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Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to yet another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is pod, this is episode number 787. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is that the best predictor of a child’s wellbeing is a parent’s self understanding.
Todd: On today’s show, we’re going to go over one of Cathy’s moments. That she does on Substack and we’re gonna talk about a term that we’ve talked about briefly in the past, but it got brought back into my awareness last Friday. And the term is called love bombing, love bombing. And I think it’s an important thing that I don’t hear very often when we, you know, we’ve been doing this a long time and we’ve scratched the surface, but I think it’s an important lesson for [00:01:00] us to teach our kids.
Todd: Um, and I don’t think you could start teaching this. Oh, you could probably start teaching this too early, but, um, the more that we can plant the seed of what it is and what to look out for and how to avoid danger. Um, I think it’ll be helpful. So, um, how are you feeling right now, my sweetheart? Good. Good. Um, so you wrote a moment last week and it was called, what was it called?
Todd: Valuing Uncertainty, which I think was an interesting title for you. Really? Yeah, because, uh, First of all, we all, I think we all have a relationship with uncertainty. Mm hmm. I remember listening to Tony Robbins one time at one of his workshops. He’s like, who likes surprises? And like half the people raise their hands and he says, BS, you like the surprises that you want.
Cathy: Like if you want a surprise birthday party or somebody buys you a car. Right. You like those surprises.
Todd: Surprises of, oh, you just lost all your money. No, that’s not a good surprise. So it just depends. So I thought it was interesting of you talking about valuing, uncertain, valuing, uncertainty, [00:02:00] and you put it in terms of, you know, sometimes certainty is good.
Todd: Like you talk a little bit about, you know, when, when you touch your hand to a hot stove, you know, for certain, every time you do that, it’s going to hurt. So you should stop. This you should stop. But then you also talk a little bit about, um, in relationships or more complex situations, uncertainty is sometimes an opportunity for growth.
Cathy: Well, if you, if you touch a stove and you burn your hand, then you learn I’m not going to do that anymore. But if you have a relationship and you fall in love and you get your heart broken, that doesn’t mean you should stop. being in relationship with people. Right. And so we have to live inside of this, um, you know, the words that I focus on are nuance, discernment, paradox, curiosity, all these words that, um, we tend to, uh, Sometimes we, we undervalue the importance of talking about these things when it comes to our kids or recognizing it ourselves, because we really like binary thinking where we think we’re [00:03:00] good.
Cathy: Other people are bad. We there’s only one right answer and then a wrong answer. And really none of that truly exists, at least in my perspective, it doesn’t, I think everything is nuanced and we have to have the ability to discern, um, in what situation, like if we, the hot stove. If we burn our hand, we’re like, well, I’m never going to do that again.
Cathy: And then, like I said, we get our heart broken and we’re like, I’m never going to do that again, then that’s not good. So we have to be able to discern that this is something we should risk again. We should take this risk. Or if we get fired from a job, we’re not like, well, I’m never going to get a job again.
Cathy: You have to keep going.
Todd: Well, and I feel like sometimes uncertainty leads to challenges and you talk about that in, on your sub stack and challenges are uncomfortable and challenges also are, and I say this when I’m coaching my guys all the time, there’s really not, there’s not much growth that happens when things are going well.
Todd: Right. I love it when things go well, but I’m probably not learning a whole lot. Whereas if we can [00:04:00] meet this uncertainty or meet these challenges in a way that, um, you know, feel all my feelings, not like bypass it. But then after I feel all my feelings, like, okay, what, what is this here for me to do? How is this here for me to figure out how to do this better?
Todd: And I, it’s funny, I think it can very easily connect to love bombing too. Yeah,
Cathy: this conversation about valuing uncertainty, it does connect to love bombing in that these are the kind of things that when, Sometimes I, I, when I’m writing, I don’t love using the word teach our kids because we’re not really trying to give them definitions and say, here’s the definitions, learn this.
Cathy: We’re trying to have conversations with them that, that like promote what Or give examples of or have real life experiences that involve nuanced discernment, you know, like for example, if you’re, you know, I have a million of these in my book about how, you know, girls will tell me, um, you know, this girl, one of the stories I tell in the book is this girl is like, [00:05:00] my book is called restoring our girls.
Cathy: Sometimes I just jump in and I forget that.
Todd: Hold on, sweetie.
Cathy: It is. And you have to go get it. It’s, um, it’s available for pre sale right now. And it’ll come out in
Todd: January, correct?
Cathy: Yeah. And it’s really helpful to buy it pre sale just FYI. If you’re planning on buying it anyway, do it before because it’s helpful.
Cathy: Like it makes sure that more people get access to it. It’s just one of those. things in publishing that we have learned. But anyway, one of the stories that I tell is a girl who’s like, you know, there’s this new girl that’s hanging out with us and she’s really bugging me because she, um, you know, she seems to be like taking over the group or talking a lot in our group.
Cathy: And she’s really annoying me and her, this girl, this girl was in fifth grade. Her first choice was I’m going to be mean to her and push her out. And it’s like, okay, that is an option. You can do that. What are the other options involved here? And part of it is curiosity. Let’s, let’s think about why she’s doing this.
Cathy: Let’s think about where did she come from? Did another [00:06:00] friend group, maybe she lost some friends and now she’s coming in and she’s uncomfortable and that’s why she’s talking a lot. Um, and again, it’s not, this is a really, this is a conversation we need to have some nuance too, because the first thing you do is listen to your child’s perspective.
Cathy: You don’t jump to what about them? You first listen to your child’s perspective. And then when they say, okay, I, you know, I heard you and they’re like, I’m going to push this girl out. It’s like, well, let’s, let’s think about it. What are some other things you can do? We can consider what’s going on. Maybe we can, you know, recognize that when she’s around, sometimes we’re going to have to be a little more patient.
Cathy: Maybe we can talk to another friend about, can we spend time together alone? Cause I’m missing conversation with you because and you may say, oh, they’re in fifth grade. This is too elevated of a conversation. Maybe. But this is when you start having these conversations, because if they start hearing this in fifth grade, maybe they can’t implement it.
Cathy: But then in seventh grade, they remember what they heard in fifth grade, and they’re like, maybe I can do part of that. And by the time they’re 15 or 16, they’re [00:07:00] like, okay, that’s something I’ve practiced, done, seen, recognized, valued, and it’s easier. We often think we can’t teach something or talk about something until our kid is fully going to implement it.
Cathy: And we can, you know. I don’t know how many of you have this experience, but I think all of you do, you know, when your kids are little, you say, put away your shoes or put away your clothes. They may not do it completely, but you start that process. So by the time they’re older, they understand that’s a value in your house.
Todd: Well, most of us tend, I say, tend to have, I’m glad you made that differentiation. Like the whole idea of teaching our kids, it’s not the language that we teach. It’s more like, how do we have conversations, a back and forth conversation about these complicated topics of being a human being in relationship with other human beings?
Cathy: And how do we value, like there’s been things with my own daughters where maybe there’s a situation with friendships or relationships where we just say, yeah, I don’t know. And you sit with that uncertainty without trying to create a plan around it. If you’re a problem solving kind of parent, which many [00:08:00] parents I talk to are, you’re trying to get over this thing and jump through this thing or jump over this thing and not talk about this thing anymore.
Cathy: So you want to problem solve it. And part of valuing uncertainty is realizing that they may tell you a whole story and you go, Whoa, I don’t know. I don’t know how that’s going to unfold. And that you live inside of that uncertainty. There is nothing to quote unquote do. There’s just a conversation to be had.
Cathy: Like, You know, you know, let’s go way back when Todd and I first started Zen Parenting Radio. He and I used to talk about our conversations and that when I would come home from work and I would say, Oh my gosh, you know, this person said this at work and this person did this and no one’s recognizing me at work.
Cathy: And I’m so upset. And Todd would say, well, here’s what you need to do here, what you need to do. And I’d be like, I really don’t want advice. I just want to share. And then he’d say, well, if you don’t want advice, why are you telling me about this? And it’s like, well, I’m just talking it through first of all, to process it number two, to recognize that there’s a lot of uncertainty in it and that you see that, and that we kind of, there’s a soft [00:09:00] landing for that understanding, you know, that you’re like, yeah, that is difficult.
Cathy: And not everything is to be problem solved. We don’t want to
Todd: skip over the process of it being
Cathy: a little messy.
Todd: Yeah. And if your kid comes to you with a problem and then you say, Oh, this is what you’re going to do. And even if she, now there’s something he or she needs to go do when in fact, sometimes it’s good just to let it out.
Todd: Sure. Just say it and hold the space for it. And that, the weird thing is sometimes your kid will actually want some advice maybe. And you can even say, Hey, is this advice giving time or do you just want to like let this out a little bit and just kind of vent from this kind of frustrated place and, and
Cathy: relate.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: You know where you say, Oh yeah, I totally like, you know, definitely all three of my girls have had times like they’re in a class and they’re getting a C or a B and they want it to be higher. And they’re in this like middle of this place with this class where they’re like, I don’t know how this is going to turn out.
Cathy: And we’re like, we don’t either, you know, like you can’t jump to the next test. You can’t, you have to sit in that [00:10:00] discomfort of, I’m not sure how this is going to play out.
Todd: That’s why we, uh, shift. We as parents shift into problem solving mode because really what’s happening is my kid is uncomfortable or sad or mad or frustrated and it’s making me uncomfortable.
Todd: So let’s get me out of this discomfort. So let me solve your problem so I can go on with my day.
Cathy: Or our expectation is why isn’t this kid utilizing the organizational skills that I utilize and doing the things that I would do to get this grade or get this You know, this new job at work or whatever, and you have to remember that you are in your 30s, 40s, or 50s, and you have developed those skills.
Cathy: Your kid has not developed those skills yet, nor should they be expected to. And this experience that they’re having in the moment is how they develop the skills. That’s like, we sometimes look, I always call it looking through your adult glasses at your kids. And you’re like, why wouldn’t you just make a checklist and put it on your app and then color code it and then check it off [00:11:00] the list and then ask a tutor for help.
Cathy: And then call your, you know, like, call your friends. That’s because we’re adults. We’ve learned how to do that. Our kids are developing those skills and to Todd’s point, if they say, how would you do this? Door is wide open to say, here’s some things I learned, but the expectation that they should already know that a fifth grade kid wouldn’t say, well, I’m just going to blow this girl off or I’m going to blow this boy off, or I’m going to, you know, um, be mean to this kid.
Cathy: So they stopped hanging out with me. That is like, it’s, It’s not okay, but it’s developmentally typical. Yeah. It’s what happens. It’s what happens. And then we start to talk to them about, can we see this through different options, a different lens? Let’s try this or let’s sit in the messiness or discomfort of it and not jump to conclusions.
Cathy: And so anyway,
Todd: um, so before we step into love bombing, I just want to say, uh, Cathy does this women’s group on Team Zen. It’s our 25 a month. group that we have created. Virtual community. Virtual community. Thanks, sweetie. Uh, so if you want to hang out with Cathy for an hour tomorrow with a bunch of [00:12:00] other amazing women,
Cathy: yes,
Todd: um, check it out and you just scroll in the show notes below.
Todd: So, um, last Friday I was at, um, a breakfast from, I was invited by an organization called a call to men and the topic, the purpose of this organization is trying to eliminate domestic Abuse and domestic violence, uh, towards women at the hands of men. And they have a wonderful organization. And I was just so honored to be a part of it.
Todd: And I gave a three to five minute pitch about why I do what I do with men living, which is wonderful
Cathy: for those of you who have come to our conference, Tony Porter, who is the CEO of a call to men. He spoke at our conference two years ago. And then the other man, Ted Bunch was part of our virtual summit. A year ago.
Cathy: Right. So it’s a community that we really appreciate.
Todd: So the closing keynote was this woman and she gave this, uh, story about her experience. She is a, um, [00:13:00] she’s a staff member at a call to men. I don’t know if she wants me to share her name or not. I’m sure she, it’s probably okay, but let’s just assume for whatever reason.
Todd: Um, and she shared her story and it was a story of, uh, domestic violence and domestic abuse. And it’s a horrific story. And I don’t know if I need to, or want to go into the whole thing, but it’s really, really tough. But at the, at the beginning stages of this relationship with this man, who actually is now in jail as a result of some of the things that horrific things that he did to her, um, she was saying that he showed up in their relationship at the beginning, um, with such sweetness, with such tenderness.
Todd: And he ended up doing these. awful things that don’t connect between the beginning of this relationship and how the relationship ended. And she didn’t use the word love bombing be, and I’m kind of glad she didn’t because a lot of the audience would not have known what that word meant, but she kind of explained it.
Todd: without needing to use the [00:14:00] word. And, uh, it was just a good reminder for me as I have three daughters, 21, 19, and, uh, 17. And as they start their relationship experience as young women, uh, I think it’s an important piece to help parents who might be listening to this podcast know what this is. So although we have school, Scrape the surface about this.
Todd: Another podcast, sweetie. Will you explain to the listeners what love bombing is? I
Cathy: think we did a team Zen about it. Yes. I’m not quite sure if we did it on this podcast because we
Todd: talked to, um, our two cult friends and I’m sure we talked about Sarah Nippy from a little bit culty. that was a podcast, but maybe you may want
Cathy: to put that below so people can listen to that podcast with Sarah Nippy.
Cathy: They, um, were former NXIVM members. And for those of you who saw The Vow on HBO, that was a podcast. They are two of the people who came out and kind of blew the whistle and started the process of unraveling NXIVM and their leader Keith Ranieri is now in prison also. But I think we started [00:15:00] talking about the, um, aspects of what a cult is.
Cathy: Looks like or what a cult leader looks like and love bombing is often one of them.
Todd: So just so you know, we did a podcast called a little bit culty, a conversation with, uh, Sarah and Nippy, um, and it’s podcast 675, but I will put it in the show.
Cathy: Yeah. It’s just so people can scroll down and listen because hearing their story and, and their podcast is called a little bit culty and I listen every week.
Cathy: I love it. So. What Todd is talking about is what he just said is this is something we need to talk to our kids about and we can talk to it in a very, very formal way. Like this is what love bombing is, but I also like to make sure that it’s a wider perspective, which is we always need to talk with our kids about critical thinking and we don’t have to use the language critical thinking, but this thing about, you know, just what we were talking about before about my Zen parenting moment.
Cathy: Is that whole process of nuance, discernment, paradox, that is critical thinking. Curiosity is critical thinking. [00:16:00] It’s how am I looking at this? Who’s saying this to me? How do I feel in this moment? It’s taking into account a lot of different things. And holding a lot of different pieces at once, which is a practice because not everybody can do that.
Cathy: Well, we, again, we in our society like to be very black and white. We like to be like, it’s good. It’s bad. He loves me. He doesn’t. She, she cares for me. She doesn’t care for me. And we don’t have that sense of many people need to practice this. So what love bombing is, is. Somebody who, um, I’ll just give you the cycle.
Cathy: Cause there is a cycle of love bombing. It starts with an idealization. Let me say that word again, cause I messed it up. Idealization. So idealization is where somebody comes on really strong and they think you are like the most amazing person and the most beautiful person. And they’ve never met anybody like you.
Cathy: And they build this like comfort where you’re like, wow, this person is seeing me. Now, why is this effective? [00:17:00] Why is someone coming on so strong effective? Because just like the woman that you’re talking about at the brunch, part of the reason that this person that she ended up being with, who did abuse her, was so effective is she was, I think, raising her son on her own.
Cathy: Mm hmm. She didn’t have someone that she was, you know, sharing her life with. She
Todd: had a need.
Cathy: And it felt magical and amazing. And she finally felt seen. What does every human being want to be seen, heard, and valued? Doesn’t matter who you are. Doesn’t matter your gender, your race, anything. This is something that people want.
Cathy: And so when someone comes in and knows that, they know this is how you get to human beings, is you just, You just give them all of that. I see you. I hear you. I value you. You’re amazing. That is an idealization phase. Now, Todd, you asked me.
Todd: Yeah. On the way to Galena, I said, what’s the difference between love bombing and somebody falling in
Cathy: love,
Todd: falling in love.
Todd: Like if, [00:18:00] if, if it was love at first sight between you and I, and I was, I’m, I don’t think my biggest strength is. I think I’m getting better at it as I get older. I’m guessing I was probably pretty bad at it when I was in my twenties, when I met you. Um, but let’s just say I was into that and I read you poetry and I gave you flowers.
Todd: Like, what if that was the way that I chose? Like, how do you discern? Between a person loving another person out of the gates and somebody who’s being is love bombing somebody.
Cathy: And this is, this is difficult. This is messy. I don’t have final answers for you, but what I can tell you is this is something again with critical thinking, part of critical thinking is also trusting our intuition.
Cathy: Okay, how do you feel in the presence of this person? Does it feel suffocating? Does it feel freeing? Do you feel seen or do you feel like someone’s trying to get you? You know what I mean? They’re trying to win you.
Todd: I think it would be really hard to discern between [00:19:00] the, the love bomber and some, and like, let’s say I was doing that when you and I met when we were in our twenties.
Todd: I think The receiver, it’s really hard to discern between those two things. Well,
Cathy: it can be, I mean, yes, like this whole conversation is about nuance, you know, and so of course it can be difficult and it can be messy, but I think one thing that can be really important and, and again, this may not happen immediately, but But is when you do start to state your healthy boundaries and again, boundaries is a big part of, you know, this whole process of nuance and discernment and everything is having your own boundaries that you’ve established.
Cathy: If you start to state these boundaries and this person pushes through these boundaries. That’s a good sign that you are not really being cared for. You are being controlled. Okay. Because if say you’re in, you know, you and I are getting together and you’re just like reading me poetry and you love me. And you’re just like, I want to be with you all the time.
Cathy: And I’m like, listen, I’m going to be with my friends this [00:20:00] weekend. So I can’t see you. And you’re like, that’s not okay. I need to be with you. That would feel suffocating. If you said, of course you should be with your friends. I want you to be happy. I want you to be with your friends, but then can I see you on Sunday?
Cathy: Absolutely. So. You are allowing, if that’s the right word, you are recognizing my boundaries and that you’re not trying to plow through them and gain control of my life.
Todd: Well, I just want to read the definition that I found to create intense emotional attachment and dependency through overwhelming displays of affection, attention, and validation.
Todd: While it appears genuine, it’s actually a tool for control.
Cathy: Correct. And so let’s get back to what you said, though, about at the very beginning, it can be difficult to know. And that is why we do need to have some boundaries. Because if we dive in head first, without any curiosity or questioning, or developing our own sense of, like, listening to our intuition.
Cathy: Because, like I said, Sometimes you can meet someone who says amazing things where they’re like, you are, this could be romantic or just work related. It [00:21:00] doesn’t always have to be romantic, but where someone is saying really nice things to you and you’re like, thank you. And then there’s sometimes where people are like, Oh my God, you’re the most amazing.
Cathy: And then, and you’re kind of like, okay, like it feels wrong. And the, and the words may be the same. But the energy is different and you can feel it.
Todd: Okay. Well, and if somebody’s like, I love you on day six of the relationship, like that’s messed up. It can be, I mean, I think most of the time it’s not, not all, but most of the time they’d be messed up.
Todd: I think
Cathy: it can be messed up in that. Like they can be, remember the whole, like, um, um, What was it called? I wanted to say Selling Sunset because that’s what the girls watch. Um, the Ethan Hawke, Julie Delphi movies. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay.
Todd: Yeah. Before Sunrise. Before Sunset.
Cathy: Before Sunset. After Sunset. Whatever.
Cathy: There were three of them. Yeah. The first one, I would think they spent, I think, three or four days together walking around Europe. I can’t remember. Not even.
Todd: I think it was just like a night or two.
Cathy: Was it just a night or two? Yeah. Yeah. I would think if they [00:22:00] reflected back on that time, they would probably say, I was falling in love with this person.
Cathy: But they did not in that time together say, I love you. Right. Because it, it didn’t, it wasn’t appropriate. They weren’t going to be together at that moment. They had to separate. But in hindsight, they may say, Wow, I was really falling in love with this person that there’s, so it’s like, this is why, again, you have to practice the, the, you know, the gray area is, there are some people who do fall in love quickly, but do you then say, I love you, you’re mine.
Cathy: We’re a couple. Or are you like, huh, this is an interesting feeling I’ve never had before. And, and the boundary is, let’s take this slow and see how this goes versus your. I now own you.
Todd: Well, and if we can have these conversations with our kids when it’s age appropriate, so that like, and
Cathy: even when it’s, and I was gonna say, even when it’s not age appropriate, I don’t mean when it’s not, but we can have these discussions about discernment.
Todd: And if we can, uh, [00:23:00] if we can plant a seed that this is something that exists, I didn’t know this existed before. Like you started talking about it. doing all these cult documentaries that you love so much. I’m like, what is this? And maybe I observed it without giving it a label, but I think the fact that maybe we can have this conversation so that our sons and daughters and children are aware that this is a thing.
Todd: And that we are, I
Cathy: mean, this is something that we need to talk about, but I know plenty of people our age who have these situations. I have had these situations. So, and remember, you know, And obviously, love bombing is part of a cult, but a cult of one is an emotionally abusive relationship or a physically abusive relationship.
Cathy: Like the someone who is abusing you emotionally, physically, otherwise, is somebody who who is using cultish tactics to keep you with them. They are doing something to manipulate you. So let me finish this cycle of love bombing. The first is idealization. I could go on for a [00:24:00] week, months. It, it depends on the person.
Cathy: The next stage of love bombing is devaluing, where they start to, you’ve been like held up on a pedestal. You’ve been taken to fancy restaurants. You’ve been, someone’s been bringing you flowers and all of a sudden you start to notice the flowers aren’t coming.
Todd: So what’s interesting about that is that’s also a natural stage of any mature relationship too.
Todd: Like there’s a honeymoon period for all of us, right?
Cathy: Well, yeah, but this is a little more than that. I understand.
Todd: I’m just saying that we in regular relationship also have that. Like when we’re together, First starting, you know, we first got married. I probably was a little more discerning and showing you all the different sides of me.
Cathy: Right. Okay. But let me, the reason why I don’t want you to go too far with that is because I’m not done talking about devaluing because I’m not talking about evening out. I’m talking about where it goes the other way, where you start to hear criticisms. You start to hear like, you know, it’s not love bombing.
Cathy: If somebody brings you flowers [00:25:00] for a while and then you guys start to get comfortable with each other and the don’t show up anymore. It’s because They’re not needed. You know, you’re, you’ve already had that courtship part and you start to like even out devaluing that stage is where not only do the flowers stop showing up, but there’s, there’s criticisms, there’s put downs, there’s maybe gaslighting and verbal harassment.
Cathy: There’s like a, and then what that causes in the person who was initially idealized is what did I do wrong? So. The part what they know they’re doing, somebody who’s love bombing is they’re manipulating you to think their behavior is changing because you’re not doing something right. You, because you didn’t do that, I, I’m going to criticize you now.
Cathy: And you’re like, well, they used to idealize me. They used to take care of me and take me places. So I must have done something wrong. If their behavior is changing, it’s because I did something. So do you see how you’re already in the web? Yeah. Cause you’re already questioning yourself. Yeah. You know, and they may be cruel.
Cathy: Um, you know, they may do put downs, cruelty. [00:26:00] And then, then you’ll say, maybe you’ll, you’ll decide to put up a boundary and you’ll say, you know, what you said to me yesterday was so cruel and painful. And they’ll say, Oh, I didn’t say that. That’s not what I meant. I mean, we are literally watching, re watching The Haunting of Bly Manor right now.
Cathy: Mike, Mike Flanagan’s um, show that I don’t know if any of you have seen it, but you know, it’s spooky season. So we’re watching a spooky show, but there is a relationship in Bly Manor between these two people where this guy is a total love bomber and he says awful things to her. And then when she comes and says, I don’t want you to say that anymore.
Cathy: He’s like, oh no, no, no, no. That’s not what I meant. That’s not what I said. And it’s not overt gaslighting where it’s so overpowering where he’s like, no, you didn’t hear that. Like the gaslighting even has versions, right? Like, instead of just saying, he’s not saying I didn’t say that, but he said, oh, you misunderstood what I said.
Cathy: You’re the one seeing it wrong. I may have said those words, but you’re interpreting it wrong. So in other
Todd: words, the person who is doing the love bombing is not. Taking any responsibility [00:27:00] for anything. If there’s something’s off, it’s always blaming the other person.
Cathy: You misunderstood my words. Honestly, that’s going on right now in the news as far as things that certain people are saying when they’re doing rallies and then people say, Oh no, no, no, that’s not what that person meant at all.
Cathy: And it’s like, please, we can hear it. We can see it. Like it’s so, it’s so, um, what’s the word I’m looking for? Uh, like the fact that you don’t value. What other people are experiencing and you’re telling them they’re not seeing it. It’s the definition of gaslighting. What you just heard and saw, no, that’s not what it was.
Cathy: So, devaluing is the next stage. And then, There’s discarding where I’m done with you. I’m done with you. I’m getting rid of you and they, now when I say that they get rid of you with the intention that they’re going to pull you back in, but not quite yet. Okay. So again, this is a cycle of love bombing. This is a cycle.
Cathy: So the discarding is I [00:28:00] can’t take you anymore. I used to idealize you. I used to think you were amazing. Then I started to see all these cracks and now I’m done. Okay. So the person who was initially idealized may be like, what did I do? How do I get that person back? Why? And, and these things that maybe the abuser or the love bomber is asking them to do, like, well, I want you to, um, you know, stay at my house all the time, or I want you to not go out with your friends anymore.
Cathy: The person is then more willing to do that. Because they’re like, I don’t want to lose this person. I want to get them back.
Todd: Well, and in some cases it goes from discarding to absolute control.
Cathy: Correct.
Todd: Absolute and total control.
Cathy: Right.
Todd: That sometimes leads to. Abuse.
Cathy: Right. The, the, the discarding is an important part of the process though, because that’s always the threat.
Cathy: Yeah. They may not literally discard, but there’s a threat of discarding, which is what keeps that other person in check. Yeah. I should just go be with my ex wife instead of you. What I was doing [00:29:00] before was so much better than you. I might move and you’ll never see me again. That is a discarding. That’s not just a devaluing.
Cathy: That’s like, I could do better without you. And then all of a sudden you can visualize it. The person is basically hanging onto the person’s ankle saying, don’t leave me. So they went initially from being idealized. And now all of a sudden they’re scared of losing this person. And then what can end up happening, if they do end up doing it.
Cathy: breaking up is the this love bomber may hover for a while and stick around and kind of pull the person in and out and never really stop following them or trying to get them in. Like it’s a cycle. And then they’ll idealize them again. Yeah. And then they’ll devalue them again. And then so. these, these love bombing cycles.
Cathy: And again, there’s abuse cycles. There’s all sorts, but this is the kind of thing, if you are noticing this, even in your own relationships or with your children, it’s not that you’re going to say to a 10 year old, beware of love bombing. You’re not going to do that. You’re going to talk about things like, is someone listening to your [00:30:00] boundaries too?
Cathy: Or are they just saying that their boundaries are the most important? Does it feel good when you’re around this person or do you feel a little like, Ooh, overwhelmed and scared? Um, you know, does it feel, and again, here’s what gets difficult. There’s like layers on layers here because a lot of times if someone has already been harmed by people, they sometimes assume they wear, I, again, I always talk about glasses.
Cathy: They wear the glasses of someone who has been harmed. So the way that they look at the world is people are trying to harm me. And they may assume that every single person who wants to be kind to them is then trying to get control of them or love bombing them. And that’s not always the case, but because their body is still holding the trauma and their mind is still on a defensive mode.
Cathy: They are too extreme in believing that everybody is out to get them or control them. Cause there’s plenty of people I speak to, excuse me, who also, if it be in their dating life or in [00:31:00] their work world or whatever, where there be like, or even with their own kids, my kids are trying to manipulate me. My kids are trying to take advantage of me.
Cathy: My partner is trying to manipulate me when maybe they’re just trying to have a conversation. Yeah. You know, that’s not manipulation. So this is a very talk about nuance. You can’t, this is something that does need to be talked about, but it’s not cut and dry because it depends on the person experiencing it.
Todd: It’s so interesting. Cause I just, you know, put into my Google, you know, like, how would you teach this to a 10 year old? And, you know, they talk about explaining affection and a healthy relationship. Like what is a healthy relationship? You feel
Cathy: free. You feel good.
Todd: Introduce what love bombing is in simple terms.
Todd: Like, um, when somebody gives you too much love too quickly, you could just say that, like, if it seems really quick, overwhelming, overwhelming,
Cathy: where you feel like you can’t give back what you’re getting, because those are the experiences I’ve had where people have been so overly affectionate and loving that I’m like, I can’t keep up with this because not only does this feel like too much, but I can’t give it back.
Cathy: So we’re [00:32:00] not. Balanced. Yeah.
Todd: Uh, you could teach the signs too much praise over the top gifts, pushings to be the best friends fast. Like it’s interesting. I’m just picturing two fifth graders like, Oh, let’s be best friends. Like, Whoa, whoa, wait a second. We just, and there’s something sweet about that too.
Todd: Like, you know, you think of, you know, somebody who, you know, two kids who are having a hard time with friendship and all of them, they find themselves being fast friends. Like that’s beautiful. And also could be a little intoxicated.
Cathy: It depends on. Who is there a control situation? Is there an over idealization of one person?
Cathy: Is there one person who’s manipulated, like who’s telling the other what to do all the time? Like, and let me say this, a lot of this. At that age, like Todd said, it can be sweet or normalized. It can be developmentally typical. And so what you have to remember is that’s the perfect example to start talking about it.
Cathy: How do you feel when you’re with this person? Does it feel over the top? Does it feel like too much? I definitely had those experiences with friends when I was in elementary [00:33:00] school, where you’re like, ah, I can’t repay this, you know, or people who are like, I’m going to, I’m going to buy this for you. And I’m going to hear, I’ve got another gift for you.
Cathy: And it’s like, Oh, I, I can’t keep up. So. Right then you know that you’re not feeling right and if you have a parent that’s like, I trust your intuition.
Todd: That’s right. You know? That’s to say. If you can get, we have to teach our kids or have conversations with our kids to tune in and to trust themselves, their own intuition.
Cathy: And this is why it starts early. It’s like Todd said. You can. Yeah. Excuse me. You can teach the word love bombing or the words, but really what you want to talk to your kids about really early is that self trust. I mean, Zen Parenting Radio has always been about allowing your kids to trust themselves.
Cathy: When, instead of telling them what to wear, you ask them what they want to wear. Instead of, you know, forcing them to be in certain clubs or sports, you say what feels right to you. That’s how they develop the muscle of trusting what they know. That’s how they develop. And sometimes they choose an outfit [00:34:00] that’s embarrassing and awful.
Cathy: And then they learn from that experience instead of you protecting them from everything. Or they end up having the coolest. Like sense of fashion ever because they were allowed some sense of freedom that is, so all these words that we’re using, you know, intuition, you know, um, boundaries, nuance.
Cathy: Discernment. Critical thinking is probably the big umbrella. And then that allows you, as you get older, to recognize when love bombing is not right. Because let me tell you this, serial love bombers Kind of know who they should love. They
Todd: target. They target. They can sniff them out.
Cathy: They do. They’re like, Ooh, this is going to be pretty easy over here.
Cathy: Yeah. And that doesn’t, we’re all susceptible to it. So it’s not like, you know, so you can’t say to yourself, well, then it’s just them, not me. We all need to be aware of it because we’re all susceptible to all things. Anything that’s human is of us, but There is a sense of [00:35:00] it’s a little easier with certain people because of what their needs or limitations happen to be.
Todd: Yeah. Well, it’s funny, Cathy and I often fall asleep. This is going to sound weird, by the way, to the movie spotlight. We do. And it’s all about the abuse at the hands of some of the people in the Catholic church. And, um, Those priests, at least in that movie, love bombed these kids because they would target these kids who had kind of a broken home.
Todd: Right. So that to your point, like, and you know, this is kind of an extreme example that I’m bringing up, but it is funny how the love bombers can kind of seek out their, their, their audience who, where they might be the most successful.
Cathy: And this is what’s so interesting as we were talking about this today at brunch about like, how is it that there are so many people out there who do manipulate people, who are cult leaders, who, who do like lead up high control groups, who are emotional abusers, and they all use the same playbook.
Cathy: Like, You know, I hear people say [00:36:00] all the time, like, did they all go to school and like learn this? They all
Todd: Google it together and decided to go with a step by step process?
Cathy: Because it feels that way because they all use the same playbook, but really it’s an understanding of human behavior. And it’s a person who usually has narcissistic tendencies, who is lacking empathy and only sees the world through their viewpoint and their needs.
Cathy: And so When, and, and possibly have been treated similarly in their history. So they know how to manipulate people because they know what works and they understand that if they do this, that, and this, then this person will be so. Interested or fall into this situation so easily. And they know people don’t, what’s the thing, you know, I was talking about, what do people want most in life?
Cathy: Seeing heard and valued. What do people fear most to not belong to be excluded? So what you do is you start with, I see here and value you. And then you start to move into devaluing, and then you say, now you don’t belong. I’m pushing you away. And so then people are so fearful that they try to come back.
Todd: [00:37:00] Well, and as we get close to closing down, um, this, this episode, I will say that we probably, I mean, it’s such a spectrum, like the, the abuse by the, the Pre the, of the kids at the hands of the priest is a really extreme example, or that woman I was talking about earlier. But there’s probably a lot more subtle nuanced stuff where I know, sweetie, you’ve been in a relationship, uh, before, uh, me and you experienced that.
Cathy: Yeah. I was definitely in an emotionally abusive
Todd: relationship and all these things, but bombing was a technique that was used, right?
Cathy: Listen, you know, you kind of already said these, but let me break these down. Signs of love, love bombing. Number one, excessive affection. The person showering with you with affection goes above and beyond, right?
Cathy: Anything you want. I’ll drive you anywhere. I’ll take you anywhere. I’ll show up anywhere. Number two, grand gestures. You know, the person sends you gifts, flowers, things. They buy you stuff. Number three, pushing for commitment. I love you. Can we, can it just be you and I, can we make this thing just you and I quickly [00:38:00] paying for everything, which is another form of grand gestures.
Cathy: Um, gifts with stipulations. Such as I, I paid for this. So this means that you’ll come with me tomorrow. They’re already kind of negotiating. Well,
Todd: and, and sorry to interrupt, but like through the lens of dating man and a woman, there’s this old school philosophy. Like if you take a woman out and you pay for dinner, then she’s owed you sexual.
Todd: Experiences or whatever. Right. I
Cathy: took you to dinner and this is what I want. This
Todd: is, this is, this, this is the system that we’re into, which is if I take you out to a movie and feed you, then we have to go back to my place and hook up.
Cathy: Right. Which I think 90 percent of the population wouldn’t say out loud, but some people really believe that’s the case.
Cathy: Something either that they owe or that they’re owed and it’s kind of this unspoken thing. Well,
Todd: it’s the patriarchy. It’s the man box. It’s all that stuff. And
Cathy: women will say, I feel bad. I feel bad. He did all these things and I feel bad. And you know, that’s, that’s lack of boundaries. That’s a belief that you do owe people just [00:39:00] because they do something nice for you.
Cathy: So all the, especially these first three, I had these, I had this exact experience and it wasn’t the only time. Um, but with. I think the experience that our kids will most likely have, hopefully they’re not. In too many experiences with high control groups and cults is emotionally abusive friendships or romantic partnerships.
Cathy: And, you know, these kind of things where someone’s pushing and buying you things and telling you’re the best. This is a, this can be a red flag. This is like a, wait a second. Because I know that the most important red flag is how you feel. If you are initially, you may feel loved. It may feel great, but if you start to feel like I feel uncomfortable or that I do owe somebody something, or that I’m not free, that I’m actually I’m beholden to.
Cathy: Those are signs that you’re like, this isn’t a healthy connection. I
Todd: just asked, uh, the internet of some movie examples of love bombing, some of these movies I’d never heard of. Sleeping
Cathy: with the Enemy.
Todd: [00:40:00] That is one of them for sure. Um, Gone Girl? I don’t know. Oh, for sure. Uh, Talented Mr. Ripley. For sure. Um, and that’s all I got so far.
Todd: It’s
Cathy: funny because those are three movies I watch, Sleeping with the Enemy I don’t watch all the time.
Todd: It’s a creepy
Cathy: movie. You only need to see it once or twice and you’re done. That’s Julia Roberts. Laura! Laura! Um, we should laugh about that, but we’re just talking about rewatchables. Podcasts. They always talk about that movie anyway.
Cathy: Um, but you know, talented, Mr. Ripley, for sure. That is complete manipulation. What Tom would come in, but he would,
Cathy: Laura learns how to swim.
Todd: Oh, she sure does. It jumps off
Cathy: the boat. It’s a good movie, isn’t it? Well, it teaches you something and you then see her post traumatic stress afterwards. The example I gave you, she meets a nice guy. Yeah. And she doesn’t [00:41:00] trust nice guys.
Todd: Hell no.
Cathy: Because she’s like, I, I’m, I’m not doing this again.
Cathy: You know, she touched the hot stove and she’s never doing it again. But really in life, you, you know, but that’s a whole, that’s a side story. That’s a B story. But Tom Ripley in The Talented Mr. Ripley, which is also books, you know, and then Andrew Scott just did another version of Ripley that is supposed to be really good.
Cathy: But his whole thing is he comes in, he finds someone, he doesn’t just idealize them, he becomes them. He, like, wants to mesh with them. And then he starts to You know, create chaos in their life and manipulate everything that’s going on. Um, and then Gone Girl, their whole relationship, it goes back and forth.
Cathy: Yeah. Amy and whatever Ben Affleck’s character is, and that’s a Gillian Flynn book. But anyway, this is, this is just something The thing that was surprising to me is again, because of the things I read, watch, and maybe because I’m a therapist, I thought everyone knew what love bombing was. And Todd’s like, I don’t know what it is.
Cathy: And my [00:42:00] sister and Drew were like, I don’t know what it is. And Team Zen. That’s
Todd: Sweetie’s blind spot. It is.
Cathy: It’s a huge blind spot. And I’m so glad Todd reminds me. Not love bombing, but Sweetie’s
Todd: got a bazillion books that she’s read. So these are, this is part of who you are. It’s And most of us are not reading all these books or investigating their experience in the same way you are.
Todd: So,
Cathy: and maybe we haven’t found language for it. So part of my
Todd: job is always to remind you that I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.
Cathy: And I’ll say, Todd, everybody already knows that one. And he’ll go, no, they don’t. They don’t know that. And I’m like, Oh, because I don’t want to be redundant. I don’t want to be like talking about the same thing all the time.
Todd: You want to be lady redundant, lady
Cathy: redundant woman. Um, I don’t. So anyway, that is love bombing my friend.
Todd: Um, so ZenCon 25, it’s the conference for conversations and connections with a concert to boot. It’s a lot of cons.
Cathy: First of all, it’s our last conference. You need to get your tickets and just come.
Cathy: Quit thinking [00:43:00] about it. Quit being on the fence. Call your friends, say let’s meet in, uh, it’s actually in Oakbrook, Illinois, outside of Chicago, like 10 miles outside. There’s not
Todd: much going on in January anyways. January’s
Cathy: boring. Come to see Toad the Wets Bracket or lead singer Toad the Wets Bracket sing.
Cathy: Come hear about things like this, like how to talk to your, your kids about, you know, Everything.
Todd: Sweetie’s going to be talking about restoring our girls. John Duffy’s going to be talking about rescuing our sons. Dr. Solomon is going to talk about conflict and the value of conflict and how to do conflict better.
Todd: And it’s going to be a party. We’re going to have a little concert. We’re going to have drinks and it’s going to be fun.
Cathy: Yes. And we learn so much and it’s very warm and connective and recharge
Todd: your parenting battery.
Cathy: That’s right. Come see us. And cause this is our last live event. So come see us. So if you’ve been listening a long time,
Todd: it’s your last chance.
Cathy: This is it. Babies.
Todd: Okay, everybody. I want everybody to keep trucking and just say thank you for listening. And,
Cathy: and everything we talked about today, I write about all this in Restoring Our Girls. I have a whole section on emotional abuse, cult, influence, high [00:44:00] control groups, love bombing, manipulation, discernment.
Cathy: I mean, it’s all in the book. So go get it. Yeah.
Todd: Keep trucking, everybody.
Round two. Change a little bit. And change a little bit. Pretty pleasant.
