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Todd: Here we go. My name is Todd. And this is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is episode number 774. Uh huh. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is that the best predictor of a child’s well being is a parent’s self understanding.
Todd: On today’s show, um, we are going to address a topic we have addressed many, many times, but it keeps showing up, which tells us, tells me, that it’s needed. Um, I don’t know what to call it because the name keeps on moving from one thing to the next.
Cathy: Well, and everything’s a little, little different. The topic that I think we’re going to be talking about is cognitive labor.
Cathy: And we’ve also called [00:01:00] it emotional labor and invisible labor, and they all have their own kind of vibe to them. It doesn’t mean that we’re having a hard time sticking with one word. It’s just evolving. Like, so emotional labor is investing in the feelings of, you know, everybody else and doing the, the heavy lifting as far as our own emotions and our Um, with others, Invisible Labor is the actual doing of the things that nobody sees, um, and then the Cognitive Labor is how we’re maintaining all those lists in our minds and we know that we are the front line of defense when doing things.
Cathy: So they’re, they all have a little different vibe to them.
Todd: Yeah, they have a different vibe, ton of overlap, obviously, between the topics. And I did a search on our podcast on Team Zen Circle, and just put in the, you know, the word labor, because that way it would have picked up emotional, invisible, and um, emotional labor is an unpaid job.
Todd: I’d episode 405, real time emotional labor, episode 440, women aren’t nags, we’re [00:02:00] just fed up, episode number 495, and then we have like seven others where we talk about it as well. So I’m going to include at least a few of those in the show notes. If you like this topic and this discussion and you want to take a deeper dive with your partner, I’m going to just go ahead and share those other three podcasts in the show notes so you can keep going with it.
Todd: All right. Sounds good. So what, uh, inspired this is, uh, you and I both listen to We Can Do Hard Things. You listen probably every week. I listen when I, when you think that it’s a good idea for me to, or Or if, uh, if I’m interested, because sometimes I’m interested in the topic, but you know. Yeah,
Cathy: and you do, I want to give you kind of a shout out, a half shout out.
Cathy: No, let’s do a full shout out. Okay, well, part of my book, I did some research about, um, the men in my life and also a bunch of, asked some other women to ask their men in their lives. Like it was kind of, um, you know, just research from my perspective, um, about [00:03:00] if, or from my people I know is what I mean. Um, if any of you, any of you men have a podcast that you follow or subscribe to that is two women talking to each other, at least two women talking to each other, that it’s not a man and a woman or men that tend to bring in a woman occasionally or that it’s two women at least.
Cathy: And, um, I didn’t find anybody except you had subscribed to We Can Do Hard Things. Mm
hmm.
Cathy: I don’t think, to your point, you didn’t listen every week, which is why it’s kind of my partial, but I still, I still am glad that you, you do.
Todd: Yeah. Well, if, if it’s important to you, it’s important to me. That doesn’t mean I do it every single time, but you’re like, Hey, just in case you’re looking, you know, sometimes like, Hey, listen to this.
Todd: And I feel like you and I have that, ability with each other is like, this is really good. And even if you don’t want to listen to it, will you listen to it? And I’ve done that [00:04:00] for, I’ve, I’ve shared a podcast that I really like for you and vice versa.
Cathy: And let me say one thing just to round that up is that why that’s important to me that men are also listening to podcasts that have two women talking.
Cathy: And this came about because, um, Monica Padman, who is the host of Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, she also has a podcast with Liz Plank. And she was saying that on the Armchair Expert Umbrella, which they have a bunch of podcasts, that a lot of people she knows, men, specifically men, don’t listen to Synced, which is Liz and Monica, because it’s two women, and they’re like, that one doesn’t apply to me.
Yeah.
Cathy: And this is this misunderstanding that we have, that if two women are talking about things, then nobody, then the other genders can’t relate.
Todd: So I’m just going to go through my feed just for fun. Okay. Uh, 60 songs that explain the 90s. That’s a man. Right. Bandsplain, that’s a woman host talking about a band.
Todd: Uh, Drop In, that’s my sister. Yes. There you [00:05:00] go. Well, I’m talking about two women talking to each other, not just a woman. It’s got to be at least two. Yeah.
Cathy: Cause you’re going to find a lot of women in there. Yeah, I guess so. Like Kara Swisher. Right. You know, I’m not saying women aren’t represented. I’m saying, would you be willing to listen to a podcast that were two women talking to each other?
Todd: So like re imagining love would not. Sometimes Allie’s talking to another woman. Yeah. She has a, but it’s an interview thing. Correct. It’s, it’s sometimes her and a guy. Sometimes her and a woman. Yeah. So a dedicated more than two women every single week. They are the hosts. Uh, yeah. The only one I have is Glennon’s and like I said, I don’t even listen to it very often.
Todd: Yeah. So,
Cathy: yeah. And it’s just this thing that, um, we as a society, we view. You know, men having conversations, or men and women having conversations as conversations, and we look at two women having a conversation as niche. Like that is, that is women’s talk, versus can we all, you know, find something in [00:06:00] anybody’s conversation.
Cathy: And that takes some, that takes some, uh, Pointing out at least.
Todd: So you kind of gave an overview of what emotional labor, invisible labor, mental load is all about. So I, do you think we need to kind of re explain it for somebody who might be listening to this for the first time? I think, um, briefly,
Cathy: I, the only thing I think I’d say is why do people now say cognitive labor more than anything?
Cathy: I think it’s because we now have an understanding of that it really is something we carry in our minds. as something we need to do. For example, um, I may say to you, and I’m going to use things that you may not be true in this space and time. So you can push back on me if you would like. I can’t wait. For example, Todd, um, if he goes to the grocery store, he will say, Everybody, tell me what to get at the grocery store.
Cathy: Kathy, what do you want from the grocery store? And so I am still tasked with going through the kitchen and looking through [00:07:00] what’s there because Todd’s going to go, which is the physical labor, which can be invisible sometimes because children wake up and magically there’s food in the fridge, right? And so, um, a lot of times it’s, you know, just doing that act is really helpful.
Cathy: But the cognitive labor is me knowing what everybody wants to eat, what people have for lunch, what people need in their smoothies, what the girls have been asking for, me making a list on Alexa. It’s in my mind as my job. And then Todd says, because that’s your job, tell me what to go get, which then I have to tell him.
Cathy: So it’s a mind thing versus a, and a noticing. I, we’re going to talk a little bit about that today too, right? The noticing. Yeah. And so I think some people would say from the outside, without knowing that piece, they’d say, but Todd goes to the grocery store, so you guys, that’s even, right? Um, I will say to you that, um, Todd is in charge of the dentist for all of our family, and I have zero part in that.
[00:08:00] Mm hmm.
Cathy: That’s all Todd. Yeah. So he doesn’t, he doesn’t say to me, do we need to go to the dentist? He’s like, I’m on it. Here’s our appointments. And so I do notice those things. This isn’t, um, this isn’t a beating up on Todd situation. Oh,
Todd: good. I don’t want it to be a beat up on Todd situation. Yeah. Um, I, I’m a little nervous and going down this rabbit hole, just grocery wise.
Todd: When I say, tell me what you guys want, what I mean is, and maybe I need to be more clear about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Aside from the normal stuff, like the fruit and the vegetables that we get every single week, because I got that, even though I sometimes don’t. Right. You sometimes say, like, we need apples and lemons.
Todd: We just want to say, I didn’t, I didn’t realize that. But, you know, is there, somebody wants a different type of bagel, somebody needs Tampons. Somebody needs something like the non weekly stuff. So I feel like I don’t do, uh, clearly say what I want. What I want is for you all to tell me, Hey, out of the ordinary, is there anything that you guys want?
Todd: Right. And I’ll take care of everything else. But [00:09:00] that’s not what I say. I say, what do you guys want from the grocery store?
Cathy: Um, yeah, and, and that’s the thing is what you’re asking for, there isn’t a, a inherent obvious problem. Like, I think most people listening to this would be like, that’s not really a problem.
Cathy: It’s not. But I think what the difference is, is again, a lot of, you know, like you said, tampons, I would know. If we needed more of those, right, I would be noticing that and taking care of that. I also know like this morning, Cameron was in the kitchen and she’s like, she looked at the bread and it was old and she’s like, you know, grab bagels.
Cathy: I was like, okay. And a lot of that is cause I’m around and I’m hearing them. Right. A lot of times I put it on Alexa. A lot of times I know the kind of cheese they want. I know the kind of bread they like. I know because I’m watching them eat.
Todd: Yeah, you do a better job of noticing.
Cathy: Noticing. Which we’re going to talk.
Cathy: And that doesn’t mean that I don’t occasionally text them and say, if you need something else, let me know. Like that’s why this is really a conversation versus pointing a finger and saying you’re doing it wrong.
Todd: So I feel like we should jump into the deep end. And this is something you and I’ve [00:10:00] talked about on the podcast.
Todd: And we are going to, I think I do want to play at least one clip from, uh, The We Can Do Hard Things. Okay. Because, and we’re going to do that a little bit later. Um, who’s the expert on that? Do you remember her name?
Cathy: Uh, I will look it up for you. She had written a book or her dissertation, I believe.
Todd: We’ll figure it out.
Cathy: Um, yeah, I’ll, I’ll pull it up as you’re getting there. Um,
Todd: what I want, because I think the easiest way to illustrate this point. And this is not, I want to try to stay away from male, female, even though um, most of the time, not all the time, there’s plenty of dads out there that do the heavy lifting regarding mental load, emotional labor, invisible labor, but Most of the time, it’s, it’s balanced out the other way, right?
Cathy: Yeah, I mean that’s, and that’s not because these people are good and these people are bad. That’s societal and gender norms. Right,
Todd: and we’re going to talk a little bit about that, but what I want you to answer, and I, and I think we’ve even talked about this in [00:11:00] the past podcast, but it’s, it’s important enough to repeat.
Todd: Why is it annoying when a husband, I’ll say in this specific example, says to the wife who’s overwhelmed with life and things, What can I do to help?
Cathy: Right. Okay, so first of all, backtracking, Kate Mangino was the woman on the podcast. She is a gender expert. She works with, uh, international organizations to promote positive social change, um, et cetera, et cetera.
Cathy: So she, that was their expert. Um, why is that annoying?
Todd: You’re overwhelmed and I say to you, sweetie, hey, what can I do to help?
Cathy: What’s inherent in that question is that it’s my responsibility and it’s on my plate and I’m then asking you or you are asking how to help me versus you thinking this is just as much your responsibility.
Cathy: Why are you helping me instead of you and I, this is you and I, so, you know, I’ll do this [00:12:00] part, you do this part, versus Kathy, come up with a list of things for me to do and think through what I can do and figure out what I can do, which is again, another cognitive labor thing. Like, One of the examples that they gave, but I think it’s really good this time of year with all these camps and everything coming up in the fall, is like, for example, a, a story they told.
Cathy: So I’ll just, instead of saying this always happens, a story they told as a mom. Puts together like they’re like, Oh my gosh, my kid has to get in this camp or they have to do this thing. So they look up all of these different camps and how much they cost and what they are and what’s being taught and how long it is during the day.
Cathy: And then they make maybe an Excel spreadsheet or put it on a word document or something and then bring it to their partner and who is male. And then they say, okay, let’s look through these and make a decision together. And that part, they have a discussion and together they make a decision. And then we have this understanding that, Oh, they made that decision together.
Cathy: They both did the work, [00:13:00] but the first part of the work, which is remembering you need to do camp, number two, figuring out. How much money is needed and how much time and what the kid can handle and what they want and then finding all the different camps that can provide that was all the labor done before the decision and that sometimes gets overlooked.
Cathy: There is a sense of we’re doing this together when really that person, that partner, Just looked at the sheet and said, okay, I’m deciding between these three. This is the one.
Todd: Well, and the other real life example that we have that we’ve shared on the podcast, but I think it once again, bears repeating birthday parties, right?
Cathy: We’ve talked about these a million times. But it’s,
Todd: but it’s, but it’s real because it happens between us. So I do these videos for our kids on their birthday, basically take the greatest hits of the last 12 months and put them together and put them to music. Kathy does all the things, most all of the things, like maybe I’m in charge of.
Todd: blowing up the balloons or something like that. But aside from that, Kathy [00:14:00] sends out the invites, Kathy picks
Cathy: a date. Well, yeah, I was going to say that’s exactly what I was going to say is like there’s the beginning, which is a birthday is coming up.
Todd: Yeah. Yeah. Kathy sends out the invites. Kathy picks the date.
Todd: Kathy coordinates with the other family members to see if the date works. Um, maybe we, we support each other in deciding what we’re going to serve. The food. But, but 90. 4 percent of the responsibility falls to you. And it’s not like when we get married, this is what we were going to decide. We just kind of fell into these roles.
Todd: And then at, so then I play the birthday video and everybody claps for me because I did the birthday video and nobody’s clapping for Kathy for doing the other 94 percent of the things that it took to create that party. So I think that’s the thing.
Cathy: Yeah, because that’s the expected part, right? And that’s the unseen.
Cathy: That’s invisible. Right. Right? Because everybody’s there. So they’re like, now that we’re here, who’s going to entertain us?
Todd: So when I’m talking to my [00:15:00] clients, and it’s funny, when I advise my, so I coach men and I say to them, like, your wife doesn’t need another child to direct. So when I say to Kathy, um, tell me what to do.
Todd: Now all of a sudden I’m another child that she needs to tell what to do. Right. What I say to my guys, and sometimes I’m good at this and sometimes I’m not so good at it, just do it. Figure it out and do it and don’t ask and just step up as if she wasn’t there. As if she wasn’t even available to answer these questions.
Todd: Right. Um, And, like I said, some of that is me trying to get these guys to do things that I am sometimes unwilling to do, and sometimes I am willing. I am willing to do it.
Cathy: Well, there’s a difference between willing and then practicing and learning. Because let’s give, like, let’s go back to groceries, okay?
Cathy: Because it’s been, we’ve been talking about it lately. Initially, you’re like, I’m going to go to the grocery store, and this is the grocery store I’m going to, and everybody has to get things from this grocery store. And you’ll be like, if it’s not at this grocery store, I’m not [00:16:00] getting it, which is already very different than what I do, which is sometimes go to a few different grocery stores.
Cathy: Then you would be like, what does everyone need? And over the course of weeks, I would say, are you listening to Alexa? Because I put a list on her. And you’re like, Oh, no, I didn’t look. So right there, you’re, you know what I mean? There were, now you do. So I want to give you, but the, it’s not about giving credit.
Cathy: It’s that now that you’re in charge of it, it’s not, and I don’t want this to sound childlike. You are practicing something where every week, It’s more yours, and I don’t want to control it, but sometimes when you’re like, um, you know, tell me what you want, and I’m like, but you can listen to Alexa, you’re like, oh, okay, so then the next week you listen to Alexa, then that’s off my list.
Cathy: So, sometimes with, and again, we’re just talking about, I’m just going to focus on male, uh, female relationships right now, heteronormative relationships, is that, There is, instead of men throwing up their hands and going, well, you know, why don’t you just do it because it’s easier for you. If it [00:17:00] takes a couple weeks or a few times, they’re getting new information that we have been accumulating.
Cathy: Like, it’s not like I’ve always known how to go to the grocery store and get things for everybody. I had to learn that by watching my kids, by noticing what was missing, by noticing what wasn’t being eaten, by noticing those things. And then the request is, can you take this and there will be a bit of an uphill climb because you’re going to have to like start noticing and what the girls are asking for.
Cathy: But instead of being just like throwing up your hands and saying, but you already know there is a growth process.
Todd: I feel like what you’re getting at, they talked about this at the end and you and I have talked about this. Um, For in this example for you to give me the space to not do it exactly the way that you would want to do it for me to be able to screw up and I think about like when we were, when we were younger parents and you know, you and I didn’t struggle with this, but I know a lot of couples do.
Todd: Um, You, you were not much of a micromanager of me. So let’s say you, [00:18:00] you went away for the weekend with your girlfriends. Like I told you, don’t give me a list. Let me screw this up. I
Cathy: didn’t care what they wore or where they went. There are a
Todd: lot of partners out there that will give their husband. A list of everything that needs to be done.
Todd: And I, I know that that is done through a lens of love, but it’s also, um, I want the guy in this example to lean in and figure it out for himself. And I want the female in this example to let the guy, let her partner do it the way that he wants to do it in that example.
Cathy: I’ll give a caveat because we’ve been doing this show for almost 14 years is when we first started having this conversation, the girls were little.
Cathy: So it’s like they were so young that it’s like, Oh, I might take them to my mom’s or we might go to a park or whatever. And so I don’t care, like do whatever you want. When the girls are older and they’re in. They’ve got a tournament at three and the other one has a play date at nine. A lot of times the lists that are left aren’t necessarily like, do all these tasks for me.
Cathy: [00:19:00] It’s, this is the schedule for the day. Yeah. And the, and, and it’s not coming from me. As much as it’s coming from their
world,
Cathy: and I, and first of all, our kids weren’t super over involved, so that wasn’t a real huge issue. Like, they didn’t have, we didn’t have a lot of overlapping stuff. The girls kind of had their own, you know, they were able to do their own things, get to their own, um, camps or whatever.
Cathy: But, um, There were pieces that, and it’s hard to even remember, Todd, like, I know, but I know there were pieces you didn’t know they were doing. For sure. Like, or, oh, this, this kid’s going on a play date here? Who is this kid? Where do they live? And I’d have to give you that information. Sure, yeah.
Todd: Within reason.
Todd: Within reason. I just think that there’s a balance there between, uh, Uh, one partner is a total micromanager. Right. And then there’s the obvious things like, well, I don’t know where this person lives. Right. So anyways.
Cathy: Right. Same, right? You like, if you were like, yeah, they drop off the car. I’m being so like gender specific here, but, or gender, um, What’s the word I’m looking for?
Cathy: Stereotypical. But if you were like, drop off the car [00:20:00] at the mechanic, I might be like, where’s the mechanic? Like, I may, I’m not going to know that. Something I’m used to
Todd: doing that you don’t.
Cathy: Exactly. And that’s, and that’s the thing is we don’t, the goal of this discussion, and this is why Todd and I continue to have this discussion over the course of Every, this is not just for you guys, Todd and I do this all the time, is that it evolves and changes and the point isn’t to get each other and be like, see, I know more than you.
Cathy: That’s an immature way to go about this. It is, how can we Recognize what each other because we’ve done lots of podcasts where you and I like put together lists of here’s the things I focus on, here’s the things you focus on to have some awareness that there is some cognitive, um, you know, labor from your side, you’re thinking about things that I’m not thinking about, right?
Cathy: So this isn’t one sided. I think what’s difficult about this conversation when it comes to being a woman Is that a lot of it because of our programming and our conditioning is expected [00:21:00] that a woman does it. And there’s not a lot of consideration for the time it takes.
Todd: So I want to play. This is the only clip I want to play from.
Todd: It’s about 50 seconds, but I think it’s really, it’s really important.
Okay. Stuck on is. He has realized that I feel responsible for everyone’s happiness in my family. I have been socialized to feel responsible. And when someone in my family is sad, I feel sad and I feel responsible and I did something wrong and I need to help fix it.
And he does not feel responsible for the happiness in our family. He’ll be like, you know, one of the kids is sad. I’ll help them process it. I’ll do what I can, but it’s not my fault. How can you possibly think it’s my fault? Wow. So that’s healthy. That’s healthy. That’s what we’re working on now. It’s how do you get through that?
And I think that I’ve been socialized to accept that responsibility and he’s been socialized not to accept that responsibility. I would [00:22:00] say the magic is somewhere in the middle. I don’t think either one of us are right.
Todd: All right. There we go. I love that part where she said, neither one of us are right because you and I have had this conversation.
Todd: Decades, I guess. JC’s 20.
Cathy: Well, we’ve been married, yeah, 22 decades. Um,
Todd: I usually come from the place like, it’s gonna be fine, right? To oversimplify this whole discussion. And yours is, yeah, the only reason it’s going to be fine is because I’m doing all these things.
Cathy: It looks fine from your perspective because you know I’m gonna handle
Todd: it.
Todd: Right. Mm hmm. And I think that, I think that there’s this, pendulum or the spectrum. And I’m on this side over here being like, Oh, if they’re sad, they’re mad, they have a bad day at school, blah, blah, blah. We’ll figure it out. And then you’re over here, um, being, I don’t know, I don’t want to speak for you, but you’re like, no, we have to do all these things so that these, these young ladies that we’re bringing into this world feel attached to us in a healthy way and connected and emotional.
Todd: [00:23:00] And, um, you know, also, you know, making sure that they take care of themselves and, you know, I’m over here being like, it’s going to be fine. And you’re over here, maybe sometimes over managing their emotions.
Cathy: Uh, if not, I’m not managing their emotions, but I am experiencing what they are. So I’m not.
Cathy: necessarily trying to manage it. I just am experiencing it. But what I will say is I’ll go back to a conversation from probably five, six, seven years ago that we had where I came to talk to one of your men’s groups and this is when you guys used to just gather in a living room and um, and I was talking about At the time, we were calling it emotional labor and, um, visible labor.
Cathy: And there was somebody who said, well, you know, we were talking about laundry and that laundry needed to be done and there weren’t the right socks. And don’t you understand that, like, if these things that you expect to get done aren’t done, then that’s a problem. And one of the men said, well, then just don’t, then the kid doesn’t get the socks they want, or they don’t get the shirt they want or every, you know, it’s not ready or they can’t [00:24:00] find it.
Cathy: And then you just let them deal with it. And while that can be a really, you’re like, okay, good, you know, done with that, just let the kid deal with it. What does that really mean? That means a kid, like I’ll just go off of my kids because my kids used to have a real big sensitivity to socks when they were little.
Cathy: So we had to use certain kind of socks or else they would refuse to put their shoes on. Okay. So there was like a whole thing there.
Todd: And there’s probably parents out there. They’re like, okay, let the kid. Um, Struggle, Struggle with different types of suffering, which
Cathy: is a whole nother thing because if you have a kid fall apart right before school and not get in the car, you’re not going to be to school on time.
Cathy: You’re also setting the stage for them to have a day where they’re already like so heightened. Plus, you’ve pushed something on them and basically overridden their feelings and their sensitivities and said, no, what’s most important is that you’re going to do what I tell you to do. Yeah. Which is a whole, like, there’s a place in the middle, too many parents read this as permissiveness.
Cathy: This is called a human being in front of you [00:25:00] who is saying, my feet are uncomfortable, and we’re going to say, so what? Suck it up? Because what would happen is when I would put different socks on the girls, they’d be like, okay, this is good. So, Why do I need the, I mean I just wrote a whole book about this, why are we imposing things on our kids just to demonstrate, you know, this domineering, overpowering belief that we, it’s still like stuck in our subconscious, that we’re somehow being taken advantage of if our kids actually have an opinion about something.
Cathy: So, there is that, because there is a just let them deal with it, but really there’s a fallout from all those things. You don’t have your kid’s shirt that they need for Friday at school, you know, they may have like a, we always had a field day or they wore a blue shirt, that’s not ready, that’s a problem.
Cathy: They have a game on Saturday, soccer, and that shirt hasn’t been washed or is not ready or can’t be found, that’s a problem. They can’t find their cleats because it’s in the other car, so what? They forgot them in the car, that’s their fault. Then they can’t play in the game. Then you’re a problem to the whole team.
Cathy: Like there’s this really like [00:26:00] unloading of just let him deal with it. But who deals with that is the person who tends to be with the kids, right? And so that’s really just an unloading that guy, you know, I, I have no animosity toward what he said, but he doesn’t see what happens after that moment. And to him, it’s just easy to say, well, don’t be bothered by it.
Todd: Well, the tricky part is he. Because, let’s, he’s out working, he doesn’t see the fallout as a result of it. So anyways. And
Cathy: that’s by definition what invisible labor means. You don’t see it, so you don’t think it exists.
Todd: Well, and I also want to just have a discussion about what she said in that, is that you are conditioned to take ownership over other people’s happiness.
Todd: Yes. Yes. And I feel. Responsible for taking care of my own happiness. Correct. And, and I think I’m not proud of that. I think I’m something I’m trying to [00:27:00] work through. I think it’s something you’re trying to work through. Like, I’m over here walled off and you’re over here Codependent, I guess, would be a nice way of saying it, right?
Todd: Well,
Cathy: yeah, I’m not, I mean, I can’t take that. On your worst days. Sure, I can be codependent in behaviors. You just have to be careful, Todd, because these are clinical terms. What’s
Todd: another word that we
Cathy: can use? You can say that there are times that I demonstrate codependent behaviors, but I am not.
Cathy: Codependent. I had to like work through that whole thing in therapy, so I will not
Todd: claim it. So there’s times when you demonstrate codependent behavior. Right. And there’s times when I just don’t give a crap over here. Which isn’t you either. Do you see what I mean? Right. I’m just saying on our worst, not our worst, but.
Cathy: In our most unenlightened moments, I can worry more about what everybody else is thinking and try to help them instead of me. So that’s kind of more of a, and here’s the thing, like she said in the quote, Um, or you know, that you played the clip that you played, there is a, an [00:28:00] experience where I am much more to one side, you are to the other.
Cathy: And I totally know that. And you and I have dealt with that throughout our marriage. And to her point, there is a, an ability for you to notice more. And there’s also an ability for me to recognize that I can’t be. The sole holder of everybody’s well being because it won’t work like I can’t and this has been something that’s why I, you know, saying I won’t take that title is because that’s something I’ve been working through for a long time because this isn’t new to me as a woman.
Cathy: When I was young, I wanted to do that with the family, my family of origin. When I was dating someone, I wanted to do that with my boyfriend. When I was, you know, spending all my time with my girlfriends in college, I wanted to do that with them. It’s not just a motherhood thing. There is a feeling of if someone’s upset, like how many of you listening have ever been in a group and one of your friends gets really quiet and you think it’s something you did, right?
Cathy: And most of the time it’s not, but we think everybody’s wellbeing is our responsibility or we caused it.
Todd: So, [00:29:00] so, so I want to like just get into it a little bit more. Why don’t I notice, right? So I’m sometimes not a good noticer of, of things that you need to tune into to. You just need to be present on what’s going on.
Todd: And like last week we did a podcast about how I came in and told one of my daughters to not go out for lunch every day. I did not notice that you and her were having a conversation. I didn’t really care too much at how it was going to land. Like I just kind of came in at like a bulldog in a, like a bowl of china shop.
Todd: Right. So, so I’m really trying to investigate in myself, why is it? that I choose not to notice. And I want to say choice because I do have a choice to notice.
Cathy: You haven’t been socialized to notice.
Todd: And why is that? And it’s because I feel like I’ve been rewarded by attainment, by paychecks, by all these other things.
Todd: And, and, and I [00:30:00] think I’m really good at that. at that part of it, right? Well, I’m not really good at the emotional stuff. She said in her, in the interview a little bit, like how sometimes guys will be like, well, I’m just not a good micromanager. So my wife is better at it. And she said something like, okay, say you had a boss, um, who’s asking you to micromanage and you just say, oh, you know, I’m not that good at that.
Todd: So you do that. So you do that. Like that’s, you would never say that. It’s just a cop out.
Cathy: Yeah, like there’s been a few stories you and I have been kind of laughing about. Another one happened to be from Glennon, but it wasn’t from this week, it was a different podcast where she said that she one time overheard her ex husband Craig say, you know, I’m just lucky to be partnered with Glennon because she doesn’t need as much sleep, so she gets up with the kids.
Cathy: Okay. So, and Glennon was like, what? And then you and I have a story that we’ve told on here a number of times where you felt that you needed food hot and I was okay eating it cold. Yes. And so you needed to eat first and then I would eat second or not eat while I was there so I’d take care of the kids.
Cathy: That’s a, that’s a total, that’s made up. Like what makes you think you need hot food and [00:31:00] I need cold food? And then the whole idea, like you said, that women are just better at this versus women have learned how to do it.
Todd: Yes. And I want to say when we’re born. As human beings,
Cathy: all of it’s available to have the same capacity.
Todd: Correct. And then we get lied to as men, as boys, and then we get lied to as men and what it means to be a man. I have every capacity to hold the space to be just as empathic as you do. I think I have less practice at it because I have chosen to divert my energy in a different direction. And, and one thing that we haven’t talked about yet is, let’s just say I’m the typical guy, and I’m really good at all the other stuff, like dentist appointments, and, you know, working outside the house, Kathy works full time, she’s a writer, she’s a teacher at a university, like, she does all that stuff, but I have been doing, so, You’ve been more the breadwinner.
Todd: Yeah, and I and I’m just over it. So that’s what I’m good at so I’m just gonna keep doing that and [00:32:00] Ignore my capacity over here and I just want to like state very clearly. I have every Capacity to be as empathic as you but most of the time I don’t do it. Why if I’m being honest Why don’t I do it one is because you’re always there doing it And, and you, you, you let me off the hook, right?
Todd: Because you’re always sitting in the chair in the middle of the house. And when the girls come in, they have somebody to talk
Cathy: to, so I don’t
Todd: have to do that. So I think that’s one reason, um, there’s, there’s the lie that I say is, well, you’re just better at it, which is a lie. You’re more practiced at it.
Todd: I’m more practiced
Cathy: at it. Yeah.
Todd: And I just don’t prioritize it. Like, I’m just trying to be brutally honest with myself. I, I, I would rather spend time on my computer if I know that you’re over here doing this better than I am anyway. So why would I even want to go over there and do that?
Cathy: Well, let me, let me go way back to childhood.
Cathy: Um, so when you would have a family dinner, uh, who did the [00:33:00] dishes?
Todd: Uh, jeez, I mean Uh, my, my mom and my grandma. And what did you cook? I don’t know. Um, whatever, I did, what did you cook? Did I cook for my family? No.
Cathy: Okay. When the meal was over, did your dad have a tendency to then go sit down and they cleaned up the kitchen?
Todd: Um, there’s plenty of moments of that. And there was always a all hands on deck with the exception of my dad.
Cathy: Okay. So in a way there was like a kids are going to do this, but the man of the house didn’t do it. Okay. Also, did you babysit?
Todd: Um,
Cathy: yeah,
Todd: I babysat.
Cathy: Like ongoing? Like you had a job?
Todd: Uh, no, it was just neighborhood kids and all that stuff.
Todd: Okay,
Cathy: so you did do that. Yeah. Did you ever, like, consider nannying or anything like that or taking care of people? Did you ever consider going into a helping profession? No. Did anyone suggest you go into a helping profession? Not once. Okay, so, you know, I remember when my mom was in college, the choices, she would tell me this, the choices were [00:34:00] teaching or nursing, right?
Cathy: And so that’s not. Too far away from and, and again, there are women her age who did lots of other things. I’m not saying it wasn’t possible. Everybody. I’m not saying she didn’t have any other choices, but she felt from her upbringing in central Illinois and then north, uh, west Illinois, that those were the expectations as you go teaching or you go nursing, right?
Cathy: She or secretary. And so she became a teacher. Um, and there are lots of women who did other things, but it was rare. You know, um, and so we’re not that far removed from a time when women didn’t have a lot of options. They were being pushed toward caregiving professions. They were in charge of cooking. They were in charge of cleaning.
Cathy: They weren’t, you know, there wasn’t a lot of expectation. So you didn’t see this role model. So some of it you did and you did do some babysitting and caregiving like it’s not we don’t have to be a hundred percent right No, but I
Todd: was not that was not my center of gravity
Cathy: right at all And so you can understand for men they’d be like why are you asking me to do something?
Cathy: I’ve never done [00:35:00] and the whole this is the big conversation if there are couples listening to this Is that it’s it’s It’s to create a different system in your house. It’s to role model something different for your kids. It’s to allow your sons, if you do have sons, um, to see a different, different pathways and choices.
Cathy: Right. Like, as I’ve said a number of times on this show, I teach, um, in this, uh, I teach in the sociology department, but I teach, teach social work classes. And my class is 98 percent women. I always have a few guys, you know, like one or two, sometimes three, sometimes it’s a miracle. But why are men not going into social work?
Cathy: Right?
Todd: Yeah, because it’s not a cool. No, we need them desperately. I
Cathy: know we need more male therapists. They call
Todd: them pink jobs. We
Cathy: need more male teachers.
Todd: Hundreds of thousands of young men right now who say they can’t find a job because the robots are taken over. There’s less manual labor, uh, manufacturing, yet there is this [00:36:00] open gap of teachers, preschool teachers, nursing, all these wonderful jobs and these young men or middle aged men or whatever aren’t even going to consider it because that’s not what we do.
Cathy: Correct. And, and, and then when you look at those jobs, those caregiving jobs, they’re paid less. And so we say, well, men don’t want to do that because they’re paid less. But why are they paid less? Because women are in them, right? Like, and again, chicken and the egg, you know what I mean? Like, but what runs our country?
Cathy: The caregiving jobs. What, you know, what do we really need in this country? If we’re going to keep going forward, taking care of the elderly, teaching children and taking care of children. Obviously a lot more things to fill in those gaps. I know there’s a lot, but. These are things that we absolutely need that are essential, but we don’t prioritize and we also don’t pay a lot.
Cathy: And we also think that men can’t do them. I mean, come on. And so the only reason I’m bringing up all these things and I’m getting into the more sociological or societal aspects is [00:37:00] because you keep asking why, why, why, and there are reasons, but my pushback is that As you already said, you’re already saying this, you can do these things, you just haven’t learned and there are, or you haven’t shifted your thinking to understanding it could be just as much your responsibility because that conversation that you just had about how you’re like, you know, I’m focused on my job and you know, that’s where I put all my energy and if I, you know, do more caretaking or, or housework or whatever it may be, it takes away from my job.
Cathy: Sure. And that goes the other way for me is if I am the primary caretaker and I’m doing that all the time, I don’t get to do my job. So I lose, you lose. And instead of like, how do we have this conversation? So we’re both doing it. And not only, and again, I’m going to say this to the men who are listening or pass this on to the men in your lives.
Cathy: You guys lose because you don’t know your kids. Yeah. And there’s a lot of like they grow up and they’re like, well, I want to, [00:38:00] you know, they call from college and they’re like, you know, give the phone to mom because they don’t know you. I mean, of course they know you, but they don’t
Todd: know you. So what I lose is connection from my children and what you lose is opportunity to do what it is that you showed up to do.
Todd: And some of what you showed up to do is to be a mom. And you also had all these other things that you had to concede as a result of. The dance that you and I chose to dance. The dance.
Cathy: And we continued to dance. And I had my kind of, um, breakdown about that around 50. Um, where I had the realization of, you know, two decades of time where I was doing what I chose to do, which was being the primary caregiver.
Cathy: And it’s not about having regret. It’s about recognizing that that window of career was gone. And again, some may say, well, what are you talking about? You taught and you did this and you did that. But I did what I could. Yeah. It could have been a lot different. Yeah. It could have been a lot different.
Cathy: There were things that I didn’t pursue or that I passed up because I couldn’t, you know, things, you know, travel [00:39:00] experiences where I’m like, I’m not, I’m not Doing that. I can’t be away from my kid in that way. And so, and that’s okay. That’s the thing about nuance or paradox is that you have to realize there is no absolute in this conversation.
Cathy: I don’t need to win and Todd doesn’t need to win. We just need to be able to put all this stuff on the table and he, and have a conversation because he can say to me, Kathy, you’re way too invested in the kid’s emotions. And he’s right. And I can also say to him, I feel overly invested in their emotions because you’re not noticing their emotions.
Cathy: You’ve
Todd: got to counterbalance my lack.
Cathy: Correct. If you show up more. in that emotional space, I will be able to back off. But if you’re, okay, so let me give an example with our own kids. A lot of parents say, well, my kid gets really worked up or sometimes they even lie to me. Okay. Or sometimes they just yell to get their point across.
Cathy: Why do kids do this? Why do kids really yell, exaggerate, or lie? Because a lot of times they don’t feel like they’re being heard. Okay. So they go to extremes because they’re like, if I don’t take this to the extreme, no one’s [00:40:00] going to believe me, listen to me, stop what they’re doing. You know, really hear what I have to say, you know?
Cathy: And so they like take it to this level where nobody has a choice. That’s very similar in a relationship is if nobody’s doing anything, if nobody’s noticing anything, then sometimes the partner who feels in charge of that, I’ll just say myself like as the woman, I take it to an extreme because I’m like, this is all on me.
Cathy: I am frontline of defense. Todd keeps telling me it’s no big deal. I know it is. So I have to go like full, you know, to your bringing up codependency, full overwhelming concern because I have to prove to him, not in a conscious way, but I have to demonstrate to him that this is a thing. And, and if, and if you were like, dude, this is a thing, and I’m like, I know this is a thing, then I wouldn’t have to go so hard at it.
Cathy: Because I would feel a little more like, we’re doing this together, he’s noticing, I’m noticing, and, and honestly, Todd, and again, this is just the nature of us doing this show so long and our girls being older, I don’t feel [00:41:00] this way right now.
Todd: No, we, it’s because we’ve been working, first of all, I still screw up, So do I.
Todd: Um, but we’ve been working on this for 20 years. So. And screw up means real world things, right? Right. It’s not like a bad day and you shut down or you overcompensate. Like we all do that. Right. Um, but yeah, it’s, and that’s the thing. All we want to do in this podcast is create, be a vehicle of conversation between Two people that are trying to raise a family.
Cathy: Be a, be a people who, um, what’s the word? Because you said be a vehicle. We’re not the vehicle. We
Todd: are. I want them to listen to this podcast so they can say, Hey Todd, I like what Todd just said. A catalyst. Yeah. Of conversation. And if you can have it without this, Podcast, great. Right. I have it. But I just, these, sometimes these discussions are intense and I get defensive quite often.
Todd: Right. Whenever Kathy’s like, well, why’d you do this? You know, you just came in like a bull in a china shop with that thing, you know. Such a bummer. It’s such a [00:42:00] bummer. Um, so yeah.
Cathy: And then, and also that realization that, Sometimes you do come in that way and meaning like I may cut, you know, the, the language Todd and I tend to use is sometimes when we’re emotional, our faucets on too strong, you know, like I sometimes, especially talking about things like politics or whatever, my faucet can come on too strong because I’m very funny.
Cathy: Passionate about it. And I read a lot about it and I know the importance of, especially this upcoming election and what a weekend, right, Pad? What a weekend. We are having a shift in
Todd: July 22nd and Biden just bowed out of the race. And
Cathy: I love Joe. I like have nothing but love for that man. And I’m also like.
Cathy: everybody, let’s go. Okay? So I just wanted to throw that in. Um, so I, I kind of feel like we, sometimes it’s too strong and, and to have our partners say, you know, ouch, or that was too strong or you’re hooting, you’re hurting my feelings more than you’re like [00:43:00] offering me new information. And, and we, the thing is, is we, We have to get a little more comfortable with the discomfort of a messy conversation.
Cathy: I wrote about this last week in my Zen Parenting Moment. Like, I talked about how there’s two different kinds of messy conversations that I hear about. The messy conversations that teens tell me about, where they’re literally slamming doors, Parents are yelling. They’re yelling. They’re swearing at each other.
Cathy: They’re not talking to each other for a few days. There’s passive aggressive behavior. That’s messy, right? There’s another kind of messy conversation, which is let’s talk about really hard things.
Yeah.
Cathy: And let’s all try and take ownership and be honest about how we’re feeling. Let’s be willing to back away from it for five minutes if we need to and go back in.
Cathy: Let’s be willing to have it be unpredictable. Let’s be willing to have our minds changed. That’s messy because it’s uncertain.
Todd: Yeah. But that’s
Cathy: a healthy kind of messy. Yeah. So
Todd: the first messy that you described is an unconscious version of that. What do I mean by unconscious? Super reactive. Yes. Nobody’s investigating.
Todd: Nobody’s curious. Nobody’s present. Everybody’s blaming. [00:44:00] Yeah. And then the other messy is a intense but. constructive, productive, responsive, conscious conversation. It’s a creative. About something that’s important.
Cathy: Yes.
Todd: And they’re using their ability to take responsibility and they’re looking at it through the other person’s eyes and they’re, um, they’re breathing.
Todd: They notice their breath. They, there’s just so many ways of having. Productive, messy conversations.
Cathy: Yeah. And that’s, and I actually put pictures, um, I had AI make those pictures, by the way, I don’t know if you noticed. I did notice that. So, the first picture was the word messy, and it looked like the upside down in Stranger Things.
Cathy: Yeah. It was just dark and black and there was just no visual. Light, anywhere, and it just said messy. And then I put in AI, um, in the other picture, I put the word messy, but light, green, growing, grass. And so you still have the word messy, which is uncomfortable, but everything around it is lit up. There’s [00:45:00] new plants growing.
Cathy: There’s flowers that are growing because a messy conversation allows for growth. Yeah. And you, what we do though is we either go, we, we have a hard time with that because we either go to the extremes or we’re like, Oh, that’ll be too messy. It’ll be too dark and too scary versus if you don’t have any conversation at all, that’s dark and scary
Todd: too.
Todd: Yeah. Like the first messy is like a destructive messy. Yeah. And the second messy is a growth oriented messy.
Cathy: And what is the goal of the second messy, which is the one where we’re having a conversation where we’re being honest and supporting each other, is treating each other with dignity and treating ourselves with dignity.
Cathy: I, I mean, sometimes we get into a conversation where we’re like, okay, I’m going to, you know, have respect for this person, treat them with dignity. And they’ll say something that is unkind to us. And I can say that’s. That hurts me. Like you still, you don’t get to go, yeah, you’re right. I suck. Like there have been so many conversations I’ve had.
Cathy: I have a lot of messy conversations in my life. And a lot of times when I start talking, you and I actually talked about this, Todd, where, [00:46:00] and you don’t do it that much, but I had to have a conversation last week. And you were like, Sometimes when I go in and I say, this is what happened, people will go, yeah, I suck.
Cathy: You’re right. I’m the worst.
Todd: Yeah. I said, it’s not worth it. Why do I?
Cathy: Oh, it was you. You said it’s not worth it. What were we talking
Todd: about? I don’t know. I was sitting right here. You were sitting right there. I’m like, it’s just not even worth it.
Cathy: It was about Cameron and the food.
Todd: Oh
Cathy: yeah. Uh huh. We had a huge conversation after.
Todd: Why even, why even bring it up? It’s just, let’s just, let’s Go back the way it was.
Cathy: And I said, I want to have this conversation, not to win it. I want to find a way. Cause you kept saying everyone else’s needs are being met except mine. I said, well, then what are your needs? And then you said, there’s no point.
Cathy: And I’m like, well, that’s not fair. I’m asking for your needs. And I actually suggested a few things like, um, you know, cause Todd was concerned about money and how much the girls were spending on food. I said, why don’t we Venmo them a certain amount of money at the beginning of the week?
Todd: You’re trying to get creative with a solution.
Todd: Yeah. And I was just like, [00:47:00] I, you know, I was like feeling mad and uncomfortable and I’m like forget I said, forget I said anything and that’s a disconnecting thing to say in a conversation where you’re trying to figure something out.
Cathy: Well, and I think one of the other pieces is, and this may not be a gender specific thing at all, um, is if I’m going to make a decision, especially if it’s in my marriage or with my parenting or or with work, I guess, with anything, it’s I’ve thought through why, right?
Cathy: And I’ve looked at this is what could happen. These are all my reasons why I think this is the right time. And so one of my things to you, which I think Probably felt intense was I said, why did not, why did you do that? Not like that, but like, tell me what you’re thinking underneath
it,
Cathy: right? Because if you have a good motivation and it’s something I’m not seeing, I will align with you because I don’t know if I’m missing something.
Cathy: Like, are we really going broke here when it comes to food? And I don’t think you had thought through it. You were just going and forgive me if that’s not true. You may have thought through it.
Todd: No, there wasn’t much thought going on.
Cathy: But you just got [00:48:00] lost in your old pattern of don’t spend money. And it felt so old.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: Instead of like, is that really something you’re worried about or are you trying to like wrestle some control?
Todd: It was all of the above. All of the above. It was control, it’s let’s make sure we’re not raising spoiled kids, it was let’s make sure that these kids work hard, and it was all roped up into quit buying lunch at restaurants for lunch.
Todd: Yeah. Yeah.
Cathy: And those are hard conversations because a lot of things Todd just said, they’re not wrong. And they’re, they’re worthy discussions. It’s just, how are we as a couple going to do it versus, did you see that fly?
Todd: Yeah. Right
Cathy: in front of the camera. Um, they’re so, they just got my number. Um, but
Todd: the flies always have, they
Cathy: always have my number and I let them, I basically give them my number.
Todd: You give them power.
Cathy: I like write down my number and I hand it to the fly.
Todd: You, um, I don’t like flies, but I’m like, whatever, but you really don’t like flies.
Cathy: I, here’s why I don’t like flies. There’s a few reasons.
Todd: Yeah. Let’s, [00:49:00] let’s, let’s outline them.
Cathy: Number one, I have experiences when I was young, windows open or camping.
Cathy: I know you’re gonna be like, you didn’t camp. I camped a lot with my friends when I was young, backyards. A lot of my friends had farms outside, all that kind of stuff. And you’d be trying to sleep and a fly would go by your ear and just bug you all night. And And yes, I’m using the word bug, right? Where you’re like, this is like anxiety provoking.
Cathy: Then there’s also, that happens also all the time still, right? You know, when there’s a fly in our bedroom at night, I don’t go to bed till I get it. I know. The other part is just flies. They’re just kind of gross. They’re like. Flies are awesome. They like gross things and they like the garbage and they like the smell.
Cathy: Who doesn’t like poop? And they like, roast stuff.
Todd: Who doesn’t like garbage? Who doesn’t like poop? And
Cathy: they lay their eggs there, and I, I understand, there’s a great part in, in Wanderlust, or the movie we like with Jennifer Aniston and Paul Rudd, where they get really mad at him cause he swats at a fly.
Cathy: Yeah. They’re like, first it’s a fly, then it’s a animal, then it’s a person. Yeah. And I don’t want to be that person. I just don’t. I also, sometimes the flies land on the door and I let them out. [00:50:00] I see them out. I’m like, goodbye.
Todd: Um, I want to close the show, but I got one more quick. No more flies. No more flies.
Todd: Okay. One thing I thought was interesting about this podcast and I think Glennon said it. She said, let me see if I can find it. Um, working mothers today spend more hours. Taking care of their children than stay at home moms in the 70s.
Cathy: Amanda said it.
Todd: Was it Amanda? Yep. Um, so just let that settle in. I’m going to say it again.
Todd: Working moms today spend more hours with their, the quote was on childcare. I don’t really know. I was, when I think of childcare, I think of like, you know, farming it out. Like we have to go get childcare, but spend more hours on childcare than stay at home moms in the 70s.
Cathy: They just mean being with their kids.
Cathy: Yes.
Todd: Being with their kids. So
Cathy: basically stay at home moms would, a lot of times, you know, and again. We’re just taking a general snapshot, is a kid would go to school, they’d walk themselves to school, they’d get on the bus, they’d be at school all day, they’d play with their friends, they’d come home, they’d go back out, they, it was a very, [00:51:00] they weren’t around.
Cathy: Or on the weekends, they were gone all day until, you know, the street lights came on. We’ve all heard this from Gen Xers. But it was true. Parents were not monitoring play dates. Parents were not setting up play dates. And again, we don’t need to go back to that time. There’s this big flippant belief of that it should go back to that.
Cathy: We’re not there. We’re in a different time now, but there should be an understanding of the amount of work we’re putting in when it comes to being with our kids. And there is, we have to have a conscious balance there as well. That we are not there. They’re constant playmates. That it’s okay to have time alone.
Cathy: That it’s good to go on dates. That it’s okay to let your kid have some time by themselves and get lonely or bored. Like, these are experiences they need to have as long as you are available to talk about it and not tell them why they’re not really feeling it.
Todd: Yeah. Because
Cathy: they
Todd: are. I just thought that was wonderful.
Todd: Um, in closing, You said you might want to do a men living open to all genders discussion on this. Do you still want to do that?
Cathy: I wanted to do it on noticing because that was a question you had [00:52:00] is why? I think it should be
Todd: called noticing or what can I do to help? What can I do to help? encapsulates this conversation.
Todd: Yeah. Do you still want to do that?
Cathy: Sure.
Todd: Okay. Let’s do it. We’re gonna do it, um, on Monday, August 26th.
Cathy: Oh, okay. Then I better get a thing written up.
Todd: We got a month. We got a month. Okay. So if you’re listening to this, go to benlimbing. org, search, uh, Get on the calendar. It’s for August 4th.
Cathy: For all genders.
Cathy: Meaning like, you know, come as a couple or, you know, it’s going to be sponsored by men living in Team Zen.
Todd: Team Zen. That’s right. Team Zen. Um, sweetie, you want to, I’ll talk about Team Zen real quick. I have a little thing. A thing with a thing. A thing with a thing. I can’t find it. Okay. Team Zen
Cathy: is our virtual community.
Cathy: We have talks every month. I have a women’s group that I run tied. Todd has a finance group, there’s a separation and divorce group, there’s And then plus we just have a great app on our phone where people can ask questions and it’s just a really, uh, good, warm, comforting place to be among other parents who are doing their best to know [00:53:00] themselves and know their kids and if you like this show, you’re gonna like this community.
Cathy: So join us. Would
Todd: love to see you join us. Um, and then I think that’s it. I’m just gonna play our outro music and then we’ll be good to go. Keep track, keep track.
