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Todd: Here we go, my name’s Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 775. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s well being is a parent’s. Self understanding.
Todd: I’m going to give our audience a clue on how dedicated my wife is to this podcast because today is a special birthday, sweetie. Oh, yes. It’s the birthday episode.
Then to have a world party on the day the kids take the beach. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you.
Cathy: There’s
Todd: thousands of Zen Parenting [00:01:00] listeners singing along to you right now. Do
Cathy: you feel that? I do. I love it. I love my birthday. And I love who’s ever listening. I appreciate it. How do you
Todd: feel about being 53?
Cathy: I feel really good about it. And it’s not, there’s not a lot. of change in 53. Um, and I mean that because the number like, it’s like, you know, 50s bag or 55, 53 is like right there. And also. I’m very happy because last year at this time, I had a daughter who was leaving for Italy for four months and a daughter who was going to college and I was very grief stricken.
Cathy: Um, and this summer I have a daughter going back to college and another daughter going back to college and then a daughter going into her junior year. So there’s no like,
Todd: Big transition. Big,
Cathy: huge transition, which I like the most. Little breaks, um, because for the next couple of years we don’t have that because then someone’s graduating and another one’s graduating.
Cathy: So I’m just appreciating kind of a calm. I [00:02:00] also wrote a book this summer and turned it in a couple weeks ago so that feels really good. I did something significant this year that, you know, it has, it, I did a lot of things. It’s not the only thing, but I felt like that was kind of a big milestone. And then I just, um, I just feel good.
Cathy: It’s a little rainy on my birthday here in Chicago. But that’s okay.
Todd: We’re going to make
Cathy: it awesome anyways. That’s right. And because, you know, rain brings flowers. That’s right. And you know who likes rain? The birds. They do. And my flowers. Yes. Why do, why do the birds like rain, Todd?
Todd: Uh, because then the worms come out.
Cathy: Correct. You have to
Todd: go eat the worms.
Cathy: They’re hungry. So thank you for that, everybody.
Todd: Um, one other person wants to say happy birthday.
Cathy: Oh, good. Happy
Todd: Birthday! That’s frusty. That is frusty isn’t it? Um, and then you got a cameo. You want to quickly say what the cameo was? Yes! What is a cameo?
Cathy: A [00:03:00] cameo is uh, like a service.
Cathy: I don’t know how to explain it. Explain it. It’s like a
Todd: Somebody pays money to somebody for giving you a happy birthday message.
Cathy: Yeah. It’s, it’s like you can, and there’s a lot of like kind of famous people, maybe more like B list or people that are like YouTubers or Instagrammers or whatever it may be, um, who are willing to send a birthday message to somebody.
Cathy: You basically send an email and say, send a birthday message to this person. So my friend Jess got me a cameo from Uh, Steve, who has all the dogs, and he lives, I, he used to live in New York, I think he moved to Ohio, but he is a big advocate for senior dogs, and he rescues them, and he does that because he had a dog named Wolfgang that was, um, run, that was hit by a car and died, and it was really devastating to him.
Cathy: So he, Decided to, um, rescue a senior dog and then made that his mission and now he has, [00:04:00] like, nine and every time one passes, he goes and gets another dog and he also has a, uh, pig. Potbelly. Potbelly pig. I was gonna say bikinis is his name. A potbelly pig and he had a turkey and a chicken and he used to have a guinea pig.
Cathy: He just has a lot of animals in his house. And I don’t know how he does it because we have one rabbit and that necessitates time.
Todd: Yeah. Takes a lot of effort to raise a one three legged rabbit. I can imagine what it’s like for nine or 10 animals.
Cathy: Right? I mean, and the hair clean. And it’s not like he lives on a farm or anything.
Cathy: Doesn’t he live in New York? Well, he used to. And like I said, I think he moved to Ohio and he got a really big house. I don’t know what he, but anyway, so I got a cameo from him. My friend just got me that. And I had a lot of lovely birthday wishes from my family. We had a get together on Friday and lots of texts today.
Cathy: So birthdays are fun. I think anybody who. When it’s your birthday, I know some of us get freaked out about age or we’re like, Oh, let’s not make a big deal. But you know what? If you’re not going to celebrate yourself, who, why is that someone [00:05:00] else’s job? Right? Like, I feel like you have to, I’ve always had my own birthday parties.
Cathy: I mean, people have helped me, but like, since I was young, I’m like, it’s my birthday, so let’s do something. Right?
Todd: That’s right. I love how much you love your birthday. You
Cathy: came to my birthday party when I was 25. We were not dating, but you showed up. Did I? Where did, where was it at? I was at, uh, Laura’s. Do you remember?
Todd: Lara’s apartment?
Cathy: Yeah. You and Jim Herbick showed up. Oh nice. On my birthday. Oh, look at me. I know. Sweet, I just
Todd: want to celebrate with you.
Cathy: I know, but then you left and you said you were going to meet me later and you
Todd: didn’t.
Cathy: Didn’t you like
Todd: fall down the stairs that night?
Cathy: Jesus. I wore, that sounds awful, I wore like really high heels, I don’t know, it was like a time of platform shoes, I don’t know.
Cathy: But then I really fell hard down some cement stairs, they were fully cement. And then we recreated it with pictures. Oh, that’s awesome. Of me like rolling down the stairs. So what are
Todd: we talking about today, my darling? Well.
Cathy: Interestingly enough, since it’s my birthday, we’re going to talk about life trajectories.
Cathy: Okay. And we’re going to kind of, we’re going to [00:06:00] incorporate a bunch of things because we haven’t really thought through exactly the trajectory of this podcast. Yeah. Um, but I was, you know, my oldest daughter is home for a few weeks cause she has some time in between her apartments. One of her apartments in Michigan is, you know, the lease is, is over and then her next one starts in two weeks.
Cathy: So she has this gap so she can be home with us, which is nice. But we took a walk the other day. And we were talking about like her next steps because she’s going to be a senior in college. And, you know, we were just, there’s just so much pressure on these kids when they’re in middle school, high school, college about what to do next and what’s the right thing to do.
Cathy: They’re depending on the family you’re in. There’s a belief system about what you should do and what makes you successful. And I tend to call, I’m not going to swear because we don’t put the E next to our podcast for explicit, but I’m going to call bullcrap on a lot of what we tell our kids about what success is.
Cathy: I think if Our kids are, now there’s some basic things, like I do think it’s helpful to go to school. [00:07:00] I don’t think everyone should go to school. I think some people can work with their hands and they can go into a trade and there’s things that they really excel at where college isn’t necessary. But I think it’s a, it’s a good choice as far as giving us more opportunity and meeting people and expanding your, you know, viewpoint on the world.
Cathy: So I really like the idea of college. Um, but then it’s like the choices after that point, um, There’s so many ways to go, and I feel like you, if you follow what feels right for you. In the moment or what’s working or an opportunity that you have, your trajectory is always headed up because you are enjoying the process of learning.
Cathy: If that means coming home and waitressing for a year and making a lot of money and making a big plan to go on a trip to Europe, if it’s that you take a job right out of school cause you’re excited about it and then you, End up going, you know, that route. Um, or if it’s that you have an internship and that you’re willing to do some, you know, part [00:08:00] time work over here and take the internship because you want that experience, but it’s all about what feels right to you.
Cathy: Like what’s exciting. And for me, like when I got out of college, what was necessary for me was being with the people that I loved, which meant I moved to Chicago to live with my friends. And, and that probably doesn’t make sense to a lot of parents nowadays. Yeah, from a
Todd: career standpoint, that was like, well, before you moved to Chicago, you got to have a job and you got, and you did not do that.
Todd: Not at all. And just to kind of bring it. So our daughter who’s 21, who is going to be a senior, uh, there’s a part of her that’s stressing out because she sees that she has this, There’s a belief system being pushed upon her that she has to know what she’s gonna do in nine months, which is when she graduates college.
Todd: And you and I keep sharing stories like well, when I was graduating college, I didn’t have a freaking clue. I knew I graduated with a degree in business, and that’s [00:09:00] about all I knew. I was gonna go on a bike ride with my friend Chris Peek, who decided to cancel on me. Thanks a lot Chris Peek. He doesn’t listen to this podcast, but if he does, I’m He
Cathy: broke your heart.
Todd: Feel bad.
Cathy: You’ve called me and you were very sad.
Todd: Yes. Um, and you didn’t have much of a clue what you were doing. And I think this day and age 2024 versus 1993 or 1994, I think kids nowadays have less flexibility. I think there’s more expectations put upon them. It was normal. Like most of my friends didn’t really know exactly what they’re like.
Todd: Charlie was going to be an eye doctor, I think, and this guy was going to do this. But most of us are like, I guess my next move is to go find a job.
Cathy: Well, and I think all of those things have value. Like, we’re not promoting go out in the world, not know what you’re doing and just wing it. But for some, that is what they need to do.
Cathy: For some, they know exactly what they’re going to do. They’re going to go to med school. They’re going to go to grad school. They’re like, I know my trajectory. Some already have a job lined up. You know, [00:10:00] there isn’t a right and wrong. What I always want to focus on though is the idea that there’s one path to success.
Cathy: And I mean this like for if you have kids who are in high school right now and you’re like they have to take all these AP classes and the only way they’re going to get into the college of their dreams or have the right internship if they do this and that. It’s not true. I mean, If you think your kid wants to go to an Ivy and so they’re trying to do things or get internships or volunteer hours to make sure that happens, I understand if that’s their goal or if they’re like, I really want to go to this school and I know I have to have these grades or this class.
Cathy: I understand that does work for people, but I think that our belief system, we don’t even consider It doesn’t work for everyone. Is this necessary?
Todd: Well, and there’s so many different variables to it. It’s like some kids got loans throughout their entire college career and they have to start paying them off, I think six months after graduation or something like that.
Todd: Get
Cathy: a deferment for a while. So
Todd: there’s, um, I just, I know [00:11:00] that there’s a lot of different variables in this equation. So I’m not trying to oversimplify where I, or I think Kathy and I are coming from is that my daughter has the rest of her life to be in the rat race. I’ll call it. The rat race is paychecks and responsibilities and knowing what you think you’re going to do for the rest of your life.
Todd: And I’m like, this is this kind of sacred moment that if you have the flexibility to kind of figure out what you want to do as a mom. As opposed to, well, I have to go do this because I have this bill that I have to pay.
Cathy: And this is what all the people around me are telling me to do.
Todd: That’s just a tough recipe for It’s not my invitation to my daughters, like figure out what you want to do.
Todd: And maybe it’s go find a job in your career, or maybe it’s to go wait tables, or maybe it’s to go travel for a certain amount of time. Like, I’m just feel like that. I just want to like loosen the grip on, on this generation who was born in the early [00:12:00] two thousands. And think that they have to go in a certain direction.
Cathy: And also recognizing, like, because I know a lot of people have seen this show, they’ll be like, well, my kid is lazy and if I’m not on them all the time, they won’t do things. But have you had opportunities where you’re not on them and they have made choices for themselves and maybe you either didn’t support it or you, like, I want, I want us to know, I’m going to go down to the deepest sense of ourselves.
Cathy: I’ve worked with people a really long time and teens and young people. Everybody has this inner drive. They have things they want to do. They have things they’re interested in. They have an inner trajectory that is calling to them. The big but is a lot of times as parents we’re squashing that because we’re telling them you need to do this next.
Cathy: You need to take this class. You need to have this major. You need to be in this club. You need to be friends with these people. And they then can’t hear. Or go with that inner trajectory anymore. They then become [00:13:00] completely connected to what the outside world is telling them to do. And so then everything they do becomes, this is the right thing.
Cathy: This is what my parents want me to do. This is where I’m going to get the most money. This is the, and they’re what we miss in that process. Number one is quieting the inner trajectory of our children where they actually have. These desires and these things they want to do. And within that, it shifts and changes.
Cathy: And I want to get into that commercial that we love, Todd. Yeah,
Todd: I got it queued up. You just let me know.
Cathy: I think we have this belief system that we like, have a kid and we get them into soccer at four and then they’re going to be excellent at soccer and then they’re going to go to college and play soccer.
Cathy: And then they’re going to be like, we have this belief that this trajectory is linear and it’s not. And I, you know, I’ve said this on the show before, but it’s one of my favorite things that my dad ever said to me. Yeah. Is that he’s like, when you get older, you will look back on your life and you will see how all the pieces fit together.
Cathy: You will have a such a better understanding of why you are where you are and why you are who you are is because of all these things that came [00:14:00] together. And some of them were amazing. Like the fun things, you know, the choices I made for myself that I was so excited. Some of it was my hugest disappointments.
Cathy: Like I just told my daughter yesterday, um, that, you know, when I decided to go be a therapist, when I was 25, 26 years old, It was because I had totally had my heart broken. I could not stand my job anymore. My, all of my roommates moved out because they were in relationships and I was living by myself. I was miserable.
Cathy: And I was like, you know what? As long as I’m this low, screw it. I’m going to go back to school and do what I’ve always wanted to do. And I’m going to become a therapist.
Todd: Well, and the universe perfectly gave you an opportunity to do that. Not by you succeeding at things, but by you struggling
Cathy: through life.
Cathy: Correct. Struggling in a moment where I’m like, where do I go? It wasn’t, I’ve ruined everything. I should have, you know, everything should be different or I deserve success because of A, B, or C. It was, what am I going to do with this moment? And that’s all I want my children to understand is that there [00:15:00] isn’t one right way.
Cathy: And, and while I do believe the universe is, the universe rises up to meet you in many ways, and you will find teachers and people to help you. I also believe that things happen. Like it doesn’t, there, it’s a, it’s a paradox, you know, things happen and you have to deal with it. You have to learn how to adapt and you have to learn how to rise and you, and it doesn’t mean you rise the same day or that you don’t go through grief.
Cathy: You don’t jump over it, but things come out of it. And then when you look back on it, you’re like, wow, that piece came with that piece came with that piece. Like, one of my other favorite stories is that your mom. When I had JC gave me a book called The New Mom’s Companion, and it was so vital to me because I read it and it wasn’t about the baby, it was about taking care of myself, and I became a completely different mother because of the book, so one day I just wrote to the author.
Cathy: And said, this book changed me and I just want you to [00:16:00] know how helpful it is. And she said, Oh, I live 30 minutes away from you. Do you want to have coffee? And then we went and had coffee and then we created a writing group together. And now I’m a writer. I couldn’t have planned that. You could not have designed it.
Cathy: No. What I was doing was like going through life and saying, this feels good. This feels right. This doesn’t feel right. I’m going to move this way. And I feel like when we’re talking about trajectories with our kids, there is a trust. Process. And so Todd and I were watching the Olympics as I hope many of you were.
Cathy: And we were very excited to see this commercial that Hyundai put out. Um, and it’s basically just to like, set it up a little bit because I’m not quite sure if it’ll come across the same way. I’m
Todd: going to share it as we’re viewing it and I want you or me to announce, not announce, but like kind of say what’s happening.
Todd: Okay. Let’s do this.
Cathy: Oh, you’re going to even share the screen. How was practice? Good.
Todd: You okay, man? I [00:17:00]
Cathy: don’t know.
Todd: So, it’s parents driving their kid to or from an activity.
Cathy: And the first activity was swimming, and the second activity is wrestling.
Todd: You know,
you don’t have to keep doing this.
You know, maybe it’s time to take a break. Like a break break from gymnastics? Straight up! Come on, focus. You serious? Yeah. Switch things up. Not because it’s hard. Or because you don’t like getting up at five in the morning. I can tell you’re doing it for that look on my face. You gotta go find what you love.
I want you to do what makes you happy.
Cathy: I’m [00:18:00] sorry that you guys can’t keep up with us.
Todd: I’ll include it in the show notes, the link to the YouTube thing, but nice job Hyundai. Well, way to kind of illustrate what you and I have been talking about for 14 years.
Cathy: For 14 years. So the two comments on the screen are number one, to do what you love. And to find joy in the journey and also that these parents are picking up on the fact that their kids are doing things for them.
Cathy: And they’re not doing things because, and this is where parents get really stuck. I, I think that when our kids were younger, when we were podcasting years ago, One of the biggest questions, because we’ve been, Todd and I have been saying this since the very beginning. If your kids are ready to shift, you allow that process of their trajectory to change.
Cathy: Maybe they’re not going to do soccer anymore, but they’re going to do something different. And you are supportive of that process. And it’s not about, are you winning awards in this new thing? It’s about how do you feel? Do you feel like you’re in your element? Do you feel like you know yourself? Do you feel like you’re learning?
Cathy: It’s good for our kids [00:19:00] to start over. They don’t, not everything again is linear. But parents really get. and then am I teaching my kid to quit? I think the whole idea of grit, Angela Duckworth’s, um, you know, research around grit kind of messed us up. And I don’t think she meant to do that. I think that what she was talking about with grit was people who want to do something.
Cathy: If they stick to it, and keep focusing on what they want, they can move forward, right?
Todd: I think people weaponized Grit and Angela Duckworth’s research and gave the shadowy parts of us parents an excuse to get, to will upon what we think is best for our kids at the, at their own expense.
Cathy: Right, because we want to force grit on our kids versus our kids find inner grit for things they’re interested in.
Cathy: You know, like for example, this is not kids, this is Todd and I, but I will sit down and write for five hours because I want to, and Todd will be [00:20:00] like, how do you do that? I don’t know how you do that. Todd will have Meeting after meeting after meeting and handle all of this like executive director kind of work and CEO kind of work and I’m like, that makes me miserable.
Cathy: How do you do that? And he loves it.
Todd: It’s really hard and I love it. And you write, and it’s really hard and I love it. What we’re trying to say is, if it’s really hard and you hate it, Stop doing it.
Cathy: You’re not, that’s your, that trajectory is not going in the direction you want it to because what you’re teaching, so you know, this is super old.
Cathy: I’m going to bring in kind of a way old thing, but from, you know, the power of now or a new earth Eckhart Tolle’s work, the journey should be filled with joy as much as the end result. And I think sometimes we feel. Like, I’m going to hate this whole process, but I’m going to get to the end and be glad I did it.
Cathy: I mean, we can make a case for this, you know, like I didn’t like going to piano lessons and then once I could [00:21:00] play, I was so grateful. That could be true, but a lot of people who play piano actually loved playing the piano when they were playing and then they became really good and they enjoyed the whole thing.
Todd: Well, it’s sorry to go back to Whiplash, but there’s a movie called that we talked about 10 years ago and it’s a really harsh drumming instructor. teaching this young boy how to be a good drummer. And at the end of the movie, he, it turns out is a good drummer, is an outstanding drummer. And my response, and some people be like, you see, and here’s my thing.
Todd: One is at what cost?
Cathy: Yeah. The kid’s miserable. The kid’s miserable.
Todd: And then secondly, how do you know he would not have been a better drummer with a more optimistic, enthusiastic, positive coach? Correct. We do not know that in that movie because we only have one scenario. So there’s always another way of approaching it.
Cathy: Exactly. And this is the thing. This is like what we, this happens in parenting. If I hadn’t done this, that, or the other, if I hadn’t, You know, uh, a part that I write in my book is about [00:22:00] how moms especially will tell me, yeah, my daughter hates me now and she hates that I’m doing this and she hates that I’m saying this, but when she’s 25 she’ll come back and thank me.
Cathy: But what I always say to them is, but you’re missing now. Yeah. So what are going to be the implications of the fact that your daughter has not felt safe with you? for this many years and that she can’t talk to you and that you’re not available to her because she’s too busy angry at you and hating you because you’re not listening to her.
Cathy: And so what are the implications of that you didn’t have a relationship during this time? And it’s this really old belief system of like, we push our kids and that we created our kids and they create themselves. We support them in becoming themselves. And sometimes that looks like the way we predicted, and sometimes that looks like something we’ve never seen before.
Cathy: And our job is to support them in doing those things. And here’s the thing, the things, and I’m putting this in air quote, it might be a new sport, it might be a new job, it might be a new major. There’s no guarantees in it. This [00:23:00] isn’t a movie where the end result is everybody’s clapping and crying at the end and everything worked out perfectly.
Cathy: This is where then my dad’s. Comment of you’ll look back and understand why that happened. Did you meet someone in that process that later helps you? Did you find a best friend? Did you do something like give something up that you no longer needed? Did you learn a skill? Like if you watch the bear, the, the, one of the most interesting things about Season 3 episode 1 that I really loved and a lot of people didn’t like season 3 as much as Todd and I did.
Cathy: I loved it. And episode 1 is kind of a flashback episode where you can see Karmie’s, Karmie is the main character, his experiences, but it’s in a non linear order, okay? And what you recognize is all the people that came into his life, good and bad, all the experiences, his childhood, you know, teachers that were amazing, teachers that were, that were harmful and abusive.
Cathy: And you see how it’s gotten him to where he is. And [00:24:00] now the big question for Carmi is which one are you going to follow, right? Which one is your trajectory? And we’re not, we don’t know yet because the show’s still going. But, My point is, is that that’s life right there. And do you have, like, what I want to build up in my girls is their sense of self.
Cathy: Their sense of ability to adapt, their sense of ability, their ability to be in relationship, so they can go through all of these life processes. Not to give them a path where I say, you stay on this, and you do this, and then you’ll be happy. Cause that’s
Todd: not true. And I want to go back to something you said a few minutes ago about, um, you know, when my kid turns 25, then she’ll see.
Todd: the value of everything.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: And I think we talked about this last week when we talked about, um, the Glennon podcast, but, um, some, there’s some statistic on there that’s like you spend 90 percent of your time with your kids from zero to 18. But your kid will probably live for another 50 years and hopefully you will [00:25:00] live alongside with them until we pass.
Todd: And if our time is going to be spent teaching lessons at the expense of the joy of relationships and connecting, this little 18 year span that we have. Yeah. is sacred. And if we’re going to spend most of our time, you know, and our kids off. Yeah. And, and I, I, you know, two weeks ago, I think you and I talked about how I was giving my kid a hard time for eating out too much.
Todd: And is there a space for teaching money management? Of course there is. And if it’s at the expense of connecting authentically in a relationship, that’s, that’s a wasted. So I’m just, I want to make sure the audience knows that I know that that’s the goal for me is to. continue to connect with my daughters in a really healthy way.
Todd: And there’s times when I do rupture a connection and then I have to go back and fix it.
Cathy: I thought that connect that discussion we had is really interesting because what that brought us to was more [00:26:00] about why is Todd doing what he’s doing? It had nothing to do with his parenting. It had nothing to do with my daughter.
Cathy: Maybe some things came up that brought these things up, but for him, all these things that came up on the surface in that moment, um, for a million trillion reasons was I want to teach my kids something. I’m fearful. I haven’t taught them. I don’t want my kids to be spoiled. I’m worried about the bottom line of our finances.
Cathy: I’m afraid about money. We may not have enough. And all these things accumulated until he came out and said, you need to stop eating out. And that conversation was, is he wrong for it for telling our girls, Hey, eat at home more when you want, you know, so let’s not be spending money on food. There’s no problem.
Cathy: With this kind of conversation, it’s how you’re having it and why you’re having it. And where it’s coming from. And where it’s coming from.
Todd: And instead of me dealing with my own crap about worrying about spoiling our kids or spending too much money, I instead on that afternoon, or I think it was in the morning, I projected all of my insecurities on my kid.
Todd: [00:27:00] Yeah, you imposed. Instead of me doing my own work.
Cathy: Yeah. And the thing is, is that Todd, like, You know what, an hour after we did that podcast and had a conversation, went up and said to Cameron, Hey, I didn’t handle that very well. Um, it doesn’t mean that Todd then takes back everything that he said. He still would like people to eat the food in the fridge.
Cathy: That’s not something he’s like pulled back from as far as a belief system.
Todd: Well, and we as parents, are flawed because we’re human beings. Correct. And I think a good kind of litmus test on parenting is how often do we as parents apologize or say, you know what, I didn’t, I don’t know if I apologize. I sometimes.
Todd: You said
Cathy: I didn’t, I
Todd: don’t like the way I don’t like the way, and I say that to my kids about every few months, I think. Yeah. When I’m like, oh, that. That was not handled well by me. And I think it’s a really important piece of parenting that I don’t think that we talk about enough.
Cathy: Yeah. And, and I, I feel like I am a little more proactive in that there are times, like [00:28:00] for example, like yesterday I had a headache, weather stuff.
Cathy: I don’t know. It was just long, long month or something. And, and I then say to everybody, I’m fine, but I’m going to go. sleep and I’m going to go relax and I’m just going to go be by myself and you guys don’t need to worry about me. I’m totally cool. Got it under control and I’ll be down in a little bit.
Cathy: Now, I know people listening that say, what is that? What I’m trying to do is not have anybody concerned about me. I’m also not, I’m looking to get my needs met, which is let me have some space ahead of time. I’m looking to make sure everybody knows that they don’t need to, you know, do anything. Do you know what I mean?
Cathy: Like, I’m going to go do this proactive thing. And, and I also do that with work. Guys, I’m going to go away for a few days and I need to do this. It’s got nothing to do with you guys. Like I, you take accountability. You, you take ownership of your own stuff. I tend to have less outbursts as Todd does, but I have as many feelings as Todd does.
Cathy: I just tend to [00:29:00] like say ahead of time, I’m having feelings. So I’m going to take a break. Instead of, it doesn’t, I’m not saying I never have like said something to my kids that I’ve had to pull back and say, hey, that wasn’t about you. Of course I have, but I tend to know when I’m like, I’m done with people.
Cathy: Yeah. You stay ahead of it a little bit. A little bit. Yeah. And I’m also, and that is a. And sometimes it’s too over the top where everyone’s like, fine, mom, go sleep. We weren’t going to bother you anyway. Like I, I realized that sometimes my experience is way too skewed the other way where I’m too concerned about what everybody thinks about what I’m doing, but I’m, my goal is to my, I mean, I guess this is the show.
Cathy: If you’ve listened to this show a year, five years, 14 years, as long as we’ve been doing it, the show is about relationships and it’s the most important thing to me. I think that relationships are life. And it’s interesting because the 14 years that we’ve been doing this show, there’s been all this great research to demonstrate that is why people live as long as they [00:30:00] do.
Cathy: Do they have healthy relationships, not just with other people, but with themselves. So us as parents, not only are we trying to build a relationship with our kids, we are also teaching our kids to build a relationship with themselves. And how do we do that? We let them monitor their own life trajectory.
Cathy: Instead of telling them what to do all the time, we help them find their own inner workings.
Todd: Yeah, just to kind of double down on that, our social connections are a much better predictor on our well being and even how old we live until we die. Like, you know, there’s all these studies about cigarette smokers and, you know, Alcoholics and all these things, and the bottom line is the best thing we can do to elongate our life from a quality and a length standpoint is by having solid social connections.
Todd: And if we as parents are, have an adversarial relationship with our children, that’s not a good start. Like, we’re supposed to be the ones that they can kind of count [00:31:00] on. And if we’re the ones always teaching disciplining and making sure that that this world is a tough place and I got to beat you down so that you’re tough enough to get through it that you think you’re helping but you’re really not.
Cathy: Well that’s really a sense of a lot of times as parents we swing one way or the other we say I’m going to do things exactly different than my parents did and I’m going to be a completely different person which is about us or I’m going to do exactly what my parents did and Raised my kids just like my parents raised me, which is again all about us.
Cathy: We’re not paying attention to the kid We’re paying attention to what we did get or what we didn’t get and so we as parents instead the whole thing The whole game here in parenting is do you see the person in front of you? And are you there? So, learning about who they are, um, I actually just saw a, um, and this is again, won’t be new for those of you who listen to, um, this show, cause we talk about this all the time, but there’s this clip going around on TikTok from [00:32:00] Tig Notaro, the comedian, and she had kind of an interesting relationship with her parents.
Cathy: You’ve kind of got to know her backstory and where she’s from and everything, but she was talking about that after her mom died. Her father, and it might have even been her stepfather, said to her, he’s like, one thing I realized is that I thought it was like a parent’s job to tell you about, I’m paraphrasing this, but it was something like, I thought it was a parent’s job to tell you about who to be.
Cathy: And he goes, and what I realize now is it was my job to get to know who you were. And he said, and I didn’t do that. And I’m sorry. And she was like, thank you. Like, he thought it was his job to be like, don’t do this, don’t do this, be this way, do this. And what he realized is the whole job.
Todd: was just knowing this person.
Todd: Well, one thing that you’re good at, because I think I have a little bit more of a one size fits all parenting philosophy, and you are really good at [00:33:00] zeroing in on each of our three daughters. Um, you know, and it’s tough if you’re, if you only have one kid, you don’t have any comparison.
Cathy: Yeah. So you can really zoom in on that
Todd: one.
Todd: But I, I always think of Phil Jackson, who had to deal with Scottie Pippa, Michael Jordan, Dennis Rodman. Right. And Luke Longley. And Luke Longley. Come on. And Ron Harper. And Stevie Kerr. What was that bald guy, Horace Grant? He wasn’t bald. Wasn’t he bald? I don’t think so. Yes he was! Horace Grant. He had the glasses?
Todd: He had glasses. I don’t remember him being bald. Anyways, he, Phil, the reason Phil is a Hall of Fame coach is because he treated each of those guys equally. differently because they were different. They were different. And here I am being like, you know, coming in as a one size fits all approach and this family, we don’t blah, blah, blah.
Todd: And we could, you can have those declarations, but even how you communicate that to each of the three kids needs to be a little bit different. I think if you’re really trying to. See who these people are.
Cathy: And know their personalities and how, like, saying one [00:34:00] thing to one kid will do one thing and then saying a similar thing to the next kid will do another thing.
Cathy: Yeah,
Todd: you could have, like, the same exact thing and have two completely different reactions.
Cathy: And I think as parents, we want it to be, we’re like, well, this should be easier, so I’m going to make it about the way I do it. And, and again, there, again, this is all interesting because if you have 10 kids, You know, I don’t know anybody listening, you know, you may have 10 kids and you’re like, okay, there’s just a way we got to do things to survive.
Cathy: I get it. Like, you’re like, everyone’s having the same lunch. We’re doing like, there are, there’s always a story that someone has for me where they’re like, but what about this? Well, then you have to follow that pattern. You have 10 kids. And so this is something you have to do. But as far as when you’re with them and when you’re talking to them, you know, There are ways to understand, you know, our girls are just so different and saying one thing to one empowers her and saying the same thing to another defeats her.
Cathy: And there’s, that’s not them being weak or strong. That’s them being them. [00:35:00] That’s just who they are. And there are things, there’s experiences they’re going to have in life that help build them up, that knock them down. All of our girls have had pain in their lives, hard experiences. We didn’t have to create those experiences.
Cathy: They happened. And what I like, my favorite thing now about having basically adult children, because my youngest is going to be 17 in September, is that they know when they come home they’re safe. They’re like, life is getting a little hard. I’m going to come home and regroup and talk about my life and.
Cathy: You know, have some good food and laugh and watch movies and I feel safe. Fill up your gas tank at home. Exactly. And that’s what we wanted for them when they were younger. And of course, did our girls had times when they were like, we need to get out of this house and be with our friends. Of course, it’s not, they had to go through their, their developmentally appropriate, you know, experiences.
Cathy: And they still are in, in many ways. Um, all I want is just that they know, And I struggle with this a lot [00:36:00] because sometimes there’s people who come through our house who I just have a belief system in my home. Everything, you know, who my girls are is they’re safe and they’re protected and we don’t keep secrets and everything’s out in the open.
Cathy: And they can be themselves. And they can be themselves. And there have been times when people have come in and out of our home where that hasn’t felt safe. It’s, this is too hard to talk about, but I don’t like my home being a place where anyone has to pretend to anything, anything. I don’t like that. You mean like
Todd: if one of our girl’s friends come over and they modify who they are based on, is
Cathy: that or a family member, like the conversation that we had, like where I have to pretend one thing because we’re not sure if we’re going to tell this person this thing.
Cathy: I don’t like that. I want, I don’t like that. The idea of keeping things from people or being different than we are to make other people comfortable. If you’re in my home, this is who we are. And you find your comfort level, not I’m gonna find it [00:37:00] for you. And I think a lot of that, the reason why I I feel so strongly about that is so much of my history is about being a chameleon and people pleasing and making sure everybody else is okay.
Cathy: That I know that vibe really well, where I can tell when someone else wants me to make them feel comfortable. And I don’t do that as much anymore. Not saying I never do it, but I don’t, I don’t like that vibe. So anyway, that was kind of a tangent in itself. Um, the whole thing that we’re talking about here.
Cathy: is if you allow your children to have these experiences where they go do something and then maybe they want to shift or they want to change or they’re not sure what they’re doing, their trajectory, they’re focused on themselves and what they know they want for themselves and what they are ready to do or to try or to give up and that we follow their lead.
Cathy: And I think a lot of parents when they say, well, that wouldn’t work for my kid because they’re lazy or they play video games [00:38:00] all the time or whatever, it’s. Have they had that space to do that? Or have, are you saying they’re not doing what I’m telling them to do? This is a very, um, this is hard to do in a moment.
Cathy: This is hard to shift a whole concept of a family in a moment. And I think
Todd: what you mean is, let’s say that there is, I’ll say a 13 year old girl who loves to game, right? Cause girls love to game. Sure they do. And, uh, and the kid just, Games and games and games at the expense of schoolwork and blah blah.
Todd: It’s hard for people to listen to this saying, just let them be because there’s been 13 years of relationship building, either positive or negative, that it’s hard to, you know, we, we can’t say this is how to do it because every single human being and experience and parenting philosophy and relationship is different from one another.
Todd: I think what you and I are saying is we’re just trying to give, You know, a background of what the intention is and what can happen as a result of that intention, [00:39:00] but it’s really hard to do it on a case by case basis. So
Cathy: let’s talk about the 13 year old girl who loves to game. What has happened before that?
Cathy: Is she, does she feel under pressure in her family? Does she feel unseen? Does she feel, Um, acknowledged and loved and, and gaming is just an outlet for her, maybe a social, um, outlet. Is it a numbing experience for her to get away from her family? Is it she’s struggling at school and her only people that she knows she can talk to is on her headset when she’s gaming?
Cathy: What does it mean to her? And when she’s, Having an experience, are we listening to her and and acknowledging her experience and maybe even saying can I game with you? Can you teach me what you’re doing so I understand better at the same time saying you still got to go to school You still got to turn things in gaming can be a part of your life But there’s still an expectation that we have in this family as far as You’ve got to play the game of school.
Cathy: You have to show up. And when they’re not, then you [00:40:00] can, because that’s the thing is like, you know, Todd and I are talking now about our 21 year old, our 20 or our 19 year old and our 16 year old. Of course, we’ve had experiences in there when we’ve had to be like, okay, You need to slow down and these things you’re doing, you need to get back into your rhythm of going to school and you know, we, uh, we had a daughter who had school anxiety for a long period of time.
Cathy: Like, it doesn’t mean that you allow. them to go off the rails. It just means that you are in those experiences also compassionate toward them and what they’re going through rather than being, um, not derogatory or, or blaming them or saying that they should be doing better.
Todd: Well, in my invitation, if you’re listening to this podcast and you’re, cause I say this sometimes, like, yeah, but I tried that.
Todd: Yeah. But yeah, but if you’re doing a lot of yeah, but we have a show called the yeah, but do we, yeah, I gotta, I gotta look for that one. Um, I’m not saying that you haven’t tried it [00:41:00] and it hasn’t worked, but we as the grown ups with the fully formed prefrontal cortex, it’s our job to get curious and figure out how that didn’t work.
Todd: How do I, how do I pivot and connect with them? Using a slightly different tactic. Um, the minute we’re like, feel defeated, like, well, there’s nothing that, here it works. And the only thing that works is ultra discipline, and I’m gonna ground my kid, and I’m gonna do this, and I’m gonna do that. Um, I think that that’s a shortcut.
Todd: I think that there’s always an opportunity to pivot. Like, you and I are pivoting constantly. Oh, this didn’t land with this kid. Let’s try this. Um, maybe this message would be better. Maybe this is a time where she needs, you know, to be able to push up against something. Maybe this is a time for radical acceptance, and we just love the kid because the kid is really trying hard and nothing’s working for them.
Todd: Like, just continue to pivot from one thing to another and see what works and knowing the whole time that you’re probably going to screw it up, but keep trying, keep moving forward.
Cathy: Well, and I would back off from that comment. It’s not that you’re going to screw it up, and I’m putting that in [00:42:00] air quotes, but that not every single thing you try is going to work.
Cathy: Screwing it up is like where you’re not doing anything or you’re doing things intentionally.
Todd: You’re going to try things that don’t. You’re
Cathy: going to try things like I, you know, relationships are a creative endeavor. Like the belief that relationships should just work because we’ve committed or we’ve been, we’re married or because this is my kid and that we say, you just need to love me because I am this.
Cathy: Relationships are creative, you know, changing, adapting, um, altering experience. Like you don’t, like, for example, today’s my birthday, as we talked about at the beginning of Todd and my relationship, Todd didn’t care much about birthdays and that didn’t mean he didn’t care about me. He just doesn’t believe birthdays are kind of like a thing.
Cathy: I think birthdays are a thing. I love birthdays. So at the beginning of our relationship, Todd would not be that
Todd: engaged. I would have a normal day at work and then we would go for dinner and that’s, that’s my version of a birthday.
Cathy: Or he would have to work or he’d be gone. Like there [00:43:00] was a picture I found today that where when the girls were young, it was 10 years ago and you were gone, you were traveling.
Cathy: And I went out to dinner with the girls for my birthday. Obviously I love my daughters and I enjoyed that day. I remember exactly where we were. It was beautiful out. But it’s interesting to think about that in hindsight, because I, it’s a day, it’s our relationship, we’re married and it’s one day of the year where it’s my birthday.
Cathy: And to be able to say that’s important because that’s important to you. If you have a partner who doesn’t care, then no big deal. Like, you don’t have to do this for everybody. Again, it’s getting to know that person. And so where you and I are right now versus 10 years ago, where you’re like, let’s do this and let’s do this and sending me a text and let’s go for a walk.
Cathy: Like, you know, today’s important. And I appreciate that.
Todd: Yeah. Years to figure out what lights you up. Right. And what, What, how you prioritize your birthdays, your love languages, like, this is all a dance. And I feel like we’ve been doing this for 22 years of [00:44:00] marriage. We’re finally, we’re finally getting, we danced beautifully together when we were five years in our marriage.
Todd: And at the same time, we stepped on each other’s feet all the time. Right.
Cathy: It’s creative, and it’s a process. It’s like a, you know, and then things still come up, but that’s the same with our kids. Like, first of all, there’s so many levels to this. Their life is a creative process. Some trajectories don’t work out.
Cathy: Sometimes they don’t get the internship or the job, and then it doesn’t work out, and it didn’t mean they’re a failure in life. It just means that didn’t work. So what are we going to do next? The ability for our kids to adapt, and then for us as parents to adapt to that. Adapting, you know, there’s layers and layers and layers, but the big trust in that there are, you know, when the relationship seems to be difficult, that there’s still ways.
Cathy: Like I wrote about, um, in my book about, uh, a mom and a daughter who realized they were constantly in each other’s faces and they were felt confronted by each other and they were annoyed at each other. And so the mom made a plan. with her daughter. She was like, you know what? We don’t have to talk throughout the [00:45:00] day.
Cathy: I know you’re annoyed at me, but at the end of the day, let’s either look at the stars or watch the sun go down. That’s it. We don’t even have to talk. Let’s just do that. And they did that. And you can, you know, you know where this story is going. It was something they committed to because they were invested in their relationship.
Cathy: And after like five or six days of doing that, they obviously had Better conversations going forward. It didn’t mean it again. It’s not
Todd: what’s great about that story is like, I see myself in that story in that I’d be like, I want to connect now because I have a 30 minute window here. And I feel like in that example, somebody is like, This is what I need to connect.
Todd: Right. Are you willing to meet me what it is, which is watch the sunset or go look at stars for 15 minutes? That way, during the entire day, you know that you’re going to have that. Like, that’s a really smart way of setting it up.
Cathy: And I’ve, you know, what they were able to both express after was that, you know, What it gave them was a sense of wonder about the world, that a lot of what they were [00:46:00] focusing on, these little things that they were just getting caught up in because we’re human beings.
Cathy: What about the fact that the sun comes up and goes down every day? What about the fact that there’s stars over our head when we go to bed? It gives you this broader, widened perspective of where we are and what we’re doing. And to be able to teach our kids without teaching them, I’m putting that in air quotes, you’re not like, look at the stars.
Cathy: You’re just like, let’s together go watch the sun go down. That’s all. Um, and that’s all I’ll ask of you today.
Todd: So, um, just to try to kind of expand our consciousness a little bit here, um, I’m always on these YouTube clips and it was about the expansiveness of the universe. Right. And think about how big the Earth is.
Todd: Like it’s crazy huge, right? And then Neil deGrasse Tyson just came across my YouTube feed and he talks about the size of the Milky Way galaxy. We can fit 1300 Earths into Jupiter. And Jupiter is like [00:47:00] small compared to some other large things in the universe. Like, it’s so easy for us to get bogged down with the Whatever.
Todd: My
Cathy: kid didn’t get the internship. My kid didn’t get it.
Todd: And then you think there’s 1300 Earths they could fit in a Jupiter, like, oh my gosh. I know.
Cathy: Well, widen your perspective is to me one of the most important, again I keep talking about my book, but I’m sorry, you’re going to have to hear about it because it’s where I am right now, is that the number one, you know, I do, I wrote like a guide for real conversations with our girls.
Cathy: And number one is widen your perspective. This myopic viewpoint that we have about grades and AP classes and the right activity and the right friends and the right look and the right aesthetic, it’s, it has a place. You can have fun with it, but when it becomes the end all be all, you have lost your wind perspective.
Cathy: You don’t, you don’t see the big picture and the big picture is what allows us to adapt.
Todd: And the big picture is connection.
Cathy: It’s connection in that [00:48:00] we’re here. Like, there have been times, you know, again, I have gone through some depressions in my life, some significant pain, some grief, some loss, and I, what I always come back to in those times, and I’ve written them down and talked about them so I’ll never forget them, is I’m just grateful to be sitting out on my front porch.
Cathy: in the fresh air and just be here. And you can’t feel that until you’ve been knocked down by life enough. Because we are like, I’m only grateful if I get my needs met, if I get a new car, if I get this job and that everyone, you know, does, gets me a present. That’s when I’ll be complete. Or when I have this many followers on Instagram.
Cathy: All that is crap. It’s nice, it can be fun, but the, the, the thing that pain gets you to is where you’re just like, look at me. Being a human.
Todd: Wonder. And we have bird feeders in our front yard and it’s, I don’t know if there’s anything more entertaining than watching the squirrels and the birds kind of decide [00:49:00] who’s eaten the seed in the bird feeder.
Todd: Yeah. Like look at these two species dancing together and that stuff is everywhere. Like, everything is amazing and nobody’s happy.
Cathy: And you have to pay attention, and I don’t just mean do it and show your kids, look, look, look. Do it for yourself and your kids will look, look, look because you’re doing it.
Cathy: Like, right now on my counter I have, let’s see, two, four, six, I have seven, um, caterpillars that cocooned. And they’re on the counter. So in the next week, I’m going to be, there’s going to be butterflies and sometimes my girls are around to see them come out and sometimes they’re not. Like sometimes I just do it myself because I want to do it, right?
Cathy: It’s for me. And sometimes I’m not home and Tad is to do it. Have you ever taken a butterfly out? And it’s a really beautiful experience and it’s the whole idea.
Todd: And we should explain what the experience is. Oh. We go to bed. The cocoon is there. And
Cathy: you kind of know it’s going to open because it’s shaking.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: And then we wake up and [00:50:00] there’s a butterfly inside a relatively small jar compared to how big this thing is now. And we gently put him or her out on the patio and the wings are wet and we see it try to dry his wings or her wings off. I keep
Cathy: them on my finger for a while. Oh, do you? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Cathy: Like I especially. If their, if their wings are really wet, then maybe I’ll set it down so it can dry a little bit. But then I’ll put my finger there and let them sit on my finger until they fly away. It’s kind of magical and amazing. And it’s, um.
Todd: And it does it according to its own timetable. Because like, okay, time to fly.
Todd: And they’ll be standing there for another hour and a half.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: Like, so even that, you gotta surrender into how the butterflies choose to, to bail.
Cathy: I’ve sat with a butterfly on my finger and then I’ll put it, we have this like cement frog that’s a really good drying place for them. And I’ll put it on the frog and sometimes I’ll come out an hour later and it still hasn’t flown away.
Cathy: Like to Todd’s point, it has its own schedule, it has its own [00:51:00] trajectory, you know, and we don’t get to be like, go, fly, fly, you know, like it decides and it knows. Just like, um, our children know what they want to do and what they don’t want to do, and what feels right for a time and what doesn’t. And yes, they’ll make mistakes, but from that mistake they learn what does feel right now.
Cathy: You see what I mean? We have to be able to feel the disappointment sometimes or feel the, the discontent of a moment. And handle that so we can get to the next moment instead of our children being terrified of what if I make a mistake then my parents won’t love me or they won’t support me. I mean that’s just too much pressure and um, I don’t know I feel like as we’re wrapping up here go watch that Hyundai commercial if you haven’t seen it already.
Todd: I’ll put in the show notes. Yeah,
Cathy: scroll below.
Todd: Um, and then um, we’re doing a Zen Talk I decided a week from today. Okay. I should be on Monday. Yeah, the fifth, and we also have some micro communities. Check out Team Zen. Anything else you want to say to [00:52:00] close the show? Um,
Cathy: subscribe if you haven’t already to, uh, my Zen Parenting Moment.
Cathy: It’s a sub stack and you can just scroll below and subscribe and it’ll come to your inbox every Friday. Um, it’s kind of a nice You know, something to remember what’s most important and just thanks for listening and yay 53! Yay 53! Happy birthday to you
Todd: sweetie! And then, uh, quick thanks to our partner Jeremy Craft.
Todd: If you live in Chicago and you need any work done in or outside your house, give him a call 630 956 1800. Keep truckin 630 956 1800.
