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Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 770. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is that the best predictor of child’s well being is a parent’s self understanding.
Todd: On today’s show, I decided I’m going to share something real brief towards the beginning.
Cathy: Can I share what the content though is? Yeah. Why don’t you So, it’s like I’ve kind of figured out that it’s about being who you are, where you are. So, should we call it be where you are, or be who you are, or be who you where you are?
Todd: Who where you are. Should we create a Be who you are and where you are.
Cathy: Yes, be who you are and where you are. That’s kind of what I’m, I’m going to talk [00:01:00] about when it comes to being where, where we are in this space and time. All
Todd: right. All right. Um, but before we get to there, um, you wrote something on your sub stack about grief.
Todd: I did. And instead of having you memorize, uh, summarize it, I’m just going to play a clip that you shared at the beginning of that piece.
Todd: Okay.
Todd: From Swingers.
Todd: Okay.
Todd: And here we go. Watch. Oh, I should probably say, so this is Mikey and whatever Mikey’s friend’s name is. Mikey, uh, is, uh, really having a hard time letting go of a breakup he had.
Todd: Mm
Todd: hmm.
Todd: And then his buddy’s trying to console him. I think it’s Rob. Rob, Ron Livingston is his name. I don’t know. Isn’t
Cathy: his name Rob in the movie? I don’t know. We’ll figure
Todd: it out.
Clip: You’re gonna get over it.
Clip: How did you get over it? I mean, how, how long did it take? I
Clip: sometimes it still hurts. You know how it is, man. It’s like [00:02:00] you wake up every day and it hurts a little bit less, and then you wake up one day and it doesn’t hurt at all. And the funny thing is, is that, this is kind of weird, but it’s like, it’s like you almost miss that pain.
Clip: You miss the pain.
Clip: Yeah, for the same reason that you miss her, because you, you lived with it for so long.
Todd: Alright, there’s Mikey.
Cathy: Yeah, Rob is his name.
Todd: Um, so
Cathy: Okay, I find that scene really, I, before you go on to my, um, my sub stack. I always love that scene because you see how they switch places. There’s like an energy change.
Cathy: Mikey’s been stuck in his apartment. He’s totally dealing with the loss of this relationship that he thought he could somehow salvage, even though they were in two different states and Rob comes over and is basically like, dude, get up, see your life. You’re not recognizing what’s working. [00:03:00] And all of a sudden Rob takes a minute and goes back and realizes he shares that thing, like sometimes you miss the pain and it’s right then that Mikey reaches for an apple and he hasn’t eaten in days.
Cathy: And he slices the apple and takes a bite and then says, you missed the pain. And all of a sudden it’s like role reversal, like where Rob is like really feeling it again. And then Mikey, after Rob says that Mikey stands up and kind of pats him on the back and is ready to go again. And Rob is kind of sitting there like, Oh yeah, this grief, I haven’t thought about in a long time.
Cathy: So I think it’s just, I don’t know if it was. Written to do that, but I just always thought it was a really interesting shift in roles.
Todd: Well, and we did a whole pop culturing on Swingers. There’s another role reversal in that movie, which is much bigger, which is T is the one who is so cool and everybody loves and has all of his stuff together and Mikey is just melting down left and right and at the end of the movie, there’s a role reversal.
Todd: Yeah, [00:04:00] T looks like an idiot. Right. And Mikey is cool.
Cathy: Mm hmm.
Todd: So anyways, um,
Cathy: Yeah, so the, I, so it’s kind of a funny story about this sub stack because what happened was a couple weeks ago was Father’s Day, so I don’t know if all of you get like emails from Facebook where it’ll say, um, here’s a memory, or if you go on Facebook, it’ll say at the top, here’s a memory from however many years ago.
Cathy: I get them from all over the place. I get them from Shutterfly, Shutterfly. Like, do you ever, do you know what I mean by Shutterfly, Todd? Do you know what that is? Um,
Todd: that’s where you order pictures.
Cathy: Yeah, and I used to use that all the time when the girls were little. And so I get these things like, here’s your memories from Shutterfly.
Cathy: And then I also get these memory, and I always send them to you guys, like, oh. And then I get these memories from Facebook. And I got a memory last week of this sub stack. I mean, it wasn’t a sub stack then. It was just a, something I wrote the week of Father’s Day. About my dad because my dad had died two weeks prior and I didn’t write it as a blog I just wrote it as a post.
Cathy: So I didn’t have any [00:05:00] copy of this. I had I read it I’m like, I don’t remember writing this. I don’t it’s not in any of my you know, it’s not a document It’s something do you remember old school? We would just write like really long posts in Facebook. Yeah, I do Yeah, and so I was like, oh, that’s so interesting because it captures so well what grief felt like for me.
Cathy: And, um, actually, um, one of the things I write in there is how annoying it is when you’re in grief, you’ve lost somebody, you’re in pain or something’s going on with your kid or whatever. And all the people around you are like running around getting to appointments and doing things and being busy and how annoying those people are because you’re like frozen in time.
Cathy: And one of my girlfriends on Friday night, she’s like, I read your thing. She’s like, you know, I loved it and I shared it with a bunch of people. She’s like, and you know what? I was one of those people who’s running around, wasn’t I? And I was like, well, there were a lot of people. But I appreciated her being like, I did not slow down for you.
Cathy: And [00:06:00] she’s like, I, cause I remember at that time, she was like, well, it was, I think it was about my dad’s funeral or something. She’s like, well, I’m going to try and get there at this time. And, but I have this going on. And I remember being like, how are we discussing this? How are you like debating when you’re going to come?
Cathy: Like it. Because in my world everything had stopped. I’m not saying she’s bad or wrong. It’s just when someone’s in grief You just have to remember they’re frozen in time and they’re very much not worried about the appointment you have tomorrow Yeah, so it was so that’s what I wrote. I I just copied that and put that
Todd: in and I thought that was a wonderful Well, so how would somebody subscribe to your sub stacks?
Cathy: Uh, well, I would just say if you’re on, if you’re listening to this podcast on your phone, just scroll down and there will be a link, right, Todd? Do you ever link it up?
Todd: Every single week.
Cathy: Yeah. So you just go there and then it’ll say, you know, you want to subscribe to this. You put your email in. It only, I only do it once a week, so it’ll only show up in your inbox on Fridays.
Cathy: So it’s not an annoying. Nuisance. It’s just every week I write something that [00:07:00] is hopefully inspiring or helpful.
Todd: And for now, it’s free. Some people charge. You have chosen not to charge so far. Not
Cathy: right now. You’re
Todd: getting, you’re getting persuaded by some other friends of ours that are saying, yeah, you should
Cathy: charge.
Cathy: But right now it’s free. So if you want it, get in there.
Todd: So, before we get into the main thing, which is novelty and ordinary. Keep the main
Cathy: thing, the main thing. The
Todd: main
Cathy: thing.
Todd: Um, I, I got a, an email from our friend Jason Gaddis, and I just thought it’s a kind of a nice relationship thing to just quickly talk about.
Todd: Okay. He talks about agreements, which I’m a big fan of. Yeah, I know this. I also think it’s important to know that Kathy and I don’t really have any Formal agreements within our relationship. But I think that there’s some understood of how it is that we are with one another. And some people need to be a little bit more explicit about their agreements.
Todd: I don’t think you and I are that type of couple, but there are some couples that are. So Jason just talks about the importance of agreements and through the lens, most typically [00:08:00] about conflict. So he just gives like three examples of what three healthy agreements would be for a couple that’s trying to navigate, um, Relationship.
Todd: Okay. Um, and then I’m going to have, so let me start here. Yes. Number one, we agree to learn how to embrace conflict as a normal part of close relationships. Okay. Now you’d be like, yeah, duh. But that’s not, duh. Like for me, it’s like at the beginning of our relationship, conflict was scary as all get outs.
Todd: Yeah. I will do. Anything I can to avoid it. Like falling asleep. Like falling asleep, which is what I used to do, right? I used to fall asleep when I would talk to him about deep things. And I, believe me, I still have plenty of work, but I’m getting better. Number two, we agreed to learn how to repair effectively until we’re both satisfied and spend whatever time it takes to do so.
Cathy: Yeah. I mean, I think that’s, again, a really important to me. I talk, I’m more of an external processor than Todd is. And I know that sometimes, uh, he may feel like, didn’t we already go through this? Um, [00:09:00] but especially, let me just say this. Let me just stop here for a second. If you are in a relationship where there has been some kind of betrayal, if it’s been like a, um, some kind of You know, history of some kind of affair, emotional, physical, whatever it may be, or a lying in the relationship financially, whatever it usually takes.
Cathy: the person who, who was betrayed a long time to process all of that. And they may ask the same questions over and over and over again. And the person who did the harm has to have a place, a grounding center where they can listen and, and allow those questions to be put out there. Because when someone is renegotiating a trust, when they used to have a trust and then it got completely broken down.
Cathy: And they need to like rebuild that up. That’s going to take a lot of persistence and a lot of repetition. And so I know a lot of times, you know, clients, friends, whatever, they’re like, we’ve already talked about this. Maybe [00:10:00] you have, but it’s something that needs to be discussed in not in a, I’m going to make you feel bad about this.
Cathy: It’s not about, I’m going to, you know, what’s the word Todd? Like, where you’re constantly trying to make someone feel ashamed or guilty. It’s not that it’s, I need to keep asking punitive. Yeah. Like, it’s, it’s not meant to be punitive, at least, hopefully not. It’s meant to be resolving, like read what you just read again to repair.
Todd: Uh, let’s see. Number two, we agreed to learn how to repair effectively until we’re both satisfied. And spend whatever time it takes to do so.
Cathy: Yeah, and that can be difficult for the person who’s like, I’m over this already. But the, if the other person is not, then that’s the, the agreement.
Todd: So I would say in our marriage, these first two are understood.
Todd: Absolutely. We play by those rules. Yes. This last one, I don’t think we would ever need to.
Clip: Okay.
Todd: Um, and I’m not trying to be like superior, but I just don’t see it happening. We agree not to make threats of leaving in the heat of the moment. Right. But there’s plenty of couples out there that [00:11:00] probably do that.
Todd: Absolutely.
Cathy: I actually go so far to tell Todd when I’m very upset about something. I’m not going anywhere. Like, this is not something you need to worry about. I’m not going anywhere. Let’s just figure this out. Let’s just figure this out. And I need to be annoyed or angry, so I take that, even though we’re very aware in our deepest selves, we’re not going anywhere, I say it out loud too, because the only so it can keep him grounded where he’s not like, ah, this is going to change everything.
Cathy: It’s like, no, it’s not. But I just need to, um, I just need to say these things. Well,
Todd: I would say that this is like, uh, an Achilles heel thing. Cause some people, when there’s a threat of leaving, it probably brings you back to some childhood trauma. For sure. Of mom or dad leaving. Abandonment. So, that would be, cause you and I have talked about, um, Achilles heels.
Todd: Right. And this would be one of those things. So, um.
Cathy: And it’s also like, it’s a, it’s, it’s. abandonment and you may have had a parent or a previous partner who did that to [00:12:00] you. And so people hold that as a power move as I’m going to threaten to leave or like, you’re going to miss me when I’m gone. Or other people have been interested in me or, you know, like there’s this move of like, I’m going to make you jealous or scared.
Cathy: So you give me attention. And while in the moment it may, and I’m putting this in air quotes work, it’s damaging to the relationship because you’re threatening them. You know, so it’s not ideal.
Todd: So here’s just some basic questions that Jason has to get the ball rolling. If there’s people out there that want to work on agreements in their relationship, I think that’s pretty good.
Todd: Number one, when is a realistic return time? For repair after conflict given our nervous systems. In other words like, let’s let our nervous systems settle down before we try to repair because usually repairing when we’re all jacked up is not the best idea. What do we agree about regarding money? That’s an important piece.
Todd: Um, what do we agree on what would be good for both of us [00:13:00] regarding our in laws?
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: That’s pretty good.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: Uh, what agreement would help us both to stay accountable, to do our own personal work? What agreement feels fair for both of us to keep our partnership safe and solid? Um, and so anyways, I just thought that those are some
Cathy: It’s good dinner date conversation.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: Yeah, and I just think it’s one of those things like we got married at a in a church and we didn’t have to take A class, but we met with the pastor Sherry a few times, right? Yeah, but I think if you get married like in the Catholic Church, you have to like take a marriage class Yeah, and they talk about money and in laws And at the time I’m like, I don’t want to take a stupid class, but in, you know, in retrospect, not in retrospect, but I think that that would be pretty, a pretty helpful thing.
Cathy: Maybe, but 25 years ago, I would have said very different things. They’re not, I would have been like, whatever. Great. Yeah, I’m fine with this. Like, I don’t think, even though I understand the There is for some couple couples that can be very grounding initially and then [00:14:00] with the understanding you’re gonna evolve But I think if you and I would have sat down and talked about money I would have been with a with a mediator with it being a you know, priest or whoever I think I would have been like yes Yes that that and that necessarily wasn’t what I was thinking I was just a little more, um, I didn’t have my own sense of self yet.
Cathy: And so that, as that developed, I have more opinions about money and I, and I see money in a much more, uh, pulled back way. Like I don’t, I’m not worried about Todd’s, uh, what we’d call a nickel and dimer. Um, I don’t see it that way. And I’m not, I’m not a big spender either. I want to be very clear. Cause whenever, I’m Whenever people hear like, oh, I’m this way with money and he’s the other way, it’s not a binary.
Cathy: I’m actually very, what I often call middle class in my thinking. Yeah. Like I grew up in a very like middle class, like really basic, you need the basics. And that [00:15:00] is kind of how I, that’s how I still think. Um, but I also, Sometimes, because we’re older and Todd and I have worked hard, when he’s worried about closing the window because cold air will go out and then we’re going to pay more money for air conditioning, I’m like, Todd, I need fresh air.
Cathy: And it’s okay. And this is a big picture. experience and you’re worried about the 80 more cents that we’re going to pay for this 30 minutes. That’s
Todd: right.
Cathy: 80 cents. I’ll give you 80 cents. I’ll go to the cushion outside and dig out 80 cents.
Todd: There’s not 80 cents in there. I already checked. Um, real quick. Um, a lot of couples have budgets and I hate budgets.
Todd: Can you imagine if you gave me an allowance? Well, just like, like a spending budget for both of us, not like you or me. And I hate budgets, but I think the reason I hate them is because they’re kind of a built in cheap, cheap o meter in my brain all the time.
Cathy: Yeah, if you, if you were you, and there was a budget,
Todd: we’d be in trouble.
Todd: [00:16:00] Because you, you We would be in trouble if you and I, if you had the same attitude towards money as I did. Correct. And we would be in trouble. If I, if I had the same attitude as you on money, like we balance each other out.
Cathy: Yes, we definitely balance each other out. And, and I think on both sides, I like have comments about that, which we don’t need to talk about on the show, but it’s like, I don’t think I would be a big spender without you.
Cathy: I wasn’t like, I lived single for 10 years with my own job at my own. You know, bank account in my own ability. And once I really figured things out, needed some help. Yeah. Um, you had some credit
Todd: card
Cathy: debt. I did early in my twenties. I was, things were not going swimmingly, but once I figured that out, I was very budgeted, that was old Excel spreadsheet days.
Cathy: And I would be very clear. I, I think that it’s, it’s just hard to even think about now. Cause you and I’ve been together so long and sharing our worlds. It’s
Todd: weird that some of my friends, like the happily married, But they have three accounts, three checking accounts, one for [00:17:00] husband, one for wife, and one for together.
Cathy: You know, honestly, Todd, I think that You want
Todd: to start doing that? No,
Cathy: I don’t. We’re past that. We’ve figured it out. But I think, and you know, I know my dad’s always with me. I wish my dad was here to ask. But I think he would have liked that for me. And not because of you. But he was very much Cause he knew I had learned how to handle my money and I had my own job and I’d got my, put myself through graduate school.
Cathy: And I think he saw that go. And I think, cause I’ve told you this a million times, but he really was like, keep your own credit cards.
Todd: Well, we’ve been married 22 years,
Cathy: I
Todd: think. And to this day, if I have you like sign a tax form or a. A check or whatever, a bill. You always ask me, what is this for? Yes. Which I appreciate.
Todd: And also I’m like, okay, if I was going to try to steal money from you, I would have done it by now, but that’s an important piece, I think. And I’m sure your dad taught you that. Like before you sign your name to anything, you better know what you’re [00:18:00] signing. Of
Cathy: course. And, and I did it, you know, I’ve signed leases, I’ve bought cars, like I’ve done this by myself.
Cathy: And so I know. I trust you fully and talking about, you know, in a marriage, you do start to say, I’ll handle these parts. You handle these parts and you are definitely much more in charge of the financials. So you have much more of a grip on that than I do. I do the day to day stuff, day to day stuff. At the same time, like this big picture stuff, you know, I don’t, Um, you know, nobody should sign something without knowing what they’re signing.
Cathy: So anyway, all right. That’s it. I have my own lawyer. I’m like, check on this, Todd. Okay. So I like that. Um, and I think that really, that’s just another version of healthy communication, right? That you know, I’m writing this book, everybody. I’m going to do a plug for my book right now because it’s coming out in January.
Cathy: I’m almost done with it. And it’s called Restoring Our Girls. And it is about. How to raise our girls in a [00:19:00] way where they know that they matter and that they, and how we can help shape their lives in a way that is meaningful. The big but is I don’t think what I’m sharing in the book has to just be used with girls.
Cathy: I’m, I’m talking about the female experience because I work with women and girls, so this is what I know so well, but I’m finding so much, um, general, not general, that’s not the right word, uh, Things that are, um, they, they transcend gender. Yeah. They’re not about gender. They’re universal experiences. And I think it’s just really helpful with communication.
Cathy: I think that, like, I have seen an uptick in the last five years of estrangement. Between especially moms and daughters. Okay. So an uptick, meaning there are more, um, young girls or young women who are willing to say, Mom, I’m not going to talk to you anymore. I’m done. Toxic behavior. I’m out. Okay. Um, and [00:20:00] some vice versa, but less of moms saying, you know, toxic behavior, addiction behavior.
Cathy: I’m out when it comes to my daughter.
Todd: Can I just play a little bit? Sure.
Clip: Do you know what
Todd: this is?
Cathy: No idea where you’re going. It’s just
Todd: a little Guns N Roses song called Estranged.
Cathy: Oh, yes.
Todd: Which is a really underrated Guns N Roses song. Is
Cathy: it though?
Todd: I, nobody knows about it. I
Cathy: know, so that’s why I’m like, is it underrated?
Cathy: Cause I’ve never even heard of it.
Todd: Um, well I think that’s the definition of underrated. True. What album is it on? Uh, Use Your Illusion, I think. Oh, okay. One or two. I think it’s the blue one. The one is like orange and red and the other one’s blue. I think it’s on the blue.
Cathy: Well, so Axel Rose understands a strange man.
Cathy: Yeah. And he doesn’t
Todd: talk to, uh, what’s
Cathy: his name? Slash. Slash. Right. Yeah. Just a lot of fallout. We were listening to some Imagine that. I know. And a rock band? This is my point about like writing [00:21:00] about communication because what, what I find with this, these, this estrangement issue when it comes to mothers and daughters is it’s just this in, it’s not about love.
Cathy: You know, it’s not like, it’s about, we don’t know how to communicate and when I attempt to communicate with you, it makes me feel worse or I go into a shame spiral or I get sent back to my childhood in some way and you don’t know how to communicate with me. And so I feel like we can be different people and have different needs and everything, but Can we communicate about it?
Cathy: Because it’s this inability to, it’s not lack of acceptance, like there’s these things that I hear people chalk it up to, where they’re like, you know, well, it’s just because, you know, my mom and I are so different. I’m like, well, we can be in relationship with people who are different than us. It’s the inability to communicate about it.
Cathy: That’s the problem. So
Todd: Well, it goes back to where we started, which was [00:22:00] conflict. Correct. How do we navigate conflict? How do we navigate conflict? And then conflict, if you take it one step further. Step Below Conflict is communication.
Cathy: Correct. So this book that I wrote is all about the essentials of difficult, I call them real conversations in the book.
Cathy: And then also the things our girls say to us, and they’re not saying it to you, but they’re saying it to me, about what they wish their parents knew. And how you can then take that information and make that a part of your communication with them. Um, you don’t have to inherently change everything you are to get along with somebody.
Cathy: You just have to be able to respect who they are.
Todd: Yeah. You know? I think when we’re in ego, we want them to fall into line with what we want them to be. Correct. It’s very layered. Human experience is not built that way.
Cathy: Yes. Okay. So we’re ready to move on to the next thing. Okay. So Todd wrote a, he wrote a blog for his men living newsletter.
Cathy: They put out a newsletter. You should, if you want to get the men living newsletter, scroll below and Todd will have a [00:23:00] link there as well. Um, and a lot of people write blogs for the newsletter, but Todd happened to write one last week. And what was it about?
Todd: Uh, how joy is reserved for the youth.
Cathy: Yes. Okay.
Cathy: So Todd wrote a blog about how we had gone to see you two at the sphere. And then we had, um, gone, we went to see Tim McGraw at United Center and that both experiences were awesome. We give them, we love them both, but it was missing this kind of like jazziness, like, and I don’t mean music wise. I mean, like we didn’t feel that energy we used to feel when we were young.
Cathy: And then he went to see Niall Horan, who, with my daughter, um, who’s from One Direction and you felt what? He
Todd: was so. Um, Alive. Okay. And I thought Bono and Tim, bless their heart, they’ve been doing it for decades, and how is it that we can feel just as alive doing something 30 years later from doing it? And he, now he’s been in the business for I think 10 years.
Todd: Sure. He’s been performing in front of Live, but [00:24:00] I just, he was so appreciative, and he’s like, guy, like this is so amazing, and I just didn’t feel that from the other two artists, Tim and Bono. Yeah.
Cathy: So he basically, his thought was, do we feel less joy when we’re older? And again, if you’ve seen Inside Out 2, you’ll know that that is a conversation in that movie.
Cathy: And real quick, like, is the breakdown,
Todd: was it me or was it Tim McGraw and Bono? Because it could have been like, I’ve been appreciating U2 music for 30 years too, so maybe I’m the one that can’t meet Bono where he is.
Cathy: Or, you know, something that I thought about, because we went to see Billy Joel and Stevie Nicks on Friday and it was amazing, is, you know, is it my seats?
Cathy: Is it the sex? So many
Todd: different variables. Is
Cathy: it because, I’ll tell you something, we were with like, 12, 14 people at Billy Joel’s Stevie Nicks and our seats were, were, were good as far as we could see, but they were also kind of like tight, but it was amazing because the energy [00:25:00] was so great, right?
Cathy: Everybody knew all the songs. We were all singing. We were dancing the whole time. I was exhausted. Like, it was so good and it was so hot. It was like 92 degrees. It was nuts. But I said to Todd at some point in the concert, and I whispered in his ear, I said, I’m feeling that energy we were talking about.
Cathy: Are you? And what was your answer?
Todd: Uh, before I give you my answer, this is one song he did not play.
Clip: Yes. I’m late, but I’m here right now. Though I used to be romantic. Um, I mean, I still
Todd: get goosebumps when I hear this song. The video. You gotta watch the video. I don’t. He’s been, he’s been doing piano man for 35, 40 years and he did it again and it was great.
Todd: He’s been doing turn the lights back on for six months and he didn’t do it. Like I don’t get
Cathy: it. We were all confused, but it’s also his choice, right? Totally his choice. You know, it’s a [00:26:00] hard song to sing and he couldn’t do it. Yeah. I don’t know. And maybe like they were like, Hey, cause the concert went way over.
Cathy: Like, yeah, I was a
Todd: little drunk.
Cathy: You think? Oh my gosh.
Cathy: Yes, it was so
Todd: fun.
Cathy: I wasn’t Todd was fine. It wasn’t like a crazy like, you know, it was all fine I was the driver always well, but there was a moment he kept one of his buddies was below us and he kept trying to like hit his buddy on the head and there was another woman next to His buddy and he kept hitting this woman’s head and she would turn around and I’d be like, I am so sorry.
Cathy: And I started holding Todd’s arms down. I’m like, you have to stop reaching over this woman. She was lovely. She wasn’t mad, but it’s also rude. And you had to get your body control. My
Todd: spatial awareness was a little off.
Cathy: Yes. And so I was like, I feel like I’m taking care of a lot of people while I’m watching.
Cathy: So you
Todd: asked me a question. I don’t remember what the
Cathy: question was. Um, what. I said I’m feeling that energy I felt as a kid in this concert. Are you? Oh, yeah. [00:27:00] At Billy Joel? Yes. Um, I
Todd: You drank too much. I No, it’s not that. I was very childlike. I was crazy connected. Um, so yeah, I did feel that, but maybe, you know, maybe it’s because I was hammered, like maybe it’s because I knew all the words to the Billy, Billy Joel songs.
Todd: And I don’t know all the words to Tim McGraw songs. Like, I don’t know how to correlate all these different variables.
Cathy: Let me tell you guys something else that Todd did that I was like, what are you doing? There was, we were, there was a role behind us, obviously, duh. And instead of going down our row to get out and go to the bathroom, he went, he jumped on his chair, went to the back row and went past those people.
Cathy: And they were looking at me again. I’m like, am I with a kid? Do you really not know why I did that? Why?
Todd: Because our role was, I had to interrupt 9 or 10 people to [00:28:00] get out in our row, whereas if I hopped over, I only had to interrupt 3 or
Cathy: 4 but you’re hopping over into their space, that’s not your row. And they were like, you were so, you’re like trying to get your body over and you’re in their way.
Cathy: Here’s the
Todd: deal. Would I rather interrupt 9 people? Or three? The answer is
Cathy: three. Well, was it really three, Todd? Maybe four. Yeah. Okay. So anyway, but I felt like every time he’d leave, I’d be like, I’m sorry. You know, when he comes back, I was just doing a lot of mothering of, of experiences. Okay. So, Anyway, great show, wonderful.
Cathy: And what, what he’s like, what Todd said in the blog was, you know, is this me? Is this them? Is it where I’m sitting? Whatever. Where’s the joy coming from? And then I emailed him after I read his blog because I had just listened to a podcast. I’m sorry. Long weekend. I had just listened to a podcast about the difference between a young brain and an older brain.[00:29:00]
Cathy: And that, and there’s a million things, but one of the most important things is that a younger brain is stimulated by novelty. You may know this from Dan Siegel’s work with the teenage brain and everything, but it’s, it’s beyond that. It’s, it’s a, what makes someone young come alive is I’m seeing something new.
Cathy: I’m seeing something I’ve never seen before. Okay. So, um, Part of that novelty, Todd and I have been to so many concerts, like I, I told him, you know, I remember the first concert I went to, I went to see Adam Ant. And when I saw Adam Ant come out on the stage, I couldn’t believe I was seeing this famous person that I’ve listened to since sixth grade.
Cathy: And now I’m in seventh grade and I’m like, Oh my gosh, it’s Adam Ant right in front of me. I don’t have that with famous people anymore. I’ve seen a lot of famous people. I’ve met a lot of famous people.
Clip: [00:30:00] Um, yeah, I don’t,
Clip: don’t drink,
Cathy: don’t smoke. What, what were you gonna say about Adam, man? Are you gonna rip on him a little bit? What were you gonna say? Uh, you would never go to that show. I’m not a fan. I know I was, and it, it was actually the strip tour. Do you remember? Strip by Adam Amp. Remember that song?
Todd: What do you
Cathy: think?
Cathy: Pull it up. See if you remember it. It’s called Strip. Yeah. All right, let me see. Because Goody two shoes is like the most, well-known song, but it wasn’t my favorite song. Let’s see what this one is, sweetie. Okay,
Clip: I’m so,
Todd: yeah, I’ve never heard this song before.
Cathy: What about ant music?
Todd: Um. One more. Adam Ant has a song called Ant Music. Yes. That’s awesome.
Cathy: Yeah, just like how Big Country has the song Big Country. Remember we talked about this on a [00:31:00] show? I do, I do. Let’s see.
Clip: It’s so sad, when you’re young, to be
Cathy: told. Let’s play this
Clip: for a
Cathy: minute.
Clip: But sadly.
Cathy: Do you remember? No. It was on MTV a lot. Yeah. I
Todd: wasn’t watching
Cathy: it that day. There was a British explosion on MTV. You want to know why? Why? They were the only people who had videos at the time. Oh, there you go. Okay. So going back to that, seeing Ataman, I was like, Oh my gosh, now I see famous people. And don’t get me wrong.
Cathy: It’s not that it’s totally worn off, but you don’t, Have the same like, Oh my gosh. Well, think
Todd: about when we were little kids. The closest we could see to them was a video if you were lucky or like a magazine. Totally. And now you see them on your feed every day.
Cathy: And, but it’s that [00:32:00] real life thing. Like I remember I used to love the Incredible Hulk as a kid and then a guy dressed as the Incredible Hulk came to DeKalb where I lived and my parents took me to see him and I was like, Oh my God, there’s the Incredible Hulk.
Cathy: And of course it’s not. And, um, But I just felt that way. Or like, I think I saw Bozo once. Didn’t you see Bozo the clown? I did see Bozo. And were you like, oh my god, that’s Bozo.
Clip: Dr. David Benner, physician, scientist, searching for a way to tap into the hidden strengths that all humans have. Then an accidental overdose of gamma radiation.
Clip: Oh boy.
Cathy: This is what happened. It does. We all know this story. Um, and then he was so lonely. And so I, I, I would, in therapy, I figured out, cause I used to love The Incredible Hulk and I was so overly attached to this show. And I think we kind of figured out. that I just identified with the loneliness. Isn’t that sad?
Todd: Uh, well, your sadness needed somewhere to go.
Cathy: I know, and I was like, he’s so lonely. Do you remember at the end, they’d [00:33:00] play that sad song and be like, dun, dun, dun, dun. And then the, and then David Banner, what was his name? Bruce or Da I think he was David Banner on TV and Bruce on The Avengers. Anyway, He would leave and have to like walk.
Cathy: He would like, yes.
Cathy: My gosh, he’s ingrained in my brain.
Todd: And he, first of all, it says incredible Hulk ending theme music, Lonely Man. And he’s just like walking down this highway by himself.
Cathy: That’s the vision I have in my head and I’d be like, he would have made friends and he would have like maybe even fallen in love, but then he’d hulk out and then he’d have to leave town.
Todd: His relationship with conflict was not so great, sweetie.
Cathy: Couldn’t keep it together. It’s not his fault. It was the gamma rays.
Todd: Always. I
Cathy: wanted everyone to understand it was the gamma rays.
Todd: Next time we’re in an argument and I say something stupid, I’d be like, it’s not my fault. It’s the [00:34:00] gamma rays.
Cathy: I was so sad.
Cathy: His loneliness bothered me. Okay. So let me get to the point here. So we’re, so now we don’t feel that same level of joy, but you know what, Todd? And I do feel joy doing we, and I don’t even want to be like, we’re old people because it’s not, I don’t want to throw. My age or myself under the bus.
Todd: Can I just throw one more example of youthful joy?
Todd: Sure, go ahead. Sorry, I keep interrupting you, but this is I
Cathy: really want to get to my point. A baby
Todd: girl laughing at a dog eating popcorn.
Cathy: Todd loves
Todd: this
Cathy: video.
Clip: He just loves it.
Cathy: Okay.
Todd: Sorry, I keep interrupting. That
Cathy: baby has never seen a dog eat popcorn. And it’s a novelty of [00:35:00] like, what’s going on.
Todd: Exactly. And there’s a part of me that thinks I need to laugh that hard. No. And I know that I am. not treating myself well by believing that I need to laugh as hard as that baby does.
Cathy: That’s exactly what I wanted this show to be about, and we’re getting to it in our last 15 minutes now, is there’s this, so, so let me, let me finish my point. Novelty when we’re young, when we’re older, it’s what’s ordinary that gives us joy. Okay, so this is, this is brain science, I’m not making this up.
Cathy: When we get older, we start to revel in what’s ordinary. What I do every morning when I get up, actually I went to yoga first this morning, and then I came home and I water our plants outside. Todd and I had some new landscaping done. I love all of it, and I am taking care of it like it’s a child. Like, I water it, we prune it.
Cathy: We’re growing all these vegetables, we eat them, like, it’s this ordinary thing. It’s really extraordinary is what it is because I didn’t pay attention [00:36:00] when I was young to the fact that food came out of the ground. Um, even if I knew it, I didn’t pay attention to it. And now I think it’s the most Amazing thing and watering plants and seeing flowers and being outside.
Cathy: And every night when we are sitting outside, we have this outdoor area. There is a Cardinal that comes and sits on a wire at a specific time and starts Singing. Singing. For us. That’s amazing. Now, a kid may be like, yeah, bird, you know, whatever, because it’s not new. Yeah. They’re like, yeah, I’ve seen a cardinal.
Cathy: Yeah. Um, but to us, this ordinary thing has become extraordinary. And, and so I think that there’s an acceptance of instead of like, Todd just said, I should be like this baby. No, you shouldn’t. You should enjoy your joy. of where your brain is now. Which is being in an ordinary moment and having a deep appreciation of what you’re experiencing.
Cathy: I, you know, all my girls were home this weekend cause we [00:37:00] had a um, a big party for your sister and then we had the Billy Joel tickets and so we just had a great family weekend. And to be at like brunch with my family and we’re all like sitting around talking, I’m so excited And I don’t mean I’m happy like in a all of us should be here all the time way.
Cathy: I just mean I’m so at peace. And
Todd: present.
Cathy: And present. And like, I leave and I’m like, man, that was like the best coffee and the best food I’ve ever had because of these people I’m with, right? And it may seem ordinary, but it’s the, it’s the joy of my life. Yeah. And me being like, you know, someone being like, Yeah, but let’s go do this brand new thing where you parasail and then you go, you know, like, I don’t, that doesn’t feed me anymore.
Cathy: If you like to do that, great. Um, I’m only using parasail because of Duffy’s, you know, substack. We had just talked with John Duffy about this. But that’s fine if you still like that, but this belief that we should be the same. As we were before, I think we should sometimes maybe, you know, [00:38:00] consider new things.
Cathy: Yeah. It’s not that we need to get stuck in patterns.
Todd: Dabble in the novelty. Yeah. We
Cathy: can dabble in novelty. And there’s
Todd: some, like, I think at Thrill Seekers, um, what’s the movie with, uh, Ben Stiller and Philip Seymour Hoffman that you watch all the time
Cathy: along King Poll,
Todd: along Cape Poly. And there’s a, there’s a character in that.
Cathy: Brian Brown. Yeah.
Todd: Yeah. His character. That’s all he does. He like wants to jumps out
Cathy: the window. Right? Yeah. He
Todd: wants to do a bunch of crazy risky stuff. Yeah. Because that’s how he feeds. But he is. Not typical. Right. Most of us, I would say, us human beings, as we age, to your point, the ordinary things do become extraordinary.
Clip: Yeah.
Todd: Whereas when we’re younger, we need newness. Yes. Yeah.
Cathy: Exactly. And newness is what our brain craves because our brain is still growing, you know. It’s like we need all this new input to kind of make everything come together, and I think it, I still have a brain that’s growing. I still, you know, Try and keep it really healthy and, you know, it’s why I started playing drums because I wanted to keep my head going and that’s why I do [00:39:00] connections in the New York Times.
Cathy: It’s why I write because I don’t want to lose that neuroplasticity. I’m totally in. But there’s also a part of me that just appreciates what is, what has been real all along. Well,
Todd: what’s interesting through my brain is, as I get older, I think I’m less, you know, Interested in sports. Yes, you are. It’s so,
Cathy: it’s different.
Todd: Um, you know, there’s certain things that I will stop when I’m doing, like watch the U. S. Open or I’m really, I’m into Welcome to Wrexham, um, documentary. So I’ve been watching a lot of soccer lately. But for the, what’s great about sports is it’s unwritten. We watched the fever play the sky yesterday. Yes. Um, WNBA.
Todd: What’s great about sports is it’s built in novelty because it’s being written as we’re watching it. Right. It’s unfolding in the moment. So I think the novelty that you speak of, when, when we’re I, I think a lot of human beings, adult human beings, do get very [00:40:00] childlike at sporting events because of the novelty of
Cathy: it.
Cathy: It’s new.
Todd: Uh, what I can’t figure out though is as I get older, the, it just doesn’t mean as much to me as it once did.
Cathy: Well, the stories mean a lot to me. Like, it’s funny that you bring up that. The fever in the sky they played yesterday and we watched and I want, and I, and again, I know this is not my business, but I want Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese to get along.
Cathy: I don’t like the controversy. I don’t like, I understand it’s necessary for competition. I think about how after watching the last dance, Michael Jordan is like, I just made everyone my enemy, made up stories about them so I could go up against them. I get it. But when people like revel in that, I like want them to get along like that.
Cathy: I, I want a more ordinary. You know, existence. So I was, the end of the game was hard.
Todd: This may not land, but I’m going to say it anyways. Um, I was listening to a Bob Costas interview. Bob is an announcer for many things. Baseball, Olympics, and he told a story about there was this old timers baseball game [00:41:00] and they were honoring each other and Bob Gibson, who is one of the most fierce competitors of all time, you know, I think they were honoring William Mays or something like that.
Todd: I don’t know. And everybody stood up and Bob Gibson didn’t and they’re like why? He’s like because he’s still not on my team. Or something like that. Yikes. Like, wow, this guy’s really holding on tight to the enemy being not on my team. So anyways, kind of.
Cathy: And, and let me say we, that’s an obvious thing where the guy’s like, this is true.
Cathy: We don’t know these players, if they get along or not, there is a media narrative that is handed to us, but I would like. I like that Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce have a good relationship. I don’t want controversy. I don’t want anything. Like, I like that he got up on stage this weekend and performed with her.
Cathy: I think it’s great. And maybe I think it’s amazing because we’ve watched over the course of time Some other things that have happened to her that it’s just nice. You know, we see ourselves in like, [00:42:00] isn’t it nice to finally be in something that feels healthy? Or at least again, it’s media driven. I don’t really know.
Cathy: Um, but it just feels that way and it’s enjoyable. And I, I just don’t, I don’t know. I, I don’t like, you know, Like, created controversy. Anyway, um, which you would think is surprising considering the things I watch on TV about cults and about documentaries about people and stuff. I just did a
Todd: search, Travis on stage with Taylor, and there’s some thing, and I know it’s a mistake, otherwise you guys would have told me.
Todd: It said, O M F G, Travis Kelsey proposed to Taylor Swift on the Stage of Eras tour. No, he didn’t. So it’s just another example of how Can’t believe everything you see. Yeah,
Cathy: that didn’t happen. So anyway, novelty when you’re young is what really feeds your brain. Ordinary when you’re older. And why I also heard something, um, that I really appreciated on a podcast, um, where I think it was, uh, Saraya Chamali, who we’ve had on the show before she wrote, um, uh, Rage Becomes Her.
Cathy: And then she just wrote another book called The Myth of Resilience. And I think she [00:43:00] was on with and, and she said something that I was like, man, that is so true, which is. I’m just gonna speak as a woman. She’s like, we’re always trying to get back to this certain body. And she’s like, and what I’ve realized is over my lifetime, I have had many different bodies, and they’re never ever supposed to be like each other again.
Cathy: She’s like, I had a child body. You know, you’re a kid, you never want to get back to that, right? I had a young woman body, which maybe we could say from like 16 through like 25 or something where you have a young woman body and it’s like that for a reason. Okay. And then you have, if you, if you so choose to have children.
Cathy: You have a more motherly body, which is a pregnant body, a nursing body, um, maybe even a pre getting pregnant body where you’re kind of, you know, getting more like, I know some women who had to like gain some weight or had to do some things to help with fertility. You know, there’s just a lot of things where your body’s getting [00:44:00] ready to house somebody.
Cathy: And then there’s like a, you know, obviously post partum. You know, children, but then there’s like pre menopausal or perimenopausal, a menopausal body, and then an old, a much older woman body. And your body is not supposed, like, women my age at 52 will look back at pictures of themselves at like 25 and be like, why can’t I look like that again?
Cathy: That’s. Ridiculous. And
Todd: meanwhile, when they were 25, they didn’t like themselves when they were 25.
Cathy: Correct. Not only, and that’s the very surface level of like, Oh, I should have appreciated myself then. You aren’t supposed to have a 25 year old body. If you want to work your butt off and not eat things and, you know, do all these things to try and get back to this hard body of that time, I’m not saying it’s impossible.
Cathy: Anything’s possible. So you do you, but there’s this acceptance of like, I really like myself and I’m not the way I looked when I was 25 or 30, and I definitely still have all the stuff of, you know, this should fit this way and I should look this way. [00:45:00] Like, I have all those issues too, but there is this like deeper acceptance where I’m like, I have had, I’ve had three years.
Cathy: pregnancies that I had three, you know, I have three children, but I had five pregnancies. So my body has been pregnant five times. I have nursed all my children. I have like raised children, you know, they’re almost all of them are adults. I’m like where I am now makes sense. You know what I mean? Like this is, this is it.
Cathy: And, and it’s, and I still do yoga and workout and lift weights. I still take care of myself. But the idea that we’re supposed to be, Our 25 year old self is, there’s, we have to like stop for a minute and go, it’s not supposed to be that way, just like I’m not supposed to be my 12 year old body. Yeah,
Todd: we’re grasping onto something that nature has decided, like our cells regenerate slower as we age.
Todd: Yes, yes. And you know, speaking from, through the male lens, we have a lot of hormonal, uh, issues. Both, uh, fluctuations that happen, a decrease in testosterone. Like, I don’t even know. There’s actually a course that a Jed, uh, guy [00:46:00] named Jed Diamond is going to present to men living on August 10th. And, uh, the, the event isn’t up yet, but, um, sex drive, libidos, like all these different things shift and what we’re trying to do is like, hang on to what used to be, and that doesn’t mean we stopped trying, but there is an acceptance and, uh, and an appreciation and an appreciation.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: Because that’s what I was going to say is like, I feel like I dress more like who I am now. I wear my hair like who I am now. And when I say who I am, I mean, I’m not solely focused on trends. I’m not worried about what my friends are doing. I’m not like, this is what’s right now. I’m just like being me.
Cathy: And that’s part of my body too. Like I’m not like, Ooh, I need to have these kinds of this or these kinds of, you know, like I, I, I want to balance that with the understanding we all have this, my 22 year old self still lives in me, so I still can be very self critical. Um, I’m not like, you know, when women are like, I’m so over that.
Cathy: I don’t believe that. I think we [00:47:00] always have that inner dialogue. But the realization of that I am 52. And that I’ve done all these things and have had kids in my body and, you know, raised these kids and gone through a lot of things and helped my parents move to a next, you know, they both passed and my sister and I helped take care of them.
Cathy: I’ve done a lot of hard work. Yeah. And, um, I, like, I’m a, you know, I’ve gotten softer.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: In all the ways. The way
Todd: it’s
Cathy: supposed to be. I’m a softer person.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: Um, in all the ways. So, I think that goes along with novelty and ordinary as far as, like, accepting where we are instead of striving to be. I write about this a lot in my book.
Cathy: This whole idea that we have to be our optimal selves at all time, oh my god, you guys, relax. Like, and I’m talking to myself too, like, all the self help books, and now I gotta learn something new, and now I have to do all these cleanses, and now I have to do this, and now I have to get this skin thing. Like, relax.
Cathy: Like, where are we going? Like, who, for who? [00:48:00] You know, what are we doing? And so then we can occasionally do those things, but it, we don’t, nothing’s functioning at optimal level all the time. Yeah. Um, yesterday we had so much food yesterday. And I, I like put it this way. I had a really big piece of cake at like four and then was having Lou Malnati’s pizza at six.
Cathy: Like it was, we just ate all day and I was like, this is Fun.
Todd: Yeah. It was gluttonous. It was great. It was fun. And we can, we even have that thing on our fridge. What is normal eating? What is normal eating? Normal eating is sometimes being gluttonous. Right. Exactly. Sometimes normal eating is not eating as much as you need to eat.
Todd: Correct. Um, it’s just a wonderful paragraph. I’m, I’m so glad that thing is still
Cathy: They gave me permission to put it in my book. Oh, good. Ellen Sater did. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. That’s such a good paragraph.
Todd: I know. I’ll, I’ll link to that. So anybody who’s interested to hear what this woman’s interpretation of what normal eating is.
Todd: Thanks. Is, it’s quite incredible.
Cathy: Yeah, um, so anyway, I think [00:49:00] that’s like a good place to kind of bring it full circle. It’s just, there are no final answers here. It’s just questioning of, isn’t it okay to just appreciate ordinary and not be hard on ourselves about needing all the novelty? And isn’t it okay to appreciate where we are now rather than thinking we need to be like we were when we were 30, um, or 25?
Cathy: appreciation. Yeah.
Todd: Um, I’m going to, so yeah, just, uh, so we talked about your sub stack. We talked about Gattis’s, uh, agreements thing. Your, your blog, your MenLivingBlog. Oh yeah, my MenLivingBlog, novelty and ordinary, uh, body awareness. Um, we didn’t talk about Team Zen, but it’s something that you and I do.
Cathy: Oh, that’s me.
Cathy: I’m sorry. See,
Todd: um,
Cathy: my appointment.
Todd: And, uh, so if you’re, when you
Cathy: say it’s something we do, it’s our virtual community, it’s on an app, please join. Um, we love it. And we, we just talked about, we’re going to have a meeting about making sure that Team Zen. Always knows what’s happening and that we’re giving [00:50:00] them all the attention they deserve.
Todd: And the main, uh, programming piece that we do are Zoom meetings where people ask us questions. Like Q& A. Q& A, support, uh, the community supporting one another, and so on. Uh, Jeremy Craft, he’s a bald headed beauty. He does all of, uh, he’s been our partner since the very first episode. That’s 770 weeks in a row, I guess.
Todd: Thank you, Jeremy Craft. Um, Painting and remodeling throughout the Chicagoland area 630956 1800 and, uh, I think that’s about it, right? Yeah, I think so. All right, everybody. So keep trucking. We’ll see you next Tuesday.
[00:51:00]
