[00:00:00]
Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd, This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is episode number 781. Why listen Zen Parenting Radio because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s wellbeing is a parent’s self understanding. Uh, on today’s show, I think we have the title.
Todd: You, me, and we. Yeah,
I like that.
Todd: Um, but I also have some things I want to share before we get into the main content of it.
Cathy: Which is you, me, and we. We’re going to talk about what that means.
Todd: Yes.
And it’ll help with your relationships. I think your communication within your relationship.
Todd: Yeah. High stakes relationship, low stakes relationship, but more.
Todd: Kind of the high stakes. The no stakes relationship. The [00:01:00] no stakes relationship. Um, I’m going to do this, where’s my, where’s my sound effect? Tournament of bats. Tournament of bats. Tournament of bats. Old school. I’ve been meaning to bring this up to you for a while. I complain to you every time we’re watching a sporting event, you know what I’m about to say?
Okay, let me think. You complain to me every time you’re watching a sporting event. This is
Todd: so stupid, why do they do this?
No, I don’t know what you’re going to say.
Todd: Sideline reporter. Sideline reporter. Sideline interviews. Sideline interviews. Doesn’t matter if it’s baseball, basketball, football. It doesn’t matter.
Todd: The coach doesn’t want to be interviewed. No, like they’ll do it in halftime.
That’s what I was going to say. We need to put some parameters around this. When the game is over and they interview people, it makes sense. Yeah, that’s fine. Okay. Yeah, like during the game. During the game. Like when they’re like, let’s talk.
Let’s take it down to the coach and see how they think this first quarter is going. And the coach is in the middle of coaching. Right.
Todd: But they’re like, um, it’s going fine. The most generic, yeah, it’s the most generic [00:02:00] answer. And they even have it like in baseball, they will put a mic on the third baseman and the announcers will be talking to third baseman as he’s fielding a ground ball.
Todd: What? Yeah. Now, that’s just really interesting. The guy must get paid to do that because like, what if he makes an error, he’s distracted talking to the announcer and a ball’s getting hit and towards him. Wait,
are you telling me that a third baseman is playing baseball and he’s talking to someone while playing baseball?
I don’t know how the team is okay with that. You have got to be attuned to what’s happening.
Todd: Long games, 162 games, 3 hour games, it’s just a lot of time. And you know, on the field, you’re constantly talking to your teammates. So, um, so But it’s very different when you think
you’re on national
Todd: TV. Right. So, uh, and they do it with outfielders, they do it with a bunch of people.
Todd: So anyways, just, I’m not getting anything out of it, so I want them to change, so.
Or just, the worst is, I’m thinking about in the WNBA or in college basketball before, like I’m thinking about Caitlin Clarke, like it would be halftime and she’d be like [00:03:00] leaving and they’d like stop her and they’d be like, so what are you going to do in the second half?
She’s like, uh. Come on, play again and do our bet like she wants to go. And I understand that to your point, there are contracts and obligations. Like I know, you know, this has all been discussed ahead of time, but it just seems really, I don’t like watching them.
Todd: Yeah.
I’m not getting any input.
Todd: No, it’s just dumb.
Todd: It’s just dumb. Uh, second thing, um. Is
it also a tournament of add this next thing? Yeah, this
Todd: is another tournament. Okay. Um, I was excited for my burrito last night from Chipotle. Chipotle does not give this podcast any money. So this is just out of the kindness of our heart promoting Chipotle. And uh, about a month or two ago, we talked about how we make our burritos.
Todd: We order from Chipotle and then we, we kind of mix it up.
You get a bowl and you order a side tortilla
Todd: and then you make your own burrito. In a frying pan and you melt some cheese on it and it’s really good. It’s really special. Um, and you are still doing that. I’m like, I’m too lazy. So yesterday, so my problem is I get a lot of stuff in my burrito and they, [00:04:00] they’ve been breaking a lot.
Todd: So I’m like, all right, I know I’m going to get all the salsa on the sides. Okay. Hoping that they won’t break. Now what happened was I got it. And. It was just a little baby burrito. Well, duh. I know. I wanted the maker to supplement some of the absence of my salsas with chicken, rice, beans, but they just kept the same amount.
Todd: Now, how would they know any different, right?
Well, and that’s what they’re supposed to do. Just because your burrito doesn’t have a lot of stuff doesn’t mean they’re going to fill it up with
Todd: more
stuff.
Todd: I’m not blaming them. I, I was like secretly hoping it would work out, but it didn’t. So my next plan, cause I even put double cheese on it, which helps.
Todd: I think I’m going to pay for double meat next time. And then I, so that’s, you
can also just do the bowl Todd and make your own, like do the bowl with chicken because like half of my bowl is still there after I make my burrito. Yeah. So if you do the bowl and get the side [00:05:00] tortilla, you can then fill it up the way you want to.
I think you are asking someone who doesn’t know you to read your mind.
Todd: Yeah. Oh, that’s totally true. Totally true. So yeah, my, my, my goal of, of enhancing my burrito experience. failed miserably and I own it. Okay. I was just kind of hoping it would change things up and it didn’t. So if anybody has any good tips for me, let me know.
Todd: Chipotle tips. Chipotle tips. Um, we could do a whole podcast about this and we’re not going to, but last week on The Daily, which is a podcast, there was a podcast called The Push to Ban Phones in School.
Okay.
Todd: Okay. I’m just going to play about 30 seconds of it and then we’re just going to have a quick discussion about it.
Todd: You good with that? Uh, sure. I’m good.
And The phones are detracting from learning. And that is something that every teacher says. I mean, honestly, this seems kind of like a no brainer. I mean, banning phones in school seems basically like something that, for the most part, everybody would agree with. It does seem like a no brainer, and there are a [00:06:00] lot of folks in favor of it, but there’s also a lot of debate.
And so, for example, we see that The majority of parents in surveys say that they agree that cell phone use should be limited, but 50 percent of parents say that there should be some cell phone access during school. And while the laws are
Todd: So we’re just going to just stop it there and we’re not going to have an exhausted conversation about this.
Todd: I just want it. So what it says in the summary is that Uh, eight states have passed laws, issued orders, or adopted rules to curb phone use among students during school hours. And I just want to say I’m totally on board with this. Okay. And, um, I, and even our kid, our high schooler, um, they have a rule. that if they are caught with their phone in the classroom, what happens?
Todd: Do you remember?
Well, why don’t we say this a different way, rather than the expectation in our girls, in our youngest daughter’s high school now, and this wasn’t the case when my other two daughters were at the high school, were that they can’t have [00:07:00] their phone in the classroom, or it has to be put away, not in the classroom.
Anywhere near them because it used to be that if you were done with your work, you could then go on your phone Yeah, which seems crazy right but that’s it’s what it was so you can’t have your phone in the classroom But you can have it during passing periods and at lunch Now we were talking with my daughter about that So it’s less about then they’ll do this to you and more about this is what the expectation is, of course Um, there are kids who are pulling their phone out occasionally and breaking rules because that’s what kids do You know what I mean?
Yeah Um, in the podcast, they were talking about how at the schools that can’t have a cell phone that there are actually people driving around in golf carts, um, oh boy, um, there we’re getting texts, um, there’s people driving around in golf carts, um, like going up to the kids and saying, come with me and then driving, very
Todd: aggressive, yeah, driving
them to the office and then locking up their phone.
So we, that’s not happening at our daughter’s high school, but they’re trying to. Put [00:08:00] some parameters around it, some boundaries around it. And I think it’s a good start. And we may say, well, duh, you should have done it a long time ago. But again, that’s how the culture moves. Like, you know, there was when my youngest kids were, you know, starting middle school or whatever, this wasn’t an issue, right?
It wasn’t that big of a deal where
Todd: In the podcast, COVID had a lot to do with it, you know, coming back from COVID. So it’s, I actually think it’s pretty simple is, um, the less cell phone availability. at school the better.
Right. Well, and, and this is the thing. I’m, I’m, I’m an open, how do I say this? I am learning as we go because I have, I’m not like angry.
Like I can’t believe kids are having phones in school because I have been grateful that my kids have had phones in school. Occasionally I had a daughter who had some school anxiety for a while and I was glad she had a phone because that was a way that we communicated. Um, I’m sorry to say this, [00:09:00] but. We live in a culture that has a lot of gun violence, and unfortunately it’s been an issue in schools, and to know that I have access to my kid, it may not solve anything, but there’s something that feels comfortable to me.
There is the part of my daughter, you know, texting us and saying, And this doesn’t happen all the time, everybody, so don’t worry. But like, you know, I forgot my lunch or, you know, we’re trying to figure out where to drop off her car because we had to take it in or something. And it’s just convenient. So I’m not saying it’s right, but I’m just saying we have some convenience with being able to talk to our kids while they’re in school.
I’m not texting my daughter random things while she’s in the middle of class. It’s just a way of communicating if needed. Now, of course, we’re going to talk about Parents will say, well, if you need to get them, call the office. They’ll get a message. It’s just not as convenient. But I like the idea being a teacher myself.
’cause I struggle with this, with my college students. I like the idea of that in the classroom while you’re learning [00:10:00] there’s no phones.
Todd: Yeah. You know, that makes sense. And I don’t know why that’s not a rule everywhere.
Yeah. It, it that, that to me is kind of a no-brainer, but it just took us a while to get there.
Todd: And I’m just wondering why did it take us so long to get here? And it’s not even universal. Like there’s plenty of places right now where kids are supposed to be listening to their teacher or doing their work, and they’re on their phones in the classroom. Well,
and here’s the thing, like I think that’s, you know, Todd, you and I have been talking about this lately because we’ve been having to organize a lot of things and manage things and, you know, There’s a lot people can talk, talk, talk about what should be done, but who’s the person who’s actually doing it?
Mm-Hmm. . That’s a completely different thing. You have to have somebody who leads, who knows how to talk to people and communicate what the plan is and why you have to have someone who’s willing to research the data. And you know, there’s a lot of. There’s more there than just, why didn’t they get it done?
It’s like, it’s a bureaucracy. Yeah. Schools are, and that it’s just, it is because it’s hard to come to agreement. So, but I think where you are is you’re glad [00:11:00] something’s happening.
Todd: For sure. For sure. Um, all right. So before we get into you, me, and we, um, we are having a podcast thing happening on Friday.
Oh, that’s this Friday?
Right.
Todd: So, the podcast listeners are going to be able to hear this next week. We may or may not be making a big announcement on some upcoming Zen Parenting news. But if you’re on Team Zen, you’re going to be on with Kathy and I.
You know, it’s really funny. This is a text from Duffy and he’s saying he can’t do Friday.
Todd: Oh my goodness. I know.
It literally just came in as you started talking.
Todd: That’s hilarious. Well, hold off on John Duffy coming up for it.
He literally just texted and had said, Hey, um, he’s going to be, can I, so yeah. So anyway, we don’t need to read you. I’m so glad that
Todd: you, uh, I’m so glad that you read that.
Well, you know what happens, Todd? And I don’t think this is a good thing. While we’re taping, my messages pop up on my computer.
Todd: Yeah. Why don’t you,
Yeah, and I need to change that, but that’s why I just saw
Todd: it. I can see every time when you get a [00:12:00] text in that your eyes go to the upper right. To the upper right hand corner, I
know.
Todd: And I know I’ve lost you for a few seconds.
For a few seconds, but I’m, it’s been this way always, so this isn’t a new thing. No,
Todd: um, but we will be doing will be doing it, yeah. So if you’re on Team Zen, uh, Kathy and I will be there with you, supporting you, answering your questions. Questions. We have a new Team Zen member.
Todd: It’s Leanne from New Buffalo. Hi Leanne. I’m so glad that she’s on board. And, uh, if you wanna know more about z uh, team Zen, just uh, click on the link in, um, in the show notes and you can learn more. It,
it’s actually Leanne and her partner, her husband. Yeah. And which is something we want you guys to know.
’cause if you join Team Zen, your partner. Part of Team Zen then, too. That’s
Todd: right. So you don’t have to buy it twice. It’s like a two for one deal.
Yeah, so anyway.
Todd: Okay, you, me, and we. There’s a lot of different directions we can go. You, me, and we. You, me, and we. Yeah, you said that
right. I’m sorry.
Todd: But why don’t you start?
Okay, so Todd and I have been having to, you know, some work things and personal things where we’ve been having to figure out how to communicate [00:13:00] effectively. Not, it’s actually hasn’t really been between us. It’s been with other people. But we’ve been kind of discussing how best we can communicate with people so everybody feels heard and so that we also feel like we are also including us and our needs in the conversation, and then recognizing how whenever we’re having a conversation with someone, we’re actively in trying to engage the we aspect, like Let’s, let’s do this together rather than be against each other.
So Todd and I have been really kind of practicing not only together, but out in the world. Like, how do we have these conversations? And we really just narrowed it down to, which I kind of just said in a longer way, you always start with you.
Todd: So let’s say you and I are having this conversation. Okay. So yeah,
like, I feel like we should have a few of them to recognize what this really means.
Sure. So you, me, and we. So you is when you’re talking with someone, you first need to acknowledge Them. [00:14:00] Okay? Because a lot of times people jump too quickly into themselves. And so they go to me first. Like, you know, someone will speak like, uh, you know, Todd would say something to me and I would first say, well, I don’t like that.
Or that doesn’t work for me. Or that’s not okay. Or you’re, you’re not hearing me or whatever. Versus the first thing you start with when you’re communicating with someone is you. So if Todd said something to me, instead, it would be. Okay, so what you’re telling me is it sounds like you’re getting frustrated about this, or this is what’s happening, you know, and, and in real formal listening, we may say, is that correct?
I don’t do that. I think that that’s really formal and can sometimes throw people off, but the whole point of you is ensuring that you’re listening. You know, I am paying attention to what you’re saying to
Todd: me. Well, and you don’t have to say, is that correct? Say, Hey, did I get that right? Is there anything I missed?
Todd: You know, you could, you can make it conversational. I know.
I’m so, you’re, you’re right. And I think everybody should, I’m glad it’s you and I doing this podcast because there is a certain way I do things. [00:15:00] And then there’s a, there’s a way that Todd does things and they’re both
Todd: fine. Yeah. Like, like I like it when, like if I’m talking to you or somebody and I’m, I’m sharing something that’s look kind of important and the person says, okay, uh, you’re, you’re really worried about your dad and you’re, you don’t know what you’re going to do, blah, blah, blah.
Todd: Is that everything? Or is there a little bit more like that feels good to me cause I feel like they, they listened and they’re giving me a chance to like, Oh, is there any other thing I want to say to this person in this moment?
Absolutely. So we’re on the same page. Like I do that also, but sometimes the way things come out.
You can tell someone is using a technique. And I hate
Todd: that.
I don’t like recognizing when people are using a technique on me. My kids don’t like it. You know, other parents I’m working with don’t like it. They want to be in discussion with someone. And I know that takes time because First you have to learn the rules, then you break the rules a little bit.
You know, first you have to learn how to do it, and sometimes you need to [00:16:00] utilize a technique. But that’s, I’m sometimes kind of, I’m not hard on Todd, well I don’t know, am I hard on you about this? Sometimes I point out a lot that I can feel Todd’s technique. And my
Todd: thing is, I would rather awkwardly use a technique than not do anything, and I know that there’s a world in between those two things, but if I’m just going to be like, if I just say, yeah, but what about this?
Todd: That’s, that’s me just kind of getting defensive, sharing my own piece. Right. Obviously, the more conversational, the more normal I can make reflecting back to you, B, that’s better. But if you’re giving me one of two options, I would rather be awkward using technique than just go straight to me thinking about what I need to share without understanding what it is that you just shared.
I agree. I agree. I just, um, I know, again, just. From, because I talk to people and work with people, people don’t always like it. That’s all. That’s all I’m saying is that especially [00:17:00] young kids or teenagers, they’re like, mom and dad, you’re using a technique. So the, but you’re right. It’s better than the alternative, which is not acknowledging at all.
That sucks. Okay. So you is like, we were just saying a reflective listening, um, dialogue, technique, whatever, just where you’re saying. Validating. Validating. Validating. Saying, right, right. Like a validation of I heard you first. So you is, I was listening to you. I heard you first. Yeah. Me is now I’m going to share.
And you’re not going to say these words, but now you’re going to share your sense of self or your boundary or your viewpoint, not in a, um, contentual, what’s the word I’m looking for? Contention? Not in a contentious way. But in the reason that, that this me is so important in between, and cause this is something Todd and I made this up by the way, I don’t know, maybe this exists somewhere else.
I’m sure if
Todd: we Google that
we’d be able to find it. Maybe we’d be able to find this, but [00:18:00] through conversation we figured this out because the reason that the me is so important, and I’m circling it on my piece of paper right now, me, me, me, is because especially for someone like Todd, who sometimes struggles with boundaries in a conversation that is personal, where he’ll jump really quickly to Well, this is what they need, so this is what I’ll do, or this is what you’re saying, so I guess I’m done.
And he sometimes forgets about himself, as do I. So you can reflect this back to me when I forget about myself. And so I’m, I think it’s really important that if we’re going to get to a we, we got to make sure we include ourself in this process. So for example, this, uh, Todd says something to me. I say back to him, um, yeah, it sounds like what you’re saying is this, that makes sense to me, um, I understand why you’re there.
And then the me, I would say where I am is I am experiencing something similar to you, but I’m also a little worried about this other thing and I’m not hearing you [00:19:00] talk about it as much. And so I want to make sure this is a big part of it as well. So I’m bringing in my need or what I’m seeing. on side by side with what you need.
And then we, then the next step is we become a we, where it’s like now that I heard you and now that you know me, let’s we do this together.
Todd: And, um, so what the reason this is on the forefront is I have a dad who’s 84 years old who is getting older and needs more support. So I’ve been having some conversations with my siblings and with Kathy and, um, with our kids, our kids.
Todd: And it’s, um, and, you know, dealing with aging parents. Uh, rattles my cage and I think it rattles most, it’s sad, it’s hard, it’s difficult. Meanwhile, we’re trying to tend to our own needs and tend to our kids needs and [00:20:00] our rabbits needs and our work needs. So I feel like,
um, And the reason Todd says that about a rabbit is our rabbit is also elderly and in the process of failing as well.
Yeah, right. So he, she’s on our mind because she is struggling too, which I know for some people it’s like, well, humans versus pets. And it’s like pets, She’s a big part of our family. Sure. So that that’s why he said that because people be like your rabbits need.
Todd: Yeah. And, uh, like it’s just when, you know, my mom passed away, what, 10 years ago?
10 years ago. Yes.
Todd: Uh, your parents passed away in the last five or six years?
In, in, within this, like my mom, two years ago, my dad, seven years ago. And
Todd: the, this part of You know, the reason it sucks is because we love these people so much, and then to see them decline, it’s like, everything that, that lives, dies, and whether we’re talking about a rabbit, or a dog, or a flower, or a person, you know, the closer they are to us, you know, parents, it, it, [00:21:00] it gets everybody on edge.
Todd: Yeah. Including me. Like, this is really hard. I did yoga this morning, and I couldn’t stop thinking about my dad. I know. The whole time. And I, I didn’t want to think about my dad. And I was thinking about my dad the entire time. And I think this tool that Kathy’s presenting, You, Me, and We, as I navigate things directly with my dad, with my siblings, with you, if I can keep in mind the you, me, we philosophy because, you know, caring for an elderly parent, there is a we, like, hey, we’re all on the same team here.
Todd: Um, so how do we do this so that we’re not really making it harder than it already is? Correct.
And that’s the thing is like, we have to take responsibility for our own emotions around something that’s really difficult. It doesn’t mean we don’t have the emotions. It means we have to take responsibility for them and we have to, you know, regulate.
We have to have our moments and our breakdowns and everything but not hurt each other in the process because, [00:22:00] you know, it’s like when families, I can’t even imagine like my family’s pretty small, your family’s pretty small. Can you imagine like if you have 10 siblings and you’re trying to get everyone on board?
I know the sisters, uh, you know, Michelle and Lauren, I know they have like kind of a big family and when their mom was, um, You know, we’ve had them on the show before and when their mom was dying, she had dementia like my mom did and they, they actually said in the end it was good because there was so much help, they needed everybody, but I just think about with all the things you and I deal with when it was my parents or with your dad now, can you imagine like, You know, onboarding everybody with all this information.
It’s very hard. Getting everybody
Todd: on the same
page. On the
Todd: same page. It’s just because like, Hey, this is what I think is in my dad’s best interest for the next 12 months. It doesn’t mean I’m right. Correct. I’m making my best guess and you’re making your best guess and my sister and brothers are making their best guesses and to, but we have to make a unified decision together and the decision making.[00:23:00]
Todd: Um, for lack of a better term, the decision making rights are very ambiguous when it comes like this. It’s not like my dad’s like, okay, when I get to be 84 and I’m struggling, this is how I want it to go. Like this doesn’t happen.
Most decision making is, at this stage. Most things, when we’re talking about end of life, most decision making is, um, is because of crisis.
So decision making is, is, you, you hope that someone has done due diligence when it comes to things like a trust or a will or discussion about their, their desires or wants or, you know. You know, all of that has been done ahead of time, and that’s something that a lot of people don’t have the luxury of that.
Some people pass and none of that’s done, right? But you hope that there has been a little bit of decision making, but then end of life care, um, or aging, elderly care, is a lot is born of crisis. So you do something until you can’t do it anymore. And that means that there is a lot of surprise and there is a lot [00:24:00] of, um, high emotions and stress,
Todd: high stress, exhaustion,
uncertainty.
Um, you know, it’s funny, it’s hard to even think about anymore, but there, you know, I’ll just, but my dad, when he, he was sick for so long, That like Todd said, you know, he was in yoga today thinking about his dad. I, the amount of brain space my dad took up for almost two decades and not brain space, but concern, uncertainty, I’m unsure what the next day like worry, you know, like I, it goes back so far that I didn’t think he would, I was hoping he’d make it to our wedding.
Then I was hoping he would meet my first daughter. I was hoping he’d meet, you know, like, I never knew if he would be around. And so the amount of brain space that he took up, I think a lot of the grief that I experienced with him, it was very different than with my mom, both heartbreaking, but my dad’s was so ongoing that it was so much, and, and it’s just interesting to [00:25:00] hear you say that, like, I, when you said you were thinking about him all during yoga, I’m like, I really, I didn’t want to be like, Oh, I can relate.
But I really understand, like you, you’re not, you’re trying to figure something out that you can’t figure out. I actually, um, uh, just little, you know, connecting it to my book, I, there was someone writing something about my book where they were trying to come up with something about how to describe my book.
Um, and somebody wrote, um, it’s this book is about how to, um, navigate teen lives and find certainty. And I was like, absolutely not. That is not what I write about at all. What Todd and I talk about when it comes to elderly care or teenagers or whatever is navigating uncertainty. There is no certainty. We don’t know what’s going to happen with your dad.
We don’t know how this is going to unfold. What we have to be able to do is regulate ourselves in the process and do put our best foot forward. Every time something presents itself. It doesn’t, it [00:26:00] doesn’t do us any good to be like we should have done this, we should have done that. Because we’re doing the best we can in the moment.
Um, and, and it’s not always pretty. Like one of my girlfriends right now, I’m sending her good vibes, my friend Amy, her mom is in hospice right now. And she’s in this middle place right now where it’s a weird place of where you’re like, it’s weird to wish for someone to pass when they’re this close because you want them here.
But they’re also. It’s, you know, quality of life. And she’s in that place and you are, um, I was just telling her through text, I’m like, it’s really a weird time. And your dad’s not there. Your dad is like an elderly here right now. He’s
Todd: just struggling a bit.
But you don’t, there’s no way to do it right. It’s, it’s mess, it’s inherently messy.
And what we, our goal is to tolerate that, not to do it all perfect. Right.
Todd: Does that make sense? Totally. Good. Um, so slight pivot. Okay. We didn’t do we, by the way. [00:27:00] Oh, uh, yeah, you did. Did we? You did.
What did I say? I don’t remember.
Todd: Um, I don’t remember exactly what the words were, but Do you want me to finish?
Todd: Yeah, go ahead.
And then you, and then you move to the next thing. So we talked about you is validating and listening to the other person first. The me is here’s my perspective on it and the we is now let’s come together and do this together.
Todd: We’re on the same team. We’re
on the same team. If we, again, we may have little arguments here and there or disagreements or discussions, that’s part of the process.
Again, that’s healthy, what we call healthy conflict is let’s figure out the best way. But the goal is to have not a lot of that because our energy needs to go toward this other person and having a lot of infighting or wanting to win or overwhelm is, um, it takes energy from everybody when they’re trying to do something for this person.
So, and, and that’s just about elderly care when it comes to like relationship, like if Todd and I, if this had nothing to do with his dad and it was just [00:28:00] between Todd and I, it’d be the same thing. I would say something to him or he would say something to me. I would validate what he said. I would bring my perspective and then I’d say, how are we going to do this together?
Because the first, yeah. Um, The biggest problem in a relationship, one of the huge identifiers that things are going to go south is if you think it’s me against you.
Todd: Yeah. Um, I’m thinking of Gaddis book, um, Getting to Zero, and he talks about the boats and there’s times when I’m rowing my boat in one direction, you’re rowing your boat in the other direction.
Todd: Like we’re not getting anywhere. We have to realize, can we get in the same boat and row in the exact same direction as best we can in this, whatever this issue is that we’re, we’re doing. And think about how much time we spend. Rowing our own boats, defending our own positions.
Well, and not only rowing our own boats, but trying to row ours faster than the other person and trying to make our boat more beautiful and trying to like make our boat the right boat, you know, like there’s so much energy behind I’m right.
And [00:29:00] that is by definition, that is an example of insecurity, which is I need the external validation that I’m doing this right. Versus a we. Which is we’re in the same boat. Let’s decorate this boat together. You do one side. I’ll do the other side. When you’re tired, I’ll take over. When I’m tired, you’ll take over.
Let’s do this as a team. And it’s not always just two people. It’s four people, five people. Let’s work to help each other. And that way, we’re all going toward the same place and our energy is being utilized equally. Effectively and efficiently. And
Todd: I feel like sometimes we don’t even know where we’re rowing.
Todd: That’s uncertainty. Like for my dad, like it’d be great, not that I’m going to sit down and write a vision statement for the last, you know, the last five years of my dad’s life or something like that. But let’s make, let’s connect with, you know, I’ll just make something up. I want to connect with him in an authentic way.
Todd: I want him to be as comfortable as possible. I want him to get as much out of life as he possibly can. Um, [00:30:00] if we can kind of like have that as our Norse star. Me and you and my siblings and my daughters like let’s figure out how to get there. Mm hmm But that’s my vision and I would think that everybody else’s vision would be something similar to that
Well, it is and I think there is as you and I always discuss the difference between the vision and the plan and the reality
Todd: Yeah,
and and you know You know with your dad It’s not always, you know, we could have a plan.
He doesn’t follow the plan. Um, and so that’s, that’s the, that’s why we want to talk about, it’s going to be messy for everyone. Even if everyone’s on the same page all the time, there’s still the grief. There’s still the, you know, the uncertainty of what comes next there. It’s just in, Inherently difficult.
And I think what we fight against a lot is it shouldn’t be this hard, or why is this difficult, or I’m uncomfortable, and I’m like, yes. This
Todd: is hard.
That is what it is, so now you need to figure out [00:31:00] how to manage that uncertainty, how to get some sleep, how to drink your water, how to go for a walk, how to support someone else, how to, like one of my favorite things to do is when I’m really struggling is check in with other people.
And that’s Just me. I’m not saying you have to do that. But there’s something that I feel like humanizes like, Oh, somebody else is going through something as well. And I am going to, you know, I feel like I, I find this, this balance when I understand that we’re all dealing with something and I feel more in a norm.
Um, and I feel like I can use my, I get energized by that. So before Todd moves, just for clarity, you. You know, me and then we, and then we do that over and over and over again. Todd and I may do you, me, and we 50 times in a day, and it’s not always that contrived where it’s like we’re, you know, it doesn’t look like we’re going through a dynamic, but And I do this with my girls.
They call me, they’re upset about something, I’m, I’m like, it sounds like you’re [00:32:00] really upset about this thing. This is really bothersome, and I get that. And then I may say, you know what, right now I have a call, so I’m gonna, I have to take that first. Because I really want to get into this with you, and I’m gonna call you back in 30 minutes, and then we will figure this out together.
You see, like, so I’m not gonna, like, give up. You know, I’m going to let them know I have things to do. Yeah, you don’t want to
Todd: give yourself up. Correct.
Yeah. Um, and I’m not doing that. I’m doing that because it’s real. If I can talk to them, I stay on the phone, but if I do have to go, you know, I can bring myself into the equation because, let me say this last thing, if you do not bring yourself into the equation, if you’re just doing you and we, or just you, you, you, you, you will get resentful.
Yeah. You will not have boundaries. You will not, you will be overpowered by somebody else’s needs. And so that me, I like, I circled it three times, Todd. Me. Yeah. Oh, look at all the hearts. I didn’t even realize I was drawing hearts. So you, that weird, um, you, me, and we, so anyway, that’s
Todd: That’s it. So, [00:33:00] pivoting is staying in the same topic.
Todd: Okay. I did a little research. Okay. I said, what are the top 10 common obstacles families face when dealing with aging parents?
Okay. I could probably guess.
Todd: And I’m sure you can. Okay. You want to go ahead and, well, let me just run through it.
I want to, I want to guess. Go ahead. I’d like it to be a game. Go ahead, sweetie.
Okay. Because I’m not going to get them all.
Todd: Sure.
Um, the obstacles are money. Uh, yep, that’s number three. Okay, um, the obstacles are sadness or grief or the emotional volatility. Emotional stress, that’s five. Okay, um, communication. That is number one. Yeah, communication is, and that’s what Todd and I are talking about here.
Um, uh, I would talk about support. Like, um, you know, having caregivers, people to help? Uh, that’s not on there, but I think it
Todd: goes with, with what we’re talking about. Okay. So you do the rest of them. Um. So just start. You said communication challenges. That’s number one. Number two is role reversal. Oh, huge, huge.
Todd: You become the parent. Not so much in my relationship with my dad, so. But
I, I did. [00:34:00] My parents were parents and then it got flipped.
Todd: Yeah. Right, so role reversals, number two. Financial strain, you said that, that’s number three. Number four is health care decisions. So hard. Uh, five is emotional stress, you said that.
Todd: Cognitive decline. Yeah,
yeah.
Todd: Uh, living arrangements. Huge, that’s where we are right now. We’re right now with my dad. Uh, sibling disagreements. Yes. Uh, legal and ethical consideration. So that’s the will and all that stuff. And we buttoned that up with my dad a while ago. So that’s good. So we can check that one up and then just time constraints.
Todd: Like we’re dealing with a lot of different, you know, other stuff in our lives. And then all of a sudden this big, huge time consumer drops in front of us. And
I had to cancel on a birthday party today and we had to give up two meetings. And, and when I’m saying that, that’s not like, Oh, feel sorry for us.
It’s the reality. It’s like, that’s the other part is like, there were, you know, when you’re Supporting somebody, you know, same with children, right? [00:35:00] Someone who’s elderly, you, it’s hard to keep a regular pattern of life. Things get messed up and we may say, oh, you know, and, and it’s very, if you’re in a work space, if you like, are someone who goes to work at a certain time and comes home and has a boss, that can be hard for them to understand.
Um, these are things that that’s a blessing we have is that it sucks to cancel things, but at least we are in charge of that.
Todd: Well, and I want to jump to the third one, financial strain. The problem is, you know, to put my dad in an assisted living facility, I don’t know what it costs, but when I asked my friend Kevin what he did, what it costs when he put his mom in a place, it was 6, 000 a month.
Todd: And if you do that math, six times 12 is 72k a year. And I don’t know if my dad’s going to live for a year or 15 years, but he has a limited supply of money and we’re not quite sure how do we make decisions with this huge variable that we don’t know how long we’re going to need to do this thing for.
I think you’re preaching [00:36:00] the choir.
I think that. Every conversation we have with people who, and by the way, my parents care was much more than that, much more than 6, 000 because my dad had so many health needs and my mom had dementia, so it’s like you have this extra care that you have to do. And then that’s just the established care.
That’s not like there’s so many other things.
Todd: Well, and I also think that there’s this, and I might end up being delusional when I am, you know, older. Um, I think my dad still thinks he’s like 68 years old. For sure. And I think a lot of older people think that they’re, I don’t feel 52. How old am I? 52? Yeah.
Todd: I still feel like I’m a 25 year old idiot. Now, of course my life has evolved in a way where I have a lot of responsibilities, but I don’t feel 52. And I’m guessing I won’t feel 84 when I’m 84 years old. And I’ll think that my capacity is different than it actually is. Correct. And it’s super tricky to try to convince a loved one.
Todd: Actually, dad, you do need to use the walker. I’m like, [00:37:00] how come you’re not using the walker? He’s like, I forgot about it. I’m like, well, quit forgetting about it. Use it. Meanwhile, he’s hanging clothes off of it and not using it. Um, you know, it’s just stuff like that. It’s really,
well, and this is really, this is really important is talking about dignity.
Okay. Which is really important to me as far as when caregiving with my children and also with my parents, it was a really big thing is we don’t, as kids, we don’t just come in and start Bossing our parents around and saying, you know, this is what you’re going to do and now you’re going to do this, like, it doesn’t, the role reversal doesn’t become where then we, we get to overpower them.
I, I don’t think that is great. Um, my, you know, My mom with dementia was different because we definitely did have to, anyone who’s had a parent with dementia or someone, you kind of understand what I mean, but like you do have to guide them accordingly and live through their story, but also guide them in a way that’s [00:38:00] safe for them.
That’s a whole different thing. But with my dad who didn’t lose any of his cognitive capacity and was just physically enabled or disabled. It’s more of a discussion. It’s communication and expectation and what can we do and honoring where he is, which is where, what you’re having to do with your dad, which is.
You know, and I understand why kids are like, oh, but we have to take over because this has to work this way. But we’re talking about a human being just like we are with our children, you know, like we don’t get to force our children to do things either. And again, this is why we started by saying change is, is born out of crisis because there are points with my dad where there was a crisis and then we did have to do something that was a little more, Significant.
Same with your dad. Yeah. There, he doesn’t want to use that walker, but the next time he falls, he’s going to need that walker and that changes the whole dynamic with him. So I, I dislike that we wait around for crisis, [00:39:00] but how that’s, how else do you do this in a way? You know, I’d like to button it up and make it all clean and clear, but I just don’t think that’s how humans work.
Todd: I don’t think so either. And there’s really no, I mean, there’s probably books out there right now, you know, Caring for Elderly Parents for Dummies book, it probably exists. So there’s probably a rule book out there. But even if I read 10 of those rule books, every situation, every family is different. So you can empower yourself with some information.
Todd: And at the same time, you just don’t. Just don’t know.
Well, and it’s no different than the parenting books. Yeah. The parenting books also say, do this, do that, put them to bed at this time. It doesn’t work that way. It, to your point, you can get some tips and you may, it may open your eyes to something you didn’t recognize before.
Like you may get, you know, something that is helpful. It’s not a waste of time. I write parenting books, so obviously I want to support the cause. But there’s no way that it gets you out of feeling what you have to [00:40:00] feel. Right. Which is oftentimes discomfort, uncertainty about where things are going, dealing with unpredictability, handling your emotional regulation.
You don’t get out of that. And, and I really do believe. that is challenging as this process can be, it is why we’re here. Like, I know, depending on where people live and everything, they can’t always be as hands on as others. But this is why we’re with people. To help people transition into new stages of life.
Right. Or to, for those who are in hospice, to transition out of life. And, you know, this is why we’re here. We do this for people. And sometimes, and again, believe me. You know, Todd and I have been doing this for a long time. It gets old, um, where you feel like, like I said, after my mom died, I’m like, I just want to think about being my age for a while because I’ve been thinking about being an old person for so long because my, my parents have been not doing well and your mom died and [00:41:00] it just, I was like, mortality is too much for me right now.
And at the same time, it is too much sometimes, but it, I don’t, I’m not resentful of doing it because that’s what we do.
Todd: Yeah, it goes in waves. You know, uh, my stepfather passed away. She’s, Jaycee’s 21, 21 years old. You know. He was too young, by the way. I’m waiting for people to be like, oh yeah, I had a wonderful experience with the transition of my parent after, you know, as they aged and died.
Todd: Like it’s almost always messy. Always. Um, you know. I
mean, our experiences have been. I, we know that, you know, you always tell the Jonathan Brandmeier story. Anybody who’s from Chicago may know who Brandmeier is, but that his dad died in his chair.
Todd: Watching TV. Yeah. And was like fine and then. Wasn’t. And then.
Todd: Took a nap and died. Um, But that’s not very typical. That’s not very typical. And, uh, it’s just not easy. And I’m feeling it in my body. I feel stressed and I know, you know, [00:42:00] buckle up.
Buckle up and buckle up. And also when you are relaxing and having those moments, take them. It is why, you know, I was, you know, talking to you about grief therapy and I needed to have a therapist while I was going through these things because she would remind me Okay, when you’re home, be home.
Do the home thing. Don’t feel, because I would sometimes go sit with my mom for two hours, three hours. She’s like, why are you doing it for so long? Like maybe cut, you know what I mean? She’s like, you’ve got to take some time. So you’re ready to come back the next day. You’ve got to be with your kids or your rabbit or your husband.
are able to do this. Like, you have to take care of yourself in the process. And again, it’s, it’s so similar to parenting in the self care world. And we can’t do it for our parents. Our parents have to walk this road. We support them in walking the road. Your dad is the one going through this. Yeah, right.
You’re just, helping him.
Todd: Yeah.
So you got to keep that separation rather than [00:43:00] this is my dad going through this. It’s me. It’s me. It’s not about you. It’s him. And you know, that’s what I would hope is my kids. I would be devastated if my kids lives were completely upended and they had nothing for themselves and they were only taking care of me.
I would be like that. And maybe there’ll be moments of that for whatever crisis situation, but. I know my parents wanted to make sure that we had a balance and I know your dad does too.
Todd: Yeah, no doubt. Uh, any parting thoughts before we close shop?
Um, no, I don’t think so. Oh, yeah, one thing, you know, you were just saying how Richie, your stepfather, died and he was 59 and I remember Todd and I were young and so we definitely, knew it.
He was kind of young, but I didn’t realize how young he was.
Todd: Older we get, the younger he was.
And Todd and I are right now, we just started the documentary on HBO about the Sopranos. It’s called Wise Guy and it’s about David Chase and the Sopranos. And it’s kind of a good, you know, we only got about 40 minutes into it last night, but it’s kind of gives you a good idea of why people were [00:44:00] cast and why David Chase wrote the, you know, the Sopranos.
But Gandolfini died at 51, Todd. That’s crazy. 51. I mean, he hadn’t even begun. He had just started. And it just, you know, this whole mortality thing, you know, it is a reminder, as stressful as it can feel and uncomfortable and you know, maybe we’ll do another show about death. We’ve done a few of them before.
Um, but. It, to me, it’s a very empowering reminder to live your life and to do things that are fun and enjoyable and to appreciate moments and to not get caught up in stupid, stupid shit. Sorry. I know I’m not supposed to swear. Rule breaker. But do not get caught up in things like that, you guys. You have this limited time and life is difficult and you can’t get away from that.
But when you’re having a joyful moment. Have it. If you’re spacing out while drinking coffee, [00:45:00] enjoy it. If you are laughing at something stupid or you love The Bachelorette or you love The Secrets of Mormon Wives or you love, um, you know, driving around in your car and listening to music, do it. Because this is it.
You know what I mean? Like this is, we’re having our experience right now. This is our time. And it’s a reminder. This is not about, so find the right career and blah blah blah. I’m not talking about those kind of strategies. I’m just talking about every, you know, moments. Enjoy it. Like right now, I’m having a good time doing this podcast with you.
Oh yeah? So yeah, somebody, people ask us all the time. Is this I Want a New Drug?
Todd: Hold on, this is the video. It starts out with this. Huey had good video.
Oh, if this is it.
Todd: He’s walking on the beach in his red shirt. Oh, I remember this video. Sure.
Todd: I’ve been falling out of [00:46:00] my mind. I’ve heard you say that I’m not alone. Now you’re confessing. But I’m still guessing. I’ve been your fool for
so long. I love this song. Fits perfectly.
Todd: I know, sweetie, but you just said it. This is it.
I know, but it’s just such about such a different topic.
Todd: Oh, what’s it about?
That’s what this song is about. If they’re together, he’s saying if we’re done, please let me know if we’re breaking up. It’s about love.
Todd: It’s so funny. You just said, you should have said, if this is it, please let me know. Cause that’s the line, right? If this is it,
please let me know. Yeah,
Todd: I did. I actually said the line.
Todd: Um, okay. Uh, in
closing. Well, I was, I was finishing on something when you were in the song that I was saying that people always say, how long are you going to do this podcast? They’re always like, you know, we’ve been doing it 14 years, when are you guys gonna be done with the podcast? And I have, [00:47:00] that is a very uncertain thing because I have no plans to be done with this podcast.
Yeah. Because we do it, I don’t, I don’t. We just do it, meaning like it’s not work, it’s like we just come down and do a podcast and we love it that lots of people listen, hello, thank you, but we’re not, it’s not contingent on whether or not, when Todd and I started this, no one was giving us anything. No.
Were they? Did we have a? Was Jeremy part of it at the beginning? Episode one. Jeremy Krebs. So Jeremy has been with us for 14 years. That’s
Todd: insane. And if you live in Chicago and you need something done in your house, painting, remodeling, inside, outside, whatever, give him a call 6309 5618 100. Abedco. net. And then, um, we’re going to do Zen Talk this Friday, either with or without John Duffy.
Todd: Join us. And then we might have an announcement next Tuesday. Yes. So stay tuned for that. Okay. Keep trying.
[00:48:00]
