Understanding Labels and Their Impact on Our Daughters: Key Takeaways from Zen Parenting Radio

Welcome back to another insightful episode of Zen Parenting Radio! In this episode, hosts Todd and Cathy Adams, dive deep into the significance of labels and how they impact our daughters. Episode 784, titled “Danger of Labels – Conversations That Shape Our Daughters,” explores the delicate balance of how labels can both positively and negatively influence a child’s self-perception and behavior. Let’s break down the key takeaways from their enlightening discussion.

Why Understanding Labels Matters

Todd and Cathy begin this episode by discussing the often-overlooked dangers of labeling children, whether those labels are positive or negative. Cathy emphasizes the importance of allowing children to explore their own identities rather than imposing a predefined label upon them. This becomes particularly crucial during the formative years when a child is figuring out who they are and who they want to become.

The Impact of Labels on Self-Understanding

The conversation highlights how labels such as “the smart one” or “the athletic one” can confine children to narrow identities. According to Cathy, while labels may provide children with a sense of belonging or purpose, they can also become limitations. Todd adds that even labels that seem positive at first, like being called the “golden child,” can impose undue pressure and unrealistic expectations.

Cathy shares an anecdote about a 15-year-old girl who lived in constant fear of disappointing her mother. This fear often stems from the weight of carrying a label and the implicit expectations that come with it. Such dynamics can lead to long-term issues, including chronic stress, a distorted sense of self-worth, and avoidance of risk-taking due to fear of failure.

Real Conversations: The Key to Emotional Wellbeing

One of the core themes of this episode is the critical role of real conversations between parents and their daughters. Cathy argues that genuine dialogue allows children to voice their true feelings and experiences, fostering a safe space for them to explore different facets of their identities without fear of judgement or rejection.

Starting with a Personal Touch

Todd and Cathy believe in beginning these conversations with a personal touch. Todd shares how he consciously avoids imposing his interests, like his love for the White Sox, on their daughters, allowing them to develop their own preferences. This approach promotes a healthy family dynamic where each member’s individuality is respected and celebrated.

The Importance of Being Mindful

Cathy underscores the need for parents to be mindful of not projecting their own unfulfilled desires and anxieties onto their children. It’s essential for parents to recognize that their children’s actions aren’t always about them. Sometimes, kids are simply figuring life out on their own terms.

Real Conversations and Critical Thinking

The episode transitions into the importance of teaching children critical thinking, a recurring theme in Cathy’s new book. Cathy explains that instilling critical thinking skills in our daughters is vital not just for academic success, but also for their overall emotional and mental wellbeing. These skills empower children to question the world around them, understand diverse perspectives, and navigate life’s complexities more effectively.

The Finland Example

Highlighting a segment from a CBS Sunday Morning show, Todd and Cathy discuss how Finland educates children to recognize fake news and disinformation from a young age. This model, they argue, should be adopted more broadly to prepare children for an increasingly complex and information-saturated world.

Moving Beyond Labels

Towards the end of the episode, Cathy speaks about her new book, “Restoring Our Girls: How Real Conversations Shape Our Daughter’s Lives, Help Them With Challenges, and Remind Them That They Matter.” She outlines the structure of the book, which is designed to guide parents through various aspects of effective communication with their daughters.

Know Me and Connect With Me

One of the concepts discussed is the “Know Me” chapter where Cathy encourages parents to move beyond superficial labels and truly understand their daughters. Recognizing and validating their children’s experiences and emotions can help girls develop a robust sense of self and confidence.

Conclusion: Fostering a Healthier Family Dynamic

In their heartfelt discussion, Todd and Cathy remind parents that fostering a supportive and understanding environment at home is crucial for the healthy development of their children. Labels can be limiting, but real conversations have the power to break through these barriers and create a space where children feel truly known and accepted.

Thank you for joining us for this episode summary of Zen Parenting Radio. Stay tuned for next week’s discussion on the “Connect With Me” chapter of Cathy’s book, where we’ll delve even further into how meaningful conversations can enrich the lives of our daughters.

For more details, you can check out the full episode and consider pre-ordering Cathy’s book. Together, let’s strive to foster environments that celebrate individuality and promote emotional wellbeing for our children.

[00:00:00]

Todd: Here we go. My name is Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number, I just wrote it down. I’ve already since forgotten. Can you take a guess what number it is, sweetie? Uh, no, it’s somewhere in the 700s. 784. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto that we’ve had for a long Maybe since day one.

Todd: I’m not sure. Who knows? Uh, the best predictor of a child’s well being is a parent’s self understanding. On today’s show, uh, we are going to talk about your book a little bit. A little bit. Just a tease. An aspect of it. Right. Um, and then, but first we’re going to start with, um, something. Well,

Cathy: can I say that better?[00:01:00]

Cathy: Cause people who like join in, they decide whether or not they want to listen. We’re not just going to talk about my book. We’re going to talk about real things that kids have said to me that I put In the book, meaning things that they would like their parents to know. So specifically

Todd: daughters,

Cathy: yes, specifically daughters, even though some of these I don’t think are that gender specific.

Cathy: I think some of them have gender specificity inside of them about why they struggle with these things, but. I think the truth is, I can’t imagine that all genders aren’t affected by some of these things. So we’re just going to share just one of the many, many, many, um, things that kids told me.

Todd: Um, and first, you and I, uh, woke up yesterday morning and it was Sunday.

Todd: And you and I typically, um, like to just slowly ease into the day on a Sunday. If you can, if possible. Not always possible. And yesterday was one of those days. So I put on our old man programming, our old woman programming CBS Sunday [00:02:00] morning.

Cathy: Yeah. I love it.

Todd: And I remember that as a kid. And I, it’s, you know, it’s the one with, It’s back in the old days, it was Charles Kuralt, I think was his name and um,

Cathy: now it’s Jane Polly.

Cathy: Now

Todd: it’s Jane Polly. And there’s a certain comfort just to the, the trumpet, it’s probably a trumpet that starts out. Some of you may know it and I could try to play it for you in a second. But anyways, um, what I thought was sad is the reason I think we like this show is we grew up with it. Correct. And now that our tea, our, our consumption of video lends itself to our phones, like, it’s not like we were watching this and like when we were watching this when I was a little kid, it was in the kitchen or in the living room and it was just on.

Todd: And sometimes our parents were watching it and sometimes it was just on in the background. Our kids are not ever going to hear us. Play CBS Sunday morning.

Cathy: True. I would say though, that there are, because I watched it and our phones are all [00:03:00] connected to our TVs and they like spy on us and know what we watch.

Cathy: I have seen clips from it. Yes. So it showed up in TikTok and Reels. So kids do have access to this show, but I mean, let’s be honest, like. CBS Sunday Morning is targeted at older adults, and that is why we remember it from our childhood, because our parents were watching it, and we were like, what is this old person show?

Cathy: And then now we’re like, oh, this is pretty good, because two reasons. Number one, all the stories are relevant to people our age. Yeah. And then number two, all the hosts, all the interviewers are people our age or older. So it’s just a very, it’s just built for us. Yes.

Todd: We got to play the whole thing.[00:04:00]

Todd: It’s funny how certain sounds just bring you back.

Cathy: They do. And you know, I kind of, it’s CBS obviously, and that’s where 60 minutes is as well. And it’s kind of reminds me the format is like a lighter early morning 60 minutes. Yeah. Because there’s an entertainment, um, Part, like where they’ll focus on someone in entertainment, there’s, or, or arts.

Cathy: And then there’s, um, usually a political aspect. And then there’s usually like a, some kind of global thing. So they like the way that they do it is they make sure that everybody watching has something that’ll be interesting. So one of the stories you wanted to probably get to.

Todd: Yeah. Um, so in Finland, which is one of the three Scandinavian countries, I’m Norwegian, and then you got Sweden next to the Norway, and then just to the east of that, you got.

Todd: Finland. And I’ve always had this kind of like, I don’t know, warmth towards those three countries. I don’t know why. I’ve been to Sweden and Norway. I’ve never been to [00:05:00] Finland. Well,

Cathy: you do know why, because you just said you’re Norwegian.

Todd: I know, but I, I, yes. And maybe that’s why, but I just feel like the Scandinavian countries are more into nature.

Todd: I feel like they’re, as we’ll share in this segment, they’re into education. They do it a little bit differently. I don’t think Denmark is considered a Scandinavian nation, but we’ve talked about how they have a healthy version of sexuality because they start talking to their, they have taught, yeah, they start talking to the kids about sex education when they’re like four years old in schools.

Todd: And this is just kind of a, kind of a branch off of what it is that some of these countries are doing. So this one, um, I’m just going to read like the two, two Two sentence paragraph, uh, the two sentence paragraph, two sentence summary on what is, so in Finland, they’re teaching, what, do you remember how old these kids were?

Cathy: Well, they, the kids that we were watching were in fourth grade, but they started when they were four years old.

Todd: Yes. Uh, and they, they teach their kids on how to recognize [00:06:00] fake news. and disinformation. And it says being able to identify hoaxes, avoid scams, and debunk propaganda is a civic skill required in today’s information society.

Todd: And they go on to kind of add like a 10 minute segment about what, how it is that they’re teaching these kids. And as you and I were watching it yesterday morning, I’m just like, how is it that this isn’t part of the curriculum for our kids? Because I think, you know, we’re going to teach them how to calculate the volume of a prism.

Todd: Which unless you’re going to be an engineering student, isn’t really going to help you that much. But this over here of how to scan our news consumption through a lens of critical thinking, it’s not being taught and maybe it is, and I’m not sure of it.

Cathy: Oh, it’s definitely not. It isn’t in the way that they’re teaching it because what they’re teaching is disinformation.

Cathy: And as you said, they’re teaching them how to think critically about what they’re reading and where they’re getting their news. And our country would struggle with [00:07:00] that because there are a lot of news networks that are disinformation that people call news. And so how do we in our school system come to an agreement?

Cathy: About what is disinformation when I don’t know if it’s half the country or what believes that what they’re seeing when it’s really just opinion and for clicks and for, um, to, you know, to, uh, shore up a base and create fear. That’s what people call news. So we, our country would have difficulty coming into a classroom and saying, here’s how we’re going to monitor disinformation because we’re not in agreement.

Todd: Yeah. We’re so divided.

Cathy: Yeah. And so it’s unfortunate. Now we could do it in other ways, talking about noticing deep fakes and, you know, we could have conversations about this, but one of the reasons that Finland makes this such top priority is they border Russia. So there’s a whole Russian propaganda campaign that is being targeted there.

Cathy: You know, Finland’s being targeted and they have to protect themselves because [00:08:00] of their proximity. So do we like, I don’t care about proximity anymore. We’re a global economy. You know, it doesn’t really matter where you are because we’re all connected to each other, but it was, somewhat defeating in that I think we recognized while watching it.

Cathy: How could we come to agreement on this? I mean, in the time that my girls have been in school, there have been people in my community yelling about certain books that I think are just absolutely necessary. And people are like, no, we can’t read that book because this is this, or you’re pushing your agenda or this is So how are we going to agree?

Cathy: Yeah. on what is disinformation.

Todd: Yeah. So the reason, you know, we’re just going to talk about this for a minute and then we’re going to move on. But the reason I thought it was important that we bring this up is one, our, our, our kids classroom curriculum is not teaching this. So it’s our job to do that.

Correct.

Todd: And you know, you and I have talked a little bit about it, but probably it’s not as much attention as maybe I could have. I’ll just use an I statement. Um, and then maybe [00:09:00] just, if you’re interested, I’ll include a link to this news report in the show notes. So you can just, either you can pause this.

Todd: right now and listen to it, um, or watch it on your phone. Um, but I’m just going to play a quick like 30 seconds from it. You ready? Sure.

These kids are already pros. They’ve been at it since they were six, and they’ll keep sharpening their ability to spot hoaxes, avoid scams, and debunk propaganda throughout their education. Just like every child in Finland, Lee Anderson is the first.

Todd: And they just go on, but I mean, we kind of just said that, but I just, uh, I, I just want to thank, uh, Finland and CBS Sunday Morning for bringing this to my attention.

Cathy: Well, and they interviewed a girl who was in an older class who was from the United States, who now lives in Finland, and she was so grateful. She was like, I see the difference. Like, I’m so grateful to be learning this here in Finland because this was not being taught in the States. Like, it was just a quick moment, [00:10:00] but, you know, she was recognizing how, how wonderful it is for them to be able to sit and process.

Cathy: And it’s not, the thing that, that’s so interesting is that it’s not like, all they’re doing is looking at this and saying, okay, I’m reading this article. Where does it come from? Who, like, owns the newspaper where this article comes from? Where, what is the intention of this article? Is there a possibility that this was paid for?

Cathy: Who is, you know, it’s like diving into these parts of society because a lot of things In our, um, country and in our news, the reason it goes unnoticed or we start to believe things without even considering is because we don’t understand how to do that. We don’t understand that seeing a meme, that doesn’t make it real.

Cathy: You know what I mean? We have to understand why it’s being put out there, who’s organizing it, what the intention is. And we, that’s just not been a priority. [00:11:00] One of the things, um, because we are going to be discussing, uh, my new book is I do have a whole section, which was really important to me, about critical thinking.

Cathy: And I really fought to keep it in there because I don’t think people understand how important it is to make sure that we talk to our girls about not just, not just news, but But about how they relate to people, what they believe about the world, what they believe about themselves, like really diving in and digging in, not telling them how to think, because that’s not critical thinking.

Cathy: Telling your kids how to think or what to believe is not developing their critical thinking skills. The other reason that I know it’s super important is underneath the heading of critical thinking, because it’s like 50 or so pages where I’m explaining it. I also talk about how people get pulled into high control groups and cults, and the reason they get pulled into these things is not because they’re not intelligent or not good people.

Cathy: Usually it’s really it’s seekers and good people who get pulled into these things is because they’re not. Thinking critically. They’re not [00:12:00] questioning the isolation. They’re not questioning the love bombing. They’re not questioning, um, you know, the gaslighting. They’re just beginning to believe it rather than saying, wait a second, something feels off.

Cathy: And Or believing that it’s okay to question something. That’s another thing is if you live in a home where everybody tells you how to think and it’s a little got that authoritarian bent where you’re like, Oh, if I think differently than I may not be loved or I may be cast out, then that’s how you go out in the world and deal with other people.

Cathy: It becomes one of two things. Either you tell people how to think, or you allow other people to tell you how to think.

Todd: Um, regarding, um, finding this information, I just did a quick search on 10 things that we can do as parents to help our kids. And some of it seems very. you know, obvious, but I’ll say it anyways.

Todd: Check the source, you know, is it from a reputable news outlet? Read beyond the headlines. So, because headlines, you know, it’s clickbait or whatever it is. Right.

Cathy: And it rarely ever says exactly what the [00:13:00] article is about. Yeah.

Todd: Verify the author. Journalist. Yes. Research the author’s credibility. Are they a recognized journalist or an expert in the field?

Todd: Look for citations. Um, It’s probably an important thing. I never do that. Do you?

Cathy: Yeah. I mean, I, when you read a, um, article from the New York Times or the Washington Post, which are the two that I still, and Wall Street Journal, at the end, they have citations where they got the research.

Todd: Uh, check the date.

Todd: Sometimes old articles surface as current. Investigate the images. Consider the tone. Be wary of articles that evoke strong emotional reactions as they may be designed to manipulate opinions. Cross reference information. Beware of confirmation bias. Recognize your own bias. And if the story aligns too perfectly with your beliefs, take a moment to question its validity.

Todd: And then finally, check fact checking websites. Like Snopes, FactCheck. org or

Cathy: PolitiFact,

Todd: uh, to verify suspicious claims. [00:14:00] So, you know, just

Cathy: usually if I see something online and I’m like, whoa, all I do is just Google it. Is this coming up in the newspapers? Is this coming up in other places? And if I can’t find it anywhere else, then I don’t believe it.

Todd: I’ve heard I’ve used Snopes. I’ve used FactCheck. I wasn’t familiar with PolitiFact. Have you? I don’t even know if it’s,

Cathy: I feel like, I feel like their logo is like a question mark or a. Checkmark. I think I’ve seen it before. I Snopes is usually what I use, but sometimes it’s even easier than that. I mean, well, actually Snopes is super easy to use, but like I said, you can just, if, if you read an article before you start sending it along, just Google it, where else are they saying that if it’s nowhere else yet, it’s probably not news yet.

Cathy: Um, because if something really did happen or someone really did say something, um, more than one person is going to be writing about it. And again, I mean, reputable sources like, you know, major newspapers or major magazines are going to be commenting on it. So, um,

Todd: All right. So, uh, let’s switch over to Sweetie’s book.

Todd: [00:15:00] Um, the name of the book, as we’ve said in the past, and you’ll be hearing a lot from us in the months to come, restoring our girls, how real conversations shape our daughter’s lives, help them with challenges, and remind them that they matter. And

Cathy: Well, I was going to say that help them with teen challenges is, um, and this won’t be a surprise to people in the industry that we are in, but it’s an SEO thing, meaning like to put teen in there is really important so people can find it.

Cathy: And it is about teens, like, but it’s really for girls, 12 to 25. So I don’t want anyone to think like, if you have a young adult daughter, like a daughter who’s in college and she’s 20, this is still, Relevant. If you have a preadolescent kid, you know, they’re just getting into middle school. They’re 12, 13.

Cathy: This is also relevant. Yeah.

Todd: Um, and, uh, you break the book up into, um, different chapters. Chapter one, why our girls need real conversations. Uh, chapter two, why we’re afraid of real conversations. Chapter three is a guide for these [00:16:00] conversations, but we’re going to focus on chapter four, which is what. Real things girls want you to know.

Todd: And you have that broken up into sections. But the one we’re going to focus on today is the Know Me. You have Know Me, Connect With Me. We’re going to talk about Connect With Me next week. But this week, we’re going to talk about Know Me. And you gave me the opportunity to pick out which of the ones that I wanted to focus on.

Cathy: Yeah, because under the subheading of Know Me, there’s a bunch of things that they have said regarding getting to know them.

Todd: But before we get to that, and I have Um, I’m kind of like reading your book in pieces, uh, for the podcast. Yeah. Um, I just want to read, um, a quick few sentences, uh, before we get into the Nomi, it’s more, oh yeah, before we get into the one I want to talk about, but I just want you to riff off of it.

Todd: You say our ability to be mindful and remain from thoughtlessly labeling our daughters as the smart one. The athletic one, or even use negative terms like the flighty or dramatic one [00:17:00] allows them to explore various identities as they grow up, stepping back and allowing them to pursue multiple paths instead of insisting on the one we’ve assigned or deemed right is how they develop their confidence and self awareness.

Todd: Yeah. Anything you want to say about that?

Cathy: Well, I just think be really thoughtful about giving your kid an identity. And when I say thoughtful, I mean, maybe question. That, um, if your kid wants to choose their identity, like they consider themselves a smart one or they consider themselves athletic, you can support them in that and, and experience their athleticism and comment on, you know, how well they do and something like that is important to them.

Cathy: But what you don’t want to do is tell them what they are. You want, because let’s say that they are like, I’m the athletic one, I’m athletic. And then they blow out their sophomore year. You want them to have a bigger range of who they believe themselves to be so they can try other things. And if your whole [00:18:00] life you’ve been telling them who they are, then they also believe they’re only lovable or seen or, um, you know, important to you if they demonstrate those things.

Cathy: So you may say, well, that’s not really how I feel. That doesn’t matter. That’s how they feel. So a lot of times we, when I explain these things to parents, they’ll say, well, that’s not true. That’s not how I feel. But it’s how, it’s how it lands with them. That’s what’s most important.

Todd: Well, and I want to speak from, so my label growing up was the Golden Child, which sounds really good because I was the one who got the good grades and stayed out of trouble.

Todd: And, uh, there’s so much. F’d up stuff about me getting a label like that. One is it didn’t really give me much space to screw up. Right. And secondly, it pitted my siblings against, you know, it’s not like we had fights about it, but like, Oh, there’s Todd, the golden child getting straight A’s, which I didn’t get straight A’s, but I got a lot of A’s and some B’s.

Todd: I

Cathy: think there’s a continuing annoyance of you.

Todd: Oh yeah. I

Cathy: don’t think it’s like [00:19:00] a, something that people are acting out around, but there’s probably something. That they think about where you’re kind of like,

Todd: yeah, and I didn’t ask for that label now. My ego probably loved it. Uh, but it’s just, that’s my example.

Todd: Did you, did your mom or dad give you any labels?

Cathy: Um, I, oh gosh, I wasn’t ready for this question. Um, I think.

Todd: I can come up with one. What? Um, they said you used to talk all the time.

Cathy: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. That was definitely a Chatty Cathy. Yeah, like the doll.

Todd: Chatty Cathy. Um,

Cathy: I talked all the time. And I, yes, that was something I heard.

Cathy: And then, um, And that I was very shy originally when I was young and that I followed them around and was kind of annoying. I remember that. Um, and I also, I think it was less about me personally and more about my class growing up. I often, I often heard, and it’s so funny because I was just talking to a parent about this last week, how they always hear from teachers, like, this is the worst class we’ve [00:20:00] ever had.

Cathy: Or we’ve never had a difficult, a class that’s This difficult when I mean class, it’s like that year’s fifth grade class. And then all of a sudden, all the kids inside of that class are like, wow, that sucks. That sucks that we’re part of the worst class. And I kind of believe that that was the case when I was in high school is I heard a lot of feedback from teachers and, um, both of my parents were teachers in the district.

Cathy: And so there was a lot of commentary on our class. where my sister’s class was really stellar and mine was supposedly not. And so we kind of had, you know, and again, maybe it’s just where I grew up. We kind of wore it as a badge of honor. Maybe we just needed to shift it in our own minds. But I just kind of feel like that was something, there was a less of a trust of our class.

Cathy: And, and I would say to teachers and to parents, maybe don’t say those things to your kids. Like, You can’t look at a group of kids and say, this class is bad. That’s ridiculous.

Todd: And there’s,

Cathy: and that is, I’m sure there’s issues going on. [00:21:00] And, but sometimes issues in other classes are just more

Todd: insidious,

Cathy: exactly.

Cathy: And so you don’t want to make, um, grand statements that again, affect the way you’re, you can deal with issues in the moment, but it’s the grandiosity of this class is the worst one. That’s a problem.

Todd: Um, I, because I said, Chatty Cathy, I have to play a scene from Planes, Trains and Automobiles. You okay with that?

Todd: Sure.

Cause I’ve been with Del Griffith. I can take anything. You know what they’d say? They’d say, I know what you mean. Shower curtain ring guy. It’s like going on a date with a chatty Cathy doll. It’s like what you get to do. I expect you to have a little string on your chest, you know, that I pull out and have to snap back.

Except I wouldn’t pull it out and snap it back. You would.

Todd: Hold on, he’s not done yet.

By the way, you know, when you’re, when you’re telling these little stories, here’s a good idea. Have a point. It makes it so much more [00:22:00] interesting for the listener.

Todd: Oh, poor Del. Del

Cathy: likes himself.

Todd: He does. I

Cathy: like myself.

Todd: I know Del has a really good response to that and you’ll have to figure that out when you watch it over Thanksgiving like Cathy and I will.

Todd: Yeah, we watch it every year. Okay, so I just wanted, so, uh, that was kind of the intro. Um, and This was the one, so you have four different statements, uh, that you’ve heard from younger women, girls. And I chose the first one because it’s the most foundational. So I’m just going to say it and then I want you to riff off of it.

Todd: Then we’re going to talk a little bit more about it. You, what you’ve heard girls say is that my actions Aren’t always about you, you being the parent, I’m figuring things out too. What do you want to say about that?

Cathy: Well, I think that we consider ourselves, okay, let me say this the other way. Our kids are the center of our lives, right?

Cathy: We’re always thinking about what are they doing? Where are they? Are they home on time? Who are their [00:23:00] friends? What are they involved in? How are their grades? We are not often the center of our teen’s life. And that doesn’t mean they don’t love us. Um, it doesn’t mean that they’re not. They’re not grateful somewhere down deep inside.

Cathy: It just means that not everything they’re doing is about us. And not everything they’re doing is to hurt us. And not everything they’re doing is to impress us. Sometimes they’re having, not sometimes, they’re having their own experiences as human beings, as uh, 13 year old, 15 year old, 17 year olds. And sometimes they’re doing it for status in their peer group.

Cathy: Sometimes they’re doing it because they want to try something new. Sometimes they’re doing something because they feel like they need to break some rules because they’re tired of, you know, being in a box. And they’re not because a lot of times, why is this important for us to understand? A lot of times we really believe it’s some kind of like slight against us like that.

Cathy: Or we like create a story around. Oh my gosh, the amount of times I’ve heard parents say this to me. My kid is embarrassing me.

My

Cathy: kid [00:24:00] is embarrassing our family. My kid is embarrassing our family name. Our kid, my kid is making me feel not comfortable in, in my women’s group or in my, when, with my group of friends that I’m golfing with.

Cathy: Well,

Todd: that starts with like, when your kid is melting down in the grocery store when they’re three years old. So that’s where it starts. And then yeah, By the way, it’s normal to have some sense of discomfort when our kids do it. But what happens is when we think about punishing or telling them that they’re I don’t know.

Cathy: Or that your greatest fear or that your greatest concern, I’m thinking about a family I worked with and this was a while ago, but their daughter, um, was really struggling freshman year and they had learned some things that had happened and, um, some boys that she had been with and things that they were not super psyched about.

Cathy: And their whole thing was, how could you do this to us? How could you do this to me? How could you embarrass us? How, why would you do this to our family? And I, I really had to, [00:25:00] um, intervene and say, Hey, this has nothing to do with you too. I mean, maybe it does in that there’s a relationship that needs to be honored, developed.

Cathy: Maybe she hasn’t felt heard. I’m not saying there isn’t something that can be worked on between you, but right now you need to be less focused on yourself and more focused on what’s going on with your kid. And there also needs to be a, a bit of a separation that your child is not you. You, you are raising a child, but they are not you, and they will make mistakes, and they will be challenged, and they will try things they shouldn’t, because that’s how human beings develop.

Cathy: We don’t promote it. We don’t try and make that happen. We don’t make their lives more difficult by introducing things too early. But how, you know, the, the, another thing in the book, I don’t know if it’s one of the, you know, one of these sections, but is about our, when we say to our kids. You know, how [00:26:00] could you do that?

Cathy: Or who are you? Or I can’t believe you would do that. And it’s like, really? You can’t believe that a kid would make a mistake. You can’t believe that a 13 year old may not know the best way to handle a fight. You may not, you, you can’t believe that a 15 year old would fail a test. What are you, what are you talking about?

Cathy: And so it does to Todd’s point. It doesn’t mean you can’t have feelings about it. It just means to then say, kid, you embarrassed me. He’s probably not going to be helping the relationship very much.

Todd: Um, in the book, in this section of the book, you talk about a 15 year old who lived in constant fear of disappointing her mother.

Yes.

Todd: Without getting into specific details, what is the impact of the relationship? Kid feeling like they’re responsible for their parents. Well being,

Cathy: well, it just depends on how, you know, I know the story you’re talking about in the book, but it just depends on [00:27:00] how extreme it is. If it’s my, my parent has a difficult time getting up in the morning and I’m in charge of taking care of the other kids and I’m in charge of making sure that, you know, I work a job so I can bring money home because my mom can’t.

Cathy: Or my dad can’t deal and I’m actually parentified. That’s a whole nother thing where a kid then takes on the job of an adult. If it’s the other aspect where the parents are functioning, but the kid feels like if they disappoint their parents, if they don’t do what their parents ask them to do, that they are no longer lovable.

Cathy: That they are no longer accepted and that they no longer belong. And again, parents will say, well, that’s not what I mean, but it’s less about what you mean and more about how they feel. If you keep telling them, everyone in this family is smart. Everyone in this family gets A’s. The expectation of if you’re a Johnson, we get straight A’s.

Cathy: If you’re a Johnson, you run track. If you’re a Johnson, you, you know, we expect you to, [00:28:00] you know, what, say something else, be on the dance team, whatever it may be. There is a belief system that that is the only way that you can be a Johnson. Do you see what I mean? There’s no room in that to be yourself. And so parents will, they, I mean, the amount of conversations I’ve had with parents about these things where they’re like, well, My intention was good or I needed to, this is why like Duffy was on last week and he and I, we don’t really debate this, but we, there’s a very nuanced conversation that he and I have about keeping kids busy because in, um, Duffy’s practice, he has learned that especially working with the boys he’s worked with, keep kids busy because then they have left less of that, like open time to game all night and to, you know, smoke weed or whatever it may be.

Cathy: Keep them busy and keep them, you know, have family dinners, that kind of thing. I agree with a lot of that, but I also sometimes think that the piece that’s missing is parents tell their kids how to be busy.

Yeah.

Cathy: [00:29:00] Is that instead of just saying, what do you want to do? They say, you are going to do this.

Todd: Well, I remember us doing a podcast, whatever, 10 years ago, or maybe the first year. And there was a part of me that wanted to tell my daughters when they were Two and four years old, uh, that there were white, white socks fans in this family.

Yeah.

Todd: Right. And even that it’s like, Oh, it’s just silly sports thing, but no, that’s kind of an important piece.

Todd: Like I’m not going to tell them whether or not they’re going to like baseball or if they’re going to like the Cubs over the socks. And that’s how it kind of gets started. You like kind of decide for your kids who they’re going to be or what they’re going to like. And it’s just a very disempowering, um, thing that we as parents can do to our kids.

Cathy: So then let’s walk through that. So then a parent will say, well, but I am a White Sox fan and I want to share my White Sox fan ness with my kids. After

Todd: they just broke the single season record for number of losses. I was

Cathy: just going to say, this may not be the [00:30:00] year if you’re having a baby that you want to start that process because it’s been rough.

Cathy: But you do get to share. Your love of the White Sox. Todd wears White Sox clothes all the time. I think you’re wearing a shirt right now.

Todd: Does it say White Sox? Actually, it does not.

Cathy: Oh, it looks like the blue one that you always wear. It says Nashville. Oh, okay. Different. But he can share that, but, and they can be into it or not into it.

Cathy: And here’s the fun thing. If they’re not into it and they’re like, we’re Cubs fans, then it can be like, okay, when it’s the, you know, Windy City Classic, we’re going together and you’re going to wear your Cubs stuff. And I’m going to wear my Sox stuff. And we’re going to have a, you can make it. You, you can still be who you are and share who you are without expecting your children to be just like you.

Cathy: And the irony is, the more you ease off of that and you say, Hey, I’m a white sex fan, but you know, and I’m going to take you to games, but you know, look around the leagues, see what you think. They often join you because they think it’s free. It’s fun. It’s enjoyable. I think a lot of times kids butt up against that and choose a different team because they They don’t want to [00:31:00] be like everybody else.

Cathy: You know what I mean? There’s a, like in my family, you know, and I was going to laugh at you when you said when my kids were bored, I was going to make them white sex fans. Cause I’m not, I mean, I like the white sex because you do, but my family is a Cubs family. So that would have been a challenge right there.

Cathy: So, but when I was growing up, The Cubs were on all the time. My family, huge fans. My aunt’s a huge fan. Everybody’s a big fan. But nobody forced me to be. Nobody was like, you have to be. It just was enjoyable. It was something we did together. But as soon as it becomes, and again, we’re using baseball as a metaphor for everything.

Todd: Yes. Well, and I want to say, uh, I, I always liked to try to think in terms of movies. And when we’re talking about, um, the 15 year old daughter being feeling responsible for the wellbeing of everybody else, their, her parents, I thought of, uh, pretty in pink, remember Andy and her dad was always out of a job and she’s making breakfast for waking him up in the morning, waking him up and motivating him.

Todd: I mean, it’s such a [00:32:00] messed up dynamic that happens.

Cathy: Right. And it’s more common than you think.

Todd: For sure. I mean, I feel like I’ve parentified my father since I was a little boy.

Yeah.

Todd: And, uh, you know, it’s weird now that he’s 84, he actually does need that support. And it’s really confusing because part of me is like, I’ve been helping this guy in a way that sometimes is difficult to do.

Todd: Um, when I was 10 years old, uh, but now I’m 52 and he’s actually in the sunset of his life and he needs it. So totally confusing working, working through it through in therapy. Let’s just say that.

Cathy: Yes, definitely.

Todd: Um, I want to talk about, um, maybe we’ll talk about birth order, but I want Speak specifically about the oldest children and what, what, what typically tends to happen, because you even talk about this in the book.

Todd: Um, I see this primarily with daughters less with sons. I especially see the patterns with firstborn girls or the daughter that was labeled as the easy one, because she has become [00:33:00] skilled at putting others before herself. What do you want to say about that?

Cathy: Well, just that again, you see patterns, there’s no absolute it’s the, it’s correlation.

Cathy: Versus causation. Yeah. And it’s like, but what I have seen working with girls is that oftentimes the firstborn daughter takes a lot of responsibility, um, not only for themselves, but for the family. And so oftentimes there is a belief that they need to be the one who, you know, who is falling in line or the one who needs to have, um, You know, the good grades, the one who needs to tell all their other siblings depending how, how much there, how many there are, you know, to quiet down or to listen or to take care of them or to walk them to school.

Cathy: There’s a, a, a heavily developed responsibility. Now, of course, I’ve seen the opposite and when I’ve seen the opposite, meaning the firstborn is not gonna do that. Guess what? Someone’s going to, so then the next born will do it, either the middle or the youngest. Somebody is going to take on the role of being the easiest child.

Cathy: And then what [00:34:00] unfortunately ends up happening, is then the easiest child becomes the one that people pay a little less attention to, because they can depend on that child to always follow through. Okay, so there’s a lot of times of like, um, I mean, I, I’m, this just came into my head. And again, it’s a fiction book, but you know, if you read Wonder, um, the book Wonder, their, uh, son had, you know, a disability, was born with a facial deformity.

Cathy: And so there was a lot of attention paid to their son for obvious reasons. And their daughter, who was the oldest, who was involved in a lot of things and really wanted attention from the parents, um, didn’t get what she wanted because they were obviously focused on their son. And also they would say to her, well, you don’t really need our attention because you’re fine.

Cathy: You know, there was a lot of like, you’re fine. You’re fine. You’re fine. Thank goodness. You’re fine. I’m so glad you’re fine. And so it was not only reinforced that they’re not going to pay attention to her, but they’re like, so glad we don’t have to. So even if you don’t [00:35:00] follow birth order. Typically, it’s the firstborn, but if it’s the second or third, there’s typically a child that has learned to not make waves.

Todd: Well, I just did a quick, um, kind of search on it. So firstborn daughters, and these are tendencies, obviously they could be the opposite.

Cathy: These are generalizations.

Todd: Firstborns often seem as responsible, achievement oriented, natural leaders. They may take on caregiving roles and feel pressure to meet expectations.

Todd: Middle daughters, frequently viewed as peacemakers. They may develop strong negotiation skills and adaptable. They often strive for independence and can be more social. And the youngest daughters typically seen as fun, loving, and carefree. They may be more adventurous and spontaneous. They often benefit from the experience of older siblings, but may also perceived as less responsible.

Cathy: And again, those are stereotypes. And for those of you who have. Three children or four children. You may see those parallels in your own home, but it’s, it’s not that clean cut all the time, which is a really important thing with, um, I think our podcast, we always [00:36:00] talk about, don’t go with stereotypes, right?

Cathy: But we do, when we want to speak about generalizations, let’s just speak about a kid, regardless of birth order, who tends to take on the weight of the family expectation. Cause they’re usually, and that’s what you did. I think, I think you just wanted everyone to be happy. And so you were like, Oh yeah, I was a

Todd: peacemaker.

Todd: I’m going

Cathy: to make sure grandma’s okay. I’m going to make sure that my mom knows I’m listening. I’m going to get good grades. So no one has to worry about me. And, and I, I mean, I definitely, um, it’s funny cause I think if you talk to anyone in my family, they would categorize me in a different way. They would say you were this, you were this, you were this.

Cathy: But what I felt internally was that And again, maybe it started with when I was young, but I don’t want to burden anyone with how I feel. And then I’m not angry about that now. I’ve had plenty of therapy. I’m not, it’s not a, but it’s something that I’m so hyperconscious of that when I became a parent, I had to like chill out about talking to my girls about feelings that it became such a big thing.

Cathy: Where I’m like, you can [00:37:00] talk about it. You can be open about it. Cause I felt so repressed in that way that sometimes it’s like, actually they don’t need that right now. You know what I mean? Like we have to balance our own issues and not assume everyone else has our issues, you know?

Todd: Yeah. Well, I, I just want to mention like in the example of a firstborn daughter, really super responsible and achievement oriented.

Todd: Uh huh. You go on to say that these children tend to report more physical issues like migraines, chronic pain, autoimmune disorders, or extreme exhaustion. Right. They mourn for their younger selves. The younger version of themselves who receive so much praise for maturity and self sufficiency instead of, instead of getting the care and attention they need.

Cathy: Well, and that part is actually the adult women I work with.

Todd: Yes. Yes. And so they get to be older. Oh, I’m sorry. Yeah.

Cathy: So these are the adults. So I work with grown women, obviously as well. Those are my primary clients. And when they have been that [00:38:00] child, either the firstborn child or the responsible child, they are maintaining that.

Cathy: As they get older, they may be the one who takes care of their parents or is the primary caretaker of their parents. They may be in their family, um, you know, still the one doing everything and not asking for any help. They may be the one who feels like they need to be in charge of the PTA and have a full time job and do, they still are living that pattern and that dynamic.

Cathy: And then when I really, when they come to therapy and we start talking about it, there’s so much About what they missed or the, the weight or the pressure that is on them. And so sometimes we, and, and again, you know, a lot of the women I talked to, the majority of my practice has been with women who are going through somewhat of a midlife crisis or a spiritual breakthrough or a spiritual breakdown, whatever you want to call it, where they’re recognizing their patterns.

Cathy: And they’re questioning, do I want to do this anymore? It doesn’t mean they’re going to, and again, a lot of times when we say that, I have a line in the book where I say, [00:39:00] women’s journeys are fine with everyone unless they start to inconvenience people, right? And this is where things get difficult is if they decide to do things differently, that shakes up the dynamic of the family.

Cathy: And that’s the hard part.

Todd: And then we all have to adjust, which we don’t want to

Cathy: correct. People are like, wait a second. I You’re supposed to be in charge of these things. You’re the type A, you know, Enneagram one person who does all this. And all of a sudden the person’s like, I’m not really that person. I just learned to be that person and I want to have a more free flow, calmer life as I’m getting into my middle age.

Todd: It’s like the mom in that show we watched last week. Um, God, what did we watch? It was on Peacock and the perfect couple. It wasn’t, was it the, no, it was apples never fall.

Cathy: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Todd: Okay. And who’s the actress? Uh, Annette Bening. Drawing a blank. Yeah, Annette Bening. And you know, she’s doing all the things that moms do, managing the household.

Todd: And then one day she’s like, none of you [00:40:00] appreciate me. I’m out of here.

Cathy: Yeah.

Todd: You know, a whole bunch of stuff

Cathy: that show. Okay. So the same thing kind of happens in the perfect couple, ironically, which is, you know, the one that I was watching while you were gone last week on Netflix. But there’s a point when Nicole Kidman is like, I’m not doing it anymore.

Cathy: I’m not taking care of you. I’m not hiding this for you. I’m not pretending for you. I’m out. And the thing is, is like why, you know, there’s like a million reasons that I wrote this book, but one of the major reasons in. Is that what I’ve noticed is all these patterns where we keep having to unwind these things in middle age parents.

Cathy: Like I’m talking to grown women somewhere in between 35 and 60, who are still struggling with the relationships they had with their mom. Sometimes their dad, but usually their mom and they. Are still dealing with that. And then, but then they’re raising their girls in the same way they were raised or a similar way.

Cathy: And they’re still not talking about things and they’re still not developing the relationships. They’re still focused on [00:41:00] the external success of their daughter and making that the most important socially, you know, academically. And, and I’m like, why are we repeating patterns that we know we have to unwind?

Cathy: Like, why don’t we do something different here? And let me tell you. Doing things counterculture is challenging. You know, Todd and I, um, some things don’t appear counterculture to maybe just your average viewer, but Todd and I have done a lot of counter, counterculture things. And it can be challenging because we’re going against our old programming.

Cathy: We’re going up against, you know, what society is saying is most important. And even our kids, like, sometimes it would be a lot easier to just do A rather than B, but because we know that the implications may not be great in the future, like, you know, my concern has always been, and I think Todd would agree with this, are like, what is your foundational most important thing has been the mental wellbeing of my children.

Todd: Yeah. That’s where we, that’s where we, and it’s funny, I’m trying to think of examples because I think examples help. And this is once again, a topic we talked [00:42:00] about on a podcast 12 years ago about how. Kind of like what Duffy said. I’d be like, I remember JC was like nine years old and extracurricular started showing up and I’m like, you know, we’re, we’re not going to be in the three o’clock club, which means you come home from school and you get to eat mini wheats and watch TV.

Todd: You got to go do something after school. And you called me out saying, that’s your

Cathy: life.

Todd: That’s Yeah, that was my pattern. That’s what I thought I should do. So that’s what my kids should do. And what instead what we did was allow them to decide for themselves whether or not after a long day of school that they just want to come in and decompress a little bit.

Todd: And what’s funny is when we did that and gave them that freedom. They organically wanted to go do other things instead of me telling them what it is that they had to do.

Cathy: Well, and I know we’ve talked about this on the show before, but let’s like really dig into what Todd was saying. Todd had this preconceived notion from his childhood that kids who came home at three o’clock and didn’t do anything were lazy, but really a lot of that was [00:43:00] Todd didn’t want to come home at three o’clock because things weren’t comfortable in his home.

Cathy: So he was staying away from his house because he’s like, I’m going to deal with that later. I’m going to stay with my friends. So he hadn’t even unwound why he didn’t want to go home, but he was applying the same thing to our daughters who it wasn’t about come home and go to bed. It was about come home, relax, have a snack, talk to us about your day.

Cathy: I mean, they were like in fourth grade, like, what are we doing? Like, Not only are we a maybe pushing them because externally we want them to be successful in other people’s eyes, but a lot of times we’re pushing them based on our own history and trauma. We haven’t unwound why we believe what we believe.

Cathy: And, and that’s the thing is like, Of course I want my kids to do things and be active in things that they enjoy. I want them to like things. I want them to know themselves. I want them to, if they’re doing something and they’re like, I’ve grown out of this, I want them to find something new.

Todd: And sometimes they can’t find what’s new [00:44:00] until they get bored for a day or a week or a month or a semester.

Todd: Yeah. Like, cause I’d be like, Oh, you can be bored for a week, but then after that you got to pick something up.

Yeah.

Todd: And, uh, we want them to dance according to our schedule.

Cathy: Right. And you know, another thing that I enjoy talking to parents about is this whole idea of kids being lazy because we have this thing where we’re like, why don’t you go to sleep on time and why don’t you rest?

Cathy: And why don’t you take care of yourself? And then our kid will be like, okay. I’m going to finally take care of myself and sleep. And then we have this kind of inner clock

where

Cathy: we’re like, okay, that’s enough sleep. Like we’re, we then start to feel uncomfortable with their rest. We have our own inner like belief system about how much rest is enough.

Cathy: And we impose it on our kids instead of allowing them to figure out how much rest they need. Telling them how much they need or how much they don’t need instead of developing an intrinsic [00:45:00] awareness of, because this is a thing when your kid is like avoiding you, not telling you things, um, going against what you say, slamming the door on you.

Cathy: Yes. Part of it is being a teen because they’re figuring things out, but a lot of it is because they feel pressure

Todd: from you. And there’s an, there’s enough pressure out there when the school they go to their peers. Like I, I just, I am very strong advocate that we don’t need to be the one that applies all the pressure.

Todd: And I think us parents sometimes get lost saying, if we don’t apply the pressure, then they’re just going to slack off and be lazy and live in our house until they’re 30 years old. When in fact, if they’re in a, hopefully a decent school system, that school system and their peers, like there’s enough pressure.

Todd: that are putting pressure on their kids so that my kids are going to feel pressure from their peers. They don’t need it from me also.

Cathy: Right. Well, we get to be the people who they can come home and critically think about things like, you know, let’s talk about it. Let’s process. What do you like? What’s good for you?

Cathy: And this is the thing [00:46:00] is a relationship is essential. With your kids to even have these kind of conversations. And so that becomes the most important thing. And you can talk to your kids about, I want you to be active. I want you to find things that stimulate your thinking. I want you to do things that make you feel like you.

Cathy: So you can make it a value in your house. You don’t have to be like, you don’t have to do anything. You can make it a value, but you surround. That value with, but I trust you to make these decisions. I trust you. When you say you’re done with soccer, that you’re done. I trust you that when you’re like, I’m in eighth grade, I’ve played this instrument for three or four years.

Cathy: I’m done. Okay. What’s next. And to Todd’s point, they may need a little time to get bored and go, okay, wait, wait, wait. I need to get, I mean, the amount of times I’ve heard my girls say that, like, okay, all my friends are right now and I need to go find my busy. And that’s, that’s. Intrinsic motivation, rather than me every day saying, why aren’t you busy?

Cathy: Why don’t you do anything? Well, because then we become the enemy.

Todd: Yeah. We

Cathy: become who they’re going up against. When I

Todd: [00:47:00] feel like, cause we do Team Zen and these parents sometimes come in with really challenging, Yeah. And I feel like the quote unquote advice that I give parents more than any other advice is just make sure your kid is on, knows that you are on their team.

Todd: Yeah. And that’s sometimes hard to do because sometimes when your kid’s screwing up and the police get called or they get caught drinking or they just got an F on a test, it’s hard to stay on your kid’s team, but that’s what they need you to be on their team more than ever. Yeah.

Cathy: And what does that mean?

Cathy: Like when my kids, you know, all three of them were going through whatever struggles or change or whatever it was being, you know, like, Hey, do you want to go on a walk? Do you want to, you know, go on a drive? Do you want to tell me about your music? Like, let’s listen to something you enjoy. Let’s get focused on really what’s most important in life.

Cathy: And, and that is relationship. Here’s the thing for those of you who are listening, who have gone through a health [00:48:00] struggle, or have had people in your life who have died, or you’ve supported people as they were, you know, at their end of life care, or maybe you’ve gone through depression or pain or whatever, you’ve been to that point where you realize what, you know, Hopefully what life is really about, which a lot of this crap that we put on life, I feel like there’s something in my throat.

Cathy: A lot of this. Cause you had that smoothie this morning. Is that why? Yeah. A lot of the things that we think are most important aren’t.

Yeah.

Cathy: And we often don’t learn that until we experience pain.

Yeah.

Cathy: And it’s something that I have been able to hold on to as a parent and it ebbs and flows. Don’t get me wrong.

Cathy: It’s not that I’m always cognizant of it, but when something goes on with my kid and I’m worried about this, or maybe they won’t end up doing this thing that they dreamed of, or maybe this won’t happen. I’m like, wait a second. The most important thing is connection. their internal wellbeing, that they’re loved.

Cathy: And if any of you have had kids who have gotten sick or have had, um, all those other [00:49:00] problems seem

Todd: a lot less important.

Cathy: You start to care less about the soccer practice. You know what I mean? You care less about getting all A’s.

Todd: It’s important. Our brain is designed to worry. It is going to worry about something.

Todd: Even if my life is perfect, I have all the love and the money and the security. I’m my brain’s still going to figure out something to complain about. Um, and then all of a sudden life throws you a curve ball and gives you something to really worry about. Then all the worries go away. Or it seems so nonsensical.

Todd: Not

Cathy: only to your point, Ted, not only are we like trained to worry, but not trained, our brains are hardwired to worry. And it’s not really our fault. We just have to notice it and recognize it and question it. We’re also in this culture trained to achieve. So there’s always this belief that if we get to a certain place, we need to keep achieving and do better.

Cathy: Like the amount of times, you know, parents are like, yeah, my kids are doing fine in their classes, but they need to challenge themselves more. They need to take higher level courses. And I’m like, it’s okay for your kids to just be doing fine in school. They’re, they’re being challenged socially. They’re being challenged by teachers.[00:50:00]

Cathy: They’re being challenged by their afterschool events. They’re being challenged by chat, you know, what’s going on in social media. Like you don’t have to create challenges for your kid there. And sometimes they find a way to challenge themselves. Like we’re, well, I mean, it’s our, our girls have their own stories.

Cathy: We don’t want to share all of them, but like, you know, they’ve sometimes taken harder classes for really crazy reasons. And then they’ve sometimes not done it for, they’ve, Manage that and figure that out and even when they’ve made a mistake, maybe taking a challenging class that they shouldn’t have, they learned a lot in the process.

Cathy: You know, they’re like, okay, here’s what I had to do. I had to get a tutor. I had to do this. And that’s good too.

Yeah.

Cathy: So, um, and again, as you can tell this conversation Todd and I had that went all over the place, it’s kind of messy. You’re not going to be able to set it up where it goes right and it goes perfectly and goes linear.

Cathy: You have to be able to move with the uncertainty and have conversations about it. Okay. And when things go wrong to not be like, well, if we only would have done A, B or C, this wouldn’t have gone wrong. Things are, [00:51:00] things go wrong. And, and you can deal, like, I always say I am much more. Interested in talking with a family that knows how to deal with things when they go wrong rather than a family that holds so tight they try and pretend things aren’t going wrong, you know, there’s like, we have to, you know, figure out ways to regulate ourselves and have good conversations and allow for mistakes, um, that develops a really resilient, thoughtful, kind person.

Todd: Not a lot of personal growth happens when things go right.

Cathy: Right. Because then they’re, they’re always in the worry achievement mentality.

Todd: So yeah. Um, okay. I, any other closing thoughts as I

Cathy: will say, thank you, uh, for people who preordered my book last week. Um, I had a good week as far as there was a lot of good preorders.

Cathy: So there’s a buzz. Um, so thank you. And I also say, keep doing it. If you’re going to get the book, do it now. It’s more, it’s just, and not just for me, but anybody, you know, that’s an author or anybody that you support pre sales really [00:52:00] make a difference because then Amazon and the other. Figure out they want to push this book more.

Cathy: You know what I mean? So it like, it gives it some, you know, momentum. So thank you. And there’s a lot in it. Like Todd and I are just scratching the surface.

Todd: That’s all we’re doing. I want to say thanks to Jeremy Kraft. He’s a bald head of beauty, painting and remodeling throughout the Chicagoland area. 630 956 1800.

Todd: Avocode. net. Uh, consider joining Team Zen. Buy your tickets for the conference, ZenCon 2025, and uh, buy Cathy’s book. We’re storing our girls. Keep trucking.

[00:53:00]