Todd and Cathy discuss who’s in the inner circle of the Brat Pack and who is Brat Pack adjacent based on their memories from the 80s and their experience with Andrew McCarthy’s Brat Pack Documentary. They discuss how growth and self-awareness play significant roles in the documentary, and why some individuals evolve faster than others. They also touch on Inside Out 2 and address a listener question about shifting generational cycles.

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Navigating Pop Culture, Parenting, and Emotions: Insights from Zen Parenting Radio


Welcome back to another episode recap of Zen Parenting Radio, where Todd and Cathy shared valuable insights on pop culture, parenting, and emotional intelligence. This podcast, which has reached its remarkable 769th episode, continues to enlighten its listeners with thoughtful discussions and practical advice. In today’s episode, Todd and Cathy cover a range of topics, from the definition of the Brat Pack to handling family dynamics and exploring the latest films. Let’s dive into the key moments and takeaways from this episode.

The Brat Pack: Who’s In and Who’s Out?

Todd and Cathy kicked off the episode by addressing a topic that has fascinated pop culture enthusiasts for decades: the Brat Pack. They explored the origins of the Brat Pack and identified its key members through an engaging discussion.

According to Vulture, the Brat Pack can be divided into three tiers:
1. Inner Circle: This includes Emilio Estevez, Anthony Michael Hall, Rob Lowe, Andrew McCarthy, Demi Moore, Judd Nelson, and Molly Ringwald.
2. Adjacent Members: These are actors who frequently collaborated with the inner circle but are not core members themselves. Examples include Matthew Broderick, Leah Thompson, and Jennifer Grey.
3. Next Generation: Actors who emerged towards the latter half of the 1980s. Noteworthy members are Winona Ryder, Keanu Reeves, and River Phoenix.

Todd and Cathy shared entertaining snippets and personal anecdotes, bringing these historical nuances to life. They even discussed a documentary on the Brat Pack by Andrew McCarthy, exploring its cultural impact and personal reflections from the actors involved.

Handling Family Dynamics: Being the Chain Breaker

A substantial part of the podcast was dedicated to a listener’s question about being a “chain breaker” in a family system. Cathy eloquently explained that a chain breaker is someone who challenges the norms and boundaries established by previous generations. This can be a daunting and emotional process, often met with resistance.

The listener expressed anxiety over her parents’ and in-laws’ capacity to accept her boundaries and values. Cathy and Todd empathetically unpacked this complexity, emphasizing the importance of focusing on personal growth and self-understanding. Cathy mentioned that while it’s natural to want family members to understand and accept new boundaries, the primary goal should be personal peace and integrity.

Takeaways for Parents

To illustrate her point, Cathy shared personal stories from her own parenting journey, highlighting the struggle to balance her evolved parenting philosophy with the expectations of older family members. She stressed the importance of setting boundaries respectfully without necessarily seeking external validation.

Inside Out Part 2: Emotional Intelligence Through Pixar Magic

Pixar’s latest release, Inside Out Part 2, served as another highlight in this episode. Todd and Cathy took their daughters to watch the film, which explores a young girl named Riley navigating her complex world of emotions.

The sequel introduces new emotions like Anxiety, Envy, and Embarrassment, providing a rich narrative on emotional intelligence. Cathy appreciated the film’s multi-layered storytelling, noting how younger children can enjoy the bright visuals, while older kids and adults can engage with its deeper messages.

One standout moment in the film is its portrayal of a panic attack. Cathy praised how the film depicted this intense experience, making it more relatable and understandable, especially for those who have never experienced one.

Todd emphasized that watching Inside Out Part 2 can be a beneficial tool for families. It offers a pathway to discuss and normalize the various emotions children and adults experience.


This episode of Zen Parenting Radio successfully blended pop culture and parenting strategies with thoughtful reflections on emotional wellbeing. Whether you’re a parent seeking advice on boundary-setting or a movie enthusiast interested in 80s nostalgia and Pixar’s latest offering, Todd and Cathy provided a wealth of insights.

If you haven’t yet, consider joining Team Zen, their community platform, to engage in live discussions, ask questions, and become part of an incredible network of like-minded individuals. As Todd always says, keep trucking, and remember, the best predictor of a child’s well-being is a parent’s self-understanding.



Todd: Here. Here we go. My name’s Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 769. Why listen Zen Parenting Radio because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s wellbeing. It’s a parent’s self understanding.

Todd: On today’s show, we’re going to do some pop culture. Yes! We’re going to talk about two things we watched. One over the weekend, which was Inside Out Part 2. The other is, uh, Bratz, the documentary that was on Hulu, uh, from Andrew McCarthy. 

Todd: Hulu? 

Todd: Uh, Hulu! Hulu! Um. Don’t forget, Team Zen. It’s an opportunity for you to ask Cathy and I questions live, be a part of an amazing community.

Todd: We have one tomorrow at noon and if you sign up [00:01:00] now, I’ll send you a free pair of socks or a shirt and you can ask any question or need some support. It’s a wonderful community. Just click on the link below. Cancel at any time. 25 bucks a month. How was that? That was pretty good, right? Um, but first a little bit of parenting content.

Todd: Um, there, we have this thing on our website. I don’t know where it is. I think it’s on the homepage. I should probably figure that out. But we had a woman that had a question. We have an ask me anything section on our webpage and somebody named I don’t know if I’m able to say her name, doesn’t matter what her name is, but it says this.

Todd: Hi, awesome people. First of all, thank you. We’re awesome. Sweet. Thank you. Can you talk about the process of being the chain breaker in a family system? I have a hard time since I’ve been speaking to my family system and she puts in parentheses, my parents and my in laws about my desires, wishes, and boundaries and generally creating a feedback loop with them.

Todd: I find [00:02:00] myself feeling anxious over their capacity to receive and want them not to be not, to not be hurt. I also more clearly, I also see more clearly our values are not the same, which brings up pain in myself. And I’m going through an acceptance process about this. Um, let me see if I can summarize it.

Todd: Yeah, 

Cathy: you, that, that reading was, I’d give you a B minus C plus. 

Todd: Basically, she has always, I’m just making some of it, it seems like she’s starting to speak up a little bit more and her parents and her in laws are not used to this. Mm hmm. Am I making this up or is that kind of what you got out of it? Uh, 

Cathy: yeah, I think she’s just saying that her, her beliefs and boundaries are different than her parents and in laws.

Cathy: And that, I don’t understand the feedback loop 

Todd: part. I, I don’t either. And she says, I find myself feeling anxious over their capacity to receive. Now she didn’t say what receive what. Yeah, I mean. And she wants them not to be [00:03:00] hurt. 

Cathy: Right. So there’s a lot of like desires in that and I don’t think she’s alone.

Cathy: I think the, because your, your initial question is, I want to be Chain breaker chain. Um, the smoothie, remember the throat thing? Sorry, babe. Todd drinks smoothies and then it gets caught in his throat. Sorry. Um, the chain breaker in the family or the person who’s going to create like a, the disruptor different.

Cathy: Yeah. It’s like a disruption to the system. I don’t, I don’t mind. Saying, oh, the disruptor, but sometimes a disruption, depending on who you are, it sounds negative. Right. And really all it is, is redefining and evolving a system, right? And I think that there are a lot of needs in what she’s asking, which is she wants to, she’s already doing this hard work to build a different bridge for the next generation to drop some of the things that didn’t work and to try new things.

Cathy: And she is reaching an arm out to her in laws and to her parents and saying, Hey, come [00:04:00] with me. And I think there are aspects that they may join her, hopefully respecting her boundaries. That’s very important. But we also don’t make the change to then change everybody else, especially the people who were a generation before us.

Cathy: The changes for the future. And so the, the, the ideal is that we are able to express ourselves and that the people who we love may not understand, but are able to at least somewhat adapt to this system. The goal of, I don’t want to hurt them. I don’t want them to be offended. I want them to be like on board with everything.

Cathy: And she didn’t say it like that, but. I think that’s what we want is we want to be like, I have this new plan and we want everyone to be like, yay. And that doesn’t happen very often. Um, because you’re telling someone their way of doing things didn’t, doesn’t work for you anymore. 

Todd: Yeah. Um, and I guess what I would say [00:05:00] to compress what you said, You said.

Todd: Okay. Is that she could change herself, but if she’s trying to change other people, maybe she’s not. 

Cathy: Yeah. 

Todd: Maybe I miss Interpreting her question, but just focus on yourself now. It’s also tough because you love these people and if you are Disrupting what you used to not disrupt. It’s going to create a little bit of Tension.

Cathy: Right. So I want, you know, something that’s very important to me when we’re answering questions like this is like, Todd, get in your bones of what that was like for you, because that’s still very hard for you. So sometimes we’re really quick at giving advice about do this of like, you can’t, other people won’t be on board and that’s okay.

Cathy: But the realization is that that was really hard for me. My parents are no longer here. But while they were, and there were things that. I wanted or, or new ways of doing things that I would share. They, they would respect it. My parents were never ones to really push back, but I don’t [00:06:00] think they got everything.

Cathy: I don’t think they were like, yay. I think they were like, okay, you know that we’ll do this. But I know, you know, like I remember with your mom, you know, initially when we’d have a napping schedule for the girls and we thought that was important. And she would say, Just bring them to the party, throw them on a couch, they’ll be fine.

Cathy: You know what I mean? And that’s for you to then say to your mom, no, that’s not what I’m going to do. Not easy. That’s not easy. No. Um, with, you know, so there’s these things that we, the, what I will agree with, uh, with what Todd said. is your discomfort with their discomfort is where you need to focus your energy.

Cathy: Less on how do I convince them so I don’t feel uncomfortable anymore. It’s more about coming to peace with your own discomfort. And I believe That there are ways we can do this without being super conflictual, unless we came from parents who are already kind of, um, challenging for whatever [00:07:00] reasons. I think there’s a way of setting boundaries without getting too threatening about it.

Cathy: You know, well then you can’t see the kids, you know, that kind of stuff. Um, and you 

Todd: gotta stay conscious and curious, which is really hard to do, and to Cathy’s point. Easier said than done. Yeah. The minute you put yourself, I still say like, as a 52 year old man, there’s sometimes when I feel like I’m seven years old when I’m around my dad.

Todd: Sure. And I say that a lot to my clients. I’d say it a lot to the guys in the men’s group. Like, it’s hard to break a pattern because there’s still this little boy in me that still feels like I’m seven years old. 

Cathy: We want to please our parents. And we want to please our in laws, like, we want everybody to get along, like, I never wanted disharmony.

Cathy: I wanted harmony, but then what I also realized is if we’re putting all of our loves in order, which we have to do, the most important thing to me was going with my intuitive beliefs and my newly researched beliefs about what I thought was best for my kids. And if I put, well, but I still want my parents to think of me as a good girl, above [00:08:00] that, Then I would be resentful of them, of my parents.

Cathy: I needed to put me as a mom and what I think was necessary for my girls above all of those things. But it didn’t mean that all the things below that didn’t matter to me. 

Todd: Well, and you know, she. She wrote this question in three or four sentences. I’m sure it’s much more layered. Oh, sure. Much more complicated.

Todd: We’re probably missing some things. Um, yet another reason why to get on Team Zen. That way we can kind of have a back and forth. So anyways. 

Cathy: Yeah, yeah. I would say that to who wrote this. Like if you really want to talk about this more in depth with us, Um, or with, you know, other people who are experiencing this, because we talk about these generational things all the time.

Cathy: Please join Team 

Todd: Zen. Well, and I want to just close, and I think I may have said this in the podcast a few weeks ago. Um, it’s about boundaries. Uh huh. You and I have done multiple podcasts about boundaries and you can very easily do a search and find them, but this quote says, boundaries are the distance at which I can love you and me simultaneously.

Clip: Mm hmm. 

Todd: And I just, it’s such a concise way of. [00:09:00] illustrating what boundaries are. It doesn’t mean love me at the expense of you, it’s the distance at which I can love you and me at the same time. 

Cathy: Yeah, and even, even more concise in everyday language is boundaries are what’s okay and what’s not okay. You know, it’s sometimes we’re, and even that we’re boundaries, um, It’s, people sometimes take it to mean, um, you know, my boundary is you’re gonna do exactly what I say.

Cathy: That’s not a boundary. That’s a demand of someone. A boundary is here’s what’s okay with me, and here’s what’s not okay with me. It’s your boundary. It’s not imposing. So with your boundary. children or with their in laws, with your in laws, it’s not about, it’s not being demanding and overriding and it’s just about saying, this is what we do.

Cathy: Yeah. And when they question it, you say, this is what we do. Yeah. 

Todd: That’s when you got to try to stay conscious and curious and honest and. Yeah. Loving all at the same time. And 

Cathy: get creative. If there’s [00:10:00] things that they’re like, well, that’s not how we do things at our house, then you say, okay, let’s figure out other ways we can all get together.

Cathy: Like the one thing that was, I think really important to both Todd and I, if we had issues with, you know, either of our family, meaning times, uh, like times we were supposed to get together or holidays or things that people were doing that didn’t fit with what we were doing is our goal was never to be like, well, then we’re out of here.

Todd: The goal was let’s be creative. What is a win for all? Yes. What 

Cathy: is a win for all? Yeah. 

Todd: Um, okay. Do we want to start with Bratz? Yeah, we want to start with Bratz. Okay. Should I play a little bit of the trailer? Yeah. 

Cathy: So what Todd’s going to play is there’s a documentary that came out last week, I think on June 13th, actually, and on Thursday.

Cathy: Um, and it is a, uh, well, how would, how would we say this? It’s like a It’s a search, like a opportunity to reflect back and get perspective on how people felt about something that significantly affected their lives. And for us who [00:11:00] are Gen Xers, we watched it with, you know, front row seats. 

Todd: So here’s the trailer.

Todd: So it’s two and a half minutes. So tell me when you want me to cut it off. 

Clip: If you were coming of age in the 1980s, the Brat Pack was near the center of your cultural awareness. But for those of us experiencing it from the inside, the Brat Pack was something very different. On June 10th, 1985, New York Magazine published Hollywood’s Brat Pack.

Clip: I just remember seeing that cover and thinking Oh,

Clip: from then on, my career and the career of everyone who was involved was branded the Brat Pack. 

Todd: I’m really sorry that article had to come out. 

Clip: I’ve never talked to anybody about what that was like, so I thought it might be interesting to try and contact everyone who was in the Brat Pack. Hey, Emilio Estevez.

Clip: This is Andrew McCarthy calling you. Hey, Ali. Hey, Demi. Hey, Molly. Let’s call Raul. Hello? Judd? [00:12:00] Me? You around? You do not interested in talking about the Brat Pack for years. It’s doing everything now. How come you’re talking to me? Because you called me. It was time that we clear the air on a couple things. I love your stuff, Bob.

Clip: Hey, thank you. I hated the Brat Pack for decades. 

Todd: Disaster. I think that’s a good place. Alright, we can watch the rest of it by going on YouTube and looking at the trailer or watching it on Hulu. So, 

Cathy: yeah. So, I wanted to talk about this because Todd and I were excited to watch it and there’s many reasons.

Cathy: Number one, because we love pop culture and so this whole Gen X, uh, this whole Brat Pack thing was like I said, we were right there in it with them. I also think it has a lot to do with self awareness and about personal responsibility and also about our own belief systems about ourself. So while this is, yes, fun to talk about because all these movies kind of defined our, our youth, um, it’s also really interesting to watch how [00:13:00] people have integrated this into their lives as they’ve gotten older.

Cathy: And when I say this, I mean, having an article come out that is. Pretty unkind, um, you know, taking some swipes at people in an effort, I think, after the guy who wrote the article is actually in David, um, is it Bloom? Yeah, David Bloom. The guy who wrote it is actually in the documentary and he’s still pretty, um, how would you describe it?

Cathy: He’s pretty Pretty certain he’s right. Yeah, not a lot of curiosity. Curiosity. And he also, to me, comes off as, because he was hanging out with these guys. The story is actually that one night he went out with Judd Nelson, um, Emilio Estevez. And, um, Rob Lowe. And he was like a journalist who was like following them around.

Cathy: Kind of like Almost Famous, right? You know, following them around and they were assuming, Hey, this guy’s like 29 years old. He’s just like five or six [00:14:00] years older than us. So he’s kind of with us. And he was far from with them. He was judging them. He was believing that they were getting too much too soon.

Cathy: I think he kind of sounded like he was a little jealous of the amount of female attention that they received. And he wrote a pretty scathing article. Now here’s something interesting, Todd. These are, um, I have a bunch of things that I took out. So we kind of were on the same page because Todd and I got into a little bit of a discussion after the documentary.

Cathy: I want to go into the documentary, but when it was over about who was in. The Brat Pack, okay, which we’re going to go through, but just so you guys know, the, in the, the article that came out in 1985, the headline says, Hollywood’s Brat Pack. They’re Rob, Emilio, Sean, Tom, Judd, and the rest. The young movie stars you can’t quite keep straight.

Cathy: So a lot of people are like, no, it’s not Tom Cruise. It’s not Sean Penn. It was. The Brad Pack [00:15:00] was meant to be a reflection on all of these young stars. Now, this is what we’re going to talk about. Some of them were able to make their way out where it doesn’t, it’s not attached to them. You know, they were able to kind of find their way through that.

Cathy: And part of that was because I think the movies that tended to really define the Brat Pack because when this article came out was right before St. Elmo’s Fire came out. So you’re kind of in between Breakfast Club and St. Elmo’s Fire. So those people tended to get the, especially if they were in both.

Clip: Yeah. 

Cathy: You know, like Emilio and Judd and, um, Ali, Sheedy. So anyway, but that’s kind of, that’s where I want to start is a lot of people argue about who’s in it and we’re going to go through this, but it’s evolved. 

Todd: Yeah. And I think it depends on who you ask. And I think a lot of people be like, I’m not sure, but I think it’s blah, blah, and blah.

Todd: Yeah. What I said to you towards the beginning of the documentary is I think it’s everybody in St. Elmo’s plus Molly Ringwald. Now is that [00:16:00] there’s no like official list of who’s in the I actually 

Cathy: have it. 

Todd: I do have an official list. By whom? Who does that? 

Cathy: Well, this is, it’s, it’s was an article that was written in Vulture where there was like a lot of people who gave their input about it, so I’m not saying it’s absolute.

Todd: So somebody took a survey of whatever, smart people or connected people that would know. 

Cathy: So my question to you is, You get to decide which way we go here first. Do you, do you want to do that, that part first of who’s in it? Or would you rather discuss the documentary? 

Todd: Uh, I don’t think it’ll take long to decide who’s in it.

Todd: Will it? Okay. Well, start there. Okay. So we will, we will start there. Um, and, and, uh, you know, just to probably in the terms of wanting to be right, it was written about three people. 

Cathy: But the headline that I just read you 

Todd: said 

Cathy: It’s Tom. It’s Sean. The headline 

Todd: from that Rolling Stones 

Cathy: article? Yeah. [00:17:00] That was on the top of that Hollywood Brat Pack.

Cathy: Those were the three guys he was seeing that night that he was following. Okay. But he was putting that title 

Todd: on all of them. Well, and, and, you know, here we go. And I don’t think we’ll disagree with this, but he followed three people around and made an opinion about how they navigated their lives for a few days.

Todd: Yes. And he also lumped these other people that he had never met or never done any type of journalism and decided that they’re also in it. 

Cathy: Well, and I think there was less, okay, so part of it was what they did that night and his take on their maybe grandiosity or on their, um, entitlement. Okay. So that was part of it.

Cathy: Another part of it was he was standing back and saying. These guys haven’t really gone through the training that most actors have gone to. He actually, in the article, talks about Tom Cruise specifically, and says the kid never went to school, he [00:18:00] never studied, you know, acting, and all of a sudden he’s in all these movies.

Cathy: I think Risky Business had just hit and was a success. And he refers to a lot of them that way. Now, the thing you have to remember is a lot of these guys were friends, Todd. Sean Penn went to high school with Emilio Estevez, and Charlie Sheen was his brother, and you know what I mean? Like, there was a lot of overlap.

Cathy: I’m not saying it’s okay that he did what he did, but these guys knew each other. Emilio Estevez and Tom Cruise were best friends. Like, they went to the Outsiders, um, Tryout, or whatever it’s called. What’s it called? Audition. Together. Like, they were best friends. And so, all these guys had these, like, interconnections.

Cathy: Not to mention, now we have this language about, um, nepo babies. You know, nepotism. Yeah. Like, now we talk about that. But there are a lot of them, you know, came from, like, Sean Penn’s dad was like a screenwriter or something like that. Nicolas [00:19:00] Cage, who’s very peripheral, but his uncle was, you know, Francis Ford Coppola, you know, Emilio Estevez and Charlie Sheen.

Cathy: Their dad was Martin Sheen. There was a lot of nepo stuff going on. And we didn’t have that language then, but that’s another thing that David Bloom was talking about. Um, so I, and, you know, it’s interesting in the article, he doesn’t refer to the women, which is very 1985. You know, everything’s about the guys.

Cathy: It’s not about the women, but there are women who are, you know, wrapped up in this as well. He just doesn’t talk to them. So 

Todd: fluff and fold, buddy. Fluff and fold. I’m going to just intermingle some soundbites into this conversation. I’m 

Cathy: down. I’m totally into it. All your love. What’s fun about the documentary is that, um, there’s so many good clips from the movie.

Cathy: So even if you’re not interested about the deep aspects of the documentary Oh yeah. It’s fun to see. And every time, like Andrew McCarthy, ’cause it’s his movie, he did the documentary, it was his idea. [00:20:00] He’s the one doing all the interviewing. Every time he goes to see somebody, they’ll play clips of him with that person in a movie.

Cathy: Mm-Hmm. . If, if they, so if they had a movie together, which he did with most of ’em. So,

Todd: What’s that? Hey Jules, how about a lift? Yeah, but what’s the beep? Uh, they’re in a car. I haven’t vetted these sound clips if you haven’t figured out. Good deal. 

Cathy: I told Todd that because I always, like a few years ago, I got a Jeep when I turned 50. That was like my big thing. And I said, is there a possibility I’ve always wanted a Jeep because of Jules and St.

Cathy: Elmo’s Fire? You know how things get lodged into your brain? 

Todd: It’s just that one scene where they’re going to St. Elmo’s to drink beer on a Sunday after Alec gets Billy a job and it’s like a nice fall day in the northeast and it’s just beautiful He’s just one and I feel like 

Cathy: Billy stands up and says something like let’s get wasted.

Cathy: Anyway, that’s right. And They’ll be okay [00:21:00] we talked about st. Elmo’s fire already on pop culturing by the way head over there will you Uh, put that link below. Yes, I will link that. So, if you’re, we have another podcast called Pop Culturing where we discuss movies, usually Gen X movies, and we really went through St.

Cathy: Elmo’s Fire, but my hot take in that episode was the fact that the whole Dale Beaverman thing was so 

Todd: Your least favorite story. 

Cathy: As the kids would say these days, out of pocket. Yeah. Um, inappropriate, stalking, um, no, uh, you know, uh, you know, uh, you know, uh, consent, um, creepy, and it just didn’t do Kirby Kager any favors.

Cathy: Like, he could have had such a different story. I don’t know why he wanted that role. Um, but anyway, you know, sometimes we’re stuck with the role we’re stuck with. And I like Andy McDowell pretty well, but I just didn’t think she had a great role either. It was so, like, bland.

Cathy: Okay, so a few things that I wanted to read from the [00:22:00] article and then we’ll keep diving into the movie. But again, just to kind of keep everybody on the same board. So in the article itself, the one by David Bloom, he says the Brat Packers act together whenever possible. Um, and the first Brat Pack movie was Taps.

Cathy: Okay. So the story of kids taking over a military school, it took in 20. 5 million, which at that time was a lot. Then came The Outsiders. 

Todd: Great movie. 

Cathy: Great movie. And that had all the guys in it. Like most of my bedroom wall was filled with pictures of guys from The Outsiders. 

Todd: Stay Gold, Ponyboy. 

Cathy: That’s right.

Cathy: So all those guys were like our guys, right? Even though your girl was in there, Diane Lane was in that movie. Love Diane Lane. She just did not. Get as much credit, you know, cause it was She was a side, she was a side 

Todd: character 

Cathy: too. Um, yes. But Leif Garrett didn’t really get a lot of credit too, being a Soch and all.

Todd: He was a Soch. 

Cathy: Um, anyway, then came Rumblefish, which was another, um, Matt Dillon, I think, or Matt Dillon. [00:23:00] And S. E. Hinton wrote that one too. She wrote, did you know that S. E. Hinton was a woman? Sure. He wrote The Outsiders. She’s in The Outsiders. 

Todd: She’s a nurse. 

Cathy: Is she really? Yeah, she is. Oh, cool. And she, it’s perfect that she had to say S.

Cathy: E. So people didn’t know that she was a woman. 

Todd: God forbid she ever said that. Female first name is a female 

Cathy: and nobody will read her book. People didn’t believe that she would understand what was really going on with teenagers, like as a woman journalist. Read more about that. Um, and then the breakfast club and then St.

Cathy: Elmo’s fire. So I’m not saying those were the only ones. We obviously had 16 candles in there, um, because that became, that came before, um, breakfast club, but then a lot of them came after that, like weird science and, um, um, Pretty in pink. Where was pretty in pink in that? I don’t remember. But anyway, so, um, let’s talk about Emilio Estevez because that’s the first person that Andrew McCarthy goes to see.

Cathy: In this article, he says that he’s the unofficial president of the Brat Pack, um, because everybody seems to think he’s their best friend. He’s kind of the center of it. 

Todd: And also [00:24:00] he, I think, um, he interviewed Emilio Estevez. It’s 

Cathy: actually Estevez. Oh, it is? I was saying Estevez for a long time too, and maybe it’s just pronunciation if you actually speak Spanish.

Cathy: You know what I mean? 

Todd: Estevez. Um, uh, Ali Shidi, Rob Lowe, Demi Moore. I’m sure I’m missing a few, but, uh, Emilio was, I think, the most guarded, as I shared with you, and probably because he probably dealt with the impact. As much as anybody, if not more. 

Cathy: Because of this article? Well, and it was about him. Like the first thing that Andrew McCarthy says to him is Dude, what happened?

Cathy: Because I kind of think about not that I blame Emilio Estevez because he again thought the same thing that they all did. This journalist is doing, you know, an article on me and I’m just kind of letting him know who I am. By the way, who’s not 

Todd: a journalist? Drunken idiot when they’re 24 years old. Okay, 

Cathy: that’s another thing is everybody, like if you read the article, there’s this part of [00:25:00] it where Judd Nelson is like gets on the dance floor and is trying to get people’s attention and he’s like standing in front of a speaker and nobody like knows it’s him, meaning they’re not noticing him and he goes and sits down and is really grumpy and is like, let’s go to a new bar.

Cathy: And it’s like, okay, yeah, we can like be like, what a baby or he wants attention, but who didn’t stand in front of a speaker? And like try and dance and get attention. I did that 

Todd: and I wasn’t a famous movie star. Right. So I can only imagine how much more inflated, uh, from an egoic standpoint, these guys and girls were because they were on a completely different stratosphere as I was.

Cathy: And they probably just really wanted that. That’s why they went out. You know what I mean? I mean, part of it was to be together, but it was fun, you know, girls coming up to your table and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And again, I’m not saying it’s okay. It is as far as like that that should continue, but when you’re 22, that’s so common to be expected.

Cathy: Yeah, that’s so to be expected. And so he kind of, so, but you know, a few things that came up in the [00:26:00] documentary, I don’t want to like give away the whole thing because I feel like people will want to see it. But one thing they, that Andrew McCarthy and Emilio talk about. is that they were supposed to do a movie together right after this article.

Cathy: Like, they had both kind of signed on for this movie and that Emilio is like, Nope, Andrew McCarthy can’t be in it anymore because he’s like, I wanted to distance myself from all of you. We were like becoming toxic to each other because we were all trying. It fits the narrative that people 

Todd: wanted to write them in.

Cathy: And that’s, that’s the interesting thing. Like, let’s just dive right into the middle of it. For, I think, Emilio and for Andrew McCarthy, and obviously maybe some of the people who were not in the doc, it became a huge deal where it’s almost like they felt they were being called out for not being serious people.

Clip: And 

Cathy: again, when you’re young, it can feel like that. I bet when you’re 22, I read Andrew McCarthy’s biography, And he was very insecure, like everybody. But he was very chromogeny and insecure, and he felt like people were telling him he didn’t fit in, and he was [00:27:00] trying to be a real cool New York guy. And it’s that thing, Todd, it’s like in parenting, if somebody tells you you’re a bad parent, and it just knocks you to your knees, because there’s part of you that believes that.

Cathy: Of course. 

Todd: You know? There’s this cynic inside of each one of us, or the inner critic, and the one that doesn’t think that he or she deserves to Get, or receive, or be wherever they happen to be. 

Cathy: And so the person who says that, who may say something flippantly, like, you didn’t do that right, or you’re not a good parent, or you’re not a good friend.

Cathy: If we already have those beliefs about ourselves, not only does it knock us to our knees, but it villainizes that person in a big time way. Whoever said it, we’re so overwhelmed by the way they made us feel. And again, it doesn’t mean that David Bloom was right. It just means, wow, did this hit people differently?

Cathy: There was something that Especially I’ll just speak about Andrew McCarthy. It, it like stopped him dead in his tracks for a little bit. Now he did do Weekend at Bernie’s and a few other movies after that. Maybe Mannequin? No, is that him and Mannequin? Yeah, yeah. 

Todd: And Kim Cattrall. 

Cathy: [00:28:00] So it didn’t, I’m not saying he never acted again, but there was something deep in him that got shook.

Cathy: You know, and maybe it was everyone else’s reaction where they were really thriving as a unit. Yeah. You know, kind of, it was a mix and match of all these young people. And it really shook things up where everybody started to kind of distance themselves from each other. Sure. Because they wanted to be taken seriously.

Cathy: Well, they, 

Todd: you know, they got a bazillion interviews. As a result of that article, asking them about it and they don’t want to deal with it anymore. They don’t want to talk about it. So they got to separate from it. It makes sense. 

Cathy: And then someone like, you know, Tom Cruise and Sean Penn, I’ll use those two guys.

Cathy: They were already, I think even before this article came out, so on the fast track to being taken seriously. Like they’re, you know, there’s all these stories, I don’t know if you know, you guys read Rob Lowe’s biography, but any of their biographies, they talk about how serious these two were. Right. About being thought of as really serious, you know, um, respected actors.

Cathy: And so they were kind of already going in that direction. [00:29:00] And by then, you know, Tom Cruise, except for the Outsiders and obviously Taps early on, once he did Risky Business, he was in a whole nother trajectory. Yeah. Sean Penn, Fast Times Ridgemont High, not necessarily a different trajectory yet, but I wonder what came after that.

Cathy: I wonder what his next movie was. Which actor? For Sean Penn after Fast Times. 

Todd: I can look it up. That’ll take me a minute. 

Cathy: No, that’s fine. Um, I’ll see, I’ll kind of go through if there’s anything else, but what I will say is there’s also like, let’s bring in the women, like Demi Moore in the documentary, I think has, she’s the most, you can tell she’s had the most therapy or she has the most spiritual take or, more universal approach to the whole thing where she saw it as something that, yeah, it was sidetracking.

Cathy: It wasn’t necessarily meant to be a kind thing. But she, her, her basic quote is, do things happen to you or for you? And she was able also to kind of, you know, push past it. And she would, ended up being the highest paid [00:30:00] actress ever when she did striptease. And she had a whole different kind of, You know, I don’t think by the time she was in Indecent Proposal that anyone was thinking about the brown 

Todd: pack.

Todd: She grew out of it or she escaped from it. Sean Penn went from Fast Times to Bad Boys. Oh, Bad Boys. Says he had a cameo in Risky Business. That’s not true, is it? I don’t know. Uh, Falcon in the Snow. Yeah, that was super. And that was with 

Cathy: Timothy Hutton. And 

Todd: then Colors. 

Cathy: That was with Uh, what’s his name? Uh Robert Not De Niro, but the other one.

Cathy: Duvall. Duvall. Thank you. 

Todd: Casualties of war. Carlitos away. Dead man walking. 

Cathy: Yeah. I mean, there’s nothing funny in there. No. You know? What about at close range? 

Todd: Well, I didn’t go all the way up, but yeah. 

Cathy: All right. So, you know, uh, Very different. And they were kind of more on the Academy Award track. So again, these guys who maybe, or these guys and women who maybe they didn’t feel like they had that skill set, or maybe that wasn’t their [00:31:00] goal.

Cathy: I don’t think every person who who is an actor. I mean, of course they want notoriety, but I don’t think they necessarily, they want to do comedies or they want to do, uh, you know, a rom com. Not everything needs to be Falcon and the Snowman. Right. You know what I mean? Um, so anybody else in the movie Todd, like any thoughts that you had about Andrew McCarthy overall, as far as his experience?

Cathy: I 

Todd: think he’s still trying. There’s the cynic in me like, Oh, he’s Board and he’s unimportant. So this is a way to elevate himself into importance. He’s on good morning America and today’s show and getting interviewed left and right. 

Cathy: Okay. 

Todd: Um, so there is that part in me that’s like, okay, he’s just. bored, but he could have done this 10 years ago or 10 years from now.

Todd: Instead he’s decided to do it now. 

Clip: Yeah. 

Todd: But I think his intention was not just selfish. I think he really wanted to explore it. I don’t think he’s necessarily the best interviewer of these. Like I wanted him to do better asking questions to fellow actors. Me too. Me 

Cathy: too. I wanted, I, I wanted the conversations to be a [00:32:00] little deeper.

Cathy: Yeah. I mean, I think he tried with some of them. He hasn’t seen these people in like 30 years. 

Todd: You think they’re like their buddies. They’re not. They barely know each other. And I’m sure that they begrudgingly said yes because, okay, let’s just see what can come from this. But, uh, at the end of the day, you know, and a pretty sensitive topic, you know, these people all got their butts handed to them by the press or whatever.

Todd: Um, But yeah, so anyways, so, yeah, and I think he was the least evolved out of almost everybody. 

Cathy: And, you know, I think people are kind of trashing him for that, but I think his whole intention, his whole point is I would like to evolve this. I would like to figure this out and work this through my system.

Cathy: And a lot of times we’re like, well, Demi Moore did it 10 or 20 years ago, you should have too. And everybody evolves at different times. Well, and 

Todd: they do it in different ways. Yeah. He decided to do it in public. He could have. Talked to each one of them individually. He could have gone to his own therapist to evolve it.

Todd: He decided to do it and bring us along for the ride. And I’m grateful for that, but I don’t know if it [00:33:00] was the most effective way of kind of getting through it. 

Cathy: Well, and I just think that we, you know, sometimes we come up with a really sharp narrative like, Oh, Andrew McCarthy’s not evolved. And I’m watching a documentary where he’s doing his best to, um, was he where Rob Lowe and Demi Moore were with this?

Cathy: No, not at all. But guess what? He’s starting the process a little later. One of the things he talks about, and it’s also discussed in his book, is his relationship with his dad and the death of his dad really woke him up. And it’s fairly recent. Yeah. He was still really struggling with that. And sometimes we have these things that happen.

Cathy: I think what I’m saying to everybody is there’s no wrong time to evolve. And I think for us to criticize Andrew McCarthy and say, well, he seems much more behind than they are. Okay. But he’s still doing it. He’s still doing the work and he’s trying to figure it out. And I think he was very receptive. You know, I watched his face during certain scenes, especially with Demi Moore.

Cathy: And he had a good talk with Leah Thompson. And I [00:34:00] think he was like, that’s interesting. And he went to see Timothy Hutton, who was one of his idols. Like he really followed him. He You know, was really respected him because Timothy Hutton was kind of a bit of a peripheral, um, uh, Brat Packer. You know, he was older than them, but he was the only one to win an Academy Award.

Cathy: And so they were like, Oh my gosh, he’s, you know, amazing. And so I just kind of saw somebody blooming and maybe not have information. I happen to be in love with someone only they don’t know it. Okay. Yeah. He’s very, very, um, that character in St. Elmo’s Fire. He’s very Kevin. 

Clip: Yeah, he is. 

Cathy: You know? It’s funny even to see what he was wearing.

Cathy: I’m like, Kevin would wear that. One more quote. You’re 

Todd: not angry. I’m 

Cathy: not angry. 

Clip: Never trust a woman who says she isn’t angry. 

Cathy: All right. Sweetie, they like to drink straight vodka in St. Elmo’s Fire. 

Todd: Well, yeah, uh, just straight up vodka with no ice. 

Cathy: You know, I, I, the first time I saw that movie, I was confused by that.

Cathy: I’m like, do people drink that? Cause I think at the time we were still doing [00:35:00] Peggy. 

Todd: Maybe it was an eight, late eighties thing. 

Cathy: I don’t know. It just seemed very like these guys had just gotten out of college the fall before, the spring before, and all of a sudden they’re so, I mean the whole movie is about how they haven’t grown up, but at the same time, what college student is drinking straight vodka?

Cathy: Or maybe some of you are. I don’t know. Here’s a quote from Billy. Okay. 

Todd: It’s cool. It ain’t a party till something gets broken. That’s right. It’s cool. It ain’t a party till something gets broken, sweetie. 

Cathy: So two things that I want to say that were in the article that I thought were really interesting and then we’ll go into who’s in the Brat Pack.

Cathy: Okay, Don? 

Clip: Yep. 

Cathy: One of them is there’s a story that David, um, Bloom tells about how there’s this movie called Clear Intent, the story of two LA garbage men who witness a murder and get involved. And then he starts talking to Emilio Estevez about it. And he said, yeah, I think I want to play one of them. Do you think Matthew Broderick would be available to play the other one?

Cathy: Or maybe Sean Penn? What about Nicolas Cage? Yeah, I’ve been thinking about him. He’s [00:36:00] like, but what I know is clear intent will, will, will, um, reunite two of us on screen. Okay. So that’s part of the article. Is that movie the garbage man movie that he did with his brother? Possibly. What was that movie called?

Todd: Uh. I don’t remember. Because it wasn’t clear intent. Sounds like dirty laundry or something. It’s Garbage men. Like It wasn’t garbage men. It wasn’t garbage men. Um And I heard the movie might be funny. I’ve 

Cathy: never 

Todd: seen it. 

Cathy: And that’s what they say is that it’s a really good script. And John Hughes actually says that he read it and thought, Oh my gosh, that’s so good.

Cathy: But I just don’t remember that movie that it ended up being Emilio Estevez and Charlie Sheen. And I don’t, I just was wondering if it was the same movie. I thought you would know. 

Todd: Uh, I should know, but I don’t know. You know 

Cathy: what it’s called? It’s Garbage Men. Right? I don’t know. I’m about to find out. Okay.

Todd: Uh, here’s some of the things that he’s done. He’s got quite an IMDb. I know. Uh, the Outsiders, right? The Breakfast Club. St. [00:37:00] Elmo’s. That was then. This is now. Mm 

Clip: hmm. 

Todd: John Parr St. Elmo’s fireman in motion video. Yes, that was ridiculous. Maximum Overdrive. Wisdom, which I thought was a bit staked out with Richard Dreyfuss.

Todd: Young Guns. Young Guns 2. Men at Work. 

Cathy: Men 

Todd: at Work. 

Cathy: Okay, so I think that’s that movie. So it’s just funny to think about that. And then another thing it says in there, um, It’s Judd Nelson talking about how he loves being in ensembles, and he’s, and then it says his name, Judd Nelson’s name, is being tossed around for the lead of Bright Lights Big City.

Cathy: Um, the other role has been cast. Tom Cruise is in it. Aside from Judd Nelson, other actors under consideration for the role of Tad in, uh, Bright Lights Big City are Emilio Estevez and Rob Lowe. So what’s interesting. is we know that Michael J. Fox ended up doing that movie. 

Todd: Assuming that was because there’s the Kiefer Sutherland role and the Michael J.

Todd: Fox role. 

Cathy: And I think Tom Cruise was supposed to be in the Kiefer Sutherland. Got it. But it’s interesting because maybe this tells you [00:38:00] about a little bit of the, um, the fallout. Yeah. Is that there is a possibility that after this article, Tom Cruise is like, I’m unattaching from this and we’re not considering Brat Packers anymore.

Cathy: Even though Michael J. Fox was a bit. Of a periphery, you know, Brat Packer, but not full on. But he was friends with these guys. Okay, so Todd, are you ready to talk about the Brat Pack and what and who’s in it? Please. Okay, so this person created something about, it said the Brat Pack consists of three tiers.

Cathy: Okay. 

Todd: Okay. 

Cathy: There’s the Brat Pack inner circle. Okay. The Brat Pack adjacent. Okay. And the Next Generation Brat Pack. Okay. And it includes actors who met, you know, and, and that they have to meet this criteria. Okay. Okay. You ready for the criteria? Let’s hear 

Clip: it. 

Cathy: They played a teenager or very young adult in multiple popular films in the eighties that were aimed at young audiences.

Cathy: And for a period of time, we’re defined by that. Example, like Taps, or Fast Times at Richmond High, or War [00:39:00] Games, or Ferris Bueller’s Day Off, or something to that. 

Todd: This is, by definition, an expan I would say, an expanded I always thought the Brat Pack was like a six person club. 

Cathy: Right. And so, but there’s more, there’s more things that you have to meet.

Cathy: That’s one criteria. Number two, they became famous in movies, not on TV, first. 

Todd: Okay. So, first that takes Michael J Fox. Correct. 

Cathy: Takes Michael J Fox out. He was in Back to the Future and Teen Wolf, as we know is one of my favorites. Um, and. Let’s see. And even though Molly Ringwald is weird here because she was in Facts of Life, right, so, but they’re saying that that’s not really where she was known.

Cathy: She was kind of peripheral. Well, she was one 

Todd: of like the 10 people in Facts of Life. It’s 

Cathy: before they narrowed it down to the four. Yeah. Mrs. Garrett is younger than us, by the way. 

Todd: Love it. Natalie, Joe, um, Blair, and Tootie, 

Cathy: Tootie, 

Todd: Tootie, not Tootie, Tootie. Tutti. 

Cathy: Tutti. 

Todd: Tutti. 

Cathy: She was on roller skates. 

Todd: Yes, she was.

Cathy: Okay. Number three. They were in The Outsiders, [00:40:00] The Breakfast Club, St. Elmo’s Fire, or more than one of these films. Okay. Okay? So this is another level. Okay, so now we’re narrowing it down. Correct. So, we got The Outsiders, Breakfast Club, St. Elmo’s Fire, or more than one of these three. Yeah. Okay? Um, number four.

Cathy: They were in at least one John Hughes teen movie. Mm hmm. So, Blum’s article was published before Weird Science, Pretty in Pink, Ferris Bueller’s Day Off, and Some Kind of Wonderful. Okay. So, um, those movies aren’t as connected to the Brad Pack, even though there’s Brad Packy people in it. Yeah. Okay? The last one.

Cathy: They co starred in a project with at least one of the actors in the Brat Pack inner circle or Brat Pack adjacent. Yeah. Okay. So then here’s the people and how many categories. Okay. Got it. So you ready? Let’s hear it. Do you want to like say names and I’ll tell you where they are? Andrew McCarthy. Okay.

Cathy: Andrew McCarthy. Is, um, [00:41:00] he met all five. Of course he did. Judd Nelson. Um, Judd Nelson met all five. Rob Lowe. He met one, two, three, and five. He didn’t, he was never in a John Hughes movie. 

Todd: Emilio, Emilio Estevez, or Estevez. 

Cathy: He is, again, he was considered the president of the Brat Pack, so of course he met all five.

Todd: Uh, Molly Ringwald. Met 

Cathy: all five. Demi 

Todd: Moore. 

Cathy: Demi Moore, uh, 5. She was never in a John Hughes movie. 

Todd: Um, and that’s who I think is the most. And now I can just throw out other actors if you want. 

Cathy: Okay, so let me, so just to bring this, like ground this, this is the um, this is the inner circle of the Brat Pack that people consider to be the inner circle.

Cathy: Molly Ringwald. Yeah. Emilio Estevez. Now this guy wasn’t mentioned at all. Anthony Michael Hall. Yeah. He meets all five criteria. He was 

Todd: next on my list. 

Cathy: Yeah. So he’s not mentioned in the, in the Bloom article or Blum article. How do you [00:42:00] say the guy’s name? Blum or Bloom? Whatever. Um, he was probably still super young.

Todd: The only reason I don’t, he’s not first on my list is because he wasn’t in St. Elmo’s. 

Cathy: He wasn’t in St. Elmo’s, but he was in 16 Candles Breakfast Club. And then after that he was in Weird Science. Think of Anthony Michael Hall 

Todd: as a John Hughes guy. Yeah. And then St. Elmo’s is obviously written by somebody else directly.

Todd: And Joel Schumacher. Joel Schumacher. Um, so I, I think, uh, I mean, there’s so many John Hughes actors and actresses that I separate out from Brett, Brett, Brett Peck stuff. Brett 

Cathy: Plack. Um, Affleck. Affleck. Um, but he still met all five criteria, which is interesting. I totally hear you and I think it’s an interesting, but for him to be in 16 Handles and The Breakfast Club and to not even be considered, um, Ally Sheedy.

Cathy: Uh, she was in War Games, uh, Oxford Blues, Breakfast Club, and she met all five criteria. Okay. Uh, Judd Nelson. Yeah. He met all five. Yeah. Okay. Um, Rob [00:43:00] Lowe, one, two, three, and five. As we already said, he didn’t meet four because he wasn’t in a John Hughes movie. Demi Moore, one, two, three, and five. Andrew McCarthy, all five.

Cathy: We already said. So those are who people consider the inner circle. Yeah. Okay. There you go. So here’s adjacent. Yep. Well, do you want to guess adjacent? I don’t know how much game you want to do here. 

Todd: Um, Matthew Broderick? Let’s see if he’s on the list. Well, Leah Thompson identified herself as adjacent. 

Cathy: Yep, Leah Thompson, um, she said she was Brad Pack adjacent.

Cathy: She was Tom Cruise’s girlfriend in All the Right Moves. was in Space Camp with Leif Phoenix, who is Joaquin Phoenix, and she was in Back to the Future, and then of course Some Kind of Wonderful. So her, she met Criteria 5. Oh, wow. Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. Uh, that’s all I got. 

Cathy: Okay, so Matt Dillon. So first one. 

Todd: Yeah, he’s So, 

Cathy: yeah, he’s, he was in My Bodyguard.

Cathy: Do you remember him in My Bodyguard? 

Todd: Loved My Bodyguard. I did [00:44:00] too. Billion times. He’s a good, he’s a good bad guy. 

Cathy: You know, on the Rewatchables, they just did Breaking Away. Mm hmm. Um, and My Bodyguard, Meatballs, and Breaking Away were kind of my just moving into adolescent. You know what I mean? Like, those movies just remind me, because it was like, my dad kind of liked them before I did.

Cathy: Whereas once we got into John Hughes, I liked them, you know? Um, so Matt Dillon was, he, he actually met Criteria 1, 2, and 5. Um, but he was in Tex, The Outsiders, Rumble Fish, a bunch of things. The next one, Todd, are you going to play something? 

Todd: Um, yeah. I just don’t know how appropriate it’s going to be. Okay, maybe don’t.

Todd: Just a little bit of Matt Dillon from Something About Mary. Oh, these? They’re just some, uh, projects I’m working on. Museum. Hospital. For kids. 

Cathy: Really? Are you an architect? So I 

Todd: get my, uh, PGA Tour card. He’s a really funny character in that movie. He’s great. 

Cathy: What other [00:45:00] Matt Dillon stuff do we, oh, duh, singles.

Cathy: Uh, yeah. 

Todd: Citizen 

Cathy: Dick. Citizen Dick. 

Todd: Uh, Matt Dillon. Yeah, he’s got a bunch of good stuff. I loved Matt Dillon. 

Cathy: I loved Matt Dillon. He was still, he was on my wall. Cause he was in The Outsiders, you know, he’s one of those guys. And he was Not Derry. Derry was, who was Matt Dillon? What was his name? Dillon?

Todd: Dallas Winston. 

Cathy: Dallas. That’s right. Okay. John Cusack. He needs one, two, four, and five. So Chicago guy, as we all know, he was in class. Sixteen Candles, The Sure Thing, which I love. Better Off Dead, which is one of my favorites. Um, say anything and Lloyd Dobler is like, you know, he’s an icon. Yes, 

Clip: for sure. 

Cathy: So he’s still considered adjacent.

Cathy: Charlie Sheen, um, he meets criteria one, two, four, and five. He wasn’t in, it says he wasn’t, oh no, he met one, two, four, and five. He was in a John Hughes movie. Um, he was in Lucas, Red Dawn, Ferris Bueller, blah, blah, blah. Ralph Macchio. 

Todd: Uh, The Karate Kid. [00:46:00] Danielson. 

Cathy: Yep. The Outsiders, Karate Kid, and then Teachers.

Cathy: I don’t remember that movie. 

Todd: Because it was a bad movie. 

Cathy: 1, were the criteria he met. Leah Thompson, we already said. Um, Jennifer Grey. 

Todd: Uh, yeah. Dirty Dancing Lady. Yeah. 

Cathy: She met criteria 1, She was in, uh, Red Dawn, Ferris Bueller’s Day Off, Dirty Dancing, um, so again, adjacent. And then, our buddy C. Thomas Howell, um, you know, Ponyboy, The Outsiders, he got the, the prime role, right?

Cathy: Um, he met Criteria 1, he was in E. T., The Outsiders, Red Dawn, and Soulman, which no one should ever see again. Yes. Um, Eric Stoltz. Uh, yeah. Eric Stoltz. 

Todd: Jerry Maguire. 

Cathy: Jerry Maguire, which, and that’s what’s so funny is he, Cameron Crowe loves him. Yeah, 

Todd: he’s an old Cameron Crowe. 

Cathy: But he was in Fast Times. Um, he was in Some Kind of Wonderful and he wasn’t saying anything.

Cathy: He tells Lloyd that he’s the key master. Yes, he is. He makes him be the key master. Um, and [00:47:00] then, so those are the adjacent people. 

Todd: Quite a few. 

Cathy: Yeah. So, and I’m surprised Michael J. Fox isn’t in that. But here we go. This is the last ring. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Cathy: Okay. 

Todd: The third. 

Cathy: The next gen Brad Pack. And I have to say I don’t agree with all these.

Cathy: Okay. Okay. So this basically means the teen stars who emerged in the latter half of the decade. So early 80s was like really John Hughes y, and latter half of the decade was, they weren’t even, you know. Yeah. They hadn’t even begun yet, right? So, Winona Ryder. 

Todd: Oh, okay. 

Cathy: Okay, Lucas, Beetlejuice. Um, and then she was in Heathers.

Cathy: Yeah. Which, totally, that’s, you know, everything happened. But she met Criteria 1, Oh, interesting. Yeah. Keanu Reeves. What? Yeah, it says he was in River’s Edge. Parenthood, Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure, and um, he co starred with River Phoenix, and no, he was in Youngblood with Rob Lowe, and then he was with Winona [00:48:00] Ryder.

Cathy: He met Criteria 1, Interesting. Yeah. Christian Slater. 

Todd: Heathers. Heathers. Yeah. 

Cathy: Legend of Billie Jean, um, Heathers, and then Pump Up the Volume and Young Guns 2, and then he was with Emilio Estevez. Again, later in the 80s, but he met Criteria 1, 2, and 5. 

Todd: Interesting. 

Cathy: Um, River Phoenix. Yeah, he died in 1993. He was in Explorers, Stand By Me, A Night in the Life of Jimmy Reardon, The Mosquito Coast, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, and then Stand By Me.

Cathy: Um, and John Cusack was in that movie with him, as we know. He met Criteria 1, 2, and 5. Now again, let’s go back. All of these that we’re reading, basically, I want to focus on the fact that the 80s, when Todd and I grew up, when a lot of you grew up, everything was very focused around young people. Like, all of these actors, their movies weren’t just random movies, they were movies that were aimed at us.

Cathy: And so that’s kind of this whole Brat Packy thing. So even if they’re adjacent or up and [00:49:00] coming. And this one, I have a little bit of a problem with. The Corys. Corey 

Todd: Haim and Corey Feldman. 

Cathy: Yes. So, Feldman was in Gremlins, Goonies, Stand By Me. Goonies. Haim was in Lucas, uh, The Lost Boys. And so was Feldman, he was in Lost Boys, Licensed to Drive and Dream a Little Dream.

Cathy: So they together met criteria one, two, and five. So I kind of have, not about Corey Hain, because he passed away a long time ago, I don’t have any jokes about him, but Corey Feldman, I don’t know. 

Todd: He needs some work. 

Cathy: He’s just trying to revive his career in ways that I just don’t think he has that skill set.

Cathy: Yeah. So, you don’t. Anyway, I’m just not gonna say it. I don’t want to be mean to anybody. Okay, so last thing, Todd, the people left off the list that I could think of. Okay. Okay, because all of these people, again, are the inner circle, the adjacent, and these are the up and coming. The people they didn’t even mention, Robert Downey Jr.,

Cathy: Where’s he? 

Todd: Yeah. Cause he was in Weird Science and I don’t know. 

Cathy: [00:50:00] And then Less Than Zero. Yeah. That was aimed at young people. He was with Andrew McCarthy in that movie. Again, I know this is a little after the article, but you’d think he’d be somewhere in here. Michael J. Fox, who we already talked about.

Cathy: James Spader. Steph. That’s right. Our buddy Steph. 

Todd: Can’t forget about Steph. He’s the best. Got a problem, friend? One of the best movie characters of all time. 

Cathy: Steph wears linen suits. He drinks straight brandy. He rolls his own cigarettes. He was an 18 year old that really took it up a notch. Let’s just say that.

Todd: Hold on, I got pretty in pink the stuff at it. You know, if you got a hard on for trash, don’t take care of it around those, pal, alright? Right, buddy. Listen, I don’t need a lot of shit on this one, Blaine, alright? I really don’t. 

Clip: You really don’t think she’s got something? 

Todd: No. I really don’t. I’m sorry. Listen, I’m getting really bored with this conversation, right?

Todd: Oh, 

Cathy: Steph. Okay, that was [00:51:00] like a big thing in Pretty in Pink where they’d always be like, she’s got something. What does that mean? Like, she’s hot, she has a special, like, don’t you think she’s got something? 

Todd: I don’t know. I mean, I’ve never, Molly Ringwald’s never been somebody who I’ve considered super, super attractive.

Todd: You 

Cathy: aren’t attracted to her, but the world is attracted to her. 

Todd: Right. Right. She’s 

Cathy: very 

Todd: beautiful. Not speaking on behalf of humanity, just, just Todd. 

Cathy: Yes, you, 

Todd: but And I love her in all the movies. Right, she’s awesome. Yeah. 

Cathy: Um, and, but it’s just, I always thought that was interesting. Like what is it? You know, she’s, she’s, she’s different.

Cathy: She’s quirky. She’s out of the mainstream. Like she’s got something. Um, and then our buddy Billy Zabka. Like, I know he doesn’t have a name that they do, but he, William Zabka, for those who don’t know, if you watch Cobra Kai, then you, he’s back in your life, but he’s Johnny in The Karate Kid. He’s also in Just One of the Guys.

Cathy: He’s also, what’s another movie that he was, he was all, he always played kind of a [00:52:00] jerk. 

Todd: Yes. 

Cathy: Um, is he in the second Karate Kid? 

Todd: Well, he’s in the beginning. The beginning, yeah. Which actually ended up being the end of the first one that they took out. Right. Um, so there’s 11 and a half minutes of Johnny and Cobra Kai moments, so we’re not going to be able to get

Todd: Hey, okay, we’ll figure this out, alright? Just quit bitching at me. 

Cathy: What did you just call me? 

Todd: No, no, no, no, no. I didn’t call her a bitch. I said she was bitching at me. There’s a difference. You’re firing me because of that bitch? Oh, jeez, you gotta Mercy is for the weak. You gotta cut that off. In the street, in competition, a man confronts you.

Todd: He is the enemy. An enemy deserves no mercy. What is the problem, Mr. Diaz? There’s no problem, Sensei. You can punch me now. I have asthma, so Not anymore. We do not allow weakness in this dojo. Uh, he’s the [00:53:00] best. 

Cathy: So why Cobra Kai is so great for, and those of you who watch it know, is he just takes Johnny from the 80s and imposes him on this.

Cathy: No 

Todd: evolution. Yeah, 

Cathy: none. He is not evolved. I mean, he does during Cobra Kai, but it’s like taking this character and just putting him in this time and space and it’s hilarious. And then one more person, Elizabeth Shue. Uh. Where’d she go? Party kid, leave Las Vegas. Well, leaving Las Vegas is so much later, but she was in Adventures in Babysitting.

Cathy: Cocktail. She was in Cocktail, so she was a Tom Cruise. Like, I kind of feel like they left her out of the loop, and maybe she was happy to be left out of the loop. But, um, anyway, I, those were, I thought, interesting things. And they are You know, like I said, the movie really just is about how you resolve and integrate your past.

Cathy: You know? And some people did it a lot easier than others. Boom. 

Todd: Okay. Yeah. Uh, so we’re 53 in. Uh. Wanna 

Cathy: just do like a brief about Inside Out? How about 

Todd: we just play [00:54:00] a little bit of the trailer. And let’s see what happens here. 

Cathy: It’s joy coming to you live in Riley’s mind. Make some noise. We gotta get our mouth guard, people.

Cathy: Disgust. Good to have her on our team. Our little girl’s growing up so fast. Sorry. 

Clip: It should be nothing but smooth sailing from now on. 

Cathy: Hello! I’m Anxiety. Where can I put my stuff? A new emotion! Oh, I’m sorry. We wanted to make such a good first impression. What do you mean, we? I’m Envy! Oh, yeah, not happening.

Cathy: That’s on we. On what? 

Clip: It’s what you would call the boredom. 

Cathy: What’s your name, big fella? That’s embarrassment. [00:55:00] Welcome to Headquarters, Embarrassment. Oh, we’re doing a fit. No, oh, no, going high. You got a real sweaty palm there, buddy.

Todd: Embarrassment. He’s embarrassed. Um, it broke some records this weekend. It 

Cathy: sure did. 155 million US opening, 295 million globally. Oh, that’s a lot of money. Yeah. So they’re calling it the, uh, Pixar comeback. Not that I thought Pixar needed one, but I guess financially. 

Todd: few that we haven’t seen in the theater.

Todd: And you know, if they’ve come out with Pixar movies that we haven’t seen, that that’s a problem. Yeah. Because they’re always so good. 

Cathy: Yeah. They can, they are more events than other movies are. And so, this one, we even went to Pixar. to see it in the theater. Obviously, that’s why we’re talking about it. And it was fun because all of our daughters were home.

Cathy: Yeah. So like the five of us went to a movie and they’re 21, 19, and 16. So, so fun to go to a movie together. No doubt. I was like, when’s the last time we’ve done this? We [00:56:00] did go see Barbie together, but Cameron wasn’t with us. So that’s 

Todd: nuts. 

Cathy: Um, so we were missing her. But anyway, it was just really fun. And it was an hour and a half movie.

Cathy: I highly recommend it. I need 

Todd: to see it again because it’s kind of, you know, A five year old would love this movie on the very surface y colors and emotions. They’ll get the basics, but it’s a really smart movie and one that I feel like if I watched again, I would get a lot more out of it. 

Cathy: Me too. And there’s layers and layers and layers, right?

Cathy: There’s always, like, the girls were reading about, you know, Easter eggs in the movie. Things that if you, if you don’t stop it, you know, we’ll be able to see it when it’s streaming. We’ll be able to, like, Be able to pause it and see things, but you know, it’s Pixar. They always have cool stuff. Um, for those going to see it, you may already have heard this, but Bill Hader and Mindy Kaling do not reprise their roles.

Cathy: Oh, I 

Todd: didn’t know that that wasn’t Mindy who plays 

Cathy: Uh, she’s an actress, a Filipino actress. Why would they not have [00:57:00] brought those people back? Well, what’s being reported Is that they were each offered a hundred thousand dollars and that they said no Amy Poehler was given five million dollars. Holy crap.

Cathy: So that’s what’s being reported. Like I don’t know But you know, that’s what everybody says and so but it’s interesting because fear is Tony Hale who’s amazing You know, if you’ve watched Veep or Arrested Development. A hundred thousand 

Todd: dollars 

Cathy: does not sound like that much money 

Todd: For a Pixar movie to Bill Hader’s and Mindy Kaling’s talent.

Cathy: I know. And when I was watching it before I read this, cause this is what came out this morning, about the a hundred thousand dollars, I kind of thought Pixar was like, listen, we have this much money to work with. They had to bring in, uh, my hawk to be, um, to be anxiety. And they brought in, uh, that awesome girl from the bear, um, AO to be Envy.

Cathy: Um, and then they brought in that guy from. What is it that movie called that we watch? He’s [00:58:00] also in Cobra Kai. He’s Embarrassment. He barely has any lines, but he is. So they probably are like, we have to bring in all these new people. Oh, and then the Ennui character, the one who’s so bored. She’s hilarious.

Cathy: Yeah. So, I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know how things like this work. 

Todd: Yeah, and I missed Bill Hader. I did not, I just, I, You assumed it was Mindy Kaling? That was Mindy. So anyways, but yeah, it’s a wonderful, wonderful movie. Take your kids, go see it. Is it PG or PG 13? I don’t even know. It’s gotta be PG, right?

Cathy: It’s gotta be. I mean, I would hope it’s, Yeah, it’s gotta be. Is it G? 

Todd: No. No. Is any movie G these days? I don’t 

Cathy: know. You know, what I will say though, everybody is, um, You know, we had a lot of discussions about it afterwards. I think what’s so helpful, I get excited when I see movies like this and I realize how many kids are going to see it.

Cathy: And like Todd said, really young ones aren’t going to get the deeper meaning. But for those who are, you know, getting into those adolescent years, to understand that Everybody has these [00:59:00] feelings. I know it sounds so general, but I’m telling you guys, I talked to teenage girls. They’re like, I felt this way, other people don’t.

Cathy: They don’t understand that this is just the way it is when you’re this age. And I especially loved the blending of the characters, like how, uh, the girl would go, there was a scene where Riley is like talking to this girl that’s, you know, she’s really Excited about because she’s like the leader of the hockey team and and she moves from anxiety to envy to boredom to she like moves in and out all these things and she’s trying to be cool.

Cathy: Now, obviously, in the movie, the perspective we have is it’s so uncool, but she’s trying to be cool. And a lot of times I, I’ve heard this from my own girls, but lots of other girls is they’ll be like, Oh yeah, this person was like so removed or, you know, they were being so bored. They must be so confident.

Cathy: I’m like, that’s not confidence. That’s a lot of times that ennui character where they’re like pretending that they don’t care. 

Todd: Well, and the reason I love it so much is as we’ve been talking over the last few months on the podcast, how big into parts work I am. This is parts work personified. Like this is what it’s all [01:00:00] about.

Todd: And the fact that we can see their personalities and their voices and their movements. Makes it easier for me to do my own work. 

Cathy: And how they blend with each other. You know, there’s a nice, I don’t know how much I want to give away, but there’s like a nice evolving of all the characters where you see how they accept each other.

Cathy: Um, especially right at the beginning with Sadness and Joy where they’ve come, they evolved from the past movie. They’re like, yeah, we need each other, right? They don’t have to learn that, relearn that. And, and I’ll say, um, That there is probably one of the best, um, examples of what a panic attack can feel like.

Cathy: Um, and I think that that’s another thing that people don’t know is very common. Um, I think somehow panic attacks got associated with nervous breakdowns somewhere along the way. So people don’t talk about them as much. I think this generation is cool with it a little more. But Todd and I I’ve had panic attacks, and Todd has too, and I remember when we shared that with each other, there was kind of like a, oh, [01:01:00] nobody else has this experience.

Cathy: And it’s not true. I think sometimes we just don’t talk about it. And really, it’s just, I mean, you know, as the movie shows, it’s when our anxiety has taken hold and we can’t see anything else. No, 

Todd: the anxiety has is driving the bus. Completely. There’s nobody else that’s even inside the bus. It’s just that is, that part has taken over and inflated itself to the point where, yeah, I’ve had two of them, one in a hotel room one time and one in an airplane and Terrifying.

Cathy: Yeah. And they are, um, you can’t reach out of it. And one thing that I’m just trying to, I’m just debating how much to share. I, but one of the things that I’ll just say it this way, there’s a part during that time with the panic attack where there’s an instinct to just tell her she’s a good person. Okay.

Cathy: Or to make her just be like, you’re a good person. And that [01:02:00] can’t be felt either because then that almost makes you feel worse about having the panic attack. You need to be able to accept every aspect of yourself that you need. It’s okay to be many things that you aren’t just a good person. You are also often flawed and you make poor choices and you were mean to someone.

Cathy: You were also nice to someone. You were also good to your parents. You were also not good to your parents. Like you are many things. And I think the thing about, um, adulthood is accepting, to your point with parts work, Todd, is accepting we are many things. 

Todd: Well, before you can even accept something, you need to know that it’s there.

Todd: Exactly. So, first thing is awareness. Right. That there’s this part of me. Second, if you’re lucky, you can accept it. And then, if you do even more work, you can learn how to appreciate it. 

Cathy: Exactly, and that’s another thing that all the parts that we might feel like are. Uh, you know, we might call negative, just like in the original movie, we’d say [01:03:00] fear was bad when really there’s a great scene where fear has a parachute.

Cathy: I’ll just say that. And they’re all like, why do you have a parachute? And he goes, my question to all of you is why do you not have a parachute? And that’s exactly what fear is helpful for, right? Somebody, there’s a part of you that’s like willing to, is, has enough fear that you’re like, I’m going to. Yeah.

Cathy: Yeah. Do some protective measures here. That’s wise. That’s not negative. That’s wise. 

Todd: Well, yeah. As I’ve said, there’s no negative emotion. There’s plenty of negative ways we can express emotion, but I call them comfortable or uncomfortable 

Cathy: emotions. For 

Todd: sure. Joy is most often comfortable. 

Cathy: Yeah. 

Todd: Anger, fear, sadness is most of the time uncomfortable.

Cathy: Yeah. 

Todd: But not negative or positive. 

Cathy: Correct. They were, they’re all necessary. Even like, you know, Envy is a new character and they don’t really talk about this specific thing but what we know about Envy, especially in a clinical way, is that Envy is your guide to tell you what you want. [01:04:00] Like if you envy something about somebody.

Cathy: It’s a good guide that it’s something that you want to do. Like Todd and I both went through periods of time where we were watching other people speak or we were going to other people’s conferences. And it’s not about saying they weren’t doing a good job, but we would like talk to each other and be like, I’ll cover it up.

Cathy: And, and the envy of other people is what drove us to do what we do, you know, but And then other things I see people do and I’m like, uninterested, right? I don’t feel that envy in my body. So it’s, these are guiding lights for us. Um, you know, um, and then last thing, I’m not going to say it, but there is a line in this movie that is a killer.

Cathy: There’s a lot of lines, but there’s one that I cried through the most of the movie. Um, just because. Yeah, your napkins were all torn up. I know. I had all these napkins because I knew I’d cry and they were like gone. So I cry a lot. I’m not saying you’ll do that, but there is a line in this movie that I think everybody in the theater was like, whoa.

Cathy: Oh, I can’t 

Todd: wait to hear what that 

Cathy: is. Yeah. Yeah. So [01:05:00] tell 

Todd: me after we 

Cathy: start recording. I will. I’ll let people figure it out for themselves. Okay. 

Todd: So, uh, in conclusion, um, we talked about the Chain Breakers at the beginning. We talked about Brat’s documentary and then Inside Out Part 2. 

Cathy: And you know, we didn’t talk about this, but my sub stack last week was about Pride.

Cathy: Um, happy Pride, everybody. I don’t feel like we’ve talked about that enough on the show, um, since June began. Mm And, um, so last week I wrote something about, um, pride and parenting and how to be allies. And, um, and I got a lot of feedback from people about things that they would have liked me to refine in it.

Cathy: And I totally appreciate that. Um, and it was just, it was just a celebration. That’s what this month is. 

Todd: Um, so yeah, and don’t forget about Team Zen and our, our sponsor this week is Jeremy Kraft. He’s a Baldheaded Beauty. He does painting and remodeling throughout the Chicagoland area. Uh, his number is 6 3 [01:06:00] 0 9 5 6 1800.

Todd: Website is Hopefully we’ll see you tomorrow, Zen talk. If not, we’ll see you next Tuesday. Keep trucking.