Cathy & Todd explore anxiety spirals sharing personal experiences and strategies for managing anxiety, including mindfulness, grounding techniques, self-soothing methods, and healthy distractions.

For the full show notes, visit zenparentingradio.com.

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Time Stamps

(00:03:15) What we’re talking about

(00:09:45) What is an anxiety spiral? 

(00:32:20) First steps *

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Blog Post

Navigating Anxiety Spirals: Insights from Zen Parenting Radio

Welcome back to Zen Parenting Radio, where hosts Todd and Cathy share insights and personal experiences to help you navigate the often overwhelming journey of parenting. In this episode, they delve into the topic of anxiety spirals—a subject that resonates with many in today’s fast-paced world.

Understanding Anxiety Spirals

Anxiety spirals occur when anxious thoughts escalate, leaving you feeling overwhelmed and unable to cope. Cathy’s personal experience with anxiety spirals highlights their prevalence and the challenges in recognizing them. These spirals often start with a single anxious thought that triggers a cascade of related worries, leading to a scenario where you might wrongly believe the worst-case scenario is inevitable.

Identifying Triggers

Todd and Cathy discuss various triggers for anxiety spirals. For Cathy, high-stress periods like election seasons or potential natural disasters, such as hurricanes, can be catalysts. Todd shares that for him, the buildup of everyday pressures can trigger a spiral, especially when compounded by significant concerns like family health or financial insecurity.

Recognizing Symptoms

Recognizing when you’re in a spiral is crucial. Todd points out that symptoms can include a racing heart, shallow breathing, and sweaty palms. These are physiological responses driven by heightened anxiety levels. Cathy’s introspection reveals how specific personal fears, such as those related to family health history, can intensify these feelings.

Tools to Navigate Anxiety

  1. Grounding Techniques: Cathy and Todd emphasize the importance of using grounding techniques to combat spirals. The “5-4-3-2-1” method—identifying five things you can see, four things you can touch, three things you can hear, two things you can smell, and one thing you can taste—can help bring you back to the present moment.
  2. Mindful Breathing and Self-Soothing: Practicing mindful breathing can calm your nervous system. Self-soothing techniques such as cuddling with a loved one or even a stuffed animal can release oxytocin, promoting feelings of safety and comfort.
  3. Challenge Your Thoughts: Cathy suggests questioning your anxious thoughts. Ask yourself, “Is this true?” or “Has this happened yet?” Evaluating the reality of your fears can help reduce catastrophic thinking.

How to Support Others

For parents, dealing with their child’s anxiety spiral can be challenging. Cathy and Todd remind us to bring calm to these situations. Your tranquility can be contagious. They suggest practicing regulating your own emotions first to better support your child through their struggles.

Healthy Distractions

Sometimes, a bit of distraction can be healthy. Cathy advocates for humor as a way to shift focus. Watching a funny video or engaging in a light-hearted activity can offer temporary relief. Movement, like physical exercise or even a simple walk, can help discharge pent-up anxiety, similar to how animals shake off stress.

Maintaining Long-Term Balance

Preventing future spirals requires ongoing self-care. Good sleep, a balanced diet, and regular exercise can help maintain mental and emotional stability. Building a calmer environment and seeking professional support, like therapy, can also provide tools for managing anxiety.

Conclusion

Anxiety spirals are a natural part of life, but understanding and addressing them can mitigate their impact. Cathy and Todd remind us that it’s vital to approach these challenges with compassion—for ourselves and others. By developing awareness and using practical strategies, we can navigate through anxiety spirals more gracefully.

Transcript

[00:00:00]

Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is episode number 786, while listening to Zen Parenting Radio, to help you feel outstanding. And always remember our motto, which is that the best predictor of a child’s well being is that parents self understanding.

Todd: Uh, ZenCon 25. Registration tickets are available. It’s going to be up the hook Oakbrook, Illinois, January 24th and 25th. And Cathy and I are going to be up there on stage along with Dr. John Duffy, Dr. Alexander Solomon, uh, the guy from Toad the Wits Brocket, Glenn Phillips. The guy,

Cathy: the lead singer,

Todd: the lead singer,

Cathy: the guy,

Todd: the man,

Cathy: do you know that they were just [00:01:00] here in Evanston?

Cathy: I think I did see that you were gone, so we did not go together, but I would have gone if you were home. I know. I’m telling you, I, they’re the truth, the truest story. Is that I, um, was like, I don’t know, a couple of years ago, Todd and I were talking and we were in Vegas when we were talking about this. We just got home from Vegas.

Cathy: Um, but we, Todd said, what band is your favorite band or what, you know, band do you want to see in concert? And I came up with a few bands, but told the Wetzel Bracket was one of them. And I realized I hadn’t seen them in concert. So went on their website and I registered. And So I could get information if they ever went on concert, went, went on concert, went on tour.

Cathy: And then all of a sudden, I mean, cut to, cut to, cut to this year and he’s coming to our conference. So it’s pretty dang cool for me. Um, and I hope it is for all of you other 90s, 90s kids. I’m an [00:02:00] 80s kid. Can we be like a 70s, 80s and 90s kid? Sure. Why not? Because we grew up in the 70s, right? Zero to 10. Then we were like in high school and everything in the 80s.

Cathy: And then we were in late college 20s in the 90s. So we were growing up for all those decades, right?

Todd: Is this Toad? This is Toad.

Cathy: Yeah.

Todd: You know the name of the song?

Cathy: Yes. Um, Something’s always wrong.

Todd: Um, So, if you want to know more about the Zenkai 25, just scroll down on the show notes of this podcast and you’ll learn more.

Todd: And get your tickets,

Cathy: and come, because it’s our last one. That’s, Todd’s not saying that part.

Todd: Farewell conference.

Cathy: So if you want to come to a Zen parenting conference, this is the one, get your friends, meet them there. It’s at an awesome hotel. There’s, you know, in Oak Brook, a lot, plenty to do, um, on top of the conference.

Cathy: We’re going to be

Todd: launching your new book

Cathy: and my new book. [00:03:00] Yes. Restoring our

Todd: girls.

Cathy: Correct. Much coming in that area.

Todd: Uh, Dr. John Duffy rescuing our sons, Dr. Solomon talking about

Cathy: healthy

Todd: conflict, healthy conflict amongst many other things. So it’s going to be up the hook. So hopefully you join us. Um, we got in from Vegas late last night.

Todd: Um, I said, Cathy, we need something for the show. And you said, I’ll come up with something and I haven’t asked you anything. So I don’t know what we’re talking about. We’re

Cathy: talking about anxiety spirals.

Todd: Anxiety spirals. Yeah. Can you relate to that?

Cathy: Yes. Um, I can, I experienced them myself. I’m very conscious of when it’s happening.

Cathy: And I also feel like a lot of people right now are having anxiety spirals for several reasons. Number one, we’re just back in the flow of. Fall and school and work. I mean, I know we’ve been doing this since the end of August, but now everything’s like in full speed. Right. And plus, uh, the election, I think the election is having people feel, um, it’s creating an anxiety [00:04:00] that I, I don’t know about everybody else, but it’s causing.

Cathy: In the summer, once there was a candidate change and things started moving in a certain direction, I was like, okay, I’m just going to enjoy this, right? This is just, things seem really good. And, and it’s not that I’m going to put a pin in the whole thing, but I’m not going to worry about it for a while.

Cathy: Like I’m just going to enjoy this You know, the shifting and the changing and the growing. And now we are. It’s gut check time. Whoo. Um, and so if you put that the election anxiety on top of regular anxiety of raising kids and work and expectations and fall and, um, hurricanes and, um, other global disasters, wars, um, There’s a lot to think about.

Cathy: So we tend to go into spirals. Did you have

Todd: an anxiety spiral last night as we were landing on, on the ground from the airplane?

Cathy: No, I wouldn’t say I had a spiral. I’d say that when things are really, really bumpy in an airplane, I just don’t like it. And [00:05:00] I just want someone to tell me why it’s bumpy. And I just.

Cathy: And what did I say? I don’t even remember what I said. You say things like. It’s just that way. You say very basic things

Todd: to

Cathy: me.

Todd: You’re like, I think I said it is. I think I said it’s totally normal.

Cathy: Yeah. You, you always say that it’s, and I can, I’m not like, I’m not like always nervous on a plane, but sometimes the, the turbulence is, Insane to me.

Cathy: Todd will say I’m used to it. Todd travels all the time for work. So I travel mostly for, you know, family trips and that kind of thing. So not quite as much as Todd does. And he just doesn’t get nervous about anything on a plane.

Todd: Yeah. And, um, I think it’s because I know the math and my mathematical logical brain says it’s probably the safest place I could be right now is on an airplane.

Cathy: I know, I know this. And I also know that I try and think about, especially, uh, you know, cause we, [00:06:00] when we’re landing, you’re like going through clouds, you’re getting closer to the ground. So there’s a little more shakiness, but that the whole landing operation is basically computerized. Like, it’s not like someone’s like really touching down.

Cathy: Right. I don’t want to speak for pilots here. I don’t know if I’m right here, but I feel like there’s a whole. Like, for example, I read two weeks ago that this woman was on a plane with her husband. He was the pilot. He passed out and she was able to land the plane with help from, you know, some other party that knew she was coming in.

Cathy: And the fact that a person who’s not a pilot could land a plane tells me that, that there’s just, it’s not just about your own personal precision.

Todd: Uh, well, there’s so many different places I can go. Uh, I think of Captain, what’s his name? No, no,

Cathy: Sully Sullenberger

Todd: from airplane. Uh, what was the name of the, the guy who ended up landing the plane?

Cathy: George zip?

Todd: No, [00:07:00] I don’t know. And I want to find, and I have Matt Damon right now on my YouTube feed for, um,

Cathy: Carol.

Todd: Yeah. From 30 Rock. Yeah. I hope

Cathy: people know what we’re talking about. We’re like throwing out a bunch of names here. Well, uh, people should know what airplane it’s.

Todd: But do

Cathy: people know who George Zip is?

Todd: Uh, if they know airplane very well, but anyways, I can’t find the Mr. Bumpy Landing scene cause that’s what I want to play. But anyways, um, okay. So anxiety. And

Cathy: good luck pushing.

Todd: Take off. Take

Cathy: off. Autopilot. Then landing. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So anyway, I don’t want to make light of, I think a pilot’s job is very serious and very difficult and a lot of training.

Cathy: So I’m not making light of that, but I’m trying to think to myself, there must, um, that, that everyone knows what they’re doing. Right, Todd. And you know what the flight staff is always so. Kind and nice. And whenever I get on the plane and they’re like, hi, I’m like, oh, we’re going to be okay. Everybody’s so nice.

Cathy: And you like

Todd: it when the pilot talks to you to tell you what’s happening.

Cathy: Yeah. [00:08:00] Don’t, don’t go into bumpy ville and then not say anything to us about what’s going on.

Todd: If they say it’s going to be bumpy, you feel better than if they don’t say it and it’s bumpy. Yeah.

Cathy: Well, they’re like, we’re going into turbulence.

Cathy: So just so you know, but if they say nothing, then I’m like, maybe they’re caught off guard. Hey, and on this trip, we also, Weirdly ran into, um, people who listened to the show.

Yeah.

Cathy: Um, and Todd and I, because we are a podcast and we just don’t, we’re not on TV or anything, people don’t usually know that they know us because it’s a podcast.

Cathy: Yeah. But. Somebody who has been listening to the show since like day one, um, recognize Todd and I don’t

Todd: think he’d mind if we said his name. Yes. It was named Steve, Steve from Idaho and his son’s name is Soren. And Steve, um, wrote us a long email like 10 years ago about how our podcast helped him navigate, uh, an interesting, uh, direction that his son was going.

Todd: He’s someone to be a dancer. [00:09:00] But he didn’t really quite know, and Steve didn’t quite know how to support him because of the, the man box culture. And

Cathy: I don’t even know if it was about that, Todd, I think it was more about the class, like that, remember Soren wasn’t going to go and then he, he didn’t push him, he, it was listen, he just like, and then when Soren ended up going on his own, then he kind of made that decision from his own heart.

Cathy: If I remember correctly, I mean, it’s been 10 years, but I don’t know if it About him going into ballet as it was about him doing the difficult steps to get into it. I think it

Todd: was multi layered. I’m, I’m almost positive. There was some man box stuff in there, but

Cathy: well, by the way, he’s an amazing, um, ballet dancer now, like a premier ballet dancer.

Cathy: So it all worked out, but it was kind of cool. Like that is one thing to meet and that’s why we like doing the conference too. Cause we meet people who listen to the show,

Todd: which is fun. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so where do you want to start with anxiety?

Cathy: So let’s just talk about what an anxiety spiral is. Um, you know, it’s basically when [00:10:00] your anxious thoughts, they kind of escalate out of control.

Cathy: You’re, you’re left feeling overwhelmed, like you can’t cope. And it usually starts with like, One anxious thought that then triggers a bunch of other thoughts. Then you end up catastrophizing and basically believing like the worst case scenario is going to happen. I tend to have this

Todd: snowball. It is.

Cathy: It’s a snowball effect.

Cathy: And I tend to have this, um, ability, I guess,

Todd: to, we all do some people, it comes a little bit easier to others.

Cathy: Yeah. Like, I think that, and it’s funny, cause I can notice what’s happening. Um, In that, in my thinking, but it’s very hard to get out of the spiral for this reason. We talked about this, um, last week a little bit about feeling versus thought.

Cathy: And I can know in my thoughts, I’m spiraling, spiraling right now. I am spiraling out of control, but my feelings are, I need to deal with this. I need to, I need to, This is real. This is true. Like my feelings tell [00:11:00] me that I should be spiraling out of control. And so there is a difference between recognizing what you’re doing and then also at the same time recognizing that your feelings in that moment may, it’s not that they’re lying to you per se, but they may be misinformed about what needs to be done in that moment.

Todd: So, um, last week you had, we all had, but you had a little extra stress regarding the hurricane. Yes, I did. Because we have friends and family that live in Florida.

Mm

Cathy: hmm.

Todd: Would, would you say that there was any spiraling going on for you for that or no?

Cathy: Well, I definitely had spiraling moments. Like there’s a difference, I think, and again, you know, we’ll kind of pull these apart because I know you could probably think of a bunch of different times living with me where I’m anxious about something.

Cathy: Mm hmm. Yeah. It’s one thing to be worried about something and being paying, like, paying attention to it. Like, I’m reading about this. I’m wondering if this hurricane will turn. Um, I’m wondering, is everyone that I know okay? Is there a plan? You know, [00:12:00] there’s That basic, that’s not me spiraling out of control.

Cathy: That’s me trying to get information when though, maybe I wake up and then I’m thinking about it and then I’m getting afraid and then I start to like text people and say, Oh my gosh, is this person okay? Or did you hear this? And then I’m like moving from one anxious thought to the next anxious thought and maybe projecting my anxious thoughts onto other people.

Cathy: That’s a spiral for me.

Yeah.

Cathy: Um, so. We don’t want to call any kind of anxiety that we feel a spiral necessarily. I think people kind of know that spiral down where you start to catastrophize, where you’re, where you can’t, your feelings are not allowing you to pull out. It’s like, you’re kind of, you know, talk about plane crashes or whatever.

Cathy: Like, You’re like, you’re, you’re basically going straight down and you’re not stopping it. You’re just, you keep going. Um, and basically what happens to your body, what’s happening is like, you, you know, you, you remember the fear center is called the amygdala. And when you’re in that spiral, [00:13:00] The amygdala is sending signals to the body and it starts pumping out those stress hormones, you know, adrenaline, cortisol, everything, and your fight or flight kicks in.

Cathy: And then that sends a message back to the brain that we are in danger,

right?

Cathy: And we feel like we’re in danger. So then our heart races, maybe our hands sweat, we have difficulty taking a deep breath. So it’s like the system that is created in our bodies, which is amazing because it’s there to keep us safe, but an anxiety spiral.

Cathy: It’s not a real thing that’s happening. It’s our worry about what could happen, but once it starts, it starts to say, send signals to the rest of our body that we are indeed in danger. And so it’s hard to get out of. It’s very loopy.

Todd: Well, I just, uh, just for fun, I just Googled like, you know, what are some ways to get out of an anxiety spiral?

Todd: Now, what’s interesting is, um, most of the time. The anxiety spiral, we don’t even know we’re in it. Would you [00:14:00] be, would you agree with that?

Cathy: Yeah, I think like, I was just saying that I can kind of tell, um, I think the difference is, okay, so yes, there’s definitely people who don’t know they’re in it. They really think they’re trying to survive.

Cathy: But again, I really want to differentiate. It’s the feelings that are so uncomfortable that we’re trying to rid ourselves of. Like we may say, Oh, I don’t want to go into this anxiety spiral. Like we don’t, it’s not a something we want to do, but we’re feeling so much intense pressure or fear that And once that gets triggered, it’s very hard to loop.

Todd: One is there probably some value to name entertainment. The fact that like, Oh my gosh, I’m spiraling right now. That’s probably the very first step in trying to come out of the spiral is knowing that you’re in it.

Cathy: Right. And you know what? I know you just looked up something, but before we, like, I want to talk about what triggers it, the impact.

Cathy: And we’ll get to

Todd: this afterwards.

Cathy: Yeah. Because I do want to talk about what you looked up. Um,

Todd: holding,

Cathy: holding, hold, hold for me. I don’t know why, but sometimes when we talk, I need a Kleenex. Okay. [00:15:00] So what triggers like, so Todd, you know, we’re talking about me, but you have had anxiety spirals as well. So what for you, so Lots of different things can trigger them.

Cathy: Sometimes it’s a big event, a trauma, a loss, a life stressor. And sometimes though, it’s just the buildup of everyday pressure. It’s not, you know, like there may not be an election. There, there isn’t a health concern, you know, nothing really big has happened, but you’ve had day upon day upon day. of having a lot of little stresses that eventually builds up.

Cathy: And, you know, so a person who is at a baseline level of high stress may find themselves completely overwhelmed and in an anxiety spiral after something very small happens, you know what I mean? Um, so what, what triggers it for you?

Todd: Um, Just kind of what you just said, when things stack up and I have, you know, like today I’m, I’m not in anxiety spiral, but I have a lot of things that I need to do today [00:16:00] and not much room to breathe and to chill out.

Todd: And, you know, you might be able to take a nap this afternoon. That’s not, that’s not in my, that’s not in my plan today because I have all these other obligation. So it’s usually that one thing and it’s usually, I’m okay with being overwhelmed with things I want to do. It’s being overwhelmed with things I don’t want to do.

Todd: Like, and you know, if one of those things is, Oh, I have to travel for work and I’m going to be gone all four days this week. That, that sucks. Um, I try to, Create my life in alignment to that. Most of the things are things that I want to do versus things that I feel like I need to or have to do. Um, I remember one time, this is, I think a few years ago, uh, my dad came over and he told me the next day that he was throwing up.

Todd: And my dad has a really kind of good constitution, like it’s got constitution. And then I think I had, COVID.

Cathy: Yeah. You found out you had COVID.

Todd: So I was [00:17:00] worried that I gave my dad COVID and my, I, I don’t know, fear spiral, anxiety spiral. I don’t know what it was, but I started spiraling really kind of, you know, struggling.

Todd: And I think at that moment you were overwhelmed with something. So, um, I ended up calling my buddy Frank, who’s one of my best friends. And I said, listen, I just don’t know. I don’t want you to fix it. I don’t want you to do anything. Just listen. And I just kind of like told him all my worries and how mad I was at myself for even letting my dad come over because I thought I might have COVID, but I let him come over anyways.

Todd: And he just held the space for that. So that was the one thing that I did. Uh, but most of my anxiety comes from money, shadow, financial insecurity stuff.

Cathy: So two thoughts in from the stories you just told. Number one, the sometimes what’s helpful, um, when I am having my own anxiety spiral or what you just described is recognizing what the bottom line fear is, right?

Cathy: Because your, if we were to just Go through like that thing with your dad. The bottom line [00:18:00] fear is my dad could get sick. My dad could die and it would be my fault.

Yeah.

Cathy: Right. That was like truly the, even though there was a lot of steps before that, you were like, if this becomes a reality, this is going to be devastating.

Cathy: And then the other one, um, Like for me, I, that’s kind of what I look to is what is the fear that I have here? Like I can get, I can spiral out about things like, um, you know, I take my blood pressure every day or not every day, but most days just because I’m, that’s a whole nother anxiety that I have because my father had high blood pressure and I try and check mine.

Cathy: Cause every time I go to the doctor, it’s high because I have white coat syndrome. It just, I think. You, you other people listening with anxiety, you may, you may relate to me a little bit and, but sometimes when I get a higher reading, that just sets me off. So what is, what is my fear underneath there? My fear is this is why I [00:19:00] brought up my dad is very connected to having any kind of cardiovascular heart issues like my dad did.

Cathy: Like there’s such a genetic component, right? And all of a sudden I get wrapped up in it. And okay, I have a high blood pressure reading. This means this, this means I’m going to have the experience my dad did. This means I need to do something about it right away. This means I’m doing something wrong. You know, I’m eating the wrong way.

Cathy: I’m not moving enough, which these are not true things. Cause I am doing all those things, but I start to be very self blaming, self shaming, and I start to feel like there’s something deeply wrong. And a lot of that. When you really trace it back comes to the trauma of watching my dad struggle with his heart issues.

Cathy: You know, he had his first heart attack when I was a freshman in high school. I was very young and then to take care of him for 17 years when he was dealing with, you know, issues with, you know, chronic heart failure. What is it called? Chronic heart disease. Chronic heart disease. Is it chronic?

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: Is that the right word?

Cathy: Um, but yeah, it was just a heart disease over time. [00:20:00] Right. So I get nervous about these things. So that sends me into a spiral. And why that’s important for me to say all those things out loud to you is do you see how it traces back? It may not be reality in the moment, but it traces back.

Todd: And I would say most of our struggles usually trace back to something that we have not yet resolved.

Todd: Um, And, and, you know, from a day to day standpoint, usually when I get anxious, I’m, I’m lacking control of something I want to have control over, or I’m lacking approval from you or my kids or my boss or security, um, you know, I, I don’t feel safe in this situation. So that’s usually when I start getting spun out and I would say most of us human beings get spun out.

Cathy: Yeah. And, you know, you just said something we haven’t resolved. I, I think. Yeah. Yeah. The word resolved is a strong word and it reminds me of like healing, like something we haven’t healed. And the truth is that there’s a lot of things in [00:21:00] life we can’t resolve. There’s just a reality about health. And there’s a reality about like, I’m not quite, I have done so much therapy, as you know, over the last, um, seven, eight years, especially in regards to my dad and doctor’s appointments.

Cathy: And I’ve done EMDR around it. And then with my mom with dementia, like there were so many things. And. There is an awareness of these are anxieties that I have, but I don’t know how to resolve that.

Todd: Well, how about we take it from the other direction? What would have happened if you never did any of your work on this?

Todd: What if you didn’t do EMDR? What if you haven’t, you know, um, Seek support from professionals or from your husband or from friends and you just kind of kept it all bottled up, I guess.

Cathy: Yeah.

Todd: So no, are you completely rid of something? No, but there’s a spectrum there. And I would gather because of all of your investigative, your introspection [00:22:00] on some of these things, you’re better equipped to deal with, you know, day to day.

Todd: anxieties that show up.

Cathy: Yeah. I can, I have separation between myself and it, you know, like I don’t feel like it’s always, like I said, I noticed when I’m having an anxiety spiral and I don’t even necessarily think what I’m thinking is true, but my feelings are strong. Exactly. I feel, and, and that’s, you know, that’s something interesting is that, um, You know, the impact of anxiety spirals.

Cathy: They can, they obviously can physically, um, we can feel full of stress hormones. We can feel tension. We can feel headaches. We can feel gastrointestinal issues, um, mentally they can leave us exhausted. Like that’s something I’ve definitely had physical issues with anxiety, but. The mental exhaustion like to have a day where I would love, you know, it’s one of those things where I could be going through anxiety spirals like catastrophizing and people around me [00:23:00] won’t even know because it’s going on in my head and then by the end of the day I am wiped.

Cathy: And, and it’s hard to understand why I’m wiped, right? It’s like, because I have been working really hard to either pull out of this spiral or question this spiral or, you know, to, to do the emotional work that’s necessary to find equilibrium. And that takes energy. Yeah. And um. It’s an investment. It’s an investment.

Cathy: It’s not

Todd: a cost. It’s an investment. Yeah. Of our ability to be content and handle adversities down the line.

Cathy: That’s right. And to, and that’s the thing is like, you know, that’s why, and Todd is, is completely right with everything he said, but. These words like resolve and heal. The reason why I’m always like, I have a little like effect or like a little like about something we haven’t resolved or healed is because I don’t think we ever get rid of something.

Cathy: We just learn how to deal with it and process it. Or we find new tools to [00:24:00] recognize it or see it. And the hope is that like Todd said, When you do a lot of work around it, it decreases and it has less, it has

Todd: less of a grip on you,

Cathy: but it’s still a thing. Like I can’t get rid of the experiences that I had with my parents around health issues.

Cathy: I just, it’s not, it was my entire adult life. And so my feelings about taking care of myself and health and, and fear and all that. That’s just part of being Cathy. And, but what I can do, my goal for myself always is talk about it, recognize it, see it, process through it, which is why we’re talking about something like anxiety spirals, recognize, you know, the self compassion point.

Cathy: is recognize the common humanity in it. This isn’t a Cathy problem. People have, um, anxiety around many different things. And we all, you know, because we’re all human beings and this, you know, our bodies have the same reaction and that [00:25:00] recognizing what’s happening. And when we’re like, Oh, other people have that too.

Cathy: It seems less daunting.

Todd: Well, and that’s probably another thing that, um, we can do. And I know we haven’t gotten to the part where, Hey, this is what you do with it, but normalize it. Like this is something we all as human beings. Have to deal with. Right. Some of us deal with it a little bit easier or less easy than others, but, uh, it’s our brains wired to do, you know, you know, what’s that book wisdom of anxiety, which I never read, but you did, but you loved, who’s the, you remember the author of that

Cathy: one?

Cathy: It’s a woman. I can see the cover, but I can’t remember like

Todd: even the title of a book, the wisdom of anxiety, it’s such a different take on anxiety because, you know, I think if we scanned, One of the themes of this podcast that we’ve done over the last 14 years, anxiety probably would show up quite often.

Cathy: Oh yeah.

Todd: And the fact that this woman wrote this book of the wisdom of anxiety is like, Oh, well maybe this anxiety is here to help me learn [00:26:00] something about myself or it’s helping me to wake up to something. The problem is the anxiety just spirals or goes way far too in one direction.

Cathy: Right. And that’s the thing is like.

Cathy: It’s not, um, we, even something like anxiety, we demonize it. You know, we’re like, this is something that we want to stay away from when the truth is, um, anxiety is there to help us, right? It’s there to wake us up. It’s there to give us the energy we need. It’s there to make sure that we run. If we need to run, the problem is, is when we are spiraling.

Cathy: about something that we’re thinking versus something that’s actually happening. Now, again, as a therapist, this is something I always differentiate with clients because they always say, well, what’s the difference? Like it’s going to happen or it’s, it did happen. And so they’re like, you know, there’s this hard thing with differentiating between something that’s real or could be real, because what do we, I would say this too, like someone’s like, well, that’s not going to happen.

Cathy: I want to be like, but it could. You know what I mean? And so I [00:27:00] think the next step then is recognizing that worrying. I’m trying to like make that word longer. Worrying about it does not help. Like it doesn’t change it. Is there a

Todd: difference between anxiety

Cathy: and worry? Um, let’s see. Anxiety, I think about more as a body response or a mental component, um, as far as like, this is what’s happening to our body.

Cathy: We’re having anxiety, um, worrying. Say the word worrying for me,

Todd: worrying,

Cathy: worrying, worrying. Don’t you want to like say the why a little more worrying,

Todd: worrying. It is kind of a hard one. It’s a hard word. I just Googled it. Here’s a breakdown of the differences. Okay. Let’s

Cathy: hear it.

Todd: Uh, the nature of the experience.

Todd: A person’s worry tends to be more specific and cognitive. Okay. Focused on thoughts. Anxiety is more diffuse and emotional.

Cathy: Okay. So anxiety is the emotional, and I would, I would want to add physical too, right?

Todd: Well, focus of concern. Worry usually centers out centers are realistic, [00:28:00] future oriented concerns.

Todd: Anxiety often relates to more vague or uncontrollable fears, physical symptoms. Worry typically doesn’t come with significant physical symptoms. Anxiety often brings, often brings, brings physical symptoms such as increased heart rate, muscle tension, sweating, sensations of panic. Um, and you know, this is just what the Google search told me, but yeah, worry tends to be short term anxieties, longer lasting, uh, worry can sometimes be helpful and motivating.

Todd: Anxiety can interfere with daily functioning.

Cathy: Well, and that’s the thing. Okay. Let’s go back to, uh, you know, inside out too, for those of you who have seen it and it’s on Disney plus right now, there is. A, you know, we have anxiety is the, you know, one of the new characters is, you know, um, Riley is going through puberty and anxiety when anxiety goes into a full panic attack, which was one of the greatest scenes in the movie, or when anxiety is like taking over everything, then it becomes, um, all encompassing.

Cathy: And those are [00:29:00] spirals, right? Right? We, they’re panic attacks with different language for it, but it’s where anxiety has the whole board. They’re running the whole system. Worry is, you know, a great scene where there’s a moment where they give anxiety some tea and let her relax, but then she’s like, hey, we have a test this week.

Cathy: Don’t forget. Now, That’s a concern, a worry, a reminder, but it kind of comes and goes where they’re like, okay, then we’ll take care of it. We’ll study. Like you need reminders, like worry can pop up. So you go, Oh, I need to take care of that. Like we want to have that part of ourselves, but we don’t need to then go into a spiral about, will I study?

Cathy: You know, will I do well, even if, if I study, if I don’t do well, what’ll happen? Then we start to go down that spiral. So

Todd: do you want to hear a little bit of, uh, Riley have an anxiety? Go ahead.

All [00:30:00] right, get it together. Come on Riley, get it together. I’m not good enough. You have to score Riley! But this is one of the feelings right now. Bring it to the forefronter.

Todd: Hashtag

Cathy: relate. Hashtag relate. And once she’s in the spiral, do you see how all those negative voices come in to reinforce the positive?

Cathy: experience she’s having. And that’s what I mean about that. You know, sometimes the feelings get so big because there’s a bunch of reinforcements behind that spiral that we have seen bad things happen. We know something can go wrong. We have had experiences that are negative, so we can be easily taken down.

Cathy: Um, but we can also, you know, what, what does she do? We’ll, we’ll get to the, that in a second about what to do. But I wanted to share, uh, share two things. Cheryl Paul is the person who wrote The Wiz. Wisdom of anxiety. And then the other one is that, um, there was a TED talk by Kelly McGonigal. Um, it came out probably [00:31:00] five years ago, maybe even a decade ago about how, um, stress and anxiety can be our friend.

Cathy: She uses the word stress specifically, but she goes into anxiety in the TED talk. And how sometimes we demonize things and once we demonize it, then we become afraid of being stressed or we become afraid of being anxious. And then we’re like compounding this issue. So that’s just another good Ted Talk to look at if you’re interested.

Cathy: Um, so we talked about the impact, how to know if you’re in a spiral Todd, we kind of talked about this already, but things start to feel overwhelming and out of control. Um, you may notice all the physical symptoms that we talked about. Feeling panicky, like you’re trapped or in danger, you know, that kind of feeling where you’re like, so tight, um, you know, nauseous, tightening of the stomach, uh, heart starts beating fast and then shallow breathing.

Cathy: Um, so that’s, sometimes those are the physical symptoms and then now we’re getting into the ways to stop [00:32:00] a spiral. So why don’t you go first?

Todd: Well, the first thing is, you know, if This is a parenting podcast. So there may be some parents out there that are trying to support their children who are going through this.

Todd: And, you know, as this probably is not going to come as much of a surprise, but best thing you can do in that moment is instead of first leaping to having your kid catch his or her breath. And just to do some mindful breathing, we should probably do that ourselves. Like if we see our kids starting to spiral, all of a sudden the mirror neurons kick in and I start feeling anxious because my kid is feeling anxious.

Todd: So the first thing that we can do is practice all this stuff ourselves before we try to get our kid to do all this stuff.

Cathy: Totally.

Todd: Um, but anyways, so.

Cathy: Actually, there was somebody that just emailed me about the show and I’m trying to remember who it was. And she said, The thing that she got from our show from the beginning and that we kept talking about is bring calm to calm.

Cathy: Who was [00:33:00] that that said that to us? Anyway, and I, and I love that, that, that that’s a takeaway from this show, because when your child is spiraling or when your partner is, or when you feel like you are, the only thing to bring to it is calm. is calm. The whole idea that yelling or engaging or getting more worked up, all of those things, especially when our kid is going through something, only heightens it.

Cathy: So we, the only thing that calms people down is being with someone who is calm. So that becomes our work. Like it’s what I love about the work of parenting is it’s actually the work of, you know, Of humaning is that I’m making up a word for humaning is that we become better humans as we learn how to be better parents, meaning we’d take on skills that maybe we feel inspired to take on because we love our kids, our kids so much, but then we actually also learn how to calm down ourselves and we’re better in [00:34:00] every relationship and in every work situation.

Cathy: And in our partnership, sometimes it’s parenting. or marriage that inspire us to do this hard work. And then we realize how it transcends everything.

Todd: Um, so one of the things on here says, uh, you know, grounding technique. So when somebody you love or some, maybe you are in the middle of this anxiety spiral, um, the first thing that’s up here, it says the 2, 1 method, which we talked about five things you can Identify four things you can touch, three things you can hear, two things you smell, and one thing you taste.

Todd: It just kind of brings you back to this moment. And really it’s kind of a distraction to whatever these thoughts are that made you just spiral. Um, obviously you do some box breathing. Um, you can challenge your thoughts, like ask yourself, is this true? And you know, whatever it is that you think you’re worried about, has it happened yet?

Todd: Because if it happened, then you deal with it. But most of this stuff are things that have yet to happen. Um, Is it possible that the opposite [00:35:00] of what you think might happen might happen? Like last week with the hurricane, it was bad, right? But it could have been a lot worse.

Cathy: Yeah. And I, and, you know, we had talked about that because I think the buildup from the media and from what we were seeing, because that was the thing, like, sometimes I get frustrated because I do talk about anxiety a lot, um, and how I deal with it.

Cathy: I think sometimes when I bring something up that I’m concerned about for good reason, um, and you don’t, it’s not really you, Todd. Maybe I’m projecting this, but there’s a belief that I’m just being anxious versus I’m really noticing something that’s bad. Um, you know what I mean? And I think anybody who was watching what was happening with the hurricanes, um, All they were telling us is this is the worst we’ve ever seen.

Cathy: Never seen anything like it. Like it wasn’t a catastrophizing internally. There was like an external reality that we were facing. And so it’s like, how do we deal with that? To your point, it was still devastating, but not to the amount that maybe we thought it would be. So there was a weird [00:36:00] relief. Now those who lost their homes and everything, they’re not relieved.

Cathy: Um, they had that experience, but they are. It’s a, this is very tricky business, everybody, like this is, you know, this conversation, there are no absolutes and anybody who says, I never get anxious because I do A, B or C, we all get anxious sometimes depending on what the issue is.

Todd: Well, and for me, um, I spent some of my attention and energy towards the hurricane last week and I would have been more anxious if I had a house in Florida, on the west coast of Florida.

Todd: I have loved ones who have houses on the west coast of Florida, so I obviously am thinking about them, but It, it’s as much as I love my loved ones, it would have been even higher degree or more escalated if it was my house. And that’s just kind of like this, I don’t know, selfish nature of it. Like there’s these, all these terrible things happening all over the world, but because most of those terrible things are not happening to [00:37:00] me, I feel for them, but I’m not as my survival is not, um, at risk.

Todd: And if it was, I would probably. Spinning out of control and I make up a lot of other, you know, things that I get worried about that are just silly and stupid. Um, so it’s tricky. And you know, I did not judge you at all last week when you were in, Absorbing a lot of the information. Um, I think I have done that in the past.

Todd: Like, Oh, what are you worried about? Like, I just kept my mouth shut. I let you do your thing.

Cathy: Well, and like we said, there’s people that, you know, our family and your dad actually does live on the West coast. So you do have family, but he was in Huntley. True. And you know, I, I get it. It’s just, I mean, our, I consider.

Cathy: Because of my history, Florida, a second home because my parents live there and my aunt lives there. So there is a lot invested personally for me and and with that said though we’re gonna go back and forth and give each other credit for [00:38:00] this is you’re right in that me reading about it constantly doesn’t Change the outcome.

Cathy: I think there is though a This is what I’ll say about like scrolling or reading news for me is sometimes I am looking for good news and I know that sounds that can be ridiculous when you’re scrolling social media because their whole goal is to get you scared so you keep looking and so you’re not going to find good news.

Cathy: But in something like a hurricane, I have watched hurricanes change course. I have watched where they’re like, Oh, we thought it was going to be a five.

And now

Cathy: it’s a tropical storm. And so then you’re like, okay, good. I can, I can put a pin in this or set this aside. And I think I was looking for that. I was looking because they were saying it was going to be so bad.

Cathy: And I’m like, okay, wait a second. Now. We’re focusing on the hurricane, but we could talk about this in terms of politics too, right? Like reading the polls every day is, can, it can be crazy making and, and can be overwhelming and especially getting closer to the election, the media and a lot of like [00:39:00] polls that are partisan are going to flood.

Cathy: What did they call it? Like, um, They’re going to, they’re going to flood the polls. And so it’s going to make everything look even tighter and tighter and tighter, which it may be, I don’t know, you know, but we look, because we’re looking for good news that makes us feel better. And we continue to look. And then when we have a bad day where we don’t look, we’re like, but maybe tomorrow will be different.

Cathy: So it’s this back and forth of, it’s very hard to stay away completely. Or, you know, for those of you, this is one that Todd and I don’t have, but I know a lot of people I talk to do. Looking at your kids grades, right? You go into power school to see something because you want to feel better about what they’re doing.

Cathy: And then, or schoolology or whatever your school has. And then the next day they get an F or they get a C and you’re upset. And then the next day they get an A and you’re relieved. Like, or watching your stocks. Or watching the Dow and you’re like, Oh, it went up, it went down. We don’t have a lot of power in it, but sometimes we want to pull good news out of it, but then what we don’t realize is it, [00:40:00] or we do realize it keeps going.

Todd: Hoping for good news, whether it’s in the. Uh, stock market or if it’s where the hurricane’s at, um, and you’re putting yourself in a position to plummet even more. Be disappointed. Be disappointed.

Cathy: And it’s, it’s ongoing. It’s alive.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: So like watching this hurricane and then hearing that, okay, it’s going to be okay.

Cathy: There are other hurricanes. There are other global disasters. Same with, you know, politics. We’re going to be done with this election and guess what’s going to happen.

Todd: Another election.

Cathy: Another election comes. So we really have to figure out how to deal within it rather than wait for it to go away. Yeah. Um, so some other things that, um, you already talked about grounding techniques and self soothing, um, you know, one of my favorites is, is cuddling, which, or hugging or

Todd: physical touch,

Cathy: physical touch.

Cathy: And sometimes it can even be with, uh, You know, nobody’s home like a stuffed animal or a pillow or just doing something that they actually have demonstrated that holding something, obviously with a [00:41:00] person, it’s more beneficial, but holding and hugging like releases oxytocin, you know what I mean? So those of you who tell your children, To get rid of their stuffed animals.

Cathy: Don’t do that. Let them have their stuffed animals for life. Actually, Cameron just got another stuffed animal. Her boyfriend just got her this, um, what’s that little doll’s name that she loves? It’s

Todd: green.

Cathy: It’s green. What’s her name? She’s gonna be mad that I don’t remember. But it’s this cute little doll.

Cathy: Is it Mona or something? Mona! It’s Mona who’s in all of these little She’s in this little, um, Oh, I don’t know if it’s a show or if it’s just little clips, but she’s just, she always talks about her feelings and everything. And Cameron loves her. So she has her and, you know, she has her, uh, Capybara and she has her Toby and all these little things.

Cathy: And JC does too. She’s got an elephant camera. Skylar’s got a. Teddy bear, like I have a monkey. Todd, you don’t have a stuffy No, I got my body pillow and I got you babe. You’ve got um, Hobbs though from Calvin and Hobbs. I do. You [00:42:00]

Todd: have Hobbs, but he’s sitting on a shelf most of the time. Yeah.

Cathy: But these things are like, they’re connecting and they’re nurturing and they kind of bring us back to that sense of, um, safety that we had when we were a kid and we were hugging something.

Cathy: So you wanna hear Simon Mona? Sure. Hey

birdie, it’s okay birdie, I’m gonna take care of you birdie, okay?

Cathy: Sweet Mona. She’s, what is it called, Todd, since you pulled up a clip?

Todd: Um,

Cathy: Mona,

Todd: I don’t know. I don’t know what it is. Here, I can, I can find it. Okay. Hold on.

Cathy: Because I, it’s all over Tik TOK and I see it on Insta Reels and stuff.

Cathy: So it’s, it’s something that kind of kept going on

Todd: and a N a L a N not a lot official. Here’s your inner child. I don’t know. Under my wing. I think it’s called non alone. I don’t know. And is it a show? This one’s 23 minutes long. Yeah. It looks like a little Sesame street type of show. So

Cathy: they talk about feelings and you know, it’s, I [00:43:00] think it’s just as soothing to people, even older kids.

Cathy: Anyway, if you’ve heard of it email us or look it up yourself. Um, but anyway, she she likes Mona. Yeah, she’s sweet So anyway,

Todd: you know just showed up on my youtube clip.

Cathy: What?

Yes. It’s a sport where you throw a ball with your hands So in football there is no kicking there’s a little kicking

Todd: So that is a sketch from Starry Night Live from last year, I believe, but they just did another one.

Todd: It’s with Nate Pargatsky. Is that right? Pargatsky. Um, and it’s quite hilarious, and I just got distracted because it showed up.

Cathy: Well, ironically, the next thing we’re going to talk about was healthy distraction, and the first one is humor. Um, and so, You know, again, sometimes the word distraction gets a negative connotation.

Cathy: Um, like that we shouldn’t be distracting, that we should be figuring things out always in the moment, but with something like an anxiety spiral, when you realize you’re not in a place you need to be, should be, or [00:44:00] that is helpful, a healthy distraction, like looking at something funny, laughing, releasing, um, can be really good for your brain to, you know, jump out of that, uh, distraction.

Cathy: spiraling feeling. Um, you can call someone, you can go for a walk. You can, a big thing that we used to do with the girls when they were little, uh, we don’t do this as much now that they’re older. They have to kind of do it on their own, but if they were really upset about something or really anxious about something, we would literally tell them to move around and shake it off or be a duck.

Cathy: Cause we got that from Eckhart Tolle. Like shit, like ducks, when they get into an argument. Say they’re with other ducks. They run into each other and they’re like, and then they just shake their feathers, get rid of that energy and move on their way. And they don’t then go up to another group of ducks and say that duck over there was just mean to me.

Cathy: And I’m mad.

Todd: The, the, the. Dogs do this all the time. Dogs

Cathy: shake it off

Todd: all the time. Yeah, and that’s not even like, you know, we have a dog, uh, Kona, who lives right next to us. [00:45:00] And, you know, whenever I’m petting her, whatever, she, she shakes my energy off. Now that I’m, I have all this negative energy, but even dogs know how to shake off.

Todd: Energy. Other people’s stuff. Isn’t that so interesting?

Cathy: Yeah.

Todd: Yeah.

Cathy: Absolutely. And so does Smokey, our rabbit. She itches it off. She takes her leg and itches, itches, itches, like gets rid of what is not hers. And for our, our ability to shake off, literally physically shake off what we don’t need. We might look silly initially, but it feels good.

Cathy: You get rid of it. We tend to, as we get older, we tend to let go of these really helpful ways to rid ourselves of. of negative feelings. And then, um, We used to

Todd: be experts at this when we were little kids, when we were really young. We, yeah, we’d have a feeling in the body. We’d move our body in a way that released it, but then the prefrontal cortex kicked in and we try to think our way through all these issues.

Cathy: Yeah. And I agree with you. We are, we become more adult about it. Like, or we’re shaming. I shouldn’t be [00:46:00] going through this. I shouldn’t be feeling this. Make up a

Todd: story about the feeling instead of just feel the feeling.

Cathy: Just feel it and realize that the more, the less weight you put on feeling the feeling, the easier it will be to process.

Cathy: Let it go or to release it for the time being, you know, just to kind of let go. But if we start to feel ashamed that we’re having a spiral, one of these, one of them that I like to do, especially when it’s cold out is I just open the door and then smell outside. Like I need to get out of the smells or surroundings that I have.

Cathy: And when it’s cold out. It can be this way when it’s warm too, but for some reason cold wakes me up a little better and I smell fall, or I’m like, and it helps my brain. I tend to be a very s um, smell sensitive person, um, which I like sometimes. Sometimes I don’t. Doesn’t

Todd: bo bode well for me, sweetie? No. I sometimes skip some, some showers.

Todd: Let’s just say that ,

Cathy: I just am, I’m so smell [00:47:00] sensitive, but what it. What it’s also connected to is when I smell certain things, I get memories really quickly. I, I have like, I’ll smell something and I’ll be like, Ooh, I remember exactly when I smelled this, or this reminds me of this time of my life. And so it, my brain shifts quickly when I smell things.

Cathy: So it’s why I like essential oils, all those kinds of things. So, you know, using temperature and smells to change and then preventing future spirals. Todd, what do you think?

Todd: Um, get good sleep. I don’t know.

Cathy: Yeah. I mean, obviously good self care, stress, um, creating a calmer environment for yourself, you know, there’s, I feel like I’ve been in a lot of conversations with people lately about how their jobs have caused them to have bad stomach pains or.

Cathy: You know, huge anxiety where they feel it internally. And then when they get away from their job or get away from a certain situation, they don’t have that pain anymore. So you realize right there, what stress and anxiety does to you physically. [00:48:00] And I know sometimes when it’s work related, it’s very hard to get away from quickly.

Cathy: Like it may be something we, it may take time to find another job. It may take time to decrease our anxiety. Once we get home from work. Um, Um, but recognize how important it is to have some kind of self care regimen to decrease those physical symptoms, because, you know, I mean, I’m just thinking of something like an ulcer, you know, that can eat into your stomach, like, and so not only are you having that pain in the moment, but it can cause a lot of problems later.

Cathy: Um, and, and I’m speaking from experience, like I’m not. Pointing that out with anyone else, I’ve dealt with migraines. I’ve, you’ve dealt with stomach issues with your anxiety. So we’ve all been there, but it’s an awareness that, wow, really the only thing that’s important and the way that I can stay productive in work or as a parent or in my relationship is if I make myself a priority, I have to figure out ways, doesn’t mean you’ll never have an anxiety spiral again.

Cathy: It means that. Maybe we can pull out of it a [00:49:00] little quicker. Maybe we can see what’s happening. That’s right.

Todd: Uh, beautiful. Um, I just want to close with a few, uh, Zen, Team Zen updates. That’s, uh, the group that Cathy and I created. Uh, virtual community. Um, we have Zen Talk 193 this Wednesday. Wow. Uh, you have your women’s group a week from this Wednesday on October 23rd.

Todd: There’s also these micro communities. So for,

Cathy: and we’re also inviting some thought leaders, a few people I’m talking to who are going to come in and talk to Team Zen. So there’s some new authors and thought leaders coming in.

Todd: Nice. And we have, uh, some micro communities. Um, some of our team, we’ve got about a hundred members on the team, uh, have, um, uh, you Children with differently wired, uh, kids or partners.

Todd: Um, so they get together and talk once a month, loved ones dealing with addiction. Um, so a lot of stuff coming up. So if you’re interested in Team Zen, 25 bucks a month, just scroll and you’ll see, learn more about Team Zen and you’ll check it out.

Cathy: And get your tickets to the conference. That’s right. Pre order my book, [00:50:00] Restoring Our Girls, more to come about that.

Cathy: That’s right. And, um, thanks for listening everybody. We really appreciate it.

Todd: Yeah. And, uh, just be okay with the anxiety spirals. It

Cathy: happens. It

Todd: happens. Keep trucking.

Round two. Change a little bit. And change a little bit. Pretty pleasant.