Cathy and Todd discuss the power of words and how their significance is subjective to the person using them. They focus on the necessity of being seen, emphasizing how the quality of our partnerships and parenting is influenced by our ability to truly see others. The discuss what it means to have a healthy relationship and share why anecdotal evidence may not always be conclusive.

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Time Stamps

(00:02:43) Tournament of curious

(00:08:12) The Need to Be Seen Blog

(00:026:14) See what I’m doing *

(00:28:57) Kids rolling eyes*

(00:31:25) Conference & Team Zen

(00:33:05) The nuance of words… Healthy

(00:53:15) The nuance of words… Abuse

(01:04:35) The nuance of words… Empathy & Sympathy

(01:05:59) The nuance of words… Celebration of life

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What Does It Mean to Be Seen

This episode of the Zen Parenting Radio podcast delves into various aspects of life, parenting, relationships, and societal norms. In this article, we will explore some of the most salient points from the podcast episode, focusing on the hosts’ reflections on words and their meanings, relationship dynamics, societal expectations, the nuanced nature of abuse, and the interconnectedness of life and death.

Todd and Cathy kick off their discussion by highlighting the subjective nature of words and their meanings. They use examples like “healthy,” “abuse,” and “self-care” to illustrate how different individuals may interpret these terms differently. The hosts emphasize the importance of understanding the definitions people attach to words, particularly in the realm of psychology. This sets the stage for a broader exploration of subjective experiences and perceptions.

The hosts seamlessly weave personal anecdotes into their discussions, bringing a relatable and human touch to the topics. One such story involves Todd’s reflection on a pickleball encounter, where a fellow player apologizes for not participating due to a health issue. Cathy adds insights about competitive and people-pleasing tendencies, connecting the narrative to the theme of redefining words. This narrative approach invites listeners to reflect on their own experiences and consider alternative perspectives on familiar concepts.

The podcast then takes a turn towards societal expectations and parenting challenges. Todd reads a poignant blog post by his friend Jim Herbert, addressing the sacrifices and judgments faced by mothers. The hosts discuss their own experiences, shedding light on the disparities in societal perceptions of super moms and super dads. They emphasize the need for empathy and understanding, promoting a more inclusive and supportive approach to parenting.

A heartfelt reflection on a letter from Jim to his wife leads to a discussion on the societal pressures women face. The hosts connect this to a scene from the show “Mad About You,” highlighting the importance of seeing and appreciating each other in relationships. The conversation shifts to the significance of recognizing and acknowledging the meaningful actions of a partner, focusing on understanding rather than problem-solving.

Cathy and Todd delve into the concept of a healthy relationship, sharing personal scenarios and emphasizing the importance of commitment and support. They challenge the idea of a universal definition of a healthy relationship, advocating for individuals to determine what it means for them. The hosts also touch on love languages, showcasing the complexity of relationship dynamics and the need for mutual understanding and appreciation.

Cathy shares her perspective on not conforming to societal norms and selectively engaging in activities that align with her values. The hosts discuss the definition of health, including physical, mental, and social well-being. They acknowledge the constant challenge of achieving balance in these areas and share personal experiences, promoting a more holistic approach to well-being.

The hosts engage in a thoughtful discussion about the nuanced nature of abuse. Todd expresses dissatisfaction with clinical definitions, highlighting the subjective nature of abuse. The conversation expands to include gender perspectives and related topics like addiction and sympathy versus empathy. The hosts emphasize the importance of considering individual tolerance levels and personal history when defining abuse.

In the final segment, Cathy and Todd reflect on the concept of life and death, emphasizing the idea that people are never truly gone as they live on through descendants. They explore the interconnectedness of family history and choices that shape the present. The hosts also touch on the complexities of life paths and choices, promoting the notion that life tends to work out as it should.

Zen Parenting Radio provides a rich tapestry of insights into various facets of life, parenting, and relationships. Through thoughtful discussions, personal anecdotes, and reflections on societal norms, Todd and Cathy Adams invite listeners to reconsider their perspectives on familiar concepts. From the nuanced nature of words to the complexities of abuse and the interconnectedness of life and death, the hosts encourage a more empathetic and understanding approach to the human experience.


ZPR#745 – What Does it Mean to be Seen Full Episode Transcript – DOWNLOAD


[00:00:05] Todd: All right, here we go. Okay,

[00:00:09] Cathy: so I want to talk about words today, how they have different meanings depending on who you are. And sometimes even what your relationship is.

[00:00:18] Todd: Why don’t you float one or two of the words that we’re gonna talk about so people have an idea of what this means. Okay. Healthy.

[00:00:24] Cathy: Healthy. Okay. Um, I think you had a big conversation this weekend with a bunch of people about what the word abuse means. We had a happy one. We had a hard time with that one. I know. Um, understandably. Right. Um, even the word self-care is, means something different. So I just wanna like, talk about, um, I just wanna talk about, don’t you?

[00:00:42] Todd: Yeah. Let’s, let’s jump in. Here we go.

[00:00:50] Todd: Do, do, do, do do. Here we go. This is Todd, Mrs. Kathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 745. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto. Which is the best predictor of a child’s well being is a parent’s self understanding.

[00:01:07] Todd: On today’s show, words? Words. What do they mean? How subjective are they? Is there, is there actual definitions for these words? I think even, you know, Webster’s has one definition and whoever’s Webster’s competitor probably has a different definition. Well, and that’s

[00:01:21] Cathy: kind of the thing is I think something in the field of psychology that is very common is people redefining words.

[00:01:27] Cathy: You know, like Brene Brown does that all the time in her research, like, you know, and she’s not the only one. Like, you kind of read like, Oh, actually what this means is this. And I really kind of want to process with you. It’s not me talking at you about this, but I really want to, cause I don’t have final answers, but I want to kind of open people’s minds to sometimes we get really stuck.

[00:01:46] Cathy: in what this word means, or we use a word and kind of throw it on ourselves or our partner, our kids, and we don’t even know what we’re talking about. We don’t know how to define it. So you were going to talk something like a term in a bad

[00:01:59] Todd: thing. Uh, yeah, [00:02:00] well, just a few things. So if somebody’s like, wow, I want to hear Todd and Kathy talk about these words.

[00:02:05] Todd: I timestamped this podcast so you very easily can fast forward to when we start talking about it because it will show up in the show notes. In the meantime, um, I wanted to do two quick things. One is I want to read a little bit of a blog that my friend wrote that I think You will like, sweetie. Okay. Yes.

[00:02:24] Todd: Who’s your friend? Uh, his name is Jim Herbert. Okay. And, uh, he’s good. Oh, I read it. Which one?

[00:02:29] Cathy: Oh, well, I read the one that He writes a lot. Okay. So it might be The one where he recognized what his wife did.

[00:02:35] Todd: That’s exactly the part I wanted to read. Oh, I sent that to you, didn’t I?

[00:02:38] Cathy: Oh, you still should read it

[00:02:40] Todd: for other people.

[00:02:40] Todd: I’m not going to read the whole thing because it’s long, but I’m going to read a part of it. But first, I want to say something to my friend. I think his name is Scott. I just met him at pickleball. And this would be not the tournament of bad, sweetie. This would be the tournament of curious. OK, where is my tournament?

[00:02:55] Todd: So what is what

[00:02:56] Cathy: is the tournament of bad? Tournament of bad. Tournament

[00:02:59] Todd: of bad. We need a tournament of curious. So I was pickleball with this guy I just met this morning. OK. And then he had to pull out. He’s like, I can’t play. I don’t know, he hurt his foot, whatever. And then as I was leaving, he’s like, I’m really, really sorry that I couldn’t play with you.

[00:03:16] Todd: And like, it was no inconvenience to me. Cause somebody just, somebody just filed right in. He’s like, I have a pacemaker and my body tells me when it’s getting too high or so I can’t play when that happens or something like that. What, what was interesting to me, I’m like, dude, you’re, you’re listening to your body and your body is saying your heart is working too hard.

[00:03:40] Todd: So just take a step back. And I just thought it was, he felt so bad for making me wait or, or for, for not playing. And I just thought that was like, why is this guy? So apologetic for listening to his body. Do you really

[00:03:56] Cathy: have that question being married to me? Like, he’s, he [00:04:00] has people pleasing stuff.

[00:04:01] Todd: Yes, but this is his heart that’s

[00:04:05] Cathy: I know.

[00:04:06] Cathy: So, I think for you, there’s a clarity because you are you. And you’re like, you just do what’s good for you. Like, people, this is kind of what we’re talking about with words, right? But I think the, the thing that you don’t understand is he might be super competitive. So, he feels like, oh my god, I just left a teammate in the lurch and that’s what you don’t

[00:04:26] Todd: do.

[00:04:26] Todd: He just met about a silly pick up

[00:04:28] Cathy: game. Right. But, again, we are, um, not talking

[00:04:33] Todd: about. My nose is running, sweetie. I

[00:04:35] Cathy: know. If

[00:04:36] Todd: we were not gonna blow my nose on, on, um On the podcast. That’d be bad. If we weren’t

[00:04:42] Cathy: on YouTube, I wouldn’t even laugh about it, but it’s just because sometimes people watch us and, you know, but we are human people.

[00:04:48] Cathy: Um, we are human people. We’re human people. So I was just going to say, he’s probably super competitive and doesn’t want to leave a teammate. Yeah. Even if he just met you, it’s a team, right? He’s like, you know, I just totally left him. Number two, he probably cares a lot about not disappointing others. It could be part of his work ethic.

[00:05:05] Cathy: It could be part of his

[00:05:06] Todd: home life. There’s a part of me that loves this guy. I just thought it was like, this is his heart beating and his body tells him when to sit down. All he had to do is like, dude, I got a pacemaker. You know, I’ll catch you next time. But to the depth where he was apologizing to this stranger that he just met, I thought was very interesting.

[00:05:23] Todd: Well,

[00:05:23] Cathy: you know, you’re right. I mean, I guess there is an extreme here, but the reason why I’m like. I can totally relate is I was just telling you, you know, I went to yoga this morning really early and I just happened to, long story, but the, my right hip has kind of got

[00:05:37] Todd: pulled out. So

[00:05:40] Cathy: I have been kind of taking care of it over the, not very well though, because I also sat in a car yesterday for six hours, but anyway.

[00:05:48] Cathy: I’m thoughtful about that. I don’t want to continue to re injure it. And the funny thing about yoga is it’s very healing, but if you don’t listen to your body, you can injure yourself. You have to be really thoughtful [00:06:00] about that fine line. Right. And. In class today, we were just doing all these twists that were like the worst thing for my hip.

[00:06:07] Cathy: And I had to leave early because of that. I guess I could have just laid on my back and stayed there, but I’m like, you know, it’s, I’m going to go. And I always feel bad for the teacher. Now, I used to be a yoga teacher. And people used to leave my class because of whatever work or they were done or whatever and I never got mad.

[00:06:26] Cathy: It’s not about getting mad, it’s just about you want to give respect to the person you’re Sure. You know, I don’t, I, it’s like I want to go up and explain to her, um, here’s what’s going on. Yeah. So she understands why. And part of it is my own ego, right? I don’t leave

[00:06:40] Todd: yoga classes. I know. And I, and there’s a part of me for sure that aligns with not leaving things early, showing up on time, being very Rule follower, you know, cause he was about to jump in and play and then he pulled out before we started.

[00:06:53] Cathy: Totally. Rule follower. That probably aligns more to you than people pleasing. Yeah.

[00:06:57] Todd: Cause you’re a rule follower. Yeah. And I’m also a people pleaser, but probably not as much as a rule follower. Yeah. Maybe I am. Who knows? Maybe.

[00:07:05] Cathy: And that’s what we’re talking about is these words. Like I

[00:07:08] Todd: think. Let’s add that to the list.

[00:07:09] Todd: Rule follower versus

[00:07:11] Cathy: people pleaser. Are they, like, I think sometimes we can make ourselves feel better by attaching to a word that is more socially acceptable because you don’t want to be known as a people pleaser so you’re like, I’m a rule follower. And really, are you, are your actions The same. Yeah.

[00:07:33] Cathy: And are is one more feminine and is

[00:07:37] Todd: one more. Rule follower is definitely more masculine. People pleaser is probably more feminine. Yeah, and

[00:07:41] Cathy: people pleaser sounds so self defeating and self disempowering. Yeah, it’s so disempowering and rule follower is like no. Um, you know, yeah. So I mean, we just kind of, that’s a perfect example.

[00:07:53] Cathy: So I’m sending love to your friend who

[00:07:55] Todd: Yeah. Well, and he seemed like a sweet guy. And then he’s like, Oh, I really like watching you play. And I’m [00:08:00] like, okay, great. Thanks. It was just a weird compliment.

[00:08:03] Cathy: Well, he’s saying you’re good,

[00:08:05] Todd: right? Yeah. But we’re all about the same level. I’m not, I’m no better, no worse than the average, but anyways, it was just, he was not a nice guy.

[00:08:13] Todd: Yeah. And hopefully I’ll see him next time I play pickleball. Yeah. So my friend Jim Herbert. Uh, took a walk to, we took a walk together a few weeks ago and we started talking about motherly responsibilities, fatherly responsibility. He’s an older dad. He had his baby when he was 50. His wife, I think was like 32 or something like that.

[00:08:31] Todd: Okay. I don’t know. So they have, there’s quite a range, but that has nothing to do with the story. He, he shared with me a blog ’cause also he’s also a writer. And I’m just gonna read, uh, a few parts of it and then, because I think it’s something most moms would love to hear from. Uh, for most dads. Yeah.

[00:08:49] Todd: Nothing has taught me more about motherhood in the last six weeks than watching my wife, Christiana, navigate her way through both the blissful and the agonizing moments of her own motherhood journey. You see, I get to be super dad in the eyes of the world. It’s really not that difficult to be crowned super dad and handed a cape.

[00:09:08] Todd: All it takes is to make sure you change your pair of diapers, prepare some meals, and handle bedtime. Oh, and also make sure you’re seen in public alone with your child or children doing things like shopping or playing in the park. That earns you super dad’s bonus points. Historically, the bar has been set pretty low for dads to be considered super.

[00:09:28] Todd: Pause. Yeah, correct. Totally agree. Yeah. Right? And I shared with him. What, what led him to share this with me is because I told him the story about when you went to Mexico when our kids were little for the first time, it was your first break in like 18 months or whatever it was. And I took both girls, cause we only had two at the time to a birthday party.

[00:09:47] Todd: And it was as if I was. Superhuman.

[00:09:51] Cathy: I like, oh my

[00:09:52] Todd: gosh, . So moving on to Jim’s blog, being Supermom on the other hand. Well, from what I’ve learned to be [00:10:00] to just to be considered an adequate mother, a woman needs to martyr her own personal needs on the altar of life in order to avoid getting a societal side eye from the general public, or even her friends and her own family.

[00:10:12] Todd: She needs to put. Her own physical and emotional pain after childbirth on the back burner while she sacrifices any semblance of regular sleep for months or even years. Many moms, like Christiana, have a deep calling to breastfeed. Some have success on that path and some do not. That journey alone can bring a tremendous amount of judgment from others.

[00:10:32] Todd: Or from self based on its success or failure. If a woman is able to breastfeed and she chooses to continue that process beyond the first few months, then she gets to drag a breast pump through the outlet mall while shopping for deals during her precious few hours of alone time she gets each week. If she chooses to return to work way too soon just to save her job when her 90 days of unpaid maternity leave expire.

[00:10:54] Todd: She then gets to try to pump while at work at the inconvenience of her co workers and inconveniences in quotes and managers who have to do her job for her while she locks herself in a dingy office bathroom or storage area twice per night. Um, so pause there. Any thoughts, sweetie? No,

[00:11:14] Cathy: I mean, I, that is the reality and I remember, um, cause I’ve pumped so many times in like a stall, like a bathroom stall, which is not super clean, you know, and you have to be so thoughtful cause you’re pumping milk.

[00:11:26] Cathy: Um, and I remember the first time I went to a bathroom where there was a room to pump. Um, and they’re not everywhere. They’re like in random, like a random Nordstrom’s or you go to like somewhere in Disney world or something, you know, like, Oh my gosh, something’s built. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. to pump. And I remember feeling, you know, like he’s saying very seen, like, and it seems inconceivable that nobody when building places like that are thinking about us, you know, but of course they aren’t because I don’t know if, um, I don’t know if we were [00:12:00] taken into consideration.

[00:12:01] Cathy: I, I like want to like be very gender specific and be like person who designed it probably wasn’t a pumping person.

[00:12:11] Todd: Men, we’re deciding. Let’s just say it. Just say that. So, uh, so in closing, so what I’d like to say to you this year on Mother’s Day, Christiana, is simply this. I see you. I see you trying and succeeding at being the best mother you can possibly be and this is more than enough.

[00:12:26] Todd: I may not always do a good job of making you feel that you’re enough, and I’m painfully aware that I too have subtly judged you at times for not being good enough. But I pledge to do my best to end that pattern now. I pledge to see you as the amazing mother you deserve to be seen as by me and everyone else.

[00:12:43] Todd: I see you playing in the grass and teaching Emma how the magnolia blossoms are the first to fall each spring. I see you getting your workouts interrupted or altogether abandoned because of the pitter patter of little feet. I see you using your own body as shade for Emma from the hot summer sun. I see you reading books with Emma on your lap, in chairs, on the couch, and sometimes even on the floor.

[00:13:05] Todd: I see you teaching her about how much fun and powerful the lake water can be. I see you offering horsey rides even when your own back is hurting. So he goes on to mention all these millions of things that he sees his wife doing. And I just thought it was a beautiful Beautiful thing. And I think that, um, I would love to, you know, I’m kind of envious that, that Jim has had when he wrote this, the ability to see this and empathize with it in a way that I think I also see, but I don’t do a good job as I should of communicating it to you,

[00:13:38] Cathy: sweetie.

[00:13:39] Cathy: Well, and I think it may, the first time I read it made me totally teary because that’s all anybody wants, right? And I don’t just mean moms or women. I mean, anybody, because I think the, I’ll try to explain this, you know, without getting too in the weeds about it. Um, but I think, so for example. When I came down here to podcast, like my hair’s still kind [00:14:00] of wet.

[00:14:00] Cathy: And so I’m putting on the earphones and I’m trying to, you know, like look normal with the earphones and my hair’s wet and Todd’s like kind of joking or like you could just put a hat on or whatever. So there’s these two layers. There’s number one, I need to at least look decent. Because I’m a woman who’s on YouTube, right?

[00:14:18] Cathy: And then there’s the second layer of, and Todd, you weren’t doing this, but an outside force shaming me for not being ready and being worried about the way I look. Okay, it’s the total Barbie, you know, monologue. Which is, be this way, but don’t be this way. Do this, but don’t do this. And I think there’s a lot of, when you are a mom, there’s like, well, if you want to go work out, go work out.

[00:14:42] Cathy: And then, A kid comes in and says, I need to talk to you so you don’t go work out because you’re going to be with them. And then you’ll say, well, I didn’t get to work out because this kid wanted to talk to me. Well, you should just tell them you’re busy. You should, well then, find another time. There’s, there’s always this feeling of I’m doing it wrong because there’s always a way to point out how there’s another, there’s this path I’m missing versus someone saying, wow, you you gave up your workout time to listen to her.

[00:15:13] Cathy: That’s really she probably appreciated that. Not a, not a, um, Oh, you poor thing. You don’t want like sympathy, but someone saying, wow, that’s mothering. And you’re like, okay, so you’re okay with like giving up the workout because you did something that was important. I’m not, and everybody don’t read too into this.

[00:15:32] Cathy: I’m not saying give up your workouts all the time. What I’m saying is, you know, I told Don, all my kids were home. They’re all back at school, or my two oldest are back at school, and um, my youngest is doing school in her room today because it’s so cold here and school’s shut down, um, but when everyone was home, like, I was meditating and people were walking in the room again and asking me questions while I was meditating and taking my car, and like, I was back into that world of where [00:16:00] everybody’s like, all over me and I don’t have that time.

[00:16:03] Cathy: And I, it’s hard to go back and forth, but that was the first 20 years of my life. And, and the, the thing that you want is not someone saying, okay, I’ll take over the kids. Now you go do a bunch of things. You want someone saying, I see that. You just want, which he did, like I see that your meditation got interrupted, not, now I’m going to fix it, but your mothering is beautiful.

[00:16:27] Cathy: Just

[00:16:28] Todd: noticing. Yeah.

[00:16:29] Cathy: All the sacrifices. The sacrifices and that you are, I think that’s the fine line again, is you’re not, I don’t need sympathy. I, I, it’s, I, you know, I loved the, like, shielding your kid from the sun. We’re doing that all the time. Like I’m trying to, like, you know, just before I went up to take a shower, like I was home earlier.

[00:16:51] Cathy: I could have gotten in the shower earlier cause you were like ready and you’re like, when you came home, I was, but I wanted to sit downstairs. with Skylar while she ate breakfast because she’s got school inside today. It’s kind of blowy. I didn’t want to be in a hurry. I didn’t want to walk in and be like, me, me, me, me.

[00:17:07] Cathy: And I got to go somewhere. I want to be like, hi, you, do you want me to make you an English muffin? Um, tell me how, you know, how are you going to jump on class? You know, like I don’t want to be. And so. I think sometimes that can be perceived as you’re not putting the right things in order. And I feel like I am.

[00:17:24] Cathy: You’re not saying this, by the way. But there’s this societal thing of like, you’re not on time or you’re not getting as many things done. And I think that for a man or another woman or whoever to see that mothering is very slow sometimes. And sometimes it’s very martyry, you know? Sure. But it’s also, um, that’s what it is.

[00:17:49] Cathy: Like, that’s what mother, to, to me, again, we’re talking about words, mothering means different things to different people, but to me, it means paying attention to these people.

[00:17:56] Todd: Well, and it’s funny because, um, first of all, I [00:18:00] do do that, which is, you know, you don’t have to blah, blah, blah, you know, so I just want to own that.

[00:18:05] Todd: Yeah. I’m like, oh, it’s fine. And, and I don’t, I don’t do a good job of empathizing and seeing the world through your eyes. But what’s interesting this morning is what I said to you before we press record, I said, are you ready? Like, that’s literally what I said and then, then you’re like, well, I got to do all these things.

[00:18:23] Todd: So that’s, I just feel like because you’re so used to people just not like being dismissive of your experience, um, your radar’s up for being like, no, I’m not ready. I need to do all

[00:18:37] Cathy: these things. Well, do you think that I was mad when you said? Are you ready? No. Really, I was like, no, because I still have earphones in.

[00:18:43] Cathy: It had nothing to do with my

[00:18:44] Todd: appearance. I don’t think you’re mad at me. Right. I just think like, no, this is yet another thing that, that I have to do and you don’t, which is true.

[00:18:52] Cathy: Right. Which is, yes, I, I totally see what you’re saying. To me this morning, five minutes ago or whenever, that was more conversational than it was, let me teach you a lesson.

[00:19:01] Cathy: Because I was, you, cause you said, do you, are you ready? And then you said, are you having a hard time with your earphones? And I said, no, I’m trying to make my hair look halfway decent because, and you’re like, no, you don’t need to do that. And I’m like, yes. I do. This

[00:19:16] Todd: is the about last night

[00:19:18] Cathy: scene. It’s the total about last night scene and it’s every conversation that, and that’s the point I was trying to make is there’s this double whammy with, I’m going to be gender specific now because this is between you and I, of hurry up and you don’t need to do that.

[00:19:36] Cathy: And that’s not being seen. Because, yes I do. I know not a lot of people watch this on YouTube and I don’t even have any makeup on. It’s not like I’m trying super hard. But I can’t, like, go, you, you, like, have a hat on and you still have your workout shirt on. Sure. I could do that, but I get, I mean, honestly, I’ve told this story a million times, but I want to say it again because it lends itself really well.

[00:19:58] Cathy: I just was telling, a [00:20:00] couple weeks ago, this lady who was doing my nails, this story. I used to do TV stuff. And I stopped doing it because of the comments on my appearance. So think about that like that. And that was my own choice. Nobody needs to feel sorry for me, but I was doing TV. And people are like, but when you show up, they do your makeup and they do this.

[00:20:21] Cathy: No, they don’t. Maybe they do now, but they didn’t 10 years ago. They expected me to look good when I walked in. And I don’t know if you guys know this, but normal makeup does not translate on camera. You have to have really heavy makeup.

[00:20:35] Todd: I remember when they did that, uh, kids in the house thing. Yes. And they put all that makeup on

[00:20:39] Cathy: both of us?

[00:20:40] Cathy: Yes, and then when I did the Lewis Howes show, remember I went, the lady did the makeup and I walked in and I said, I know I look crazy. I said, but when You see me on TV, it’ll be normal. And so I’m saying this because my good friend, John Duffy, who is, um, going to be a part of our conference, he did TV all the time.

[00:21:00] Cathy: And I would tell him he was just like Kelly Clarkson. And he’d used to do the Steve Harvey show and. I said to him, part of the reason I stopped doing it is I feel like the, I, we, there wasn’t, um, as much social networking back then, but I would get texts or phone calls from people about like, oh, next time have your hair blown out or what’s up with the red vest or whatever.

[00:21:22] Cathy: I’m like, did you hear what I said? Like, I’m coming on to talk about something and the appearance was getting in the way and I was like, Todd, you know what would be great? A podcast. Boom. Right? Because then, because I, and I feel fine about the way I look. This is not a self depreciating thing. This is a, it got in the way thing.

[00:21:39] Cathy: Societal. Yeah. Societal and, and so I was like, that’s, it’s too much time for me to worry

[00:21:45] Todd: about that. Um, are we ready to hear Dan and Deb have a kind of a fight about last night? Go ahead. I might have to bleep some stuff. I don’t know. But, um, Kathy and I also do a podcast called Pop Culturing. Did we do one last night?

[00:21:57] Todd: Last night. All right. So this speaks a little bit to what [00:22:00] we’re talking. Okay.

[00:22:02] Cathy: Who invented sandwich night? That has nothing to do with this. All I’m asking for is a little help. Yeah, because you tried to turn this nice dinner into a goddamn Norman Rockwell painting. Would you please not put this on the counter?

[00:22:13] Cathy: You see this black stuff? This gets in the little cracks in the porcelain and then I get it on my fingers. I’ll make an effort. And would you make an effort to clean up these wrappers and trash can? Why don’t you just flush them? Flush them! You want me to waste eight gallons of water so that you don’t have to look at a piece of paper with the word Tampax written on it?

[00:22:32] Cathy: Oh, you didn’t even say Tampax, you had to say those wrappers. Does it offend you that much? No, I just want you to hit the trash can or the toilet, not the floor. Fine, I’ll work on my dunk shot. But what I’m trying to say to you is you don’t need a lot of this shit. I think you look pretty the way you are.

[00:22:46] Cathy: No, you look great just the way you are. Some of us have to work at it. Why

[00:22:51] Todd: do you wear all this stuff? To impress your boss? And then they go on from there. But that last part is the one, is the part I wanted to share is, uh, you know, you look pretty the way you are. I’m sure I’ve said that to you.

[00:23:03] Cathy: Well, and that’s the thing is like, okay, so.

[00:23:07] Cathy: You know, it’s the whole, you know, and I always think of the Amy Schumer thing, you know, the makeup thing. We played it recently, so you don’t have to play it again. But where they’re like, girl, don’t wear any makeup. Yeah, she doesn’t wear any makeup. And they’re like, whoa, put some makeup on. So what do we hear when we hear about marriages?

[00:23:21] Cathy: Sometimes where you get more into middle age. And, and again, it can go one way or the other, it’s not always gender specific, but where someone’s like, they’re not taking care of themselves anymore, they don’t look good anymore. And so there’s this like, you don’t have to work so hard, you don’t have to buy all this makeup, you don’t have to do that, but oh, you’re really letting yourself go.

[00:23:39] Cathy: There’s like this double whammy, and I am willing to bet, because you work with men, that men feel similarly, kind of like, I’m making this up, but maybe A partner is like, you know, a woman is like, you know, you need to stay home more. You’re always at the gym. You’re always going out. And then two weeks later, they’re like, you’re gaining weight.

[00:23:56] Cathy: You know, like it doesn’t have to just be one way, but I [00:24:00] think sometimes, um, there is this expectation of, well, let me go back to, to knock on that tangent. Your friend, Jim’s, um. You know, thing that he wrote is that what he’s saying is I’m seeing these small things and I’m not problem solving for you. I’m, I’m not saying, you know, where are the 10, 000 other things you should be doing?

[00:24:21] Cathy: I see that you’re blocking the sun

[00:24:23] Todd: from our child. Most guys, if they’re an average or slightly above average dad, they will maybe try to fix or whatever. But I think Jim goes one step further. And tells her, probably in her love language, let’s just assume she’s words, maybe she’s not, how much he sees.

[00:24:44] Todd: Right. And as much, as good of a dad and husband I think I am, I just, I am inspired by his ability to notice and recognize it because I do notice it probably in the moment, but I don’t log it in my brain. Like, it would take me a long time to write down all the things that you do because you do so many things.

[00:25:03] Todd: Jim somehow logged this in his brain and then wrote it to her in a beautiful Mother’s Day letter that he shared with the world. And I just think it’s such a wonderful example of what I think relationships need, which is to, to be seen. Not, not for us guys to fix the problems that we think our wives have.

[00:25:21] Cathy: Right. Or to see. Exactly. And to see that those things that your wife is doing have meaning because like he pointed out, like, you know, talking to her about the lake and the water and how things work. And so, like, you know, generally, like, if you’re having a conversation with your child about their feelings or having breakfast with them or paying attention to them, or like yesterday, I drove Cameron back to college and you’re like, my hip was hurting and you’re like, I’ll just do it.

[00:25:49] Cathy: And I was like, well, I already told her, like, we already have a plan. That I’m going to drive her back. And you actually didn’t say anything, but historically you’d be like, it’s fine. It’s fine. And I think that’s a [00:26:00] relationship thing. I think that when I say I’m going to do something, Sweetie, are you a rule follower?

[00:26:04] Cathy: No, it’s not. It’s not that. I was just kidding. It’s not like, and there are times, like say I was sick or I had a migraine, of course I wouldn’t. You made a commitment.

[00:26:13] Todd: I wouldn’t hurt yourself. You made a commitment to Cameron. Yes. That you would be the one

[00:26:17] Cathy: to drive her. Yeah. And, and I wanted to. And, and they’re, so in that scenario, you were great about it, but there’s like two ways to look at that.

[00:26:25] Cathy: Someone could be like, well, then deal with your hip, you know, or it could be like, you’re really committed to her. If anything changes, let me know, like, see, see what I’m doing rather than. Um, and again, I’m not, I, I feel bad because I feel like you think I’m talking to you all the time and I’m not. I’m speaking generally.

[00:26:42] Cathy: See what I’m doing instead of noticing how I’m flawed in my thinking all the time. I think there is a, again, the problem solving, part of the problem solving. of a partner is there’s always let me point out how you’re doing it wrong. Oh,

[00:26:58] Todd: and us guys love

[00:26:59] Cathy: saying that. Versus let me notice how you are actually making a commitment to something different than maybe I don’t make a commitment to.

[00:27:06] Cathy: Yeah. Which is emotional well being, relationship building, what the lake is doing, how the sun is shining. Um, there’s a lot of, it’s that conversation, you know, that we had about the holidays about how the expectation that things just like that are taught and who’s doing that. And it’s often women, um, and, and men too, obviously men too, but there’s, you know, sometimes men are even more into nature and teaching that.

[00:27:35] Cathy: So I don’t, I don’t want to take that away from anybody, but that’s important. That is just as important as learning how to manage money. To me. Yeah. Now you may say differently. And you know what’s so cool? On that note, do you know that Cameron’s taking a money class this semester because

[00:27:50] Todd: of you? I do know that, and I want to take it with her.

[00:27:53] Todd: I know!

[00:27:54] Cathy: University of Iowa offers a class on personal financial, and it’s a, um, [00:28:00]

[00:28:00] Todd: asynchronous. I think it’s got a cuter name, like money something or whatever, but yeah, it’s just how to manage money, and what she’s going to find out is all these things that I’ve been saying to her, and her rolling her eyes on, which is, you know, starting a IRA, or 401k, not a 401k, starting a, uh, And the individual retirement account, she’s been the one that has made fun of me the most.

[00:28:21] Todd: Like, why would I ever put money away only to see it at 59 and a half?

[00:28:26] Cathy: And I think you know this, and you’re right, like, she probably has rolled her eyes the most, but doesn’t that make sense for a teenager? What teenager? Oh yeah, it does. Unless you’re Alex P.

[00:28:34] Todd: Keaton. But I just have a feeling that she’s gonna be like, oh wow, my dad maybe Maybe didn’t, I’ve heard this before is what she’s going to realize, I think.

[00:28:44] Cathy: Yes, definitely she’s heard it before. So let me take, can I take one more story? Can I, I want to pull it from what you just said and not focus on Todd, but focus on everybody. So my daughter is like, I’m going to take this money management class. She was on a wait list for it. And she’s like, I knew, I knew dad would love this class.

[00:29:00] Cathy: She was so excited when she got into it, you know? And so she’s taking it. It’s two credits, blah, blah, blah. And so Todd is pointing out she’s always rolled her eyes, but a lot of times, as parents, can we recognize that them rolling their eyes when they’re young is normal, and that we don’t need to get frustrated about it.

[00:29:18] Cathy: They don’t understand how the world works, but the piece that I want Todd or anyone to pull from that is she’s taking a money class because she heard you. Yeah. We get so focused on the C. See, I told you, you’re not, or why didn’t you listen to me before, or if you would have started before. She heard you.

[00:29:37] Cathy: Yeah. She knows it’s important, but she needed to. do it on her time. Sure. And I’m so grateful she’s doing it in college and we’re acting as if she’s even learned anything yet. She hasn’t even started. Yeah. But I just found it to be very satisfying. For sure. That she was doing it

[00:29:55] Todd: because of you. Yeah. I’m excited to, and it’ll be something wonderful for us to [00:30:00] connect

[00:30:00] Cathy: on.

[00:30:00] Cathy: Right? For sure. Because I think she’s going to be, she’s such, not that math always equals good financial management, but I think she’ll be good at it because she loves math and she loves when things like work out. She’s a little more, she’s more, she’s my child who’s more literal, you know, like everything is black and white, black and white.

[00:30:18] Cathy: And she, I think she’ll very much enjoy seeing money grow.

[00:30:22] Todd: There’s a lot of black and white and personal financial. Yes, for sure. Yes. Um, so two last things. Um, Actually, three less things. One is, so Jim Herbert, my friend, has a podcast himself. I just want to give it a plug and it’s called It’s About Life and he does it with this other woman and it’s really deep and spiritual and logical and it’s just really good.

[00:30:42] Todd: So check that out. Um, second thing is we did do a pop culturing on About Last Night. I don’t know the last time we recorded a pop culturing episode. We’ve been. Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift. Uh, and then last thing about, um, right about now is where I put in our promo, um, in the middle of the show. So instead of us doing it, um, we’re about to talk about, um, Team Zen in the conference.

[00:31:06] Todd: So. Right

[00:31:07] Cathy: about now.

[00:31:09] Todd: What’s that song? Try about now, punk soul brother, check it

[00:31:13] Cathy: out now. I don’t know. Okay, yeah, just when you said right about now, it just reminded me of that. So,

[00:31:17] Todd: um. So, here we go. So, let’s jump into the topic. Oh, so

[00:31:21] Cathy: the promo. I thought you meant we were going to do

[00:31:23] Todd: the promo. No, no. Okay. I don’t need to listen to it twice today.

[00:31:26] Todd: Okay. Okay.

[00:31:26] Cathy: So. Buy your tickets. Come to the conference, please. It’s in two weeks. Okay. So, um, we kind of already have talking, talked about the topic a little bit. It’s not new, but let’s, let’s focus on the word healthy. Okay. Okay. Okay.

[00:31:38] Todd: Let’s focus on healthy, but I also, if possible, we have time, I would love to talk about sympathy and empathy too.

[00:31:43] Todd: Oh, sure, sure,

[00:31:44] Cathy: sure, sure. So I think that it, it’s funny because I’ve been listening to podcasts for the last two or three days, as I always do, but, um, Jason and Ellen, um, from the relationship school, they were talking about what a healthy relationship means. And so this kind of, I’m. [00:32:00] feeling them right now as we discuss this.

[00:32:02] Cathy: They didn’t so much focus on what the word means as figuring out for yourself what a healthy relationship is, but that in itself, I think sometimes we use the word healthy to kind of like rule follower, right? Where it kind of. Keeps us untouchable, and we can say this is what we’re focusing on, and this is what we want, and then nobody can question it.

[00:32:26] Cathy: But what does that mean? Because Todd, if I were to say to you, I think our relationship should be more healthy. What you’d probably be like,

[00:32:35] Todd: okay. I would say in what aspect is it unhealthy and what are some of the aspects? Is it community from a communication standpoint? Is it from a sexual standpoint? Is it from an intimacy, intimacy standpoint?

[00:32:47] Todd: What’s the difference between sex and intimacy? Is it from a parenting standpoint, maybe I’m parenting the girls different than you are. So

[00:32:54] Cathy: is it from, we were just talking about this being seen. Mm-Hmm. . Because, you know, the, what I wanna connect with that is, you know, remember we played the Taylor Swift song a couple weeks ago?

[00:33:03] Cathy: Oh yeah. And, and she says in it, you know, there’s a, where she said, who only you only, she only wanted you to see her. Like, and sometimes guys are like. I’m sorry, it’s hard for me to not do guy girl here, but there’s a lot of like, I do see you, you look good, I see you. And being seen is different for everybody.

[00:33:26] Cathy: What does being seen mean? So Todd, if I were to say, To you, um, what does being seen by me mean, like to you?

[00:33:36] Todd: Um, well the first, and this is probably right or wrong, the first thing I think of is when we’re going to go out for a date, uh huh, because it’s the easiest example I can come up with. You know, you do your hair and your makeup.

[00:33:48] Todd: But I want to know what you

[00:33:49] Cathy: think being seen is. How do I see you? How do you see me? Um. Like Todd’s like, oh, Kathy really sees me. Oh.

[00:33:56] Todd: Why? Um, how do I know that you see me? How do you [00:34:00] communicate that to me? You tell me that I’m good at things. And you tell me the important work that I do. And you, when I get a raise or a bonus, you say congratulations.

[00:34:11] Todd: Um. You tell me I’m a good dad. You just told me on the podcast that I influenced Cameron to take a money class. So that’s off the top of my head. So

[00:34:21] Cathy: what’s interesting about that is this is important because you and I talk about our love languages all the time. All of those things are words and you claim to not need words.

[00:34:31] Cathy: But those words that I share with you, you feel seen. So why I’m pointing this out is not just to Todd, but I think sometimes it’s very easy. Like Todd will say, I’m an acts of service guy. I don’t need words. People don’t need to tell me things. And I always call bull crap on that. Everybody needs to be seen in a way where someone’s saying, I notice you.

[00:34:53] Cathy: And even because like, because you’ve told me before that sometimes the way you feel loved is I take care of the girls in a certain way, or maybe I clean the house or do things. And I know, I know those are very gender specific, but I do things that go unseen. And that’s how you feel loved. But if I only did those things, And I never told you that you were valuable and important.

[00:35:15] Cathy: I don’t know if that would be enough. It wouldn’t

[00:35:17] Todd: be as impactful, but I do claim that the one of the best gifts, the one of the best ways you love me is being the amazing mother to our three daughters, and which is acts of service. Yeah. Has nothing to do with words. It is. That is. As far as I’m concerned, one of the biggest ways that I feel you love me is the way in which you are so patient and almost always err on the side of putting your own needs aside for the sake of our daughters, like you did with the English muffin this morning instead of getting in the shower.

[00:35:53] Todd: So that is, for me, how I just, you know, you’re the best. Oh, thanks.

[00:35:59] Cathy: [00:36:00] That’s, that’s nice. I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. And. And the plus is being seen is definitely, um, that’s an acts of service, but that when I say what you do is valuable, wow, that was really good. That was smart. Or congratulations, or you earned that.

[00:36:16] Cathy: That feels good too. And, and you know that like all, all love languages are, we have all, we all have all. Yeah. So it’s not like we’re trying to, but I think that there are some, you know, it’s kind of like. I think in some people’s minds, and you tell me if I’m wrong, words and GIFs seem

[00:36:35] Todd: Um, and of course in some people’s minds, I, I, gifts are not at all important to me.

[00:36:43] Todd: I think it’s probably fifth. And even if like you wrote me a card or gave me flowers or something, I’d be like, great. And four seconds later I would move on with my day. Um, so yeah, and that’s just my own, I think gifts is probably fifth for me out of the five. Yeah. You know, just, and which is why I suck at gift giving getting better.

[00:37:04] Todd: Working on it. Mm hmm. But I saw. Oh, I

[00:37:06] Cathy: love my, my gifts this Christmas. Um, yeah, so that, and so I think when we’re talking about, uh, you know, we were kind of getting off the track of healthy, but what does healthy mean? Part of it is how do we feel seen? Because if we are clear, like we can, I literally want to take the word healthy and like slice it up with a knife and be like, what does this mean to each person?

[00:37:30] Cathy: Because what I don’t like, and I see. Lots of people doing this, and I even see therapists doing this, but we use a lot of anecdotal evidence to, to decide how something is, and I think the most challenging anecdotal evidence is when someone has their own personal experience, and they decide that that’s how it is for everybody.

[00:37:51] Cathy: That’s just silly. Right. They’ll say my relationship is healthy because I do, you know, I go out on a date once a week and, [00:38:00] you know, we never sleep apart and, um, we have sex once a week. And so we have a healthy relationship. So that’s what everyone should do. That’s ridiculous. That’s what you do. That is what you and the person you’re with have decided to do.

[00:38:14] Cathy: And that’s, we’re only getting one side of that equation. And so there’s a lot of, you know, even though anecdotal evidence can be really good, like I use it all the time, if I’m talking about like teenage girls, it’s like, cause I, Talk to a lot of them. I take that information and I do, it does help me come up with ideas, but I don’t put it on everyone and say, so this is the truth for every teenage

[00:38:35] Todd: girl.

[00:38:36] Todd: And what’s tricky is we all, all we have is our own experience, or I mean, I guess we can quote a scientific study, I guess, or something like that, but Or if

[00:38:44] Cathy: you’re in the field of working with people, you have a lot of anecdotal evidence because you talk with people

[00:38:48] Todd: all the time. What I hope is that when I do share my experience, which might be considered an Anecdotal evidence that it resonates with whoever happens to be in front of me, and it may not.

[00:38:59] Todd: And when I’m coaching guys, I’m always like, Hey dude, this is just for me. What I do is blah, blah, blah. Now it might, that might be the opposite of what would be best for you. But, and, and most of the time, I hope whatever I’m sharing has some value, but it may

[00:39:12] Cathy: not. Well, sometimes the examples of what we do can expand to the other person’s awareness about what they want to do.

[00:39:19] Cathy: Like, I don’t necessarily think that what I do. is what everyone else should do. But if I do something that is different than the norm, I like to share that so then someone could say, well, if you’re doing that, then maybe I can do this. So they may not do that. They may not do the exact same thing I do, but they may say, will that expand?

[00:39:41] Cathy: It decreases my, you know, like when our kids were little and I used to always talk about how I really don’t participate in a lot of the PTA stuff. I don’t participate in a lot of the. school stuff or the sports stuff. I’m, I’m pretty absent from

[00:39:56] Todd: that. It doesn’t make get many brownies.

[00:39:58] Cathy: Don’t. And, [00:40:00] and it’s interesting that you say brownies because then when my girls were in Girl Scouts, sometimes the Girl Scout leaders would say, Hey, will you come talk to them about self care or whatever?

[00:40:08] Cathy: And I’m like, of course, like I didn’t have an aversion. I just knew that I didn’t want to go in and be like, that’s not where I shine in those. So I sometimes would share that with my clients. And I wouldn’t say, so quit brownies. Get out of there. It, that’s not what I meant. What I meant was you can do things to figure out what works for you rather than trying to accommodate a norm.

[00:40:33] Cathy: Yeah. Conformity. Conformity. Thank you. And you, so that’s the goal. So when you share with your clients, Hey, here’s what I do. They may not do it exactly, but they may be like, well, you know what I’m going to do? It’s similar to you. And so I think expanding awareness is really important. That’s why, that’s why conversations, obviously therapeutic ones, um, or coaching ones, but also with friends is helpful.

[00:40:55] Cathy: Sure. You hear other people’s

[00:40:56] Todd: stories. Yeah. That’s yeah, no doubt about it. Um, so the definition as, I don’t know, I think I Googled a clinical definition of health. Oh, okay. Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social wellbeing and not merely the absence Of disease or infirmity. I don’t even know what infirmity means, by the

[00:41:15] Cathy: way.

[00:41:16] Cathy: Um, isn’t it like illness? Probably. You know, if you’re infirm,

[00:41:19] Todd: you’re not well. So, uh, complete physical, mental, and social well being, that’s health. Yeah. Well, I don’t know any of us, Dara. Any of us completely grounded and do physical, mental, and social really well? I

[00:41:33] Cathy: think it’s always our goal, and I think we have glimpses of it where we’re like, I think I don’t know about you, but when I have days or moments or an hour or a second where I’m like, Ooh, everything’s really good right now.

[00:41:46] Cathy: I really try and say it out loud. Yeah. I’ll be like, Ooh, I love this. I feel so good. Yes. Because it’s fleeting. Yeah. Um, you know, I was listening to a Kelly Corrigan podcast. Um, I think it was an old one. She was talking to Jen Hatmaker [00:42:00] and she was talking about how. She, you know, she’s had a lot of loss in her life.

[00:42:05] Cathy: You know, she lost her dad and she lost one of her best friends. And you know, I feel like I’ve had, you know, a lot of loss as have you. And, um, and sometimes, you know, like my mom died a year ago and after somebody dies, you’re like, I will never. Take anything for granted. I will enjoy everything. I won’t get pissed when I’m driving around.

[00:42:25] Cathy: I will just appreciate every moment. I’m not going to care if it’s cold outside. Like you, you make these grand declarations that you’re never going to like, never like be annoyed again because you’ve had this loss and this grief and this pain. And I think that’s what pain feels like is where you’re like, I will always appreciate life.

[00:42:42] Cathy: I, I, I think that’s part of its teaching. But what’s funny is, like, it could be a couple months or three weeks later and you’re pissed because, you know, like, the car in front of you is moving slow and you get mad at yourself because you’re like, wait a second, I promised myself I wouldn’t get annoyed.

[00:43:00] Cathy: Yeah, pile that on. Right? And Kelly Corrigan, her quote is, it’s like that. Like, it’s just like that. Everything that I just said, it’s like that. Meaning, it’s like that that I get annoyed because someone’s driving slow. It’s like that that pain tells me maybe get annoyed less. Like, that’s the lesson from it.

[00:43:21] Cathy: Um, I think that We, the whole idea that we’re supposed to be, because I’m, I’m taking this from the thing about health, is being optimal at all times. No way. Yeah. No way.

[00:43:31] Todd: No, we’re, we’re wired. You know, I’m gonna quote Gattis, and he certainly didn’t make it up. We’re wired for connection and disconnection all at the same time.

[00:43:39] Todd: And disconnection is scanning the environment for threats, like survival, defense mechanisms. Like, we can’t get away from that as human beings. And we’re wired to connect with each other too. It’s at both ends. Right.

[00:43:50] Cathy: And I, and he, you know, you’re using that, but that’s rupture and repair, right? Rupture and repair.

[00:43:55] Cathy: Rupture and repair. That’s what we do, you know, all the time. Yeah. And you know, it’s funny. [00:44:00] I, I was going to, we’ll share this at the, um, conference too, because I thought it was so cool that there’s this study. And you probably know about it. Have you ever seen the, the FACES study with infants where they would, you know, have a baby and then they’d see their mom and if their mom had like no affect at all, it really bothered them?

[00:44:17] Cathy: Yes. And so you kind of see how an infant connects with a mother. Sure. And what they, they learned a lot from that study. So you would

[00:44:24] Todd: be bad at that study. I would be horrible. They’d be like, Kathy, walk in the room and don’t connect with your infant daughter. I wouldn’t

[00:44:30] Cathy: do it. And honestly, that study is not great because you’re kind of messing with the baby.

[00:44:36] Cathy: I don’t know if they would be able to really do this again, but what they did learn from it is that, you know, like pulling an idea out of it is that 33 percent of the time we are attuned with our mother when we’re little. Okay. And we can connect. We can, I don’t know how to put that into a marriage. I don’t know how it connects to other relationship, but Todd.

[00:44:58] Cathy: 33, do some fast math for me. 100 percent minus 33 is what? 67. 67 percent of the time we’re not, which means 67, 67 percent of the time we’re rupturing and repairing, rupturing and repairing. Yeah. So the idea that we’re supposed to be in tune with someone all the time, even an infant and a mother is research wise, scientifically not

[00:45:23] Todd: possible.

[00:45:24] Todd: Are we attuned? Let’s just say partners, like, like partners, is, are we attuned 10 percent of the time? Do we have any idea? No, I don’t.

[00:45:36] Cathy: And that’s what I mean. Like, I don’t know how to apply this study to marriage. I don’t know if it works that way, um, because I feel like the infant mother bond is so different.

[00:45:45] Cathy: But let’s say that the infant mother bond is the most intense, because. Right? Yeah. You know, I, it feels that way. Oh, it’s more, it’s the most primal. Primal. Thank you. Still only 33%. Yeah. So I, that gives it. So [00:46:00] if you and I were to make something up, we have no research, but say it’s 10 percent of the time we’re in tune.

[00:46:05] Cathy: 90 percent we’re not. That’s a lot of rupture and repair. And it doesn’t mean we’re always in conflict. Like don’t pull from this conversation that it means

[00:46:12] Todd: we’re No, attuned doesn’t mean dis, you know, like the, whatever, the opposite of attuned. It could be neutral. Right. It could

[00:46:20] Cathy: be not seeing each other.

[00:46:22] Cathy: It could be lost in our own minds. It could be attuned to someone else. Like, it doesn’t mean that we’re in a fight, but some of it is we’re missing each other and we need to, there’s been, or there’s an argument and we need to repair it. And so the idea that lack of conflict equals health is baloney because in conflict just means, let’s go back to Jim Herbert’s, um, You know, quote, or what he wrote in his blog, you keep correcting, I don’t, blog, I can’t say the word blog.

[00:46:53] Cathy: Um, he is saying, I see now, I understand how to see my wife where she feels seen. So, in, sometimes in a partnership, a rupture is like, I know you see me being busy, but do you see what I’m doing? And that conversation is not necessarily something that’s going to break us up. It’s something that is going to, it’s a more intimate understanding of what being seen means.

[00:47:19] Todd: Well, I just, I wrote down like 20 minutes ago. I haven’t gotten around to saying it, but there’s an art. Mm hmm. To being seen. For sure. And it could, we could, you know, downshift this into love languages, but let’s say for you and I, I might be like, no, I do see you and this is how I do it. Right. If it doesn’t land, then you’re not doing it well.

[00:47:40] Todd: Right. And then you got to tune in or ask or figure out because a lot of, you know, dudes would complain, I just don’t understand my wife, I, she wants me to see her, but I see her all the time. Like. If she’s saying she doesn’t feel seen, then you’re doing it wrong.

[00:47:55] Cathy: Right, I mean, A, it’s like A plus B equals C.

[00:47:59] Cathy: Yeah. [00:48:00] She’s saying, I don’t feel seen, therefore something is not happening. And there may be a curiosity and a deeper discovery. She may say, I don’t know what it means yet, which can feel like crazy making, I get it. But it’s also, she’s trying to figure out, and she may figure out, hey, what I realized is that I needed to see more of myself.

[00:48:20] Cathy: You know, like that can be, it’s not, it’s not one person’s job. To see someone enough where they feel whole. Someone needs to do that for themselves. But it’s okay when you’re in partnership or in relationship to feel like that person is attempting to see you in a way that makes an impact. That it’s, these are all very like nuanced understandings.

[00:48:44] Cathy: Like there is, for example, Like you just said there’s an art to seeing people. I may not be great at a bunch of things administrative things or financial things or math or You know Certain sports, whatever chess like there’s a lot of things. I really am NOT good at But I I’m really good at knowing what people And, and that doesn’t mean I, that doesn’t mean I’m right all the time when I, you know, like I still ask questions and I stay curious, but even that’s an art, you know, like I don’t walk up to people thinking I know exactly what you need.

[00:49:20] Cathy: I just know how to access them or feel that something is not being met. And what can be interesting is that if that is an art that I’m pretty good at, sometimes we can throw words on it like people pleasing or martyrdom. And while those words do mean something, meaning I can get too far into worrying about other people, there’s also this really easy way to disregard my skill.

[00:49:46] Cathy: Dismissiveness. Correct. Like, it’s your, you care so much about people, it’s your fault that you’re not getting things done. Versus like if Todd was focusing on our finances all day and he didn’t do his work [00:50:00] or something for me, he’d be like, don’t you understand the finances are the most important? And most of the world would be like, yep, you’re right.

[00:50:06] Cathy: But that’s a piece of life. That’s a capitalistic society mentality. And it’s, it’s forgetting the relationship piece.

[00:50:14] Todd: Yeah. Spoken from a two. Right. Right. So, I’m a three on the Enneagram, sorry for those of you who don’t like or understand frameworks, but three, I value getting things done so that I am seen for all the things that I do.

[00:50:29] Todd: Right. Um, and twos are all about Relationships.

[00:50:34] Cathy: Right. And can we hold them in both hands? Like I didn’t in any way mean to say that you’re missing the boat because you’re focusing on finances. I was actually trying to say I think the culture supports you more. For sure. And so. Threes.

[00:50:48] Todd: We live in a three

[00:50:49] Cathy: society.

[00:50:49] Cathy: Yeah. You like blend into society so everyone pats you on the back and says you’re amazing. If I’m not ready because I’m having a conversation with someone, or if I, I’m like your friend this morning who was like, Oh my gosh, I am so sorry, I bailed. Then people are like, God, dude, get over yourself. Versus, he’s being super kind.

[00:51:08] Cathy: He’s probably at two. Right. And he’s being thoughtful about you. Yeah. And

[00:51:13] Todd: Even though we’re

[00:51:13] Cathy: strangers. Right, but, and to you that’s like, that’s strange. And to me that’s like, Yeah. Yeah. That’s what you do. And you don’t need to give yourself away in the process. Again, nuance, balance, blah, blah, blah. But

[00:51:26] Todd: anyway.

[00:51:26] Todd: So we’ve gotten through one word and we’re 51

[00:51:28] Cathy: minutes in. But is that true? Did we really just get through one word? Well, we wanted

[00:51:32] Todd: to talk about abuse. Being

[00:51:34] Cathy: seen. We talked

[00:51:35] Todd: about that. We talked, yeah. I mean, as far as our. Pre, our pre podcast meeting, which was about four seconds upstairs. Um, so I don’t know if I want to derail talking about abuse, but we can.

[00:51:48] Cathy: Well, and you and I, that’s a, it’s a strong word. It like shifts the energy of the podcast because it makes us like, you know, kind of. Get a little bit more tight. Like, Ooh, we don’t want to offend anybody. Step on any toes and it’s more [00:52:00] serious. Um, I think it’s important though. I do too. And, and I’ll start by saying we don’t have an answer.

[00:52:06] Cathy: Because so if someone’s like, well, what is it then? Give me, I mean, Todd could read you the clinical definition of abuse if you want to hear it. But I think this can also be relative depending on the person that you’re talking to.

[00:52:19] Todd: Yeah. So let me just give a backstory of how we got here. Okay. I ran a piece, I was at a men’s weekend this weekend, a men living weekend, and I ran a whole activity on leveraging conflict, like using conflict to make relationships stronger instead of being scared, and we identified our conflict style, we did all this, but I got thrown a curveball because one of the things that I learned was that you’re not, there’s a, like a qualifier that Gaddis puts in his book is that this is, this is not meant for people who are in abusive relationships.

[00:52:51] Todd: Correct, yes. So I just. Said that really quickly at the beginning saying that if there’s abuse in the relationship Then this is not you have to get out and keep yourself safe, right? but we got into like a 25 minute discussion about what abuse is and it really kind of threw me for a loop because I was trying to do all These other things so and I said to you I had a hard time explaining, you know, I’m, I’m not a definition guy.

[00:53:15] Todd: I can’t stand when I go, what’s the definition of this? And I’ll like come up with something that I’ll hear the definition. Like, oh yeah, that’s, that’s what it is. Um, but what you and I, when we were talking in the kitchen yesterday, there, the answer is what is abuse? Now I’m about to read what the definition is when I Googled it, but for me, the answer is it depends.

[00:53:33] Todd: Now there’s some obvious examples like, oh yeah, duh, like you hit somebody, a man hitting his wife repeatedly, blah, blah, blah. That’s abuse or one time. Obviously. Yeah. Abuse, according to whatever I just Googled, means any knowing or intentional act on the part of a caregiver or any other person which results in physical injury.

[00:53:54] Todd: Unreasonable confinement, cruel punishment, sexual abuse, [00:54:00] sexual exploitation of a vulnerable adult. Mm hmm.

[00:54:03] Cathy: They didn’t use the word emotional abuse in there, huh? No.

[00:54:06] Todd: Okay. And, you know, it’s whatever website I happened to land on, so, but I Googled, you know, clinical definition of abuse and that’s what it said.

[00:54:14] Todd: So. Mm hmm. I don’t think that that’s necessarily that good of a definition. It’s so narrow. Yeah, and

[00:54:19] Cathy: you know, that’s, this is why every so many years they try and improve the DSM, which is the, uh, you know, Diagnostical Statistical Manual for Therapists to upgrade what the new diagnosis is for people.

[00:54:31] Cathy: They’re always trying to re qualify and re You know, commit to, to symptom, you know, what the symptomatology is like, and it’s the same thing with, with like, um, giving the, what’s, what’s the word I’m looking for, the definition, you’re, you’re always having to rework it. And I think that what’s interesting is, what I told Todd, and you know, I don’t know if the guys from Men Living Listen this podcast, but the first thing I said was, I would love to be in a room with a group of men and hear their definition or understanding of abuse.

[00:55:05] Cathy: And I, I think that as a clinician, I would love to do that. And that obviously I have been with men who have discussed it, but you were with all men having a discussion and it would be really interesting because women have these discussions all the time and there is a clarity of the power dynamic,

[00:55:22] Todd: right?

[00:55:22] Todd: Well, and so, so if, uh, if let’s just say, let’s keep it heteronormative for a second. If a man hits his wife. Yes. And let’s just assume that the man is physically bigger and stronger than, because there are some marriages where there’s a, the woman is more physic, physically superior.

[00:55:39] Cathy: Sure. We, we’ve had those.

[00:55:41] Todd: Yeah. Of course. Um, man hits his wife. That’s physical abuse. Correct. One time. That’s physical abuse. Correct. Where we struggled with, there’s like all these nuances, like let’s say a woman is screaming at her husband. Right. One time. Is that abuse or is that woman’s having a bad day? Right. Like, I don’t know.

[00:55:59] Todd: [00:56:00] If a woman does that every day for a week, I’d say, Oh, we’re leaning into some abuse. Right. But if, does one time mean that that’s abuse? I, I don’t know.

[00:56:08] Cathy: Well, you, and you’re kind of mixing apples and oranges because you’re talking about You know, if a man hits a woman, it’s abuse, but if a woman yells at a man, is it abuse?

[00:56:15] Cathy: Those are two

[00:56:16] Todd: very different things. Let’s say, let’s say a man yells at a woman. Uh huh. Is that verbal

[00:56:20] Cathy: abuse? Um, well, and that’s the thing. There, this is where, this is where you slice it up where it’s like, can there be an abusive Uh, like a, an abusive experience versus this person is an abuser. Do you know what I mean?

[00:56:35] Cathy: Like there, that, that verbal outburst felt abusive because it felt like you were coming at me. You know what I mean? That felt, I felt afraid. I felt like you were blaming me. I felt like you could get even more. Inflamed or enraged and I felt scared so that felt like an abusive experience and being able to because here’s what’s the conversation you and I had is that some families have a way of interacting where they yell at each other that I may view as wow that feels abusive and they may say that’s my norm that’s how we talk and that and I’m not giving it a pass because if you’re in a partnership with someone who doesn’t find that a norm then you need to work out something that’s going to be more with them.

[00:57:19] Cathy: Healthy for, and I’m going to use that word, for both of you, more manageable for both of you. And that’s why, and let me get back to saying why I would love to hear men talk about this is because it is a, I think men are, um, obviously we know this statistically, I don’t need to beat around the bush, are the ones who are.

[00:57:38] Cathy: Often being called abusers, right? Because of what they’ve done or their experiences or whatever. It does not mean men don’t get abused. Of course. Because of course they do. Sometimes, a lot of times, by other men. Sure. That’s what, don’t you find that interesting? Like, because a lot of times we’ll look at the marriage and we’ll say the, the few story, or the stories that we know, there’s not few, there’s, there’s many out there, but [00:58:00] of a woman, you know, kicked them or hurt them or was verbally assaultive or whatever.

[00:58:04] Cathy: But a lot of times men are being abused by other men and I don’t just mean molested. I mean like verbally abused. I mean like talked down to. So I think men are also afraid of other men when you say that, you know, there’s no doubt about it. Right. And so I would, I’m more interested in more of like a, not anthropological, but sociological listening.

[00:58:26] Cathy: I would, I just want to be kind of like a fly on the wall because I would love to hear how, you know, Men relate to that word. Well, and

[00:58:34] Todd: I think the reason one of the men really wanted to double down on what abuse is, is I don’t know this, but it’s possible there could have been some historic pattern of

[00:58:45] Cathy: abuse.

[00:58:46] Cathy: Of

[00:58:46] Todd: family. Maybe a parent. Maybe an uncle. That’s it. Physical, sexual, emotional, verbal, whatever that is. Now what Gatis says in the beginning of the book is, um, this is not for abusive relationships. Right. Right? He didn’t say abusive moments. He’s like, but then what’s categorized as an abusive relationship?

[00:59:04] Todd: Is it one time a year my wife yells at me? Is that an abusive relationship? I don’t think so. If it’s once a week, maybe. I don’t know. Like, I don’t, there’s no clear cut to any

[00:59:17] Cathy: of this. There isn’t. And I think you’re, because of your brain and the way it works, you’re trying to be very logical and mathematical about it.

[00:59:23] Cathy: And I think this becomes clinical. I think this becomes like, if somebody is unsure, it’s kind of like, you know, someone’s like, I don’t know if, if I have a drinking problem. Or if, and someone could say, well, you do because A, B and C and you do, but they need to figure that out with a clinician or someone in AA or someone, you know, that they need to have a process, you know, to figure these things out.

[00:59:49] Cathy: And if somebody is questioning, am I being abused? It’s a necessary conversation to have with somebody who can help you work through that because most of the time we’re [01:00:00] not questioning. that unless there’s something that needs to be dealt with. Right. Do you know what I mean? Right. And it doesn’t necessarily mean we label it.

[01:00:08] Cathy: Yeah. This is where words, this is why words are so interesting. We’re so afraid of certain words that we won’t talk about things. Right. Like They’re, you know, going way back into Zen Parenting Radio Archives is in the first three or four years, something that I always talked about was there certain words that I don’t use.

[01:00:28] Cathy: And now these words don’t bother me. Like, I didn’t use the word husband. Because I had learned from being a single woman in my 20s for a, you know, single for a long time. And people would talk about their husbands to me with this negative connotation. So when you got When we got married and you were my husband, I was like, Oh, that word makes me feel like we’re not in the same relationship we were in before.

[01:00:53] Cathy: So I prefer, and I didn’t walk around calling you my boyfriend. I just was like, Todd and I, I didn’t, I didn’t have a romantic relationship with that word. And so now I’m fine with it. I worked through that, but I’d gone through that with the word God. I’ve gone through that. And I think that. You have to, or divorce, people are scared to death of that word, right?

[01:01:13] Cathy: And when you really kind of dissect it, sometimes that’s what then creates, and I’m putting this in air quotes, a more healthy experience for a family. No doubt. I think when it comes to this word abuse, we don’t have, you know, like I said, we don’t have a final answer, but it’s it, if there’s any question about it, I don’t think you, Todd or I, Kathy can say, well, let me tell you the definitive definition.

[01:01:35] Cathy: Yeah. I think it becomes a more clinical, personal, sure. Because like you said, say one more thing about it. If, I’ll just use your friend, you know, who was like unsure about it and he may have a history of being abused. So he may be more triggered by things that you may not be. Of course. We all have a

[01:01:57] Todd: tolerance level of comfort [01:02:00] with anything.

[01:02:01] Cathy: And he may say, that felt abusive to me because it reminded me of my past. You know? Activated a wound. Correct. So it’s very, it’s, I don’t, I don’t like to use it’s dicey or difficult. It’s nuanced. Yeah. And I think that our ability to, again, as friends or clinicians to not apply so much anecdotal or personal onto other people and instead allow their experience to dictate what they do next and, you know, support

[01:02:29] Todd: them in that.

[01:02:30] Todd: Some of the words that we didn’t get to, like I just wrote down, add addiction. Right? And we’re not going to get into it because we’re an hour and two minutes in. But like one person, um, you know, some people would be like, well, an addiction is anything that compromises the well being of your life. Well, if I have too many red bovoncas last Friday and I wake up hungover on Saturday, then by definition, I didn’t get anything done that I wanted to get done.

[01:02:53] Todd: That’s would be But no, that’s just like a one time shot. So like there’s nuance to all these words. Empathy and sympathy. I still don’t understand how sympathy is a helpful thing. I understand what empathy is. And I, there’s these sympathy cards. And as my understanding of sympathy is it sucks to be you, according to Brene Brown definition.

[01:03:13] Todd: So,

[01:03:14] Cathy: and, and, you know, I think sympathy cards is just a part of our cultural lexicon. Like we, we just call them sympathy cards when really she was trying to dig into the fact that sympathy is very on the outside of your experience. I’m looking, like, for example, there’s somebody I know that I don’t see very often at all, but I know that a parent just died.

[01:03:38] Cathy: And I, so I wrote a card and sent it. Now, I am not fully involved. In her emotional experience, because I don’t see her, so it kind of feels a little more like here’s sympathy, not in a, oh, sucks to be you, because I’ve had the same experience, but more like I’m not gonna, I don’t need to go there with her, [01:04:00] but with the people I’m working with, talking to, people I love, care about, connected to, sympathy is off putting, whereas empathy is I don’t know exactly what to do here.

[01:04:12] Cathy: I don’t have any final answers, but I want you to know I’m here and I’m not going to run away from this. I’m not going to turn away from your pain. Yeah. And that’s, you know, sympathy is, is a little more on the outside of the experience. One

[01:04:26] Todd: more curveball and then we’ll close shop. Okay. We’re having a discussion this weekend about funerals and death.

[01:04:34] Todd: And, uh, we talked a little bit about the. The idea of the celebration of life. Yeah. And I get annoyed, uh, a little bit by the celebration of life idea because what it does is it takes away from, from my experience of being really sad and it’s almost like he glosses over the celebration of life, puts me in a different state where like, Oh no, we just have to celebrate this person’s life.

[01:04:58] Todd: But in the meantime, they’re gone and I’m sad, so I don’t want to celebrate anything. I just want to be sad. And. It totally makes sense. Of course we’re going to celebrate their life. So it’s, I get, I’m still navigating my relationship with the idea of the celebration of

[01:05:14] Cathy: life. Well, I think I can help a little bit is that you, in the way that you just described that, you’re saying that You need the space to be sad in that experience of the, the, the funeral, we’ll just use the word funeral, that you’re like, I want the space to be sad here, when really that’s like a four hour window of time.

[01:05:37] Cathy: If you have a celebration of life, that doesn’t then keep you happy from there on. Like, for example, I definitely would say both of my parents funerals were, and your mom’s, I think too, were very much celebrations of life. Like we did a lot of laughing, we even dressed a certain way, you know, like, it was more, it wasn’t, let’s, even though we did cry, the [01:06:00] focus was on, these are all the great things about my mom, right?

[01:06:03] Cathy: Let’s celebrate her life. But when that service was over. I was sad again. So that experience didn’t take away from the grief. Like that is, that is a moment to, and I think this is especially true, Todd, is especially if somebody dies tragically or unexpectedly, their, their death is not their life. That’s just their death.

[01:06:28] Cathy: And so if you are just at the funeral focusing on the death, then you miss the however many years they were here. So. I totally hear what you’re saying, like, you’re saying, let’s not jump over grief, like, you’re like, this is sad, but at, you know, at your mom’s wake, at my parents wake, at all the wakes we’ve gone to, you know, friends, we have laughed and cried.

[01:06:53] Cathy: So does a celebration of life mean we’re not sad?

[01:06:55] Todd: Yeah. Well, yeah, and it’s just for me, it’s sometimes it’s a, it’s a, we’re calling it something to gloss over what actually would happen, but anyways, we can kind of go on and last last thing, uh, one of the men on the weekend and I, I don’t remember some native American tribe and I’m going to screw up the quote, but it was something like, you’re not dead until you’re forgotten.

[01:07:17] Todd: Which I thought was really powerful. Wow. Like, I still remember my great grandmother who died when I was in 5th grade. And it was just a very sweet moment when he shared that, because we’re all kind of like holding some space for some people who have died, and that’s what he’s sharing.

[01:07:30] Cathy: It’s so beautiful.

[01:07:31] Cathy: Well then, I feel like an extension of that is, we’re never dead, because Even if my grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren don’t know Kathy, they are of me. Yeah. Without you and I and, and our, like I, what I love is to show when the girls see pictures of like their grandmother who they didn’t know, excuse me, their great grandmother who they didn’t know.

[01:07:54] Cathy: I always say you wouldn’t be here without her. Like, not as a, you know, they don’t have to do [01:08:00] anything with that, but the recognition that it began so long ago for all of us. Like, you know, if you and I hadn’t gone to Drake, these three girls wouldn’t be here. We met at school. Yeah. You know what I mean? And these choices, like.

[01:08:13] Cathy: One last thought about that because I drove Cameron back to Iowa yesterday and we were talking about choices and about life and, you know, she applied to 11 different schools and got into most of them and had to choose, right? And I said, isn’t it interesting that Really, it’s about life paths. Oh, I was talking about the movie, Past Lives, which everybody should see, by the way.

[01:08:33] Cathy: It’s so good. And that we choose life paths, but it doesn’t mean one is better than the other. And I said, what I knew about you, Cameron, is that no matter where you choose, you chose, you were going to be fine. There isn’t a right choice. There is a right choice right now for the reasons that you have today versus where am I going to be?

[01:08:52] Cathy: You know, like we do a lot of like. navigating of what everybody says the best school is or what everyone says the best path is for me. It’s irrelevant. What’s the best thing for you right now because no matter what path you take, many believe You know, I mean, you’ll be fine no matter what, but many believe things work out the way they’re supposed to, no matter what.

[01:09:14] Cathy: Yeah. Sliding doors, you know,

[01:09:16] Todd: anyway. In closing, buy tickets to the conference. We got, I don’t know, about 40, 40 spots left, something like that. Um, tickets going fast. Um, Jeremy Kraft, he’s a bald head of beauty, painting and remodeling throughout the Chicago area, 630 956 1800. And we will catch you next week.

[01:09:35] Todd: Cue the music. Keep trucking.