Cathy and Todd share the best clips from interviews with their friends Michelle Icard, Dr. Devorah Heitner, Dr. John Duffy, and Dr. Alexandra Solomon (they are all keynote speakers at Zen Parenting, 2024, Jan 26&27)! They also discuss the heightened skincare of teens, why we need so many sweatshirts, and why conflict is so common in our most important relationships.

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Time Stamps

(00:03:44) Tournament of Bad

(00:04:08) Golden globes

(00:04:54) Water bottles

(00:06:24) face cream *

(00:19:01) Dr. Devorah Heitner

(00:23:40) Michelle Icard

(00:31:35) Owen O’Keefe *

(00:33:49) Dr. John Duffy

(00:36:46) Dr. Alexandra Solomon

(00:38:47) Todd & Cathy’s disconnector types *

(00:50:50) You’re losing me- Taylor Swift *

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Wisdom from our Friends

In this episode of Zen Parenting Radio, hosts Todd and Cathy Adams delved into a wide range of topics, from the challenges of sending kids back to school to their dislike for the end of breaks. Cathy & Todd also shared exciting details about the upcoming Zen Parenting Conference and expressed gratitude for the influential guests they’ve had on the show.

Cathy & Todd began the discussion by reflecting on societal trends, both humorous and concerning. Todd humorously complained about trends like expensive water bottles, while Cathy delved into the influence of the beauty industry on kids’ skincare routines. They shared amusing anecdotes about their own experiences with skincare products from past decades, touching on popular brands like Stridex and Biore.

In particular, Cathy highlighted the marketing pressures faced by young people, urging parents not to shame their kids for their choices. She emphasized the need for providing perspective rather than enforcing strict rules in the ever-changing landscape of the beauty industry.

The conversation took an interesting turn as the hosts explored the significance of sweatshirts, viewing them as more than just clothing items. Todd expressed confusion about the appeal of buying sweatshirts from different places, while Cathy saw them as a way to convey personal stories and experiences. The hosts reminisced about past experiences, such as attending an Adam Ant concert, emphasizing the sentimental value associated with specific memories.

Later in the episode, the hosts played clips from interviews with Devorah Heitner and Michelle Eichert, speakers at their upcoming Zen Parenting Conference. They discussed the importance of mentoring over monitoring in kids’ phone use, emphasizing open conversations and understanding the context of digital interactions. Michelle Eichert shared a personal story about her son refusing to wear his retainer, prompting Cathy to reflect on the importance of allowing children to take responsibility for their decisions.

The third segment delved into the hosts’ philosophy on parenting, stressing the significance of letting children make their own decisions and face consequences. The hosts shared stories and insights related to trusting kids’ intuition and decision-making abilities. They explored the delicate balance between enforcing rules and allowing children to navigate their lives independently, touching upon topics like tattoos, pregnancies, and drunk driving.

In a more introspective part of the episode, Cathy expressed her feelings to Todd, clarifying that when she brings up an issue, it’s not to start a fight but to resolve and prevent resentment. Todd acknowledged the importance of recognizing each other’s disconnector types in tough conversations, revealing his vulnerability and fear of not being loved when upset.

The hosts discussed different disconnector types, such as the golden retriever, porcupine, hermit crab, and feral cat, shedding light on the unconscious defense mechanisms people employ in relationships. Cathy emphasized the deep importance of relationships, clarifying that conflicts don’t signify a lack of love but rather the significance of the connection.

The segment concluded with a reference to Taylor Swift’s song “You’re Losing Me,” underlining the need for risking and addressing issues in relationships.

Cathy briefly touched on Taylor Swift’s recent song, providing context and a potential connection to her breakup with Joe. The hosts playfully wondered if Cathy was in a risk-taking mood and encouraged listeners to check out the full interview with Shefali from the previous week’s episode.

Cathy shared details about Shefali’s upcoming events at the Zen Parenting Conference, including a deep dive and keynote, emphasizing the intimate setting and relevance of the conference to parents at all stages. The hosts expressed gratitude and signed off, leaving a playful note about the lights being out in their house.

The Zen Parenting Radio podcast episode provides a rich tapestry of reflections on parenting, family life, and societal trends. With a perfect blend of humor and wisdom, Todd and Cathy Adams offer valuable insights into the challenges and joys of parenthood. From navigating beauty industry pressures to understanding disconnector types in relationships, the hosts tackle serious topics with a light-hearted approach, creating a podcast that resonates with parents at all stages of their journey.


ZPR#744 – Wisdom from our Friends Full Episode Transcript – DOWNLOAD


[00:00:05] Cathy: I don’t like it when breaks are over. Like when I

[00:00:13] Todd: broke my leg? No, because that’s got nothing to a good thing when that break was over.

[00:00:18] Cathy: No, I mean like my kids are going, one went back to college last week. One’s going back to college in a few days. Uh, my other daughter went back to school today. I’m not a fan of this like end of break

[00:00:32] Todd: time.

[00:00:33] Todd: Uh, I’m excited to get back to work.

[00:00:35] Cathy: Are you really? Yeah. Okay. I mean, I’m excited for the conference because that’s this month. That’s right. And that’s in a few weeks, but it’s just a hard, and I will tell you one quick story is that when JC was young, like 10, I remember she said, maybe we shouldn’t go on spring break because it’ll make it easier to come back from spring break.

[00:00:55] Cathy: Yeah.

[00:00:56] Todd: Right? That’s one way of handling it. We still win. We still win. Okay. All right. Let’s do this show. All righty.

[00:01:09] Todd: Here we go, my name’s Todd. This is Kathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 744 while listening to Zen Parenting Radio, because you’ll feel outstanding. And always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s well being is a parent’s self understanding.

[00:01:28] Todd: On today’s show, I have chosen a few clips from previous interviews we did. Uh, but all the people that I chose happen to be showing up at and speaking at our Zen Parenting Conference, which is in just a few weeks. And it’s, uh, John Duffy, Allie Solomon, um, maybe Dr. Alexandra Solomon, Dr. Alexandra Solomon, uh, Michelle Eichard, and, uh, maybe we’ll have the sisters on too.

[00:01:56] Todd: We’ll see. But I just want to give a Michelle and

[00:01:58] Cathy: Lauren from the Sister Project. [00:02:00] Oh, and Devorah.

[00:02:01] Todd: So we’re going to talk about each one of these speakers through a quick clip, but I want to give them some applause. We’ve had

[00:02:09] Cathy: some wonderful guests on the show. That’s true. I mean, we’ve been doing this 13 years, so we’ve had a lot of guests, but you know, um, I don’t know if I told you this, but yesterday, Jaycee’s back at school and she texted me last night that she and Mia started watching, um, the, the Vow, the NXIVM documentary.

[00:02:27] Cathy: She’s like, didn’t you know something about these people? I’m like, Jaycee, like they are, we had them on the

[00:02:33] Todd: show. So Sarah and Nippy are like the main. Amongst the main characters of The Vow, which is a documentary that talks about cults. You’re right, about

[00:02:43] Cathy: a cult called NXIVM. And I was Volleyball guy.

[00:02:47] Cathy: Volleyball guy. That’s what I call him. I was pretty enthralled with the NXIVM cult for years, and so Sarah Nippy, we Asked them to be on the show and they were on like last September. And you know, we stay in touch. And so JC’s like, don’t you

[00:03:00] Todd: know these people? I think what you’re talking about is our podcast 675.

[00:03:03] Todd: Yeah. 675 called A Little Bit Culty, a conversation with the vows, Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Nippy Ames back in September. So, uh, yeah. So our daughter had no idea how cool we were until she watched this document. Well, I feel that

[00:03:17] Cathy: way about all the people we have on the show. It’s like, we’ve been able to talk to.

[00:03:23] Cathy: some really, um, influential and interesting people. And we have, you know, benefited from it obviously because the podcast, but just as individuals, we’ve learned so much from these people and the people that are on this show today are, we’re lucky enough. Not only have they, many of them been in studio and are friends of ours, but then they’re going to be a part of our live event.

[00:03:44] Cathy: So um, we just, you know, it’s a great life. Like when you have people like this in your life. So Ruth. Um, but first,

[00:03:52] Todd: sweetie. Yes.

[00:03:53] Cathy: Turn ’em in a bed. Oh, turn in a bed. Turn in a bath. I don’t know what this is gonna be about. So this is

[00:03:58] Todd: nervous. The [00:04:00] part of the show where I complain Yes. Basically. And in no particular order, here’s some things I have to complain about.

[00:04:07] Todd: Okay. Some of them impact you sweetie. Hope you don’t come back at me. Oh, great. Okay. But first, let’s just

[00:04:12] Cathy: start out with this. Is it that I beat you last night during the Golden Globes?

[00:04:16] Todd: No, but you were really excited to kind of continue to count up the scores throughout the night. I would say

[00:04:23] Cathy: we would like, we were watching the Golden Globes and you know, we do a ballot ahead of time and every time like there would, you know, we’d be done with another, you know, award was presented.

[00:04:33] Cathy: I would say, do you want me to count up who’s winning? Yeah.

[00:04:35] Todd: And every time your count was very confident. Because you won. Yes,

[00:04:40] Cathy: I was way ahead of you. I beat you by five. I know. Okay. Anyway, sorry to interrupt your tournament at

[00:04:45] Todd: bat. Go ahead. Um, so the first one is, uh, water. I love water. Okay. I have a Zen Parenting water bottle right here.

[00:04:52] Todd: Hold on. Let me just drink some. Oh gosh, I can’t wait. So good. Um, our kids and kids in general are spending a lot of Money and social things on what their water bottle container is. What’s

[00:05:10] Cathy: social things?

[00:05:11] Todd: Like you’re cool if you get this one. And it’s because it used to be. Social currency? Yes. It used to be Hydro Flask.

[00:05:19] Todd: Remember that? Like last year was Hydro Flask. And now what’s this one you got cooking here? It’s called a Stanley. Yeah. And then now everybody loves the Stanley’s, but now there’s a new one. Yes.

[00:05:29] Cathy: It starts with an O, Ox, something, what is that called?

[00:05:33] Todd: I’m just, I got trusty old Zen Parenting Team Zen water bottle that looks great.

[00:05:39] Todd: Um,

[00:05:40] Cathy: I like the Zen Parenting water bottle when we travel because it closes and locks. Yes, and it locks. I really, and it’s, and I’m not worried about it getting hurt.

[00:05:49] Todd: Didn’t my niece Rosie just get a new water bottle? And is that going to help you figure out what that brand is? Um,

[00:05:56] Cathy: okay. It’s called Owalla. O W A L A.

[00:05:59] Cathy: [00:06:00] And I’m just

[00:06:00] Todd: done with all of it.

[00:06:01] Cathy: So it’s so funny that you, cause it says, I looked up water bottles and it says O’Walla, then Hydro Flask, then Stanley, and then Lululemon.

[00:06:10] Todd: Oh my god. And how much does the, let’s just say the, uh, a medium size O’Walla cost?

[00:06:15] Cathy: A medium size O’Walla That’s what it is on Amazon.

[00:06:19] Cathy: It’s just ridiculous. A Hydroflex is 34, a Stanley is 45. I’m just done with all of it. And then a Lululemon is 44. But

[00:06:28] Todd: sweetie, my tournament bad isn’t over yet. Okay, let’s hear it. Face cream. Wait, say that differently. Face cream. Face

[00:06:35] Cathy: cream. Face cream. That’s how people say JC’s name. JC. Face cream. Face cream.

[00:06:40] Cathy: Yes.

[00:06:41] Todd: Okay. Um, I’m probably going to get into trouble here. Okay.

[00:06:45] Cathy: By whom?

[00:06:46] Todd: People. Okay. Our, um, our, our, our children’s skin is beautiful. Right. And this industry. Yes. Like, when you were their age, were you as in? No. But you, you wore makeup,

[00:07:01] Cathy: right? I was using Stridex pads and Noxzema. Yes. So I was drying my skin out like no other.

[00:07:08] Cathy: And I was

[00:07:08] also

[00:07:08] Todd: using the Clear Thel. Are you supposed to, are you supposed to use?

[00:07:13] Cathy: I don’t think what we used on our skin was good for our skin, but I definitely wasn’t using all the serums and lotions that kids are using. I’m just kind

[00:07:20] Todd: of done with all that and I blame the Kardashians even though I know it’s that they’re partially responsible.

[00:07:25] Todd: They are a piece of the puzzle. They’re a piece, like, their skin is brand new.

[00:07:29] Cathy: It’s okay. It’s okay. Yes. Well, and the, your, your point is well taken because we’re, when we’re saying our kids, we’re not just talking about our daughters, we’re talking about kids. No, kids, kids. There are, I was talking to my aesthetician about this and she was saying that, you know, there are kids like, you know, 10 and younger who are buying all these things and, and we know this.

[00:07:49] Cathy: She isn’t the only one who told me this. Like, we’re watching this happen around us. And they haven’t even like gone through puberty yet, so like their skin hasn’t even had that like shift yet where they need kind of a [00:08:00] different regimen and we are contributing to this by, um, well, kids are being marketed at, so it’s like TikTok and Insta and everywhere that they go, they are being told to buy all these things and they’re being told that, you know, these things are flying off the shelves and they’re Favorite artists and entertainers are selling these things.

[00:08:21] Cathy: Everybody’s got a brand, you know, and then they think they need it and, and they don’t, and it’s probably hurting their skin, to be honest. And

[00:08:31] Todd: it’s costing these kids or these parents a ton of money.

[00:08:35] Cathy: Right. I actually just read, um, something, I think it was on threads, and it was somebody who worked at a Sephora.

[00:08:41] Cathy: And she did this long thread about this kid came up to the counter with a basket full of stuff. A young kid. So, for those of you who don’t know, Sephora is a makeup You know, I hate that part. I know Todd, Todd like stays as far away as he can, but she came up to the counter and this, and the woman who’s checking her out was like, wow, this is a young kid.

[00:09:02] Cathy: Like who’s paying for all this? Cause she didn’t seem to be with the parent and they added it all up and it was a thousand dollars that she had in her basket and the kid bought it like a thousand dollars.

[00:09:14] Todd: I mean, there’s so many levels and layers. Some of it is my cheapness, my frugality. Yeah. Some of it’s.

[00:09:21] Todd: Your skin is so beautiful. I know our kids’ skin are, and that I know acne happens and all that, so I, I know, I don’t know exactly what I’m talking about. Right. But there’s kids that have no acne that are putting makeup on their skin and they’re like 10 years old.

[00:09:36] Cathy: They think they’re supposed to, you know, it’s interesting because like we’ve all been there, like I was saying when I was young, um, I did.

[00:09:44] Cathy: Do everything that was in Seventeen Magazine. They told me to buy stridex pads. I did. They told me to use Noxzema. I did. Like, I did what was being marketed at me as well. And I didn’t, but I didn’t have access to, you know, Googling things and figuring things out for myself. I was just kind of buying into [00:10:00] the, what everybody else was doing.

[00:10:01] Cathy: Um, but I really do think that my kid, my kids personally who have dealt with their skin issues, what they have found. is that they’ve tried a million different things and it basically comes down to these basic, you know, tools that are just, they use, I think it’s CeraVe or Cetaphil and then a moisturizer.

[00:10:23] Cathy: It’s really basic. And I know that, um, you know, we’ve been, I’ve been to dermatologists, my kids have, you know, friends of mine have, and they tend to just say, do less. Don’t

[00:10:33] Todd: do so much. Less is more. Are you ready for a 1997 Stridex commercial? Let’s hear it. 30 seconds. Okay. Triple clean your skin with Stridex medicated pads and stop hacking around with zits.

[00:10:45] Todd: Goodbye. That was it? You know what was exciting? Well done. You’ve got zits. Stridex triple action medicated pads can help. Stridex pads triple clean your skin and help

[00:10:58] Cathy: prevent zits. One ingredient removes dirt and

[00:11:00] Todd: perspiration, a second unclogs pores, and a third dissolves deep down

[00:11:05] Cathy: oil. Spritex is so effective, it even helps keep news heads from

[00:11:09] Todd: forming.

[00:11:09] Todd: So clean up your act,

[00:11:11] Cathy: triple. Are you done? I got it. And the thing is, that is not, that’s not from childhood because they did a got mail thing. After we graduated. Yeah, so that’s not. I can’t find anything earlier than that. I’m talking like. 80s, where, and here was the fun thing about a stridex pad, it was kind of like the Biori pad.

[00:11:28] Cathy: Oh, I found

[00:11:28] Todd: an early 80s one. Okay, let’s hear it. Gotta

[00:11:30] Cathy: do it. All right. The stridex get to dirt. The stridex get to oil. The stridex get to pimples. The stridex clean the skin. The proof is on the pad. Stridex pads deep clean the pores to get rid of oil and dirt. See the

[00:11:49] Todd: proof? They’re different from ordinary skin cleansers

[00:11:52] Cathy: because they contain medicine to help prevent

[00:11:55] Todd: He’s so

[00:11:55] Cathy: specific.

[00:11:56] Cathy: Medicine! Well, and that’s what I was going to say before you started [00:12:00] that, is why it was fun is you would wipe it and you’d look at it and it would have dirt on it. Yeah, right. So you felt like you were doing something and then do you remember Biore pads, which are I think still around? You stick them on like your nose or on your face and then you pull them off and then all everything that’s in your skin is sticking to it.

[00:12:16] Cathy: Oh wow. So when you can see something like that, it makes you feel like you’re doing a good thing. But the question is with the stridex pad, is are you also removing a lot of things that your skin needs? Yeah. Like are you drying out your

[00:12:31] Todd: skin? Well, and I know that I’m lucky enough. to have good skin. So I know this isn’t about me, but I don’t like hot water and soap on my face.

[00:12:40] Todd: I’m aware. And this is like a lot of people think this is disgusting, but I don’t wash my face with soap. Right. The closest thing I do is when I’m in the shower, I just take the warm water and I just rub my face a little bit. And that’s all I do. And I know I’m really lucky, but I have a feeling a lot of this stuff that people are putting on their faces is either not doing anything or making things worse.

[00:13:02] Todd: Well,

[00:13:02] Cathy: there’s two things, and you are owning this, I know, but number one, you don’t have to wear makeup, so you don’t have to clean your skin the way women do, okay? So we need to get makeup out of our skin. The other thing is, is you already said it, the girls and I get on Todd because when he was a teenager, he did not have bad skin.

[00:13:19] Cathy: He had perfect skin and we don’t have horrible skin, but we had more issues than he did. Maybe because of makeup. Maybe, who

[00:13:28] Todd: knows, you know, probably can’t

[00:13:29] Cathy: help your skin. I don’t think it helps, but there’s plenty of people who wear makeup, who don’t have breakouts. So I don’t know what the thing is, but I would say that there is this, there is this fun.

[00:13:41] Cathy: In experimenting with makeup and face products, there is a fun I used to spend so much time at the drugstore looking at makeup and face products. There’s an enjoyment in it. Like, what else can I find? But the industry now is so different. And the things that we’re experimenting with are not from Walgreens.

[00:13:58] Cathy: They’re like 40 [00:14:00] bucks or 50 bucks. You know, it’s not 10. So, it’s a totally different time. And I think that with our kids, we have to fall into that place of It’s not about Making them feel bad about it because remember they’re being marketed at, you know, but also giving them some perspective on the necessity and also recognizing why having a gift card to Sephora is exciting like we all we always have to Align ourselves with our kids like to shame them about something that’s normal for their generation is yeah, right not doesn’t know it’s

[00:14:32] Todd: disconnecting Last but not least.

[00:14:33] Todd: Okay, I’m gonna bad. All right, this is more Adams family focused. Okay, not not No, no, no, no. Sweatshirts. Okay.

[00:14:42] Cathy: Well, that’s me.

[00:14:44] Todd: Well, JC too. My kids like to go to a place and buy a sweatshirt. Right. I don’t get that. Like, when I go to a place, like an ice cream place, I want to eat the ice cream. But a sweatshirt place, I think, I have sweatshirts at home.

[00:15:01] Todd: Todd,

[00:15:01] Cathy: it tells people where you’ve been. It’s a life story. But,

[00:15:05] Todd: but, okay, that’s the essence of the thing. Right. Why is it important? Because I got my purple sweatshirt. And I get my rainbow hoodie. I’m very aware. It doesn’t show anywhere I’ve been. Other than this guy likes a purple sweatshirt and a, and a rainbow hoodie.

[00:15:19] Todd: I don’t feel the need to tell everybody where I’ve been via my sweatshirt.

[00:15:25] Cathy: That’s fine. And you don’t, but I think a lot of people do. I think that the part of wearing sweatshirts that’s enjoyable is that it, it, it, it, sometimes it’s telling the world and sometimes it’s what makes you feel

[00:15:36] Todd: comfortable. Or a reminder that you went

[00:15:38] Cathy: to this place.

[00:15:39] Cathy: There are so many layers. And let me tell you. This started for me in seventh grade when I went to see Adamant at, went to the Adamant concert. Give me one

[00:15:46] Todd: good Adamant song. Um,

[00:15:48] Cathy: the one that everybody knows the best is probably Goody Two Shoes. My favorite was Ant Music. Which was like, it’s still one of my favorite.

[00:15:58] Cathy: All right. So I

[00:15:58] Todd: want you to tell your [00:16:00] story, but in the background.

[00:16:05] Todd: All right, sweetie, go ahead. What, what about Adam Ant? So I

[00:16:08] Cathy: went to see the Adam Ant concert and I was not going to leave that venue without a t shirt. You want to know why? Why? Because it was. I had done, I mean, you know how much I love music, right? I’d been to a show, I saw Adamant in person. I was going to school the next day.

[00:16:22] Cathy: I had to demonstrate. I had been there. I had to like, have it in my drawer to remember that it happened. Like it was essential. So that was like the beginning for me of like, I, and I don’t do it the way that, I don’t do it anymore at 52. So what you can try, put on a little make up, make up, make sure they get you good,

[00:16:43] Todd: sad, good, sad.

[00:16:44] Todd: If I was at that concert, I’d want him to play this song the whole time, because it’s the only song I think. Put ant music on. Oh, ant music? Yeah. All right, let’s do that.

[00:16:52] Cathy: Um, and he had others too, like Stand and Deliver and other ones. But anyway, um, I think that going to, sorry. Wow, quite an opening. Right?

[00:17:09] Cathy: Brutus Pop, man.

[00:17:14] Todd: This is not gonna start. Soon.

[00:17:24] Todd: Never heard that sound in

[00:17:25] Cathy: my life. Adam Ant was super cool to me. He wore makeup, which was kind of, I know we’ll be like, well, everybody did or, you know, hair bands did, but this was like previous to that. He was kind of more in that like Bowie camp, you know, but he was like a good looking guy and I just really liked him.

[00:17:41] Cathy: Anyway, um, I don’t necessarily buy concert shirts anymore, even at Taylor Swift, I didn’t buy any of her stuff because I order it from the website, like I get it cheaper doing it in a different way. Now you’re talking my language. Right, I’ve kind of learned how to do that, but my daughter goes to Grand Valley State [00:18:00] University, I have three sweatshirts from there.

[00:18:01] Cathy: My other daughter goes to University of Iowa, I have two sweatshirts from there. I have York sweatshirts, which is our high school, because all three of my daughters were there. I have, um, you know, the place we go in Florida. I have those sweatshirts. I have sweatshirts that belong to my dad that, you know, he, he’s no longer here and I like wearing his clothes.

[00:18:19] Cathy: And I have a sweatshirt that says Kasani on the back. That’s because of my mom. So they all have a meaning to me and that’s not even it. Like I.

[00:18:26] Todd: Oh, there’s a lot of sweatshirts.

[00:18:28] Cathy: A lot of sweatshirts, but just listen to those ones that I said and how important

[00:18:33] Todd: they are. Hey, I’m all for, I’m not, I’m not all for the Adam Ant one.

[00:18:37] Todd: I’m all there for the John Cassani one, for the Judy Cassani one. Right. I’m on board. And the, and the college

[00:18:42] Cathy: one.

[00:18:43] Todd: That’s. No, that’s

[00:18:44] Cathy: stupid. No, it’s not. Because you’re promoting your kid’s school. Like this is where, and I think there’s like a sense of pride that I have. And then there’s also, I think I’m demonstrating to my kids that I have a sense of pride about their school.

[00:18:56] Cathy: Right? I’m on, I’m on board. I’m, I’m anchoring up and I’m a

[00:18:59] Todd: Hawkeye. Go Hawks. On Iowa. Go Hawks. Right. Alright, um, we’re gonna pivot. You okay with pivoting?

[00:19:06] Cathy: Sure. Are you done complaining? Your tournament a bad? Yes, I’m done complaining. I think my earphone went out. No, it’s fine. It is? Yeah. Can you still hear me?

[00:19:13] Cathy: Yeah. Okay.

[00:19:14] Todd: Um, so, I’m gonna play some clips. Alright. This one is cause you get mad at me when I play long clips. This one’s oh boy, this is Almost two minutes long. Uh, but it’s good. It’s Devorah Heitner. Okay. Who is launching our

[00:19:27] Cathy: conference. Yeah, she’s starting at one o’clock on

[00:19:30] Todd: Friday. So this is just a little bit from Devorah.

[00:19:32] Todd: I think you or I start and then she jumps in. Okay. Oh. Hold on. Everybody pause. I’m gonna cut that out. Options. Playback. Okay. Let’s try this again. Shall we?

[00:19:56] Cathy: You’re hearing about it so you don’t have to, like in your book, [00:20:00] Debora, you had the language. Mentoring, not monitoring. Is that right? So it’s like the hope is, and I think this is what Todd’s alluding to with our girls, is that I don’t really feel the need to check their texts because we have so many conversations about Oh my gosh, I just said something and someone thought I was being a jerk and they wrote this back.

[00:20:18] Cathy: What should I write? You know, like we’re talking about it. We’re, so I like explain that mentoring. I mean mentoring is a lot more work than monitoring and I think for an early phone user and some people are now getting their kids phones at 10 or 11, it might be about sitting down with them once a week and like looking at that group text with them, especially if they want you to look at it.

[00:20:35] Cathy: Cause sometimes they’re like, oh my gosh, this group text, I don’t know what to do, but it also might be just talking about it. And you’ll never see their friends in the same way if you read the group text. So I, I mean, I would say like stay out of it if you possibly can, because you may not look at their friends in the, with the same sort of rose colored glasses.

[00:20:50] Cathy: It might be more pleasant for you not to see everything that gets said, especially in middle school. And I think that’s, that’s an important piece of it is preserving not just their privacy, but their friends privacy. I mean, that said, I think if kids are struggling, you know, having them show you their phone or show you some of the conversations can be helpful.

[00:21:07] Cathy: Um, but as they get older, you really do want them to handle things more independently and you don’t want to be learning about things this way because it’s not a good way to know what’s going on and the context is missing. So a lot of times you can see something that might really concern you as a parent, but you’re not going to really understand where it’s coming from or to have the context.

[00:21:24] Cathy: So it’s really is better to talk to kids about their social experiences and give them strategies. Like if the group text is really toxic, you have some options. You can leave, you can go directly to the person who’s not being nice and. Talk to them privately without calling them out in front of everyone.

[00:21:39] Cathy: You can talk to the person who’s being targeted and find some solidarity with them. You can take a break. That’s a good start, right? Excellent. Yes. I think that was a really, um, a great discussion. Yeah, and I agree so much with Dvorak about the sometimes you read something and it’s out of context. You don’t have all the [00:22:00] information.

[00:22:00] Cathy: You don’t know the private jokes that are going on. Like, I think about this all the time. Like, my kids, you have my phone a lot. My kids have my phone a lot. I’m not hiding anything. But sometimes I’m like, if they were to read some of the group chats I have with my college friends, they’d be like, what are you talking about?

[00:22:15] Cathy: Because there’s so many inside jokes and so many, like, things that we say to each other that it may not translate very well and there may be some confusion. So I think we have to give that same understanding to our kids, is that we don’t know what came before, we don’t know. So, just looking at their stuff without engaging them in that conversation.

[00:22:35] Cathy: Just kind of hiding that we’re looking at their stuff. It’s almost like reading their diary without telling them, you know, going old school. Instead, it’s an ongoing conversation. And like Devorah said, if you have a phone contract with your kids or some kind of agreement that you made that every week you look at your texts together, then that’s the plan you made.

[00:22:53] Cathy: You know, your kids are in the know. As long as it’s up front, right? As long as it’s up front,

[00:22:56] Todd: that’s the key. Yeah. So, and that, I think we talked, To Devorah for a good hour and a half. It was a long interview. It was a really long interview. But she’s just really

[00:23:04] Cathy: good, so. Yeah, and the thing I love about Devorah, and I’ll say this, you know, at the conference, and by the way, the conference is January 26th, 27th, and like Todd said, Devorah is our first speaker at one o’clock on Friday, is that.

[00:23:16] Cathy: What I love about her is she has all the knowledge, she does all the research, you know, this is where her doctorate was, you know, this is what she focused on, like, and this is what she continues to learn about and, um, work with schools and families around this. And so she has all the information that can be daunting, but she’s also very chill about it.

[00:23:36] Cathy: She’s also very, like, aligned with her kid about it. Like, she’s, she’s aligned with, she’s not. She doesn’t put out any kind of message of fear, which I really appreciate because that doesn’t help, you know, like when when I read things or see things where people are like, this is going to be really bad. And what are we going to do?

[00:23:53] Cathy: What do you do with that information? Yeah, you know, so I like D’Vorah’s message and I like the way she Her first book

[00:23:59] Todd: was ScreenWise, [00:24:00] Helping Kids Thrive and Survive in Their Digital World, and the second one that we interviewed her was Growing Up in Public. So, all right, so that’s speaker number one.

[00:24:09] Todd: We’re going over to Michelle Eichert. You ready? I am. Do you want to say anything about her before we introduce her? No,

[00:24:13] Cathy: just that I’m so excited that she’s coming in for the conference. I actually said to her when we did this interview that she was the first person I thought of when we decided to have this conference.

[00:24:21] Cathy: There you go. 21, um, and a senior in college. Had braces for six years growing up. It was a long period. Of wearing braces and, and, you know, you pay your flat fee. It was a lot of money, but then like all the trips to the 15 minute check ins and the broken wire. And like, it was a huge investment of money and time and energy and everything else.

[00:24:45] Cathy: And so after the six years, he gets his braces off and he was so happy to be done with it, understandably so, that he wanted.

[00:24:53] Todd: Um, real quick. Um, I think we’re fine. Uh, our power just went out in our house. Um, Michelle’s But did it? Cause look at this. Look at what? These lights are still on. Uh, they’re on battery.

[00:25:06] Todd: Oh. Um, so anyways, let’s just roll with it. Why did our power go out? I don’t know, but I don’t want to try to unproduce this. Okay. Um, Michelle’s talking about her own son. Anything else

[00:25:17] Cathy: in his mouth and he refused to wear his retainer and right. I mean, moms in the audience were like, like gasping and holding their mouths and like, oh no, be done.

[00:25:30] Cathy: And I told them, of course, I wanted him to wear his retainer was so upsetting to me that he wouldn’t wear the dumb retainer and I tried to explain it to him and I, I could have gone several ways I could have. threatened him, I could have been like, listen, for all we’ve done to get these teeth straight, you’re not going out with friends on the weekend.

[00:25:50] Cathy: You give me your phone right now until you promise me you’re wearing that retainer every second. And he would have hated me, right? We would have locked horns and he would have hated me. Um, I could have [00:26:00] tried bribing him. There are a million things I could have done. Ultimately, I just said to him, hey, all right, I’ve done what I can do.

[00:26:07] Cathy: It’s in your hands now. Um, understand that if you, if your teeth shift, if anything changes, that’s, that’s, goes into your court. Like, you’ll have to figure that out later. Um, and we had a very happy relationship as his teeth shifted, you know, and, um, and they’re not bad, but like, he’ll make a decision, like, he’s bothered by them.

[00:26:28] Cathy: He’s bothered by them. So, all right.

[00:26:29] Todd: So that’s a good stopping point. I love that story. I know you do, because it’s such a, uh, I could so easily see myself doing the short term thing, which is, we paid for this. You’re going to wear these whether you like it or not. In other words, not trusting your kids’ own intuition, not letting them make their own mistakes.

[00:26:53] Todd: Um, and I just think it’s, and it’s. Serious but not too serious.

[00:26:58] Cathy: Well, and I don’t even think it’s intuition. It’s just decision making. Because intuition is like they have a gut instinct about something and that they’re just choosing to not wear their retainer. Right. So I think it’s just the ability Especially when our kids become adults or they’re ready to make those adult decisions to recognize if this is your choice, then these are the consequences.

[00:27:19] Cathy: Yeah. And, and there are many things that, you know, when we say those kinds of things, a lot of people are like, but what if my kid gets hurt? Or what if, you know, there’s a lot of what if, what if, but with teeth, no one’s getting hurt.

[00:27:32] Todd: Well, that’s what I think. Like I think of irreversible stuff. Yes. Things you don’t want your kids to screw up on.

[00:27:36] Todd: Tattoos. Yes. Pregnancies. Right. Drunk driving. Right. Like, this is a few notches below that. Sure. But it’s not like inconsequential either. So I just think it’s got that nice, it’s that nice Is anything

[00:27:48] Cathy: inconsequential? Like, there’s a consequence for every choice. A class you take, a class you don’t take, a test you fail, a test,

[00:27:54] Todd: you know, like Well, I’m just thinking of like me getting on my kid’s case for being five minutes late for us going to [00:28:00] Right.

[00:28:00] Todd: Like

[00:28:00] Cathy: Yeah, I get what you’re saying. So yeah, I think that the reason that you and I both enjoy that story is because it’s a perfect example of what are you going to choose, um, forcing an issue or connection. And I know That some people, Michelle started that story by saying, I, I say this at talks and people gasp, you know, like, how could you allow that to happen?

[00:28:26] Cathy: You know, like a lot of like, how did you deal with that? You know? And I think what she’s trying to say is that’s my point is I have to make a decision at certain points in time and decide whether I’m going to focus on my kids doing exactly what I tell them to do every step of the way, or if I’m going to let them own their lives and stay connected to them.

[00:28:46] Cathy: That’s, that’s a very, and I think we’re actually doing that throughout their lives. I think even when our kids are five years old and deciding what to wear to school, are we going to force an issue because we think they need to look cute or beautiful or, or handsome or whatever? Or are we going to say, go out in the world and be you and see how you can navigate that and what feels right to you and what.

[00:29:09] Cathy: Clothes. I still, my middle daughter says to me all the time, like she’ll be like, you know what I’m so glad you did is you never told me what to wear. She brings it up all the time. Like she’s 19 years old. And it’s funny because, you know, a sense of style is not always about being flashy or being a fashionista.

[00:29:25] Cathy: It’s just knowing who you are. That’s really all it is. And she’s been very vocally grateful for that.

[00:29:31] Todd: Well, and, uh, this is kind of, uh, a personal story that doesn’t quite fit, but I’m going to say it anyways. I remember when JC was born, we’re talking about parenting because we’re brand new parents, right?

[00:29:43] Todd: And I remember having some frustration towards my mom for not forcing me to play the guitar. No, it was piano. No, no, it was guitar. Actually, she got me a guitar and what she’s like, Oh, I’ll have you, [00:30:00] I’ll, I’ll give you lessons if you want them. And I never asked for them. And now I just laugh at myself, like, because at the time I was like, no, your parents are there to make you do stuff that you don’t, that you don’t want to do, but in the end you’ll be happy for it.

[00:30:14] Todd: Right. And I would have loved to be really good at the guitar right now, but the bottom line is If I was doing it because my mom forced me to, that’s not a good thing. So this is like Zen Parenting 101 stuff, but it’s like an honest thought I had when our oldest daughter was like six months old. I’m like, Mom, I wish you would have forced me to keep playing, stay with the guitar.

[00:30:34] Todd: Um, so anyways, I’m just picturing this. This young man, Michelle’s son, being like, Mom, I wish you would have forced me to keep that retainer in. Right. You

[00:30:43] Cathy: know? Well, and there’s a lot of things we have to, you know, pick our battles as parents. You know, there’s some things we have to, I’m putting this in air quotes, force.

[00:30:50] Cathy: You, you have to go to school. You have to take the bus. You know, you have to get a job. You have to do some, there are things that we have to have a really strict line about. But there are some things that it’s, that’s not where we. We don’t belong in certain areas. And, and I also think that we, cause I always kind of get a bigger perspective on this.

[00:31:12] Cathy: Like, you know, you even saying to your mom, which I know you don’t feel this way anymore, but you should have made me play guitar. Why? Like, what do you believe would have happened? You have some kind of image or belief system that you’d be happier. Cooler, more, you know, connected to something and that’s not necessarily true.

[00:31:28] Cathy: Like maybe I also know kids, I, you know, thinking of one in particular that plays the guitar so phenomenally well and he sometimes goes years without picking it up. So playing the guitar doesn’t really mean anything. I mean it can, especially if you want to be in a band or it can, but you know, sweetie, I love you so much and I think you’re very talented in many areas, but I’ve never heard you.

[00:31:51] Cathy: Like, you’ve never been, like, a musically inclined person. No! Oh! I mean, what I mean is, like, you’ve never seemed to be someone who’s like, I wish I could just [00:32:00] sit down and play the piano or whatever.

[00:32:03] Todd: Um, I found, can I play that part of Owen playing the guitar on YouTube? Sure! So, we have this, we have these wonderful neighbors, Jerry and Noreen, and they have two children, Owen and Aaron.

[00:32:17] Todd: And how old was Owen when he He was in fifth grade. He was in fifth grade. So think of the fifth grade talent shifts, right? It’s like clunky and not that well produced. My kids are just doing their thing. Just doing it. And then this is Owen O’Keefe starting, starting the production.

[00:32:41] Cathy: He’s playing eruption.

[00:32:59] Todd: Okay, stop there. Everybody was like, what? What is happening? First

[00:33:04] Cathy: of all, he started the talent show. Yeah. Which is Should have ended. Ended. I know. Mistake. And then people were kind of like, they didn’t even know what to do because everyone’s

[00:33:12] Todd: like, it’s a kid in fifth grade. Yeah. I thought he was pretending to play because it was so good.

[00:33:17] Todd: I know. And hopefully the audio comes through because it’s kind of like I got a YouTube clip that was Well,

[00:33:22] Cathy: and my point is, is, I mean, if it’d be Owen or anybody else, he’s, that’s how good he is. And now he’s an adult. And so you can imagine, um, but it’s not like, that’s not like the end all be all of his life.

[00:33:32] Cathy: Like we have all these different aspects of our life. And, and if you would have done this thing, maybe you wouldn’t have played baseball. Yeah. Maybe you wouldn’t have gone to school at the place you did. I just remember my mom’s

[00:33:43] Todd: reaction. She’s like,

[00:33:43] Cathy: Oh, come on. Don’t blame me. Your mom was probably like, Oh, shut up.

[00:33:47] Todd: She was like, exhaustion, like, yeah, just be like, be quiet. Right. Oh, by the way, before we move on to the next one, uh, Michelle Eichard is going to talk Saturday afternoon.

[00:33:59] Cathy: She, so at the [00:34:00] conference, she’s on Saturday in the

[00:34:02] Todd: afternoon. Um, and she wrote three books, middle school makeovers. 14 talks by age 14 and her latest, which is 8 setbacks that can make a child a success.

[00:34:12] Todd: What to do and what to say to turn failures into character building moments. Awesome. All right. So now we’re going over to a guy named John Duffy and I don’t know what we’re talking about here, but we’ll figure it out. But the

[00:34:24] Cathy: same person. Yeah. And you’re, and you’re modeling something there, right? You’re modeling this consistency and integrity for your kids.

[00:34:31] Cathy: And you have to remember that too. Like that’s the biggest part of parenting. The thing, the messages your kids get aren’t going to be from what you say. They’re going to be from what you do. That’s such, that feels like such kind of like pablum, but that’s just true. Um, and. Uh, and the other thing your kids are going to notice is if you’re different with them than you used to be.

[00:34:51] Cathy: In other words, like as they cross into this scary plane of adolescence or the tween years or whatever, if you suddenly are different with them, if you’re more kind of like hands on and demanding or adversarial, which happens all the time, you know, because you’re right. We parents, we have a lot of identities to juggle and this is.

[00:35:10] Cathy: It’s hard to parent now. It’s harder than I think than it’s ever been. And so our own anxieties are kind of at the fore. And um, and it’s so hard to keep that in check, but we have to figure out ways to do that because our kids are already anxious and they can’t. They can’t handle ours as well, you know what I mean?

[00:35:29] Cathy: So we can’t just pass that down. We have to kind of do some kind of cut off in that delivery

[00:35:33] Todd: system. So here’s a second commandment according to Dr. John Duffy. And I’m just making that language up. It doesn’t say that in the books, but these are the bullet points. It’s on stone tablets, so it’s fair. So parents, listen up.

[00:35:46] Todd: This is good advice. Pump up the balance in the emotional bank account you maintain with your child so that your words carry weight. What does that mean? So, um, I, I, We don’t have time for him to go through all that, but it was a nice little piece from Dr.

[00:35:58] Cathy: Duffy. Yeah, and, [00:36:00] um, John is speaking, um, actually he and Michelle both are speaking twice on Saturday because they each have their own time.

[00:36:07] Cathy: And then they’re doing a discussion, uh, panel with Todd and I. Yeah. So, uh, Michelle and John will both be talking on Saturday. And, um, I learned, I just learned a new word from John. I obviously am listening to this again. Pablum. Yeah. I didn’t know that word. What’s up with smarty farty? I know it means bland or insipid intellectual fare.

[00:36:26] Cathy: So it means like naive, right? So I’m going to start using that word. Thank you, John. I’m not because nobody knows that word. Well, yes. When he said it, it blended very nice. It didn’t feel like it was out of. You know, sometimes when people are using big words, but he flowed with that. So I’m gonna use it. Um, so, John has a new book out called Rescuing Our Sons.

[00:36:44] Cathy: Um, so, especially if you have a son, I think his talk will be around all teenagers, but he has a special focus right now on boys and raising boys. So, um, I highly recommend you come hear him speak and buy that book.

[00:36:59] Todd: Um, did you say the name of the book? Rescuing Our Sons. And his other two books are Parenting the New Teen in the Age of Anxiety and his first one, which I also adored, which is the Available Parent.

[00:37:11] Todd: Yeah. Um, yeah. So there’s Dr. John Duffy. All right. Are you ready for Dr. Alexander Solomon? I sure am. All right. Let’s see what she has to say.

[00:37:21] Cathy: You know who the biggest aha I had about this was a few years ago reading Soulmates by Thomas Moore. And you know, I, I think as therapists, it gets real, as couples therapists, it gets really tempting just to get a problem focused, problem solution, fix.

[00:37:38] Cathy: kind of aspect going, right? People come in because they want their stuff fixed. And Thomas Moore had this beautiful way of talking about like the cyclical nature of every, of nature, right? That everything is cycles. And so why would we act as if our marriages, our intimate relationships are linear destination focus kinds of things and to kind of be fascinated by the cycles and the cyclical nature of [00:38:00] it rather than frustrated that here we go again.

[00:38:02] Cathy: And I think the My goal is when we come around again, we come around with a little more insight, a little more curiosity, a little more self compassion, a little more empathy. But I know I feel real sure that Todd and I, my Todd, and I will be kind of going through the same stuff when we’re 75, you know, and just different, wearing different, like you said, different pants.

[00:38:22] Cathy: And I feel like I’m more humble with that. I’m more humored by it than I used to be. You know, I think I’ve sort of surrendered to. to that cyclical nature of it, but, um, yeah, that’s a, that’s a paradigm shift. I think we’re used to, I think, especially as Americans, problem solving, fix it, like roll up your sleeves and fix it.

[00:38:41] Cathy: Get it done. I will never be that way again. I will never do that. I’ll pass that aside over done. Now I’m this healed person.

[00:38:48] Todd: Right. So that’s Dr. Alexander Solomon. I love that

[00:38:50] Cathy: piece. Me too. She is speaking Friday night. She’s, um, kind of our keynote speaker on Friday night. Uh, Todd Nyer are talking at six.

[00:39:00] Cathy: Dr. Solomon’s talking at seven. And then there’s a deep dive with Shefali, uh, Dr. Shefali at eight. Shefali is also talking Saturday morning. She’s doing her keynote, but she’s also offering a deep dive on Friday. So I loved that. And, and it’s funny, Todd, I was thinking about, uh, about a week ago. You and I were having a discussion about something that I said, I can’t believe we’re having this discussion because I feel like we like went through this 20 years ago.

[00:39:25] Cathy: Yeah. And, and it’s true about cycles. Like, I think she’s talking about, there’s many levels to cycles. There’s like, just nature, like we move in and out of seasons in our marriage, you know, like. You know, there’s the beginning and then there’s when you have kids and then there’s, you know, when you start to, there’s all sorts of levels where you’re closer or more distant and that’s just kind of the way that marriage goes.

[00:39:47] Cathy: That’s relationships. But then there’s also like cycles of certain issues or conversations that always seem to come up. That cycle

[00:39:55] Todd: back. As much as I wish that wasn’t the case. I

[00:39:58] Cathy: know, me too, and [00:40:00] you know sometimes when I am the one who often bring, I am the one who brings these things out most of the time, and I always like to start by saying to Todd, and I don’t say this in a You know, I say this in a way where my tone is clear, and I’m not trying to like, you know, make him feel bad.

[00:40:15] Cathy: But I’m like, I don’t like feeling bad about this. Like, I’m not bringing up this issue to like start a fight or win a fight. I am just feeling this way again, and, and I have to bring it to our attention because we obviously need to re resolve it. And like Dr. Solomon says, resolve it. for this moment. It may not be resolved for life, but there’s a way that this is hitting me right now where I need to say something or else I’m going to have some kind of resentment or annoyance or passive aggressiveness, um, you know, about what’s happening here.

[00:40:48] Todd: So, well, and one thing I will say in our personal Relationship and how you and I are connected and sometimes get disconnected because human relationships have plenty of disconnection is you will mostly when you have, when you know we’re about to engage in a tougher conversation, there’s a rupture. I did something.

[00:41:07] Todd: I said something. You did something. You said something, whatever. You also started out by saying, I know you love me. I know you. And you might be like, yeah, whatever, like, honestly, that is super helpful to me because as I’m learning more about ruptures, that we have these disconnecting types, and one of the types is called, um, like a seeker, or a golden retriever, and when you get mad, I sometimes want to like do anything I can to nuzzle myself into your good graces, and it’s a really disempowering position for me, it’s really probably unattractive for you, but.

[00:41:43] Cathy: Unattractive or just like transparent. Transparent.

[00:41:46] Todd: But here’s the thing, what’s underneath that golden retriever that I show up as, and I know it’s probably some childhood ones that I haven’t quite figured out, it’s I’m worried that you are no longer loving me. Yeah. Even when, so the fact that you know that that [00:42:00] my disconnector type is golden retriever, you have learned to help me when I’m in the back of my brain to help settle my nervous system down with that.

[00:42:11] Todd: Now, it doesn’t always help that much because there’s still a part of me is like, sorry, reptilian brain is going to overwrite anything Kathy just said to you. Yeah. And I still think that there is a piece of you that doesn’t love me. Yeah. Um, But it certainly doesn’t hurt and sometimes it helps. And that’s the thing.

[00:42:27] Todd: If we can figure out each other’s disconnecting types, and maybe we’ll go over them real quick here, just so everybody can kind of know what I’m talking about. It really, I think there’s some huge benefits to us knowing how we disconnect

[00:42:40] Cathy: from one another. Yeah, and it’s interesting. That’s very interesting to me.

[00:42:43] Cathy: I’m glad that you said that because really why I say, just so you know, I know you love me. It’s not about that because that’s often when I tell you something that’s bothering me, you’re, you don’t necessarily say, but I love you. But there, that’s really how the conversation goes. Like, don’t you see all these ways I’m loving you?

[00:43:00] Cathy: And, and so I’m trying to kind of put that conversation to the side so we can just get to the point that I’m trying to make, which is, this is not about love. This is about our interaction, or this is about what you forgot. which is this is

[00:43:15] Todd: important to me or whatever. How I feel about what, how you forgot to do.

[00:43:19] Cathy: Yes. Like that’s the thing, everybody. Like when you’re upset with your child, when your child’s upset with you, when you’re upset with your partner, your mom, your best friend, it doesn’t mean you don’t love them. It’s actually quite the opposite. Your love is what’s driving this conflict. Because you wouldn’t feel this way unless this person was extraordinarily important to you.

[00:43:37] Cathy: And so having an argument with somebody that you love is. going to be a million times more common than having an argument with someone that you don’t really care what they think. Yeah. So it’s, that’s the thing with our kids is, um, we don’t want to do the, I love you, but that’s not going to do it. Um, it’s about when we’re going to.

[00:43:56] Cathy: You know, just so our partner feels, and you know, and you’re [00:44:00] obviously letting me know how that sits with you, that you, it settles you a little bit. Yeah. And, but for some people, if they have a partner who has a different kind of disconnecting style, saying, I know you love me, may not work. Well,

[00:44:12] Todd: and real quickly, because I’m about to lead a big piece on a men’s weekend about these disconnector types.

[00:44:16] Todd: So, I think. You know, it’s the fight, flight, freeze, and I think fawn, so that would be the fawn, right? Yeah. Fawning. You’re fawning, yeah. So the other ones, as it’s been taught to me in the Getting to Zero book by Jason Gaddis, is the porcupine. So think of a porcupine that raises his quills to protect himself.

[00:44:33] Todd: He’s the one that gets inflated, he’s the one that gets angry a lot. Fight, right? And then you had the hermit crab, which is the one that goes inward. So I think that would be the freeze, right? You don’t get out of dodge. You stay there, but you just freeze up. Yeah, I

[00:44:45] Cathy: would say that. And I’m probably most like

[00:44:47] Todd: that.

[00:44:47] Todd: Yes. And that is your disconnector type. Now we all have all four of these. Uh, but there’s usually one dominant one, or one that you usually go to, depending on who you’re in relationship with. And then the last one is the, uh, feral cat, which is the one that just gets out

[00:45:01] Cathy: of dodge. And that’s flight. Flight.

[00:45:03] Cathy: And then, like you said, the golden retriever is fawn. Yeah. So, yeah, they’re all, like, Jason’s using certain language, but it’s really connected to the language that we’ve always known about, um. Defense mechanisms. Yeah, defense mechanisms, and what we do. And it’s very unconscious, everybody. These are, you We’re not saying, hey, I think I’m going to become a porcupine or fight right now.

[00:45:21] Cathy: It’s something we learned it has in maybe our, our, our family of origin. It could be connected to our personality type. It could be connected to how we’re feeling that day. Um, if we already are feeling attacked, maybe we then come back with attack. Um, I tend to freeze first because I have to like process what’s happening.

[00:45:41] Cathy: I get shut down really quickly where I’m like, wait, what’s happening? And, um, And sometimes then that is why historically I’ve gotten passive aggressive because I don’t know how to deal with what I’m feeling, like, I’ll be like, I’m just mad.

[00:45:56] Todd: So when you say to me, I [00:46:00] know that you love me, that settles my nervous system a bit.

[00:46:03] Todd: What is something I can say or do for you when you’re in your Flight or your freeze mode. Is there anything that I can Well,

[00:46:11] Cathy: during that

[00:46:12] Todd: conversation? Yeah, like the what you do for me in the beginning of a difficult conversation is you reinforce your love for me, right? I just wonder how I can reciprocate that knowing your disconnector type.

[00:46:25] Todd: I would

[00:46:25] Cathy: say I get, I would say what I would love is if you said something like, I get that something happened that is really bothering you. Because what I need is the validation rather than the defensiveness. Not validation of I’m right. It’s not about you’re wrong, I’m right. It’s about something happened that really bothered you.

[00:46:47] Cathy: And I want to hear what that is. And, and some of the time you’re like, that’s not what I said or meant at all. And sometimes you’re like, yeah, I totally said that. And I realized how that came across.

[00:47:00] Todd: I would say, you know, I don’t know what the words would be, but like, yeah, that makes sense that why that this.

[00:47:05] Cathy: Yes. And that’s very helpful. And sometimes you can’t do that right away. And historically we’ve had to spend a lot of time with you being like, but look at what I did and look at what I’ve done and look at I’m this person. I’m not that person. You have to like constantly explain. And when I say this, I know you’ll know what I mean.

[00:47:19] Cathy: You have to tell me what a good person you are. And I’m always like, I know you’re a good person. This has nothing to do with. And I

[00:47:26] Todd: don’t think this is a Todd thing. I think this is a human being thing, but I think it’s super hard not to take a posture of defensiveness. Like, Oh, Todd, how come you’re doing this?

[00:47:37] Todd: Like, yeah, but what about these other things I’m doing? Like it’s just human nature to try to defend one’s position and I am just trying to figure out how to. Be conscious enough to be curious enough and not take that posture.

[00:47:52] Cathy: I think anytime someone’s bringing something up to you that you don’t know you did, you’re going to be taken by surprise.

[00:47:59] Cathy: And you’re [00:48:00] going to be like, or most of the time, I think a lot of people know exactly what happened. You know what I mean? And honestly, the last conversation we had, I think part of the reason I was annoyed is I knew you knew. That I was bothered, and I wish you would have brought

[00:48:13] Todd: it up. I didn’t know for certain.

[00:48:16] Todd: I had a, I had a guess. I did check in with you a few times. You did, but

[00:48:20] Cathy: you check in and make me do the work. Right. Why don’t you say, Kathy, I know you’re annoyed about what happened

[00:48:27] Todd: at lunch. And the reason it is, is because I honestly didn’t know. I mean, if I were to have to say, okay, Todd, write five things down on why you think Kathy’s in a grumpy mood.

[00:48:37] Todd: That would probably be. The first thing, honestly. Right,

[00:48:41] Cathy: so if I’m, so that’s kind of what I’m asking. We’re like, sorry everybody, we’re kind of going through this stuff. But there’s

[00:48:45] Todd: times when you are just quiet. Right, that’s true. So I think there’s a, there’s the manipulated part of me that wants to hope that, oh, you’re just in a quiet mode.

[00:48:55] Todd: Well, and

[00:48:55] Cathy: that’s kind of the thing, is I think that kind of, the point I’m trying to make is that You know, 92 percent of the time, I’m the one who brings up whatever is unspoken, right? If you’re annoyed at me, if I’m annoyed at you, I’m the one who brings it up. So what I would have appreciated in that time is, because I knew it was pretty obvious, that for you to just say, even if you’re unsure, did that bother you?

[00:49:16] Cathy: Because you seem to be different from that time, rather than, are you okay? Because then what you’re asking me to do is do all the legwork and say, ah, okay. Here’s what it is instead of just you pull me aside and say, I can tell that bugged you. And then we could have just dealt with it because it wasn’t a big deal, everybody, by the way, it wasn’t a big deal.

[00:49:36] Cathy: It was that I had to wait 24 hours to say, okay, let’s get back to that conversation because life went on and our kids were around and blah, blah, blah. We couldn’t have the conversation, but

[00:49:47] Todd: that’s the other thing, timing of repair. Because we can’t, we can’t, when you’re a parent, we can’t always repair right away.

[00:49:54] Todd: It probably wouldn’t be a bad thing. They

[00:49:56] Cathy: were walking back and forth while we were repairing, remember? Yeah. We were sitting at the table. [00:50:00] Yeah. And they were coming in and out. Like, I think they’re used to us having deep conversations, but there were pieces of it that we needed to have by ourselves.

[00:50:07] Cathy: Right, yeah. And

[00:50:09] Todd: It’s just that variable of having them there while we’re repairing is really tough. I so agree. Because we, or you, feel their energy. Yes. Because they’re feeling uncomfortable because mom and dad are having a repair or whatever. So it’s just easier when they’re not there. It is. But it’s not good

[00:50:24] Cathy: modeling.

[00:50:26] Cathy: Right, and that’s why we continue, even when they come in the door, because, again, we don’t yell, we’re just like, well, here’s what I thought, and here’s what you said, and I think that the most important thing about these conversations we have is, you know, you were just asking that question, my earphone went out, did yours too?

[00:50:42] Cathy: No, mine

[00:50:42] Todd: are good, so let’s just assume

[00:50:43] Cathy: we’re good. Okay, so The, the thing that I am often looking for, because you’re like, what could I do, is that you’re doing as much legwork as I am, which is you’re recognizing when I go down. You’re recognizing when you say something where I have a reaction, rather than me always having to say, hey, and like you said, you’re like hoping, praying that it’s okay.

[00:51:06] Todd: Hoping that that’s not. What it was.

[00:51:09] Cathy: And I want you to risk something. Yeah. I want you to take a moment and say, I’m going to risk this moment. Like in, uh, you’re not losing me by the way, but in Taylor Swift’s song, you’re losing me. You’re not. Um, I know you love me, see how I’m doing, but there’s just this great bridge where she’s like, do something, you know, risk something.

[00:51:31] Cathy: It’s like a great, uh, like it’s probably my favorite. If you can believe this, it might be my favorite bridge. of Taylor Swift’s. No kidding. Yeah, and that’s saying a lot because it’s, it just, I love the song because it’s kind of like a quiet, slow burn song and then all of a sudden it goes to the bridge. I

[00:51:53] Todd: think I found it.

[00:51:54] Todd: Did you find the middle? This is named Taylor Swift, You’re Losing Me, Wouldn’t Marry Me, Either Bridge. Uh [00:52:00] huh. One hour loop. One hour loop. So let’s see if this works. And all I

[00:52:07] Cathy: know is I tried to be the bravest soldier fighting in all of your army. Frontlines, don’t you ignore me. I’m the best thing at this party.

[00:52:18] Cathy: I’m the best thing at this party. And I wouldn’t marry me either.

[00:52:26] Cathy: Only wanted you to see her and they can do something. Say something, something, something, something. But

[00:52:49] Cathy: isn’t that great?

[00:52:51] Todd: Yeah, I, I, I need to listen to it again. I mean the second half I totally, uh, got. The first half I didn’t quite know what was going on there. But, um, yeah. Just

[00:53:01] Cathy: that she’s working her ass off to keep this relationship together. And she’s trying to point things out and she’s dealing with this, like, you know, that things are changing because at the beginning of the song she’s talking about how are we’re sick and you’re trying to say that I’m not sick like my face is gray and you’re not even noticing it and I’m doing all this legwork and I want you to risk something and ask a hard question and be willing to lose something which might be your ego where you have to actually own piece of this but she’s not saying it’s all your fault yeah she’s just saying help me Like, it’s just a great, that bridge is just amazing.

[00:53:37] Cathy: So anyway.

[00:53:38] Todd: Well, uh, there’s a one hour, uh, loop on that bridge alone. Who was the guy she’s talking about? Do you know? Joe. Oh. Yeah. So Joe didn’t say anything or do anything.

[00:53:50] Cathy: And Jack Antonoff said that, that he posted something that she wrote that song in December of 2021. So it gave a lot of, you know, people who know a lot about Taylor’s [00:54:00] life, some information This breakup may have been a long time coming.

[00:54:03] Cathy: And again, we’re not supposed to listen to Taylor’s music and just focus on her life. We’re supposed to focus on our own. So I don’t want to, you know, I don’t want to like make it all about her. But if with the knowledge we tend to have about Taylor, it was most likely

[00:54:17] Todd: Joe. So in conclusion, I do want to, I wonder if you’re feeling in a risk taking type mood because I did not.

[00:54:24] Todd: Um, try to find a clip for Shefali, but I just pulled up the podcast that we did with her. Well,

[00:54:29] Cathy: you know what? We did. We’ve posted that last week. That whole podcast with Shefali. So I feel like if you, if you want to hear our interview with Shefali about the parenting map. You can just go back a week. It was during the holidays.

[00:54:43] Cathy: Yeah, two weeks ago. And you can listen to that interview. And, you know, as I was saying, she’s going to be, I was just talking with her today about her books. She’s bringing very, very, very many books. Um, and people who are doing her deep dive get a free book of the Parenting Map. But anyway, She is doing the deep dive on Friday night, the 26th, and she’s also doing a keynote on the morning of the 27th.

[00:55:05] Cathy: So you’ll get some really, like Todd and I were just talking at lunch about how this conference, we made it smaller this year, meaning we got a more intimate setting and it’s, it’s still, we just are in love with the place we’re doing it, but how great it is that you get to like interact with all of these speakers.

[00:55:23] Cathy: Like this is really a wonderful opportunity. Um, it doesn’t matter how old your kids are because if you’re Everyone falls into this category, even if you don’t have teens now, you’re going to at some point or pre adolescence. And even if your teens are now in their 20s, we’re talking about adult children.

[00:55:39] Cathy: So, no matter where you are, you’re going to get something out of this. Tickets

[00:55:44] Todd: going fast, so, um, you can, uh, register for the conference on, um, in the show notes. Yeah. Just scroll. Or

[00:55:51] Cathy: zenparentingradio. com. Either one. You can get there. Anything else? I think that’s good and Cameron wants to see us because all the lights are out in the house.

[00:55:58] Cathy: Thanks. Bye. I dunno if you can [00:56:00] tell if you’re watching on YouTube, but we’re in the dark, so she’s probably wondering

[00:56:03] Todd: why. Okay. Uh, I’m gonna play our music and say, Hey everybody, see you at the conference. If not later. Well, we

[00:56:13] Cathy: still have a show next week. Yeah, we have a few more shows before the conference.

[00:56:16] Cathy: Yeah, we do.

[00:56:17] Todd: And keep trucking for goodness sakes. Bye.