Todd and Cathy discuss gender norms and explore ways to validate, acknowledge, and challenge them. They also dive into the comedy of Nate Bargatze, highlighting its observational nature that prompts thought and reflection.

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Time Stamps

(00:00:00) Introduction (Football)
(00:08:05) Gender Norms

(00:15:00) Fantasy trophy
(00:18:58) Golden Tee *
(00:24:48) Rolling towels

(00:27:20) Zen Parenting 2024 Conference

(00:27:48) Team Zen Circle

(00:42:15) Todd’s toe nails *
(00:51:11) Masculinity *

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Gender Norms- Truth or Fiction?

In this episode of the Zen Parenting Radio podcast, hosts Todd and Cathy Adams engage in a thought-provoking discussion on gender norms and societal expectations. The conversation is sparked by Todd’s humorous take on a football play, leading to a broader exploration of gender roles, emotional expression, parenting responsibilities, and societal expectations. This article synthesizes the most salient points from different segments of the podcast, providing valuable insights into the complexities of navigating and challenging gender norms.

The hosts kick off the episode by reflecting on the common perception that infant boys are more emotionally expressive than girls. However, Todd observes that this dynamic seems to shift as children enter adolescence. This observation prompts a broader exploration of the challenges of raising emotionally literate boys and the evolving emotional landscape as children grow. The discussion highlights the importance of fostering emotional intelligence in boys and challenging societal expectations around their emotional expression.

Cathy and Todd delve into the societal and cultural expectations regarding the emotional expression of boys. Cathy points out the prevalent pressure for boys to exhibit stoicism and repress emotions, both in home environments and external settings like schools and sports groups. Todd’s experience at a guys’ weekend, filled with activities like golf and competition, serves as an example of the societal norms associated with masculinity. This stands in contrast to Cathy’s girls’ weekend, characterized by deep conversations among friends.

The hosts shift the conversation towards gender norms related to parenting responsibilities. Cathy notes the common expectation for mothers to be more engaged in day-to-day child activities and caregiving, often receiving praise when fathers participate. The hosts explore shared responsibilities during events like Thanksgiving cleanup, questioning whether traditional gender norms persist in such situations. This segment illuminates the ongoing challenges of navigating gender expectations within the realm of parenting.

Cathy emphasizes the challenges of navigating gender norms and expectations, particularly for women. The discussion touches on the frustration women feel with the dual pressure of meeting expectations and facing criticism for not asking for help. Todd and Cathy reflect on the importance of organizing tasks for the next day and delve into the dynamics of daily chores within a household. This part of the conversation sheds light on the complexities and frustrations individuals experience within the framework of gender norms.

The hosts bring in insights from various sources, including a clip from Sheila Johnson discussing the importance of women participating in team sports for skills like negotiation. They explore gender norms associated with sports involvement, from playing to understanding the language and being a professional athlete. The conversation weaves in humor from comedians like Mitch Hedberg and Nate Bargatze, adding a lighthearted touch to the discussion.

In the concluding part of the episode, Todd shares a personal anecdote about breaking traditional gender norms by painting his toenails blue. This act of self-expression becomes a metaphor for challenging societal expectations and embracing individuality. The hosts stress the importance of questioning cultural norms, acknowledging the fluidity of gender roles, and fostering open conversations in relationships.

The discussion takes an interesting turn as the hosts delve into Taylor Swift’s achievements, emphasizing her talent and business acumen. Todd defends Swift against critics and highlights her ability to reflect the realities faced by women through her music. The hosts underscore the significance of recognizing and challenging gender norms, promoting a more inclusive and understanding society.

The Zen Parenting Radio podcast episode provides a multifaceted exploration of gender norms, touching on emotional expression, parenting responsibilities, societal expectations, and sports culture. Through humor, personal anecdotes, and insights from various sources, Todd and Cathy Adams offer a nuanced perspective on the challenges and frustrations individuals face within the framework of gender norms. The episode encourages listeners to question cultural expectations, embrace self-expression, and engage in open conversations to foster understanding and inclusivity.


ZPR#739 – Gender Norms Truth or Fiction Full Episode Transcript – DOWNLOAD
Todd: Okay, um, sweetie, I was thinking about bringing this up on the Tournament of Bad. Okay. But do you remember what, actually my sister brought this up last night on the phone. Okay. She was watching the football game, Sunday Night Football. Yeah. And she hates the play, you know what I’m about to say? Oh my god, I hate the play too.

[00:00:19] Todd: Which play for our listener audience that you and my sister

[00:00:22] Cathy: hate? The play where they hand the ball And then they try to go through the middle, where all the players are, and they get stopped and sometimes pushed back even further. It’s the dumbest

[00:00:32] Todd: play. Um, and I’m going to, on the other side of the intro music, do my best.

[00:00:37] Todd: Even though I’ve never played more than freshman high school football of why I think that play is important. Oh, geez. Here we go. My name’s Todd. And this is Gabby. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 739. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding.

[00:01:02] Todd: And always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s well being is a parent’s self understanding. Amen. On today’s show Uh, gender norms. Truth or fiction. That’s what I’m gonna call this one. Oh, cool. Gender norms. Truth or fiction. We’re gonna talk about, um, gender norms. Whether they’re true or they’re false.

[00:01:23] Todd: Um, and it’s gonna be a short show because Kathy and I usually record in the morning. In the AM, Kathy and our old age, our 50, our early 50s. Yeah. Uh, we like to wake up early these days and go to bed early. Wait, I have to

[00:01:37] Cathy: tell you something that my friend Jess just sent me. It’s this, um, if you’re on, if you’re watching this on, what’s it called?

[00:01:44] Cathy: YouTube. You can actually see the

[00:01:46] Todd: picture. It says seniors. Birth before 1975 to 1979, now entitled to these seven benefits in December.

[00:01:54] Cathy: Okay. So the reason that it’s funny is if you’re just listening to this, it like Todd said, it’s [00:02:00] a senior’s birth before 1979, now entitled to these seven benefits. And the picture is like an old, old woman pushing a cart.

[00:02:08] Cathy: Just to give you some understanding, you youngins, Todd was born in 1972. That’s right. I was born in 1971. That’s right. So we’re entitled to some benefits, but we don’t look like this person. No, that’s an old person. Keep going.

[00:02:22] Todd: Um, by the way, do you, did you notice what, uh, I called myself and, uh, on the Zoom chat or the Zoom?

[00:02:28] Todd: I put Kathy

[00:02:28] Cathy: rules and then you wrote Todd

[00:02:30] Todd: rules more. I do. So here’s why, and there’ll be some football fanatics that probably will correct me, but I feel that the, the play up the middle to the running back is purposeful for a lot of reasons. I know

[00:02:42] Cathy: what some of them are. What do you think? Some of them are because there’s like a trick pass or like a trick, they like hand it off to the side, but then they go to the other side.

[00:02:51] Cathy: And so they’re trying to trick them. They also know that sometimes they’re moving their players in a way where there is going to be an opening in the middle, that they’re really not trying to run into all the players, that they actually are trying to find a hole.

[00:03:03] Todd: Yeah, well, let’s be clear. The offensive line is trying to create a hole, is what it’s called, for the running back.

[00:03:09] Todd: The problem is there’s a bunch of defensive linemen, linebackers, and sometimes safeties there. So sometimes it doesn’t work. Um, I wasn’t going to go down the trick play lane that you just did. I think it’s more as one is it’s if you Do a pass. I think what you’re asking for is a pass play or a sweep around the side.

[00:03:26] Todd: If you do that all the time, um, it’s much easier to predict, you know what I’m saying? So if you only do those plays, it’ll just be so much easier to defense. But they don’t

[00:03:36] Cathy: get anywhere. They just run into a bunch of

[00:03:38] Todd: players. Number two is that there are plenty of plays where they get Four yards per carry.

[00:03:44] Todd: Now sometimes they get stopped dead at the line of scrimmage when they get none. But if you get four, that means you’re gonna get a first down. Four plays every time you’re gonna get

[00:03:52] Cathy: the thing is if you line up and you really only need to get that much further, all you’re trying to do is just get the person’s body over the line.

[00:03:58] Cathy: So you don’t need to do [00:04:00] some fancy thing. Like I understand, but sometimes it’s like at the very beginning of the game. When they’re not even

[00:04:06] Todd: close to it, then that’s the other thing. I think it’s harder to def it, you have to expend more energy to stop the run. So if you are not running throughout the game, the defense stays fresh for the entire game.

[00:04:21] Todd: So those you’re really pounding the defensive line when you’re running, it takes, it requires a lot more energy to do it. Whereas pass plays, I think, and I could be wrong, I think are not as energy expending, but I could be wrong. Because they can kind of stand there. Yeah. Yeah. They just put their hands up.

[00:04:37] Todd: They try to block the pass. Whereas you’re trying to stop a 240 pound runner running back full of muscle. So. Well, regardless.

[00:04:46] Cathy: It’s boring to watch people just run into each other. Yes,

[00:04:49] Todd: I understand

[00:04:50] Cathy: that. Even though that is what football is a lot of the time.

[00:04:52] Todd: Yes, it’s a lot of crashing. And they say football is not a sport of aggression.

[00:04:58] Todd: It’s really destruction. Like the amount of. energy that these two people hit each other with. I’m just shocked that they can ever get up. CTE. Yeah,

[00:05:10] Cathy: right? Yeah. I honestly, we were talking about that. I was with some of my friends last night and we were talking about CTE and I, we were talking, like someone was saying, I think it was Jess, she was talking about that Brett Favre like is

[00:05:22] Todd: So we have to pronounce Favre.

[00:05:24] Cathy: Favre. Like, I don’t know. I don’t know anything. So like for you hardcore Fans, especially Green Bay. I don’t know that he has that, but that he, he doesn’t seem to be

[00:05:32] Todd: as. Well, I have heard that Brett Favre is one of the smartest quarterbacks ever to play the game from a quarterbacking standpoint, but from an intelligence standpoint, not.

[00:05:42] Todd: The sharpest tool in be a CTA

[00:05:46] Cathy: So I’m just going to stop talking about it because I don’t know enough to be

[00:05:49] Todd: the, the authority. So when you want to hear about football, you tune in to Zen

[00:05:52] Cathy: Parenting Radio. Talk to Kathy. Even though I do understand the game, I’ve always understood the game. I don’t have a problem with the rules or what they’re doing.

[00:05:59] Cathy: I understand the [00:06:00] downs. I understand the points, the kicks. I understand all the things. But I also worry about their safety because You know, they’re getting,

[00:06:07] Todd: they’re getting banged up. And last thing, I’m just, uh, amazed. You know, my dad’s 83. Um, you know, when your parents were aging, we were worried about them falling.

[00:06:18] Todd: It’s just so funny that the biggest worry as our loved ones age is one of the biggest worries is them falling. Yet we watch a sport where these human beings will crash into each other, which sets such high philosophy. Like, human beings are so incredible. And in the end we become so fragile. Well, young

[00:06:36] Cathy: bodies Yes, tolerate.

[00:06:37] Cathy: It’s like going sledding or ice skate. Like I’m more leery about doing things. I used to do no matter what going down, down big slides or, or, or sledding or like those things were not hard rollercoasters. And now they kind of beat you up. Um, before we get off this tangent, did you get the text that I sent you that Iowa?

[00:06:57] Cathy: So I’m talking about the bowls, the B O W L bowls. Not the bowls. Not the bowls, but the, I have a Chicago accent. So bowls, B O W L, the, that Iowa is facing Tennessee. Volunteers of Tennessee. In the Cheez It

[00:07:13] Todd: citrus bowl. I know, in Orlando on New Year’s Eve day. Should we eat Cheez Its while we watch it? I eat cheese.

[00:07:20] Todd: It’s every day on vacation. And why

[00:07:21] Cathy: that’s significant is our daughter goes to Iowa and our niece, who is her age, goes to Tennessee. That’s right. So it’s going to be an Adams matchup.

[00:07:28] Todd: Heated rivalry. It is. Um, a few things. Next week we’re going to have Dr. John Duffiani is going to be talking about his amazing book about raising healthy sons.

[00:07:38] Todd: I forget the name of it. Rescuing Our Sons. Rescuing

[00:07:40] Cathy: Our Sons. Or Rescuing Our Boys.

[00:07:42] Todd: And I think it’s Our Sons. Our Sons. Okay. Rescuing Our Sons. And then we’re going to have him on, um A Q& A session on Thursday night, December 12th where you ask questions, John Duffy answers and I’ll be facilitating that. Um, so check that

[00:07:58] Cathy: out.

[00:07:58] Cathy: Not I ask questions, but the [00:08:00] people on ask

[00:08:00] Todd: questions. Yeah, the people, yeah, people who want to get on the zoom. So if you want to sign up for that, it’s in the show notes below. So I was thinking, um, I just came off of a weekend with my buddies and I know you’ve had plenty of girls weekends. I just did.

[00:08:15] Todd: Yeah. And then I also know that, um, I love this comedian who’s probably been around a long time. Can you say

[00:08:22] Cathy: his last name now? I cannot. Can you? You can’t. Like, I heard his daughter say it. She introduces him. Oh, really? Um, Nate Bartz. Oh,

[00:08:30] Todd: dang it. He just, uh, hosted

[00:08:32] Cathy: SNL. I know, but we gotta give him his due.

[00:08:34] Cathy: This, like, we can’t say his name thing. We have to figure it out. Okay. So just talk about something else for a second.

[00:08:40] Todd: Um, well, how about I play the clip? But

[00:08:42] Cathy: first we need his name. Okay. How do you pronounce

[00:08:46] Todd: Nate? I need Jeopardy music. Doo, doo, doo,

[00:08:48] Cathy: doo, doo. Bart, there it is. How do you pronounce Okay, here we go.

[00:08:53] Cathy: This is 31 seconds.

[00:08:56] Todd: It’s a TikTok. Just put your, uh Correct. With Bargatze. Bargatze. I think we say it wrong as a family.

[00:09:05] Todd: For years I’ve been calling you Nate Bargatze. Yeah and I just went with that because you were so big it was easier just to do it. Bargatze. Bargatze. Bargatze.

[00:09:17] Cathy: All right. So that’s him talking to Fallon. So Bargatze. Nate Bargatze. Um,

[00:09:21] Todd: so I’m gonna play a clip from him but um, we just, I just want to talk about Gender norms and whether or not they’re true or not because I think some of the times they are true and some of the times they are not true and I’m just going to go ahead and start with Nate here.

[00:09:34] Todd: Alright, you ready? Sure. This is him, uh, doing some stand up somewhere. I’m having a girl, a girl world is the only world that I know. And when you only know one world, the other world is like, you’re like, I don’t understand. It like gets, it’s wall. Like, she plays with her friends, it’s quiet, it’s fun. My buddy wanted me to watch his son.

[00:09:56] Todd: He watched my daughter one time, which, I learned, [00:10:00] is not a fair trade. I should get eight watches to his one watch. I handed over a princess. He just throws a bobcat in my house.

[00:10:20] Todd: I lose him immediately. He’s like under the deck chewing on wires. I had to wrestle him down. I was like, why don’t you walk him on a leash before you bring him over next time?

[00:10:33] Todd: All right. So that’s funny, right?

[00:10:36] Cathy: Yeah. But you sound, we sound

[00:10:37] Todd: weird right now. Um, I’m just going to roll with it. I think we sound fine. Are you sure? Well, you sound much closer now. That’s what I mean.

[00:10:44] Cathy: Like something happened. Did you, cause you just played. Played that. There. Okay. We were weird. We were like.

[00:10:50] Cathy: I

[00:10:50] Todd: boosted your mic a bit.

[00:10:51] Cathy: It sounded like cans. No. Like we were talking in cans. Okay. So that was funny, right? Right. That, and that is from, you and I have three girls. Yes. But every time I talk about, not every time, but a lot of times when I’m talking about my girls or when they were little, people will say, it’s so different.

[00:11:07] Cathy: If it’s a boy, they are, they

[00:11:09] Todd: act different. Yeah. So, um, I think this is a little bit in Captain Obvious territory, um, but there, uh, but that doesn’t mean that there’s really chilled out, cool, mellow boys. And doesn’t mean that there’s really Bobcatty girls out there, right? Of course, because we’re not all the same.

[00:11:26] Todd: Generally speaking, the reason this is funny is because there’s truth in it. Anytime

[00:11:31] Cathy: there’s laughter, it’s knowing laughter. Right.

[00:11:32] Todd: There’s some, there’s some truth that happens in there. And, um. I don’t know where I want to go with this, but they’ve also, because, you know, they talk about, uh, the emotional bandwidth of boys.

[00:11:44] Todd: Uh huh. Now, so let’s get into that part because that’s a part that I have, you know, expended a lot of my resources around trying to raise the emotional literacy, the emotional intelligence, the emotional awareness, the emotional agility. [00:12:00] of the men in my life. True men living. And I think, you might tell me if I’m wrong, there were studies that studied, I think, I don’t know, it was like, um, toddlers.

[00:12:11] Todd: Infants. Infants. And they, the, the infant boys are more emotionally expressive than infant girls. Um, so why do you think it is that, um, Once they hit adolescence, it’s the opposite. Well, I think

[00:12:28] Cathy: it’s before adolescence. I think it happens pretty

[00:12:31] Todd: quickly. So what happens, uh, infant, toddler, adolescent? Is that what,

[00:12:35] Cathy: is that the order?

[00:12:35] Cathy: Infant, toddler, child, adolescent. Adolescent typically to me, and again there, you know, again these are, it’s different depending on who you’re talking to. But adolescence I feel like is the steps before teenage. So it could sometimes 9, 10, 11, 12. Childhood, I think that when boy, cause it can happen to a three year old boy.

[00:12:57] Cathy: I think there is a societal and cultural expectation for boys to have a less of an emotional range and more of a stoicism and more of a repression of emotions. And the thought is if they are really emotionally expressive, especially in public, that it’s something we need to kind of. Work on with them that that’s not something that now again, we are in a different time I feel like a lot of parents now understand that that’s ridiculous and really try to get their boys to Be more expressive and allow for that in the home, but I think even if you are doing that within the home There’s these cultural norms within schools and sports and sometimes run groups that can still limit our boys expression, and I think it happens way

[00:13:49] Todd: before adolescence.

[00:13:50] Todd: Yeah, and So I talked a little bit about, you know, I’m 51, you’re 52. I just got off of a guy’s [00:14:00] weekend. And I had a girl’s weekend. And I spent, just to give you kind of some insight on what Me and these are my college buddies. So I have like different worlds of friends. Do you have different worlds of friends?

[00:14:12] Todd: Uh, my college friends, we, when we tend to get together, we tend to regress back to where we were when we met. When we met, we were between 18 and 22. So there’s a lot of alcohol, there’s some gambling, there’s a lot of staying up late. Even as a 51 year old man, we played, uh, we had the, we created this, this competition where we had two teams throughout the entire weekend.

[00:14:36] Todd: Todd created medals. I, my friend Miles, uh, who does all this swag stuff for Men Living and Zen Parenting, he created these medals so we could hand out medals in the award ceremony. It’s got to be tangible. At the competition, otherwise it doesn’t count. It doesn’t count if you don’t win something. Um, we played pickleball, we played golf, we played darts, we played pool, we played all these different things.

[00:14:56] Todd: At the end of the day, I My team lost. I heard.

[00:14:59] Cathy: That’s, I’m sorry. And just like a side note, do you remember, so when Todd and I, Todd used to do fantasy football and they had a, uh, this trophy that, you know, got moved around from person to person and whoever won and Todd won. Um, several years back it was when we were renting a house when our house was under construction and in our family room.

[00:15:20] Cathy: It was an

[00:15:20] Todd: audacious trophy. It was

[00:15:21] Cathy: huge. It was very big. And it was, we had a, did we have the piano in the room? We had a piano and his trophy was on top of the piano. It was like the centerpiece of our family room. Of course. And I’m like, is this really? Do you

[00:15:32] Todd: know how hard it was for me to win that championship?

[00:15:34] Todd: I, I,

[00:15:35] Cathy: no, no, I don’t

[00:15:36] Todd: know. Um, and then one other small take, um, it’s kind of weird being at bars now. Yeah, because we’re 51. Yeah. We look, we look 51. Correct. And most of the people at the bars are in their twenties. Yes.

[00:15:51] Cathy: Well, it depends on what bar

[00:15:51] Todd: you go to. That’s true. But we’re at bars, I mean, we’re in Scottsdale, Arizona, and it was, they had ping pong, and [00:16:00] they had all these games, and it was loud, and there was music, and I would say the average age of somebody walking in a bar was in their mid twenties or late twenties, and it’s just weird.

[00:16:10] Todd: Like, I’m sure they’re looking at us like Go home, old man. And I was smart enough to actually go home earlier than all of my friends. All my friends tend to stay out later than I. Cause you had a cold. Cause I had a cold. Plus we started really early. Like the first day we started like four o’clock and you know, by midnight, I’m done, I’m cooked.

[00:16:28] Todd: I love

[00:16:28] Cathy: starting early. And when I say starting, it doesn’t always have to be about drinks. It’s just about, I love having the experience of being like, let’s go out now. Like, you know what? I can’t stand Todd. Waiting, like getting home from work or whatever. Waiting for something to start. Waiting for something to start being like, It’s four o’clock, I’m sitting here, I would like to go put my pajamas on, but no, I have to wait until seven to get dressed again to go do something.

[00:16:51] Cathy: It’s five

[00:16:51] Todd: o’clock somewhere. I know. So, uh, that was, so, and as far as emo With these guys, the emotional vulnerability is not Off the charts, let’s just say that. Um, that was kind of a summary of my weekend. What would a summary be of a girl’s weekend for you? Uh,

[00:17:10] Cathy: for me now at this point, it’s um, a lot of conversation.

[00:17:14] Cathy: A lot. We sit and talk. I would say 89 percent of the time. Talk about what? Everything.

[00:17:25] Todd: About relationships? About deep

[00:17:26] Cathy: stuff? I want to make sure when I’m with everybody, and let’s see, there’s like six of us, or how many of us were there? Let’s see. Yeah, six of us. So my goal is, because like one of my friends I was with on the plane, right?

[00:17:40] Cathy: And so like she and I got to super catch up. We got, we got super duper catch up because we like had hours on the plane. But then when I’m there, I, there is like, I want to make sure, these are the things I want to hit. How are you? Like, I always start with them, you know, how you’re doing, what’s going on with you and your work.

[00:17:57] Cathy: And then, if they have children, let’s go [00:18:00] through all the children. If you have a partner, let’s go through that. Then let’s talk about what’s coming up next. Often their parents are aging, so like, what’s going on there? And then, anything else? Then, of course, we’re like you guys. We talk about our history. We have inside jokes that have been, we’ve had for 30 years.

[00:18:15] Cathy: We talk about the past, but we tend to focus more, I mean, we, I can do this with any of my best friends. Hours can pass and there’s just never not something to talk about because you can move, you can get tired and go to bed and be like, we’ll start again tomorrow, but you can move to the next topic. Right.

[00:18:33] Todd: Um. Hours. And.

[00:18:36] Cathy: We, I, I had a point where I was in a chair for, I don’t know, four and a half hours. I had, I didn’t move. I forgot. And then

[00:18:43] Todd: I had to go to the bathroom. Well, what’s funny is there was a point where we were playing Golden Tee, 18 holes. Uh huh. Eight players playing on teams of two, and it was about two hours of us staring at a golden tea machine.

[00:18:55] Todd: Yeah. Not really talking other than, hey Casey, it’s your turn.

[00:18:59] Cathy: Hey, golden tea and me, we’re not buddies. Not good. Golden tea was such, in the time, in the 90s when you and I were going out as much as we were, it was like such an obstacle. Do you think

[00:19:10] Todd: most girlfriends didn’t like golden tea? I, I

[00:19:13] Cathy: think, okay, so I don’t want to speak for everybody, and I think there were times I attempted to play.

[00:19:18] Cathy: to get invested in what you were doing, but I didn’t like it. And you guys played so much, you were so much better that you’d kick my butt and it wasn’t fun. And it was like we, if we’d find a bar and there’s a golden tea, you guys would just bail. Yeah. And you’d be doing that stupid

[00:19:35] Todd: ball. Yeah. The track ball.

[00:19:38] Todd: Checking the wind. Yeah. Making sure you got the right club, backspin, roll.

[00:19:43] Cathy: Yeah, so I’m not like, it’s not that I’m like really angry at Golden Tee, but I’m not, I don’t miss it.

[00:19:49] Todd: Um, sweetie, by the way, your Christmas present is going to be a Golden Tee machine in the basement. Um, so let’s move a little bit, just talk about norms of, what are the gender [00:20:00] norms for moms and dads as far as taking care of children?

[00:20:04] Todd: Okay, so

[00:20:05] Cathy: this is a different gender norm? Uh, yeah. So we’re going on to the next

[00:20:08] Todd: phase. Yeah, I guess so. And, and what is, and what are those norms? And do, do Kathy and Todd fit in those norms? Well,

[00:20:15] Cathy: I mean, I guess the most obvious gender norms is typically, and again, this is generally speaking, um, a lot of times the moms are more engaged with the day to day activities of their children.

[00:20:25] Cathy: There’s a lot of caregiving expectations that I think. Um, women are expected to do, men do them, but they often do them with a lot more praise because it’s less expected. Um, it’s, you know, a lot of the things that we hear about, you know, a mom is, you know, takes the kids to school in the morning and everyone’s like, hi, you’re here, you’re dropping off the kids.

[00:20:48] Cathy: And if the dad takes the kids to school, there’s a lot of like, wow. Look at dad bringing the kids. So it, even if we try to divide and do things in a more balanced way, and again, this isn’t a heteronormative, this is male, there’s a man woman, um, in a relationship, that’s what we’re talking about. Even if we try to divide.

[00:21:07] Cathy: and do it in a, a way that’s balanced, I still feel like men get a lot more credit, and there’s more of an expectation that women do

[00:21:16] Todd: it. Yeah. Well, and it’s fun, funny, we just, um, celebrated Thanksgiving, and we were in Italy. Mm hmm. So we didn’t have the traditional Thanksgiving dinner. But usually we’re in Seattle, and we all partner up and clean up that, Thanksgiving clean up is typically a lot.

[00:21:34] Todd: You get the turkey, you get all the different dishes. And would you say that that is an equal opportunity evening as far as, um, the clean up? It

[00:21:44] Cathy: has been, but there’s also been years where you guys bailed. Oh, really? And the women did it all. Yeah, remember when you guys went downstairs? I think we did that a few years ago.

[00:21:51] Cathy: Yeah, yeah. And I was like, you guys totally left when it

[00:21:53] Todd: was like time to clean up. We did do that. That was an outlier. But typically speaking, um, we do that together, the five [00:22:00] of us, me, you, John, Shane, and Kathleen. I

[00:22:02] Cathy: mean, typically, I, I think that that has been something though. Yeah, I’m just gonna leave it.

[00:22:08] Todd: Yes. And I just wonder, like it’s a good litmus test for somebody listening who just had Thanksgiving. Yeah. We’re recording this in early December or are about to walk into the holidays. Um, cause I know that when I was growing up, the, my mom and their Norwegian women would go, go crazy in the kitchen and do all of it.

[00:22:24] Todd: And all of us, boys and dads would sit around and I don’t know what we would do, but we certainly wouldn’t do

[00:22:29] Cathy: that. Talk to, watch the football game, whatever. Yeah, yeah, there is, and a lot of times, like there are times, I’m gonna, there’s like a lot of layers to this because, say even now, even if we get food, we get carry out because I’m not someone who enjoys really, you know, preparing meals that much.

[00:22:47] Cathy: So we eat and then it’s time to clean up and sometimes there’s a lot of like, well, I’ll help and sometimes it’s just more difficult. To have you there. Like, it’s not about you, Todd, is a problem. But there’s a lot of like, where does this go? Or, you know, you want the sink. And I want, so sometimes I’m just like, let me do it.

[00:23:04] Cathy: And not because, oh,

[00:23:06] Todd: ouch. Back up, sweetie. Can you say where does this go? Yeah. I know where everything goes. I’m not saying I’m the best husband, but I know where stuff goes. Okay. Now, I will also say that you like cleaning up the kitchen, I think, because you get to zone out and listen to your, whatever podcast you’re on.

[00:23:25] Todd: No? That is

[00:23:26] Cathy: what I do. Right. But it’s not like I’m like, Ooh, I can’t wait to clean the kitchen. I listen to a podcast to make it go faster. True.

[00:23:34] Todd: I, I, I just feel like there’s times when I’m like, all right, I’m going to, I’m going to do the kitchen or whatever. And you’re like, no, no, no. Everybody get out. Let me give, this is my

[00:23:41] Cathy: time.

[00:23:42] Cathy: Because I don’t want to do it with you because then I have to talk to you and I love you. But there’s a point in time where I’m like, okay, now I’m just want to get things done. So it’s kind of like

[00:23:51] Todd: your Cal God takeaway moment.

[00:23:53] Cathy: Everybody goes so I can do this, but I don’t, it’s, you know, this whole conversation, you know, like these [00:24:00] gender norms, it’s very, it’s very challenging because I think that there’s a lot of expectation and then also a lot of, and you’re not doing this right now, by the way, Todd, I’m not trying to be, this is not about you, but then there’s a lot of frustration at women for doing things like, well, if you don’t want it to be that way, then you change it.

[00:24:17] Cathy: If you really want help, then ask for it. If you, and there’s a lot of like. Expectation and things have to be done. And then there’s a lot of, well, I will do the dishes, but I’ll do ’em in the morning when I want to. And that doesn’t work necessarily. Yeah. Because you wanna wake up to a nice expectation, you wanna wake up to start.

[00:24:33] Cathy: And it’s not because we need cleanliness, it’s because we need organization. Yeah. We have to start another day. Yeah. And so when someone’s like, well, don’t worry about it. I’ll do it the way I wanna do it. It’s like, but that doesn’t work with the community you live in, right? It’s not about the micromanaging.

[00:24:48] Cathy: It’s like, we were just, we were, I was having a conversation with my girlfriends this weekend about like, do you roll towels or do you fold towels? And there’s folders. We’re folders. We actually are folders. But was that ever a challenge for you? Like, did you ever have to shift your thinking about rolling versus?

[00:25:02] Cathy: I’ve never even thought about

[00:25:03] Todd: rolling. Oh, okay. We should try to roll and see what happens. Well, we definitely have more room. Let’s, let’s roll it up. You want to do it? You have to make a commitment to it though. I don’t want to commit to it. Because it means you have to remove all the folded towels. Let’s not do it.

[00:25:15] Todd: Yeah, forget it. Let’s take that one. We were so close to rolling

[00:25:18] Cathy: towels. I think that these conversations are really interesting and I think we have to not live in, which you and I never do, not live on the surface of it. Of you like to clean the kitchen, that’s why you do it. And I do this and I mow the lawn and you.

[00:25:34] Cathy: Clean the house. Like, they’re, some of those gender norms you and I fall into, but I actually mow the lawn. You

[00:25:40] Todd: do mow the lawn. It’s so funny. I wish I could pull up Nate because Nate has, oh, I got to see if I can find it. Okay. He has one on, um, mowing the lawn. So I’m going to play a different clip and I’m going to try to come back on the mow the lawn thing with Nate.

[00:25:53] Todd: But, um, so this clip is, and it just, Coincidentally, this came into my feed and it’s from a [00:26:00] woman named Sheila Johnson. She is the co founder of BET, which I think is Black Entertainment. Yeah, BET. It’s a channel. Um, and it has to do with sports. Okay. Now, what’s funny is I don’t know if this goes against the gender norm argument or not.

[00:26:13] Todd: It’s just an interesting thing that she said. Um, so maybe we’ll talk about sports here in a second. But this is, uh, I don’t know if I’ll play the whole thing, but we’ll see. I try to tell all women, it is important that they learn team sports, because men have always had this their whole lives. It

[00:26:31] Cathy: takes them to corporate boardrooms, they’re

[00:26:33] Todd: able to negotiate, they’re able to fight, and then also walk out of the same doors and then become friends, hey, let’s

[00:26:41] Cathy: go play golf somewhere.

[00:26:43] Cathy: These are lessons

[00:26:44] Todd: that women do not have. We were not taught that. And I think it’s really, really important and I really try to emphasize as many parents as possible, get your kids into team sports. I don’t care whether it’s soccer, basketball, volleyball, whatever it is, there are lessons that are

[00:27:03] Cathy: learned there.

[00:27:03] Cathy: Yes. How on

[00:27:04] Todd: those courts. Yes. What do you think? Yeah. I mean, uh, and that goes for anybody in sports. Yeah. It’s just, and, and now I feel like. There’s as many girls in sports as boys, but maybe, maybe that’s not true. Well, for sure,

[00:27:17] Cathy: but there’s a lot of different things in there. There’s nothing she said that I disagree with.

[00:27:21] Cathy: So I’ll just say that, but then I’ll start a new paragraph and say, you can play them, which you learn a lot in being on a team. I don’t deny that at all. But I also think there’s an ability to understand it. Like, like we started talking about football. I, the game of football, the games that I know the best are baseball because I played it or I played softball and so I know it very well.

[00:27:43] Cathy: Um, football I’ve always known. I’ve watched it my whole life. Um, I, I do understand soccer better because my kids finally played it. I understand lacrosse because my kids played it. Um, obviously bowling, golf, but just the understanding of them where you have the lingo. There’s a lot of [00:28:00] things that we have in our society that there’s a lot of sports lingo.

[00:28:04] Cathy: And if you don’t understand what people are trying to say, it’s like cultural literacy. Right. You know, like, ooh, they knocked that out of the park. That’s a, that’s baseball lingo. Or, you know, we’re gonna need, what are some other ones, Todd? We’re gonna need, um, Um, give me some football, baseball lingo that people say all the time.

[00:28:23] Cathy: You hit a home run. Yeah. You know, um, you know, the something, anything about bases and anyway, I can’t come up with them off the top of my head. I feel like you’re not helping me at

[00:28:33] Todd: all. I’m trying to find

[00:28:34] Cathy: Nate. Okay. Sorry about that. Um, but my point is, is there’s some cultural literacy to this where we can say, well, it’s very patriarchal.

[00:28:41] Cathy: It, it, it is in, in essence, but it’s also sports don’t belong to men. Women can play sports just as well. I, you know what’s something I love right now is there’s so many women wrestlers now. That’s a new thing to me. I think that’s amazing.

[00:28:57] Todd: I went to my friend’s son’s wrestling meet at Loyola Academy last year and it was the varsity.

[00:29:03] Todd: Wrestling. Meet. Okay. And there was a young woman who was, I don’t know, she’s 112, 119 pounds, and she beat the pants off of this kid that she was wrestling. Yeah. And I think she was even. I think she may have even qualified for sectionals. I don’t think she went to state because, because I don’t know if they have girl, it’s called folk style wrestling, the kind that we are used to seeing, not, not on TV, but on the collegiate, the high school level.

[00:29:35] Todd: Um, I was a mat made, so I know. Yes. And now it’s terminology’s bad. And now it’s a three points for a takedown. I heard. Two points. Cause I just watched Iowa State wrestle. Um, but she, uh. But I thought that there was a whole different section of competition where it’s just girls wrestling girls. But in this one that I saw at Loyal Academy, it was, you know, out of the 12 starting [00:30:00] wrestlers, 11 of them were boys, but the girl was Right.

[00:30:04] Todd: Well,

[00:30:04] Cathy: and it just depends. It depends on how many you have. And it depends on the school, just like there are football teams where there is one girl who plays on the all male football team where you have a female kicker. Like it’s not, but if you had enough girls, there was actually a, a, um, we, during the Kansas City game last night, Kansas City Green Bay game last night, there was a commercial and it was for, it was a commercial for donating money to sports.

[00:30:28] Cathy: And. It was about football, but it had girls playing football. Now they were playing, um, flag football, but they weren’t like, this is for girls sports. They just showed girls playing it. Like, it was really interesting because we all commented on it. And one of my friends actually commented. She was like, they didn’t say girls.

[00:30:45] Cathy: They just showed them. Which is kind of, you may think that’s not a big deal.

[00:30:48] Todd: When they say like women’s tennis, can’t we just say

[00:30:51] Cathy: tennis? Because like the stars of tennis. Are women. Yeah. Let’s be honest. Like, I know some of the men are big too, but the ones that I was watching, and it’s like, it’s so true.

[00:31:03] Cathy: You know, the only thing I think that really necessitates a differentiator is gymnastics. When they say women’s gymnastics, men’s gymnastics. Why is that any different? Because when we say gymnastics, I think of women. Oh, because it’s the norm. Correct. Got it. I see it as the norm. Got it. What do you, when you think gymnastics, what do you think?

[00:31:21] Todd: I probably think of women. Yeah. Because it’s more fun to watch the women.

[00:31:26] Cathy: I like their events better.

[00:31:28] Todd: And I think it’s more fun to watch the women tennis because, and I could be wrong, but maybe, maybe, because I don’t watch much tennis anymore, but I just, the, the men can hit it, whatever, 10 miles per hour faster than.

[00:31:44] Todd: The women on the serves, that it’s so hard to return that it’s usually like serve, volley, and then that’s the end of the point for the boys. Yeah, it’s like an hour game. Yeah, it’s that the points don’t last as long, but I could be wrong, but that’s what I remember. Yeah, it’s

[00:31:56] Cathy: more volley, um, with, but anyway, I [00:32:00] just think that we, there’s many layers to sports.

[00:32:03] Cathy: There’s understanding them on TV. There’s understanding the language and there’s playing yourself. And then there’s being like a. A professional or collegiate athlete where that’s like part of your identity. There’s lots of different layers. I just know that you can also, you don’t have to be an athlete, but you can still understand sports.

[00:32:20] Cathy: I think sometimes when we’re like, Oh, I don’t get it. You know, like, I think we can participate in the. understanding of it.

[00:32:28] Todd: I can’t find Nate. He has a whole thing about how his wife mows the lawn and it’s this funny thing about how he’s like you can mow the lawn but you have to tell all our neighbors that it’s your choice because otherwise all the neighbors are going to kill me for making my wife mow the lawn because it’s supposedly a guy’s thing.

[00:32:46] Cathy: So is that for real right now?

[00:32:48] Todd: Like, tell me He has that in his standup. But I’m asking you. Uh, it has come across, but you’ve been mowing the lawn for a lot longer than I have, so now I don’t even think about it. But the first time you did it, I’m sure, I’m like, no, no, I’m supposed to do the yard

[00:33:01] Cathy: work. And it’s funny, I have been mowing the lawn since I’ve been 13 years old.

[00:33:05] Cathy: That was my, and again, I came from a family of, it was just my sister and I, so chores, it didn’t, there was no gender specificity. Like, you mow the lawn. And I love mowing the lawn. Why? I love the smell. I love the grass. I love even a little of that, the gas that goes out, like it smells good to me. I like, I feel like it’s active.

[00:33:27] Cathy: Like I’m moving. It makes the lawn look

[00:33:30] Todd: amazing. I think I found it. Oh, let’s try it right here. The guy that we have that mows our yard is my wife. The guy that mows our yard.

[00:33:48] Todd: It’s free, which is nice. I don’t care for the tone. It is mo there.[00:34:00]

[00:34:01] Todd: She wanted to mow it. And I said, and I was like, look, that’s fine, but I want you to go tell every neighbor that you choose to do this.

[00:34:13] Todd: The guy, isn’t that

[00:34:14] Cathy: funny? Well, you know what we were talking about? We, we, my friends and I watched, we watched the Nate, um, we watched two of his specials, one from 2019 and one from 2021, and we were talking about. Why he’s funny because first of all, he’s a clean comic. Yeah, he’s doesn’t swear out there and he doesn’t really talk about sex.

[00:34:34] Cathy: Mm hmm and He is Perceptive like Jerry Seinfeld is yes. He talks about things that we all have experienced again knowing laughter But he points it out and he also talks about his family a lot. Yeah. Um, and so it’s just, but like someone like Jim Gafkin talks about his family all the time, but it feels like the dad joke.

[00:34:55] Cathy: Yeah. And I don’t feel like that’s Nate’s thing.

[00:34:57] Todd: Nate’s a little more introspective. I, I think Nate is one of the funnier standups I’ve ever seen. And he’s, maybe it’s just cause he’s new to me. Sweetie, you know

[00:35:05] Cathy: who our favorite standup is. I’m making you like join me on this, but our guy who does the delivery.

[00:35:12] Cathy: That’s so funny when he talks it, he’ll be like, he, he passed away. He, um, he does the thing where he’s like, I don’t know what they mean. Do you know what I mean?

[00:35:23] Todd: Oh, what’s his name? Yeah. I’ll, I’ll look it up. I know my, my, whenever you and I are trying to come up with a name, 50 year old thing? Probably. I know you’re talking about, but I want to

[00:35:35] Cathy: find him cause I want to share him.

[00:35:37] Cathy: I

[00:35:37] Todd: know people, we will, we will. I promise. How will we even locate him? Um, cause he’s one of the funniest stand ups, um, and he overdosed, I think.

[00:35:46] Cathy: I know. So like, is that the way we, but if we put in comedian overdose, I’m, I’m, unfortunately, there’s been more. You, you. Um, okay. You do that. Now ask me another question.

[00:35:56] Todd: Mitch Hedberg. That’s it? Yes. Yeah, he was, [00:36:00] he was. Will

[00:36:00] Cathy: you find something of his to play? Because I, I’m, I’m sitting here saying like, we have to enjoy the exact same comedian and we don’t, but we, this guy. Nate has a great delivery too, but this guy Mitch for some reason, no matter what he says, it just makes me laugh.

[00:36:16] Cathy: And he’s also an observer. You know? He is. He did say crass things occasionally, but he was also like a really good observer. I

[00:36:28] Todd: order the club sandwich all the time and I’m not even a member, man. I don’t know how I get away with it. I like my sandwiches with three pieces of bread. So do I. Well, let’s form a club there.

[00:36:42] Todd: But we need some more stipulations. Yes, we do. Instead of cutting the sandwich once, let’s cut it again. Yes. Four triangles and we’ll position them into a circle. And in the middle we’ll dump chips or a potato salad. Okay. Lemme ask you a question, how you feel about frilly toothpicks. I’m formed.

[00:37:05] Todd: Well, this club is formed spread the word on menus nationwide. . I like my sandwiches with alfalfa. Spross. Well, you’re not in the fucking club.

[00:37:18] Todd: I guess I gotta clean that up. Oh my God. That’s so good. But

[00:37:22] Cathy: it’s, his delivery is always like that. So no matter what he says, it just makes

[00:37:26] Todd: me laugh. All right. Last two things before we close. Let’s do it. I want to talk, or maybe three things. Um. Nail color. I’m talking about my toenails. They’re blue.

[00:37:40] Todd: They’re Carolina blue. Yup. I wore the, I 1989 Taylor Swift. We were in the hot tub together, me and my buddies. Uh huh. Cause there’s a hot tub in the hotel. I didn’t even think about this. And they all Didn’t like it. Were very curious about it. Let’s just say that. Okay. And then he asked me why. I’m like, I don’t know.

[00:37:58] Todd: But when I’m getting a pedicure [00:38:00] with my wife, which you and I do maybe every once or twice, um, uh, once, once every one or two months, um, every month or two, I guess, is that the way I choose to say it? Um, I feel like I’m not getting my money’s worth if I’m not getting toenail polish. And usually I go with purple, but, uh, I had you pick out my color.

[00:38:19] Todd: Because

[00:38:20] Cathy: Taylor Swift’s 1989 album came

[00:38:21] Todd: out that day. That’s exactly right. Yeah. And I, I just think they’re fun. I think it’s fun. And, you know, in the bro culture, that’s what girls do. Correct. And I don’t think so. I, I. Harry Styles does it. Yeah, but. Shelby does it. Those are all artistic, uh, people who are in touch with the arts.

[00:38:39] Todd: You’re artistic? Ehhh.

[00:38:41] Cathy: You’re a podcaster?

[00:38:42] Todd: Ehhh. I am a podcaster, sweetie. But Harry Styles has made a living through his

[00:38:47] Cathy: art. Sweetie, you and Harry Styles, they’re like, you’re like right

[00:38:49] Todd: there with them. So that’s just like one way I’m trying to buck the trend of what it means to be a man. I, and I would not have done this in my thirties.

[00:38:57] Todd: Cause I was too. Worried about what my friends would think about me. Oh. And now I’m like, I really, if you aren’t gonna judge me based upon the color of my toenails, um That’s fine. Like, you can, if you want, or if you want to make fun of me, that’s fine, but it doesn’t bother me anymore.

[00:39:17] Cathy: Well, you’ve already cleared it up inside of you.

[00:39:19] Cathy: Like, it’s touching something in them where they’re like, Ooh, that makes me uncomfortable, but that’s not even a part of your mentality. And a lot of that I think you will agree with me is when you have three daughters, they are going to paint your nails. They don’t care if you’re, what gender you are, any

[00:39:35] Todd: gender.

[00:39:35] Todd: But that’s easier for a guy. Cause if I, if, if I say to my buddies, my daughter’s painted my toenails. But wait,

[00:39:41] Cathy: I’m not done. I’m saying you have been exposed to that over and over and over again. And then by the time you get to where you want to paint your toenails, they’ve been painted a million. Yes, that’s true.

[00:39:52] Cathy: It’s not. So if somebody had sons. And they, and maybe they have a son who likes to paint toenails because there isn’t anything gender specific [00:40:00] about polish, by the way, everybody. But if you didn’t have a child who wanted to paint your toenails, then that may never occur to you. But you had that door opened years ago.

[00:40:11] Todd: Um, I feel like showing my toenails on the camera for anybody who ever watches our show. You think anybody watches our show? I think we have literally over 100

[00:40:20] Cathy: followers. No, no, we have 393. Do we really? Yeah, which isn’t a lot, but it’s better than It’s a lot. Yeah, there they are. Yeah, I see them. Toenails.

[00:40:32] Cathy: You can

[00:40:33] Todd: see them. Yeah, I can see that’s one

[00:40:36] Cathy: of them. Well, I just had my nails done last week, and my nails and my toes, and um, while I was there, two gentlemen came in together and to get pedicures. They’re like, do you have openings for pedicures? And they were much older than

[00:40:48] Todd: you. Well, speaking of gender norms, did we talk about this on the Zen Talk?

[00:40:52] Todd: Uh, The men greeting each other at the airport, they gave each other, it appeared to be Are you talking about Italy? In Italy. Yeah. They appeared to, and it was more than a few groups, I saw this, but they did that thing where they put their cheek on their, the other guy’s cheek. Kissed both cheeks. Yeah, they kissed both cheeks.

[00:41:09] Todd: Yeah. That’s wonderful.

[00:41:11] Cathy: But you know that’s, um, cultural. Like we, that wasn’t a surprise to you, was it? Like European men? Um.

[00:41:19] Todd: You’ve seen that before. I’ve seen it. I saw it in The Godfather when Michael wants to kill his brother. But no, I’ve never, I’ve, I’m sure I have seen it, but I’ve never witnessed it.

[00:41:30] Todd: Got it. That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. And I thought it was wonderful. And I know certain, uh, cultures in different parts of the world, men walk down the street, straight men hold hands. Uh, I know in the Jewish culture at weddings, they dance together. Um, and I, I think the world be, I think this country would be better if we can do a little bit more of that.

[00:41:48] Todd: Yeah.

[00:41:49] Cathy: I mean, everything we’re talking about here, it’s, it’s not about you. If you’re listening, you need to go paint your toenails. It doesn’t matter what it is. It’s just about the, the questioning of [00:42:00] cultural norms and also the ability, if you are talking, if you are in a male, uh, or if you are in a marriage where it’s a male and a female, and actually it doesn’t really matter because I think these conversations need to happen if it’s two men or two women also, but it’s about talking about.

[00:42:16] Cathy: Like, it, for you, for example, I’m going to go back to something I said before. You do recognize that when the girls were little and you would do something that was really not that big of a deal, you’d get a ton of credit for being a good

[00:42:29] Todd: dad. My story is always you were gone for the first time in like two years or three years in Mexico with your girlfriends.

[00:42:36] Todd: And I took both infant daughters to a party. And it was like, I just, I just somehow saved the world. Yeah. Oh

[00:42:45] Cathy: my God, we just said the same thing. I know. And that’s the thing is, so that awareness, it’s less about change it, make the world different. And in a partnership, it’s very helpful to just acknowledge that.

[00:42:57] Cathy: And it’s not about then saying to the woman, yes, you’re more important or you do more. It’s just about acknowledging those differences. Because I take, you know, I’ve had three children on the airplane together by myself and nobody’s cheering me on. Do you know what I mean? They’re like, that’s what you do.

[00:43:12] Cathy: Like, so there’s no this. So the difference between expectation versus shifting, because it doesn’t translate both ways because a woman who wants to do something that has been traditionally thought of as more masculine, like be a CEO or continue working or be the breadwinner, they get a ton of pushback

[00:43:32] Todd: about it.

[00:43:32] Todd: You ready for a little bit more here? Yeah.

[00:43:38] Todd: I would be complex.

[00:43:41] Cathy: I would be cool. They’d say I played the field before I found someone to commit to. And that would be okay for me to do. Every conquest I had made would make me more of a boss to you. I’d be a fearless leader. I’d [00:44:00] be an alpha type. When everyone believes ya. What’s that like

[00:44:15] Cathy: coming?

[00:44:20] Cathy: I be

[00:44:23] Todd: funny, I didn’t wanna play this for this song. I just want to talk about Taylor Swift because. When you think of Taylor Swift, you think of a, in a stadium of 60, 000 people, it’s 95 percent women and moms and girls. Um, having said that though, I will say with confidence that I think, I’ve just, I’ve been in a debate with some men living guys.

[00:44:46] Todd: Cause they’re like, I’m so sick of Taylor Swift. What’s with Taylor Swift? And I said if I were to rank what I most admire about Taylor Swift in order of, you know, most fascinated to on down, it would be her ability to write songs and then her entrepreneurship or her business sense is second to none.

[00:45:05] Todd: Like nobody’s ever seen this. And then it goes into her ability to play instruments and all these other things like she is a unbelievably talented person. In so many ways. So when guys are like, yeah, I don’t get it. Like what, what part,

[00:45:18] Cathy: what don’t you get? What don’t you get? She is global artist of the year.

[00:45:23] Cathy: She has sold more records than anybody. She has had more number ones. She has had the biggest tour. She has had the most longevity. There’s a ton of people that we can throw in there as well. But right now, until it’s not about, you need to then go out and buy her albums. You just need to give her the credit.

[00:45:43] Cathy: This is, and you don’t need to say she’s undeserving of it, she has sustained this and created this. And it’s, and I, you know, it’s so frustrating because I get into those conversations too and people are like, I don’t get it. You don’t have to get it. You just have to acknowledge that she’s the best at [00:46:00] what she does.

[00:46:01] Cathy: But that’s a struggle because it’s a young woman and there’s she, and people get all caught up in about it. And I, so. I’m not going to talk about more because I get frustrated.

[00:46:12] Todd: So the reason I want to say is because I remember I was just driving through my neighborhood and there was a couple of boys on bikes listening to Taylor and I just thought

[00:46:21] Cathy: it was so great.

[00:46:22] Cathy: She’s not like, yes, she, and it’s funny that you play the man because one of the best things about seeing the show in person or seeing the movie is watching 10 year old girls sing that song. Yeah. They have a woman. Reflecting to them what they’re about to, they’ve already started experiencing, which is, there is a disparity here.

[00:46:43] Cathy: If you listen, you know, listen to the words of the man, if you, you know, you just heard it, but to have 10 year olds be like, yes, it’s being pointed out, it’s being spoken up, or one of my other favorites that’s on folklore, it’s called Mad Woman. And, you know, the lyrics are, you know. It’s nothing like a mad woman.

[00:46:59] Cathy: You made her like that. Like her whole point, um, is that there’s a lot of gaslighting of women of like the, a man will do something to a woman and then a woman responds and people are more frustrated about the woman’s response rather than what the man did. And so then she’s the problem. versus the person who did it to her.

[00:47:21] Cathy: Yeah. And this is, and she writes about these things that women experience and not all the time. Sometimes she writes, shake it off. You know, there’s all sorts of layers and levels. But my point is, is that to have girls at every age, young girls, Teenage girls, and then people my age hear our reality reflected back to us.

[00:47:41] Cathy: It’s very rewarding. It’s very, um, normalizing and inspiring. As we

[00:47:47] Todd: get ready to close the show, I feel like, should we put a caveat in there for non binary in the beginning of us talking about gender norms? And if not, should we put them in right now?

[00:47:57] Cathy: Well, like I said, I’m, and maybe I didn’t do it enough, [00:48:00] but I was very much talking about our marriage as far as a man and a woman.

[00:48:05] Cathy: There are, the, the thing about gender norms is you got to think about the word norm. It’s not always, it’s a generalization for someone who, um, is non binary or someone who is, you know, curious or, or sees as queer, you know, like there is no absolute. Sure. It, the goal is the freedom. And the thing that we’re talking about here is these are what we tend to see as the norms or the cultural norms.

[00:48:29] Cathy: And I think your goal and my goal in talking about them is let’s question them. Let’s have a little more fluidity between genders or as a gender, you know? So I don’t want to exclude anyone from this conversation. But I think even when you are in, um, If you are married to, if you are a man married to a man or a woman married to a woman, there are sometimes people take on, you know, this person takes on the more traditionally masculine role and this, you know, and, and sometimes there’s a nice blend and balance, but these conversations.

[00:49:03] Cathy: Are necessary no matter who your

[00:49:05] Todd: partner is. Well, and even though I wanted to close the show, I’ll finish this with this one thing, because I’m always debating the term toxic masculinity. And I really think it, as I’ve shared with you, um, it’s about how we define these terms. Because for me, masculinity, sweetie, you are a masculine person.

[00:49:22] Todd: Sometimes you have I have masculine tendencies. Tendencies. As we all do. And what would that be? That would be strength and focus and nurture and, uh, and Leadership, force, whatever. And then Dealing with conflict. Yeah, um, and, uh, feminine would be nurturing, softness, openness, and I have some of those in me.

[00:49:41] Todd: And when people get all triggered and reactive of like how the term toxic masculinity is so off putting that I shouldn’t use it when I describe the man box. You’re not talking about men. I’m not talking about men. I’m talking about toxic masculinity. Right. A woman can display toxic masculine behavior.

[00:49:57] Todd: Overpowering. You know, yeah. But us [00:50:00] guys are so easily offended by this. So, so if you. Decide to go along with what terminology I choose to adopt, which is masculinity doesn’t equal men. Right. It’s simply a descriptor of how a person sometimes acts.

[00:50:15] Cathy: Traits and behaviors. That’s it. And

[00:50:16] Todd: motivations. So anyways, I just wanted to throw that out there.

[00:50:19] Todd: Totally. And,

[00:50:20] Cathy: but what we have learned is that let’s, and I’m not, I’m not necessarily like, Let me just say this. If there is language that gets people wrapped up in a completely different conversation where we lose the thread, then let’s not use it. And not because I’m, I talk about what toxic, toxic masculinity is just as well as you.

[00:50:38] Cathy: But if that language takes people off track, where they’re very focused on the words rather than the commentary, then let’s use different words because we’ve got lots of words. And so if we can explain it in a way that. feels more comfortable. That’s the goal. It’s not about you have to

[00:50:55] Todd: use my words. Well, and that’s some of the work that I need to do because sometimes I just like dig my heels in and be like, no, that’s masculinity.

[00:51:01] Todd: If you like, look it up, what it means. Yeah. It’s not toxic manhood. It’s not toxic men. It’s not toxic males. Right. It’s toxic masculinity, but. I just judged that us guys are so easily offended.

[00:51:15] Cathy: Well, it just, it hits something that makes you, makes men feel distracted by it and it feels offensive. And so then we lose the whole conversation.

[00:51:27] Cathy: So let’s just, okay. So that doesn’t work. Let’s

[00:51:29] Todd: try it. I guess that’s me knowing my audience. Yeah. And sometimes I do. And sometimes I don’t.

[00:51:33] Cathy: Well, and sometimes if you have men that trust you, like in Men Living, you challenge them on that thinking, but not because you need to win. But because you’re like, can you see how this is?

[00:51:44] Cathy: But then when we’re talking to like a big audience, like we are on this podcast, let’s use language that unifies and not in a, um, fear of conflict way, but like in a way where we can all hear each other. Compassionate language.

[00:51:58] Todd: Um, you know what I want to say? I [00:52:00] want to say thank you to Nicole from Rhode Island.

[00:52:02] Todd: Okay. She is a brand new Team Zen member. Um, Team Zen, we have this thing called The Circle. It’s uh, the Team Zen membership platform. It’s an app with Zen Parenting, Radios Complete, Parenting, Content Collection, plus Live Talks, all in one place. Uh, we have different micro communities, Zen Finance, Raising Healthy Sons, Differently Wired Families, and Cathy’s Exclusive Women’s Group.

[00:52:22] Todd: We actually have a Zen Talk tomorrow, as a matter of fact. And then don’t forget, we have a conference coming up, um, January 26th, 27th. Tickets are going fast. Space is limited. So, uh, just scroll down in the show notes and you can, uh, buy your ticket. Get your

[00:52:36] Cathy: tickets for this conference. Mm hmm. It’s

[00:52:39] Todd: gonna be awesome.

[00:52:40] Todd: Um, any good, uh, ending song, sweetie? Um Or do you just want me to continue this Taylor Swift song? No,

[00:52:49] Cathy: um, let’s

[00:52:50] Todd: Or words from the band.

[00:52:52] Cathy: Let’s Do, um, sure, I don’t, we’re tired. So let’s just end with Very tired. As Tase

[00:53:00] Todd: was. All right, let’s do that.

[00:53:04] Cathy: I’ll be the man. I’ll be the man. They hustled. Couldn’t work.

[00:53:17] Cathy: They wouldn’t shake their heads and question how much of this I deserve. What I was wearing, if I was rude, would all be separated from my good ideas and power moves. And they would toast to me, uh, let the players play. I’d be just like you in St. Tropez. I’m so sick of running as fast as I can. I don’t think I’d get that wiggle if I was a man.

[00:53:48] Cathy: And I’m so sick of them coming after you.