[00:00:00]
Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 754 while listening to Zen Parenting Radio because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s wellbeing is a parent’s self understanding.
Cathy: Todd, I want you to move your lights. You, like, look at your Look how tiny my forehead is? Like, I feel like they’re not serving you. Oh, I don’t care. I know. I’m not worried about how you look as much as, like, I feel like there’s another way to, yeah, like, maybe space them out, maybe.
Todd: We’re doing this
Cathy: live. I know, you guys, if you’re not on YouTube, you can’t see this.
Cathy: And it’s fine, like Is that better? Not really, but it’s, I just [00:01:00] don’t know why I have the exact same lights, but it doesn’t seem to do that to me. Maybe I
Todd: just have a shinier forehead.
Cathy: No, I don’t think that’s it. I think it’s your light. Anyway. I’m pretty sure I didn’t do anything just now. I’m pretty sure you didn’t, but let it, let
Todd: us continue.
Todd: I just need that powder. Don’t they do that on TV where they give you that powder? Yeah,
Cathy: but it looks more like a shine from the light, not like a skin shine.
Todd: How about I just turn these lights off? See what happens there. See what happens there.
Cathy: I think it’s, maybe it’s because you’re more under that light we don’t like.
Cathy: What’s that called? This is,
Todd: yeah. It’s got nothing to do with those lights.
Cathy: Yeah. Interesting.
Todd: Okay. This is the best first 90 seconds of a podcast ever. It’s important. Um, sweetie, tease the
Cathy: podcast. Well, I think we’re going to talk about two things. I think we’re going to talk about my Zen parenting moment from last week only because it was kind of an interesting conversation that I had had with my kids.
Cathy: And so I. Kind of elaborated on that conversation. And then I also wanted to talk about how often you scare me. [00:02:00] Um, you startle me
Todd: a lot. Yeah. I was gonna say, hold on a second.
Cathy: You don’t scare me.
Cathy: Okay. Ah, um, you don’t scare me. Like frighten me. You startle me. Yeah. And I wanted to talk about it because I. I sometimes see lots of, like, armchair psychologists talk about why that is. And when I say armchair, I mean, like, on TikTok, there’s all sorts of people. I was telling Todd that sometimes when I’m on Reels or TikTok, there’s these people who will be like, you have this disorder if these three things happen to you.
Cathy: And I’m like, wow, that’s a pretty, uh, that’s, I, I, it’s unbelievable to me that people. Put information out there like that, because it’s so not, I’m not saying that there aren’t cases where these three things could lead to or be part of an issue, but to be so adamant about it, it’s very, it can be kind of harmful.
Cathy: Truth.
Todd: Yeah. I’m [00:03:00] not a fan. I would say that most people should probably go to their doctor to be diagnosed versus.
Cathy: Instagram. Well, I would say a therapist. I don’t go to, I wouldn’t say go to a doctor. Doctor
Todd: of therapy. John Duffy’s a doctor, right?
Cathy: But I am also a therapist and I am not a doctor. Um, okay. So yeah.
Cathy: Do you see what I mean? Yeah. Because people go to their general practitioner often and I know, I’m no beef against general
Todd: practitioners. So can you diagnose, you could diagnose people, you just can’t, you can’t, uh, prescribe meds. Right. And neither can Duffy. Oh, he can’t prescribe, but you can diagnose all you want.
Todd: Yeah. So the people
Cathy: that diagnose medication are psychiatrists, medical doctors, or nurse practitioners. And there may be something else in the mix that I’m unaware of, but it’s not doctors of psychology or licensed clinical social
Todd: workers. So have you diagnosed people? Of course. Like, hey, you are this. Mm hmm.
Todd: I did that. I, yeah. And you That’s what a therapist does.
Cathy: And But I don’t use insurance anymore. Like now, because I don’t have to use insurance, [00:04:00] when I see people, that’s not part of what I do anymore. I took that off the You know, got rid of that. Yeah, so, but, um, so now that’s not as important because you have to have a diagnosis to
Todd: get insurance.
Todd: Got it. Now it’s all starting to click.
Cathy: And then, you know, all of my time at Children’s, that’s what we did. That’s what the therapist did is kids would come in and we’d diagnose them. I
Todd: heard that Lori’s had, uh, some, um, some breach in their computer system and people can’t. Um, uh, get an appointment like they, nothing works.
Todd: So people are literally like taking appointments by pen and paper. When did this happen? Like in the last week. I don’t know. I was talking to somebody. I don’t know if it was a client of mine or what, but, uh, it’s just not going well over at Laurier.
Cathy: So the breach is in the appointment system, not in people’s diagnoses.
Todd: No, I just think it’s like the whole system kind of broke down. I’m sure if we Googled it, you’d see it. Okay. Um. Uh, so
Cathy: anyways. Yeah. So anyways, going back to diagnosing, [00:05:00] I, that is something that people who go through a certain training, that’s what they’re trained to do. And then there’s people who read some books and they, they have, or, you know, a lot of the people that I see on TikTok actually are, you know, oftentimes psychologists or social workers or clinicians in some way, and they still kind of do these absolute.
Cathy: things. And I always just think that’s a little, I think we have to be more careful than that, because I, I think that our younger people view that and then make assumptions about themselves. Um, I know that this is for sure, you know, the girls I talk to who are teenagers. Self diagnose themselves all the time.
Cathy: You know, they’ll be like, well, I have this. Because they’ve seen something or read an article or whatever. And could they be right? Possibly. I’m not saying they are not smart. What I’m saying is it takes more than that. Do you know what I mean?
Todd: I do, and when you started talking about therapy, then I heard about doctors and diagnosis, and then I thought of medicine, and then I thought of this.[00:06:00]
Todd: They don’t take, they don’t take too long to really tell you what the song’s about. Who was, who was screaming at the Kinison for some reason. Why was Sam Kinison screaming? I don’t know, he’s in the beginning of the Bon Jovi video.
Cathy: Um, you know, I have a funny story with this song. What is it? Is that Bon Jovi, obviously, when we were in high school, was huge, right?
Cathy: Slippery when wet, you know, whole thing. Um, and then Bad Medicine, of course. Um, was, wasn’t that the name of the second album? After, I mean, not second, but third album? Anyway, they had a huge, you know, they had a huge, like, heyday time. And then, I think they kind of lost something there in the middle? Because I remember my friend Jess, she went to What is the thing in Wisconsin with all the, um, Summerfest and she said they were playing and that there just weren’t that many [00:07:00] people there or that they were singing bad medicine and Jon Bon Jovi was like, is there a doctor in the house?
Cathy: And she was like, Oh boy. But then. They had like a huge resurgence. Like they came
Todd: back. Well, it’s because us old people, um, started going to shows again because our kids got a little bit older. And then all of a sudden Is that why? I don’t know. I’m just making stuff up. Well,
Cathy: and I think he’s, they started coming out with new songs, but then Then, but wait, there’s more, but wait, there’s more.
Cathy: You and I and Manisha and Chris went to see Bon Jovi at probably a decade ago. And we were so excited because it was kind of in their resurgence era and Richie Sambora was not playing guitar. And we were like, where, where is Richie? I should have had a sign that says, where is Richie?
Todd: Um, I’m trying to pull up their albums, but I’m, I’m just too lazy and I don’t want to.
Cathy: Well, how, how are you trying to, but it’s too
Todd: hard? It’s not working out, sweetie. Just to work it out. [00:08:00] I don’t know if it’s right. The Google? The Googles? How many albums are there? Uh, 15 studio albums. I would have guessed
Cathy: two. Okay, so I remember the, what was kind of popular when we went was It’s My Life. Um, that album.
Cathy: Okay. And then they did like, Bon Jovi did that song with Jennifer Nettles. I, I just remembered they were being like, and, and now I, I don’t know how people feel about them
Todd: now. So 1984 Bon Jovi, 1985 7, 800 Fahrenheit. Okay.
Cathy: Don’t remember that. 86 Slippery When Wet. Yes. That was, that was our high school. 88 New Jersey.
Cathy: New Jersey. Okay. 92 Keep the
Todd: Faith. Yeah.
Cathy: That was a good album.
Todd: Uh, 95 These Days. Don’t know that. 2000 Rush. Don’t know that. 2002 Crush. No, Bounce. Don’t know. 2003, This Left Feels Right. Don’t know that album. 2005, Have a Nice Day. Know that, I know that album. Uh, 2007, Lost Highway. I know that album. 2009, The Circle.
Todd: Don’t know that album. [00:09:00] 2013, What About Now? What about now? I don’t think I know that album. 2015, Burning Bridges. Mm mm. Let the bridges I burn light my way, Dylan McKay. Even though I never saw a single episode of that show. You
Cathy: say, you talk about Dylan, but then the other day, not the other day, but fairly recently we were talking about 90210 and you’re like, I didn’t watch it.
Cathy: I’m like, then why are you quoting Dylan
Todd: McKay? Because my friend Brian, uh, always uses that line when he Wants to be an idiot. Okay. Let the bridges I burn light my way. Yeah, that’s not a good
Cathy: motto
Todd: for life Don’t tell that to Dylan McKay because he made it through just fine. He was uh, he did great in that show Didn’t he?
Todd: No,
Cathy: and I mean Luke Perry is not Dylan McKay, but he has
Todd: passed I know but you can’t that’s got nothing to do with Dylan McKay. That’s true.
Cathy: I just it’s it’s all rough It
Todd: is all rough. Okay, I’m gonna play. Oh first this Zen parenting moment is brought to you by David Serrano. It is. Personal financial advisor to Kathy and I and maybe to [00:10:00] you.
Todd: He offers one on one financial advice, helping people figure out the balance between saving for college, saving for retirement, blah blah blah. You ready for my new tagline for him? Uh oh. He’s smart. He’s trustworthy. He’s David Serrano. Like, like that? I just came up with it. You should
Cathy: get him a shirt that says that.
Todd: I should. Next time you sponsor the conference, I’m gonna
Cathy: buy him a shirt. You know what? It is true, though. That is one, that is, it is nice. Yes. There are certain people that Todd and I have in our life, I think everybody does, I hope, but that they’re so, you’re like, I feel so lucky that we’ve been able to work together.
Cathy: Truth. Do you know what It’s been really good.
Todd: Um, his phone number is 815 370 3780. Call him up for a free consultation and tell him Todd and Kathy sent ya. Um, okay, so this is the first. So you did a Zen Parenting Moment. You included a quote. Yes, I did. And here we go.[00:11:00]
Cathy: But then I grew stay home made.
Cathy: So I hope I never me again.
Todd: I’ve never heard of this song until you included it. Do you know
Cathy: Kelsey
Todd: Ballerini? Uh, I don’t, I have no idea who he is, he’s a ballerina.
Cathy: I think you probably, if I were to go back in time, there was a period of time where we were watching The Voice and she ended up coming on and being one of the judges.
Cathy: I think she was replacing Kelly while Kelly was sick. Oh, alright. A long time ago. Since then, lots have happened in her life, but she came out with an album last year, I think it was called Rolling Up the Welcome Mat, and she, she did, it was not a full Full album. I think it was like seven or eight songs and they were all so good.
Cathy: And it was about her divorce. [00:12:00] Um, and she was married to a singer, also a country singer, and he had written kind of some songs about her. And so this was her reply to him. And, um, And, and it was just really good. So she made a video for, I think, almost all the songs. I remember seeing it almost like a story.
Cathy: Um, anyway, I just always remember those words because, you know, she just realized she got married young and she realized she was kind of pretending and being someone she really wasn’t.
Todd: The name of, um, Um, let’s see, the name of the song is Leave Me Again. Yeah. And so you wrote a Zen Parenting moment called Hiding Ourselves.
Todd: Yes. So what’s going on with this thing? Well, I had
Cathy: this, so I’m, my, I have a lot of people right now helping me get, um, information from teens, teen girls. Um, I have, You know, students that are, that have helped me and I have clients that have helped me and my daughters and their friends have helped me, um, among other people [00:13:00] to gather information about what girls are struggling with right now.
Cathy: And one of the girls, um, there’s kind of a, a Google doc that I can go to and it’s, and people fill it in. And so it’s like, it’s anonymous. Right. But one of the girls had written that she realized, I don’t have it verbatim, so I’ll kind of try to explain it, that, that when she’s with her friends, that she has to kind of leave.
Cathy: She has to be as like, how do I say it? As like basic as possible. And kind of leave parts of herself behind because if you show up true to gregarious with your friends, you’re annoying. And if you are too quirky, you’re kind of annoying and you almost just have to flatline a little bit to be accepted.
Todd: And if you’re too quiet, you don’t say anything, you’re
Cathy: annoying. That can be too. Um, but I think a lot of, and it just depends on who you are. Like there are. You know, this isn’t true for every kid, but what I could relate to [00:14:00] from the way she wrote it was a, this belief that we, that who we are isn’t acceptable.
Cathy: Right. Okay. And that when we go into a situation with people that we have to, Change things or modulate in order to be, um, what she wrote. I remember the last line of it was to be loved or even
Todd: liked. Well, I was going to say to fit in and accept it, but yeah. So there’s
Cathy: the part of us that are like, I want to be loved for who I am.
Cathy: And then we’re like, wait a second. I just want to be in a group of people and be liked. Yeah. I mean, it’s real basic. And I think that why it, I think she’s, um, 16, this girl who wrote this and she, um, and anyway, it ended up being a really good conversation with my daughter then, you know, the next day because I, she and I were talking about that, that that had been written and that, you know, and we really just kind of related to, I think no matter what age you are, there’s this belief that when we go into a situation that we need to kind of chill.
Cathy: or cool it [00:15:00] down or like not be too different or not be too strange or if it’s the way we dress, if it’s the way we do our hair, if it’s the way we do our makeup, the things we’re interested in. Like you and I, because we’ve been doing this show for almost 14 years, there’s been this progression that even I’ve had where, you know, a long time ago I used to like Kind of keep it on the down low, the music that maybe I listen to because I thought people would think it was cheesy or not good enough or whatever.
Cathy: And then you start sharing what you really like and you find that you have people who agree with you or that they’re, even if they don’t agree, they appreciate you being authentic. But I think that takes age.
Todd: Yeah. Well, a few things. One is I’m about to play a clip of the song because it made me think when you said we got to cool it down.
Todd: I know what you’re going to play.
Cathy: Oh,
Todd: watch out. [00:16:00] Sweetie, that’s, that’s what these kids
Cathy: are saying. Sweetie, say all the members of that band.
Todd: Ronnie, Bobby, Ricky and Mike, I love you girl. Here’s who you like. Is that
Cathy: right? That is. But who, so who’s the name of the person who said Ronnie, Bobby, Ricky, and Mike?
Cathy: Uh, it was me. I just said that. I know. But in the band, because he’s not saying his own name.
Todd: Oh, uh, uh, Belbiv Devoe. Well,
Cathy: no, I think he was in Belbiv Devoe. But that came later. MC Hammer. No, babe. Not MC Hammer. And I’m not talking about another band. I’m talking about who, what is the name of the kid in, that’s New Edition, right?
Cathy: I don’t know. It’s New Edition. Okay. And why this is funny, it’s because when One Direction came out, you know, oh so long ago when our girls were little, I used to call them New Direction.
Todd: Judy, you need to cool
Cathy: it now. And my girls would be like, why are you saying New Direction? It’s One Direction. And I think I was getting it mixed up with New Edition.[00:17:00]
Todd: That’s not the only thing we mix up in this household. And our girls are so, like You think that they’re like lost in outer space because Yeah, because I’m like are these kids even paying attention at the moment we say one thing that is culturally wrong They like are ready to pounce. They’re like a bunch of
Cathy: jackals.
Cathy: You know what honey though? Oh, that’s so funny that you say that cuz I was just listening to the rewatchables about the omen and I’ve been thinking about jackals Lately, have you ever seen a jackal?
Todd: Uh, of course. I watch Channel 11 PBS all the time. So
Cathy: why did they have a jackal? Give birth to Damien.
Cathy: Like, what’s that connection?
Todd: Uh, sweetie, I’ve never seen that movie. Well,
Cathy: you know the Omen and Damien Omen 2. Never seen it. Anyway, I’m gonna put a pin in Jackal’s for a second. And I’m gonna say that the reason that I can relate to my kids, um, with this thing is when I was their age, my [00:18:00] parents and anybody else who messed up cultural references drove me crazy.
Cathy: Yeah. Like, I would be like, Get. You’re, you’re, I would, I want to swear but I’m not supposed to on the show. Get your act together and like know what you’re talking about before you say things. And now I occasionally say things wrong and I am annoyed at myself. Um. So they don’t really even have to get that annoyed at me because when I do say new direction I feel like an old person.
Todd: It’s because we are old, sweetie. But aren’t we? Compared to our kids, we are ancient. Yes, compared to them. But I feel pretty old. No, I mean, from our kids perspective, we can’t. Especially me. You’re more culturally in the know than I am, um, so I think they think of me as much older than you. Even though you, you actually are older than me.
Todd: I am. Here’s, here’s the thing about, um, cause what, what we’re talking about here in this discussion is our kids want to conform so that they are liked and they don’t lose their friends and we have this like evolutionary thing going on. [00:19:00] And it’s so easy for me, like, Oh, don’t worry about it. Just be yourself.
Todd: Like all the stupid things that other, that are, that we say to our kids. Right. And I have that. Yeah. I, I mean, I also make myself. Look like an idiot in front of my friends like on purpose, but it’s because I already know that they love me
Cathy: Well, and it’s controlled idiocy. Yes You’re not being a real like you’re not like jumping off the cliff right into like some new thing You’re being your personality right and kind of making them laugh.
Cathy: Yeah, which is already established Yeah, like that you’re not doing so imagine if you were well Todd, honestly, you, over the course of the last decade or so, you have commented on the fact that some people that you’ve been friends with your whole life or whatever, that sometimes when you show up a little more serious, they don’t like it.
Cathy: Yeah.
Todd: My college friends, they don’t like the, the Zen parenting version of Todd. So,
Cathy: but Zen parenting is hilarious. That’s what I think. Right. So the Zen parenting version of Todd, I think is [00:20:00] amazing. I
Todd: think, I think. I think you’re funny. I think you’re
Cathy: funny, sweetie. Um, but I think that you. You know, whenever we show up in a way that people don’t expect it gets kind of People get uncomfortable with it because they like a dynamic that that that
Todd: they know that they know they don’t like new stuff So I I think my whole point in this is I think us parents are great at giving advice Yeah, like we love giving advice when in when in fact I should probably Try harder to empathize with our kids who are just trying to fit in because so am I.
Todd: It’s so easy to be like, no, we don’t, I don’t need to fit in. One, I have more years of experience, but secondly, of course, I want to fit in. I want to fit in with you. I want to fit in with my kids. I want to fit in with my friends. I want to fit in with my job. We all want to fit
Cathy: in. I know, and why I really enjoyed digging into this and talking about this with my daughter, but also myself is after I read this, you know, that this girl wrote [00:21:00] this and then my daughter and I talked about it and then I went the next morning in my meditation area, I was kind of, sometimes I.
Cathy: Just kind of space, you know, I’ve talked about this before, but I have a lot of things written from the past decade on my walls. And sometimes I like, forget that I wrote something or like, Have you ever
Todd: seen that episode in, what is the, the Ron Howard movie with Russell Crowe? A Beautiful Mind. Beautiful Mind.
Todd: And he goes in that room and there’s all those things on the walls. That’s your meditation area, sweetie. And then wasn’t there a time when you, um, like you wrote stuff for years and then I think you took it all down. Did you like burn them? What’d you do with those? I burned them. Yeah. I never would have done that.
Todd: I would have been like, Hey man, I worked hard on these things.
Cathy: Well, it was time for them to go because it was a different phase. And when I say I burned them, everybody, that wasn’t a negative thing. I burned them in like, uh, to like give back. But
Todd: didn’t you like, at least Take a picture of
Cathy: each one you referred.
Cathy: Well, yeah, not each one. I took a picture of the wall and what it looked like. Yeah. But then it took me like five years to build it back up, build, built back up. You know, you gotta [00:22:00] like have phases in your life. Like there were things that I felt I had worked through. Mm-Hmm. . And I don’t like to use the word healed, but I was like, that’s not important to me anymore.
Cathy: Where I needed like a new. Kind of thing evolving. Sweet, it’s kind of
Todd: like the wall of pictures that I have in our basement.
Cathy: Todd was so excited to create a wall of pictures in our basement.
Todd: His boss My boss has like Hundreds, like 500 pictures on his walls. In his basement. So people just kind of go in the basement and they’re like, Oh my, look at all these memories and they’re funny and endearing.
Todd: And I had an idea.
Cathy: So Todd’s like, I’m going to do that. So he like, it was when we were working, one of our partners was Canva, Canvas or something. It was like, we had a partner at the time, so we were kind of utilizing their services and Todd made one picture. Like an 8×10 canvas of when we all went to Disney World.
Cathy: Yeah, we were dressed up for Halloween. We were dressed up as Stranger Things, you know, it was the five of us. And he put it on the wall, and to this day it’s still the only picture. [00:23:00] And it’s in the middle of the wall. Sweetie. What?
Todd: I’m working on it.
Cathy: Are you? Yes. Now, I will say, upstairs though, I make sure pictures are everywhere.
Cathy: You do a wonderful job. So, and I’m not saying that to like, as a pat on the back, but I’m saying it’s not as if we don’t have pictures everywhere. Yeah, in
Todd: the basement, just the one. Because that’s all we need if you think about it. It just
Cathy: looks funny and all of us are like,
Todd: there it is. So now that I’ve successfully distracted you from your line of thought, do you have any idea where you just were?
Todd: Yeah,
Cathy: so I was talking about my meditation area and I was saying that, you know, had these conversations and then the next morning I was looking, you know, I was kind of looking around at my quotes and I found this one on a, um, it’s on like a, I put them on post it notes and it’s a really, you can tell it’s an old post it note, like the sun has gotten to it.
Cathy: And I wrote, and I don’t think I wrote this. I think I got this from a book because it doesn’t really sound like me. I would love to take
Todd: Maybe you got it from your husband,
Cathy: sweetie. I don’t think so, hun, because this doesn’t sound like you either. I wrote, I had to check myself at the [00:24:00] door like a coat in order to relate to others.
Cathy: Often I had to pretend to be less than I was to be loved. And I don’t know, I don’t think I wrote it. Um, I Might have gotten it from Mark Nepo’s Book of Awakening. I tried to Google it to like give someone credit, but I couldn’t find it. So I, but what I loved about it is I was like, oh, how interesting I’ve been kind of dealing with the same thing, right?
Cathy: Or at some point I had been like where I was like, I didn’t feel like I could show up fully as myself. And I’ll say, you know, I think the difference is now is I still have that feeling, but I’m more able to call it out. Um, we had a situation, uh, it wasn’t a situation, but a couple of weeks ago, I was going to
Todd: say, I love how you like call things situations.
Todd: I’m like, uh oh. Somebody in trouble? No, he’s in trouble.
Cathy: A couple weeks ago, and this has happened a few times, but I’m just [00:25:00] better at saying things. Todd likes to, we, we play these trivia games and he’ll always be like, let’s all play against Kathy. Let’s have five people against Kathy. It’s a great rule.
Cathy: And I think he’s being in some ways sweet because he’s trying to give me a compliment. I think he’s also being funny. Um, but.
Todd: Or it’s just, I want to have a competitive
Cathy: match. Right. There’s all sorts of things. So I don’t think you’re being in any way mean. There’s a, there’s a compliment in there. But I often feel very alone then, and I feel like when I do get answers right, I don’t have a team, and people don’t want me to do
Todd: well.
Todd: Just high five yourself.
Cathy: That’s what I do. I just want, and then we kind of had to talk about it a couple weekends ago because there was people agreeing with you. Let me,
Todd: let me give, provide a little context. If we’re doing a pop culturing game that spans 80s, 90s, 2000s, 2010s, I put Kathy up against anybody.
Todd: And then the rest of us idiots in the family are like average at best. I’m below average. Our kids are probably above average. [00:26:00] But the bottom line is you have a whole spectrum of different pop culture residing in your head. Right. So the only way to have A fair battle is for all of us to go against you.
Cathy: Well, and there are definitely some I miss. Like, this is not like, I never miss. I don’t know a lot of the sports stuff. I’m not very good at history. I’m not very good at geography. It’s just this one piece, right? But it becomes this thing where then you kind of feel like you got to tone it down. And I’m saying you, I’m going to own it.
Cathy: Okay, I’m pushing it off like I’m a therapist. I feel like I need to tone it down or else I don’t belong. Because then people like to root against me, or they don’t want to be on my team, or there’s, it’s kind of a joke, or it’s too much pressure.
Todd: Sweetie, what’s the Marianne Williamson quote?
Cathy: Um, our deepest fear.
Cathy: Yes. Is not our darkness. I mean, I’m paraphrasing. It’s our light that we’re most afraid of. That’s you, babe. I know, and that’s true. [00:27:00] The, the, but I will add in there, I will say, yes, period, start a new paragraph. And I will say in those situations, though, that is what’s happening. I’m by myself and everyone’s like, yeah, let’s get her, like, I don’t have a team and people aren’t cheering for me.
Cathy: And I also need to be, and when I say cheering for me, meaning you don’t have people to like, this is such like, I got an idea. Okay. First of all, I want to say, this is such like a small thing in the scheme of life. What I was trying to. Comment on was, I have been able to say to everybody, I don’t like this.
Cathy: And I want to be able to show up and, and say, and be a part of a team and like, and, and be, be okay if I don’t get one right. And to also have people feel like I’m in a supportive environment, you know?
Todd: Next time we play, we’re gonna bring Monkey, and you and Monkey. Are going to be on the same
Cathy: team. That’s my stuffed animal.
Cathy: Monkey.
Todd: That’s your best friend. I think monkey, I know you love me and we’ve been married for 20 years or whatever, but honestly, [00:28:00] the love and endearment you have for monkey. Cause you’d know monkey a lot longer than me. Monkey knows everything. I don’t know. I don’t feel competitive against monkey, but if I did, I would feel really bad about myself because you.
Todd: Love. Monkey. How did you name it monkey? Because I
Cathy: got monkey when I was two. So that was about the extent. That’s as far as you went. I have a picture in my meditation area of me getting monkey.
Todd: Do you think like John and Jude’s named it monkey? Or did you name it monkey? Honestly,
Cathy: I, I don’t know. I have no idea, but it’s funny because I, there’s these, these are kind of jokes with my sister.
Cathy: Cause I had a big sister. And in the picture, I’m holding one of Monkey’s arms, and she’s holding one of Monkey’s arms, but it’s my birthday. You’re Monkey. And I’m pretty sure it’s my monkey, but he, he used to have a little red bow. And then at my fifth birthday party, I have a picture of somebody gave me a snake.
Cathy: Yeah. Like a, a stuffed snake. And in the picture, my sister has it. So I think sometimes, [00:29:00] sometimes like things that I got didn’t always
Todd: remain with me. Like an older sibling thing. Like, oh, that looks shiny and new. I’m going to grab that and I’m going to have it until I decide to give it
Cathy: to you. Correct.
Cathy: But, but good news. His monkey stayed with me. Thank goodness. And he now lives upstairs in Todd’s grandma’s rocking chair. And who’s
Todd: the other monkey that’s there?
Cathy: That was a monkey given to me by my parents I think when I was like 20 and it’s a girl monkey to be with monkey.
Todd: And what is What’s the girl monkey’s name?
Todd: I don’t know. Girl monkey. Wow. We should have like a, we should do a survey for Zen Parenting listeners, which we named Girl Monkey.
Cathy: Well, and she was really cute because they gave her to me and she was wearing my dress from kindergarten. Yeah. I just thought for my parents, that was pretty like that, that they know me that way.
Cathy: Can you
Todd: tell I am solely not into personal growth today? Like I just want to talk about monkey and Bon Jovi. And everything else, like. I know, I was
Cathy: asking Todd, he had another call, it was a work call. He’s like, I’m just
Todd: not on my game today. I’m just not on [00:30:00] my game, and I’d just so rather finish this podcast talking about monkeys.
Todd: I know, well
Cathy: monkey is lovely, and you know what? Let’s say this, for your children who have like transitional objects, that’s the clinical term, but basically like a stuffed animal that they like, that has meant a lot to them, or a pillow, or a blanket, or something like that. Don’t ever tell them they can’t have it, like, and I’m saying, you know, I was saying before, don’t be so absolutist.
Cathy: You’ve outgrown that phase. Yeah, like, I don’t see this that much because I’m not working with parents with young kids like I used to, but the whole idea that we need to outgrow something that we love, that brings us comfort, like JC and Mia, JC and her girlfriend are traveling this week and Mia brought her blanket, like she has a blankie, you know, and that’s, I think a lot of people do, a lot of, or they’ll have like, a leftover, um, like my, one of my girlfriends, this is kind of sad, but her, um, there was a fire in her house and she lost almost all lost almost everything, but [00:31:00] she had her doll, you know, which it got a little bit, but it didn’t, it doesn’t look great, but it’s important to her.
Cathy: You know what I mean? It’s like, there’s something about that connection to our childhood. And I think that we get through these phases where we’re like, People believe, or maybe our parents do, that we’re immature for having it, and then we become adults and we’re like, no, no, this is an important piece of my history.
Cathy: And like Todd said, I, Monkey knows. Yeah. Don’t ask Monkey. He
Todd: won’t tell you. Well, and it’s just another invitation to stay young, right? Yeah.
Cathy: I mean, honestly, like I, that’s there, I, I still personalize things that are not real. I, you know, bugs have lives and, well, bugs are real, but like Yeah, I was gonna say, hold on a second.
Cathy: Bugs are real. Sorry. That’s not a good one. But like, think inanimate objects, is that the right word that I tend to get? Do you know something that I did that one of our daughters did not like very much? Let’s hear it. [00:32:00] It’s, and some parents may think this is not nice, but my, um, I, one of my daughters kept stealing my brush out of my drawer and it drove me crazy.
Cathy: So I put a note on the back of the brush that said, quit taking me from my home. Yes. It made her so sad. She’s like, mom, that wasn’t because she’s like,
Todd: yeah, let’s just be clear. I love you. I love all three of my daughters, but the amount of care that they give to things like this. Inanimate objects. Right.
Todd: I know. Because you think they have feelings now. I know. I know. I know, like, everything has feelings, but I’m not sure the brush
Cathy: has feelings. I don’t think it did. I did it on purpose because I knew she would then put it back. Yeah. So it might have been a
Todd: little It’s really well done.
Cathy: Well, I don’t know.
Cathy: There’s people may be like, that’s not nice, but I was at, I was at my
Todd: wit’s end. But if you think about it, like, you know, Wilson from Volleyball. Yeah. Like, it made sense as a viewer. [00:33:00] That’s Tom Hanks’s character, what’s his name? Charlie? Charles? Uh, Chuck. Chuck, very good. I never think of Tom Hanks as a
Cathy: Chuck.
Cathy: Right? Well, that’s because he’s like alone So no one ever refers to
Todd: him. Yeah But it made sense that he was grieving the loss of this volleyball,
Cathy: right? Dude, the volleyball was his best friend Yeah, if he hadn’t, if Wilson hadn’t become what it became. He probably wouldn’t have been able to survive. He needed someone to have a conversation with, to keep himself talking, to work out the ideas in his head.
Cathy: He needed, we, connection is how we survive. And if you only have Are you going to play the saddest scene? Oh boy.
Todd: It’s the strings. Is it strings? Or is that a wind instrument? Sounds like a, um, [00:34:00] oboe?
Todd: Wilson! It just hits you in the gut.
Cathy: And then he says, I’m sorry, Wilson.
Todd: I’m sorry, Wilson! So as I’m making fun of my daughter for protecting a brush There’s not a big leap. Like we can love inanimate, inanimate objects. We can’t, and,
Cathy: and I think it is, again, I wouldn’t recommend other parents putting, you know, saying the brush, well the brush wasn’t like mad, it just said, can you put me back?
Cathy: Like, can you put me back in my
Todd: home? See, that’s what we’re going to name this podcast. The brush wasn’t mad. Podcast number 754. It just
Cathy: said put me back in my home. I think it, it, if we don’t use it to be manipulative, um, it
Todd: can So you’re trying to manipulate her behavior to return that thing. I know,
Cathy: I’m feeling a little uneasy.
Cathy: But if we are I think it’s a sign of [00:35:00] our compassion, right? Like we don’t, there are things that are symbolic. There are things that we have made alive, like monkey, you know, like the, um, I’m very aware everybody, by the way, the monkey is a stuffed animal. I’m not like that clueless, but it’s become symbolic of my childhood and, and it’s something that contains everything I’ve ever
Todd: been.
Todd: What happened when your college girlfriends were messing
Cathy: with it? I don’t want to talk about it. They know. They know how angry I was. They stole. I
Todd: just want all Kathy’s girlfriends to feel shameless. If you’re listening, feel
Cathy: shame. They stole him and they also stole one of, is stole the right word? They steal?
Cathy: They stole. They took him. Stealed
Todd: is definitely not right. Stole might be right.
Cathy: And they like kidnapped him and it was, and then this other thing that I had in my room that was meaningful to me and they, they were like pretending it was, they were holding it for ransom. I did not find it funny. Not funny guys.
Todd: It was not funny to me. What was the other thing?
Cathy: Um, it was this little, [00:36:00] he was, um, a, um, ceramic, not ceramic. What is it when you make something out of paper? It was like a paper mache guy. Sounds awesome. Yeah. And they did. I can’t talk about it. I can’t talk about it because it’s not appropriate for the show.
Cathy: They did some
Todd: other things. Rated X humor is coming into play in the Applebee house, Des Moines, Iowa.
Cathy: Just some things. They know who they are.
Todd: Yes. We know what you did. It was, it was the thing we always say to the girls.
Cathy: Well, that’s, that’s also from my girlfriends. What’s that? Cause there was this thing that we had at our sorority house and it was called orchids and onions.
Cathy: And you would put things in there to like praise people, but you would also put things in there that might be like, Hey, quit taking my clothes out of the dryer. But it was kind of anonymous. You know what I mean? So people would be like, quit moving my clothes or whatever. My girlfriend put one in, put more than one, but this is the one that I remember.
Cathy: Shibo went in and said, [00:37:00] I know, I know who you are.
Cathy: I know who you
Todd: are and what
Cathy: you did.
Cathy: He and my sorority was like, oh shit. Who is it?
Todd: Who is it? What did they do? It’s
Cathy: Laugh about that with my daughters, we’ll be like, I know who you are and what you did. And it was nothing by the way, just making
Todd: stuff up. I love it.
Cathy: Oh God. Good times. All right. That was like a nice little walk down memory lane.
Cathy: Did we finish this conversation?
Todd: Do you think? No, we’re only 37 minutes in. So let’s say,
Cathy: Oh really? Yeah. Oh my gosh. You, this is what’s going on with you. You just want to be done. You don’t feel like talking.
Todd: Unless it’s about movies or making you laugh really hard. That made me
Cathy: cry. That was such, uh, my friends are so [00:38:00] funny.
Todd: Yeah. I just want to honor. I have wonderful college friends too, but you are in a text chain with how many girls are in that text, give or take 10. Yeah.
Cathy: Something like that. I, I haven’t counted, but
Todd: I, and it’s just, um, I I’m envious. I’m not jealous. I just honor. You know, half your girlfriends came in for the conference, half your girlfriends come in for your birthday.
Todd: Mm hmm. You know, you guys have each other’s backs. Yeah. Big time. And there was friendships that were cultivated in Des Moines, Iowa in 1989 or whenever it was you got there. And you know, the friendships were life, man. I know.
Cathy: And, and that’s the thing is not only are they really good people, but they’re so funny.
Cathy: And I, so everybody who is listening, I bet you can relate to this. It’s like We had a thing that we always talked about with my girlfriends. We’d call it having the humor. Like these, this person has the humor, like capital T, um, T H E, the humor.
Todd: Cause H starts, humor starts with H.
Cathy: Right. But we wouldn’t be like, Hey, this person has good humor.
Cathy: We’d be like the humor, [00:39:00] which is the humor is like a kind of unique, like they understand the jokes or they understand the, and the jokes are not like at anyone’s expense. They’re just kind of like.
Todd: I think the papier mâché thing was at your expense. I think stealing a monkey was at your expense. I know who you are and what you did.
Todd: That’s what you should have written on your thing. I know. About monkey.
Cathy: I know. I know. Um, but anyway, they, they’re very loving toward him now. Yeah. I mean, not that they see him a great deal, but occasionally. You’re not
Todd: going to let that monkey in your, in their sights. Well,
Cathy: sometimes historically, I haven’t done this probably in last year, but sometimes I take a picture of him and just put it on the text chain.
Cathy: Everyone’s like, Oh, there he is. Because anyone who had to live with me knows about monkeys, knows that he comes along for the ride anyway. You know what’s weird, Todd? Hmm? If someone were to ask me my favorite animal, I don’t know if I’d say monkey. Well, even though monkey is my favorite stuffed animal,
Todd: right?
Todd: It makes sense because, well first of all the, I didn’t [00:40:00] know we’re gonna talk about monkeys today, but I’m so glad you love monkeys. Now, let’s be clear. I do love, there’s so many different breeds of monkeys and it’s easy for me to say I love monkeys. ’cause I love gorillas. ’cause you love gorillas. are just so majestic.
Todd: I love gorillas. It’s dominating my YouTube feed right now. Um, chimpanzees, uh, I just watched Chimp Empire on Netflix. So great. But there’s all these different types of monkeys and a lot of them are just kind of running around annoying people. Some of
Cathy: them are really cute and furry. Some of the monkeys that I’ve seen, like more exotic monkeys, I’m like, look at that sweet monkey.
Cathy: And I, so Todd in his, YouTube. Okay. He’s got a lot of monkeys. A lot of gorillas. I have a lot of
Todd: capybaras. Yeah. And, and just for those of us who don’t know what a capybara is. You should
Cathy: look up the capybara song. Oh, really? Yeah. There’s a capybara song. Everybody. Does anyone else have a lot of capybaras on their [00:41:00] newsfeed?
Cathy: I don’t know if it happened because I was like, my daughters sometimes send me Capy Barra stuff.
Todd: What are kapi bars, sweetie? They’re
Cathy: very large rodents. They, they’re in the rodent. Um. Category and they’re adorable or at least they look adorable to me. They’re
Todd: probably ferocious. They’re not
Cathy: showing you those No, they’re not like some people, you know, depend. I don’t know. Where do capybaras live? Look that up because you have a Des Moines.
Todd: They do not
Cathy: I have no idea Um, but people like pet them and love them and the baby cap of capybaras are super cute But they just show up in my newsfeed now because my girls have sent me funny capybara things I think it was Mia who like capybaras first. I think we have to give her
Todd: credit but Should we tell our listeners, um, our, our, our behaviors as we’re going to sleep?
Todd: Sure. Lately, uh, Kathy likes, uh, I want to say threads, Instagram, Reels. [00:42:00] Reels, yeah. And then sometimes you switch over to TikTok. So, uh, how would you best describe your feed?
Cathy: Um, well, it’s always changing. Follow. Okay. So on Instagram, I follow a ton of things, but my reels don’t seem to match up to that. I don’t know.
Cathy: Again, people explain the difference between a algorithm with my reels. I don’t, I don’t understand, but on TikTok, I only follow like four people. So the, the feed that I get is very random. Like I have no idea what’s going to show up. And so it’s different every day, but I tend to get a lot of the cats, the cats talking to each other, which Tom and I initially thought were pretty funny, which now, you know.
Cathy: The cats have been around for a while. We like the, um, we like the surprise, surprise lady, but she hasn’t been around for a while. . Um, and then here’s the cats.[00:43:00]
Cathy: It’s that last meow that makes it so funny.
Todd: And usually it’s something like, it’s like. We, we project our own stories onto these two cats. And am I the one that does most of the talking or do we sometimes
Cathy: switch roles? Yes, so it usually is like it says boyfriend or husband and it’ll be like, I’m going to the store.
Cathy: Do you want something? And then the other cat will be like, no. And then they’ll be like, are you sure? And then the other cat will be like, no. Donuts. Yeah. Like, it’s dumb. It’s not, I mean, there’s no way we could make
Todd: it funny. But I feel like the other cat is always saying, you should know. You should know who I am.
Todd: Exactly. Who, what I like at the grocery
Cathy: store. They tend to genderize them. Like the first cat is more like the, the boy, I’m being heteronormative here, but it’s the male. And then the other cat tends to have like more of a female role. And it’s not always positive. Like, I can’t be like, every single one is funny.
Cathy: No. Um, so what else is in your feed? Sometimes it feeds into stereotypes, if you know what I mean. What else is in your feed? Um, Capybara’s. Um, I have a whole lot of, um, the [00:44:00] interrogations which
Todd: you were making. Oh my gosh. So we need to pause there. We need to hold it. We gotta, we gotta do this. Are you gonna back it up?
Todd: So we’re getting ready to go out on Saturday. We went to your sister’s house. Played fun games. And I’m like, what are you, what are you watching on your YouTube thing? Like, cause I didn’t have my glasses on. And why don’t you just tell the listeners what was occupying your time on Saturday?
Cathy: Well, I listen more than I actually am like totally clued in, but I have to be pay somewhat attention because you have to go to the next reel.
Cathy: So on TikTok, so, okay. So a lot of things that. that I do tend to stop on because your algorithm tends to focus on what you stopped and spent the most time on. So obviously everybody here could guess I’m stopping on a lot of psychology stuff, self help stuff, um, things that are around human behavior, right?
Cathy: And so it also, I like true crime. So you put that on top of that with human behavior. [00:45:00] And I get this, I get a lot of interrogations, which are real life interrogations of people. Because they got the camera in there. Correct. Who have committed a crime and you see the police officers or detectives interrogating these people and until they get them to admit what they did.
Cathy: And these aren’t interrogations like where they’re like yelling at them. These aren’t inappropriate interrogations. They’re playing good cop, bad cop. Correct. These aren’t, these aren’t things like where they’re harming people. They’re, what they’re doing is they’re There’s a whole technique, the way to, to get people to admit to what they did.
Cathy: And it’s a very therapeutic technique. They call, I think they call it the read technique. Um, detectives listening would probably know better than I, but there’s this whole like way that you move your body and the good cop, bad cop thing and the way you ask questions. And you also have to ask them in such a way where.
Cathy: You’re trying to get so as soon as the person like does admit to what they did, because again, the interrogations are showing [00:46:00] us are obviously where people have admitted to it. And then once the people have admitted to it, they have to make sure that they get all the evidence they need for trial. So, for example, they’ll say things to them like, wow, you know, if the person murdered someone, they’ll be like, wow.
Cathy: You must have been thinking about that for a while because that it was such like a, you know, a difficult day and all these things happen. So you must have been like, really thinking about that for a while. And then the person will be like, yeah, I was thinking about it since last week or whatever. And so right there you have premeditation.
Cathy: Yeah. So, and then they have them act it out because they need to be able to show that the evidence is connected to how they really did it. And so there’s all these things that I find fascinating. Um, and that I think Todd was a little. I just find it fascinating
Todd: how, um, I just, I’m fascinated by your brain, sweetie.
Todd: Yeah. That’s the nicest way I can say it. Oh, thanks, honey. Um, and I just think that that’s just a really interesting thing to decide to [00:47:00] watch.
Cathy: Yeah, I, I, I, and this, you know, it won’t surprise you, I am very, um, intrigued is not enough of a strong word. I am somewhat obsessed with human behavior and not just positive human behavior.
Cathy: I’m obsessed why, you know, we’ve talked a lot before. I’m very, um, in the weeds around research when it comes to cults and also, um, human behavior when it comes to, um, breaking the law or I will say violence, you know, it’s not just breaking the law. Um, and I just am interested how people get there because I think that you have to, when you’re working with human beings, you have to understand the shadow and the light.
Cathy: I really love. Um, self help and self awareness and mindfulness. That’s my like, that’s where I really root myself. But you can’t look away from the things that human beings can do because. As Maya Angelou said, um, I’m like setting it up, but I’m not going to do the quote right. As Maya [00:48:00] Angelou said, anything of a human is of me.
Cathy: Yeah, something like that. I think that’s what, basically, if a human being can do this, then any of us can get involved in these things that are negative or scary, and it’s not about being afraid of it. It’s about shining a light on it and not making it part of, you know, Carl Jung, Shadow Selves. If we talk about it, then we don’t have to worry about it.
Cathy: Cool. Right? Doesn’t become an anxiety.
Todd: I decided that this is what we should name this show. Okay. Can’t wait. Nothing.
Cathy: What does that mean? The show is about nothing. Well, it’s not about nothing. No, it’s about nothing.
Todd: Well, maybe in philosophy, but even nothing is something. Mr. Dalrymple,
Cathy: your niece is
Todd: on the phone.
Todd: I’ll call back. Uh, D
Cathy: A L R I M P E L. You know what we’re gonna call it? What are we gonna call it? Even nothing is
Todd: something. There we go. Even nothing is something. Um, yes. Uh, I don’t, I take full [00:49:00] responsibility for the train going off the tracks. It was never on the track. It wasn’t maybe a little bit in the beginning, but I’m just like,
Cathy: we started talking about Bon Jovi and
Todd: Capybara.
Todd: So the longer I do this show, um, I just kinda, I. I’m so grateful to anybody who chooses to listen to it. Yeah. Thank you. And, uh, at the same time, I just want to enjoy my company with you as we’re recording. And today I wanted to talk about capybaras and Well,
Cathy: I kind of think those things go hand in hand.
Cathy: Do you? Yeah. I think that if we are being inauthentic and trying to force a conversation about something, it’s not a good show. Yeah. So you and I just kind of wanted to talk about other things. I think it started when you started playing bad medicine, or maybe New edition.
Todd: You got to cool it now. Um, so yes, I will take, and if somebody’s like, wow, I really want to get some personal growth work in today.
Todd: We will. Listen to one of the other 754
Cathy: podcasts we did. We’ve 14 years guys, every Tuesday, there’s been [00:50:00] something. It’s been something. Yeah.
Todd: Um, so more to come. And we didn’t get to whatever, half of what we were going to talk about, and that’s fine too. That’s fine.
Cathy: And you know what? Um, I actually just got an email, you did too, it came to both of us, that someone was saying they, they want to join Team Zen.
Cathy: Oh yeah. They were kind of unsure or whatever. Um, so Todd and I are doing a class, um, And it is, what, next Monday?
Todd: Oh yeah. What’s the date? I forgot about that. Monday, March 18th. My brother’s birthday.
Cathy: Okay. Monday, March 18th. Todd and I are doing a talk. I would call it. It’s not really a class. It’s not like you have to, you know, bring your pencil or anything.
Cathy: You can. Um, but it’s a Zoom talk about romance and what romance really is and what intimacy really feels like. I think we will use probably clips from movies and ideas from pop culture, not necessarily to say do this. But under, so we understand why we got to a place where we think romance looks a certain way and also how to bring a real true romance into your relationship because it’s going to look different depending on who you are.
Cathy: Oh, I got some
Todd: things to share, sweetie. We both do. I got a lot to share.
Cathy: It’s going to be [00:51:00] interesting. So we are offering it actually to Men Living, which is Todd’s, the organization that he founded and is the, um, what are you? Executive Director. And then we also decided to open it up to Team Zen. Yeah. So if you are interested in this.
Cathy: Um, taking, listening to this talk, if you’re a member of MenLiving, great, um, if you’re on Team Zen, great, but if you just want to do the talk, join Team Zen for the month of March. And you can do this talk, plus all of our Zen Talks, plus all of the podcasts, plus all of our content, so jump in for Team Zen for this month.
Cathy: And you’ll get the talk plus everything else, and then we hope you stay. But if you don’t want to stay after this
Todd: month, whatever. If you join the team, you will get the complete parenting content collection plus live talks, all in one place, all the micro communities, everything else. Two other quick announcements.
Todd: We’re going to do a March Madness pool. I haven’t figured out how I’m going to do it yet, but, uh, we’ll post it on Facebook something. It’s for women’s basketball. For women’s. Yeah. Because, you know, guys, there’s a lot more people out there doing the men’s pools, but [00:52:00] I’m actually more intrigued. South Carolina is undefeated.
Todd: Uh, the Hawkeyes, I was gonna say, I’m getting there, I know, but the South Carolina is number one in the country. I got it. Uh, the Hawkeyes just beat Ohio State, number two, Ohio State, the number two team in the country. And Caitlin Clark just broke pistol Pete Maravich’s record. So
Cathy: Kaitlyn Clarke broke the record for any male or female basketball player in college.
Cathy: Total points. Yeah, total points. Yeah. So she already surpassed, she broke the record a couple weeks ago in women’s basketball and then yesterday broke the record. She just breaks records left and right. She’s kind of amazing. She’s kind of amazing. Um, and it’s really fun to have a kid there
Todd: right now. Yes.
Todd: She just gave up her final year of eligibility. She’s going to the WNBA, uh, next year. So, um, so yeah, join us in the March Madness Pool. More details to come. And then I am part of a Men Living Weekend in Callaway, Virginia at the end of [00:53:00] April. If there’s any guys on here that want to connect with yourself, connect with the outdoors, connect with each other, do some personal growth work, have some fun.
Todd: Um, the link to that weekend will be in these
Cathy: show notes. So underneath, if you scroll down, you can link to joining Team Zen, Men Living, blah, blah, blah.
Todd: Even nothing is something sweetie, even nothing is something, uh, keep trucking everybody.
Round two. Change a little bit. And change a little bit. Pretty pleasant.
