Cathy and Todd discuss entitlement and how to better relate and understand our kids. They talk about the importance of intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation, why it takes kids time to change their behavior, and how to avoid using shame when communicating family values. For the full show notes, visit


(00:00:00) Introduction

(00:03:37) Tournament of Bad- glasses/purse
(00:05:57) Get him a body bag *
(00:08:08) Entitlement
(00:09:55) Michigan Marching Band
(00:17:29) Examples of entitlement
(00:24:47) Intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation
(00:28:23) Grades
(00:35:14) When kids want things
(00:40:36) Controlling parents
(00:42:33) Conformity versus independence
(00:43:28) Two things blend in and stand out *
(00:44:55) Todd’s drinking
(00:47:14) Why kids get annoyed at parents *
(00:48:32) Household chores
(00:50:10) Making lunches
(00:54:39) Summary

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ZPR#735 – Raising Non-Entitled Children Full Episode Transcript – DOWNLOAD

[00:00:00] Cathy: Here we go. Um, Todd, so do you think it’s fair that every generation in some way gets called

[00:00:10] Todd: entitled? Uh, do I think it’s fair? Uh, justified? Like, do you think? No, no, no. I, I have arguments with my friends about this all the time.

[00:00:20] Cathy: Yeah. Me too.

[00:00:21] Todd: And it’s interesting because these kids these days, they’re entitled, right?

[00:00:24] Cathy: All that crap. You and I used to do shows a long time ago about how every generation, like we had like newspapers from like the twenties and it said that the next generation was entitled. So it’s kind of interesting to talk about yet at the same time, there are some things that we can do as far as talking with our kids and being connected with our kids to decrease that entitlement that actually ends up harming them or other people.

[00:00:48] Cathy: Let’s talk about

[00:00:55] Todd: it.

[00:00:55] Welcome to Zen Parenting Radio

[00:00:55] Todd: Here we go. My name is Todd. And this is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 735.

[00:01:04] Math and Pop Culture References

[00:01:04] Todd: That’s all three odd numbers, sweetie, just so you know. And I think three prime numbers, seven, three, and five. I don’t

[00:01:12] Cathy: see. You know, the prime thing I don’t care about.

[00:01:14] Todd: Yeah.

[00:01:15] Todd: Yeah. You don’t like math. Well, if it wasn’t for math, we wouldn’t have any buildings, sweetie.

[00:01:20] Cathy: I think it’s a strong statement. I’m not going to

[00:01:21] Todd: stay in here and let you bad mouth the United States of America for goodness

[00:01:25] Cathy: sakes.

[00:01:25] Banter and Pop Culture References

[00:01:25] Cathy: It’s not that I don’t like math. It’s that, um, I just don’t care so much that we’re on that number.

[00:01:34] Cathy: Do

[00:01:34] Todd: you, um. It was my understanding that there’d be no math. There’d be no

[00:01:37] Cathy: math. How about that SNL skit from last week with… Nate. Yeah. That was good. About the, what our country wants to focus on as firms, as far as weights and measures. Yeah. It’s, if you haven’t seen it, I think Todd should link to it below because it’s really funny as far as the truth about the craziness of the weights and measures that we use in our [00:02:00] country and compared to other countries.

[00:02:04] Cathy: It was my

[00:02:04] Todd: understanding that there would be no math. That was funny.

[00:02:10] Cathy: That was the, that was the other one though. Yeah, I know. You were behind on our pop culture references.

[00:02:15] Todd: I’m trying to be quick. I know, you’re trying to keep up. You’re pivoting quickly. I know, I’m sorry.

[00:02:18] The Importance of Self Understanding[00:02:18] Why Listen to Zen Parenting Radio?

[00:02:18] Todd: Um, why listen to Zen Parenting Radio?

[00:02:20] Todd: Because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s well being, is a parent’s self understanding. Two thank yous.

[00:02:26] The Circle: Team Zen Membership[00:02:26] Introducing Team Zen

[00:02:26] Todd: I want to thank Emily from Madison and Miranda from Ontario, Canada for joining. The Circle. Team Zen. The Circle is the Team Zen membership platform, it’s an app.

[00:02:36] Todd: Zen Parenting Raiders Complete Parenting Collection, plus live talks all in one place. Uh, we have these micro communities and finance, Raising Healthy Sons, Differently Wired Families, and Kathy’s Exclusive Women’s Group. It’s 25, cancel at any time, but I will say that we have a promo going right now that I totally forgot about.

[00:02:54] Todd: What? That everybody, uh, who signs up for the in person conference gets a free month. That’s right. So, if you end up, uh… Coming to the conference and registering, you get a free month of Team

[00:03:07] Cathy: Zen. So if you register, you get a free month of Team Zen. Correct. Because you don’t have to come to the conference to get it.

[00:03:12] Cathy: No. You just have to register

[00:03:13] Todd: for the conference. So, and we’re going to say more about uh, Team Zen You know,

[00:03:16] Discussion on Parenting Content

[00:03:16] Cathy: you said parenting collection. I think I like the word content better. Zen. Can we change, can we do some

[00:03:21] Todd: corrections? Maybe I misread it. As it’s written on my paper, Zen parenting rate is complete.

[00:03:26] Todd: Parenting content collection. Just content. Oh, so get rid of collection. You wrote this, sweetie. Well,

[00:03:32] Cathy: I’m, see, I’m doing some editing in real

[00:03:34] Todd: time.

[00:03:35] The Struggles of Parenting

[00:03:35] Todd: Um, so real quick, sometimes we like to do this tournament of bad. I don’t know if I want to call this tournament of bad, but I’m going to anyways, even though.

[00:03:44] Cathy: Tournament of bad.

[00:03:46] Todd: Um, this is actually turning him in a good because Sweetie figured it out. You hacked the system. Geez. For the last, it’s only been three days. For the last few years, uh, Kathy refuses to wear progressive lenses, [00:04:00] which I wear, because that means I can, we’re both, I guess we’re both farsighted.

[00:04:05] Todd: We’re,

[00:04:05] Cathy: we need reading

[00:04:06] Todd: glasses. We need reading, which means we’re farsighted. Right. And, uh, I have progressive, so I can wear my glasses and look, uh, driving down the road, and then I can look down at my phone and it will magnify for me. Perfect. But your brain, and a lot of other people’s brains, has a hard time adjusting to the progressive lenses.

[00:04:24] Todd: Correct. Which I understand. So instead, Sweetie says, Um, two or three times a day, where are my glasses? And then you get very frustrated with yourself when you don’t have the glasses.

[00:04:36] Cathy: Well, so two different things. Yeah. Okay. The girls will be like, mom, look at this. And I’ll be like, wait, I got to get my glasses so I can see it, which everybody thinks is annoying, funny, but annoying.

[00:04:46] Cathy: Cause they have to like stand there and wait for me to get them. The other thing is, is when Todd and I go out to eat and then I go into my bag or the car and I realized I don’t have glasses to eat and I don’t know. So Todd’s always like, you don’t need them, or he’ll be like, use mine. And I’m like, no, if I’m going to read a menu and I’m going to eat food, I have to be able to see what I’m

[00:05:04] Todd: doing.

[00:05:05] Todd: You do want to, you do want to see your food with precision.

[00:05:08] Cathy: And I don’t want to be like struggling through the whole thing. Like, and I don’t wear my glasses. That’s the thing is I’m wearing them right now because I’m looking at a screen. Yeah. Um, but I don’t wear them all the time and I don’t want to wear them all the time.

[00:05:20] Cathy: And I don’t. I don’t, I don’t want to, I

[00:05:23] Todd: don’t want it. So, um, I think there’s a lot of people that are like you that get frustrated. And what was your huge solution that you created? Well, it’s not such a huge solution. Oh, it’s big. Everybody buckle up. Ready for this

[00:05:35] Cathy: one? I’ve been using like a, a bag, what, like one of those, like, um…

[00:05:39] Cathy: Fanny packs? I don’t like that word, fanny pack, like a body bag or whatever. No, body bag is not… I think body bag

[00:05:44] Todd: would probably not

[00:05:45] Cathy: be… Okay, fanny pack, whatever. And I’ve been using that for like the past six months or so. It’s one that JC bought me that I love and I, you know, I like it. And then, but I realize there’s really not enough rum in it for things.

[00:05:58] Cathy: Okay. And so , [00:06:00] what’s this?

[00:06:03] Todd: Alright, we gotta do that one. I’ve got Do you? I know we gotta do it again though Recently. Oh, you all

[00:06:08] Cathy: wrong one. I’ve never seen the karate. I’m saw you. Okay. Can you go on?

[00:06:17] Todd: I think that was an ad

[00:06:18] Cathy: lib. It was. They put it in later. Oh, did they? Yeah. So they had already filmed it and then they filmed him saying it. That’s why it’s in the background.

[00:06:25] Todd: So Sweetie does not wear a body

[00:06:27] Cathy: bag. I don’t. No. It’s like a fanny pack, whatever. But I realized it was small that I was, couldn’t fit everything in there, which I even bought a smaller wallet.

[00:06:34] Cathy: Like I was like, let me just, you know, downsize a little bit, but so anyway, I found this purse. I stopped using a purse. Do you really? This is all like, not that interesting. But I used to have a purse that I really liked and it was like a bag, but then my wallet was stolen out of it. And so I was like, okay, not going to do that.

[00:06:51] Cathy: It was hanging on the back

[00:06:52] Todd: of my chair. I feel like I can compress the story pretty easily for you. Oh, my, my headphone just went out. Oh no. Did yours? Hold on.

[00:07:01] Cathy: Oh, that’s better. I can hear much better now. Here we go.

[00:07:03] Todd: Okay. Um, we just like bang. The way I fix it, I just like bang the microphone thing. Um.

[00:07:08] Todd: You’re like, I have this new system. And I’m like, great. What is it? You’re like, I wear a purse. Now I got a purse. So that, and I was just like, okay, you couldn’t think of that one

[00:07:18] Cathy: before. Here’s the thing. It’s very hard to find a purse. You don’t have to deal with this. Correct. So you can throw your slings and arrows, but you can’t wear it.

[00:07:28] Cathy: Yes. There is, there are bags and purses that have so much room in them that you lose everything. Then there’s bags and purses that are so small you can’t fit everything. And so it’s very hard to find a purse that like satisfies all your needs and you can still find everything. I happen to find a bag that has the middle zipper and And then has two zippers on the outside, so I can put keys on one outside zipper, my phone on another outside zipper, and everything else on the inside.

[00:07:57] Cathy: So now I have a pair of sunglasses and two pairs [00:08:00] of readers in there, and I feel like the last three days I’ve been a better person.

[00:08:04] Todd: Um, I just want to give you applause for hacking the system. Hacked it. Well done. It was hard. All right, here we go.

[00:08:11] The Concept of Entitlement[00:08:11] Discussion on Entitlement

[00:08:11] Todd: Um, so the way Kathy and I prepped for today’s show is I said, What do you want to talk about?

[00:08:17] Todd: And she said entitlement because you just did our presentation on entitlement last week. So literally I went to my computer. I did a few. Oh, did you do an AI

[00:08:25] Cathy: search? Oh, just

[00:08:26] Todd: chill Will. Okay. Don’t be so entitled. I, I know, but when you

[00:08:29] Cathy: just try not to be so entitled, it’s so general. It’s like, so, like you’re general.

[00:08:32] Cathy: Well, I’m not, yeah, you’re general. I’m not. I’m

[00:08:34] Todd: not. Yeah. Um, and then Kathy has her, now, first of all, Kathy’s notes to her presentation are hilarious. ’cause it’s like. Four words. And then she just starts talking. Kind of like what we do here. Um, but I’m, I want to start just by defining what entitlement means.

[00:08:49] Todd: Are you okay with that, sweetie? Go ahead. It’s the belief or the perception that one is inherently deserving of certain privileges, benefits, or rights without necessarily having to earn them. You buy that? Yeah. Yeah. I think that sounds pretty good. Right there. It often involves a self, a self, a sense of self importance or an expectation of preferential treatment.

[00:09:08] Todd: Yeah. That’s a pretty good baseline. And I will just share my experience with entitlement is it’s one of the least attractive Uh, human behaviors, traits that are there. Now I also own my own entitlements. Um, and I think the best way to, to be less annoyed with people about their entitlements is for me to own my own.

[00:09:31] Todd: Sure. So one very easy example I’ll give is sometimes when I’m on the road, I will, um, Everybody’s kind of waiting dutifully in line, and I’ll kind of go around them. Would you say that that’s a sense of entitlement?

[00:09:44] Cathy: Yes. I think you have road entitlement. Okay. And I point it out to you a lot. Yes. Because I don’t know why you think you should be able to get there faster than everybody else.

[00:09:52] Cathy: Right.

[00:09:52] Todd: Yes.

[00:09:53] The Impact of Entitlement on Relationships

[00:09:53] Todd: So I just want to own, and that’s one very small, simple example, and then I’ll throw my dad under the bus here for a second. Yes. My dad, [00:10:00] um, was a police officer and he would use his badge to get into places, to get into places. Like I got into Super Bowl 16, the 49 ERs against the Bengals, um, somehow with the Michigan marching band, and I still don’t know how he did that.

[00:10:13] Todd: And we sat on the stairs. So my dad like maneuvered his way with his badge into Super Bowl 16 to. Um, for me and my brother to go watch the Super Bowl in the Pontiac Silverdome. Well,

[00:10:27] Cathy: and I think that’s like an important point is that I think sometimes we, this is the conversation that we had last week at this presentation that I did, because we, it ended up being more of a discussion than me lecturing.

[00:10:38] Cathy: We just talked about things and I think that we forget the kind of. Our own entitlement, and then we get, there’s like a projection onto our kids of like, if they show any of those traits, then we get more mad at them, or more frustrated, or more uncomfortable with them, because maybe we’re not recognizing our own.

[00:11:00] Cathy: And I mean, we could go really ground level entitlements living in this country, right? Like, I don’t want to spend a lot of time on that, but you know, there’s countries right now at war. There are places where girls don’t get, are not educated. There are places where, you know, it’s under a certain kind of dictatorship or rule where you don’t have freedoms.

[00:11:20] Cathy: So, when I’m saying… Now, I know entitlement is, um, I, I know that’s not the exact same thing. Those are privileges and those are, um, you know, that’s our country. Like,

[00:11:30] Todd: that’s not to be entitled without privilege, right?

[00:11:33] Cathy: Yeah. And, and this, it gets messy in here. I think that, you know, then we start to have to redefine all these words.

[00:11:39] Cathy: But I think what I’m saying is just the recognition of what we have and then sometimes being frustrated about this line of cars. should be moving faster because I need to get somewhere. Sometimes it’s really helpful to go back to that space of the fact that I can drive a car, have a car, be safe on this road.

[00:11:58] Cathy: I mean, I know everybody, you know, [00:12:00] it’s cars, but we’re not, we’re not worried about what a lot of people in the world are worried about right now, as far as bombings and stuff like that. Um, and to, To have that sense. It’s not about walking around feeling, we talked a lot about shame. It’s not about walking around feeling ashamed or guilty.

[00:12:18] Todd: Would you say shame is the opposite of entitlement?

[00:12:22] Cathy: No. Um, I think the opposite of entitlement is awareness and consciousness, like of where you are and what you have, because shame is not. You don’t want to feel shame like I would because if someone’s like, well, I don’t want to be entitled. What should I be?

[00:12:37] Cathy: I don’t want you to feel ashamed because shamed is like it’s like a bunch of rocks that take you down To the bottom of the ocean. You can’t do much with shame.

[00:12:46] Todd: Yeah, I think it depends on what lens we’re looking at it through I’m thinking of Terry reals little relationship group and at the top it’s grandiosity, which I think falls in line with entitlement yeah, and then the the Below is shame where you’re just beating yourself up and you don’t deserve anything and all that whereas what you’re saying is the middle ground Yeah is let’s find that middle ground middle ground is awareness of like Understanding somebody else’s needs.

[00:13:11] Todd: Yeah, instead of just thinking about

[00:13:12] Cathy: my own. It’s almost like this this place of compassion for yourself and other people. Um, and, and I, and I say yourself and other people, because if you’re overly empathetic or compassionate to others, then you tend to forget about yourself and you can get into codependency.

[00:13:29] Cathy: And if you are focused solely on yourself, then you do things that are, do not benefit your village or your community or your family or your whole, you just focus on you. So I think it’s that place in between that we’re going for. And that, you know, just in a very simple. , um, you know, a simp, a way to simplify this as far as with parents is this is a really big role modeling thing.

[00:13:53] Cathy: Mm-Hmm. . Okay.

[00:13:54] The Role of Parents in Shaping Children’s Perception of Entitlement[00:13:54] Closing Remarks and Final Thoughts

[00:13:54] Cathy: Because we can talk a lot about entitlement and we can make a, our kids feel bad about it, and we can say, [00:14:00] or, and we can talk to each other about, oh, this generation is so entitled, but. We have to be really clear about what we’re not only showing in our own lives, how we’re showing up, but also about what we talk about in our home.

[00:14:12] Cathy: And I really, I don’t know if you want to switch gears from that yet because I want to go deeper into it. Is there anything you want to say more about

[00:14:18] Todd: that? Well, um, Here’s what I want to do real quick. Okay. I came up with a few examples So that people can get their arms around of entitlements. Okay, if it’s pop culturing some of its personal.

[00:14:29] Todd: Sure. First one is the the college scandal where the Hollywood people were helping their kids cheat on the SATs, ACTs. Yeah. I assume that would be a good example of Entitlement pop culture entitlement.

[00:14:43] Cathy: It would, and just to add, just to like throw something in there to kind of shake it up a little bit. I really have read so much about that after.

[00:14:50] Cathy: ’cause you know, obviously Lori Laughlin ended up going to prison for a little bit, as did her husband and Felicity Huffman did too. Like they’ve, they’re all done with their sentences and we’re moving on. But I’ve read so much about it since then. And the unfortunate part is they, we look at them and we say what entitled people?

[00:15:08] Cathy: Those people are, yet they live. They live in a culture where they thought that was normal. They thought that was like paying for a tutor for the SAT. Now, I’m not saying we need to feel sorry for them, but they really were like, this guy, this guy who was selling this to them, who gave them these options, they knew other people who had used them.

[00:15:30] Cathy: They thought this was like just as typical. And now… We can question that when someone’s cutting and pasting your kid rowing when they’ve never rowed before, like, I think there are lines here where we’re like, okay, now you’re getting, you know, this is not somebody else’s fault. But it’s interesting depending on where we live, what we think we’re owed.

[00:15:50] Cathy: Because, like, for example, If you are in like some of the Chicago public schools, not all, but when I used to work in the Chicago public schools with, um, you [00:16:00] know, when I was a therapist and I would go in there and help with IEPs and stuff like that, there are certain schools that really couldn’t help administer that IEP.

[00:16:08] Cathy: They didn’t have enough staff to do it. They really didn’t. have the manpower or even the, um, you know, like enough social workers to like, make these things happen. And so sometimes you have kids in certain schools who aren’t getting, even if they’re in a public school, the, what they need to succeed. And then when you’re in maybe more of a wealthy community, With, you know, kit, you know, there’s more accessibility, things like IEPs or things like getting your needs met, we insist on it and we hire more staff and, and, you know, we have more of a voice in that.

[00:16:44] Cathy: And again, I’m not saying either is good or well, I know what’s good or bad. Like obviously we want all the kids in every area, including Chicago to have all their needs met. But I think some parents are like, it’s never, I’m never going to get my needs met. Like they don’t feel entitled to it because they know it’s not going to happen.

[00:16:59] Cathy: Whereas in certain communities, there’s a sense of of course this should happen. So I’m using that as an example of depending on where you live. Your expectations are different. Yeah. So for sure that could show up as

[00:17:10] Todd: entitlement. Well, and we live in a nice suburb of the, of Chicago. Chicago, and then there are, you know, plenty of places that are much wealthier than our Mm-Hmm.

[00:17:20] Todd: And plenty of, you know, if you’re in this country, even the poorest of the poor in this country is probably more wealthy than, more wealthy than the average. Person in the world. Correct. Because there’s so many things that, uh, but I just want to rattle off a few different examples that I wrote down and then you can go in any of the directions.

[00:17:37] Todd: Okay. Uh, apparently there’s some, there, there’s something on Instagram called the rich kids of Instagram. Oh boy. Like I’m trying to think of things that would really get me going. Yeah. Like stir me up. Like that sounds like a channel I probably wouldn’t want to spend much time in. I thought of, um, I’ll say in a heteronormative relationship, there’s, um, a culture where men think that if they take their, uh, [00:18:00] girlfriend out for dinner, uh, that they are owed certain things.

[00:18:04] Todd: That would be a sense of entitlement. Um, do we, uh, Do we feel like we deserve respect from younger people simply because we’re older? Yeah, that’s entitlement. That’s entitlement, right? Um, airlines. Like, okay, I need to get to my customer by three o’clock but there’s a four hour delay because there’s a mechanical thing.

[00:18:26] Todd: It’s really entitled for me to sit there and judge and complain when they’re just trying to keep me safe. Correct. Okay, um. So anyways, those are a few of my examples that I came up with. And the way

[00:18:37] Cathy: I look at it is I really use the common humanity piece with things like flights, because of course I want the flight to, and I get frustrated if it doesn’t, you know, take off when it’s supposed to, and I feel all the feelings everybody does, but when you think about common humanity, when you think about like, Everybody here needs to get somewhere.

[00:18:55] Cathy: Like when people are yelling at the ticket person saying, I need to get here and I was told. And I’m like, Hey buddy, we were all told. We all paid for this ticket. We all expected to take, you know, so it’s when we feel this, like, it’s about me. Versus, and there’s nothing wrong with getting frustrated about it, that’s human behavior, but when we start putting our anger on someone else, saying, I deserve to get somewhere, I don’t care about all these other people.

[00:19:21] Cathy: Yeah, I feel

[00:19:21] Todd: like customer service, like I’m thinking of waiters and waitresses, airline, uh, you know, people at the, at the little kiosk getting you to check into your plane. Right, oh, what they have to

[00:19:32] Cathy: deal

[00:19:32] Todd: with in a day. I can’t imagine. I can’t imagine, because it’s just like. Breeds entitlement. Right. And I also want to wave my hand there’s times, but usually even when I’m really kind of like mad or grumpy that I’m not going to get to where I want to go or the food comes out cold or whatever, you know, it’s usually the person I’m talking to is not the person that’s responsible for it.

[00:19:51] Todd: So you don’t want to take it out on this other person that had nothing to do with the mechanical thing on the plane or had nothing to do with my steak being cold.

[00:19:59] Cathy: So these are [00:20:00] examples right here. These are real life examples that our children watch. So they notice when we’re driving, if we’re calling everybody else on the road, jerks, they notice how we treat waiters, waitresses, customer service, flight attendants, um, other people that we pass by.

[00:20:15] Cathy: They, they. They are watching what we believe. And again, it’s very different. Like this is where, you know, we kind of walk this balance beam of, it’s very different than believing that you should get what you paid for or whatever. Like, for example, if something happened, I could totally see Todd and I doing this.

[00:20:33] Cathy: Like if something happened with a flight or it didn’t take off on time, or They, um, you know, canceled it all together and we had to figure things out. I could see us calling the airline when we got home and being like, we need some kind of refund for what just happened. Yeah. But it’s, it’s less about entitlement, more about we didn’t get from you what we said.

[00:20:50] Cathy: You can ask for a refund

[00:20:51] Todd: without being a jerk.

[00:20:52] Cathy: Correct. And same thing with, you know, when your food comes out colder, it’s wrong. Um, you know, we were just at brunch yesterday and the, our friend that we were with, his came out wrong. And at first he questioned it and then it became a thing and he was like, you know what?

[00:21:06] Cathy: This is fine. I, he’s like, I’m actually fine with this. And I loved that. I loved that. I mean, he’s like, yeah, this is good. You know, like at first he asked, like, is this really what I ordered? Like, it’s okay to ask for what you need, but there’s also a point where you’re like, you know what, this isn’t

[00:21:21] Todd: that big of a deal.

[00:21:21] Todd: Once again, it’s not what it’s how, what energy are you trying to get your needs met? And if you’re just being. If you’re trying to villainize the other, then that’s not a good thing. And I

[00:21:33] Cathy: think with our kids, it’s not just, so the huge thing is, is our behavior in those situations. Like how do we treat people?

[00:21:39] Cathy: How do we respond to people? How do we talk about people? And then it’s also having conversations about that. You don’t have to be like, did you notice how I talked to you? You don’t have to be so like teachy about it, but it is. Interesting in those situations to point out what you just said, where if you’re with your kids and the waiter brings out something and it’s wrong or they have to change it or it’s cold, [00:22:00] saying to the kids, you know what, I know it’s not our waiter’s fault that that happened, there’s a lot going on and it may not be anyone’s fault, but I just need to at least say this because, you know, I would like to have the food I want, but you like kind of temper the experience with your kids where you give them all sorts of viewpoints.

[00:22:15] Cathy: And I think those things can be, I think those are the things that create a sense of compassion and understanding for other people, a wider

[00:22:23] Todd: lens. I think we had a, a episode where we could, you and I both could have been entitled and I’ll say it real quick. One of our kids is in speech and they get these critiques and the critique came back as if she did a very good job, but she got ranked like last or whatever.

[00:22:39] Todd: Um, and I think you and I are both like, you know, whatever, whatever. It’s fine. But there, there was like a part in me like, no, no, no, she, there was a mistake here and I need my kid to be recognized properly. Right. Um, so I just think that that was an easy way for her.

[00:22:54] Cathy: I think that was an interesting discussion with her because I don’t think you, you may have thought that, but you didn’t say anything like that.

[00:23:01] Cathy: Like, we don’t need anything to change. This is just like one tournament’s an experience. And I even think that’s a, not that I would create that experience for her, but that’s a good experience for her. Something, sometimes things get mixed up. Like we were at Dominician Chris’s last night and I was saying that like one time in the, you know, park district, this is when I was like in third grade, I won the checkers competition and I was supposed to get a trophy.

[00:23:22] Cathy: And then when it was time for the trophies. The kid that I beat won the trophy and I was like, this is very confusing.

[00:23:29] Todd: That’s what I say. What was that kid’s name?

[00:23:30] Cathy: I don’t even remember because it was all the schools together. Like I didn’t know, I knew my school, but, and I remember being like stunned because I had been told, oh, you won, you know, and then.

[00:23:41] Cathy: I don’t remember if I talked to my parents about it or whatever, but I kind of felt like there was a, maybe this is now my adult perspective. I don’t know if I felt this way in third grade, but I understood there was probably something like it. Sometimes things can get dropped or information doesn’t get passed along.

[00:23:56] Cathy: Like there’s, there. And that, it doesn’t [00:24:00] always feel fair, but it’s an interesting experience to have. That’s where I was going.

[00:24:04] Todd: Yeah. The idea of fairness. Yeah. And there are times when we are treated unfairly. Correct. And does that mean we have to kind of roll over and just take it and say, well, that’s just the way it is?

[00:24:15] Todd: Maybe sometimes. And then there’s other times where you can stand up and try to get your needs met. Yeah. But it depends on how you go about. Getting those needs met.

[00:24:23] Cathy: Yeah. And, and you, and there’s boundaries around it. You know, like we have our own boundaries about no one’s going to treat me that way.

[00:24:29] Cathy: That’s important, but there’s also boundaries around if I push this too far, this could become an issue. My kid may have, you know, have to deal with the repercussions of this, or I may lose my job. Like we have to have this, this lens about understanding the gray area here. Things are not black and white.

[00:24:46] Cathy: It’s not either right or wrong. It’s like, there are things. So.

[00:24:49] The Importance of Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

[00:24:49] Cathy: The place I want to go with this, because this is kind of the, where I think we really have to understand with our kids, because all those things you and I just talked about were more like role modeling situations, is the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation.

[00:25:03] Cathy: Because I think a lot of times we don’t realize what we’re teaching when we’re teaching it. And in no, you know, there’s no need to feel guilt about it. It’s just kind of this awareness we can have where if we, when our kids are little, if we are like, no, I’m going to dress you and I need to make your hair look great.

[00:25:22] Cathy: Or, you know, You have to act this way or you need to look a certain way and we’re, we’re somewhat demanding about that and then we send them out in the world. We are teaching them that the external is more important because the kid may say, well, this dress isn’t comfortable or these shoes aren’t, aren’t right.

[00:25:40] Cathy: Or this doesn’t feel like me or I would never wear this. And we’re like, no, no, no, you have to look this way. Yeah. So we are teaching them extrinsic feedback. Is more important than intrinsic, that we’re more interested in, in the appearance than what we’re

[00:25:58] Todd: feeling. Would you [00:26:00] think that grades, like literally the letter grade that they get at the end of a semester, I would even, and tell me, and you may be like, no, it’s, it’s really not where we’re going.

[00:26:10] Todd: I even think that’s extrinsic, really the intrinsic. Motivation and you might some people might be like, you know rolling their eyes is what are you learning in this class? And I feel like if you are most concerned and you know, I went through school I just wanted to get good grades. So I’m not like preaching but really the intrinsic motivation comes from Wanting to learn whatever’s in that subject and not getting the A or the B or the C or the D or the F.

[00:26:34] Cathy: Well, I think it’s really important in conversations with our kids about this because if we focus on all A’s and we don’t have a lot of conversations, it’s just the expectation, then that means our kids are going to do everything they can to get an A. And what I mean by that is those choices may not always be good.

[00:26:50] Cathy: They may cheat. They may lie about things, they may, because their goal is not what’s going on inside them, it’s the end result. They’re like, I have to get an A versus more of a growth mindset, you know, Carol Dweck’s, you know, growth mindset idea, which is the whole goal of learning is what you just said.

[00:27:10] Cathy: What am I learning about? How is this teaching me how to study like what I see, um, what I’ve experienced with My own children is sometimes they do get a bad grade on a test and then they have, then they’re forced to figure something new out. Like, how do I study this different? Or how do I ask for help?

[00:27:26] Cathy: Or, or what am I, what am I learning in this process? Like what, or what should I not be doing? You know, like it’s very different to study for an essay test than it is a multiple choice test, you know, that kind of thing. And so the whole idea of getting like a lower grade is actually a helpful, is helpful information to them.

[00:27:43] Cathy: It pushes them in the right direction. But if they’re, if they are afraid. If they’re fearful of it, then they’re not in growth mindset. They just want an absolute, you know, they, they just, they don’t want to share with you where, what they’re experiencing. They just want to [00:28:00] show you a final grade. Can I give

[00:28:01] Todd: you an example?

[00:28:02] Todd: I actually looked up in my notes because I learned about Carol Dweck’s work through The Gift of Failure by Jess Leahy. And um, in that book, um, there’s this thing where they gave a bunch of kids. Uh, a test and they separated, they all got about an 80 percent on it and one half of the kids who got an 80 percent they said, uh, wow, 80 percent that’s a really good score.

[00:28:24] Todd: You must be really smart at this. Right. And then the intrinsic motivation, the thing. So in other words, if there’s parents like, okay, great, Todd and Kathy, how do we do this? You want to appreciate the effort. So instead of saying you got a good grade, you say, wow, you got eight right. That’s a really good score.

[00:28:42] Todd: You must have worked really hard. And you’re like, well, what’s the difference? And as, as far as I can tell, Carol Dweck is saying that’s, that’s all of the difference. Praising the outcome is going to create extrinsic motivation. Praising the work that you put into it. is what creates the intrinsic

[00:29:01] Cathy: motivation.

[00:29:02] Cathy: Correct. And the intrinsic motivation where you’re not then having to deal with shame and fear. And you also feel like you can take more risks and try more things and trust yourself and trust your gut. Like it gives you yourself back. Because kids who are very focused on extrinsic, they’re not concerned about, they’re less concerned about what’s going on inside of them.

[00:29:24] Cathy: And they’re more concerned about What they look like. So, for example, a lot of stuff, and again, this goes in a lot of different directions, um, but we’re very focused on our kids wanting things. Like, they know all the brand names, they do the OOTD, they do the GR, um, WM. I know what you’re talking about right now, by the way.

[00:29:42] Cathy: The OOTD is Outfit of the Day. Oh, okay. Thank you. And so people, so influencers will stand in front of their camera and they’ll say, These earrings are Chanel. This skirt is Revolver. These shoes are Golden Goose. These, you know, uh, bracelets are Hermès. Yeah. [00:30:00] And they know. all these brands and they’re choosing these brands and occasionally they’ll be like, Oh, and this necklace is Amazon, you know, but they throw it in kind of as like, aren’t I quirky?

[00:30:10] Cathy: I have an Amazon necklace, you know? Um, so they, so they’re saying all these brands. And so our kids know what these brands are. Now, I think our generation kind of did too, because we were watching TV and advertising and pop culture was big, but. Let’s quadruple that for this generation. So sometimes when we look at our kids, we’re like, Oh my God, how do they know all these brands?

[00:30:31] Cathy: Because they’re getting bombarded with it every day. Like we can’t blame them for what they’re seeing and what the culture is sending to them. What we can talk about though, is the reality of those experiences. Like if you get these shoes, Will you feel like a different person? Will it actually create a sense of belonging?

[00:30:51] Cathy: Because again, fitting in and belonging are two different things. And, but if we’ve been teaching our kids all along that the way they look is the most important thing, then of course, they’re going to want the things that make them look a certain way. Like we, we have to put these pieces together where we’re like, Oh, you know, or if we are like, I will only buy a dress if it’s this kind, or I will only, you know, Spend money on something.

[00:31:14] Cathy: I will only have this huge ring, you know, like if we are, if we are living that way, I don’t know why we’re so surprised that our kids think that’s cool too, like, it’s like, we want them to be different than, than we’re, what we’re showing them. And again, kids don’t learn by listening to what we say. They learn by watching how we live.

[00:31:32] Cathy: And especially if we start putting a lot of our own internalized shame about it on them. Why would you like that so much when actually we do too? You know?

[00:31:41] Todd: Well, that’s the ownership. Like we got to own our own sense of entitlement or, um, I just want to like quickly just build on that Carol Dweck example because I’m looking at my notes from however long ago.

[00:31:52] Todd: So the next day… So you have Bucket A, the kids who were praised for the grade, Bucket B, the kids who were praised for the effort. [00:32:00] The next day they gave them more challenging questions, okay, so they made the test a little bit harder. The kids who were praised for the grade did the same or a bit worse.

[00:32:09] Todd: The kids who were praised for their effort, they actually did better. There was an opportunity to do challenge questions at the end, like extra credit challenge questions. The kids who were, um, praised for the grade, they chose not to do the challenge questions and the ones who were praised for the effort did.

[00:32:29] Todd: And then they were supposed to like, write, um, Right, feedback to other students taking the test and what they got on the test and the kids who were praised for their grade Lied about their test score and the ones who were praised for the effort told the truth Yeah, so totally make sense yet another kind of concrete research based example of Praise the effort, not the outcome.

[00:32:54] Cathy: Yeah. And, and it makes more sense as far as our mental health. You know what I mean? Because we aren’t going to get all A’s on everything all the time. I know there are some kids who excel at a certain level and things are easier for them. I get that, but that’s not. Everybody. That’s not the average kid, you know?

[00:33:11] Cathy: Um, and we have to recognize that the whole goal is when you struggle, then what do you do? When you get a C or a D, then what do you do? It’s less about get A’s and hit this linear path where you’re never not succeeding. That’s, that’s, that’s not realistic. That’s not real life. Um, and I also think one of the most important things, one of the things I really focused on last week with the women I was talking to was when our kids want, because I’m going to go back to things, I’m taking it off grades for a second, when our kids want things like a new, um, you know, a certain Lululemon pants or certain shoes or whatever it may be.

[00:33:51] Cathy: I know we want to make them feel bad about it. Like, it’s like, we think that’s somehow going to make them not want it as much, but really all we’re doing is [00:34:00] again, creating shame. We’re saying, what’s wrong with you? Why would you like that? When really their whole, their whole culture is. Showing them this and all of the people that they follow on social media and everybody they watch on TV are wearing these things.

[00:34:14] Cathy: So what we can do is understand. It’s kind of like we’ve talked about this before with music, like you may not get the music they’re listening to, but you could listen to it and do your best to understand and ask questions. It’s the same as, and I’m saying, put this in air quotes, the stuff they want.

[00:34:30] Cathy: Learn about it. Now you don’t need to buy it. See, we always think if we, like, actually ask questions, then we’re, like, agreeing. Then we’re

[00:34:38] Todd: all in, and then we succumb to anything they want.

[00:34:41] Cathy: Correct. Versus actually becoming curious, then they know they can talk to you about it, and then their ears are more open to your thoughts about it.

[00:34:50] Cathy: Do you know what I mean? But if you jump in just with your thoughts of, like, you shouldn’t like that, or what’s wrong with your, uh, you know, what’s wrong with you, or… Don’t you know that I work so hard for this money? You know what? They don’t. Kids who are especially much younger, like middle school, they don’t understand bill paying and all those things.

[00:35:07] Cathy: We have this adult lens on kids where we’ll be like, don’t they see how I get up early every morning and go to work and we barely have, they don’t understand

[00:35:15] Todd: that. Well, we were just talking about this at breakfast yesterday, how like, you know, our 16 year old is driving a car to school and how I didn’t get a car until I was 26.

[00:35:24] Todd: Right. And there’s a part of me that wants to lecture, share how hard it was for me because I had to borrow a car or whatever. And the bottom line is, our kids, my kids, they don’t care. Well, and here’s

[00:35:40] Cathy: the thing, you can still share that story, but not with a tone of shame. It’s okay for you to say, because again, it’s not her car, it’s our car that she’s driving to school, right?

[00:35:51] Cathy: And so, she knows that. End. She also knows that, you know, it’s a privilege to have a car to drive to school and she had, we have a friend who lives [00:36:00] over by the school so she can park. Like, these are like big deals, right? And for you to say, It’s unbelievable that you can do this because when I was in high school, I didn’t have a car and, and it would have been made life a lot easier, you know, you can relate without because shaming would be like, well, I didn’t get a car.

[00:36:17] Cathy: And so then they’re kind of like, what do they do with that? Yeah, they’ll just tune out. It will not only they tune out, but it’s like a burden to them. Yeah. And again, you can’t, maybe they don’t have a car, they can drive to school and they need to understand that too. Like they, that. Some kids do have cars, you know, like that’s the thing is like we can talk about all the things that our kids have been privileged enough to have.

[00:36:37] Cathy: And I can also give you a list of things that our kids have not been able to have. And I think every family can do that, right? And the conversation about why they can’t have it is important too. It’s less about, I’m going to teach you a lesson, which feels inauthentic, and more about this is how much we have budgeted, or you can choose one of these three things, or put that on your birthday list, and you know, I have certain family members, maybe other people have this too, that are willing to buy bigger gifts, right?

[00:37:05] Cathy: And Todd and I went, I don’t know, like maybe 15 years with each of our kids without getting them any gifts at Christmas or birthday because other people were giving them so many, you know, family members that they were, there was no need, like they didn’t need more stuff. We were doing the party and, you know, they, like we, we were celebrating with them, but they didn’t need another thing from us.

[00:37:26] Cathy: I think now that they’re older. And they’re not getting gifts from other people because they’re older. Now you and I are a little more like, what’s a specialty item that you want? You know, what one thing do you want for your birthday kind of thing? But those are things that we, you know, like we have, we, we need to know in our family, our own boundaries around why we do what we do.

[00:37:47] Cathy: Because one of the moms last week pointed out to me, she’s like, I think since COVID, since kids really struggled during COVID and that parents felt a little more. Oh, like they need that. They didn’t know what was going [00:38:00] on with their kid or they were struggling with mental health issues or they were struggling to get back in school.

[00:38:04] Cathy: The parents did start buying more for their kids. This is, this was her perspective and she feels like we haven’t quite cycled out of that yet. So kids are showing up at school with 500 shoes and it’s the parents way of being like, I see you, I see you.

[00:38:18] Todd: Well, and it’s interesting because, um, most. So, there, I’m recalling back to when I read this book and there was the controlling parents, which are the ones that praise the grade and not the effort.

[00:38:31] Todd: And then they’re called autonomous, autonomy supportive parents, which is the more intrinsic building. Um, I’m just going to read a few of the control, what the behaviors of the controlling parents and just know that they’re done. Through a sense of love, right? So like it’s not like judging if you find yourself doing any of these things because you’re doing the best you can with what you have.

[00:38:50] Todd: But first one is controlling parents give lots of unsolicited advice and direction. You agree with that? Unsolicited. Unsolicited advice and direction. Controlling parents take over. You know, they say, I’ll do it. Yeah. You go play. You know, when they have to get to school, I’ll just do it myself when I get home, no.

[00:39:07] Todd: So, um, number three, controlling parents offer extrinsic motivators in exchange for behaviors.

[00:39:13] Cathy: Money for grades, um, you know, gifts for showing up at something, you know, if you, if you go to grandpa’s, I’ll buy you something, you know, that kind of stuff where we, instead of talking to them about why we show up for people or why we stay connected to family or you know, having a growth mindset when it comes to grades, we just do the external, which is do it and I’ll give you a present.

[00:39:37] Cathy: Yep.

[00:39:38] Todd: Controlling parents provide solutions or the correct answer before the child has had a chance to really struggle. That’s, that’s tough. That’s hard to let them struggle and depends on what the size or the nature of the struggle is, right? Controlling parents don’t let children make their own decisions.

[00:39:54] Cathy: Yeah, so like one of the stories, you know, I told last week, and this is a small one, you know, but it’s just an easy [00:40:00] example is like, um, one of my daughters for about a year and a half wore her coat backwards, wherever she went, um, you know, we’ve talked about this before, she just put her coat on backwards, she would put her arms in, and then the coat would be in, in the front, like the, you know, the hood would be over her face sometimes, and They’re, and that’s a really simple one, but I think a lot of parents would be like, it’s on wrong, turn it around, you know, like that’s not okay, or what are people going to think, or we get very focused on how we will be perceived as parents, when really, she really enjoyed it that way, it made her feel warm, it made her feel comfortable, and then she could cover her face when she wanted to, this is when she was little, and we just didn’t get involved in it, like it didn’t seem Like a thing that need we needed to worry about.

[00:40:41] Cathy: I thought it was kind of hilarious. And then she eventually didn’t want to do that. Like that shift, the thing that we have to remember for those of you listening who have little kids, they do all these things and then they start to when it can be fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, they start to get more child developmentally appropriately involved in what their peers think.

[00:40:59] Cathy: And they do start to dress similarly. And it’s funny because we sometimes. don’t support our kids in either way. Like our kids will be, we want them to dress a certain way or control what they wear. Or like we give them all this feedback about what looks good on them or what doesn’t. And then all of a sudden they get into middle school and they want certain clothes that their friends have.

[00:41:18] Cathy: And we’re like, why do you want to dress like your friends? Yeah. When really you’ve been telling them to assimilate. It’s this

[00:41:23] Todd: whole balance between we want our kids to conform and that we want them to be independent and creative, but then we want them to conform over here. But then we want them to be independent and make their own mark.

[00:41:34] Todd: And it’s really confusing and it’s all our

[00:41:38] Cathy: baggage. Well, one thing that I write about with girls is that the, and this is really interesting in the adolescent years, is that the two things that they want the most is to blend in. And to stand out, which are completely paradoxical, right? Like you, how do you do both of those things?

[00:41:56] Cathy: And they’re trying to figure out a way to like, you [00:42:00] know, there’s things you may see your kid do. Like they wear the, you know, I kind of call it the adolescent uniform where they have the yoga pants and then the half shirt and then like a, you know, a Like a, what is it called? Like a flannel shirt over it.

[00:42:12] Cathy: You know, like there’s certain outfits that all the girls wear, but then maybe they’ll try a certain pair of earrings or they’ll have different colored shoes. They’ll like try and do a little thing. They’re like, how do I fit in? But then how do I have, or maybe they’ll color their hair or do something different.

[00:42:27] Cathy: Well,

[00:42:27] Todd: and just like, uh, understand why we as human beings want to conform. We want to find a tribe that we can feel safe around. Yeah. And it makes, and we all. I can’t speak for everybody, but I’m guessing we all had that sense of conformity. I think it becomes easier to step out as you get older, don’t you think?

[00:42:47] Todd: For sure,

[00:42:47] Cathy: unless you’ve never become really conscious of it, or unless it’s been driven into you, because I definitely know women who still are like, you can’t go out without lipstick on, or, you know, you can’t go to this, you can’t go to school unless you’re showered wearing a dress. Or you can’t, there’s, there are certain people who really have this ingrained sense of you have to look a certain way to go out in the world.

[00:43:10] Todd: Well, here’s my example. I’m going to Scottsdale, Arizona with my friends in about a month. And this is the group of friends that like to just play games and drink beer. Sure. I love playing games. I love drinking beer. I used to be really scared of going home early, as you know, very well, sweetie. And now if, or when they’re like, okay, it’s midnight and let’s keep going to the next bar until two.

[00:43:34] Todd: I’m like, bye guys. And I might, I might want to go out until two, but my guess is I’ll probably want to go to bed around midnight. It’s just so. much easier for me to disappoint my friends because it’s simply not worth it. Well,

[00:43:47] Cathy: let’s dive into that. So when you didn’t go home before, which I was a big part of, because I was always like, can we be done?

[00:43:53] Cathy: Um, and how to be like, no, I gotta stay. I can’t be the first one to go home. What is that? Why? Like, and I don’t mean give me something [00:44:00] surfacy. Like you think what, if you go home, I’m

[00:44:02] Todd: going to miss out on the fun.

[00:44:04] Cathy: There’s, and then, and then what?

[00:44:07] Todd: Uh, if I miss out on the fun, then they won’t want to hang around with me.

[00:44:11] Cathy: Yeah. I mean, and that’s, you kind of jumped to that quickly, but that is really the thing is we think that we have to be a certain way to get the approval of other people. And to, we feel like we have to do some kind of tap dance to get love that if we go home early, the thing that now. I talk to my girls about this all the time.

[00:44:31] Cathy: They do sometimes stay out late and they do sometimes go home early. And the thing that they’ll say is they do have FOMO because like pictures will be posted that they’re not in. Or they’ll be like all these funny, you know, personal inside jokes came up when I was gone and now I don’t know those inside jokes.

[00:44:46] Cathy: We as parents can relate to that. Like When my girls have told me those things, I’m like, Oh, I know, it’s so annoying. You like leave and then everything happens after that. Right. And we can relate to their experience without saying, well, next time, stay out the whole time or you missed it or, or saying they shouldn’t do that to you.

[00:45:02] Cathy: Like all we have to do is relate and then our girls or our boys do not feel alone. in this experience. They, they understand that the experience they’re having is a common humanity experience and that they can share it with us and we’re not shoving it back in their faces as like a… They’re doing it wrong.

[00:45:21] Cathy: Yeah, they’re doing it wrong. Yeah. You know, or they should be doing it better when they’re watching us not do it better. Sure. I think that’s where, I mean, just… Talking about kids and teens. I think the things I can really tell parents why they get so annoyed at you. Like why do kids and teens get so mad at their parents because of hypocrisy?

[00:45:39] **Hypocrisy – Why your teen gets annoyed with you?

[00:45:39] Cathy: Yes. That’s what they do not like. They see it. They get it. And they are like, ugh, like gross. They, I mean, that’s really what they say all the time. Is if they have a parent who cannot relate and they see that their parent is doing something that they’re being told not to do or if they [00:46:00] have a parent who Is pretend around people like it’s great.

[00:46:04] Cathy: And then they get home and they’re totally grumpy and mean to everybody. They see this hypocrisy and it drives them crazy. So parents listening might say, well, then what do I do? You own things. You take responsibility for them. You even say, wow, I really had to be kind of fake with that person because I work with them and I had to kind of act like I’m feeling really good.

[00:46:24] Cathy: But really, you know, I’m really tired. Yeah, like you own. Or if you do something wrong, you apologize. Mm-Hmm. . If you misperceived something, you say, sorry, I misperceived that I was wrong about that. It’s our unwillingness to take responsibility and accountability for our own behavior that pushes our kids away from us.

[00:46:41] Cathy: Yeah. Because it it grosses them out. Yeah.

[00:46:43] Todd: Any final thoughts?

[00:46:45] Cathy: Um, let’s see.

[00:46:46] **The Role of Parents in Teaching Responsibility – How to get kids to get more involved in the home

[00:46:46] Cathy: I think that the last thing I would say, ’cause this, I’m saying this ’cause two parents asked this question. They talked about how do I get my kid to be more involved in the home because they, the parents were like, they seem entitled that I’m supposed to do their laundry.

[00:47:01] Cathy: I’m supposed to clean the house and they don’t contribute in any way. Totally understand this. I think this, all parents go through this. I think that we have to recognize that like the, the woman who asked me this question, she said, you know, I’m teaching my kid who’s 10 how to do laundry. And he keeps saying to me, why am I doing my laundry?

[00:47:19] Cathy: You’ve always done my laundry. And she was kind of annoyed, right? She’s like, well, it’s time to learn. Isn’t that a valid point? Like from the kid? You’ve always done my laundry. Why am I doing

[00:47:32] Todd: it now? When did we renegotiate

[00:47:34] Cathy: this agreement? So you can then talk to them about why you’re renegotiating instead of being pissed or thinking your kid’s entitled.

[00:47:40] Cathy: No, they haven’t had enough life experience to understand all this.

[00:47:43] Todd: No reason for them to think otherwise until you have a conversation with

[00:47:46] Cathy: them. Exactly. And be really careful of your tone when you do it. Cause you don’t want to be like, well, because. I think it’s time that you get your act together.

[00:47:53] Cathy: Like, you don’t need to come at them strong. You say, good question. I have been doing your laundry up to this point. Now I notice [00:48:00] that you are a responsible kid. And I realize that there’s a lot of things that you can do on your own that now you can be a part of this and take care of your own stuff. And, and I see this in you.

[00:48:10] Cathy: And the kid may be like, I don’t want to. And you’re like, I get it. It’ll take time. It takes. Time for kids to learn new behaviors. Well, that’s

[00:48:19] Todd: the thing. We’ve talked about this. We have, uh, I went through this. this time when I made sure that our kids were making their own lunches. Right. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:48:30] Todd: This is a good one. So they, because I don’t want kids thinking that they don’t have to make their own lunches before school or whatever.

[00:48:37] Cathy: And that was your take, my take, and what I would say to them. is it makes more sense for you to make your own lunch because you know what you want, you know how much cheese you want on your sandwich, you know.

[00:48:48] Cathy: And so I always kind of talk to them about not the, you need to make your own lunch because I’m not going to do it for you and more about why this makes sense because I feel like that sits better

[00:48:58] Todd: with them. Well, for sure. And I just need to own mine is I was afraid of us raising spoiled. little brats.

[00:49:05] Todd: Okay. So it was, okay, you’re going to start making your own lunch. And then once they did that for a while, they’re like, you know, it’s morning suck for a kid. Right. And now we’re, and even when our, our, we have two out of, out of high school, but we would make their lunches for them in high school because it’s something, it was like a deposit in the morning so that we could do it.

[00:49:28] Todd: So, but I needed for my own, sense of self to, to make sure that I, that these kids had the ability and the discipline and the work ethic to do it. Once I saw that, then I’m like, okay, now you Kathy convinced me to be like, can we just help them out a little bit? Well, and

[00:49:44] Cathy: again, nothing exists. It exists in a vacuum.

[00:49:47] Cathy: It’s not like you either make your lunch or you don’t. There’s all sorts of pieces here. When the girls were little, all they had to do was get up, put on clothes, put on shoes, and then make their lunch and go. When your kids get into middle school and high school, [00:50:00] there are all sorts of things they’re doing in the morning sometimes that are different.

[00:50:02] Cathy: You know what I mean? Like there, there’s a little more sometimes difficulty because of their age getting up, you know, so they’re not getting up as bright and shiny as they did when they were little. And sometimes they’re like getting something done or sometimes they’re like texting with someone who’s picking them up and they’re, they have a little more work, I’m putting this in air quotes, work to do in the morning.

[00:50:22] Cathy: And I see them doing all these things and my ability to recognize that and say, well, let me help you with this part then. It makes sense. I’m not. doing it to coddle, it makes sense.

[00:50:36] Todd: And I agree with you a hundred percent. Yeah. Devil’s advocate, just for fun. They’re going to be like, you know, I’m thinking like a dad’s like, yeah, but they got to figure out how to do their stuff the night before.

[00:50:45] Todd: So they’re not doing it in the morning. Sure. You know what I

[00:50:48] Cathy: mean? Well, because there were days when I didn’t do it for them because I was out the door or something was going on with another kid or I was traveling. So they do know how to make their lunch and, and. They also know that they can buy a piece of pizza at school if their lunch isn’t made.

[00:51:05] Cathy: Like we have a, we have plan A, plan B, plan C, and plan D, right? I just want to make sure they eat. And I think that, I think it’s, I think another thing we’re teaching our children is how to help other people. And there is a difference between I am going to do everything for you and be a helicopter parent and let me help you get out the door in the morning.

[00:51:26] Cathy: I think those are two very different things. Because I see my kids setting their own alarm, getting up, they’re getting dressed on their own, they’re doing their own homework, they’re figuring out their own ride, they’re figuring out their after school activities. So, I can make your lunch today. That’s… I just kind of view things in a very common sense way, and, and not, and to your point, Todd, part of the reason I was able to do that is because they went through such a long period of time where they were doing it on their own.

[00:51:52] Cathy: So I wasn’t concerned anymore. Are they capable of it? Right.

[00:51:56] Closing Remarks

[00:51:56] Cathy: I’m with you, babe. So I think that, um, [00:52:00] what we have to recognize with our kids is sometimes when we get frustrated that they’re not doing something, we want to quickly label it entitlement. And while you, someone listening may bring me an example where I’m like, okay, that is some entitlement, right?

[00:52:11] Cathy: We need to talk to them about that. I think a lot of it is them learning new skills and we have to be somewhat patient and understanding a of why they want what they want and the culture they live in. Okay. And not believe they should be like us as 80s kids. Like we didn’t, we’re having two completely different experiences.

[00:52:30] Cathy: If Todd and I haven’t hammered that home enough, where they’re not supposed to be like us, they’re different. So we have to, A, realize that we’re having different experiences and B, we have to talk about these things without shaming them. We, and not rolling our eyes and saying, Oh, your generation, because you are disconnecting immediately from them.

[00:52:49] Cathy: If you do that, because they’re not going to tell you

[00:52:51] Todd: things. Connection is food. It is. Um, yeah, I just wrote some notes from the podcast that we just, that we are recording right now. Intrinsic, extrinsic motivation. We talked about grades, controlling parents, conformity. Growth mindset. Growth mindset. Why our kids get annoyed at us.

[00:53:07] Todd: Um, so. Compassion. Compassion. Lunchmaking, household chores. So hopefully you got some, some good stuff out of that. I do want to thank Jeremy Kraft. He’s one of our, he is our sponsor from the very beginning. Can you believe that, 13 years? He’s a bald head of beauty and he does painting, remodeling throughout the Chicagoland area.

[00:53:28] Todd: Oh, there’s Jim. This is the end.

[00:53:33] Cathy: Is this how we end shows now?

[00:53:35] Todd: Until you come up with another song, babe.

[00:53:38] Cathy: Oh, I, it was supposed to be my turn.

[00:53:40] Todd: Yeah, well you, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna… Okay, I’ve got one

[00:53:43] Cathy: for you. Oh, well,

[00:53:44] Todd: it’s gotta be for next week. Are you sure? No, go ahead, what is it? And while I’m pulling it up, I just want to say, Jeremy’s, uh, he’s painting and remodeling, uh, avidco.

[00:53:53] Todd: net 6309561800. If you need any work done in the Chicagoland area, give him a call. Uh, okay. Alright, [00:54:00] I see how it is. This is the

[00:54:02] Cathy: one I thought of last week. I was like, oh,

[00:54:03] Todd: that’s a good end. All right. Here we go, babe. This one’s for you.

[00:54:11] Cathy: So I sat it.

[00:54:18] Todd: It’s pretty good. It’s not as good as the darts though.

[00:54:21] Cathy: Closing time, open

[00:54:24] Todd: all the doors and let you out

[00:54:27] Cathy: into the world. It’s a little more optimistic than this is the end. Take it easy.

[00:54:34] Todd: Um, have a good week everybody. Buy a, buy a ticket for the conference. Join Team Zen. Yeah. I want to get to the chorus.

[00:54:45] Todd: One last call for alcohol so finish

[00:54:48] Cathy: your whiskey or beer. Closing time.

[00:54:55] Todd: You don’t have to go home but you can’t stay here.

[00:55:05] Cathy: Won’t you take me home? I know you won’t. Won’t you take me home? I know you won’t.