Todd and Cathy emphasize the importance of being present, thinking critically, and doing in parenting, and discussed the concept of human archetypes and the need to focus on the present moment. They also shared personal anecdotes about balancing ‘being’, ‘doing’, and ‘thinking’, and discussed the challenges of societal expectations and the importance of living authentically. Lastly, they addressed underlying issues in relationships, the importance of taking action, and the need to process emotions healthily.

For the full show notes, visit zenparentingradio.com.

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Time Stamps

(00:00:28) Sign up for Cathy’s Substack– Being, thinking, and doing

(00:06:22) Todd’s “Be, Think, Do Balance”

(00:14:58) Todd’s “Be’er” shows up

(00:27:22) Cathy’s “Be, Think, Do Balance”

(00:57:32) The spiritual bypass **

(00:59:41) Comparing pain

(01:00:55) We are a hedonistic society that believes we should be suffering.

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Blog Post

Balancing Presence, Thought, and Action in Parenting: Insights from Zen Parenting Radio Episode 773

In this episode, hosts Todd and Cathy Adams explore the delicate balance between being, thinking, and doing, particularly in the context of parenting. As they delve into their conversation, they share personal anecdotes, philosophical insights, and practical advice on how parents can navigate these three essential aspects of life. Let’s dive into the key takeaways.

Introduction to the Episode

Todd and Cathy open the episode with a hearty welcome, reminding listeners why they tune in to Zen Parenting Radio: “Because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is that the very best predictor of a child’s well-being is, in fact, a parent’s self-understanding.” This sets the tone for an episode focused on self-awareness and balance.

The Inspiration Behind the Topic

Cathy reveals that the inspiration for this episode came to her in quite an everyday scenario: while she was in the shower. This common moment led her to distinguish between three critical modes of existence: being, thinking, and doing. She explains that each mode is interconnected and vital for a balanced life, especially as a parent.

Being

Being is described as being present, mindful, and conscious. It’s about being aware of one’s energy and surroundings. Cathy emphasizes the importance of understanding ourselves in any given moment — a state of mindfulness that parents often struggle to maintain in the hustle and bustle of family life.

Thinking

Thinking, on the other hand, involves analysis and the intellectual process of understanding not just facts, but also the humility to learn and grow. Cathy underlines that while being and thinking are different modes, they heavily influence each other and ultimately impact our actions.

Doing

Doing is the product of both being and thinking. It is the manifestation of our thoughts and presence in the actions we take. In parenting, Cathy points out, our “doing” is often driven by a need to keep up with societal expectations, which can lead to autopilot behaviors that may not always serve the best interest of our well-being or that of our children.

Practical Applications

Todd and Cathy transition into practical applications by inviting listeners to consider where their “center of gravity” lies among being, thinking, and doing. They argue that self-awareness in this balance is crucial for better parenting. Here are some standout moments from their discussion:

  • Todd’s Realization: Todd admits that he spends most of his time “doing,” which resonates with many parents who find themselves constantly on the move, often at the expense of being and thinking.
  • Cathy’s Insight: Cathy appreciates the value of being and thinking, suggesting a ratio of 40% doing, 30% thinking, and 30% being for herself. This balance allows her to stay grounded while navigating the complexities of parenting and life.

Quotes to Reflect On

The episode features several profound quotes that provide deeper reflection on these three modes:

  • Lao Tzu: “Knowing others is intelligence; knowing yourself is true wisdom. Mastering others is strength; mastering yourself is true power.”
  • Ralph Waldo Emerson: “To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment.”
  • Soren Kierkegaard: “Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards.”
  • William James: “A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.”

These quotes underscore the importance of self-awareness and being true to oneself amidst external pressures.

A Personal Touch

Todd shares a personal anecdote about a moment of being with his daughter, where he chose to simply sit next to her rather than continuing his busy routine. This small action led to an unexpected but beautiful moment of connection, emphasizing the power of presence in parenting.

Cathy also shares her approach to balancing work and family life. She often situates herself in common areas of their home to remain accessible to her children, prioritizing relationships and connections over productivity.

Reflecting on Balance

To wrap up, Todd and Cathy encourage parents to evaluate their own lives and the balance between being, thinking, and doing. They suggest practical steps such as journaling thoughts, being present with children, and not getting caught up in societal expectations.

Conclusion

In this insightful episode of Zen Parenting Radio, Todd and Cathy Adams offer valuable perspectives on balancing presence, thought, and action. Through personal stories, philosophical insights, and practical advice, they remind us that true self-understanding is the foundation of effective parenting. By striving for a balanced approach, we can better connect with our children and ourselves.

Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 773. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is that the very best predictor of a child’s well being is in fact a parent’s self understanding.

Todd: On today’s show, we are going to discuss, uh, a sub stack. Bless you, baby. Thank you. A sub stack that you wrote on Friday, uh, talking about being, thinking, and doing. Yes. And it’s going to be off the hook. So I say we just jump right in. Okay. All right. So, um, what was the inspiration for this one? 

Cathy: Oh, I was in the shower and I thought of it.

Todd: That was it. Most of your inspiration does come in the shower, doesn’t it? 

Cathy: Yeah, and [00:01:00] when I say I thought of it, it’s not like it’s a new concept. Um, but what I mean is that I was thinking about We are either, so we’re like basically moving between, and I’m simplifying something that’s a lot more challenging, but we’re either being, which is we’re like in ourselves, we’re conscious of our energy, we’re aware of where we are in time and space, we like, you know, know we’re being, you know, like we’re here right now, which we’re somewhat present or mindful.

Cathy: Or we’re thinking, which is the process of thinking and knowing that not everything we think is true and analyzing and that’s where we get all of our information and hopefully with thinking we have an ability to have humility and learn also. And then the last thing is doing, which is obviously a product of our being and our thinking.

Cathy: And um, I was trying to be cute with the way I wrote it. I wrote it very quickly, so I’m not quite sure. Translate it. I was like, in my head, I was like, this is so great. Um, but doing, [00:02:00] you’re hoping that whatever you’re doing is because you are in touch with your being and you’re conscious of your thinking, and then you act from that place.

Cathy: And I said, what’s interesting is a lot of people, when they’re doing, aren’t even aren’t at all connected to being and thinking and they’re just like doom scrolling or living on autopilot and they’re doing is to avoid being and thinking. 

Yeah. Do 

Cathy: you know what I mean? I do. So that’s where what I mean I was trying to get cute.

Cathy: I was and then also with our thoughts, you know, sometimes being in our thoughts keeps us from being. Yeah. And sometimes we Being in our thoughts keeps us from doing because we talk a lot about who we are and, oh, I’m this or I’m that, but we’re really not doing that. So it’s like, I can’t remember what my last sentence was, but the goal was, you know, being and thinking and doing are all necessary and disparaging any of them as a waste of time because all three of them are us.

Todd: So these are the directions I want to, I might want to go in today. 

Cathy: Okay. Sorry. I’m, [00:03:00] I’m still sneezy for some reason. 

Todd: Sneezy. Oh, by the way, this is, I can’t find it, but, um, I’m not on social media at all, but the closest I think to do, uh, the closest thing I have to social media is YouTube. 

Uh huh. And I 

Todd: watch YouTube shorts.

Uh huh. 

Todd: And there was something showed up in my feed and it’s the, who’s the guy that does family feud now? Steve Harvey? Steve Harvey. And the two guys are up at the front, you know, they go up to the front. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At the beginning. And they’re doing the, yeah. They put their hand on the buzzer. And Steve Harvey’s question is like, which of the, I just thought it’s because you were sneezing, which of the seven dwarves would best describe your wife in the bedroom or something like that?

Todd: Someone that’s sneezy? They both looked at each other and refused to answer. Oh my gosh. Which is hilarious because you can only get in trouble. Wouldn’t you just say happy? Yeah, I guess so. But the other six, I guess they, if they both said happy, that would probably be good. You don’t want to say dopey. You don’t want to say dopey.

Todd: You don’t want to say sleepy. You could say doc. You don’t want to say, you could say doc, I guess. [00:04:00] Um, Sneezy, who’s the, uh, Dopey. Well, let’s do, there’s, there’s seven. 

Cathy: Dopey, Sneezy, Bashful. Bashful. Doc. Grumpy. Grumpy. Yeah. Don’t want to be that. Yeah. Happy. Yeah. And, did we already say it? I think we did them all.

Cathy: Yeah, I think we did. So anyways, 

Todd: it was just funny that these two guys refused to answer it. It’s almost like it was staged. It was so funny. Yeah, it might have been. Um, so what I want to do maybe today is invite the listeners and invite you and I as we’re talking here, what our center of gravity is between being, doing, and thinking.

Todd: And what I mean by center of gravity is where do you spend most of your time? 

Okay. 

Todd: Okay. So maybe we’ll get there. The other thing is I, I pulled up a few quotes. I just asked you at GPT, give me, uh, Three or four quotes on being, doing, and thinking. And I think it’d be fun for us to riff off of some of those because they’re from really smart people like Ralph Waldo Emerson and Amelia Earhart.

Todd: Anyways. Where is she? Where’s Amelia Earhart? I don’t know. What [00:05:00] happened to her? I don’t think any of us know. And then the last is there is an intersect of being, doing, and thinking with something I use when I coach guys of the archetypes. Sure. It’s. Sometimes people describe it as the four male archetypes, but as far as I can tell, it’s four human archetypes.

Todd: It really has little to do with male. Sweetie, 

Cathy: most meaning in our culture is based on the male experience. Correct. So, most of it could be applied to women, but it wasn’t built for women, so therefore we have to jimmy ourselves into your system. 

Todd: Exactly. So there’s a book out there called King, Warrior, Magician, Lover.

Todd: And obviously King is male. So what I’ve been taught by some of my mentors is don’t say King, say Sovereign. Because there’s Queen, Queen Elizabeth, right? Sure. Um, so, but there is a lot of overlap between being, doing, and thinking. So of what I just shared with you, so those are your three on ramps that you can go down, sweetie.

Todd: You want to go quotes? Do you want to go, uh, archetypes? I don’t want to do the 

Cathy: archetypes because I will do it, but I don’t want to do that first because that’s, that’s, [00:06:00] that’s more men living talk. 

Todd: Right. And, and I’m with you. I don’t want to start with that either, but I think People will get some value out of it regardless if it’s men living.

Todd: Yeah, 

Cathy: I totally get it. 

Todd: Because it’s really the exact same thing of what you’re talking about with one exception. Okay. So let’s, how about we do center of gravity? Okay. All right. Being, doing, and thinking. I haven’t really thought much about this, but I can tell you, it’s funny, I haven’t thought much about this.

Todd: I am, my center of gravity, so I think of like a hundred percent, I would say, 82 percent is doing. Yeah, 

Cathy: for sure. That’s why when you’re like, I haven’t thought about this, I’m like, do you need to think super deep? I would 

Todd: say, um, 15 percent and I bet I might be being overly harsh on myself. 15 percent is thinking.

Todd: So that would be 97 and 3 percent is being. 

Cathy: Okay, 

Todd: that’s and it’s probably not true. But when I think of being I [00:07:00] think of 

Cathy: You don’t have to be like in a meditative state It’s more just about do you are you aware of where you are and what you’re doing? Are you in the present moment and I don’t mean that in a you don’t have to be doing yoga or or meditation We make it to We make it to like A plan you need to get to, and in some ways I want to maybe push back that when people do that, you’re in thinking, because you’re trying to get there.

Todd: So right now we’re recording about a podcast, we’re, we’re recording a podcast, that’s doing, but I’m also using my beautiful brain to think about what it is I want to say next. Am I present? Am I present? I think I go in and out of presence as you and I are going to talk for the next 45 minutes or so. So like, even within one moment, there’s probably elements of all three, unless we just switch back and forth, back and forth.

Todd: Well, I 

Cathy: actually have a sentence in there where I say the record, what you have to recognize is you’re going back and forth between them in a matter of seconds, sometimes minutes, maybe an hour. Like some people do [00:08:00] get stuck in a thinking process. Some people are a lot more cerebral, you know, fives on the Enneagram.

Cathy: They’re Big, deep thinkers all the time and they can get really stuck in that. But the truth is, they’re, the whole point is I think we sometimes demonize one, one of them or the other. We’re like, this person is always moving, they’re doing too much. Or we say, wow, this person’s so stuck in their head. Or we say, oh, that person is always worried about being meditative or they’re always like lost in, you know, their imagination and, or they’re lost in their like need to be spiritual and we like make one of them bad.

That’s 

Cathy: And, and they all are working in unison constantly. And so the, it’s less about, I, I don’t mind this conversation about percentages because that makes sense to me. But. 

Todd: My thinker wants the percentage. I 

Cathy: know you do. And you’re trying to box these in as separate things. And they’re really not separate.

Cathy: They’re all like interconnected because that’s kind of what I mean about, you know, The ideal situation with the doing is that what you do on an everyday basis is because of who you are, [00:09:00] which is your being and your consciousness of yourself. Then you’re thinking about, what does that sound? 

Todd: It’s the blender.

Cathy: Okay. Thank you. I’m like hearing the sound. I’m like, is that wind? Um, and then it’s, then you’re thinking about how do I take who I am and show up in the world. So I’m thinking about the things I say, I’m thinking about the things I want to do and then our doing should be a product of those things. What’s unfortunate is a lot of times our doing becomes center stage and we don’t really know why we’re doing what we’re doing.

Cathy: We’re just keeping up with the Joneses. Like for example, can I read something to you? I sent something to my daughter today because I knew that she, I sent it to everybody, but I knew she would like it the best. And I think I found it on the sisters, uh, the sister project, uh, Instagram page. It was from a book, um, that they were tagged, but this is all it says.

Cathy: It’s, it’s not really poetry, but it’s like a one page essay. It says none of it is real. The societal timelines, the [00:10:00] expectations, the rules we follow that were set for us by strangers who do not know us and do not know our lives. It’s all made up. And yet we let it destroy us. Achieve this by that age. Get there by this time.

Cathy: It’s bullshit. It was created and contrived. Fabricated as an invisible yardstick. And we let it pull us around like a rope around our necks. Let it go. I give you permission to let it all go. Observe how much freer you are. And how much less of a failure you feel. You haven’t failed when none of this is real.

Cathy: And I think a lot of people who are doing are stuck in, there’s somewhere I gotta get. There’s a place I gotta get to. There is something I have to get done. There’s a way I have to prove myself. And they’re not, and their thoughts may be helping them with that. But they’re so out of touch with their being.

Cathy: Does that make sense? 

Todd: It does. And I might go down a little tangent here. Sure. Bear with me. So, I, I think I was making smoothies yesterday and I just pulled up my YouTube and I saw [00:11:00] Jeff Foster. Jeff Foster’s an author. I think he wrote a book called Daily Awakening or Radical Acceptance, something or other.

Todd: And he, he was one of, he was a really powerful teacher for me. And he presented himself for many, many years as a non duality person. Okay. All oneness. Think all like, I don’t know, woo ish, ego 

Cathy: ish, ego less, woe ego, and 

Todd: all that. Thank you. And he said, he was calling himself out and other teachers that you and I have probably been inspired by, um, and he’s like, that is such a, uh, even the idea of I’m this and you’re that, I’m not you, I’m special, I’m one, you’re not, and if you follow me then I’m going to be this and I’m better than you, like, even that is dogmatic, right?

Todd: Um, so. He looks different now, he had some illness, and it was, it was a 15 minute clip. Lyme disease. Was that what it was? Mm hmm. And it was a really beautiful, a thing, he’s like, I am [00:12:00] now, look at how I used to teach about non duality, and I kind of laugh at myself. He’s like, of course we are all one, and at the same time, we are human beings, and we get messy, and we have an ego, and the human experience, and what, what made me think of that?

Todd: is, I think your quote is really good that you just shared and important. And at the same time, there was a line in there that says, none of this is real. That’s true. And we do have things that we need to worry about. I 

Cathy: know, but we’re, she’s not saying that she’s saying what’s not real is the fake yardstick that people are following.

Cathy: She’s not saying life isn’t real. She’s not saying this world isn’t real. She’s saying, That what we let destroy us is achieve this by that age, get there by this time. That’s bullshit. It was created and contrived. An invisible yardstick. We let it pull us around. This isn’t real. Because what you’re doing [00:13:00] right now in the moment, that’s real.

Cathy: Who you love right now, that’s real. Your interests are real. The things that you know you’re good at are real. But the idea, I was talking to some college students this weekend about this, and the, the, the need to focus on this is going to make me money, so I’m going to do it. Yes, I’m going to be miserable, and I’m going to hate what I’m doing, but at least I’ll be making money.

Cathy: That is the um, And I understand why people do it. Like it, it, in a capitalist culture, it totally makes sense because it becomes our way of thinking and we disregard our being and we start doing things that our culture tells us to do. And the thing is, is when I’m saying, get in touch with your being, I’m not saying, so stop doing and stop making money.

Cathy: But why not be in touch with your being at the same time? Well, this goes back to my balance 

Todd: piece because you’re right. I agree with everything you just said, but there’s times when I am 100 percent doing and there is no being. [00:14:00] Or 

Cathy: think, or yeah. Or the thinking’s part of it. 

Todd: And we know people that are sometimes being and not walking this human walk because they don’t think that They’re removed from it all.

Todd: They need to pay their mortgage or that God will come and pay off their credit card. Right. And then there’s 

Cathy: the thinkers who tell you about how great they are. And they say, this is who I am. This is what I learned in therapy. I’m this, I’m that, but they don’t do from that place. There’s a lot of talk and there’s a lot of, you know, language around it.

Cathy: But then you’re like, well, what’d you get done today? 

Todd: And they’re like, nothing. So, so if you’re listening to this, you are more, more likely than not a parent. So, just think about this through your parenting lens, and some of you may have kids who are 2, some of you kids 12 or 22, um, what is your balance, through the lens of parenting, of thinking, being, and doing?

Todd: And I can tell you once again, it falls in line with the way I am in other places, which is mostly doing, some thinking, and a little bit of [00:15:00] being. And I’ll give you one example of me patting myself on the back for just a second, I shared this with you. I’m always Moving in the house. Like, I’m going to the computer, I’m going for a swim, I’m on my phone, and then my youngest daughter was sitting on the front steps of our house last Friday, and I’m like, God, I really haven’t connected with her that much lately, I’m not gonna go in and get to work, I’m just gonna sit next to her, and within like, 10 seconds, um, you know, I give her a kiss goodnight every night, but it’s like, it’s almost like, That’s what we do.

Todd: It wasn’t spontaneous and she took my arm and put it around her shoulder. So I was now hugging her and I just chalk it up being, for at least that moment, I decided I’m just gonna be, I’m not gonna ask her questions. I’m not gonna try to have a quick conversation so I can get on with my day. I’m just gonna sit there.

Todd: And I feel like she picked up on some vibration from me knowing that I was. Available, which is not that, not as often as I wish [00:16:00] it were. So anyways. 

Cathy: Yeah. And I think the same conversation that you and I have is it, and this doesn’t take anything away from what you did because it is good and it was a shift for you and you became aware you were more in being and you, and what I said to you is, you know that when you’re running around, I’m sitting in the family room on my computer choosing to work in the middle of the house.

Cathy: So I can do that for them. As much as I can, especially this summer when everyone’s coming in and out of the house. My, it doesn’t take away from that you did that. I just need to kind of put in that not all moms, but moms are doing that a lot. Do you know what I mean? Like not doing anything. or being present so then that person knows that they can, you know, come and talk to you and not be or say something to you and you’re right there and you can see what they’re doing and they’ll tell you about their day and there is, and I know you can’t do that because you’re on meetings all day so this isn’t a pointing the finger that you should be doing [00:17:00] it this way.

Cathy: I just sometimes when you say that it’s, it’s like a, um, Maybe it’s my ego, but it’s like, I do that all the time. 

Todd: I know. Do you know what I mean? I know. And you get the hugs, the metaphorical hugs, the real hugs, the emotional connection, and I’m not going to say I can’t, but my doer does not want me to see that.

Todd: Put my computer in the middle of the living space because then my doer is not going to be able to do his job. 

Cathy: Correct. And, and I am writing, I am doing emails. It’s, there are times that I definitely go to a different space. It’s not that I’m doing a Zoom in the middle of the family room when my kids are there, but there is an intention behind where I am all the time.

Cathy: There’s a, that’s my being. Yeah. I’m like, I can go hide. I’ve got an office downstairs. I got an office upstairs. And then Todd and I share an office. I could go to any one of those. But if I do that, I’m not going to see any of my kids. And that’s not cool to me. That’s not fun. 

Todd: Your beer. 

Cathy: Yeah. 

Todd: Is, 

Cathy: is, is creating my choices around what I’m [00:18:00] doing.

Todd: Which means your priorities are to be and connect. more often than my beer and connector is with our daughters. 

Cathy: Yeah. Well, and it’s like, um, it’s like what we, it’s the, the loves in order thing. Like the thing, when I wake up in the daytime, the daytime, I don’t wake up in the daytime. I wake up in the morning.

Cathy: What’s most important to me, this is a Kathy thing is relationships, right? So I also love my work and I love my alone time. There’s all sorts of things I love, but the first thing is relationships. So my day is around. Relationships. That’s my choice. There is, and, and people don’t, uh, there may be people who get more done than I do.

Cathy: So, and I’m putting this in air quotes, so they win the productivity medal. Yeah, the doing competition. And there may be people who read more books than I do, and so they win the thinking medal. You know, like if we’re trying to be like, well, wait a second, you know, there is no doing it right. There is just, are you in your [00:19:00] being?

Cathy: And my, what makes me happy in a day. Is when, like, I was so bummed, and I hope you’re okay with me saying this, but like, you know, Cameron and I were having this great conversation, and I went and picked her up, and everything’s great, and we were talking about our date, and you’re such a buzzkill. I know.

Cathy: Like, you, she, he comes in, he hasn’t even seen her in a day, and he starts telling her to not spend money on lunch. Even though that’s the thing she looks forward to the most, is she door dashes for four or five hours, then she gets a lunch and she comes home and that’s what makes it worthwhile. And you came in and I wanted to look at you and go, God, is that going to be your connection today?

Cathy: Yeah. And then she goes upstairs feeling shamed. Now, should she feel ashamed? No, but she did. She was like, cause you’re like, could you consider maybe eating at home? Every now and again. I know, it was just timing, because it’s, you haven’t been with her. You haven’t connected. And so the first thing you say to her is you’re spending too much money, which is already something that has bothered her this summer, which is, so there’s like this lack of your, your doing, which is I’m going to [00:20:00] check off my list reminding my girls that they shouldn’t be spending money, versus the, the thinking, the being of what do I want to do right now when I see my daughter in front of me?

Cathy: And then you leave and you’re like, okay, and then I’m left there to, what’d she say? Just looked at me and went up the stairs and I didn’t say anything because see, I’m stuck in a place where if I say to her, I understand you just want to get a Panera sandwich on the way home. Cause it feels like a good end to the, then I’m going against you.

Cathy: See, because I don’t think her getting a sandwich is a big deal at all. Like, I think that is her way of being like, hard day’s work, here’s my sandwich, and you’re making it about money. And that’s, and so I’m caught between, if I say to her, Go ahead and do that, then I’m going against you, even though I know that’s not important to me.

Todd: Right. 

Cathy: And you, she’s gonna be here three more weeks, and you’re worried about that? 

Todd: Yeah. 

Cathy: Like what? 

Todd: I’m just asking for a little bit of balance. 

Cathy: So, right, so say you are, but then I get your thinking, like that’s what I mean, [00:21:00] so let’s go to doing and thinking. Okay. Your thinking is, I’m concerned about money, or, cause you’re always concerned about money, and I’m trying to teach my girls this.

Cathy: Say to her, I know. That you getting your sandwich is really important. What do we say? Three days a week? Four days a week? Two days a week? Um, you know, humor me. Um, you know, maybe I’ll take you out to lunch one of those days. Like, because it, it comes across I didn’t 

Todd: say it as well as you just said it, but I did say like, Can we, can we not like, Hey, you’re not having, you’re not picking up food after you’re done door dashing.

Todd: It’s can we have a little bit more of a balance? Cause so I did say that, but probably not as gentle as you just described. 

Cathy: And it’s really not clear. She doesn’t know what that means. Are you going to go to the grocery store for her? I told her 

Todd: I would tell me what you want. 

Cathy: Okay. So maybe after we’re done say, I’m heading to the grocery store because are you going to have that available today?

Cathy: Can she get a sandwich today? Like, is there a confusion about, do you know what I mean? Yeah, I [00:22:00] do. So, like, maybe it’s like, it’s not clean it up necessarily because it’s not like you did anything harmful or damaging long term, but maybe clear it up and maybe, you know, say maybe a day a week, two days a week and, you know, I don’t know.

Cathy: It just was a bummer because it was like she and I were having this great conversation and then you come in. Here I come. And you come in with the money stuff and I’m like, God, this is so not important to me. 

Yeah. 

Cathy: Yeah. It would be if she was buying shoes or clothes, um, all of the clothes she’s bought this summer have been with gift cards that she’s gotten and she gets a sandwich like most days that she’s working and I just am like, is that a problem?

Cathy: Do you know what I mean? I don’t know. And to you, I don’t know what it means to you. Like what does the sandwich every day mean to you? 

Todd: It’s that we just spend a lot of money. I’m okay with the dinner thing, but like, can’t we just? Have lunch food here. That’s it. That’s all I want a little bit few days a week.

Todd: Mm 

hmm 

Todd: because it just seems like it’s just a lot [00:23:00] of outside food. And you and I obviously have a different perspective on it. 

Cathy: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and if you can get, if you can talk to her and get exactly, you know, this kind of bread, this cat, then, then it’s all set up and it’s not a big deal. You know, it’s just sometimes that, um, I, maybe it taps a little bit into when I was a kid, cause there was a lot of like eat at home, but then there wouldn’t be anything to eat at home.

Cathy: So you’re kind of stuck between, and I don’t mean like the cupboards were bare. I just mean like, What, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like there was a lot of guilt around it and yet there wasn’t a lot of 

Todd: Well, and I have baggage because I would say I’m going to the grocery store. What do you, I would ask one of our kids What do I get?

Todd: And she said they don’t have anything good there. Like four years ago, she said that. Right. 

Cathy: Yeah, 

Todd: so it’s just me bringing up some of my baggage like they don’t have anything good at the grocery store. I know a lot of stuff at the grocery store. 

Cathy: I know I am I’m very aware and in in I think it’s you know Talking about food and eating out and everything.

Cathy: I [00:24:00] think it’s a very Common challenge for families and I think that I kicked my own butt about it for so many years the fact that I I you know I Made meals and prepared things, but I don’t really cook and I don’t cook new things. I don’t have new ideas. It’s not a creative endeavor for me. Um, and it was always a concern and a worry.

Cathy: And it’s just one of those things that I just want to put down and not because you’re going to go, you know, and again, I think we’ve had this discussion before, but you’re going to go to the grocery store and get a loaf of bread, a thing, a turkey. Um, a quart of milk, stick of butter, I don’t know, and you know, cheese, and so you’re gonna come home spending 20 bucks.

Cathy: And maybe that’ll work out in a way where, you know, we saved 5 or maybe 7 and I just, I don’t know. I still, I just struggle with it because 

Todd: I 

Cathy: don’t 

Todd: know if it, I think we both struggled through a different lens. 

Cathy: Yeah, [00:25:00] exactly. We’re both coming at it differently. 

Todd: Yeah. What I hear you saying is, okay, great, Todd, you’re going to go to the grocery store.

Todd: It’s going to take more time. More money. Almost as much money. Right. And, uh, And don’t 

Cathy: you feel like we’ve nailed breakfast? Nobody, everybody here eats breakfast here. 

Todd: Um, yeah, I mean, except when we go out to breakfast, but 

Cathy: well, yeah, but that’s like brunch on a Saturday or Sunday or something like that.

Cathy: But what I mean is like, nobody’s like, Go get me a bagel this morning. Like, we all have our own thing that we do for breakfast. We’re done with that. Sometimes, occasionally, we make dinner here. Um, lunches, you and I tend to eat at home most of the time, but it just, it feels like we kind of got it, but maybe not.

Cathy: Maybe if she, like, what’s your ideal? 

Todd: Eating here all 

Cathy: the time? 

Todd: No, of course not. I don’t like eating in house all the time. I, I just think that we can balance the scales a little bit. That’s all. All right. 

Cathy: It’s so general, but all right. Are 

Todd: you asking me [00:26:00] like how many times? Oh, I don’t understand what you’re asking.

Cathy: Well, it’s just, I, you know what, it’s so not part of this conversation. Like, it’s fine. Like that’s, this is something you and I can take off the podcast and be like, okay, what does this mean? Well, I’m guessing there’s a lot of people. 

Todd: Families out there that can, uh, Oh, I think there’s a Reliant to this conversation.

Todd: I, 

Cathy: and I, I talk to people about this all the time. I think more so when my kids were little, you know, and like making lunches for school and there was just all, there’s just all these things, but I feel like. It just, I don’t know, and maybe someone who’s really strictly budgeted, is that a word? Budgeted? Um, could share with me, no Kathy, over the course of a year, if you do this, this, and this, you will save 6, 000 or whatever.

Cathy: Like, I don’t want to come off as the know it all in this area, because you could be right. I just, when, when I’m doing it on a monthly basis, and I’m, or a daily basis, it seems like. 5 here, 2 here. 

Todd: Right. And you know, I’m the one looking at them, credit [00:27:00] cards and all that stuff. So I get reinforced every month.

Todd: Like, holy crap. It just adds up. That’s all. All right. So let’s pivot to quotes. Okay. No, actually I, you heard where I feel like my center of gravity is between doing, being, and thinking. 82, 15, 3. 

Cathy: Oh yeah, I didn’t say mine. Oh God. It’s hard for me to differentiate my being and thinking a little bit because I can stare off into space and be thinking, but a lot of what I’m trying to do is get grounded.

Cathy: So they’re very intertwined for me. Um, you know, like if I’m doing yoga, I’m doing, I’m moving and doing. But there’s a lot of being in it, you know, um, let’s see, what’s, I think, I mean, I do, I’m doing all the time. Like, um, you know, if it’s like cleaning the kitchen or on my computer writing emails or, you know, writing something like I, I, I think, oh, doing [00:28:00] 40%.

Cathy: Um, cause I think that’s human. Um, I think my thinking and being maybe 30 thinking, And I hope I’m adding this up right. 

Todd: At least even 

Cathy: 30 for being. Yeah, I think that’s about right. 40, 30, 30. Yeah, and there’s no right answer to that, but. And I’m, and the reason I’m doing 30, 30 is, is not because it’s always clean and perfectly being and thinking, but because I’m going back and forth.

Cathy: I mean, and you also have to remember everybody what I do for a living. What I do for a living is think about being. Right? So like, you know, not only for myself personally, but other people, I write about it. I think about it. I talk about it on this podcast. So it’s part of my job too. So I think 40 

Todd: 30 30.

Todd: Yeah. And it’s, there’s no right answer. It’s possible my numbers are way off, but the idea is to look at it and see what would you like it to be? What would I like it to be? Well, I can tell you the fact that I gave myself 3 percent of. being, maybe I could double [00:29:00] that and make it 6 percent and do a little bit less doing and a little bit less thinking.

Todd: So it’s not like measuring my numbers versus yours. It’s me measuring my number of where it is that I want to be. 

Cathy: Yeah, and yours is more general and mine is more on certain days, I could get more done. Well, Sheesh. I struggle with that sentence because I don’t ever not do something someday, but I also am trying to categorize things like, I’m going to go on a walk today or I’m going to go get coffee with someone or I’m going to, you know, like when we in this, this culture say doing, we mean productivity list.

Cathy: Yes. Right. Yes. So I don’t want to put myself in a box of, man, I could be doing more. Because I, I feel like I kind of uncaged that a while ago because I am productive, you know, like I, I. You know, just finished a book and turned it in two weeks ahead of time. Like I’m, I’m ahead of my, I’m, I’m not a late person.

Cathy: So I can’t be critical, but could, I think what Todd would probably [00:30:00] not want from me, but as far as doing is, could I be marketing better? Could we be doing more, you know, as far as like writing things on Team Zen? Could we be, you know, creating more plans for the future? Like Todd likes meetings and, you know, let’s make a plan in a five year.

Cathy: And I don’t do that very well. And so that would be, I think, in your mind, like, you could do more, um Well, it’s funny, 

Todd: like, so, going to the archetypes real quick. So in, in a, um, big picture, there’s Sovereign, which is king or queen, Warrior, Magician, Lover. Okay. And Lover, I’m going to call, is the one who Bees, who is, feels.

Todd: So lover, the lover typically feels, but in this case, I’m going to call it is, you know, the B E. Is. Okay. The warrior does. The warrior gets stuff done. Okay. I don’t care if you’re male, female, You’re, we’re all, we all have warrior in us. So lor, uh, lover Bs. A [00:31:00] lover typically feels, but for this, for this discussion, I’m going to say is, or just is.

Todd: Uh, the warrior does. The magician thinks. Okay. That’s the thing. The one thing that is missing is the sovereign and the sovereign like does a few things. One is it sees like, what is it that we want to create down the road? Big picture. Big picture planning. All the. Yeah. The Sovereign also blesses and does things like that.

Todd: So, um, there’s just a lot of alignment between doing, thinking, being, and the archetype. So, just for fun, um, I just found some quotes on each one of these things. Okay. So, to be, um, To be 

Cathy: or not to be? 

Todd: It is not Shakespeare. Lao Tzu, which I thought was good. And Lao Tzu is who, sweetie? Lao Tzu? Lao Tzu. 

Cathy: Isn’t it Chu 

Todd: or is it Su?

Todd: I don’t know. 

Cathy: I don’t either. Um, who is he? Uh, he wrote, uh, the Tao Te Ching, which came about way, way, way, way, way before the Bible. Yeah. 

Todd: So just riff off of this quote, knowing others [00:32:00] is intelligence. This is in the to be category. Knowing yourself is true wisdom. Correct. Mastering others is strength. and mastering yourself as true power.

Cathy: I love it. It’s 

Todd: pretty good, right? 

Cathy: So knowing others. is intelligence. So that is thinking, meaning you have knowledge. Thinking is about knowledge. So you know, others, you know, things about other people. And we spend a lot of time trying to get information about other people. If it be our relationships, we try and like analyze the people in our life to celebrity gossip, to politics.

Cathy: We’re trying to know things about other people. And then he says, knowing yourself, is wisdom that we need. There’s more. If we were to spend more time knowing why we’re reacting the way we are, why something bothers us, why we’re creating a shift, why those things keep us out of other people’s business and keeps us in our [00:33:00] own business.

Cathy: Now, does that mean then we become selfish and, you know, narcissistic and we don’t worry about other people? No, because when you Know yourself and you are wise, wisdom is compassion, so you will be kind to people because you feel good in your own skin. So you’re not going to become, if you’re cruel, that means there’s something going on in you you’re not looking at.

Cathy: So that’s the thing we miss is we’re very like isolated in our thinking where we’re like if I focus on myself I’m going to become selfish when really what you’re doing is you’re getting to know yourself so you become wise. Yeah. 

Todd: Second quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson. Okay. To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment.

Cathy: Yeah. I actually, um, it’s one of my favorite quotes and I put it in my book this time for JC in the, in my book that’s coming out, JC Cameron and Skyler write something for it. And JC wrote something about expectation and how challenging that’s been for her. And I used to that quote when talking [00:34:00] about her because, um, You know, they’re, she’s a big observer and she’s like looked around the world a lot and she notices what everybody else is doing.

Cathy: And I think her work and will continue to be just because of the kind of person she is, is to stay yourself, stay yourself because she’s so influent and, and this sounds like she’s influenced, meaning she’s trying to be like other people, not in the way they look and are. Like, JC’s got her own, JC’s so interesting as far as her, she’s got her own look, she’s got her own vibe.

Cathy: She’s not a conformist. She’s not a conformist, but she does worry about, as far as my future, am I doing things the right way? And that’s what she watches, and she feels the expectation or the disappointment. If she doesn’t feel like she’s, you know, that quote that I read before about, you know, this is not, um, you know, the one I read that was from the book that, that I sent to her and she’s like, I needed that today.

Cathy: You know, remember that this, this [00:35:00] isn’t real, you know, 

Todd: the, the rat race of life. And our kids compare themselves to whoever happens to be quote unquote doing the best. 

Cathy: Correct. And that in the people who are like, I’m doing the best and I’m struggling, I’m suffering and I’m figuring it out, but I’m working and I’m moving up the mountain.

Cathy: She’s like, should I be struggling and suffering? Should I be moving up the mountain? Don’t we all do this? This isn’t a JC thing. It’s just. Well, one example on JC 

Todd: is she applied to one school, got accepted. And accepted the invitation, or whatever it is, and she knew where she was going, probably like what, in January?

Todd: She knew where she was going in September, Todd. September. Isn’t that crazy? Meanwhile, our other kid, um, uh, Applied to 12 schools and made a later choice, I guess. Yeah. March or April. 

Mm hmm. 

Todd: Um, and I remember Jaycee having a moment like, Oh my God, my friends are so stressed out because they didn’t know what school they were choosing or getting into or whatever or accepted from.

Todd: Right. She’s like, what’s wrong with me? She 

Cathy: said, should I be stressed out? Yeah. Like, did [00:36:00] I? And, and the thing is, is, you know, we made sure she understood it’s a blessing to know where you want to go to school. Like, that’s not a problem you need to create into a problem. But that is what I mean about, you know, like, You can have really good gut instincts about who you are, but you still have to live within the outside world.

Cathy: Like the people you talked about, the being people, like people, maybe nuns who live in a monastery or monks who live in a seminary or they, all they have to focus on is being because they’re not being influenced by the outside world as much. You know, they obviously live amongst each other, but they’re not dealing with heavy traffic or constant news or 24 seven, you know, social media.

Cathy: That’s what So their being is simpler. And so when we’re trying to be and think and do in the culture we’re living in, even if you have a great sense of yourself, you’re still going to be influenced. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Cathy: So, 

Todd: yeah. Um, third quote, Soren Kierkegaard, life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards.

Cathy: So you kind of said [00:37:00] that like Chandler. 

Todd: The life can only be under life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived That’s interesting because if we’re understanding the backwards, we’re not present in this moment. 

Cathy: Why don’t you think about it this way? The quote that I, um, say to the girls all the time is, my dad told me, as you get through or going through life, you’re going to look back and you’re going to see that some of the things that you did that didn’t make sense at the time will start to come together like puzzle pieces.

Cathy: And you will understand why everything happened. I’m not doing a everything happens for a reason thing. That’s, that can be very triggering. And I’m not suggesting every single thing. Um, is a good thing. You know, what I’m saying though is every single experience we’ve had, good, bad, indifferent, ugly, beautiful, it starts to come together into a big puzzle.

Cathy: Yeah. And you start to see it. So I think the quote that you just read is about, you can see your life really well in hindsight. Yeah. But when you’re going [00:38:00] forward and you don’t, like, for example, we’ll go back to Jaycee, her Her greatest, you know, she has one year of college left. She doesn’t know what’s going to happen in her life.

Cathy: And it’s so scary. Um, it is for everybody, their age. It is when you get out of high school. It’s just scary. And we sometimes, because we’re already in this phase of life, we’re like, it’s so fun where you are. It’s so fun. It’s such a party. It’s scary for them. Sure. Because they can’t see it. 

Todd: And we have since forgotten how scary that 

Cathy: can be.

Cathy: Because we have all this hindsight where we’re like, everything works out. You pay attention, you know, you can see it. We, we have the gift of. the full body experience. Like, you know, like 

Todd: I have amnesia of what, what, how we struggled. I remember I graduated from college and I’m like, okay, what, what now? I got to, what?

Todd: Put on a suit. And I remember being like, all right, so I have a job. And then in May, I don’t have a summer vacation. Like adults have to work the whole time except for two weeks. Like, how’d this happen? 

Cathy: I remember when I was working at the hospital and [00:39:00] just the way that the days were, um, We, and this would happen in the summer sometimes too, but more in the, in the winter where I would leave when it was dark and come home when it was dark.

Cathy: And I was like, I don’t see the sun anymore. Like for someone who, you know, and again, I was like 27 years old, 28 years old. That didn’t make any sense to me. I’m like, is this life? You know? And again, we set up, is this what we signed up for? And, and it is for periods of time. And that’s the thing is things that isn’t forever, but that is, Now.

Cathy: Yeah. And if it’s really bothersome, you have to figure out how to not make that the way it is. If it’s that you go out to, you go outside for lunch, or if it’s that you don’t do that job anymore and you figure out that I have to be not inside of an office all day. 

Todd: It’s, it’s, it’s relative. One more quote and then we’re going to go to the thinking.

Todd: Okay. Okay. Uh, it’s from Rumi and this is under the B slash lover quadrant. Okay. Let yourself be silently drawn by the strange pull of what you really love. It will not lead you astray. Okay. You know, that sums it all up. And I could see how people can [00:40:00] weaponize that the other way too. Like, Hey, if you just follow what you love, then you’re not going to make it.

Cathy: Which do you believe that? 

Todd: No, but there’s a balance. It’s like, there isn’t anything else. Like we’ve even talked about this between. Liz Gilbert’s interpretation of your love, your artistic nature, and don’t try to monetize what it is that you love because then it cheapens it. And then the opposite extreme is Tony Robbins, who said many times, If you want to take the island, burn the boats, which basically means, um, don’t leave yourself any Possibility of failure.

Todd: In other words, put yourself head first into what you love, and if you really love it, then you will quote unquote make it. Um, so those are two opposite extremes, and I think the answer is always somewhere in between. 

Cathy: Right. And, and that’s, and I think that life circumstances, you know, dictate, you know, That, like, I still believe, and will always believe, I don’t care how old you are, move toward what you love.

Cathy: Move toward what you love. You may be in a situation where you have [00:41:00] to make a certain amount of rent, or something happens to you, medical bills have to be paid, like, life circumstances can get in the way where you have to take a waitressing job, or you have to do some babysitting, or you have to be a nanny, on top of all the other stuff you’re doing, because you have to make ends meet.

Cathy: My big butt is, it would make me sad that you would let go of the parts you do love. You know, you might have to let go of it a little bit, but you somehow keep it. for yourself because that’s what makes life meaningful. 

Yeah. 

Cathy: So if you only move toward money and you’re like pushing aside the things that make life meaningful, then what are we doing here?

Cathy: Yeah. And so when someone’s like, we can’t, that you don’t understand my circumstance and you don’t understand and you don’t understand I do and you do what you have to do. There was a period of time in my life when I was working full time, going to school three fourths time and having an internship. At the, like, all at the same time and that’s [00:42:00] what I had to do and I didn’t sleep that much and I was going from one thing to the next and, you know, driving around in circles trying to find a parking space in Chicago when I got home and barely, you know, talk about eating out.

Cathy: Like, I, I think I didn’t even have anything in my fridge. You know, it was just, I was living by the seat of my pants and we have years like that. Sometimes people have decades like that. My big butt is. The thing I did appreciate, though, is I was in school for something I love. Yeah. Right? Didn’t love the internship.

Cathy: My work was pretty rough, but I was at least feeling like, well, at least I’m going in the right direction. 

Todd: Um, I need, because I haven’t played any quotes yet, I’m going to play one quote from Dead Poets Society and then we’re going to move over to thinking. 

Okay. Maybe. Mr. Hopkins, you may agree with him, thinking, Yes, we should simply study our Mr.

Pritchard and learn our rhyme and meter and go quietly about the business of achieving other ambitions. I have a little secret for you. Huddle up. Huddle up![00:43:00] 

We don’t read and write poetry because it’s cute. We read and write poetry because we are members of the human race. And the human race is filled with passion. Medicine, law, business, engineering. These are noble pursuits and necessary to sustain life. But poetry, beauty, romance, love, these are what we stay alive for, to quote from Whitman.

Oh me, oh life of the questions of these recurring. Of the endless trains of the faithless of cities 

Cathy: few. But yeah, love it. 

Todd: That’s it, right? Okay, so I have all these quotes are really good and I’m afraid I’m not gonna get to them all. So I just want your one quick take. Okay, I’ll be quick. Um, if I can find out where I am.

Todd: Okay, so, um, this is about thinking. So this is a magician. Rene Descartes. You know that one, don’t [00:44:00] you? What is it? Uh, to think, uh, I think, therefore I am. There you go. Albert Einstein. Any ideas what his quote is? No. We cannot solve our problems. Oh yeah, with the same mind that created him. Socrates. Socrates.

Todd: Socrates. The unexamined life is not worth living. Mm hmm. He’s in my office. Socrates. It was my 

Cathy: dad’s. 

Todd: This one’s a little tricky. We’re gonna have to spend a minute on it. William James. A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. Sure. Help me with that. 

Cathy: I think that what comes into my mind when I hear that is, I think, for example, last week I wrote about how we sometimes are unwilling to confront the issue in front of us and instead we spend all of our time thinking about how to categorize it as okay.

Cathy: Like, so for example, if we notice that something’s going on with our kid, instead of saying to our kid, Hey, are you doing all right? Because I’m noticing a difference. We will [00:45:00] Think about it, journal about it, talk to our partner about it, talk to our friends about it, talk to our therapist about it, and try and convince ourselves it’s not something we need to do anything about because we don’t want to deal with the thing.

Cathy: So we re categorize it as teen angst. And we’re like, see, it’s teen angst. I don’t need to do anything. And that is Rearranging our prejudices. Prejudice is a strong word. Right. So I don’t, but I think sometimes it’s us Rationalizing our negative thoughts as being okay, and us being Okay with everybody else changing except us.

Todd: You ready for Thomas Edison? Mm hmm. It’s a little harsh. Oh boy 5 percent of the people think, 10 percent of the people think they think, And the other 85 percent would rather die than think. 

Cathy: Yeah, I mean, I think he’s, you know, uh, being facetious, kinda, or trying to make a point. He’s exaggerating is probably a better word.

Cathy: Um, but the, I mean, this is kind of, Todd, what I’ve been talking about since I got [00:46:00] home from my weekend. Like, there’s a lot of people who would rather just keep doing what they’re doing, um, than. actually think about what they’re saying and what they’re doing because then they would have to question so many other things.

Cathy: Right. 

Todd: Look inward, look at the mirror. Correct. 

Cathy: And if, if I start to unravel that ball of yarn, that could get messy. 

Todd: Messy and energy expending. Correct. It’s tough. It’s easier just to kind of float through life and not think. Um, Blaise Pascal. All of humanity’s problems stem from, in this case, man’s ability.

Todd: It didn’t say, you know, women weren’t, weren’t around. We weren’t around. All of humanity’s problems stem from man’s inability to sit quietly in a room alone. For sure. I will just really quickly riff on that is I do have a meditation practice. It’s sporadic. I get uncomfortable [00:47:00] sitting in a room alone. 

Cathy: For sure.

Cathy: And you know that shock experiment? Yeah, yeah. Where people 

Todd: were much Right. They would rather shock themselves than sit. Than 

Cathy: be alone. 

Todd: Yeah. That’s so crazy. I would be the one shocking myself for sure. You’re like, 

Cathy: I’ll take it. I’m a little bored. Let’s do something. Well, and you know, Todd, it’s interesting because I want to make sure to not put you in a category of unwilling to look at your thoughts because I don’t think that’s the case.

Cathy: I think you do have an underlying. A lot of the things that I challenge you on in our relationship, I kind of know where they come from because I know you so well. And I don’t mean I know you better than yourself. That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is like, I know the money stuff isn’t always thought through.

Cathy: You’re just working from a fear. I know that a lot of the, I don’t want to be alone stuff is childhood stuff of if I don’t have people around me, my parents are going to fight and it’s going to be uncomfortable. Yeah. Um, I know the I gotta keep moving thing is I’m feeling stuff and if I keep moving and go [00:48:00] ride my bike, I don’t have to feel things.

Cathy: Sure. So, you know, I don’t think you do bad things and then try to not think about it. I think you just have this like, history of, you know, trauma where you know it. Um, but it’s hard to not react from that place. Yeah. So it’s because I think why I’m differentiating is I think a lot of people don’t look at their behavior and they don’t, they’re like, I don’t want to see it.

Cathy: Your behavior is very good. 

Todd: Well, I, I definitely investigate my reactivity. I’m not one of those guys. You don’t hurt people. Hurt people hurt people. Sweet. Last one. Lao Tzu, stop thinking and end your problems. 

Cathy: It’s true. It’s very Byron Katie. Right. I mean, which, well, Lao Tzu said it first before Byron Katie, but, you know, questioning your thoughts.

Cathy: Like, you can make the, the, the great thing about meditation is the goal is not don’t think. It’s noticing your thoughts and then you see how wrapped up you are in something [00:49:00] that doesn’t really even exist. And if you question it, it starts to like float away like you’re blowing on a dandelion. And you’re like, oh my god, so all that energy, it doesn’t, it’s not even real.

Cathy: And, and then sometimes there’s a real thing, like there’s a bill on my desk I have to pay, or I have a kid who’s sick and I have to deal with it. But at least you can give your energy to that. Sure. And not be worried about the, like your, your dad last night was telling a story Uh, I’ll keep names out of it, but it was something about, he ran into Faye Dunaway.

Cathy: That name I’ll keep in there. And he said that she looked at him and was judging him and He decided he knew what 

Todd: a glance from Faye Dunaway. And there’s so many layers of comedic value in this story. Yeah. 

Cathy: I mean, and that’s why I’m not telling the basic part. 

Todd: The one I chose to highlight is that how can any of us with any degree of certainty, know what [00:50:00] a, what a glance, what a stare means.

Todd: I think it’s such a terrible, and he’s like, I know, I know people. I know when people give me that look, and I’m not saying that there’s no ability to pick up on body signals, but I also know that it is sometimes terribly inaccurate. 

Cathy: Well, and I think what he knows is himself. And when he stares at people, he’s judging them.

Cathy: So he’s like, when he says, I know people. He doesn’t know everybody. He just knows what he’s thinking. And then we think it’s kind of like, you know, projection is when you start to say well These people are corrupt and they’re evil and they’re this and a lot of times That’s what that person is doing and they’re projecting it on everybody else because that’s what they do So they’ll be like there’s no way that these people aren’t corrupt because I’m corrupt, you know, so There is, um, but it just made me laugh because first of all, then we figured out he didn’t, it may not have even been Faye Dunaway.

Todd: Yeah. And he may not have been at that place. Yeah. It was a 

Cathy: lot of [00:51:00] energy towards something that made it, maybe didn’t 

Todd: happen. Um, finally, uh, the to do, which is the warrior, the warrior gets stuff done. Um, Amelia Earhart, the most effective way to do it is to do it. Right. Uh, Ralph Waldo Emerson. Do not go where the path may lead.

Todd: Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. That’s kind of awesome. Wait, 

Cathy: can I go back to the most effective way to do it? And, you know, and again, I’m not claiming to be the expert in doing, because that’s not necessarily true at all. I’m the 

Todd: expert because I do it 82 percent of the time. 

Cathy: But I think historically, one of the conversations, this is just a sliver of doing, is like, let’s talk about the, uh, you know, like a conference that you and I are putting together.

Cathy: And there’s a lot of talk and a lot of meetings about things we should do. Yeah. And I’m always like, if you think of something, just do it. Quit having a meeting about it. Quit figuring out the best way to do it and just do it. If you want to send an email, send the email. Right. And so my form of doing, I hate meetings.

Cathy: I think meetings are just a place where people kind of bloviate about what they’re doing. Their goals are a lot of unproductive time happening and [00:52:00] people are like, and then I was in charge of this. And then here’s what I thought. And then this person said this and I’m like, okay, and it’s not because I’m so highly productive.

Cathy: It’s because I’m bored. Like I already know your job and I already know that I, I’m thinking you’re doing a good job. Like I’m not, you don’t need to convince me because if we’re working together, I’m already like, you got this, you know? And so that’s, that’s my, Even though you can win the doing. Mm-Hmm.

Cathy: Medal. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. I win. That’s my sliver. 

Todd: As long as I win of 

Cathy: where sometimes I don’t understand the, the hyper consciousness. Yeah. I think 

Todd: what you’re saying is sometimes I plan so much you don’t do it. I get around to the doing so 

Cathy: you’ll tell me things like, you know, with the conference, like, we should do this different this year and we should make this plan.

Cathy: And I’m like, I’m doing this. I’m not saying I’m doing it the right way or the most, you know, productive way over. You’d 

Todd: rather like break it and fix it on the way. And I’m trying to assemble this perfectly laid out plan that we execute from step one to step one. 

Cathy: That’s it. I’m like, you’ll be like, we should.

Cathy: you know, email schools. I’m like, Oh, I did that like a month ago. I emailed all the social workers like, and I’m not waiting to check a box. It’s just, [00:53:00] I think of social workers and so I emailed them and I think sometimes the plan makes us feel good, but we’re not doing anything. 

Todd: Um, we have two more quotes.

Todd: Okay. Um, Benjamin Franklin, well done is better than well said. Yeah. So what, what I thought about this and I’ll just bring it back to you and I, there’s times when. I have said, um, you know, cause, sweetie, you show up in such a loving way 99 percent of the time in our family. 

Cathy: 99. 

Todd: 2. 99. 2. Or maybe 98. 8. And, but I have invited you like, just, you know, just miss, you know, not be there for the girls all the time or be grumpy or be in a bad mood.

Todd: I’ll say that to you. Yeah. And then when you actually are grumpy and are in a bad mood, then all of a sudden I get all jacked up and I’m like, Oh, what’s happening? And I just need to fawn you so that I can, um, feel good about myself. Yeah. That’s the difference between saying and doing. So I’m saying to you, sweetie, I’ll invite your mess.

Todd: Your [00:54:00] mess is welcome here. Right. But the minute you show up with a mess, then I’m not able, not able to hold the mess. 

Cathy: You’re not the only one. 

Todd: Well, 

Cathy: I think people will always say, why don’t you? lean on me or tell me things or let me do that. And then when I do, they’re like, Ooh, that’s no bueno. Um, and so that, and that is, and I have plenty of people who do support me.

Cathy: This isn’t like a cry for help. It’s just more like, and I don’t think I’m alone. I think that’s the case with moms a lot. I think, who was I just having this conversation with? And they were saying, we Oh, I know. Um, uh, Jay Z. Um, there was a lot of conversation about, she’s starting to say what she needs and do what she wants.

Cathy: And when there’s a game night, she doesn’t want to play. Or when there’s a parade they’re supposed to go to, she doesn’t want to go. And the whole family’s so uncomfortable with it. But they’re like, Mom, go be happy. Do what you want to do. But then when she does, they don’t like it. Who 

Todd: are we 

Cathy: talking about right now?

Cathy: I don’t want to say because I’m 

Todd: trying [00:55:00] to not. I thought you said Jay Z. Okay. Sorry. I didn’t, I missed it. 

Cathy: Yeah. 

Todd: Okay. 

Cathy: Yeah. So I, you know, There was just that conversation. Well, 

Todd: I’ve had friends in my life who said, Todd, I want your mess because you’re always so controlled. You’re always so calculating. You always have your stuff together.

Todd: And there’s times when I do show them my messy side of myself, but there’s a part of me that’s like, you can’t handle my mess, so I’m not even going to show it to you. 

Cathy: Ooh, so you feel like, so is it you can’t handle my mess or I can’t handle having you see my mess? 

Todd: It’s probably the latter, but it’s safer for me to say the former.

Cathy: So, because what would your mess look like? Cause I live with you and you’re not super messy. And are you saying like, Ooh, I could 

Todd: be like, and when I, and the messy one is the below the line, critical judger, blamer, Victim, all that stuff. 

Cathy: Okay, so it’s not your best self? No, not at all. And I can’t stand the word best self, it’s not, you know, you love the um, above the line.

Cathy: Yeah. [00:56:00] But it’s, it’s your, your regulated self. Yeah, 

Todd: my responsive self. Your responsive self. People are saying your messy self, they’re saying Your reactive self, the one who doesn’t think, the one who’s not discerning. 

Cathy: Why do people want that? 

Todd: Because they think it’s being held in. I’m talking about trees, by the way.

Todd: He thinks I’m pushing it all down. And when you push stuff down and you don’t let it out, It will become toxic. It will become a disease. 

Cathy: Okay, I, I hear that. And I’m not saying he’s wrong. You know, that’s a very general way of, you push down toxicity, it becomes disease. Okay. But I also think we can have feelings and learn how to regulate them and not take them out on people.

Cathy: So like, I have plenty of feelings. And I’ll be plenty sad. I still haven’t cried, by the way. I was telling Todd something that really hurt me this week, and I can’t cry because I’m so defensive about it. Like, I know exactly what’s happening. I’m trying to, like, maintain my 25 year old self. [00:57:00] But I I, you, we may say, well, you’re pushing down those feelings and what I’m doing is working them through and helping myself stay regulated.

Cathy: I’m talking about them. I’m writing about them. I’m moving. I’m still trying to cry about it. It, which is weird, right? Because I tell everybody I cry every day, but I can’t cry about this thing. Um, and so. But I’m not becoming toxic. Do you know what I mean? Like, there is, I think we so 

Todd: Well, you’re working it through, but that’s a healthier way of working it through than my way, which is go to my computer and get Oh.

Todd: And work on emails. 

Cathy: Okay, but I think, I think you don’t give yourself enough credit. I think you do work things through. I’m 

Todd: generalizing. Of course there’s times when I work things through. Yeah, I think you do. Like, I just talked to a good buddy of mine who’s struggling. He just had to move his mom, uh, from California to Chicago.

Todd: Put her in an Alzheimer’s memory care program. So hard. He had all these other things that happened to him. And he’s like, yeah, but they’re first world problems because at least I have enough money to put my mom in a place and I’m like, dude, and I even own my projection because [00:58:00] everything I tell my friends or clients to do, it’s, A lot of times, I have not been able to do it myself.

Todd: So what I told him was you need to give yourself space to be mad and sad of the horrific week that you’ve had. His dog died of 20 years and I’m like, you gotta let all that, move that energy through. And but my warning to him is like, don’t. I pass this spiritually saying, well, at least you have money, or at least you had the dog for 20 years.

Todd: Instead, just feel the anger and the grief and the, all the other feelings. And I’m telling him to do that. when many of the times I’m 

Cathy: unwilling to do that. Right. And I think there’s two things going on there. Number one, like you said, there’s a spiritual bypassing, jumping over it to not feel it, but it’s also what we call comparative suffering.

Cathy: And that’s clinical terminology. Comparative suffering is where we don’t feel like we have the right to share our grief about something because [00:59:00] someone else is suffering more than us. The thing that’s, that people have a hard time understanding is grief is grief. And so there’s Even though you can look at the outside world and say, but theirs is worse, you’re having the same kind of feelings in your body.

Cathy: Do you see what I mean? So the outside, what’s, what has happened may have more of a boom initially, or there’s more that they have to figure out and plan for. But when, you know, and I’ll just use, because I think you said something about their dog. When you lose a pet or a dog, that, that is devastating. And you, and to say like, oh, it was just a dog.

Cathy: Nobody who has a dog or a pet ever says it’s just a dog. Everybody knows how much you love an animal. Forget about 

Todd: it. 

Cathy: And, and to be like, yeah, but at least it’s not a person or at least it’s not a kid. What a waste of your energy. 

Todd: Well, it’s funny you talk about comparative suffering. And I think you, you probably taught me this is, you know, the minute you’re comparing pain, it’s not a good thing.

Todd: And I remember Billy Corrigan, who’s. Lead singer for Smashing Pumpkins. You know, I, I love the [01:00:00] Smashing Pumpkins. Billy is an interesting individual. Let’s just say that. But I do remember some gold that he, some, some wonderful words of wisdom that he shared in an interview one time and I might even close the show with the song because he was suicidal when he was, um, doing Siamese Dream.

Todd: And he, he has had people, uh, come up to him because he had a lot of trauma as a younger boy. As a kid, yeah. And he said, trauma is trauma. And they’re the minute like, Oh, well, what happened to you? And let me compare it to what happened to me. And he’s like, forget about all that. Like, and I actually think there is levels of trauma, but at the same time, it’s not necessarily that healthy of a thing to do.

Cathy: Well, and then we start to get into minutiae. Like there are people who do things like, Oh, I was molested as a kid. I was molested. Well, you were molested three years and I was molested only for three months or three times. And so therefore your pain. I mean, you guys like. We don’t need to play that game.

Cathy: No, that’s a thinking game, right? That’s a comparative suffering game. That’s a, like, I’m not [01:01:00] worthy game. I’m not worthy of my grief that I’m only worthy of my grief. If the most catastrophic thing happens and if I can’t find any light. then I’m worthy of my grief. But being, hopefully every human being, no matter what happens, there is a light somewhere.

Cathy: If it’d be a person, if it’d be a dog, if it’d be a job they love, if it’d be having enough money to handle it. Like, hopefully there’s something that gets you through or else what, again, what are we doing? We are such a, um, a hedonistic society that believes we should be suffering. So we have these, like, this binary of we should be able to have fun, and I’m an American, and I deserve everything, and give me the money, and, you know, give me the quick fixes, and at the same time we, like, internally suffer about all of it, and we don’t think we’re good enough, and we don’t think we’re worthy of it, and that’s why marketing is so effective on us.

Cathy: Because we look at people in the commercial on the new med and even though it’s telling us we could bleed out and we could have migraines the rest of our life and we could lose a limb, we’re like, yeah, but that med makes me happy, like that [01:02:00] person there, you know, and again, I’m not demonizing meds. Meds are fine.

Cathy: But it’s the way we’re marketing it. Yeah, exactly. 

Todd: Um, so any final thoughts? 

Cathy: Uh, no. I, I’m, 

Todd: I feel good. So you have a women’s group tomorrow on Team Zen. If you don’t know what Team Zen is, click on the link. It’s Kathy and a bunch of listeners from the podcast who 

Cathy: Yeah, so if you need like a women’s group, like you’re like, I need women to like, even if you just need to be a voyeur and listen to what women are experiencing and kind of find a sense of, you know, what’s going on.

Cathy: Um, uh, what’s the word I’m looking for? So you don’t feel alone. You’re like, oh, lots of people are going through things. Join Team Zen and every month we have a women’s circle. That alone 

Todd: is worth 

Cathy: it. Then we have like 10 million other things. So, 

Todd: um, and then I also want to say thank you to Jeremy Kraft, Bald Headed Beauty, Painting and Remodeling throughout the Chicagoland area.

Todd: 6309561800. And we’re going to close with a little piece of Disarm by Smashing Pumpkins. 

But that little child, [01:03:00] sat on 

Cathy: me and such a part of you. I don’t know where 

that thing is from. I don’t know where that thing is from. I used to be a little boy. 

Round two. Change a little bit. And change a little bit. Pretty pleasant.