[00:00:00]
Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 783, but it’s also Zen Talk number 192. We’re doing two different things here today, aren’t we, sweetheart?
Cathy: Actually, we’re doing three different things.
Todd: Actually, we’re doing four different things.
Todd: Maybe five. Let’s do six.
Cathy: Well, I know. No more than seven. We’re definitely doing three because this is, uh, this is a podcast. This is a Zen Talk, but it’s also, actually, it’s four. We’re making an announcement and we have a guest.
Todd: We have a guest and our guest is none other than one of my best good friends and Cathy’s best friends, Dr.
Todd: John Duffy.
John Duffy: I love you guys. Good to be here.
Cathy: Yes. Look, snaps up. Yes. Snapping it up.
Todd: So for the podcast listener, what, what is happening [00:01:00] behind the scenes is Cathy and I are here with about 14, Cathy and myself and John are in the same room and, um, there’s about 14 other, uh, teams and people that I hope will have some questions for us.
Todd: And we got some other things that we want to talk about at the beginning. this is just an invitation, uh, for the podcast listener to. Kind of have an inside look at what a Zen Talk is like, I guess. So, um, but first, Cathy and I have had, um, sometimes at night, we go to, we watch threads or TikTok. What do we do?
Cathy: Uh, Instagram Reels or TikTok.
Todd: Yeah. And she just kind of scrolls through and the intention is to laugh.
It’s
Todd: not to get informed about the news, it’s let’s find something funny. And human beings are really, really funny. And the one that has been popping up lately, sweetie, uh, that I want you to talk about.
Todd: is the guy who can’t, uh, have a good time. What’s that guy’s [00:02:00] name?
Cathy: I think it is. But do you have one that you can share with people that you can pull up for people? No,
Todd: because I think a lot of it, I don’t have one, but we can explain it. And then I gave you one this morning. Yeah.
Cathy: So there’s a, there’s a tic tac of, of this guy.
Cathy: And I think the title that he uses is, is guy who can’t have a good time.
Yeah. And
Cathy: so it’ll like show you like an ocean and it’s just beautiful. And then like hands over to him and he’s like, This vacation is so expensive.
Yeah, right. So it’s
Cathy: like he can’t like appreciate it. And then Todd, and then we start laughing because we watched like three or four of them.
Cathy: And he is Todd. Yeah. And it’s weird because Todd’s not negative. He just tends to go for like the thing he’s worried about. Like coming down here. A little
Todd: bit of
Cathy: that. Like coming down here, he’s like so nervous about time. And he’s so worried instead of the fact that people are here and we’re fine. And it’s all good.
Cathy: He just goes to that place. So this morning. I was having, I have this new snack that I have in the morning. It’s a banana with peanut butter and honey
Todd: and granola
Cathy: and so, and a little, a [00:03:00] teeny bit of granola, just so it’s like a little crunchy. And I just love it.
Todd: And uh, it’s so good. By the way, Todd
Cathy: had some of it ’cause I didn’t finish and he ate it and he’s like, this is so good.
Cathy: He’s like, it’s all sugar , but it’s, and I’m like, is it because that’s a banana? And that’s pure honey. And that’s like, I’m like, you, you, it’s, yes, maybe it is, but it’s also the healthiest thing that I mean, it’s not,
Todd: I wasn’t trying to be like the guy that we saw on TikTok last night. I actually said to you, that’s your, I’m being that guy.
Cathy: You’re being that guy. Yeah. You don’t have to try.
Todd: I don’t have to try. That’s exactly right. Thank you, Eric. Um, so there’s more of that. I’m sure in, in your life. From me. Well
Cathy: now I can, now I have a thing I can say to you. I can say, don’t be that guy who can never have fun.
Todd: Right. Right. Because sometimes I have fun, but sometimes I just see how expensive the vacation is.
Todd: I think the last time we were at Disney World, there’s, there’s dads with t shirts walking around saying this vacation is so [00:04:00] expensive or something like that. That’s how he shows up. Yes. So. Okay. Um, so we should probably bring our guest in a little bit. Dr. John Duffy, I don’t have your bio in front of me.
Todd: He’s written a bunch of wonderful parenting books. He’s been at every single one of our conferences and, uh,
Cathy: Let me, I can do something new from his bio. John Duffy’s book, um, uh, Parenting the New Teen in the Age of Anxiety was just listed in the top 20 parenting books of all time.
John Duffy: Is it fair to say Cathy Adams book also was listed on that list?
Cathy: It was, but I was 78.
John Duffy: We’re both on the list, that’s the point.
Cathy: The only reason I went to the list is because of Duffy, because Duffy and I have the same editor. So like, I was talking to my editor the other day and she’s like, did you see that Duffy’s book is on this list? I said, I did. He, I said, I gotta go look. So I looked and I just kept scrolling because there’s a hundred and I’m scrolling.
Cathy: I go, Oh, there’s mine. 78. And I think [00:05:00] Duffy’s like 13.
John Duffy: Yes.
Cathy: So you’re kind of crushing me. Yeah. But I am in full support of that crush. I think we’re
John Duffy: in the same league. Right next to each other as far as I’m concerned.
Todd: Um, we, we probably have had John on the podcast. I don’t know by now eight or nine times.
Todd: I don’t know who knows, but a lot. And, um, we are, I already know we have some questions from the people, uh, from the Team Zen members. Um, Uh, but first, Sweetie, why don’t you make the big announcement?
Cathy: Okay, so we’ve been, a lot of people already know this already because we’re just talking about it very normally, especially with Team Zen, but Todd and I are doing, we’re doing another conference.
Cathy: Okay? It’s a Zen Parenting Conference. Yay! I
Todd: was a little off about the drums. Yeah, but it’s good.
Cathy: We’re actually, Duffy, we didn’t tell you this yet, but my, Jess, you know Jess, our marketing person, she hates the word conference. She just, it’s like bothered her for years. Like it’s so impersonal. I
John Duffy: kind of get it,
Cathy: yeah.
Cathy: So this year, it is not conference. It is ZenCon
Todd: 25.
Cathy: We’re going with it. Um, and, and here’s the sad part. [00:06:00] It’s our last one. So, I know. Oh, that was kind of shut up.
Todd: I know. I’m trying to, I’m trying to find another one.
Cathy: So, it’s. Are you crying? You look like I’m crying. There’s no crying in baseball! Sweetie,
Todd: there’s people crying right now.
Todd: I
Cathy: know, it is very sad. It’s very sad. And Duffy, like Todd said, has been a part of every conference we’ve ever had since day one. And he is obviously, what if we were like, and he’s not in this one.
John Duffy: Not invited. It was, I was stunned. They just told me. We want
Cathy: to drop the bomb here in front of everybody. No.
Cathy: Duffy is like our keynote speaker, uh, at this conference and, um, alongside some of our other best favorite people in the world, Dr. Alexandra Salomon, um, the sisters from The Sister Project, Michelle and Lauren, one of my former students who I love dearly, um, Um, who’s going to be talking about mentorship, which Duffy just wrote a great sub stack about.
Cathy: I thought that was good synergy, um, plus a [00:07:00] bunch of guys from, um, Men Living are going to focus on Men Living. And then, um, Jay Alvarez is going to come in and talk about, um, LGBTQ and non binary identity, especially because Duffy and I are going to be focusing on our books because Duffy, of course, is the author of Rescuing Our Sons.
Cathy: My book, Restoring Our Girls, is coming out in January, snaps up, pre order now. It’s, you can pre order it now, it’s very exciting.
Todd: Did you say the name of it? I’m trying to do Restoring Our
Cathy: Girls.
Todd: And then the subtitle?
Cathy: Um, okay, let me take a second. Uh oh, this
Todd: is rough.
Cathy: It takes me a second. Um, how real conversations Um, uh, how, I can’t remember.
Cathy: Yeah,
John Duffy: well,
Cathy: it’s, it’s,
John Duffy: it’s not reasonable. It’s not reasonable to be expected to remember your own subtitle. It just isn’t.
Cathy: Wait, we don’t write them?
Todd: Let me just be very clear. I just pulled it up on Amazon. Okay, thanks. How real conversations shape our daughters lives, That’s it. help them with teen challenges, Right.
Todd: and remind them that they [00:08:00] matter. That part I put in.
Cathy: Because I, that’s like the piece, um, you know, Jennifer Wallace’s book, Never Enough, um, and she actually did a blurb for my book. Her big focus that she got out of it about toxic, you know, culture as far as achievement is that what kids really want to understand is that They matter, which is something Todd and I and Duffy have been talking about for two decades.
Cathy: It’s not like new, but I love the word, you know, like mattering. Like we, no matter what, if we’re, if we are getting a 4. 0 or we’re having our worst year of our life, we still matter. We’re not, uh, being loved or lovable based on what’s going on that moment in our lives. So I love this book. I love Duffy’s book.
Cathy: I love my book. I, I don’t know if I, I love Zen Parenting the book, but this book is like, This is like, like Duffy works with boys all the time, right? He has this knowledge. I work with girls. This is like two decades of like information from them. And they wanted me to, like, my first chapter is called, will you tell my parents this?[00:09:00]
Cathy: So I’m, this is, this is it guys. Sweetie, you
Todd: may have forgotten about
Cathy: something. What? Everything’s better. Everything’s safer. Duh.
Todd: Why am I playing this?
Cathy: Because on Friday night of the concert, or of the concert, see it’s already a concert to me, of the conference, ZenCon 25, um, we are hosting Glenn Phillips, lead singer of Toad the Wet Sprocket, and he’s coming in to sing for us, and he’s amazing acoustically, Todd and I saw him, he’s amazing.
Cathy: He’s amazing. He sounds just like this. Like we were like, huh?
Todd: Yeah. He hasn’t skipped a beat.
Cathy: No. And so he will be there Friday night. So this is, it’s a party. It’s so fun. Right?
John Duffy: Oh, it is the weekend of the year and yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m so excited for it. And everybody out there. Because it is, it’s life affirming, it’s fun, it’s informative, um, and just for a moment on Cathy’s book, like, um, there are 50, [00:10:00] I wish Cathy had written her book first, because there are 50 ideas in there I wish I had stolen, but, um, Also, when I’m working with girls now, your words, Cathy, come into my head all the time.
John Duffy: It is a beautifully written guide and it is of the moment. It is brilliant. Oh,
Cathy: thank you. Well, and Duffy wrote my foreword. So he was forced to read it very early. I don’t mean like you didn’t want to. I just mean like you’ve had it for a while. You got to not to
John Duffy: read it early. Yeah. And then I made, I wrote the foreword and then sent it to Cathy.
John Duffy: And I said, you can use this if you want.
Cathy: It’s awesome. So we are together in this. So we’re going to be, I’m going to be, when I, when I get nervous about doing some kind of promotion or presentation, I’m going to call John and say, well, you just come, will you just do this with me? So I don’t, I don’t want to do TV, John.
Cathy: And then, you know, they’re making me,
John Duffy: Oh, let’s go. I’ll come with you. We’re going to do it. Yeah. You got to do TV. John loves TV. No, we’ve talked about TV though, you know, a little bit of TV, it’ll sell some books. It’s going to be, it’ll put you on the zeitgeist, you know, [00:11:00] it’s ZenCon.
Cathy: I know.
John Duffy: It’s TVCon 25.
Cathy: Missy just asked on chat, the dates,
Todd: sweetie, the dates.
Cathy: Oh, thank you, Missy. Keep us in line here. It’s so in our heads. We forget that people listening to this don’t know. January, uh, I think it’s 23rd, Okay. So it’s a Friday. Please. Um, it’s a Friday and a Saturday. It always is. Um, it starts Friday midday if you want to go to the pre conference workshops, which you should because they’re awesome.
Cathy: And then, uh, Friday night is Glenn and from Toad the Wet Sprocket and then Todd and I. And then Saturday the whole morning is John and I because the feedback that we always get is there’s never enough time for questions. So we’re just gonna hang out and just see what comes up. Um, And then everybody else.
Cathy: And then Dr. Solomon is doing the, um, you know, the final.
Todd: Yeah. And she’s doing a piece on conflict, which I think is the most underutilized topic, uh, in [00:12:00] relationships. Yeah. We’re not good at navigating conflict. Speaking of questions, we’re just going to jump right in. You ready? I’m ready. Elaine, unmute yourself and ask your question and remind us how old your kids are and all that good stuff.
Elaine: So, hello, Dr. Duffy again. I appreciate you taking questions today and everyone else’s feedback too. My kids are 13 and 16, um, and it’s 16 and a half, which I for some reason think is actually important. He’s very different than he was at 16. Um, and we’re kind of moving into a place where I’m trying to figure out ahead of time a bit, how to handle.
Elaine: The experimentation that I see that might be coming, and I have friends whose sons are already experimenting now, and a lot of us talk about working in this harm reduction model because we realize experimentation is normal, and it feels really uncomfortable at times because sometimes when the kids are honest about it, [00:13:00] and we have to respond to them saying, I’m really grateful you’re telling me this, that feels like condoning it.
Elaine: And so I’ve tried to use the language, I accept that this is going to happen. Um, at the same time, I can’t tell you that I condone what you’re doing. So I’m wondering in your practice, my worry too for a lot of us with boys is they’re a little bit more thrill seeking than girls. And so they hit that edge faster.
Elaine: And sometimes, of course, they go over the edge. I’m wondering how you handle it because I know you see this all the time in your practice. How do you talk to these young men about this kind of thing?
Todd: Yeah. Before he answers, we’re talking about drugs and alcohol, I assume? Experimenting? Okay.
Elaine: Correct.
John Duffy: So, uh, first of all, Elaine, I appreciate the distinction you make between 16 and 16 and a half.
John Duffy: It’s actually, honestly, these little gradations make a big difference, right? You know, um, and 16 and a half feels perceptively different than 16, right? 16 sometimes feels [00:14:00] like, oh, he’s still a kid. Like I could probably. We can sit out together and watch something and then 16 and a half or somewhere in there you feel like there’s this breach, like he’s kind of stepping into another, this other phase of his life, right?
John Duffy: There’s this almost generational feel of a gap there.
Elaine: Exactly.
John Duffy: And, And the experimentation part, which, again, is, to your point, is really normal, is different than it used to be, right? You know, experimentation, when I was a kid, way back in the stone ages, you know, um, I, I read this week that, um, marijuana, weed was, um, a really heavy joint, was about 4 percent THC, now a really good vape, Is it 90 percent THC and yeah.
John Duffy: Isn’t that terrifying?
Elaine: I
John Duffy: know. So
Elaine: we have all these conversations and tell them this, that means nothing to them. They have no perspective.
John Duffy: And, and, and they may know this better than you do. You [00:15:00] know what I mean? Like I learned this from a 16 year old, you know, like I didn’t know, I didn’t know these concentration levels or anything.
John Duffy: And that’s part of the solution, right? It, what you’re doing, I think is the right thing. You’re opening up the conversation. I like it. I like the fine line you’re walking of, I can’t condone this, but I, I insist on talking about it. You know, like, so we will talk about it, but know that all else being equal, I’d rather you not, you know, like, and, and here are the risks and you might know them all.
John Duffy: I’m probably going to talk about fentanyl a little bit. I’m probably going to talk about the potential of overdosing. I’m probably going to talk about the fact that weed now is an addictive drug when 30 years ago it was not. I’m probably going to be a pain with some of the facts.
Elaine: I’ve hit that point already that I have like literally saturated them in all of this information.
Elaine: Like they’re, they’re swimming in it all the time to the point that I have had to even step back from it because it, it became almost this persona that I had. And so I’ve had to kind of step back as. He [00:16:00] might be entering into this and it’s, it feels sticky, right? Because as a mother, we wonder where is their edge?
Elaine: What is too much? So I thought who better to ask than someone who works with boys in their practice all the time.
John Duffy: Yeah. So, so if I can, if I can throw in one more thought to add, first of all, Nothing you’re doing. I wouldn’t, uh, I wouldn’t detract from anything you’re doing. I think you’re heading in the right direction.
John Duffy: Um, and as long as you feel like there’s a connection there, even if you feel like I’m lecturing a little bit, but you know, like, okay, the emotional banking now we’re, we’re in the black, we’re, we’re, we’re good. Yeah. Um, then, uh, what, what I would add is a question about why, you know, like, because, uh, if you asked 20, 16 year olds, you know, okay, so you’re starting to experiment.
John Duffy: Why is that? Um, the answer to that question to me is the most important thing. If it’s like, uh, my friends are doing it, I just want to see what that’s like. I want to try it. I can, I can breathe a little bit through that, right? You know, and, but I will persist in asking that [00:17:00] question. Maybe Weekly. I’ll be a pain in the neck about it.
Elaine: Because that might change. That’s a great point.
John Duffy: Exactly. That might change. And, and it often does, right? You know, and if that why becomes, I feel so much anxiety now in my life that I’m now, now it’s medicinal for me. Now, now I wake and bake, I get up, I start smoking in the morning and then, you know, like some, I leave third period and I start smoking then.
John Duffy: And then I really can’t fall asleep without smoking.
Elaine: I can’t. Get through a weekend without drinking and relaxing, you know, and having that feeling. And I think that, God forbid, daily, but just the thought of them doing this weekly, like, I, you know, I don’t, what’s too much?
John Duffy: Right. Tough. And that depends on the kid, and that depends on the why, right?
John Duffy: You know, um, but, uh, to that point, uh, weekly, Slips into daily now really pretty readily, more so than I want to say. You know what I mean? Like I’m, [00:18:00] I’m uncomfortable saying that to you because man, uh, it is mighty work raising a 16 year old boy right now. I
Elaine: wanted to get the calendar and be like, okay, these are the weekends.
Elaine: Maybe if you’re going to experiment this one time a month, let’s just schedule this. Of course I’m saying this in jest, but I do even say that to my son and he laughs, but he understands my point when I’m saying that to him.
John Duffy: Listen, and that point will, it carries some weight with him. So that, I would keep making the point because, um, a lot of parents feel powerless.
John Duffy: Like, you know, no matter what I say, it doesn’t matter. And I can say with authority, that’s not true. Your kids are listening to you. Yeah, your word matters more than anything else. You know, even if you think, no, these peers, these kids, they’re the most influential people in the lives of my kid. That is not true.
John Duffy: Still, we are the most influential people in the lives of our kids. So I would stay on it and keep having those conversations. And the idea of adding a little playfulness to it, you know, like that takes the [00:19:00] edge off a little bit. Hey, let’s schedule this. Like that’s hilarious. And, um, A damn good idea. You know, I actually love that and might borrow it within the next week.
John Duffy: Yeah. So, you know, I think the more creative you are about it, the more playful you are about it, and the more active you are in their lives about it, the better. And one last thing, and I’m sorry to That’s good. You’re good. You know, uh, talk too much here. But one last thing is it, it’s kind of like the phone to me where the more we say.
John Duffy: Don’t do this. There might be, it’s kind of like, you know, the, uh, the mosquito drawn to light. But, um, if we say, you know, you have to do a lot of other things. Like, we will, I want your time occupied with lots of stuff, you know, I want extracurricular things. We got to get the homework done. We’ll watch a show together as a family.
John Duffy: The, the more of the, that big bell shaped curve that we fill in, the more, all this other stuff is in the margins, right? It’s, it’s something that they can only do on occasion because they’re busy. And [00:20:00] I, 10 years ago, I think I was saying, I don’t, I think our kids are too busy. Now I’m like. Busy kids. Busy kids.
John Duffy: I want them active. You know, like that keeps this other stuff away from them. At least some of the time there’s some sanctuary.
Todd: Well, before I go to Cathy, because I want her to weigh in on this very, um, normal question that Elaine is asking, um, and I don’t know if I got this from you, John, or maybe from Cathy, but it’s a little bit just, The one thing that I have found Cathy and I saying to our daughters is just hang on as long as you can before you start.
Todd: And you know, you can get into a brain science thing, but it’s the truth. The older they get, the more mature their brain is, the less of an impact it has. It almost feels like I’m on your side, like if this is the direction your life goes in, just hang on. Can you wait till 17 instead of 16 or 15 instead of 13 or whatever it is?
Todd: Because the longer you wait, the, the less impact it’s going to have. So sweetie, do you have anything?
Cathy: Yeah, I will add to that. And I loved, um, [00:21:00] everything that you guys just said. I think the nice thing about the 17 is they are becoming more of an adult, so you don’t have to talk to them in, you know, and I know you’re not, Elaine, in punitive ways anymore of here’s going to be the consequence if you come home.
Cathy: There’s nothing like that. Yeah, it’s all conversation and, and I want, you know, everybody listening to hear that is that. Sometimes the reason our kid doesn’t call to pick us up, you know, to get picked up or tell us the truth about it, maybe a negative experience they had with weed or something, is because they know they’re going to get that, like, consequence they used to get when they were 13.
Cathy: That’s not where we’re at anymore when our kids are in these later stages of their teenage years. It’s more like, let me help you through this. Let’s talk about what happened, this into what, you know, Todd just said, he’s right, we talk, all three of our daughters, we’re like, Of course you’re going to want to experiment, duh, but push it back as far as you can, because going to what John said, there’s a lot of things we want, you want to do, and you don’t want to get wrapped up with this too early.
Cathy: And there is, and you may [00:22:00] not even like it. Like there’s all that, there’s that piece you always have to leave that they, when they do experiment, it may not be their thing at all. And that’s cool too. You know, that’s the ideal, right? But just talking about, talking with them in an adult way, and this is for everybody listening.
Cathy: instead of still trying to control behavior, you’re trying to help them through something difficult. Like if they were 25 or 26, you know, and again, there are some parents out there who try and control their 25 year old as well. But I just, you know, 16. 5, 17 is like, you’re in a, you’re in such a good stage to have these conversations you’re having Elaine.
Cathy: It’s so much easier. I feel
Elaine: like I wish that there was a magic, uh, I don’t know, some sort of way to figure out when is. If they ever cross the line, right, you know, I sit and watch and kind of wait and, and, and, and I’m always wondering where’s the line, where’s the line where we need to reach out for help, or we need to have different conversations, or, and, and of course I’m borrowing trouble, right, I’m worrying [00:23:00] about something that has, has not taken place, maybe will never take place, I hope not, but it is, you know, our mom brain.
Todd: Yeah. Before we go to Jill, I know John wrote some notes down. I just want to say, Missy put something in the text. She’s like, totally. Busy kids. We expect at least one extracurricular activity or sport at all times. And it’s, it has proven helpful, uh, for the family and agreed on the please hold off as long as possible.
Cathy: Can I throw one thing in there? Because we always talk about this with John, like this is like, and because I agree with them in many ways, um, the, the one thing that’s different because I had a kid like this is if they can keep their time busy with their introverted ways. Because the ex, you know, the external, the, all the extracurriculars, I’m all for it.
Cathy: Like, you know, that’s all good. And I wanted my girls to be involved in the things they wanted to be involved in. But I also had a kid for a year or two. Her goal was to read books all the time. And I didn’t feel like I needed to be like, get out because that’s where she was in life. So it’s like, this is all [00:24:00] relative.
Cathy: And so I don’t disagree with John at all. But we just want to make sure we see our kid. And if we’ve got a real introverted kid, and then we kind of don’t need to worry about this issue as much, right? Because they’re not. You know, they’re not as, you know, social in those ways. At
John Duffy: the risk of being a pain, I want to throw one more thought in.
John Duffy: Um, the, the word, so the word I do, I’ve used for probably 15, maybe more years is like, be available as a parent, you know, be an ally and a guide and a consultant. And I’m finding lately that that word is is failing me in some, in some areas. Um, because I feel like we need to be something slightly more than that.
John Duffy: And I’m borrowing this from a mom I work with, but um, she said, you know what I am? Honestly, I’m my kid’s accomplice. Like, you know, so we, we talk through the thing together early, you know, like 12, 13, 14. 16 if necessary and we’ll talk about like, you know, okay, are you getting close to where you’re going to experiment with this thing?
John Duffy: Let’s talk about how this is going to go. Do you [00:25:00] not want to do it? Because I, I have a plan for that. Like you can, you can blame me. You can tell me. That we
Elaine: did all that too. And it worked. It helped. It did push it. It pushed it back. I think.
Todd: Yeah. Um, that’s awesome. Um, so Jill, go ahead and unmute yourself.
Todd: There you go. What’s up?
Jill: Hi. Um, so I have a 20 year old son. Um, he’ll be 21 in January. And, um, Dr. Duffy, I, I’ve read your most recent book and, um, you were just writing about my son. Um, he, Um, he was at a community college in a technology program and doing very well. Um, we know that he has, um, he was diagnosed previously with persistent depressive disorder and has some generalized anxiety as well.
Jill: Um, and did some counseling previously while he was in high school. Um, it seemed to do very well, but, um. You know, things were happening and he decided to stop going to [00:26:00] school and our rule in the house was, um, stated, you know, you either go to school, you have a job, you know, you need to be taking steps moving forward and you can choose your path and we’ll support you on that.
Jill: Um, so we’ve been having multiple conversations, um, and he’s just. I don’t say refusing, but saying that he, he just is not interested in taking any steps forward. And, and my, um, we’ve been encouraging him to go back to therapy, um, to even see, um, his regular doctor for perhaps it’s time to look at some prescriptions.
Jill: Um, and, and my question is, he’s just refusing to do counseling. He says it doesn’t help. Um, it’s not for him. And so I, I’m looking for. Different words, different, um, ways to encourage him that, that this is what he needs because both his father and I, we feel this and we’ve told him that we just feel like we, [00:27:00] you know, we need extra help.
Jill: We, we can’t, um, we need help outside the house. to help him move forward.
John Duffy: Yeah. Yeah. And, and Jo, I can hear your voice, how much you’re, how much you’re affected, how much you care about your guy. And, um, and it’s the, one of the toughest places to be as a parent, because I can, I can hear like you’ve tried so hard and it must be exhausting.
John Duffy: And I can imagine at times you’re, you feel for him. I can imagine at times you’re like, Angry and fed up with him too. Like, come on, man. This isn’t the objectively, this isn’t that hard. Just get up and get into life. Go do something. Do the thing. Um, so my, my answer to your question and, um, and this, this will probably feel a little redundant to you because you probably read about it is.
John Duffy: If you think about it for a moment, nobody wants to be in your guy’s shoes, right? Nobody wants to feel the way he feels. [00:28:00] Um, and he probably is of the belief like so many guys I work with who are in this situation that nobody understands. And what I’m learning from these guys is I don’t understand myself.
John Duffy: Like I, you know, I don’t understand why, why can’t I just go like, you know, I, they’re well aware, like, you know, there’s colleges waiting for me. There’s a job out there just waiting for me. I could just go do something. Why am I just in this room playing video games or laying down, scrolling through my phone?
John Duffy: So they don’t know any more, I think, than we do a lot of the time. Or they don’t know how to get themselves to do it. So I was talking about being your kid’s accomplice a minute ago. And part of that is, and this is a hard thing to ask, is to sit down with him and take all of this off the plate for a minute and just ask him.
John Duffy: How he is like, you know, what, uh, it’s been, it’s been a really hard year or two. Um, it’s been really hard for dad and I, uh, tell me, tell me what this is like for you, [00:29:00] you know, like, and, and in a way, if he’s not willing to come out and see a therapist, like, you know, Cathy or myself, like you can be that de facto therapist for a while and just get him to open up without judgment, nice and easy.
John Duffy: The first couple of times he might blow you off. You might have to take a few shots at this, but if he gets some insight into what’s demotivating him, you know, what’s stopping him from engaging. And it’s probably a lack of self esteem, a lack of faith in himself. Um, uh, not a whole lot of hope about. a bright future for himself, the planet, the country, you know, like a lot of kids carry a lot of these feelings.
John Duffy: So they need reasons to get out there and go. But the first thing they need is some insight into what’s going on with me and nobody’s better equipped right now to draw that insight from your guy than you, Jill. And so if you get a chance to like sit him down, take him out for a meal and just ask him like, What’s [00:30:00] this like for you?
John Duffy: Like, this sucks for us. You know that. We’ve, we’ve talked about that, but I don’t know if I understand your experience of this time. And see if you can draw his why out a little bit, you know, because that’s something he needs to understand in order to know what changes to make, because he’s got to think differently about himself or the world or the future.
John Duffy: Otherwise, even if you get him going, I’ve seen this so many times, you know, like, okay, finally he’s out there, he’s putting on the apron, and he’s going to Mariano’s, or he’s going to the College of DuPage. And, oh, we’re hoping this is going to work out, and it doesn’t, you know? Like, because he doesn’t know why he’s doing it.
John Duffy: I’m doing it to get my parents off my back. I’m doing it because I can’t stand being in my room any longer. a real deep meaningful reason for him. And so that’s what we’re looking for him to explore a little bit. And he might resist it. So my bias would be hanging there with him, ask him a few times, let him know, Hey, whenever you’re up for talking about [00:31:00] this, I’m up for talking about this.
Todd: So before I switch it over to Cathy, Jill, what are, how does that land for you?
Jill: Um, I think that’s good. It just, um, these were helpful tips in, in rephrasing the questions that I ask and I’m just looking for new words because we’ve had multiple conversations and I mean, we are fortunate that he’s, he’s been receptive to, to talking.
Jill: We’ve had some great conversations. Um, but it is, it is very frustrating because I’m a problem solving type person. And I, to me, the answers, Pretty easy in terms of we need to go to a counselor, you know, you need to take these steps. So, um, yeah, I, I, I think this, this is, this is helpful. Um, I guess my other question is I just, I try and figure out like, you know, how, how long, how long should this take?
Jill: Like, I mean, how. I mean, at what point are we harming him by, um, letting this linger, [00:32:00] because I agree, like, if he just went out tomorrow and got a job, this isn’t, that isn’t going to solve it. That’s just a, that’s just a step, but we’re not, we’re not addressing the root, root problems, I guess.
Todd: Yeah, great question.
Todd: Sweetie, you want to take a whack at that or you want to let John?
Cathy: Yeah, I mean maybe just overall because I just want to you know completely connect to what John said already is that what you’re driving for is intrinsic motivation, right? Because like John said he could get a job tomorrow But it won’t stick if he’s not if he’s unsure why he’s getting it and the conversation because you said you were looking for words is is, well, let me say this first.
Cathy: I think sometimes the people I work with have a very, um, and this is not about you specifically, Jill, but about kind of the way we look at what our kids should do. We have a very myopic view of this is the next step, then this, and then you go to school, and then you get a job. And then when they veer out of that norm, maybe negatively or positively, you know, sometimes they take gap years and do this amazing thing, but sometimes they’re like kind of stuck on the couch and they don’t know where to go.
Cathy: We try and get them back on that same path versus, like John said, sitting down and [00:33:00] saying, how is this for you? And what would bring you joy right now? And again, joy is very different, like what would numb me out? Video games, weed, all that kind of stuff. What would bring you joy? Like a kid having six months to like take a photography class and just learn how to use a camera.
Cathy: They’re not bringing in any money. They’re not going to school, but they may be like, okay. This I like, and I don’t know what that is for your son, but maybe sometimes it’s when we keep trying to get them back on the path, that’s what they’re, they’re trying to deviate from. They’re like this path. JC taught me this, my oldest daughter, who John knows really well.
Cathy: So many, so many of her friends didn’t stay in school because they’re like, this path isn’t for me. Now, interestingly, she’s a senior in college. 98 percent of them are back in school, but at a different school doing something different, work going part time, living closer to home. It takes a while, but they didn’t, don’t get me wrong, they didn’t go right back to another school, they were home for a year or two.
Cathy: So this isn’t, Sometimes we’re trying to get [00:34:00] them. I’m repeating myself. You, you got it, Jill. I mean, and John, I don’t know if you want to add anything to that. Do you find that with your, with the boys that they veer off, but then find a new path?
Todd: And just to be clear, Jill’s question is like, at what point am I hurting my kid by, by being okay with him sitting around?
Cathy: Well, and let me just speak to that very briefly is that I, I don’t, I think sometimes that time limit thing is also of myopic view of like, it’s supposed to take this much time versus this is a time. This is a time that we’re having right now and let’s start with the conversation that John suggested and then because are you hurting him by connecting with him and loving him and being there for them?
Cathy: I don’t think so. But John, you go ahead.
John Duffy: Um, first of all, I agree with everything. Cathy just said, um, and then I think we do tend to take myopic views and sometimes ancient views, right? You know, um, we, we’re still working off a playbook and, and it’s hard not to. I don’t blame anybody for this, uh, that we grew up with, right?
John Duffy: So it’s kind of like, [00:35:00] hey, we, we expected this linear path, right? You know, like four years of high school, four years of college, you get the job, you know, I get to say, Well done, you know, like, and um, and this generation of kids now, they’re not working on a linear path. And, um, big picture to Cathy’s point about like JC and her friends.
John Duffy: Um, I’m not sure they don’t have it more right than we did. You know what I mean? Like, so I think the average time it takes to graduate from college, if, if, uh, if a young person’s inclined to do that now is about four years. 5. 1 years or something. And when I was graduating, it was 4. 1 years. So everyone was just, we were all just going through the thing and speaking for myself, like I went and got an accounting degree, did this like career that didn’t suit me at all for six years.
John Duffy: Like, you know, I, I ended up having to really reconfigure 10 years later. Whereas these kids are working to figure it out now. Like there’s some inner voice saying, Hmm, this isn’t working for me. So [00:36:00] Jill, to, to the point about your guy and, and Cathy’s point, you know, this is, this might feel like a tragic time.
John Duffy: Um, but there’s probably a way to reconfigure that in your mind, just to look at it like, okay, this is a time and this is probably a time of growth and thought and, you know, and consideration and whatever adjustment you made that might feel like a fail, probably big picture. If we were to go five years into the future, probably isn’t.
John Duffy: It’s probably an adjustment that you’re making that is based on some inner wisdom. And by encouraging those conversations, it’s just to find that wisdom. It’s just for him to be able to bring that to his conscious mind out of his subconscious mind, because something told him the way I’m playing this out.
John Duffy: This is not working for my spirit. I’m going to do something different. And sometimes that’s something different is retreating. So the shoulds as easy as it is to tap those and to [00:37:00] look around on Instagram and other people’s driveways and the, and the stickers on their cars is, you know, um, is, is to take all that judgment away and say, my kid should is what he’s doing now, you know, and, um, I’m going to trust that he’s on the right path, there isn’t a right timeframe, you know, like, um, That said, I will say, I want your guy, you know, talking to a therapist sometime in the not too distant future.
John Duffy: And I would use parental leverage for that. Like, you know, once you start having a couple of these discussions and it seems like it resonates and you’re using language that it feels like he’s hearing, then I would encourage him like, you know what, to help you down this road. I don’t expect you to figure, to invent this wheel by yourself.
John Duffy: Let’s find somebody to help you with this, you know, like, because I, I’m willing to do this anytime with you, but there are professionals out there who might be able to hasten this process or mitigate some other like side roads. And so that you can get where you go, where you want to go. [00:38:00] in a cleaner way, you know?
Todd: Um, so that’s all good stuff. Before we go to Millie, who’s next, uh, it’s just a, just a few things that came up for me as both Cathy and Jen were talking is one, I want you to say, I want you to know, Jill, and you probably know this, you are not alone in this. There is a lot of parents out there going through the exact same thing you are.
Todd: So I think there’s times when we feel like, um, we’re the only ones going through this. This is a problem. I’m with, with men, young men and young women, but I would, I would. Yes, that it’s happening to more young men than young women. Uh, the other thing is, um, don’t go two or three years ahead. Just be here right now, which is such, um, trite advice, but it’s true.
Todd: Just be here, like do today. And then lastly, just with all your might, just make sure that he knows you are on his team. And I learned that from Cathy and John, like, cause if we, if we are the adversary, it’s just. for pushing him away even further. So that’s my two cents. Millie, you are [00:39:00] up. Okay.
Millie: Hi. Thank you, John, for being here.
Millie: Um, my, I’m hoping I can distill my question down, um, you know, into a, uh, an understandable, um, uh, question. So this is, so first of all, my daughter is 17. Um, I’m about to be 18 in four months and I also have twin 12 year old boys, um, who do not yet have, um, smartphones and we’re holding that off. Um, this is about developing healthy, good, you know, digital habits.
Millie: So, of course, this daughter, she was our guinea pig with having a smartphone and she didn’t get it until the 8th grade. And in hindsight of what’s now, I wish we had put a few more rules in place with the phone and a laptop usage like turning off autoplay on YouTube and say notifications with social media, you know, apps.
Millie: I did try [00:40:00] talking to her about this, um, and she gave me reasons and, uh, for why notifications were important. We’re still needed, you know, on her social media apps and stuff. Now, I, I, so that’s the background. Um, this hasn’t come up before really, uh, until this year, senior year, lots going on, she’s got to apply for colleges and she’s got extra activities.
Millie: I’m just finding now that she’s not managing her time as well. And some of it could be, you know, procrastinating and then she wants to use the phone. Some of it is just time management on the phone. I feel like we, as parents, we probably have not done as good of a job in putting those, uh, constraints in place.
Millie: We did have a contract, we, we kind of talked about all that, and then just with time, and then there were, I don’t want to bore you with some of the details, but some of that just kind of went by the wayside. I guess basically, she’s got one [00:41:00] more year here at home. Where we’re really hoping that we can help her develop healthy digital habits.
Millie: And we as adults, of course, find ourselves doing scrolling and doing all the things that are not great, right? What do you think would be the best way to address this issue with her? I mean, I’ve tried talking about it and again, she might just go, uh, you know, but at 17, you know, what would be the best way to go about kind of convincing her that, you know, these digital habits, we want to start them sooner than later.
John Duffy: Yeah. Yeah.
Millie: That
John Duffy: was probably more concise than you think. That was very clear. Um, and I get it and I get where you want to establish good digital habits with your younger guys too. And so, you know, like the more we can figure this out now, the better. Um, first of all. You know, in so many ways, you know, you’re a pioneer, right?
John Duffy: I mean, like, you know, you’re the first generation of parents, like, my son is 28. I managed, like, I was two years away from, [00:42:00] like, escaping that, you know, having to deal with precisely what you’re dealing with, which is, like, how, you know, enticing social media is, you know, like, and how easy doom scrolling is, you know, like we all fall into it.
John Duffy: I do it myself sometimes. And I have to remind myself, you know, like, so, uh, parenting through this is, is really, really hard. So the first thing I would encourage you to do is not to judge yourself. You know, I think, well, I’m working with a bunch of parents of seniors in high school right now. I did last year.
John Duffy: All of them have the same issue. You know, it’s kind of like, Oh my God, there’s so many things to do. We know colleges are going to be looking at these first semester grades. We got to get these applications in and you’re looking at your phone. Are you freaking kidding me? You know, it’s maddening in fairness to you.
John Duffy: It is maddening stuff. So, um, what, I try to get kids to talk about is what, what’s it like for you when you’re on your phone? You know, like tell me, tell me about those times. Like, you know, [00:43:00] see if you can isolate that. And a lot of them will say like, I don’t even know. Like I never thought about that before.
John Duffy: And I’m, and I my assignment to them usually for a week is like, pay attention to that, pay attention to that and let me know. And inevitably they’ll come back and say, It feels deadly. It feels, I don’t feel good about myself. I don’t feel good about where my, my standing in the world. I don’t feel good about my body.
John Duffy: And I know I’m just like wasting time and passing time. And, um, and when kids get some insight into that, That’s when they’re likely to make some change, right? Without having a rule imposed upon them. And I think it’s so hard, especially at 17 to say, all right, now we’re going to change how you do social media because there’s so many ways around it that you’re effectively creating a liar then out of your child who’s about to head off into school.
John Duffy: I also get the urgency. You probably feel like we have this one year and then she’s going to go off and she’s going to sit in some dorm somewhere. And all she’s going to do is doom scroll. And we’re going to see her back here by, you know, [00:44:00] Thanksgiving. So I get all the panic around this, right? But if you, if she gets some insight into what this is like for her, uh, I’ll just tell you, like my experiences lately with kids is.
John Duffy: Oh, yeah. Once I pay attention to this, I gotta cut back on this. Like, there is this, there’s this backlash in this generation, in your daughter’s age, right in that age group, where they’re starting to realize, like, I gotta put some constraints on this. I’m burning so many hours a day, and they know. They’re paying, they’re watching, they’re watching their usage.
John Duffy: And they know like I’m burning so many hours a day. I’m wasting my time and I feel lousy about this. Um, I I’ll give you my two success stories. I’m working with a senior boy and a senior girl right now who decided to, and I hope this isn’t appropriate. I haven’t determined whether it is yet to raw dog the internet.
John Duffy: What they have smartphones, but they carry flip phones with them. Part of this is, you know, [00:45:00] I’m such a badass that I don’t need to look at my, uh, uh, social media all day long. I look at it a little bit in the morning and a little bit at night. So part of it’s a little showy, it’s a little flashy, but part of it is also like, I feel better.
John Duffy: I feel better if I’m only looking at all that stuff for a few minutes a day and I’m looking at my email and other stuff during the day, but I’m not doom scrolling. I’m not doing that thing that just has me occupied for hour after hour thoughtlessly. So that’s a real thoughtful way that kids are handling this, but there are other ways too.
John Duffy: A lot of them are just putting it down more often. They’re encouraging, they’re asking their friends like, Hey, if you see me staring at my phone during lunch, can you just tell me, like, what it is? Down, you know, like, and so, and they’re, they’re helping each other out with this. So that’s the kind of conversation I would encourage you to have with your daughter is like, you know, how can we, can your friends, can the people around you encourage you to not feel the way you do?
John Duffy: And [00:46:00] I’ve not run into the kid who says it feels great to me, you know, so I don’t think your, your daughter is going to be in that category. I think she’s going to agree. Yeah, I’m just, um, I’m mindlessly doing this and I don’t feel good about it. So, you know, if we get some other people employed to help out that work, that works, and that works going into the college years too.
Todd: Um, so just so I understand, John, so, and I know this is just a small sample size, but there’s some kids that get a flip phone and some of it, so like, Hey, look at how good I am at not. being a part of the system of the smartphone. Um, and they just use that to do the basics. And then at night, they’ll give themselves an hour or two hours or whatever it is to go doomscroll.
Todd: Is that kind of the deal? That’s
John Duffy: that’s the deal. And it’s, um, my sample size right now is two. I worked with other kids who’ve done this and there, and I’ve heard stories of a lot of kids who are doing this.
Todd: Interesting. Yeah. Um, and then Captain Obvious here, [00:47:00] It’s not a fair fight. These algorithms are so powerful to seduce us to scrolling, you know, Cathy Knight at night, like, okay, let’s just do it for 20 minutes.
Todd: 35 minutes later, we’re still trying to find more stuff that makes us laugh. So, it’s not a fair fight, and the only way to do it is to remove it from the game. Something where it’s easy for me to do, like, would have to just get, it’s just really hard to turn the damn thing off.
Cathy: It is. And you know, the, the thing that’s nice, Millie, is it’s very similar to what we’re saying to Elaine about now that your daughter is 17 years old, it’s not going to be disciplinary and you’re not even teaching her anymore.
Cathy: You gotta pull out of that mode of, how do we teach my daughter? You’re now a peer with her. And again, everybody, I understand she’s not really, she’s still the parent. I’m just talking about the way we communicate is that now it’s less about how do we teach her? How do we show her? And more about how do we relate to her?
Cathy: How do we talk to her about this in a way where she, because let me tell you, I, I wrote about this and I know John sees this too. The reason that kids [00:48:00] give for not talking to their parents about their issues with the phone is their parents then take. Their phones. And we have got to stop jumping to that because that keeps them from talking to us.
Cathy: And we, they, they know that then as their social life is gone, their connection is gone, their way of getting, you know, into power school is gone. Like, it’s not a good solution. It doesn’t mean we can’t have limits and all of that kind of stuff and boundaries. It’s just, like, We need to like open up the conversation versus instead of pointing out to where this is distracting you because when I was trying to do my application my senior year before any of this stuff existed, it was you’re on the phone too much.
Cathy: You’re on, there’s always something because they’re distracted because it’s all scary. Do you know what I mean? They’re distracted from doing, and yes, the phone is an issue, but instead of the phone is keeping my kid from doing an application, something else would have been, you know, keeping them. It’s all hard.
Cathy: So, the conversation is more about, I totally agree with John, how do you feel? Like my daughter, And my middle daughter who’s in college, she’s been, she said [00:49:00] that she has this big gap between two classes and she found herself scrolling all the time in her room. And she said it made her feel so crappy that she ordered a book that Skylar suggested and now is like stuck in this novel series.
Cathy: And she’s like, I feel like a different person. She’s like, It’s like, I thought I couldn’t read these books anymore. And now, but I didn’t tell her to do that. She did it. She did it. We talked to her again. This is intrinsic motivation. We talked to her about like what John said, how does it feel when you’re on?
Cathy: Like, I know when I’m on for longer than 30 minutes, I’m like, I’ve lost, I’ve lost the narrative of my life. And so you’re relating rather than imposing. It’s such a different feel. And you’re there because she’s 17.
Todd: Um, so before we go to Missy, any final thoughts?
Millie: No, this is such great advice. I mean, and actually just the other day I tried to get.
Millie: You know, on her level, because she’s struggling with these college essays. And I said, honey, man, I hated writing when I [00:50:00] was in high school. It was so hard for me. And, and I basically, I, you know, I empathize with her and then, and then I asked her questions like, so what, and I, what is the hardest thing? And I, you know, X, Y, or Z.
Millie: And then, and then she actually chimed in and. And told me versus if I said, you should be doing this, you know, you know what I mean? Cause I have ideas, right? And like, I know what she could be doing, but instead of saying it that way, I just got in there with him and like, Hey, I went through this too. And so thank you actually.
Millie: Cause my husband and I were trying to think, are, should we sit down with her and like, look at that contract again? And you know, but. Yeah. I think this other way might be better because she’s only been in school’s just beginning. She’s so tired. I’m like, Hmm, what’s up with that? You know? So I don’t know.
Millie: Is it the book? We don’t know. But I would maybe explore that. So thank you.
Todd: Thanks, Millie. Missy, you’re up.
Missy: Sorry about that. Hi. Um, thanks for taking my call or my phone. [00:51:00] My question. Um, I love the raw dogging the internet. I’m still really trying to understand what that means, and I’ve heard it so many different ways, and I’m not exactly sure I understand it but it’s hilarious. And I love slang. I love our language, and, and it just makes me giggle,
Missy: Um, so I love having teenagers right now. Just for a little background, I have a 14-year-old daughter and a 16-year-old son, 16 and a half, um, . And we’re dealing with a little different issue than experimentation. Um. It came up because of baseball, and I think that a lot of times sports and extracurricular activities bring things up, um, and so we’re not worried about the baseball part of it.
Missy: We’re worried about the bigger picture, and the bigger picture is that the team that my son has been on. Is really toxic [00:52:00] and the, the main coach has had my son wrapped around his finger for about four years now. He kind of butters him up and then he lets him down. And, and my son doesn’t feel let down at all.
Missy: And that’s not the point. The point is there’s a lot of manipulation going on and we’re trying to help our son understand the manipulation part of it. We don’t care about the baseball part of it. And so. Um, we’ve been in therapy, um, why my son went, talked to the therapist about it, then I went in and I was like, how do I support my son through this, because this is small stakes stuff, and so we’d like for him to learn how to see manipulation, be aware of it, and then address it for himself as he moves through the world.
Missy: And he’s very much, um, a follower, kind of, in that way, where he’s very intrigued by the groupthink and the, the cool kids and whatnot. Um, so we’re just trying to help [00:53:00] him with that. Um, like I said, we have our therapist on board, but I would just say, Curious what some of your thoughts might be for helping someone gain awareness at this age.
Missy: Before
Todd: we jump in, and you may not be willing to share this Missy, but can you give me an example of what the manipulation looks like just so I can better understand your question?
Missy: I’ll try to make it brief. You know, these things often get very complicated. Um, we historically in Montana have not had high school baseball, but I pushed it through the school district and we got it and we funded it.
Missy: Thank you. Um, it was a big push and it was for my whole community. It wasn’t just for my son. And anyway, so this other team that he’s been playing for is a private team. It’s called Legion Baseball. And that coach has Always been toxic, not just when this high school baseball thing. He pulled my son into his office privately without anyone else there and told him he should not play high school baseball, [00:54:00] um, to me.
Missy: And he did that to many kids on the team, not just my kid. Um, so that to me is, it’s, it’s an abuse of power, um, and it’s manipulation. He was like, well, if you play high school baseball, we may not have a place on the roster for you. It’s that kind of BS. And, and it’s just ugly. So I hope that gives a little perspective.
Missy: Thank you.
Todd: That does help. Um,
John Duffy: John, what do you think? Yeah. Um. Yeah, it does help, actually. Uh, first of all, kudos to you for getting baseball out there, you know, in Montana. I did not know that that was a thing, but well done. Um, and I think you’re looking at, um, athletics, um, and any other, other extracurricular the right way, right?
John Duffy: You know, it’s not about the baseball. It’s not about the swimming. It’s not about the play. It’s not about the band. It’s, you know, This is about, like, becoming a human being in the world, right? And, you know, like, um, and how am I in these groups, in these difficult situations, you know, [00:55:00] like, what do I have agency over, right?
John Duffy: You know, what, what do I have no control over? And so to recognize, like, okay, so that. is a really small minded thing to do, right? That, that, and that’s hurtful. And to recognize that and to have the emotional intelligence to, um, acknowledge your own feelings. Um, maybe even to think about like, I wonder what it’s like to be this coach, you know, like, All around, there’s room for discussion about, like, what the dynamic is at play and still continue to play baseball unless it’s, unless it gets overly toxic, right?
John Duffy: If it becomes too much. But I think you’re kind of hitting on why all this stuff matters. Why we bother bringing our kids to all of these events and, you know, getting them involved. It’s really, they’re learning to become adults, right? And a lot of times, I think the worst coach And I’m thinking about, uh, somebody in particular, uh, who was a baseball coach here in Chicago.
John Duffy: I worked with three of his players and they all told [00:56:00] me the same story. And, um, and really you could feel these guys just learning how to manage that adversity and be themselves in the world. And to their parents credit, their parents didn’t do all the heavy lifting. Sometimes these kids had to say like, Hey, coach, that’s not very nice.
John Duffy: Or that’s not very cool. And. Then everybody has to run laps around the football field, but there’s a little bit of like, way to go, dude. Like, you know, that was the right thing to do. And so I think kind of like for kids to hear their compasses of morality and kindness and right and wrong and all that stuff, sometimes you have to be exposed to the ugly thing, right?
John Duffy: You know, and, um, and here your guy is, and he has this opportunity now to rise to a difficult occasion, and he’s going to run into that in life. This is going to happen again. And he’ll have that practice effect, right? You know, where he may be shocked for a moment and then he’ll be remembered like, Oh yeah, this reminds me of coach Schmidt way back then, you know?
John Duffy: So I think I know how [00:57:00] to handle and manage this thing, especially if mom and dad didn’t just like go into the principal and dig me out of that hole. But I, I was part of that process of like managing that very, very difficult situation with that adult in authority, you know? Like, I think there’s Just massive opportunity, um, in what feels like an unfortunate, um, almost deal breaking situation, right?
John Duffy: Because a lot of times we get mad at these coaches because like, hey, a year ago, my kid loved baseball. You’re making him hate baseball now. You know, like I can imagine wanting to just walk into the dugout and slap this guy. But kudos to you if that’s not what you’re doing and you’re teaching him to manage it.
Todd: Um, for some reason, I feel, uh, compelled to bring Elaine in because I think she has a perspective.
Elaine: I live this every day, Missy. Every day. And the culture here is so toxic, even at the high school level, in the schools, not the travel clubs or the pay to play clubs, [00:58:00] but the schools. And I had to come to a deep reckoning a year ago that this is what my kids want to do.
Elaine: They both play baseball, by the way. They both play very competitively as well. This is what my, and on top of it, it’s like, Oh, here, go deal with this bullshit. And I’m going to pay 5, 000 on your behalf to do something. So it’s at a whole new level. So I, I empathize deeply with you, but I knew for myself, I had to come to a point where.
Elaine: I was like, this is the way it is. Like, this is literally the way it is. And funnily enough at the conference, you guys, I was raging about this because I got a phone call about baseball while I was there. And it was after that point that I thought I have to stop this. I have to stop looking at it this way.
Elaine: This is what they want to do. So instead I’ve just changed. I’ve morphed into the person that’s like, okay, this is your arena right now to learn to deal with bullshit. And this is going to appear in your life in so many different ways over and over again. And it is still hard because I feel like I’m [00:59:00] acquiescing to the middle aged archaic white men that run all of this.
And
Elaine: it’s, it’s really hard. It’s really hard, but I can tell you that my oldest has come. He can now advocate better for himself even at school, um, and even differently with us because he’s had to learn how to navigate some of this stuff. And toxic? Oh gosh. And are they manipulated all the time? Yes. And then they tell the parents, we don’t want parent involvement.
Elaine: Right? You want your son to do this, right? So they keep us out of it completely, which is probably good in the end because I want to set them on fire sometimes. It’s really hard.
I agree with
Jill: that Elaine. And I, yeah, it is baseball. That’s its own thing, but I think every sport has its version of this. Um, and I, and we do, we want him to, we don’t involve ourselves in it.
Jill: It’s just the things he comes home and says that I’m like, you do realize you’re being manipulated right now, right?
Missy: Deconstruct it. Yep. I
Missy: just feel like he’s not [01:00:00] picking up the clues and he’s being, he’s being swayed by this person who is a very keen manipulator. But even if he is
Elaine: picking up the clues, he almost has no choice but play the game, right?
Elaine: Like he has to be swayed to play that game and to participate or he is the what the squeaky wheel and none of them want to be that on the team too. You know what I’m saying? So I feel like my kids got an understanding because we talk about it ad nauseum. When all this is happening. And I also recognize and help him talk about the fact he has no choice and here’s 5, 000 more dollars to shit on my kid.
Elaine: You know what I’m saying? So it. I hear ya.
Cathy: Yeah. And well, and that’s, I mean, everything you guys are saying is your son is developing critical thinking and it, but in the middle of developing critical thinking is the messy time and the manipulation. Just like John said, I kept like pointing to him because everything he was saying is what I would exactly say is that [01:01:00] you don’t understand manipulation until you’ve been manipulated.
Cathy: You, you don’t understand how to speak to it until you’ve been forced to. You don’t, and, and again, there’s this whole section in my book, it’s like my favorite part, and it’s about high control groups and cults. And everyone’s, you know, my editor’s like, why are you putting this in here? Because it’s real.
Cathy: And this is a thing I see young girls, and I’m sure boys getting involved in too, it just sounds like it, where they get super controlled. by like a charismatic leader, and we try and call it something else like sports, when really that is high control. That is, they are being, they’re being gaslit, they, they’re being love bombed, they’re, they’re being, you know, isolated from other people.
Cathy: These are all parts of what cultish things do. Now again, notice I say high control groups. I’m very calm. I’m very like. careful about not calling everything cult because then we lose its value. But my point is, is you don’t then say, well, then you’re out because of this, but you say, this is real. And so we talk about this at home.
Cathy: We talk about these words. We talk about manipulation. We talk about [01:02:00] love bombing, and then he gets to figure it. But just like Elaine said, he’s in high school. He’s in the middle of it. He either does it. Or he doesn’t do it. And, and so how does he, and you’re helping him through this, like, just the fact that he comes home and tells you, and of course, most of us as parents are like, we want to solve it.
Cathy: I mean, my daughter just told me something yesterday, just told Todd and I something that a teacher said to her, and we were like, what? And you know, my first thing was like, Do you want me to call? You know, I’m always like, because why I do that, I know I’m not going to. I want her to know I’m on her side, that I see it’s not fair, that I’m going to be just as annoyed as she is.
Cathy: That’s my first thing is I see it and she’s like, oh good, because I felt really sad and I woke up this morning feeling sad. I’m like, I see it too. And then it’s like, then we get into like John said, what is, why is that teacher doing that? What’s happening? This is all critical thinking and they need that.
Cathy: They need bad things. We’re not going to put bad things on it. It’s going to
Todd: happen either way. But it’s going to
Cathy: happen for them to learn how to navigate it. And this is again, [01:03:00] you know, everything John and Todd and I talk about, have a relationship with your kid so you can talk about these things with your kid because you can’t keep them from happening.
Cathy: These people, these coaches, especially here, In Chicago area. I know John knows. Chicago land is interesting. And I’m sure everywhere. It’s everywhere. I know. It’s just what I know.
Todd: And at the risk of taking air out of the balloon, it’s funny because you just finished saying, John, about how important extracurriculars are.
Todd: So there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of wonderful things about youth sports or orchestra or painting or whatever. Um, and you know, there’s, there’s good and bad in all of this.
Cathy: And amazing coaches. And amazing teachers and difficult teachers and difficult coaches. So we’re not going to us and them. We’re not going to like point to the school and say they’re the problem.
Cathy: It’s human beings and it’s who’s in charge. And you know.
Todd: So as we bring this Zen Talk slash podcast to a close, um, I want to thank everybody on the team for showing up today. This is kind of what [01:04:00] Cathy and I do every few weeks. Get John in that seat as often as we can, at least a few times a year. And we have other experts.
Todd: Um, don’t forget to pre order Cathy’s book called Restoring Our Girls.
Cathy: Our Girls pre order and go get John’s book, Rescuing Our Sons. Have them both. Put them on your mantle. That’s right. Boys, girls,
Todd: um,
Cathy: and Todd, get your tickets for the conference.
Todd: That’s right. I was going to go there next. So January 24th, 25th, um, it’s our last one.
Todd: We’re going to try our best to go out with a bang or we have a wonderful lineup of speakers. It’s not a conference. It’s a kind of a self awareness party. That’s what I’m going to call it. ZenCon And my hope is that, so all the details, all you do is scroll a little bit in the show notes of this podcast and you can learn more.
Todd: Um, I’m going to put the link to John’s book, to Cathy’s book, to Team Zen, which we’d love for you guys to try out. And then for the conference. So there’s a lot of good stuff.
Cathy: Yeah. And like [01:05:00] any parting thoughts that John has, like anything that is going on that it can be stuff you’re doing that you want to share, but any like.
Cathy: I just want you to have the final word on this. There
John Duffy: you go. Okay, cool. Quick thought. Um, two quick thoughts. First of all, please come to the conference, guys. I want to see I want to see your faces there. It’s going and I I cannot tell you if you haven’t been and for those of you who have, I’m speaking to the choir, the.
John Duffy: The feel good, this, this is place that like the greatest time of year where it feels like, oh, this is a dead zone. Nothing good is ever happening at this time of year. And then this conference comes in technicolor into your life and makes you believe again, kind of like certain presidential elections. Um, uh, my final thought, um, about, about your kids is, um, I, I, I’m so, I don’t want to underestimate the degree to which I’m so deeply concerned [01:06:00] about our kids these days.
John Duffy: Um, I am forever grateful to work with them every day because they also, they don’t know the degree to which they are good and they are kind and they are talented and smart and thoughtful and, um, that. The future is brighter than they know, you know, so I think the more we reflect that to them, it doesn’t have to be a lecture, doesn’t have to be direct, but just like a little light in our eyes directed their way.
John Duffy: Um, you know, I think I see kids, I have the luxury of seeing kids in a different light than maybe parents or Baseball coaches or some other people and they’re, this, this group of kids coming up, they’re lovely human beings and we just, we need to create some gentle space for them because the world out there for them is super, super harsh.
Todd: [01:07:00] That’s a wonderful way to close. Unfortunately, I’m not going to let that be the last word, sweetie. Missy had one question, and other listeners might have the same question. What is love bombing?
Cathy: Oh, um, good question. So love bombing is where somebody comes on really strong, really quickly, really early. And what their goal is in doing that is to get you in a place where you also are depending on that love and that connection.
Cathy: And you’re feeling that specialness, possibly for the first time. And then once they know they’ve got you there, then they start to control or manipulate or dump on you or, you know, decrease your self esteem by telling you that all the things I told you before, they don’t really believe. So this happens in one on one relationships, like if you’ve ever been in an emotionally abusive relationship, which I have been, this is exactly what happened.
Cathy: I was told I was loved in a week and a half. You know what I mean? It happened really fast. And then all of a sudden, once you’re in. Then it’s, and then this happens with [01:08:00] organizations where they love you and they’re the best and we couldn’t do this without you. This happens on team sports, this happens, and love bombing is a form of manipulation.
Cathy: So it is, you know, what we always say to kids is you don’t want to be overly skeptical of people, but you want to be skeptical of people that come on too strong or people that say the only way is this. The only way is me. The only way is this organization. You want to be skeptical of that. Because anytime someone says, everything you’ve been feeling and hurting, I can solve.
Cathy: Bullshit. That’s not true. That is not the way it works. And so, this is why critical thinking is important. Because sometimes when we’ve been wanting a relationship, or wanting a group, or wanting a friend group, and then they come in and say, you’re the one we’ve been waiting for. It can be pretty enticing.
Cathy: I’ve done it. I’ve been in some cult like situations, everybody. This is why I write about it. And so I’m very like careful when I talk to kids and they get really excited about a person or a thing. I don’t dump on it, but I [01:09:00] say, how do you feel about this? Do you feel like they see you? Do you feel like you’re getting your needs met?
Cathy: Critical thinking. That’s all.
Todd: Thanks, sweetie. And thank you, Dr. Duffy. And thank you, Team Zen. And thanks to all the listeners. Hope to see you at the conference, reading the books, and, um, joining Team Zen if you feel like it. Keep trucking, everybody.
Do, do, do, do, do, do, do.
