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Todd: Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 785. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is that the best predictor of a child’s wellbeing is a parent’s self understanding. On today’s show, I am going to share an experience I had yesterday at the airport with my daughter, which I have not yet experienced.
Todd: Get shared with you. I don’t think. Okay. Maybe I did. I don’t. And we’re also going to talk about yours and turning moment, which is about the comparison culture. We live in it. I would say we swim in it. Like it’s kind of like, this is water. Like it’s, it’s so much that we don’t even notice it’s there.
Cathy: Yeah.
Cathy: It’s a mixture of. There’s, it’s on [00:01:00] purpose, meaning that’s the way we sell things like marketing and, and that’s the way we sell social class. And that’s the way we sell, you know, products and advertising is by comparing. And it’s also our neuro bi, Biology is kind of set up to compare because we want to survive and we also want to, um, you know, achieve things and, and make strides in life.
Cathy: So we compare to other people.
Todd: Well, and I guess said in another way, or maybe the same way, um, it’s ego. It’s sure. Ego, like our soul or, you know, the one that was here before our ego showed up. So I don’t know if we have an ego when we’re like three months old, do we? Probably not.
Cathy: Um,
Todd: brain’s still too mushy.
Cathy: You know, it just depends on, you know, there’s, there’s like the clinical version of the ego and then there’s the ego, which is, I think you’re talking about, which is the, um, our need to, um, [00:02:00] be better than other people or our desire to be great. Yeah. And then there’s an ego self, which is the one that gets us up in the morning, who recognizes that we need to take care of our own needs.
Cathy: You know, that’s less about a
Todd: little bit of the earthwalk.
Cathy: Yeah. Because if we had no ego, Why would we do anything for ourselves? So, there, that’s why we don’t really want to make it a bad thing. We just want to recognize what it does and why.
Todd: Yeah, we’re not necessarily comparing ourselves when we’re three month old to the three month old next to us.
Todd: So, we’re going to talk about that. Um, I think I first just want to share. So I’m in charge of the Men Living blog this week, which, uh, is a love hate thing because writing just not good at it because I, I mean, I used to be an okay writer in high school, I guess, but for the most part, I don’t enjoy it. The reason I do it, why are you doing it Todd?
Todd: Uh, one is I appreciate it when I’m done with it. Like, Oh, that was good. But the process [00:03:00] you can, but you like writing.
Cathy: Well, no, no. I was going to say, I think I’m kind of, I help you with that process. Cause don’t you think with your writing process?
Todd: Well, I write it and then I say, look at this. Is that what you mean?
Todd: Yeah. Like you proofread it. Yeah. Yeah. Right. You definitely helped me.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: For sure. Uh, but you like writing, don’t you?
Cathy: Uh, yes, I do. Very much. I
Todd: don’t.
Cathy: I know. I know. I was just listening to a podcast this weekend and it was a writing podcast. I like to listen to writing podcasts. So if anyone has any recommendation, uh, recommendations, let me know.
Cathy: Um, but. Yeah. This woman who is a writer was talking about her experience with writing nonfiction and fiction and she talked about being a ghostwriter for so many people and how the majority of people who have businesses don’t write their own books. And I always get really frustrated by that. And I guess I, I don’t know if anyone considers me having a business, but I write every single word of my book.
Yeah.
Cathy: Every single word. Like. Obviously, I get help with editing just like everyone does editing. You have to, you know, people [00:04:00] have to look at your work and make sure, but that’s frustrating to me sometimes because then I think sometimes people don’t think you wrote your book. Let’s put it
Todd: this way.
Todd: There’s different, um, ways of being a writer. Some people write by talking into a microphone, sending it to somebody, saying, put all these random thoughts. In a, in a cohesive way where people will appreciate reading it. That’s yeah. Even
Cathy: Brene Brown does that. Like she, she talked about that. She goes into a room, talks it out, and then it gets written.
Todd: Whereas you, uh, for the most part, you have ideas, you type on a keyboard and that’s your version. Yeah.
Cathy: But anyway, go back to you. I took the spotlight for a second there.
Todd: Don’t put me on the spotlight on that. Um, I, I’m coming home from a trip. Uh, I got, I had some work out in Oregon. I met up with some friends, uh, my daughter and I went out there.
Todd: We went to the Oregon. Who did they play? They played Michigan State. And her best friend, uh, from high school and [00:05:00] grade school, goes to school there, goes to school there. Had a wonderful weekend flying home, uh, at the Portland airport yesterday, and JC and I sit down. Did I tell you the story?
Cathy: I don’t think so.
Todd: JC and I sit down and there is a dude next to me, a white man, uh, who is obviously upset with something that happened to do with his food or his service or something like that.
Mm-Hmm. ,
Todd: um. And, you know, Jaycee, who is always locked in on everything that’s going on around her, she’s locked in, in a way that even I’m not.
Todd: But there’s even other patrons, like, just looking at this incident. Now, the guy never yelled, um, but I ended up writing about this for this week’s blog, and I’m just, and it’s not yet confirmed. Complete. So I’m actually using this podcast as, um, processing as a processing vehicle, um, from you or just for myself kind of saying it out loud.
Todd: So he was mad, something about dairy, like we didn’t know it was [00:06:00] dairy or whatever. You guys
Cathy: were already on the plane. You weren’t in the airport. No,
Todd: We’re at the breakfast. We’re at breakfast before at the airport. And Like it’s one thing to complain, like, hey, um, this isn’t what I ordered, would you mind taking it back?
Todd: There’s so many different ways of doing it. And he did it in, I’ll say, the dickish way possible. Okay. He was just being a jerk. And one of the things he said, which is hilarious, And sad and frustrating is you need to ask me before you put ice in my water. Like you should, you shouldn’t assume that somebody wants ice in their water.
Todd: It was, it was that type of energy. And it was something about dairy and eggs and cheese or whatever. Was he
Cathy: by himself?
Todd: He’s by himself. Oh,
Cathy: interesting. And the
Todd: waitress is cute. A short woman, happens to be a minority, and she’s doing all the things that you have to do in the service industry, which is take all the BS.
Todd: She’s being as [00:07:00] apologetic as she can, whatever the screw up happened probably wasn’t even her fault. If there was a screw up, it may have happened in the kitchen, but she’s front facing, she’s the, yeah, don’t shoot the messenger. But she’s so sweet. But this guy went on for like four or five minutes, like literally.
Todd: Like this could have been a 20 second exchange and he could have done it in a very nice way, but instead, you know, she’s busy. She’s got all these other tables. I hope this guy’s listening.
Yeah.
Todd: He’s probably not. Um, and I just felt awful for this woman having, having to be, I don’t know, maybe verbally abused is a.
Cathy: Well, can you, can you say what he said? I mean, you don’t have to have a verbatim, but I’m still kind of missing what you said. He went on about what, like his order was wrong.
Todd: About his food.
Cathy: So he got his food and he’s like, you did this wrong.
Todd: You have to ask me before I decide with the ice. Okay. I don’t want ice in my water.
Cathy: Got it. So it was his water and then it was his food.
Todd: And I don’t remember all the details. JC was much more [00:08:00] locked in. Like I can’t hear that well to begin with. And you know, JC was just like staring and you know, so then he went on his way. And, you know, I just said to the, I felt awful for the lady and I felt like punching this guy in the face, which I wouldn’t do, but that’s what I felt like doing.
Todd: Like what a jerk. Yeah. And I said, I just need to apologize for that guy. Now I don’t have any authority to apologize for this man, but there’s just so many different ways he could have gone about it. And I started making up all these stories about this guy. For all I know, he had a horrible day, got horrible news from this morning.
Cathy: Flights canceled.
Todd: He was a pilot by the way, he’s a man of authority. Wow. Right? Yeah. Right. Okay. Um, he could have, maybe his kids are sick at home. I don’t know. But the story I made up, this is a white entitled privileged white man
who doesn’t
Todd: want ice and he does not respect this woman who’s working her tail off.
Todd: And I just got, I was just very upset. Now I was upset. Let’s say I was six out of 10 upset. JC was 10 out of 10 out of 10 because I think JC [00:09:00] observes the world through a lens of fairness. Fairness. And, uh, I was just, uh, So did
Cathy: you say
Todd: this to the waitress? I, I said to the waitress, I said, I, even though I don’t have the authority to do this, but I just want to apologize for that man.
Todd: There’s so many different ways he could have communicated the message. And she was so sweet. She’s like, he could, you know, she’s like, it happens all the time.
Cathy: Oh, right. I know that’s it. I thought that’s what you were going to say. And meaning that she’s like, it happens all the time. And that’s so hard to hear.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: And, and, you know, airports are sometimes, you know, you got to get your food, you got to get there in time, you got security. It’s a, it’s a higher pressure situation than walking in the park, but still, there’s so many different ways of going about it. So I don’t know what I’m going to title this podcast, but it’s going to be like, just, just be kind.
Cathy: Well, actually we’re talking about comparison culture, so we’re probably going to title it that. Don’t
Todd: you think? Uh, well, I’m talking about my blog. Your blog. Okay. I thought you
Cathy: said podcast. I’m
Todd: sorry. Um, I think I’m just going to title it Be Kind. And like I said, I’m, I just find [00:10:00] myself getting annoyed quicker at somebody who looks like me.
Cathy: Well, I, this is interesting because I was at brunch yesterday with Manisha and we were sitting in kind of, we were, we meet in between in Park Ridge and we were sitting at a kind of bar slash restaurant. A lot of football games going on. So it’s a lot of like coming and going where people are sitting for long periods of time, having coffee, whatever.
Cathy: So it’s a little more of a relaxed atmosphere, as you can imagine. And there was this guy, these two men, um, one table to the side of us. And we were like talking to the waitress and he’s like, ma’am, like interrupted her while she was talking to us.
Yeah.
Cathy: And said, I don’t know if you know this, but we’re in a hurry.
Cathy: And so I kind of looked over and we all kind of, we literally all took 30 seconds. Cause I was like, Oh, like, so I looked over, I’m like, have they not ordered? Are they waiting for their food? Like, what are they waiting for their check? And I think they were waiting for their food. I think that’s what we figured out, but we all kind of stared for a second.
Cathy: Like. And she said, [00:11:00] she did great as, you know, waitresses do, you know, she’s like, okay. And he’s like, yeah, we came in to come in and we need to get out of here. So I don’t mean to be rude, but he was getting louder, kind of like he, he realized we all kind of looked at him with the same glance because she was talking to us, like we were being served.
Cathy: Right. It’s like jumping in line and being right. And so it was very odd. And when, you know, she’s like, okay, she did a great job. She went and poured him some coffee. She’s like, I’ll go check on everything. But it was like, you know, Manish and I looked at each other for a minute, like we can’t talk about it because he’s right there, but it’s the, and again, to your point, there is nothing wrong with saying, you know what, we’re in a hurry, can we get our check?
Cathy: Or it’s all about how.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: It’s
Todd: not what, it’s how. You can get your needs met, but you can get it met. by being kind and nice and empathic. And in that moment, I felt like, what can I do in this moment? And I kind of, I didn’t freeze, but I’m like, all right, it’s not my battle. Blah, blah, blah. No, but there’s a part of me that I just [00:12:00] wanted to like, sit next to it.
Todd: Just like, just interrupt. So. Whatever his anger is, instead of it being directed towards her to direct it towards me like maybe I can be the recipient of this anger to give this poor woman a break.
Cathy: Well, you’re also saying poor woman,
Todd: she can handle herself just fine. She can, yeah. So she doesn’t need That’s hero energy.
Todd: That’s hero energy. For sure.
Cathy: And so And I think she would have appreciated it. Well, I think what you did was exactly what was helpful, which is I saw that That didn’t sound great. And I’m sorry that you have those experiences. You don’t need to apologize for men. You don’t need to apologize for, you know, if there’s issues with race
Todd: for this man,
Cathy: this you’re apologizing for an experience.
Cathy: You’re not even apologizing. You are acknowledging and validating an experience she had and, and giving her a smile and saying, been there, you know, because we, and, and the thing is she can do it, but it also is nice to have other people. Recognize you
Todd: and what’s so funny is we ordered we each order breakfast burritos.
Todd: We sat there like 20 minutes [00:13:00] and you know, we didn’t have a lot of time and then she came back to 20 minutes later. She’s like, we don’t have enough ingredients for one of the breakfast burritos. So then we got to, so then we got to adjust our order and you know, we, we received poor service. That’s the bottom line
Cathy: from her, but from the rest of the kitchen or whatever.
Todd: But we weren’t mean and maybe it’s because I was having a better day than this guy was. I, you know, it’s just so easy for me to judge this guy and I can make up stories. Like he’s always like that to everybody. It’s probably not true. He’s probably a sweet dude who was having a bad day for all I know. I just find myself scanning the environment.
Todd: Uh, for situations like that. And it’s almost like I want to find them so I can get annoyed and frustrated.
Cathy: Well, I think there is a compare it’s interesting cause it’s a bit of a comparison culture thing. Like I would never do that. I’m a better person. And then there’s also a piece of, of recognizing other people’s experiences.
Cathy: I think there’s an empathy piece. And I think that’s something you have been very focused on for years is recognizing other people’s experiences. Cause this is something you and I talk about all the time when it comes [00:14:00] to, Um, women or especially women of color. I’m always like, notice the experiences they’re having or other men or, you know, whatever your, you’re kind of in the world now of watching and taking care of other people.
Cathy: And so you see it more, you reckon. And I’m not saying you wouldn’t have seen it before, but maybe before you would have been just like, that’s just the way people are, where now you have a different perspective of like, he doesn’t need to do that. And, you know, What it is, is it is a comparison culture in his mind that he is better and more important.
Todd: That’s, that’s the energy I felt. Yes. I, and I’m one of the captains, whatever it is that they wear on their shirt. He’s the highest level. And you’re just a lowly waitress or whatever. And like I said, that’s not what he said. Those are just stories I made up about what it was.
Cathy: Saying to someone, you have to ask me before you put ice in my water.
Cathy: These are not that, that carafe of water was probably made somewhere else in the morning, in the, you know what I mean? Like she’s not anticipating his every need. Now he sat down and said, Hey, [00:15:00] you know what? Ice is really tough for me because some people don’t like really cold water, which I totally get.
Cathy: Is there any way I could get a glass without, but to shame somebody for not reading his mind. Right. And, and you know, what’s interesting, Todd, though, we do this in relationships. We, this is a power dynamic. This is a, you should know. Um, and he probably had, he, one or two experiences. Well, there’s many experiences.
Cathy: He either, Gets that all the time, meaning he overpowers everybody or he doesn’t get it at home or whatever, so he takes it. Exactly. So that would be an interesting process for your blog too. Have you already written it?
Todd: Yeah, but it was just a quick draft I wrote on the plane.
Cathy: Okay.
Todd: Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. So comparison culture.
Todd: So you wrote a Zen parenting moment that I thought was really good. And I highlight the parts that I liked the best. And
Cathy: everybody, when we talk about Zen parenting moments, it’s my sub stack. So if you don’t know what sub stack is, it’s like a version of what blogging used to be or what newsletters used to [00:16:00] be, um, or what MailChimp, I mean, these things are still out there, but sub stack is a really great place to go and follow people’s writing.
Cathy: So all you have to do is, I think, can you, can they scroll below Yeah. So just scroll below and then click on Kathy’s sub stack and you can follow. It’s free. So you get it every Friday, but that’s what Todd is always talking about.
Todd: Um, you title it comparison culture. It takes time and experience for our kids to understand the pitfalls of comparison culture.
Todd: And there’s part of me that wants to read a few highlights, but maybe you just want to start about why you wrote it or how it came to you.
Cathy: Well, obviously there’s a lot of this that I investigated and talked to girls about for my book. So it comes from that, those conversations. Um, You know, especially with girls, comparison culture is everywhere.
Cathy: Every gender, every race, it’s, it’s, you know, we all experience it. But with girls, because of the standards that girls are expected to meet when it comes to fashion and beauty and diet culture, there’s a little more of a targeting. Um, of [00:17:00] women and girls, I believe, and I think the conversations about comparison culture and the normalcy of it, just like what you guys, what you and I talked about at the beginning about how we’re neurobiologically, you know, we compare and see what everybody else has and, and figure out if we’re in the norm.
Cathy: Um, and then there’s that belief right there of, Are we normal? Are we like everybody else? And would I be loved more if I had other things? And looking out at other people and being like, if I had what they had, I’d be happier, which is, I think a big part of it. None of these things are absolutely true.
Cathy: That’s just what our brain is doing. And I, what I talk about is I think we think we’ll talk to our girls once about this and they’ll get it like, Oh my gosh, can you believe my daughter still compares? I’m like, of course I can, because you do too. Everybody does. And so the conversation that what I was really trying to get to is we do need to talk to our girls about these things.
Cathy: For example, I’ll go way back when, when my three daughters were little, it was less about social media cause that wasn’t a thing yet. [00:18:00] Um, and we would stand in line at the grocery store and there’d be magazines everywhere, right? That, you know, there’d be famous models or famous people on magazines. And I would say to my girls, you know, this picture has been retouched on a computer.
Cathy: This is not really the way their skin looks or their body looks. And I showed them videos, um, like short videos that you can find on YouTube. A person’s picture being taken and them being run through a filter and, um, being, their body being changed, you know, it, they’re, it’s being, what’s it, what’s the word I’m looking for?
Cathy: Um, it’s being altered. Photoshop. Photoshop. Thank you. That’s what I’m looking for. They’re being photoshopped. And then once they have a perfected image, then they’re put on the cover. And this used to be even more, um, this was the only way it used to be done. Like I remember Cheryl Strayed was talking about when Wilde came out.
Cathy: They did an article about her. I think it was in something like Vogue and how when she got the magazine and she looked at the pictures of herself, she’s like, that’s not me. Like the pictures were completely altered. [00:19:00] So this used to be a little more, um, of the norm where now there’s a little more, you know, connection to let’s have some, um, some real pictures and some natural.
Cathy: But even when I say that, I, if you guys go on Reels or on TikTok, people will post a TikTok where they’re just talking and it will say below it what filter they’re using. And you, the filters are usually like skin perfection, glow up, like there’s all these ways that people make themselves look better. So when we’re, we’re scrolling through all the, of our tiktoks we’re like, man, everyone’s so beautiful and perfect and it’s ’cause they’re using a filter.
Cathy: So even though it’s maybe changed in, are they telling the, their audience that they’re using
Todd: a filter?
Cathy: You know what, I don’t think that they want to, but I don’t think you can use a filter without it showing up, saying you’re using a filter. Oh, interesting. Okay. And, and I, because I’m like somewhat, I’m, I’m kind of well versed in TikTok, but someone may disagree with me and say no.
Cathy: That’s an advertisement or something. But when [00:20:00] I look at it, it says something like glimmer or I think it says what you’re using. And the one that’s most tends to be most popular is the skin perfection, right? So someone’s skin looks perfect and their eyes look really bright. There was actually one called like glamour where someone you end up looking like a model.
Cathy: Like it’s, it’s crazy. So it’s not real. So we can talk to our girls and our guys, our boys about this is not real, what you’re seeing on social media. And so you’re comparing yourself to something that’s not real, but it’s going to take them time and experience to really understand what comparison culture is.
Cathy: They have to, within the discomfort of comparing themselves to other people is where they begin to figure out who they are and what they value. And I know there are people, adults, people who have been on the earth for a really long time who still haven’t figured it out. So I know that it’s not a fairy tale or a storybook where everybody eventually figures it out at a certain time.
Cathy: But I think if we talk to our girls [00:21:00] about it enough, when I say talk to meaning Tell them everyone’s using filters or talk about what makes you think that, you know, or tell me about those shoes or why they, why you think they would make you feel better. Or when you’re doing a get ready with me, what’s the intention?
Cathy: What are you, are you trying to show off what you have? Are you trying to keep up like, and you’re not doing it in a judgmental tone, but it’s having conversations about it. So then they can develop a more intrinsic perspective on why and when they compare, because if we just tell them to not compare.
Cathy: That doesn’t make any sense.
Todd: Yeah, instead you got to bring them into that conversation that never ends. It
Cathy: never
Todd: ends. There’s probably 85 year old men right now comparing one set of jogging shoes versus his buddy’s set of guys jogging shoes. So it’s not like you arrive at it. Hopefully you, you find a place in yourself where it gives you less energy.
Todd: Like, I mean, I don’t, I’m sure I did this. I don’t know. Like, Shoes used to be a [00:22:00] big deal, I guess. I think they’re even a bigger deal in boy culture now. But before, like, if you got Nikes or Converse or Adidas, those were cool. But if you got your store from Keds or whatever it is, and you got some off brand shoe.
Cathy: You got your store from Keds.
Todd: Got your shoes from Keds.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: And you got some type of off brand shoes, you’re worn as cool. So, um, we all are a part of this. And what’s funny is I remember when Oprah was talking to Eckhart that some people will even, you know, cause most of us think about, and even in your blog, you talk about, you know, people, uh, showing off their purses and their shoes and all these other things.
Todd: And one thing Eckhart said that I thought was really interesting, people will even sometimes show their minimalism. Right. As, you know, so think of somebody who discarded all of their possessions. Right. Yet they think they’re better than somebody who has possessions. So even that’s comparison. Correct. Um, I am better than you because I consume [00:23:00] less.
Todd: Electricity or I live here instead of there or
Cathy: or look at my closet. I’ve narrowed it down to 10 items of clothing. I’m a complete minimalist, you know, everything I have is clean and organized. It’s not
Todd: always about the shiny thing. It’s just about the The need to feel superior than the other.
Cathy: Yeah. And to, and to be doing something that others aren’t or to be, um, to have people want to be like you or to have people look up to you, you know, there’s this desire, like, you know, I find it really interesting.
Cathy: The, um, we’ve talked about this before on the show, but just as a reminder, there’s, um, there’s OOTDs, which stands for, um, outfit of the day. And then there’s get ready with me. So G R W. Um, okay. Two, two different things on, on Tik TOK or on reels that girls and guys do. And it’s funny cause now I see young guys making fun of girls doing it.
Cathy: Like, well, they’ll do a get ready for me in a mocking way. So I don’t necessarily think it’s funny and that [00:24:00] I don’t want to make fun of girls, but I’m seeing people, you know, it’s, uh, it’s been around for a long time, but outfit of the day is basically going through everything you’re wearing and saying the brand names.
Cathy: Okay. And to your point, sometimes people be like, Oh, earrings from Amazon, but then there’ll be like bracelets from David Gehrman, Tiffany. So it’s like, they’ll try and like add in something kind of cheap. Like, Oh, I, you know, I went to a consignment shop and got these. And
Todd: the message. That they may want to convey in that moment is, yeah, I like the shiny thing, but I also can thrift over here.
Todd: So I’m not as superficial as, um, I’m appearing to be.
Cathy: Right. So they literally go through everything. Like they pick up their shoes. This is from, you know, so and so this is from go through each one of their bracelets and everything. So that’s outfit of the day. And then get ready with me is they tell you a story while they do their skincare routine.
Cathy: But the skincare routine is its own thing, right? Because that’s also a comparison culture thing where how [00:25:00] many serums are you using? What are you using on your eyes? What’s your brands that you’re using? What are the things you say you can’t live without? So both OOTD and GRWMs, um, are ways of showing off your stuff.
Todd: So I’ll just own the fact that the way I show off my stuff is by Telling whomever, you know, I meet somebody at a restaurant or a Starbucks and I will compare myself to that teenage girl. Be like, I don’t need any of that. Like I’m comparing myself to her. So it’s so, it’s so, um, slippery and that like, here I am judging them for doing that thing.
Todd: And look how, Look how real I am because I don’t need to show you my outfit of the day. And instead I’m just going to judge this 13 year old girl for doing it. So even I’m comparing myself to her saying, isn’t that stupid?
Cathy: I love, I’m so glad that you brought that up because I think that’s something you’re talking about.
Cathy: You comparing yourself to someone younger, but you and I have had these conversations because sometimes you’re [00:26:00] judgmental of, um, Or, you’re not judgmental, but you’ve had judgments about, you don’t need to get your hair right, or you don’t need to put on makeup, or you, why do you worry about what you’re wearing for a podcast or whatever?
Cathy: And you and I live in two very different realities. You get to throw on a hat and maybe not shave, and nobody says a thing about what you look like because you’re, you’re a good looking guy and you’re, you know, you’re, you look like a guy. I’m judged on different things. I am judged on how well I’m put together.
Cathy: I’m judged. And sometimes I don’t care. My hair’s in a ponytail, whatever. I’m not, it’s not about that. I always have to look perfect. I don’t strive for that ever, but there I, what, what frustrates me is less about how I look and more about making sure you understand that you’re comparing apples to oranges.
Cathy: You are showing up and being like, look how low key I am, but it’s not fair because I don’t have that luxury. Um, and, and I choose it sometimes and I just deal with whatever the fallout is, you know, people like, ah, you don’t look nice. I’m like, I know I didn’t get ready, [00:27:00] but it’s not, we just don’t live in the same world.
Todd: So, um, as we’re talking about compare, you know, just comparison culture and stuff, stuff makes us happy, right? Stuff.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: And I don’t remember one of my teachers or books I read or whatever. It’s like, let’s say I love, Corvettes. Okay. Which I don’t, but let’s say I did. Okay. And I make up a story that if I got a Corvette, I’d be happy and may, and, and two things.
Todd: One is if I bought a Corvette and I love Corvettes, it would make me happy for a short while, but I think it would fade and dissipate, dissipate. Over time, like a brand new toy is fun and exciting. And then all of a sudden it wears off. Um, but underneath it is like, what do, what do I want to achieve by buying a Corvette?
Todd: And what I want to achieve is, uh, a sense of self confidence or a self of a sense of contentment or whatever. So the pivot is instead of thinking about the thing, the Corvette instead, think about [00:28:00] the feeling. And is there a way that you can. Manifest this feeling with or without the Corvette. Do you know what I mean?
Cathy: Oh, I do. And I think that’s always the, the point that you’re making is something that’s really important in the world of, um, therapy or just in the world of self awareness is understanding that when we are trying to go after experiences or people or, you know, certain clothes to your point, we’re just trying to feel a certain way.
Cathy: We’re trying to either numb out. One feeling so we can, you know, not deal with that or we’re trying to bring in a feeling we haven’t had. And, you know, I would say the only difference, the only thing I would say about what you just said is that it’s often less about having the Corvette and more about thinking about wanting the Corvette and that we’re like, Oh my gosh, when I get that Corvette, it’s going to feel so good and so amazing.
Cathy: And I can’t wait. And I’m getting it in two months and then I’m going to pick it up. And this, you know, people always have a story for things like this. I found this guy. [00:29:00] Yeah. They’re going to meet me halfway. It’s this great deal. No one else has this car. And then it’s about the process of doing it. And then once you get the Corvette, it doesn’t feel quite as fun.
Cathy: It’s so it’s like, you know, how many, you know, E True Hollywood stories are behind the musics have we all seen. And for those of you who are younger than us, it’s something that used to be on VH1 and on the E. Entertainment channel. And there were stories about bands. What does every band say? It was not when we became famous.
Cathy: Yeah, it was the process. More fun
Todd: when we were struggling. Right.
Cathy: So the, it’s the process, it’s the journey. And that’s why we keep trying to, we, but we keep trying to buy things and get things. You know, I’m seeing that with women, you know, my age who are now Putting a lot of things in their faces or, you know, changing a lot of parts of their body because they’re like, I want to feel a certain way.
Cathy: I want to look a certain way. And I get it. Like women get to do whatever they want. Like this is not a judgment of don’t do that. My conversation about it [00:30:00] is it, it often never feels like enough. They keep going. They keep doing something else. This made me feel this way, but not enough. So I’m going to keep doing
Todd: it.
Todd: It’s kind of like just to take it off of like facial surgery or body tattoos. What I’ve heard from Pete, I’m not a tattoo guy. I don’t have any, you don’t have any, we have a bunch of family members who do. But what I’ve heard about tattoos is once you get the first one, it’s really hard to stop. Oh, really?
Todd: Number one, like, yeah. And then, you know, and obviously there is a place where you stop, but like I have coworkers at JBI and like, you know, he just started with something on his calf and now he’s like, got it everywhere in his body. Like it’s just. It just becomes, and I don’t know if it’s because I like this one so much, I want another one, or I’m getting bored of this one, so I need something different to get me going.
Cathy: I’m willing to bet it’s a similar experience to what we’re talking about, which is, I was so excited to get this. It means a lot. It represents me. I think tattoos have a lot of depth to them and why people get them. Like, you know, Todd just said, neither of us have them, but it’s no judgment of people who do, because [00:31:00] I understand like, You know, wanting to have something that reminds you of your life or your experience or reminds you to breathe or reminds you of gratitude.
Cathy: Like these are good things. Um, and so I understand why people do it, but I think it’s the process of coming up with something like I, this is so not the same, but I’m thinking about it. Like I, as, as a writer, I get so excited about the process and idea of writing. What am I going to do next? What am I going to do next?
Cathy: And that process is awesome. I have a book out that I need to market probably for another couple of years, but I’m already thinking about what I’m going to write next. It’s not the end. It’s the beginning. And so with a tattoo, it’s like, Ooh, what, what represents me? And then once you get it, you’re probably like, okay, what else?
Cathy: Um, and so, and the thing is, is. Again, it’s not about do this or don’t do it. It’s about, are you aware of why you’re doing it? And that’s all people need to be, you know, as long as you’re aware. And this is, so let’s go back to what I wrote about [00:32:00] with talking to our daughters. And we’ll just talk, it’s our sons too.
Cathy: Boys are comparing their bodies and everything is just as well. Um, their hair, you know, is my hair look like this guy? You know, do I have the necklace this guy has? Whatever. Is that we talk to them about it, but it will be a process. of them learning their own value is they’re going to kind of throughout their lives play a game of am I enough?
Cathy: I don’t feel like enough. Now I’m enough. And then they’re going to go through that cycle over and over again and normalizing that for them rather than saying, don’t compare or you don’t appreciate, you know, don’t you appreciate what you have? We can appreciate what we have and still want more. Like I used to have, I mean, Todd, I think you can attest to this.
Cathy: I. When I like something and I feel like it’s something I enjoy, I don’t just want to do it, I want to teach it. I want to learn it. I want to be the best at it. I think I’m better now than I was a decade ago. [00:33:00] But, you know, you and I would watch someone speak and we’d be like, it’s not about being better than that person, we’re not going to call them and say we’re better than you, We get really influenced by our envy of somebody else doing something we think we could do, right?
Cathy: Or when I was becoming a yoga teacher and I’d go to someone’s yoga class and I’d be like, I wouldn’t do that. I would do it this way. And I want to, or the envy or comparison of they’re really good at this and I’m not as good. And so we all have this need to Optimize, to become better, to be influenced, and envy and comparing is not always a negative.
Cathy: Sometimes it propels us forward into what we want, but if it becomes all we do, then that’s when it starts to overtake our lives.
Todd: Small pivot back to the artificial nature of things. Yes. Um, there’s one exception in your life I want to point out.
Cathy: Okay.
Todd: You always wanted a Jeep.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: You got to, we got, uh, we bought a nice used Jeep [00:34:00] four or five years ago, whatever.
Todd: That thing still brings you as much happiness as I think it did on day one. So my question to you is, cause that’s, that’s bucking the system a little bit. Most stuff fades. Yeah.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: What is it about the Jeep that makes you so happy?
Cathy: Because I get the same thing every time I drive in it. I, I’m in the open air.
Cathy: Um, the, one of the things about the Jeep, because like you said, we got it used and everything, but one of the things I had to have was a really good stereo. It’s a place I can listen to music really loud. Um, To your point, it’s something I’ve wanted since I was a kid. Like, you know, I wanted a convertible since the time I was in eighth grade, and I’ve never had one.
Cathy: I’ve driven them before or rented them, but now this is something, you know, I got it when I was 50. When did I get the Jeep? 51.
Oh,
Cathy: I, I love it, but I don So what is it? Don’t love having a Jeep because I want people to see me in it. It’s not about I, it’s not about how I look, it’s about how I feel in it. [00:35:00] So do see how we’re getting to the feeling,
Todd: right?
Todd: So what is the feeling
Cathy: free?
Todd: Freedom.
Cathy: And I feel like me. Like that’s something that sometimes clothes and haircuts and everything can do is it’s not about I want to be like other people. I want to be like me. Like if I, when I’ve done like wise woman past life regressions, which,
Todd: you know, like we’ve all done.
Cathy: Okay. Well, I’ve done a lot of like past life stuff. I’ve done a lot of like wise woman vision boards. I’ve done a lot of meditation around my own self awareness and everything. And I’m always in an open car. Like that’s just, I just like, I mean, I took Skylar to school this morning. It was 48 degrees and the roof is off.
Cathy: Like, that’s just how I like to be. Plus
Todd: it’s got a sweet heating system in it.
Cathy: Right. And that’s the thing is like, that’s what I mean. It’s so, and it’s such a like. It’s a base. I mean, it’s got the nice screen, so I have GPS and stuff, but it’s super basic. It’s not like there’s anything. It’s not about the bells and whistles.
Cathy: It’s about I’m outside and I [00:36:00] feel like me, period.
Todd: Outside in your car. Um, all right. So I want to pivot one more time. Okay. Towards the end of your blog.
Cathy: Okay.
Todd: You say it often takes difficult experiences for our kids to discover their sense of self. If we try to eliminate their discomfort by buying them everything they think they need to.
Todd: To fit in or by constantly taking them out, talking them out of their negative feelings. They miss the opportunity to develop a new, more intrinsic perspective. Yes, I just wrote that and I know it’s true, but I don’t always feel this way. There’s nothing I want more than to take away my girl’s pain as quickly as possible.
Todd: Watching them struggle, especially when they doubt their worth or feel unloved is one of the most difficult challenges of parenting.
Cathy: Yeah. Yeah, because I didn’t want to be a disingenuous because all of that stuff I said is really hard. Yeah. And I think when my girls are like, they’re not, I mean, of course the girls like to get clothes or a new shirt or something, but they’re not like super focused on, I need this thing.
Cathy: Um, but there [00:37:00] have been times. Well, versus like
Todd: relationship stuff, like if they had a hard day at school with a friend, like it’s super hard to
Cathy: not get involved.
Todd: Well, yeah. Well, I mean, it’s harder for you to not get involved because they call you and not me. So it’s, it’s right in your face. Whereas for me, the only time they’ll call me in that situation is if you’re not available, which is
Cathy: Todd’s like, I’m so love it when you’re not home
Todd: somewhere between one and 2 percent of the time.
Todd: I do. I do love it. We’ve actually had podcasts about that. Um, well,
Cathy: so let me, let me just. Say something on that is that I think the problem. So for those of you who, when your girls or your guys say, I’ve got to have this thing, or I need these shoes, or I have to have this sweatshirt or whatever. Sometimes it’s cool if it’s their birthday or it’s a holiday or something, you know, and they’re getting a gift and it’s something they wanted.
Cathy: That’s awesome. We’ve all done that as parents, but the belief that they absolutely need these things to be happy is a place that we want to confront in ourselves. Before we jump to that conclusion, because if our [00:38:00] kids say, I have to have these shoes, or I need 10 more bows for my hair, or I need this, this Brandy Melville shirt, and we say, okay, I’ll get it for you.
Cathy: We are then teaching them and buying into that belief system. Now there’s a lot of nuance in there because Like I said, sometimes we get things, these things as gifts and holiday gifts and our girls end up getting a bunch of stuff they want. But the belief that everything that they ask for is what they need and that we accommodate that need, we are then teaching them through our behavior that they’re right, that these things are necessary for them to be worthy.
Cathy: So we want to buck that system a little bit occasionally. Like one thing that I really appreciated that Todd told the girls, um, Because, you know, again, they’re, I don’t know, the girls like to shop, but they’re not big shoppers. Like sometimes when I talk to moms or other daughters about their shopping together, I’m like, that’s not really, that’s not really what we do that much.
Cathy: And maybe it’s because, and this is what I was getting to, Todd told the girls when they were young, [00:39:00] if you go to a consignment store or more something like Salvation Army, It’s more like a thrift store, goodwill, goodwill, you can get whatever you want and I’ll pay for it.
Todd: I’ll buy anything. I’ll buy anything from Salvation Army or goodwill.
Cathy: So shirts are like two bucks, pants are like, so Todd’s like, I’ll pay for that. So the girls do that and come home with a, you know, things that I think the person who enjoys that the most is JC.
Todd: Well and you know, maybe half the stuff they never use or use once and I just take it back to goodwill. Like I just feel like a better, right.
Todd: Consumer that way.
Cathy: And speaking of another thing you can use for those of you who like to like order clothes online, there is a consignment online consignment shop called thread up that I’ve used for years. Um, and you can like, they have everything they, and again, it’s not as easy as going to a Nordstrom website.
Cathy: You know, it’s not laid out well, cause it’s a consignment. you know,
Todd: online
Cathy: consignment shop, but it’s very nice to [00:40:00] get, you know, spend a hundred dollars and get 10 items in your box that are nice. Um, but anyway, we digress, but I think that kind of, so what are you teaching with that? You’re saying if you really need something, here’s a place you can go.
Cathy: It’s better for the earth, you know, it’s less focused on keeping up with trends.
Todd: I mean, what’s that store that has this really good stuff that, uh, the yoga. Lululemon Lululemon. Really? I think it’s really high quality stuff. I, but, you know, pair of pants, there’s like a hundred dollars For real? Mm-Hmm. . Like really?
Todd: And I know I’m such an old, like, grumpy old man here, but they can get six pairs of pants, 10 pairs of pants for the same amount.
Cathy: But they’re not Lululemon pants. No, they’re not. So they’re, but
Todd: what’s funny is you will sometimes find the gold. And in the consignment shop too.
Cathy: Yeah. If you’re a good thrifter, you can be like, Oh my gosh, I can’t believe someone got rid of this.
Cathy: And I feel that way. I just cleaned out my closet and there were a few things with tags on it, which makes me sick to my [00:41:00] stomach. Cause it’s like, Oh, like, you know, it’s very hard to, to give these things up, but if you don’t wear it, it makes sense. And, and. And that’s the thing, everybody, like, let’s have nuance in here.
Cathy: I think the whole conversation we’re having about comparison culture is let’s not be too overjudgmental. Let’s use all, let’s use our judgment and our thoughtfulness and our envy and our desire to compare all in this like gray area, let’s make it nuanced and let’s discern a little bit, because if you have Lululemon, that’s fine.
Cathy: I have a pair of Lululemon pants. I’ve won. And if you have like a really nice expensive dress or there’s really nice earrings that you wear, it’s, it’s cool. It’s cool. It can be enjoyable to have some things that you really love and that are nice. But do you believe that those things make you who you are?
Cathy: That’s the messaging that we want to relay to our girls is they may have things that they really adore and they love to wear. Um, and that’s lovely. That’s enjoyment of being a human being, right? I, you know, again, like you were talking about the, my Jeep, like, I love that. Right. It’s something [00:42:00] that I aspired to and I really wanted to have.
Cathy: And then, but there’s also like then, and again, we would never be able to do this financially, but then do I go out and get 10 Jeeps or it does that defeat the whole purpose of why I’m getting it? You know what I mean? And then also, you know, the, I think the bigger message in the blog that I, or the sub stack that I wrote was.
Cathy: The belief system, really what’s underneath everything when I talk to girls is the belief system that the person who has the golden goose shoes and the lululemon pants and the David Yurman bracelets is a happier person. And that’s where I have to talk to girls about that’s a misconception because I have met with many of those girls.
Cathy: I was actually just telling some of my friends when I used to work at, um, Lurie Children’s Hospital in the psychiatric program, the majority of kids that I saw were either kids that were very, very wealthy from very wealthy communities, or there was also an extreme of a lot of foster children who were in and out of the system or who came from neighborhoods that were underdeveloped and, you know, [00:43:00] disenfranchised.
Cathy: And there wasn’t a lot of in between. And so a lot of the kids that were coming into our program who were really struggling, I don’t think a lot of kids in their school would know that, you know, they would think, Oh, well, they have all this money. They have all these things. And this is, you know, It’s, it’s just things to, I’m going to go back to what Todd brought up before.
Cathy: It’s the feelings that we have that make us feel good. Not the stuff.
Todd: Yeah. And so sometimes. Stuff is a vehicle to the feeling. Correct. So let’s just skip the stuff and go to the feelings, which is so easy for me to say. And you know, talking about comparison, like here I find myself comparing myself to the jerk at the airport yesterday, right?
Todd: Right. And if I’m really doing my work, which is, can I be open minded and empathic and curious about everything? Two things. One is the guy may have had a really crappy day where he’s talked about that. How is it that I can sometimes be a
jerk?
Todd: Cause I could be a jerk, but it’s just so much easier for me to point out that this guy’s a jerk.
Todd: Um, so [00:44:00] it’s, you know, It’s just the idea of whenever we compare anybody or anything, there is an opportunity to learn. And that’s what I’m in a really conscious place. Most of the time I’m like, screw learning. I just want to judge this guy. But if I really want to take a step back and as I’m thinking about how I want to like, you know, assemble this blog, I think some of it’s going to be like, Yeah.
Todd: From this really kind of closed minded place, this guy is just a complete jerk. And then from this other place, like, there’s an opportunity for me even to learn about myself in how I reacted to it. So.
Cathy: Great. And that is exactly it. Like I. My deep thoughts, like when yesterday when I was at brunch and that man wasn’t very nice to the waitress in the story you’re telling me, my deep thoughts become, where did that person learn that?
Cathy: Where did they learn that was okay? And what are they trying to do in this moment? Are they trying to discharge their negative feelings and project it onto other people? Are they feeling less than? [00:45:00] Are they trying to demonstrate power? I get very deep into where are they right now? But somewhere along the line, they were taught.
Cathy: Shown someone role modeled that this is behavior. That’s okay. It’s
Todd: tolerable.
Cathy: It’s exactly. And because it was interesting that you said your guy was by himself now he’s in his pilot’s outfit. So again, there is a power thing there, but like the, the two men who were sitting next to me, I was thinking to myself, that man is probably trying to not show off, but demonstrate to the other man that he is going to speak up and have power.
Cathy: Like there’s always, And we’ll never really know for sure. I’m just, I just think about these things all the time. I, I can’t watch things like, for example, anybody watching the Menendez, um, show the Lyle and Eric Menendez, Ryan Murphy show about their experiences. I know you are. And I’ve been watching it for this show.
Cathy: I think it’s called monsters. Which is, right away, we’re just deciding how we feel about them, aren’t we?
Todd: Yeah, we’re going to [00:46:00] make these two kids less than human.
Cathy: Right, but I, I have been, because this happened in the 90s right before the OJ trial, this whole thing of they killed their parents. And I’ve been kind of watching this unwind for decades.
Cathy: They’re listening to their experiences, all that kind of thing. And so this, this movie, this fictionalized version, Um, based on true events, as they say, um, has been really interesting for me because it gives all this new perspective of why they did what they did, but you know what came out today? Well, it’s actually, this podcast comes out October 8th, but October 7th is another Lyle and Eric Menendez documentary on Netflix.
Cathy: I know, but what I will say is I watch all this stuff as I’ve shared before, I love shows about true crime and cults and stuff, but I watch it because I, what’s going on? Why? Where did they, where did they learn this? Why? What was going on in the family? It’s so, it’s not to make my, um, desire to see it seem better than other people’s because it’s just TV and I, and I just like watching it, [00:47:00] but there is a deep, um, um, It’s interesting, right?
Cathy: Why do people do what they do, Todd, right? Why do human beings do what they do?
Todd: I have no, I mean, it is interesting and there’s, I mean, that’s part of the reasons why we do this podcast is to understand human behavior and there’s books and everything else that gets written to ask the very question that you’re asking.
Todd: So,
Cathy: and the, the thing that’s interesting is the Maya Angelou quote, which I’m not going to say it exactly right, but it’s something to the effect of anything that is of human beings is of me is that we like to do an us and them, like they did this, this person’s like this. I would never be like this, these people, but human behavior is human behavior.
Cathy: And if one person can do it, another person can do it. And why does it happen? You know, like I’m, It’s very, um, it’s, it’s just interesting. It’s, it stimulates my thinking. Yeah. I’m, I get, you know, I’ve been, everybody’s been telling me to watch this cute rom com on Netflix, which I heard about on Dax’s show, because it’s [00:48:00] Kristen Bell and Adam Brody.
Cathy: I think it’s called nobody wants this. And Todd was gone for like four days and I could have just binged this whole show, but I would rather watch these like crime. It hits
Todd: a part of your brain needs attention. Yes. I don’t know. It’s a feeling.
Cathy: But I also like one thing, sorry, I know you’re probably trying to close up shop here, but when I’m listening to podcasts, I think it’s interesting cause like I’ll start the morning listening to like psychology type podcasts.
Cathy: Like if it’s about human behavior or, um, narcissism or it’s more like for therapists, right. Or for people who are interested in, you know, cognition and how people think. And I’m listening to those and then I’ll listen to a whole true crime podcast after that. And then I’ll listen to a. Entertainment podcasts.
Cathy: And, and they’re all so different, but there’s a thread, which is human behavior, right? Like what, what is your thread with everything you listen to?
Todd: Um, some of it is the need to make sure I know what’s going on in the world with [00:49:00] politics. Yeah,
Cathy: I do that as well.
Todd: Um, some of it is to laugh. You know, we love the rewatchables
Cathy: true.
Cathy: Yeah. Yes. True.
Todd: And, uh, I, I just started watching the Vince McMahon documentary. He’s the guy who was a wrestler promoter guy.
Cathy: I saw the document. I didn’t watch it, but I saw it on Netflix
Todd: and I was never a big, a big. professional wrestler guy, but it’s an interesting documentary because I, I, because I didn’t pay attention to it.
Todd: I didn’t remember all these things that happened. Like Hulk Hogan turned bad. I, I think I remember that Hulk Hogan used to be like
Cathy: the
Todd: protagonist and then he switched and I’m like, I don’t remember that, but that’s pretty cool. Like, so I’m, I’m, I’m getting like 25, 30 years of professional wrestling compressed into five or six.
Cathy: What do you think professional wrestling does for, I know that there’s women who watch it, but it’s primarily men and boys. What is professional wrestling give to men and boys? What is the comparison culture there?
Todd: Um, I don’t know what the comparison culture is, but obviously there’s some violence, [00:50:00] which is interesting.
Todd: Um, really interesting. Good guy, bad guy storylines, kind of
Cathy: like cops and robbers type of
Todd: thing. So hero and villain. Um, Entertainment, lots of grandiosity. Yeah. Yeah. These guys are all like buff and everything. So body image.
Cathy: Yeah. Because that’s interesting. Like why people like what they like. I don’t know.
Cathy: I mean, I grew up at the time of wrestling, you know, just like you, I know nothing about wrestling
Todd: and I’m only halfway through it. But Vince McMahon basically bullied his way through at the beginning. His dad used to do it and he kind of bullied his way through in a way where he was the
Okay. His
Todd: WWF, I think it was called, was the guy.
Todd: And then a guy by the name of Ted Turner decided to start competing against him and really just made Vince McMahon’s company.
Cathy: What was Ted Turner’s company called? WWE?
Todd: Uh, I don’t remember, but it was the one that was on TNT and because Ted Turner [00:51:00] had all this money behind him, he started paying all these wrestlers to come over to his side.
Cathy: It’s a little like that golf thing. Yeah.
Todd: Yeah. Yeah. It’s kind of like the Live Tour. Live Tour. Yeah. Different, but yeah. So it’s just interesting. So, I don’t know.
Cathy: All right. Well, thank you. Any
Todd: parting thoughts, my darling? Well,
Cathy: I have this whole list of ways to deal with comparison culture. Um, that I’ll, I’ll just say them and everyone can just leave
Todd: and read more about it.
Todd: Maybe synopsis of it. I
Cathy: will, um, take an opposite action. So if you’re like, sometimes I want to be snarky when I see something and I want to judge it, and I want to cut and paste and send it to my friends and be like, doesn’t this person suck? And I instead just won’t do that. Okay, so like take an opposite action.
Cathy: Radical acceptance, have a moment of accepting where you are and appreciating what you have. Um, they’re, and again, they’re separating these out. But I think mindfulness is how we practice radical acceptance, you know, being in the moment rather than being like, Oh, I’d be happier if I was there. There’s no truth in that whatsoever.
Cathy: Really questioning that gratitude. Um, [00:52:00] I’ve gotten back to writing my gratitudes. Thankfully I make my students do it all the time. And then I go through these. It’s like months where I forget to do my gratitudes and they really shift your thinking. So making sure you focus on that and then having a mantra and you don’t need to call it a mantra.
Cathy: Having something you say to yourself, like I lately, when I think I understand what people are thinking about me or something, or they, or I believe that someone has something better or easier, um, my thing that I say to myself is that’s not true. You don’t know. That’s true. And I just try and talk my, it’s like I have a, a louder parenting voice now that I’m in my 50s.
Cathy: Like the parent that lives inside of me is very questioning of my insecurities. I can’t get rid of my insecurity, but I can question it. And I can be like, that’s not true.
Todd: You know what my mantra
Cathy: is, sweetie? What?
Yeah. Well, you know, that’s just like, uh, your opinion, man.
Cathy: It’s exactly, the dude says it better than most.
Cathy: It’s
Todd: actually a really, If you, like, you can really [00:53:00] look at that quote and be like, there’s a lot of wisdom in there.
Cathy: The dude is philosophy.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: Like, I, I know that sometimes we read way too much into things, but if you really watch the Big Lebowski and just kind of pull out his quotes and they’re all meant to be funny and they sound like that.
Cathy: But it’s philosophy. It’s a way of life. So, um, so anyway, that’s just a little bit to, uh, think about as we finish up here.
Todd: Um, all right. Well, and, um, I don’t know. Join Team Zen. Pre order Kathy’s book. Yes. Join us at ZenCon 25 in January. All the links are below. It’s going to be off the hook. Keep trying.
[00:54:00]
