[00:00:00]
Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd. This is Cathy
Todd: welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 772. While listen to Zen Parenting Radio because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s wellbeing. Is a parent’s self understanding.
Todd: On today’s show, uh, your sub stack is going to be the inspiration. Okay. And it’s about conformity. Conforming. Conforming. Um, it makes me think of a song that I want to play, but I’m not going to play it right now. I’ll play it when we’re introing it. Um, we have a Zen Talk later today. Did you know that, sweetie?
Todd: I did not. Zen Talk. I Todd’t know what number it is. Uh, but it’s this community that Todd and I, uh, [00:01:00] created many years ago and, um, a lot of different things we do. We The main thing is that we get on Zoom and we support and connect with a bunch of other Zen Parenting listeners. We’re a team. We’re a team.
Todd: We’re a team. We have each other’s backs. And we do a lot of many other things. So if you’re interested, scroll in the show notes, um, and you’ll be able to learn more. Um, happy belated Fourth of July, sweetie. Thank you. Did you enjoy your Fourth of July weekend? I did, very much. It’s kind
Cathy: of weird because it wasn’t a Fourth of July weekend because Fourth of July was on
Todd: Thursday.
Todd: Right, we were actually home. Yeah. For most of 4th of July.
Cathy: So we didn’t see any fireworks except from afar. Like we saw some as we were like driving and, you know, random, but we didn’t like go sit anywhere. But we did go to away for the weekend with our good friends and I had a terrific time. We were on the water.
Cathy: Went on a boat, um, and we were, we stayed up late and, well, not that late. No. We didn’t really stay. You started early and we ended early. We started early and ended early. We had a lot of good food, a lot of laughs and, um, a lot of good music. Yeah. We have this great [00:02:00] game we play called The Music Game and it’s really fun.
Todd: I know. Part of me wants to like bring it up in the, um, on this podcast because it, there’s always a little bit of controversy with The Music Game.
Cathy: Yes.
Todd: Usually between you and Chris Lozier. Yes. Well,
Cathy: not really. It wasn’t between he and I this time. Yeah, it
Todd: was him against everybody, basically.
Cathy: Well, you know, yeah, it’s pretty extreme.
Cathy: But we all have, so all of us, meaning my, my best friend, Manisha, and her husband, Chris, and then Todd. Um, we all have very strong opinions about music and we’re not all the same and, um, we have different perspectives on, you know, what’s most important, what song is most relevant, whatever it may be. Like, for example, everybody, pretend you’re playing the music game with us and we ask the question, um, what is, uh, the most, what is the best song to sing while driving in a car?
Cathy: Like on a road trip? What’s the best song? Four people are going to come up with four [00:03:00] very different answers, and you kind of have to defend your position. Yeah. So this can lead to some really, um, interesting conversations about what’s most important. Like, we got into a big argument about what makes a hit.
Cathy: Yes. Because they were talking about one hit wonders, and then we were all kind of, kind of, everybody who’s bringing up their one hit wonder song. Um, you know, someone else may say, well, that really wasn’t their only hit. There was another hit. And then we had to debate what a hit means versus what a, you know, just having a lot of streams means.
Cathy: And I’m going to go ahead and just, so this was the song that was, we were debating. Goatee, uh, somebody that you used to I think is People consider this a one hit wonder.
Todd: Yeah, it’s, I would stand proudly and say that this is absolutely a one hit wonder. Yes. What’s the name of the song that Chris thinks was
Cathy: awesome?
Cathy: I Todd’t even know. Cause I, he played it a few times, but he’s like, no, Gotye has other songs. And we’re like, well, of course he does, but he doesn’t have any other hits.
Todd: Yes.
Cathy: And then [00:04:00] we debated what that means.
Todd: Cause he pulled the amount of streams. Yes.
Cathy: He was like, look at how many times this song has been streamed.
Cathy: Yes. But then we, we compared like somebody that you used to know has been streamed like a billion times. Yeah. Compared to like half a million. That’s not the same. So we have these debates, um, And it’s fun. It is. And, and they’re not, nobody’s right or wrong. It’s a debate. Well, I’m usually right. Well, I always, we all think we’re right.
Cathy: I think with my knowledge of music, I think I’m right. With your knowledge of music, you think you’re right. We also have different tastes, like I’m, I like a lot of things, but I’m very enmeshed with the pop world, right? I know a lot of pop music and a lot of that kind of thing. And Todd very much likes old classics and Chris is bluegrass and he also, he knows a lot of music, classic as well, but, and then Manisha is more like me.
Cathy: So we’re, we all kind of have, Different perspectives on music.
Todd: It’s a fun game. It’s a fun game and, uh, We’re going to patent
Cathy: it.
Todd: Yeah, we’re going to patent it. We’re going to, we’re going to make a, um, An app? Yeah. One of these days, sweetie.
Cathy: [00:05:00] Someday, with our free time. We’ll
Todd: put that on our list of things to do.
Cathy: Sometimes Todd and I, we’ll be like, what do we want to focus on? And the list gets a little extensive. Yes.
Todd: Um, okay. So the sub stack, this is my, uh, musical inspiration for what you wrote about. Okay, let’s hear it. Are you ready? Oh
no, it’s the same. It’s a brick, you know.
Cathy: Alright, there we go. Okay, so, music game. My, the sub stack I wrote, and if you scroll below you can read it, but it’s called The Pressure to Conform. So tell me why you chose The Wall. Uh,
Todd: I’ve seen that movie a bazillion times, watched it in high school. Uh, not on drugs, I will add.
Todd: Everyone’s like, you gotta be on drugs to watch that movie. Turns out you Todd’t.
Cathy: No, I watched it not on drugs. Yeah.
Todd: Um, it reminds me of this part of the movie where all the kids are on this like plank walking into this and I think they have like [00:06:00] weird things on their heads and they all look the same. So conformity.
Todd: And then they drop themselves into like a meat grinder. Grindr. And then you hear, see sausage come out at the end. Correct. Um, and obviously the, the metaphor of the wall, all the bricks are kind of the same. So I think this is Roger Waters, um, effort. Roger Waters effort in just, um, saying he’s not going to, and he never has been somebody that conforms.
Todd: He is pretty rebellious and pretty radical with some of his opinions. And, um, we as kids, um, are, you know, sit, sit quietly in your, in your desk. Think about what we, what school is, basically. We have to sit at our desk for 45 minutes, we go to 7 or 8 meetings that day, none of which we want to be there, uh, not none, but many of us Todd’t want to be at most of those meetings.
Todd: That’s more than I could say about my day. Usually my day is surrounded by things that I want to do. Um, so it’s just the idea of Um, everybody fall [00:07:00] into line and Todd’t have an independent thought.
Cathy: Okay, so few things. Number one, um, when I think of, you know, the wall, I think of the bricks being our defense mechanisms that we build up over time.
Cathy: So I think the bricks have a lot of, um, it’s our trauma that we’ve experienced where we’ve become a different person. And our willingness to, to extend or reach out or trust or even be with ourselves, because a lot of it is about taking drugs and numbing ourselves out to the world. So I think the wall has many levels, but I will also say that there is this gray space that I totally hear Roger Waters and like you said, we’ve, you know, follow or gone to his shows and stuff and everyone knows Roger Waters.
Cathy: So we know, you know, he’s very outspoken. Um. But there’s this gray space between because there is a reason that we have to work as a community. And it doesn’t mean we have to conform to every single little teeny thing, but we, we, we [00:08:00] can’t go into things and be like, everyone is going to do their own thing all the time.
Cathy: Because as a community, we have to recognize our connection to each other and how we work as a team.
Todd: Well, and not to go all Dax Shepard on you, but we are wired. To be able to work together so that we could survive back, whatever, 20, 000 years ago, a human being couldn’t survive by him or herself. So we have to figure out how to work together so that we can go kill the buffalo and build shelters and blah, blah, blah.
Cathy: Correct. And you’re saying Jack Shepard because you’re, you want to say as an anthropology major. That’s
Todd: right. He says that a lot.
Cathy: Um, so, but there, there’s, that’s the truth. And when I say that, I also. Um, understanding that some types of conformity become cult like behavior. And so this is the, you know, where we have to recognize that either end of the spectrum is not where we want to be.
Cathy: We want to be in that gray space where we understand the ability to work as a community. [00:09:00] And then we also understand the ability to bring our individuality to the community. So, you know, like within a family, I think of the, of our family as a little community and within the community, there’s an expectation.
Cathy: You have to put your stuff away, keep your space clean, bring your plate in, you know, be respectful of each other, be thoughtful of each other’s experiences. And at the same time, go be you, right? It doesn’t mean everyone needs to be the same within our family and dress the same and look the same and talk the same.
Cathy: Go be you. But when you’re in this community, there’s an expectation of, you know, I Todd’t even know if the word could. Formity works for that. It’s just more like community building. You have to see yourself as a piece of the puzzle and a part of the whole rather than you just get to go do whatever you want to do all the time.
Todd: Yeah. So, um, what I liked about your sub stack is, uh, you start out talking about our children. And they have these words called basic and extra and maybe for those of us who are you know, you help us understand that but then Afterwards you kind of [00:10:00] go to how we do that as grown ups. So let’s first start with Wherever you want to go, but regarding the kids basic and extra and yeah
Cathy: Well
Todd: need to conform
Cathy: and you know the pressure to conform basically what I’m talking about is, and this is part of, I have a book coming out, as I’ve said, you’re going to hear me say that a lot, because we’re going to be talking a lot.
Cathy: Every week. Get used to it. Right? This is just part of the game of selling books. I have a book coming out in January, so this comes from my book, Restoring Our Girls, or at least the ideas do. I actually wrote that this is not, I didn’t take this directly from the book, this was just yet another idea, because there are so many, um, but what I was talking about was the fact that.
Cathy: It’s not just my own daughters, but talking to girls all the time, including my college students. They, they talk about how it’s not always in their best interest to be their true selves with their friends. Which if you say that to parents, there’s a lot of, well, that’s ridiculous if they’re your friends, they accept you and you should be completely who you are and your true self.
Cathy: And notice I’m saying friends. [00:11:00] I’m talking about a group. There are plenty, like, I know a lot of girls, including, you know, my daughters, who have a best friend that they feel very, very connected to, that they feel like more than themselves with that person. But I’m talking about the group dynamic. And so what’s interesting is when you’re young, you know, a young adolescent girl to even your mid twenties, the group dynamic is a really big thing.
Cathy: You like to have a group. You like to have, these are the people I go out with. These are the people I go to homecoming with. These are the people I vacation with, whatever it may be. And they’re in within the group dynamic. What the girls tell me is it’s not always in our best interest to be our full, true selves.
Cathy: Now, why is that? Because sometimes we have a lot of feelings and thoughts and emotions about things that Todd’t work in the group dynamic. Sometimes there’s things that we want to do. To stand out and sometimes the group is like you’re standing out too much. Sometimes there are things that we say or do or that the group doesn’t [00:12:00] like.
Cathy: And these are very, the whole book, the book that I wrote is about this nuanced place that we have to understand. Okay, because There are no, you know, I can’t stand books or teachers who are like, well, you just tell your kid that they need to be their true selves and that that’s what real friends are because that that’s denying reality.
Cathy: Like there are group dynamics that are difficult to navigate and girls are learning to do that. In their teen, their pre adolescent, adolescent, teen, young adult years, and then they start to figure that out, but they’ve got to learn it. And so some of that means they will conform. What does that look like?
Cathy: Anybody listening has seen a group of girls walking down the street. It could be 12 year olds, 15 year olds, or 17 year olds, and they look like they’re wearing a uniform. Yoga pants? Crop shirt, usually black, you know, maybe a, a, you know, a shirt over it, like some kind of button down over it. [00:13:00] They dress similarly.
Cathy: A lot of girls have long hair, put it in a ponytail, you know, a lot, a lot of girls have the same sunglasses. They have the same shoes. They have, there’s a conformity to, to, to, To belong, right? There is a, I belong here.
Todd: Two things that I think will hopefully enhance the discussion. One is, I just had a flash of a memory, uh, of a TV show.
Todd: Okay. A very certain moment of a TV show. Growing
Cathy: Pains? Oh my god. You’re winning
and smiling. The best of the best. And Todd’t you cry.
Cathy: I really didn’t know you were going to pull a Growing Pains. No,
Todd: you had no idea.
Cathy: I just was, like, joking. I just
Todd: remember, um, Carol Siever? Yeah. Was that her name? Carol. Bob? Uh, no, Carol was the girl, the daughter.
Cathy: Uh, I think it’s, I think Carol was the mom. No, I Todd’t think so. But keep going. Go ahead and look it up.
Todd: Yeah. I just remember, let’s say it was Carol, whatever. The mom in that show was, she was talking to Mike, because Mike was a good kid, [00:14:00] but also got into trouble with his buddies, Boner and whatever the other guy’s name was.
Todd: Carol was Tracy Gold, the girl, and Maggie Seaver. Maggie Seaver. Good job, sweetie. Um, she was saying to Mike Seaver, Kirk Cameron’s character, The more there are of you, she’s talking about him and his friends. The dumber you get, which I think is hilarious and also very true as a person who also conformed with his friends and we would go out and cause trouble in the neighborhood and the more there were of us, the less, the more risky we became.
Cathy: Well, and we know this, like, take it off of our kids, like, this is what happens with You know, a group of people walking down the street or like a political movement or a sometimes the more people, the dumber we can get as far as the choices that we’re making because of the group pressure or the, the perceived group pressure.
Cathy: You know, sometimes we feel like we’re supposed to be doing something and I think that’s definitely the case. Yeah. Um, and, you know, and [00:15:00] sometimes the conformity, it’s not hurting anybody. There is a, you know, are girls wanting to wear a certain kind of dress or have a certain kind of shoes? We can all relate to that.
Cathy: Every, every generation has, They’re Gloria Vanderbilt’s, and they’re Calvin Klein’s, and they’re Converse shoes, and they’re, you know, um, whatever. What were
Todd: some things, is that what you did? Some Michael
Cathy: Jordan shoes, or some, yeah, I’m trying to bring in a bunch of different, you know, Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, you know, the Boomers, what did they want?
Cathy: What did the Boomers want? Hoop skirts with poodles on them?
Todd: Food? I
Cathy: Todd’t know. Food. Food? That’s the Depression era. Okay, sorry. Yeah, Boomer, that’s the silent generation. But like, you know, what did they want? You know, what, what is the thing that everybody wants? Because it makes them feel like they belong to their generation.
Cathy: And they’re, and to shame our girls, like the, the most important thing about this conversation for us as parents is to shame our girls or boys for doing these things doesn’t [00:16:00] make any sense. Right? You can have a discussion about it. You can keep it in, in, in. The discussion alive, meaning talking to them about how they feel about it.
Cathy: Because there will be points when conformity can go too far. Thus, parents always saying, if your friends jumped off a bridge, would you do it too? You know, really flippant things like that. But these conversations. Is, is how our girls and our guys learn to navigate this. What are my limits with conformity?
Todd: Sweetie, do you remember my story of my friend Tim Devan in 6th grade? Tell me. Sister Helen was the teacher. Okay. And Sister Helen said, well if your friends jumped into the lake, would you jump into the lake? He said yeah. Tim said if the water was warm.
Cathy: Oh,
Todd: he was being a smart aleck. aleck. And it was hilarious.
Cathy: And you still remember it.
Todd: I still remember it.
Cathy: And I think that, you know, one of the most important things as far as like, when we’re talking to our girls about, um, [00:17:00] you know, you know, conformity is recognizing in ourselves, not just our youth, You know, not just way back when, um, but now how do we conform?
Cathy: And before I say that, um, one of my favorite things that, uh, a quote that a girl gave me is direct quote from her. She said, basically, if. To be friends with this big group of people, I have to be as basic as possible. Yeah, and does that mean to just fit in? Yeah, it’s almost like, let me be like a beige color.
Cathy: Now, again, for many of us parents, that’s like, no, shine bright, shine your light. Yes, all those things are true, but we can also understand why our girls are saying that. Basically, what they’re saying is if I come out too strong, Then, I risk being a bit of an outcast or being considered extra. An extra is just somebody who’s a lot, you know, like the word gives its definition away [00:18:00] pretty easy, you know?
Todd: Well, I think it’s important that as parents, um, own our own, uh, conformity as adults and as when we were children. And my, my quick story is of me conforming when I was a, a young. Boy, like, I Todd’t know, grade school, I guess. Um, I always wanted Nikes or Converse. Sure. Right? Or I guess Adidas. But if I got some off brand thing from Kmart, or whatever, like, That’s really, really rough.
Todd: Or, I played football and baseball. At the time, soccer was not cool. Now I find myself watching soccer all the time. Um, I was never going to Play soccer because it wasn’t as cool as baseball and football. So those are stories that I could share with my kid. Instead of me saying, Oh, why Todd’t you just shine your own light?
Todd: Blah, blah, blah. Um, I would assume that that would be a beneficial discussion with our kids of sharing our experience at that age.
Cathy: Exactly. And that’s the thing. It’s both. It’s both and. Everything is both and, right? It’s one thing to understand why our girls and our boys are [00:19:00] conforming, to relate to it, like Todd said, to bring in your own stories.
Cathy: It’s also part of our job to talk about, but who you are. Is fantastic. And your uniqueness and your individuality is what makes you, you. Now that doesn’t mean tomorrow they’re going to go to school and be totally different. What you’re doing is you’re planting seeds for them as they mature. And as they kind of, you know, age out of needing to.
Cathy: You know, be like everybody else in a group because it’s, it’s child developmentally appropriate, right? So the, the whole like idea of that, we are going to push our girls through that door really quickly. They have to go through the process of learning this process. You know, like how do I negotiate with conformity?
Cathy: How do I do this, but not do that? How does it feel? This is what I conform, and sometimes it feels great and sometimes it feels bad. And this is part of growing up. And I, what I, I just Todd’t, you know, something I say a lot in the book is we just have [00:20:00] to really remember when we have our adult glasses on.
Cathy: We as adults have already gone through that phase, so we see it very clearly and easily. And a lot of times we’re like, I Todd’t want you to have to go through what I went through. Well, in some cases that’s true. We Todd’t have to, maybe our kids Todd’t have to go through everything we went through.
Cathy: Developing adolescents, we Todd’t get to push them through that. They have to go through that, which is why we need to take care of ourselves during that process. Because we Todd’t get to, A, look away from it because we have to be there and support, but B, we also Todd’t have permission to tell them, you know, you shouldn’t be conforming, you shouldn’t be caring what your friends think.
Cathy: Are you joking? Of course they care. It’s understanding and also giving them the space. To remember that their individuality is beautiful. It’s a lot of both. And so the example I give and Todd, you just gave a great example, but I talked about how, you know, when [00:21:00] girls, when they feel like they’re, they’re going to be extra.
Cathy: And I want to just say this to balance out this discussion. Another girl said to me, sometimes being extra gives, gives you points. Like sometimes some extra, exactly. Like sometimes some, it’s typically not a, um, someone calls you extra. It’s not a compliment, but sometimes someone who’s super extra, like super funny, super out there, super brave, that kind of extra.
Cathy: So again, everything’s real nuanced, but you know, one of the things that they’re really doing is toning themselves down, right? To fit in. That’s what we do. That’s what I mean by beige. It’s
Todd: less risky to, uh, it’s, it’s less risky to be beige.
Cathy: Yes. And so they talk about, I’m keeping myself in, I’m toning myself down.
Cathy: I’m, I’m, I’m being what people expect me to be. And the, you know, analogy I gave for us women, um, is why, Is like one of the most profitable industries, shapewear, right? What is shapewear? Shapewear is [00:22:00] wearing something really tight on your body to keep yourself in. So you are pleasant externally to the external, you know, like the society is telling you suck it in Latin out.
Cathy: And so we’re having the same experience as them. Even some of the same language is being used. And, you know, we Todd’t need to shame ourselves. I have some, I have Spanx and Skims. I have both. Difference. Uh, Spanx is made by Sarah, what’s her name? I can’t remember, but she’s the one who created it, and Skims is made by Kim Kardashian.
Cathy: They’re just two different brands. And they both have, like, I Todd’t have a lot of it, but, you know, there’s certain dresses that I wear that it helps, right? It helps, you know, you can wear that dress, right? But even that belief system right there. I could wear the dress without it. But society doesn’t like bumps.
Cathy: It doesn’t like lumps. It wants a flat stomach. It wants smaller hips. It’s, it’s very about be [00:23:00] less, right? Be smaller. And so anybody who is like, I’m going to wear this sucking in body suit, you can relate to your girls who are not being their full selves. Cause we do it all the time.
Todd: Yeah. Um, and, uh, I just, I like loose clothing, I wear boxers, I wear shorts, and what’s it like to go through a, whatever, um, some dinner party where you’re sucking everything in?
Todd: Like, I Todd’t think I’d be able to even be present, because I would always be annoyed at too tight of clothing. And I know you guys have been doing it forever, so you’re used to it, but I, my honest question is, like, how bad does it suck to wear loose clothing? The really tight stuff.
Cathy: Well, it depends and it depends on the length of time.
Cathy: Like I can only speak for myself and, and you know, notice, you know, like I try not to wear that stuff and not because I’m trying to, you know, [00:24:00] not go with society. I just try and wear clothes where I Todd’t have to do that, like wear Spanx or skims. I’d say the only time that I really wear shapewear is if we’re going to a wedding and I have to wear a certain kind of dress, or maybe at the conference, you know, like something where I’m going to be in front of people and it’s just.
Cathy: It just like, you know, tightens you up, right? Um, is it comfortable? No. Is it better when it’s the end of the day and I’m taking it off? Yes. I also feel that way about bras. And I struggle as a woman who has, um, a larger bra than many people. Um, it’s hard to find bras that are I feel like you’ve been looking for the perfect bra.
Cathy: My whole life. Yeah. Since I met you. My whole life. I have been a, um, I am a 34 double D. So, it is, and I went through most of my life, um, like in high school and early college thinking I was like a 36C, wondering why bras didn’t fit. And then I finally, someone’s like, you are not a C.
Todd: Yeah, I remember you got fitted by that lady [00:25:00] and she’s like, oh, you Todd’t know what you are.
Todd: Totally made
Cathy: fun of me. She was like, what are you thinking?
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: Um, so. That is not an, and there are plenty of women who are much bigger than me. Um, and then there are women who are much smaller who feel that they need something extra to fit into a dress. Like all of us are critical of whatever we have.
Cathy: So I’m not being, um, I’m not being as critical of myself as I am. recognizing that bras can be super uncomfortable for women who are more top heavy. You know what I mean? They’re, they pull at your back, they dig into your skin, and it’s very hard to cover all those bases of not having, you know, your chest hanging down and also feeling like you have enough, you know, um, support where you can walk around and also not having your shoulders hurt.
Cathy: It’s a, it’s a very You know, it’s a woman’s experience, right? And so I do my best to not have to do too much of that. Um, but I am not immune from it. I have it. And, [00:26:00] and it is, but you know, I, as I’ve gotten older, you have more understanding of your body, more body acceptance. And there are certain trends.
Cathy: I’m not even going to, I’m not even going to try like, no, thank you. Like I am not going to wear certain things because I know that won’t work for me. Whereas when I was young, I wanted to do what everybody was doing. Right. But I Todd’t do that anymore.
Todd: Right. I’m
Cathy: 52, you know?
Todd: Um, I Todd’t know if I should play this clip, but it’s, tell me if I should play this clip.
Todd: Have
you ever considered wearing something for support? Mind you, this is just a prototype. You want me to wear a bra? No, no. A bra is for ladies. Meat? The bro.
Todd: I Todd’t think that quite picked up. The bro. The bro.
Cathy: Well, there was a 30 Rock episode where one of the guys was wearing a bra, remember? I Todd’t remember that one.
Cathy: I mean, I can understand why some men make the same thing. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it’s just [00:27:00] it’s a you know your mom you Your mom used to like, as soon as she walked in the door would take that bra off and just throw it on the couch. Oh yeah. And
Todd: she would celebrate it.
Cathy: She’d be like, goodbye. As do I at night, you know, it’s like, goodbye.
Cathy: And so we, you know, there are things that are necessary to wear just to be comfortable. Like think about how difficult, you know, now I do yoga where it’s a lot slower, but you know, when I used to run or bike, I did finding a bra to run in, And I know people are going to throw a bunch of like, I’m going to get emails saying, try this, try this.
Cathy: I will listen to you. I also want you to know, I, I mean, Todd, how many things have I tried? Like I, all of them, like everybody I get, you know, all these things marketed at me.
Todd: So I want to just, uh, so, uh, this is a little bit, uh, self serving, but what, so, Whenever I go to a business, um, convention, you know, just a boring white collar business [00:28:00] thing that a lot of men and women have to do.
Todd: Think about the amount of conformity, like what’s, you got to wear business casual or, you know, or if you go to a wedding, it’s black tie only. Like it’s all conformity. And one way I have, because I’m a little bit older and I, Todd’t care as much. Um, I have not worn, I call them school shoes, like brown loafers or whatever it is, because I like my, um, Expensive running, walking shoes.
Todd: So I always wear my Adidas Ultraboost or something like that. And I also wear jeans to all my business conferences now. And a lot of people are like, hey, dude, do you know that it’s business casual recommended? I’m like, yeah, I do. And, um, I’m choosing to wear my jeans and my gym shoes here for two reasons.
Todd: One is I feel more comfortable. I feel more like myself when I’m wearing my jeans and when I’m wearing my gym shoes. And I also think that we’re an aging industry and we need to tap into the younger crowd. And the younger crowd, you know, I can only imagine what a 25 year old kid, [00:29:00] boy or girl walks into one of our conventions and sees a bunch of White guys in suits?
Todd: Middle white, middle, middle aged white people wearing, you know, their tan pants and their terrible collared shirts and all that. So that’s one. Now I conform many other ways, so I’m not trying to. But that is one way I’m like just swimming against the current.
Cathy: Well, I really appreciated about, I Todd’t know, it could be a decade ago now, but I remember, um, you know, I would have to go do presentations all the time.
Cathy: And, you know, giving a presentation on a stage, you have to be so thoughtful about what you’re saying. What you’re wearing, right? Are you comfortable? But you also want to be appropriate. And when Brene Brown started speaking, doing speaking engagements, she made a decision to wear jeans. And there was something about it that even if it didn’t change the industry per se, it changed me.
Cathy: Because I’m like, okay, I’m I get to, cause I’m much more of a jeans person. I love dresses. I really do. Um, but if I’m presenting, there’s, there’s [00:30:00] something, it’s just easier to wear jeans. You know. And wouldn’t you wear a jean jacket too? Often. Yeah. Like basically what she said is I’m going to wear, I’m going to present in what I wear normally.
Cathy: Yeah. Rather than try and show up with this perfect outfit. You know, where everybody’s like, yeah, that’s it. To your point, like the, the uniform, I’m putting that in air quotes of someone who’s giving a presentation and it really freed me and I started speaking, um, wearing, and I, they look good. It’s not like I’m messy, but it’s just a little, it’s, it’s like you, it’s not as professional.
Cathy: Like sometimes I’d wear a jacket with it, a blazer or whatever, so you can dress it up. But, um, these are, and you know, it’s interesting cause you brought up Dax before I was just listening to he and Monica. Just after their show this week, they were talking about going to a dinner party and Monica was saying, well, you know, we’re going to dress up for the dinner party.
Cathy: And he’s like, yeah, I Todd’t do that. I Todd’t dress up. And she’s like, but if someone tells you to dress up, you need to dress up. And he’s like, that doesn’t make any sense to [00:31:00] me. He’s like, okay, it’s one thing. If I’m going to somebody goes for my work, if I have to wear a suit for work, he goes, but if I’m going to someone’s dinner party, why would I wear something?
Cathy: To appease somebody in their home. Yeah. And he, you know, he contends, again, the anthropology part, it’s a class system. Yeah. That wearing certain clothes is what differentiates us from each other. Like you have money, you Todd’t. So he was trying to make the point of, I Todd’t want to play that game.
Yeah.
Cathy: And, you know, that’s kind of the discussion of like, why are we wearing what we’re wearing?
Cathy: I have a lot of people, friends, acquaintances who stay really close to trends. They make sure they have the right thing. They make sure they have the right brand. And I really do believe that many of them like it. And I also believe a lot of them think they have to. And this is the nuance place with our girls, right?
Cathy: This is the conversation that I’m talking about is when are you appeasing the masses? Bye. And when are you helping, you know, supporting yourself?
Todd: Well, and the one place that I will [00:32:00] choose to conform is whenever I go to, we Todd’t, you and I Todd’t go to church regularly, but if, and when I ever feel like I’m going to a church, whether it’s for a funeral or something like that.
Todd: Like I will always, and I Todd’t know, I feel like that is when I should remove whatever personal needs I have aside. I feel like there’s something sacred going on in funerals, wakes, Church services, things like that. Um.
Cathy: And, and I will, it’s not necessarily a pushback. It’s just my opinion. I think you do that because of your grandma.
Cathy: I’m sure you’ve got that in your head. Yeah.
Todd: I Todd’t know where it comes from, but it’s just something I choose. You’ve
Cathy: told me that your grandma would say,
Todd: go get dressed up and you would for her. Well, yeah, because it was Sunday. Correct. We weren’t even going to church. That’s God’s day. So, and on Sundays we get dressed up.
Cathy: Thus my point is you have that in your head of that’s the right thing to do, which I’m not pushing back. I think that’s beautiful. At, at the same time, plenty of people go to wakes in [00:33:00] jeans. That’s not a problem. Like, you’re not going there to seen and be seen. You’re going there to pay your respects. And I, you know, unfortunately I’ve been to a lot of wakes lately, including my parents and I wasn’t like, you didn’t dress up for this.
Cathy: Like anybody who’s stopping by, you’re like, thank you for being here. Those things are not. And so that’s kind of what I mean is like, there are, I think it’s very personal and individual. And I do think that if, um, There are certain situations, especially if it’s a work situation, where if someone’s asking you, this is what we do.
Cathy: Like, I mean, this is a dumb one, but like my daughter, Jaycee, used to work at York Theater here in town, which is the movie theater. And they wear these cute little bow ties and
Todd: white shirt and a black bow tie.
Cathy: It’s like, and that’s a uniform, right? And she’s not going to be like, I’ll only work here if I Todd’t have to wear this.
Cathy: Like she’s going to wear the uniform. And that’s what we do in a lot of jobs. There’s a uniform that’s expected. And then there are times that we get to, um, you know, play with our own fashion and, and what’s, what’s [00:34:00] best for us. And I think that that is, to me, there, I have no answers for anybody. It’s just an interesting conversation.
Cathy: It’s just, why do we do what we do?
Todd: Sweetie, I got another uniform clip. Okay. I’m ready. We need to talk about your flair.
Really? I have 15 pieces on. I, well, okay. 15 is the minimum. Okay. Okay. Now, you know, it’s up to you whether or not you want to just do the bare minimum or, uh, Well, like Brian, for example, has 37 pieces of flair, okay?
That terrific smile.
Cathy: Okay, so you want me to wear more?
Look, Joanna, people can get a cheeseburger anywhere, okay? They come to Tchotchkes for the atmosphere and the attitude, okay? That’s what the flair is about. It’s about fun. Sweetie,
Cathy: it’s about fun. Sweetie, I really Todd’t want to talk about my flair.
Todd: Um, should we tell the people what that’s from?
Todd: From
Cathy: Office Space. It is. [00:35:00] That’s a good Jennifer Aniston clip and it makes me laugh because she’s like, oh. Okay, like she’s just like, tell me what to wear so I know what to wear. It’s such a game. And that’s what I mean. It’s like, it’s so, so much of it is dumb. And let me, let me talk about that as far as raising our children.
Cathy: So often we want to uphold structures so much. I hope that sentence sounded right, that we like go along with the structure and tell our girls or our boys that they’re wrong for thinking the way that they do. Meaning like let me use something like school. Okay. I love school. I’m a teacher. I’m an educator, you know, blah blah blah I love school, but there are some dumb rules in school the fact that our children sit for eight hours a day and They Todd’t get to move around when really the way that they are memory takes hold as if their body’s moving The way that they can actually get out their energy as if their body’s moving and I understand someone may say well Todd How do we do that?
Cathy: I Todd’t know. I just know [00:36:00] that You And so with my girls, when they’re like, I had to sit all day, I’m not like, well, that’s school. You should get used to it. I say, I know it blows. And that is also part of what you have to do. Like it’s this, we can understand the system. And even question the system occasionally and also teach our children to understand why we need to do this right now.
Cathy: That yes, it’s difficult. Yes, it’s hard, but here’s what the rules are at this point. And we have to, you know, as Todd and I’ve shared before, we’ve Talk to our girls about that school can sometimes be a game, and you just have to learn how to play it, and you have to, if you end up spending all of your time, you know, um, arguing with why things are the way they are, it’s exhausting.
Cathy: Yeah, the
Todd: reason I like, uh, when we say school is a game and some people be upset,
Cathy: no, this is, you know, yeah,
Todd: um, whenever we treat anything too serious, whether it’s about school, or relationships, or work, or [00:37:00] career. I just think it’s a wonderful, uh, for me, it’s like, okay, how serious am I taking this right now?
Todd: And can I look at this more as a silly little game in the big, you know, experience of life?
Cathy: Yeah. And, you know, for example, what is, how do Todd and I use that with our girls? You have to go. Part of the game is you have to show up. Obviously, if you’re feeling sick or if there’s mental health or an issue in the family, of course you stay home.
Cathy: But there, you go to school. You know, when the girls were getting ready for college, because we have two girls in college, part of what we explain to them about the game is, go to class, I know sometimes you’re not going to want to go and you’re on your own, so you’re gonna have to figure it out. But if you go to class, there’s so many other things you Todd’t have to worry about because so much of our college energy is expended on not going to class, then figuring out how to get notes, figuring out how to turn something in, figuring out what the professor wants.
Cathy: So avoid all that. Just go. And then you’re going to have more, you know, so. Our [00:38:00] way of calling it a game isn’t about minimizing it, it’s can
Todd: we treat this a little bit more lightly.
Cathy: Correct. It’s about not holding it so tight and also respecting the institution of education. Maybe some of the rules are silly, but education’s important.
Cathy: Well, and just
Todd: like, let’s stay here for just a second. I think that, um, we as parents, I’ll speak for the collective, uh, something happens. Your kid screws up. It seems like the world is going to kind of end in that moment. And, um, if, if, if we can remind ourselves that at the end of the day, A year from now, this is going to be a blip on the radar.
Todd: Now there’s some very serious things that we do need to concern ourselves over, but I judge that I, or we collectively spend way too much taking things super serious when in fact it’s not at all.
Cathy: Yeah. Or we just Todd’t have that gray space. We just think everything. is [00:39:00] so important and so vital. And if we miss it, if we mess up, if we fail, everything’s over and not at all.
Todd: I sometimes struggle with, uh, the belief, like sometimes I think everything matters, like everything matters. And then I go the other way, I’m like, actually none of this matters.
Cathy: Which is, I think you’re correct, in both. Everything matters. You know, it’s just like, this is, this is the fun of life, everybody.
Cathy: It’s the paradox. That’s why this is called Zen Parenting Radio, just in case anyone was ever wondering. It’s because we understand you’re living in the paradox of life, which is a lot of what Zen is. you know, explains. And you know, we are, everything is important and nothing is important and we are very special and we are not special at all.
Cathy: Like, all of these things are true. And our ability to live with humanity Is our ability to negotiate and navigate that like to know when to ease off and when to move in and you know, guess what? [00:40:00] You’re not going to do it right all the time. Cameron and I were just having a conversation this morning about this.
Cathy: You know, we’re talking about politics. We’re talking about all these kind of things. And I, something happened where somebody made a mistake. And I was saying the thing that’s hardest about. Your age, like, you know, I, I mean basically it’s like 12 through 25. Why is it hard to raise kids in that window? Um, and maybe beyond, um, is you have to learn through mistakes and it sucks and I’m not gonna put.
Cathy: Set up the mistake for you so you learn it. People just learn because you can tell them everything you want to tell them, but they have to experience it a lot of the time. It’s something, it was interesting, my mom used to say that to me all the time. I think I understand what she was seeing more, but I didn’t necessarily agree with her.
Cathy: She would say to me, Todd, I would tell you things, but what I realized is you just needed to learn it. Where I felt like I was a pretty good listener. I w I, but I did get in trouble enough [00:41:00] that she’s like, you were partly listening, but you also needed to experience something to get it into your skull.
Todd: Well, going through the paradox, um, in one way, Talk is cheap because you have to experience something. And then the other thing is like, words matter. Like you have another
Cathy: paradox. Exactly. Like my parents did not waste their breath by sharing with me, Hey, these are good choices. Or why Todd’t you go? They weren’t wasting their time.
Cathy: But it doesn’t mean that our kids are going to do everything we say because they have to learn how to individuate. And they have to, they can’t. Feel it in their bones yet until they experience it. And so, and here’s the thing, everybody, for those of you who are like, well, I hope my kid does everything I tell them, then they aren’t developing their individuality or their critical thinking.
Cathy: So no matter which way you turn, there’s something that needs to be learned. And this is why we as a society love certainty. You know, we love the idea of certainty. This person’s going [00:42:00] to save us. This religion is correct. This is what everybody should be wearing. We love that certainty because it makes us feel safer, but that’s just a, that’s just a mirage.
Cathy: Yeah. There’s no certainty. And that’s another part of Zen, you know, understanding that things change. There is no certainty. What you can be certain about, though, is your ability to navigate uncertainty. That’s all we’re
Todd: trying
Cathy: to do. Shift that thinking.
Todd: Help our kids and ourselves in uncertainty. Some people love uncertainty.
Todd: Most of us, not so much.
Cathy: Well, we’ve talked about those examples. People like uncertainty when it’s something like a surprise party. But they Todd’t love uncertainty when it’s something like, hey, guess what? You have to move out of your house. Yeah. You know, and all of a sudden you didn’t know that was going to be something you had to do.
Cathy: Like we, we Todd’t like things. We like things that bring us more joy. Those are called surprises. Surprises, right? But the things that we wouldn’t, but again, what I always, what Todd and I talk about between ourselves, but also what I [00:43:00] share with my girls is especially when goes something, when something goes bad or wrong or not the way they expected, what I let them know is I believe in your ability to get through this.
Cathy: And I will support you. I’m not going anywhere, but I know that you can navigate pain. I know you can navigate grief. I know you can navigate failure, but it sucks.
Todd: And it’s uncomfortable.
Cathy: It’s uncomfortable. Painful. And I am not going to pretend it’s not, and I’m also not going to tell you to jump over it.
Cathy: Yeah. You got to go through it, and it’s uncomfortable for all of us, and it makes me go bleh. Um, so anything else that we want to share that you wanted to share about this? No, I think that’s good. Um, so I would, like I said, scroll down to read The Pressure to Conform and also to, um, subscribe to my sub stack.
Cathy: It’s free. Um, it comes to you every Friday morning and, um, you know, I enjoy writing.
Todd: It’s really good, sweetie. Thank you. Um, and I want to say thanks to Jeremy Kraft. He’s a bald headed beauty. He does painting and remodeling throughout the Chicagoland area. 630 [00:44:00] 956 1800. Um, and We’ll see you next Tuesday.
Todd: Keep truckin Have a good week.
