off in the beginning. And that’s not my fault. It’s the food.
Cathy: I do not understand. I was in
Todd: food coma too.
Cathy: Dozing in that movie. Not just because like, oh, you don’t get it.
Cathy: It’s just so bright and loud and powerful.
Todd: I can, I can. Sleep in any [00:08:00] of many different environments. Um, the reason I love your sub stack sweetie is because there’s a picture of you dressed up as Dorothy
Cathy: and the only way
Todd: you could see it is if you subscribe to Cathy’s sub stack, cause it’s awesome.
Cathy: Yeah.
Cathy: So sub stack is Zen parenting moment, just for anyone who’s confused. It’s just, that’s the name of my sub stack, but yeah, there’s a picture of me because I write about the fact that, uh, I was Dorothy many, many years in a row. So. If you listen to the show, you know my favorite movie is The Wizard of Oz, so it’s no shock that Wicked is important to me.
Cathy: Um, I wrote about Like, again, conditioning comes in many, many forms, but because I was trying to connect it to Wicked, I wrote about the fact that Todd, some boys in my class made fun of me. They did. Because I dressed up as Dorothy for the third or fourth time. I couldn’t remember if it was the third or fourth, so I just put third.
Cathy: But they said, so this is what we would do in my class. The teacher would say, Mrs. Kan [00:09:00] said, okay, everybody get in a circle. And when you go in the circle, we’re all going to yell what you are. Okay. So, you know, Mike is like, Oh, I’m going to go in the circle. And everyone’s like, Mike’s a pirate. And everyone’s like, yeah.
Cathy: And all the guys were like, yeah, yeah. But all the guys were like thinking he was so cool. You know, guys stand up and they like cheer for each other. And then, um, who was next after Mike? Uh, Paul got up and he got into the, and I really know these guys, right? Like these are not, this is like a real story. I grew up with these guys.
Cathy: So Paul gets in the middle and he’s, I think a fireman and everyone’s like, yeah, yeah. So, and they’re like, yeah, was it a fireman? I can’t remember what I, but anyway, so it’s my turn, Cathy Cassani. See, so I went next and my friend. Said, Dorothy, one girl, and then the boys go, again, hurt [00:10:00] my feelings. There’s a
man that I heard a bunch in a lullaby.
Cathy: Don’t they understand? What?
Todd: Over the rainbow. Um, wonderful, wonderful sub stack, sweetie. Loved it. Loved it.
Cathy: Thank you. So, yeah. So the bottom line is the conditioning was, cause I didn’t finish that part, Todd. Todd’s moving on. No, but I didn’t really finish. Sometimes he’s in, sometimes we like have already talked about these things.
Cathy: So we don’t realize how we’re presenting it.
Todd: No, I have no idea. How I know Todd’s
Cathy: like just doing thing to think. So what I decided. As I was coming home from school that day, cause I was kind of embarrassed. I mean, I knew these guys and it wasn’t like the end of the world, but I was like, God, I think I made a mistake.
Cathy: I don’t think I’m going to be Dorothy anymore. I think next year I’ll be a pirate. So the conditioning obviously is do what others do and conform. [00:11:00] And, and then you have these moments and this gets bigger as we become adults. And that’s really what Wicked is about is those who conform. And those who speak out.
Cathy: And I think it’s really timely as far as the world goes. And I think that, um, you know, it’s macro and micro, like there’s the macro part of it. And then the micro is just for those of you, women and men who have felt like you’ve conformed, um, to stay safe. You know, it’s all you knew, but then you have these
Todd: awakenings.
Todd: It’s
Cathy: like a tribal survival thing. It is. And when you have an opportunity to make a choice, like, that if you choose yourself, your young self, your older self, your future self, it’s pretty amazing. So, you know.
Todd: Some of us don’t even know what, uh, what that means. To
Cathy: choose our self.
Todd: I
Cathy: know.
Todd: Because we’re so used to fitting in.
Cathy: Right. And we think there is a way. The fact that people think there is a way to do things, which is what we were going to talk about before on this show. I don’t know if we’ll get to it, but that how many ways there [00:12:00] are. And that everybody has their own internal compass about what they should do to make the world a better place.
Cathy: And, and it may look like a career, or it may look like their personality. It just is a simple thing. Depending on who they are, but our goal as individuals is to allow ourselves to hear that part of ourselves and our goal, as parents, is to allow our children to tell us who they are. So, it’s pretty big. So, Wicked’s pretty intense, everybody.
Cathy: I cried
Todd: a
Cathy: lot, and I always do, at the Broadway musical. I just, it’s just, yes, that was me at the end. And through the whole thing.
Todd: Sweetie, you talked about doing it, uh, conforming versus doing it ourselves. Yeah. Doing it our way.
Much more than I did in
Todd: my way. Remember Frank wrote that song? Yet
there were times.
Todd: There were [00:13:00] times.
I guess you knew. I guess you knew. When I bit off more than I could chew.
when there was doubt.
Todd: When you hear this song, or Frank in general, do you think of any memory or person?
Cathy: I, I think about your mom? I think about, um, a few funerals I’ve been to. Oh, really? Where this song has been played. That’s
Todd: a good one. I mean, it’s such a killer song. It’s the last song we played at our wedding. Was it? Yeah.
Todd: It doesn’t surprise me. We made our playlist. Sweetie didn’t, Sweetie didn’t want to give the DJ any, any freedom. So we just burned, burned the CDs. It’s
Cathy: just a lot of YMCA and stuff. And let’s just, I don’t want to dig into it because it’s a wound, but the music wasn’t loud enough at our wedding. No, it was not.
Cathy: Just like, we can trace this back to Wicked. When we first, the first [00:14:00] night Wicked came out and we went to see it, We were in a Dolby theater. So the whole, it was surround sound. So it was everywhere. And then our seats would move.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: When vibrate, vibrate when things on the screen moved. So we were like in the movie, the second time we saw it, we started a more traditional theater and it wasn’t, it was still great, but it was not the same, like you need to have that music.
Cathy: And so at my wedding, I was like, it’s gotta be loud. I wanted to be in a Dolby theater. So you
Todd: wanted some of this?
Cathy: I didn’t, I didn’t.
Todd: I hope they get paid every time the song gets played.
Cathy: I fear that they’ve lost the rights or something because everybody uses it, including campaigns that they probably shouldn’t be using.
Cathy: You got a
Todd: guy in a Native American gear, probably not a lot of, I don’t know if the village people would
Cathy: Hang tough these days? Yeah,
Todd: I’m not quite sure.
Cathy: Well, you know, the YMCA, we support it because we’re allies because, you know I just
Todd: don’t know about Native Americans in headdresses.
Cathy: Well maybe he is.
Todd: Yeah, I guess that’s true. [00:15:00]
Cathy: Yeah, we don’t know.
Todd: We can do a little research and find out. The internet knows a lot of things. Interwebs? Um, okay, are we ready to talk about? We sure are. So I first want to just, because Cathy’s book comes out a week from today, um, we’re going to, you know, briefly, maybe, Share a few things of a section called lead, LEAD.
Todd: So how to lead, right? Mm-Hmm. . And the way Cathy’s book is set up, and I go through old thing chapter one, why our Girls Need Real Conversations, chapter two, why we’re afraid of it. And then chapter three, you have like eight or nine different kind of topics for a guide for real conversations. So it’s just a
Cathy: blueprint about
Todd: how
Cathy: to have, yeah, it’s a
Todd: conversation show, it’s blueprint.
Todd: So this one is about leading. And I can start if you want, or if you want to start, sweetie, that’s cool too.
Cathy: Well, let me start with this, and then you go into it. I would say that the whole idea of leading is because we kind of, again, there’s like many layers to this book, because when we think lead, we, We get a visual of what [00:16:00] that means.
Cathy: Like, well, then I’m in charge and they follow me and I’m a leader. Um, but there’s many levels to that. Cause sometimes leading is allowing your children to lead and it’s allowing them to step up, holding space, holding space for them. It also. Is as a parent recognizing that if there is a disconnection with your kids, that it’s you who takes the initiative to make the connection.
Todd: Instead of waiting patiently for them to make a move because odds are their kids, they’re probably not going to make a move.
Cathy: And being angry at them for being more disconnected or being with their friends more or you’re getting angry about normal things. experiences that teenagers or young adults have instead of actually figuring out a new way to connect as they grow.
Cathy: So leading means many different things. So this section, um, which is called, I think I called it in the book, emotional release.
Todd: Uh, yep. Emotional release. Or you all, there’s another term you had that I just read, but we’ll get to that.
Cathy: So this is the part [00:17:00] about when our kids come to us late at night,
Todd: Yes.
Todd: And what I like about this part is because it has some, I don’t know, hacks, I guess, or tricks or techniques that you can do. And the first one is what you said is, our kids have a knack for knowing when we are At our most weakened state.
Cathy: See, and I’m going to question
Todd: you on that. Okay, let’s
Cathy: question it.
Cathy: I’m going to question you. I don’t think they are coming to us because we’re at a weakened state. That’s the misnomer. I
Todd: think it’s a byproduct. I don’t think they’re saying, Oh, mom’s hired so I’m going to come talk to her. But it is. unfortunate that she’s not coming to me when I got my dad chops on and instead I’m getting ready for bed or I’m worried about a presentation for work the next day or whatever.
Cathy: Correct. And so I, I totally agree with you that it’s not the ideal time for us as adults, but I think the misconception, the myth that I’m trying to bust here is that they’re doing that on purpose because you’re weak or because they’re trying to hurt you. And
Todd: I [00:18:00] didn’t mean to indicate that. It’s just unfortunate that they do it when our chips are down.
Todd: Correct. Um, so the first thing I want to bring up is, and I think we brought this up on the show, but I think it’s a really important piece. You say in the book, page 105, when my oldest daughter was young, she told me that telling me things was difficult because she didn’t want to see my eyes change. What did she mean?
Cathy: Because she, um, I’ve told this story a lot, she just didn’t want to see any disappointment on my face. And so, even if I said, but I’m not disappointed, I don’t know what you’re talking about, she saw something. And, and you know, again, kids are really energetic, meaning, I don’t mean energetic like they want to move around, I mean, they, they feel energy.
Cathy: It’s like, I had a bunch of experiences this week where I had to choose whether to trust my intuition or what I was seeing. And. And again, there’s ideally, there’s a mix of both. It’s not that you disregard one or the other, but kids are really [00:19:00] tapped into feeling and what they’re getting from you. It’s not the words they’re getting from you.
Cathy: It’s like, I’m feeling, so I could sit there and say, I’m not disappointed. Look at my eyes. They’re the same, but she’s feeling my disappointment. Even if I’m trying to not be. Okay. So I think the thing to, to disregard what our kids are saying, I don’t think we’d go so far as to say gaslight, you know, that’s too extreme, but to say if they’re like, well, you seem disappointed.
Cathy: We’re like, no, we’re not. No, we’re not. Instead, if she’s like, you know, I struggle telling you this because I can see your eyes and they look sad. I say, you know, gaslight. I say, I, I’m actually okay, but I understand that’s what you’re feeling. I can validate without agree. Right, exactly.
Todd: Um, so what did she end up doing instead of telling you heavy stuff?
Cathy: Oh, so then she just started writing to me instead. So she started writing in a notebook, um, to me and, uh, We just did that for a long time. Like where she would, instead of having to look at me and tell me something difficult, she would write it in a notebook [00:20:00] and just throw it on our bed and then I’d write back to her and then usually by the second or third time of writing we could talk about it because all of the heavy energetic things were already out.
Cathy: And, you know, we don’t really do that anymore because she’s older, but she does write letters a lot to, to her friends, to us, like writing for her is a safer, less overwhelming way to share her feelings.
Todd: Totally. Yeah. And it’s a very sweet, you know, cause you say in the book that I still get like a birthday card from her.
Todd: Yeah. She writes me a
Cathy: letter for Mother’s Day and stuff.
Todd: And I don’t know, maybe Cameron and Skylar do too, but words are JC’s vehicle of connection. And it’s always so sweet when I get that because I’m not much of a letter writer. I don’t know if you noticed that over our 22 years of marriage, sweetie. I
Cathy: have noticed.
Cathy: Not a lot
Todd: of love letters coming from me to you.
Cathy: No.
Todd: Um, so when JC. Write something. It’s just very, very sweet.
Cathy: Well, and it’s just very honest, you know, it’s very like, this is how I feel. And, you [00:21:00] know, and that can be hard for people to do even in writing. I think why I want to share that story is it’s one of those opportunities to be creative is instead of being like, I want you to sit across the table from me and talk to me about your feelings.
Cathy: That’s really hard. Then you may say, well, now we’re in the car, we’re not looking at each other, talk to me about your feelings. And that’s still maybe hard. And so the goal is not to To have your children do exactly what you say, it’s to come up with something that works for both of you.
Todd: Well, and I will say, as you share in the book, that’s when JC came out to you.
Cathy: Yes. Yes. She did. Well, that wasn’t, I mean, she had, we were already writing to each other way before. No.
Todd: But. That is the way she, that is the way she decided to do that, which is, you know, I, I would like to think that we are, uh, open enough parents where she could have, you know, if she didn’t have this tool of the notebook thing that you gave to her, hopefully she would’ve, um, you know, came out to us in a different way sometimes shortly thereafter.
Todd: But the fact that she was a tool in her toolbox that she act, she decided to [00:22:00] use was very wonderful.
Cathy: And, and I know exactly what you’re saying. I’m not, but I want, I don’t want there to be a right way. Like, and I know that’s not what you’re saying, but for people who are listening to what Todd says, like, there isn’t like, well, at least she wrote me a letter.
Cathy: I wish she would have told me to my face. Why? Yeah, who cares? Who cares? Just
Todd: do it any way you feel like it. I
Cathy: don’t feel that that parents are like, I need my kids to talk to me in a way that, you know, I read in a book or the way that my mom used to do that. I think we have to allow our kids to share in a way in their own time.
Cathy: without overwhelming expectation or feeling that they’re failing in some way. That that’s the judgment they feel. And a lot of times they’ll just say things to pacify us and they really don’t have an opportunity to share in a deep way because they know that we’ll be disappointed if they do it in a different way.
Cathy: So let’s be honest. I didn’t say that at all, but I want to be clear just from your like, maybe she could have come to us another way. [00:23:00] I don’t care.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: I didn’t need anything but the way she shared.
Todd: So let’s double back to why they come to us at night.
Cathy: Yes.
Todd: So I can read a few things or if you just want to jump right in.
Todd: Well,
Cathy: let me start with a lot of times it’s because it’s night and their cortisol levels have gone down.
Todd: Cortisol means fear. That’s stress. Stress.
Cathy: You know, that like feeling of like, I got to do things and they’re starting to decrease their anxiety. They’re starting to slow down. And what happens, anybody who lays down on a bed and closes their eyes, what happens when you do that?
Todd: Mind starts racing.
Cathy: Correct.
Todd: Yeah. So
Cathy: your mind starts racing. And so you start thinking about things that you’re anxious about and you start thinking about things, or maybe you get into your room before you’ve even laid your head down. Things are quieter. You’re done with your homework and you start thinking.
Cathy: Thinking about the next day and you start thinking about what happened that day. So that’s why it was really important to say that kids aren’t coming to us at night just because they’re trying to be annoying. It’s because they have finally had a moment where they’ve realized they’re scared about [00:24:00] tomorrow or they had a bad day.
Todd: You’re right. Their feelings are genuine, but it’s more of an unfiltered emotional release than an accurate reflection of their daily reality. What do you mean by that?
Cathy: Yeah, well, I think that a lot of times when our kids unload at night, it’s so unfiltered and they don’t have, they’re not always fully rational.
Cathy: And they don’t have a full wide perspective. What they’re unloading in that moment are the heightened feelings that they felt during the day. So it’s like with their like blinders on, here’s how I felt, here’s what happened. I’m overwhelmed by it. And the reason I’m saying blinders is because when you have a full perspective, you understand maybe the teacher wasn’t yelling at you, they were yelling at everybody.
Cathy: Or that kid who bumped you walking down the hall was just in a hurry, they didn’t mean to hurt you. Or, um, you know, what you’re doing tomorrow is really not that big of a deal, but it feels like a big deal. So when they’re unloading, it’s like the most [00:25:00] raw version of what you’re doing. Of their feeling and the reason why we need to understand that is a lot of times I actually share a story in there I do was doing a presentation last year and a mom told me that she we were talking about this how our kids unload at Night, and she was saying yeah, my kid was sharing so much stuff one night that when she was done and went to bed She’s like the next morning.
Cathy: I called the school
Todd: and
Cathy: said you guys got to keep a closer Eye, here’s what my daughter’s going through whatever and the school said oh We don’t see any of that. Like that, it was, it was a small school. So it was a private school. So they had a small amount of girls in their class. And they’re like, we’re not seeing any of that.
Cathy: Now, of course they were like, we’ll listen, but you know, what she’s describing doesn’t sound like what we’re seeing. So. Her daughter came down to breakfast that morning. Their mom’s like, well, I called the school to follow up about what you told me. And her daughter was like, why would you do that? She, her daughter explained to her, I’m just telling you how I feel.
Cathy: I’m not saying I need you to do [00:26:00] anything about it. Now, there are plenty of conversations we have with our kids where they say, will you do something about that? And they’re very specific, or you realize there’s something, you know, toxic happening or something that your child cannot handle alone, especially if adults are involved.
Cathy: But, majority of the time, they’re just unloading, and our ability to not take action, which is oftentimes our way of unloading our feelings about it.
Todd: We need to feel, we feel like things are out of control, we’re uncomfortable, so I need to do something to make myself comfortable, so what I would do is I would call the school to fix this problem for my daughter.
Cathy: Right. Right. We, we think like, and we always feel like, you know, when my daughters have said to me over the years or clients or anybody, you know, I feel like this person doesn’t like me, or I feel like I’m not doing well in this class, or I feel like this teacher doesn’t like me, or I feel like this group of people doesn’t like me.
Cathy: That is so normal and common.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: Like, I know we want to like jump in and fix it and make it be better, but [00:27:00] I don’t know a girl 12 to 25 or older or women who don’t often feel like they’re not part of a group or that they’re not seen or that they’re not valued. And even if I throw all these, um, You know, all this information to like counteract what they’re telling me and to say, well, actually this person texts you all the time, or this teacher told you you’re doing great in the class.
Cathy: Even if I have all of this evidence to contradict what they’re saying, they still feel it. And that’s what they need to release is there’s something that happened or there was an experience they had that made them feel that way. And the more you kind of have to think about it as like a, some baggage or debris they need to unload and then they can see more clearly.
Cathy: If we try and stop them from saying it because we don’t want to hear it, then they don’t get to unload that and then have a cleaner perspective. It’s like, um, I wrote something a long time ago. I actually got it from Mark Nepo. I didn’t come up with it, but it is about [00:28:00] when we have all these feelings, It’s like looking through dirty glasses and the whole world looks dirty and Talking about it and relieving ourselves and having someone listen not judgmentally helps us clean our glasses Yeah, it’s healing and so things clear.
Cathy: Yeah, everything’s clearer
Todd: You talk that you call this either end of the day unloading or nighttime emotional release
Cathy: Yeah, and you know like we could come up with other terms Todd like I kind of feel like you know In your family, the goal is call it something so you can honor it.
Todd: And maybe bring levity to it.
Todd: Yeah. It doesn’t have to be so serious.
Cathy: It’s like, and you don’t, you’re not like, oh, roll my eyes. Is this the nighttime unloading? Because then you’re not. Treating it with regard. There’s no dignity there. But if you’re like, if you together understand, Yep, it feels like night time unloading. Yeah,
Todd: or just let your worries out.
Cathy: Yeah, letting your worries out. That’s a good one. I used to love when the girls were little, the worry dolls. Do you guys remember [00:29:00] the worry dolls? They were like those teeny little worry dolls and you could like buy them like at, you know. They soft? Bears or Yeah, they’re like, they’re tiny. Where did we get ours?
Cathy: At the flea market, I think. Um, but the whole point of worry dolls is you are supposed to say your worries to the dolls and allow them to work it through. And you know, there’s many versions of that. If you, if you do prayer or if you do meditation, you know, the whole, I, I taught the girls that a lot of times when there’s things I can’t control, I just put it on the altar, which is a meditation thing.
Cathy: Like, I’m just going to set it on this altar because I can’t change it. You know, and allow there to be a universal agreement that we’re all doing this together. Um, and so you don’t need to use mine, like come up with, with your kid. What should we call this time together? Is it, you know, nighttime unloading?
Cathy: Is it, what did you just say? Getting your worries out? Worries out. Um, you know, is it called, um, you know, there’s, decide because then your kid understands it [00:30:00] too and you understand it and you can have some. Boundaries around it, you know, some understand, because I understand that at nighttime, you’re exhausted.
Cathy: Everybody is. And so to say to your kid, like, there are times when my girls and I are talking through something and I will say to them, this is more historical because now two of them go to college, so they’re not knocking on my door as much. Um, but where I would say to them, you know what, I feel like I’m not giving you my full attention and this is really important because I’m falling asleep.
Cathy: So let’s make a plan. I’m going to pick you up from school tomorrow. Let’s go, you know, Get a coke or, you know, do something together, go to the grocery store together, whatever, and keep talking this through when I’m more clear. Now, I wouldn’t do that immediately. I’d probably, that’d be after like 15 or 30 minutes.
Cathy: Like I, I, I think it’s important for them to know they can come to you and get a little bit of that resolved. But then if I’m like, Ooh, there’s so much more than the boundary would be, let’s do this later.
Todd: Yeah. [00:31:00] Well, and his parents, um, kind of, I don’t know if I shared this, but we have to get creative on how we connect with our kids.
Todd: And sometimes I get very selfish, like, okay, I’m ready to connect with you now on this drive. And the kid has no interest. She just wants to put her headphones on. Um, so I can either throw my hands up in the air and say, Oh, I just, I’m not connecting with my daughters or my daughters don’t know how to connect with me anymore.
Todd: Or what’s
Cathy: wrong with that? What’s
Todd: wrong with that? Right. When in fact, because we’re the adults, because we’re the ones who brought them in this world, it’s our job, it’s our responsibility to get creative and figure out how to connect with them. You know, if you have sons and all they do is like the game, figure, you know, go, go game with them for a little bit.
Todd: You have to get creative instead of like, I think it has to look a certain way, so. Correct.
Cathy: And trust that you’re going to be creative and try something and then it’ll work and it may not work again a month later. So creativity is an essential skill as a parent and also compassion for yourself because you may, you know, one of Todd, my Absolute favorite scenes in 8th [00:32:00] grade, the movie 8th grade, um, which feels like a documentary, but it’s not.
Cathy: Is this scene where the dad is working cause he’s a single dad and he’s working so hard to understand his daughter and he’s feeling so distant from her. And then she’s trying to cover something up. It’s kind of a funny scene, but she says that she’s wants this banana. And he’s like, he, he’s like, I think I put in my notes that you didn’t like bananas.
Cathy: And it’s just a funny, I got it. You do. Oh, good. Banana. All
right. Is that a banana?
You having a banana? Oh, this. I was just grabbing a banana. You hated bananas.
I swear, like a month ago, I asked you if you wanted a banana and you got all angry at me. You said you hate bananas and I always forget that you hate bananas. I actually think I wrote a note
Todd: then about it from my answer.
Cathy: I mean, isn’t that so the truth?
Todd: One of [00:33:00] the best. Movie dads of all time.
Cathy: He’s trying so hard.
Todd: He’s trying so hard. And he’s so annoying. He’s writing notes to try to remember What his daughter likes and doesn’t like. Do I write notes? Heck no. I’m like winging it most of the time. Well, he’s on his own. He’s on his own. Right. He’s gotta do that.
Cathy: Yeah, he’s on his own and he You know, he’s also, he’s not doing things perfectly, but he’s trying to listen to what she says.
Cathy: And if you noticed, he’s like, yeah, you got really mad at me that I asked you if you like bananas. Like, and, and that’s the thing is you have to see our ability to be the, the biggest part about this book, if you listen to, um, We talked about spiral dynamics and, and how that connects to this book, which is a kind of a heady concept, but the most important part of it is flexibility and adaptability is there is no black and white, right, wrong, you know, hierarchy of authority.
Cathy: Um, there’s only one way to do this. You need to be like me. That’s all like, [00:34:00] That’s all like duality and flexibility and adaptability is now here we are. This isn’t working. Let me try this. And it’s not just a game of trying to keep up your desire and ability to be creative is what keeps you connected to your kid.
Cathy: They’re not trying to like run you ragged your ability to be like, well, let me try this instead. Let me, that’s how you stay connected. So. You know, you’re either, you’re going to put in work one way or the other. You’re either going to put in work. Put it in on the front end. Yeah. Not only on the front end, exactly.
Cathy: But also with being creative versus arguing all the time.
Todd: Do you know what I mean? Yep. No, go ahead. No, no, that’s it. We’re going to double down a little bit, but first, because I want to be, uh, authentic with my want to play a little bit of wicked in between little sections.
Cathy: I don’t get it.
My pulse is rushing.
My head is reeling. Well, my face is flushing. What is this feeling? So, [00:35:00] this
Cathy: is
nothing
Todd: new to what we’re talking about.
Cathy: I know, I’m like, you just said, I just want to be authentic. Yeah. What does that mean? It
Todd: means I promised everybody clips from Wicked. You did? Yeah. I didn’t hear that. I said I would play three or four clips, sweetie.
Adulterated loathing. Your face, your voice, clothing.
Todd: Oh boy. So clothing. Um, so I, I wanted to share when you are in this space with your kid and your kid is sharing, you said sometimes even with clients, you open up a window.
Cathy: Oh yeah. That’s just me getting into my woo woo stuff. Well talk about your woo woo stuff.
Cathy: Well, I, I, I really believe as. You know, that energy needs to move. Okay. So if I have that understanding, then I’ll use this as an example, because anyone who spends time with me knows this. If someone sneezes. You need to open a window and let it out because Or you don’t have to. To me, it’s important.
Cathy: Obviously in a house, I’m not running around opening a window. [00:36:00] But if I’m in a car and someone sneezes, it’s not about germs. It’s about, a sneeze is a release. It’s like a, it could just be something’s tickling my nose. But a lot of times it’s like a feeling or a, you know, a thought. Or, you know, I believe sneezes to be bigger than just a common cold.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: Yeah. And so, and for those of you who are like, I don’t know what you’re talking about, have you ever sneezed in meditation? I find it very interesting because I do all the time. Anyway, I open a window to let it out. I feel the same way if I’m doing a session with someone in my office. I always have the window open because their feelings and the stories they’re telling, they need a place to go.
Cathy: I, first of all, A, I don’t want to absorb it. B, because that doesn’t help anybody. Um, B, I think that it is a visual representation of what we’re doing. Let’s let go. Let’s let go. And so, when I used to have women’s circle, I would always keep a window open. You know, when people were talking.
Todd: Yeah, because people are sharing emotions and all that.
Todd: You know who did get, who did make a big deal out of sneezing, don’t you, [00:37:00] sweetie? Who? Mr. and Mrs. Brady. Because
Cathy: Cindy got the sniffle.
Todd: And then, and then what happened? She couldn’t go
Cathy: on the boat.
Todd: Whose boat?
Cathy: Mr Come on, sweetie. Let me think. Mr. Something’s
Todd: boat. Mr. Phillips boat. Mr. Phillips. Because she sneezed once.
Todd: I remember when I was like six years old and I saw that Brady Bunch, I’m like, she just sneezed. I thought the exact same thing. Why are they still worried about the kid sneezing? And like, sorry, Cindy, you can’t go on Mr. Phillips boat this weekend. And by the way, who really wants to go on Mr. Phillips boat in the first place?
Cathy: And that’s the thing. It’s, it’s, it’s It’s as if the Brady’s thought the only reason someone sneezes is because they’re like full on sick. Yeah. Like we sneeze all the time. I don’t know if you guys notice that, but like there, you may not pay attention because you’re not sick, but you are sneezing throughout your life because that’s how we release things and it’s part of the reason we say God bless you.
Cathy: Because didn’t people used to think that it was like our spirit leaving our
Todd: body? Yes, I think so. Uh oh. So this is a 23 second clip. I’ve never seen it before. It’s like girls versus boys [00:38:00] sneezing.
Cathy: Oh boy.
Todd: Yeah, let’s see what happens here.
Cathy: That’s a girl. Oh,
Cathy: that’s what I do.
Todd: These are the boys sneezing.
Cathy: Okay. Speaking of, you can turn off those because those are just loud in my ears. Your sneeze is so loud. Sweetie, wait till I’m 80. It’s so loud. And I don’t understand, we’ve probably talked about this, but Todd’s sneeze did not used to be like that. So I’m not quite sure what’s happening.
Cathy: I’m maturing, sweetie. It’s so loud. It scares me. And I think I’ve shared on the show that I feel like a mean person because sometimes he sneezes so loud I don’t want to say bless you. Thanks a lot. I need my blessings. I know. And I usually do. I become, I become a big person and I say bless you, but you know that it’s really loud, right?
Cathy: Or are you trying [00:39:00] to do it on purpose? I’m
Todd: not trying to do anything on purpose. It’s like, it’s natural. It just comes out.
Cathy: Yeah. Are you trying to sneeze on purpose? Well, if you noticed, and I’m not saying this is good. Especially women listening, but I hold it in a lot of the time. I do it like that. And I do that because I’m thinking about other people.
Cathy: I’m not. I know. This is like our I’m sneezing.
Todd: This
Cathy: is, this is
Todd: podcast on sneezing.
Cathy: We should. Well, we are right now. Well, we’re
Todd: doing a little piece of a podcast about sneezing. I think it’s unhealthy to hold that in.
Cathy: Okay. So this, this becomes our, you know, value system and like where we’re ranking things, because I think it’s important to also sneeze and let it out.
Cathy: And if I’m by myself, I’ve no problem doing that. Or if I’m, you know, can turn away and I’m just with people who don’t care. But if I’m in a big room or like on an airplane, or there’s a lot of people there, I’m not going to do a sneeze like yours.
Todd: But what about when we’re walking around the house? No reason for [00:40:00] you to hold that in, sweetie.
Cathy: I don’t think I do.
Todd: I hope you don’t.
Cathy: I think it just depends.
Todd: Yeah. But I think that there is a time. Like, put it this way, if I’m at a wedding. Yeah. And they’re about to say their vows, I’m going to try a little bit harder to make it a quieter sneeze. So you have the ability to do that. I do have the ability, but why would I go through that effort?
Todd: Unless somebody’s getting married in that moment.
Cathy: Right. I mean, I get it. Like, I, I don’t want to be, I want to be very careful because I don’t want to say we should be quiet so we don’t annoy other people. Because sometimes we need to sneeze and that’s healthy. I just think sometimes when there’s a lot of people, like we just flew on a plane and I’m not going to do one of your sneezes on a plane.
Todd: Sweetie, even if you wanted to do one of my sneezes, you wouldn’t be able to do one of my sneezes. This is true. This is true. I’m the king of sneezes. I’m the all time king at sneezing. I
Cathy: know. We know this.
Todd: Um, okay. I, I, maybe, what do we got? Not much time left. Um, you talk about if, uh, if your daughter shares that she doesn’t have any friends to sit with at lunch, we may have an overblown reaction [00:41:00] because it brings up times when we didn’t have any friends to sit with at lunch.
Todd: And then you talk about something that my sister brings up every now and again in her 12 step community regarding if it’s hysterical. It’s historical. So say more about that. Um,
Cathy: so. What I said was that, um, a lot of times the reason we really struggle with these late night talks is because we’re all so tired, so our defenses are down, and our kids may share with us something that we also experienced at school, or something we’re worried about when it comes to our kid.
Cathy: Like, maybe we’re worried about our kids don’t have friends. Or our kid doesn’t have friends, and then they come to you late at night and say, I have no one to sit with at lunch. So not only are you hearing their feelings, but you have strong feelings about it as well. Again, another reason that you wanna go fix it.
Cathy: Sure. That is difficult. Like I, I feel like we just need to have a second where we say That’s hard.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: And that I, and there’s nothing I can do, anyone can do to make that not hard because if we have fears about our kids or fears about challenges they’ll [00:42:00] face and then they tell us Yes. I’m facing that challenge.
Cathy: There’s a lot of emotion in that situation. Again, though, the chapter this is in is lead. And we need to, at least in that moment, we don’t need to clean it up and make it better. We can allow it to be open and difficult. And we can say, that sounds really hard and that sounds really tough. And we can just be with them.
Cathy: We don’t have to silver lining it, but we do need to lead as far as we carry on. Meaning like, I’ve got your back, we’re gonna take it day by day, we may not have it all figured out tonight, but we’ll figure it out as we go, um, I love you, um, you know, things where they know that you have a sturdiness to you, where they can count on your sturdiness.
Cathy: And now you may then, they may leave and go back to their room and you Huddle into a ball and say, Oh God, this is really overwhelming. And if you have a partner who can help you through that or a therapist or a friend, it’s not that it shouldn’t affect us. It does. But [00:43:00] again, you guys have probably heard this before.
Cathy: Liz Gilbert said this to Glennon, and I think Glennon wrote about it, wrote about it in her book. She was saying, you know, sometimes in parenting, we have to be like the flight attendants. Is that if the plane is shaking, we have to be the ones to be like, You know, just keep handing out the peanuts, keep handing out the, the, you know, we don’t do peanuts anymore.
Cathy: Sweetie, you
Todd: would not be a good flight attendant, by the way.
Cathy: No, but I am a good parent in that way. Like I can stay sturdy. I just don’t like airplanes.
Todd: You know, what’s interesting is if you and I are flying somewhere and there’s a lot of turbulence, you break my fingers or are close to it. And I have a feeling if you were sitting next to one of our daughters, you would probably not do that.
Todd: I
Cathy: have no reaction if I’m with them.
Todd: Isn’t that interesting? You can convince yourself. push that down?
Cathy: No, it’s no different than your sneeze. You can, at a wedding, not sneeze. And I can, with my kids,
Todd: lead. So what is the cost of holding in a sneeze or [00:44:00] not freaking out on a plane? Is there any cost? Well,
Cathy: there, there might be, but it’s a trade off because everything in life is nuanced.
Cathy: Like, we can walk around and say, the best thing you can do is let out a sneeze. Okay, in the best of circumstances, do that. But we can’t do that every time because someone might be getting married or we might be on a plane or there’s someone sitting right in front of us and we don’t want to sneeze in their face.
Cathy: Like, sometimes we, there’s a, there’s always a nuanced response to everything. And so if I’m flying with my kids, Even at the age they are now, I’m not gonna freak out, because I am, now, they know me well enough now that they know I don’t like turbulence, and sometimes it’ll be like, ooh, mom doesn’t like this.
Cathy: They don’t like
Todd: it when they don’t tell you that turbulence is coming up.
Cathy: Yes. For all you pilots out there, I’ve told you this before, just tell us. And actually, this pilot, Two days ago, when we were flying home, he did. Yeah. He said, um,
Todd: Right. Halfway through. He
Cathy: said, in about an hour from now, there’s going to be turbulence, and guess what?
Cathy: It was only like for a minute. It wasn’t a big deal. But as long as I know, and we’re all on the same page, as long as Cathy knows, in 29 [00:45:00] D, then all is well.
Todd: 29 D.
Cathy: Um, but that’s where I was. Uh, so, the point is, is that I think there are times we can fall apart with our partner. We can fall apart in our therapist’s office with our best friends, but with our kids, it’s not that, and again, this is nuanced also, I have fallen apart in front of my kids when my parents died, or when I hurt myself, or when I was scared.
Cathy: It’s not that I, they’ve never cried in front of them. No, you just
Todd: don’t want to make a habit to have your kids pick you up.
Cathy: Right. It is not their job to make me feel better about turbulence. It is not their job to make me feel better about their lunch table. It is not their job to make me feel better about them growing up.
Cathy: That’s my work as a self aware parent, as somebody who’s like, what kind of relationship is this? And what do they need from me? Yeah. And what they need from me is some stability, not answers.
Todd: Literally stability on that plane, sweetie, because there’s not a lot of stability during turbulence.
Cathy: No, there isn’t.
Cathy: And I can do it. I can do a lot of things. I’m, I’m great in crisis. Yeah, you are. [00:46:00] Um,
Todd: afterwards, you’re I’m not great afterwards,
Cathy: but that’s the release, right? Yeah. Like, I I kind of feel like I can. Yeah, you just
Todd: push it aside for a bit and then you let it come out.
Cathy: And then I let it go. And um, that is, I think for me, that is the way I’ve learned to do things that I feel like is healthy enough.
Cathy: Because the thing is, is as a parent, like there’s a lot of things we’re supposed to do. We’re supposed to get plenty of sleep. We’re supposed to focus on ourselves. We’re supposed to practice self care. We’re supposed to do work we love. We’re supposed to, you know, do this, do that. Can you guys do that as a parent all the time?
Cathy: A lot of supposed Yeah, there’s, you can’t do those things all the time. So, And, and I think that the more sturdy we are in those nighttime conversations where we say, yep, you know, I’m right there with you. We’re going to figure this out together. It, the conversation won’t be an hour long. You know, they, they, if they know they’ve shared it with you and you have a sturdiness to you about it and you, because what is sturdiness?
Cathy: It’s faith that they’ll get through it. You’re not telling them how they’re going to get through it. You’re just [00:47:00] saying. I know we can get through this. Truth. I can’t think of anything better, even me at my age, that’s the best thing anyone can say to me. I’ve had to say to Todd before, will you just tell me this is, I’m gonna get through this.
Cathy: Like, if someone’s like, yeah, that’s rough, huh, what are we gonna do? That’s not sturdy. Saying, yeah, that’s rough, it sounds like it’s overwhelming and I totally get that. Let’s take it day by day and let’s do this together. Yeah. You, you’re, you’re not alone. Right. Um,
Todd: so we have a few minutes left to close up.
Todd: Anything you wanted to get to that we didn’t get to?
Cathy: Just the two things that we already said. Number one, my book comes out in a week, so order it now if you plan on ordering it. You can get it anytime, but the pre orders are really helpful. Number two, um, join Todd and I for this virtual workshop about restoring our girls.
Cathy: All you need to do is buy the book, and it’s really just when you go to register for the class, you just check a box that you bought it. Pretty much an honor system. Um, I’m not gonna like, you know, ruffle, rifle through your
Todd: CPR [00:48:00] people are honorable, sweetie. Yes, just,
Cathy: you know, come because it’s, I’m offering it for free because I assume you’ve, you’ve read the book.
Cathy: And so, and, and it’s just a virtual class. Like, you just show up on Zoom. You don’t have to ask questions. You can just be a voyeur and listen. There’s no pressure. This isn’t school. Um, yeah. If Todd had his way, he would make you talk, but I will not. I would
Todd: have you check in, um, check in with a feeling.
Cathy: Nope. Only if you want to. And, uh, so that’s, so those two things, if you scroll down below the show notes, you can click on buying the book and you also click on this class and, um,
Todd: And, uh, register for the conference.
Cathy: Register for the conference and go see Wicked.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: And I also saw Gladiator 2.
Todd: Let’s just listen to a little bit of Wicked.
Todd: Oh, that’s the wrong one. Bye.
In all of us. No wizard that there is or was, is ever gonna bring. Sweetie’s[00:49:00]
Todd: crying.
Cathy: It always makes me teary.
Todd: I
Cathy: know. Can’t not.
Todd: See you next week everybody. Keep truckin
Round two. Change a little bit. And change a little bit. Pretty [00:50:00] pleasant.
