ZPR#728 – ADHD in Gender Full Episode Transcript – DOWNLOAD
Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number. How’s your headphones, sweetie?
Cathy: Just turn ’em off just a little bit ’cause I
Todd: can’t hear you very well. Not in my ears. I’ll do that in a second. Okay. This is podcast number 720. 8. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio?
Todd: Because you’ll feel outstanding. And always remember our motto, which is that the best predictor of a child’s well being is a parent’s self understanding. On today’s show, Cathy’s got a hot take. She’s got an update. We’re going to talk about ADHD and how it shows up in men and women. And And a few other things.
Todd: I first want to just say we last week announced that Cathy and I are re activating our Zen Parenting in person weekend events. Are they re activating? Yeah. Uh… Wondertrends. 2024 Wondertrend powers activate! Form of… Eagle. Shape of water. Correct.
Cathy: One was, one was like, versions of water, right? And the other could be animals.
Todd: That’s right. But she was always water. It was kind of painful. She was ice sometimes. I know, but there’s just not a lot you can do. Was she ever steam? I don’t know. That’s a good, that’s a good question. But as we share with that, I’m going to… Is she a vapor? Meanwhile… At the Hall of Justice.
Cathy: It’s the trouble alert. Oh no, it’s we’re still having those. Yeah, we are. you talking about?
Cathy: Shaper and Eagle. Eagle.
Todd: Form of Water. Yeah. Yeah,
Cathy: he was always water. So I had them mixed up. He was the animal. He was the fish. She got the good job. He’s like, he’s like, and this time I’ll be water. Anybody.
Todd: then she would carry him around in a bucket. Anybody born after 1980 has no idea what we’re talking about.
Todd: Well, they’re cool, they know. There’s this cartoon called Super Friends and Batman was on it, Superman, I guess it was a DC thing. DC, yeah. And they had these Wonder Twins and it was like, they were a little bit younger than everybody. They did a fist pump.
Cathy: And they had a fist pump. A fist pump
Todd: to activate.
Todd: But she was always an eagle and he was always water. Always an eagle, she
Cathy: was other things.
Todd: She’s always carrying a bucket of water with her twin brother. Okay. Let’s go.
Cathy: All right. So we’re talking about this Zen Parenting 2024, which is our, as Todd said, we have reactivated our in person event. And so he said, okay, how can we narrow this down?
Cathy: Three things. Number one, best speakers ever. We’re talking about teens. And I’m telling you, we have, we are covering like the vast majority of the topics, of course. We’re not gonna be able to cover every single thing, but if you have a teen, these are the things you’re thinking about. Screens, you’re thinking about you know, eating disorders, you’re thinking about LGBTQ, sexual identity, gender identity, you’re thinking about how to be, You know, how to be conscious when it comes to communicating.
Cathy: You’re thinking about their relationships. You’re thinking about sex ed. You’re thinking about neurodiversity. You’re thinking about anxiety, anxiety, and we actually even have a speaker who’s going to talk about what human trafficking really is, because I think there’s been some misunderstandings about what it is.
Cathy: And there’s a lot of conspiracy theories around it when really it is a thing. But I think we We need to have a better understanding of how teens get targeted and why so that we’ve got some really interesting speakers and there is limited seating this year. We have a new venue that is awesome, but smaller.
Cathy: So you have to, you know, a lot of people would come up to the end and be like, can I come now? Yeah. Answers no. And the answer is no. So get it now. You, we, it’s not about we’re shutting it off to like promote sales. We literally have. Even the capacity that we have, we’ve pushed it. Yeah. Does that make sense?
Cathy: Yeah, we’ve already, yeah. We’ve already kind of pushed that line. So just, you have to get your ticket now.
Todd: It’s January 26th and 27th at the Hilton in Oak Brook Hills, actually Oak Brook, Illinois. Which is outside of Chicago. If you want to see the speakers, go to the link that I’m including in these show notes and you’ll be able to watch the little YouTube montage of our previous speakers and it announces our upcoming speakers.
Todd: And while you’re there, go ahead and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We’re shooting to break a hundred sometime soon.
Cathy: I know we had to start over with our YouTube channel. So we’re like, we literally starting over.
Todd: We put a lot of effort. Brad puts a lot of effort into these awesome clips that show up.
Todd: If anybody uses YouTube that you, if you are in our algorithm, or if we’re in your algorithm, you’ll see a bunch of like smaller kind of cool clips from our podcast. So
Cathy: Todd uses YouTube the way I use TikTok or Instagram reels. Like he scrolls through YouTube clips.
Todd: Well, they know me and they just like last night.
Todd: So we’re recording this on September 11th. Even though it’s, we’re not posting it till next week, till the 19th. But it knows what I want to see. I, I did not see the U S open. tennis and it just knows that I want to see the highlights. So I watched the highlights last night. So I love how they know who I am.
Cathy: Yeah. I have to be very careful with my algorithms. Cause if I stop on something that is like, like last night I was watching and I stopped on a dog that had been rescued and I usually, I am. I love animals. I love them. But I’m not always looking at dogs. But all of a sudden my algorithm turned into all dogs.
Cathy: So and true crime. I love true crime. And all of a sudden there’s all these murder stories. So I kind of have to be super careful. But anyway, go watch our montage too of our previous conferences. Because if you don’t know, if you are new to Zen Parenting Radio, you have to see who used to be, who, who used to, they still do but who has been at our conferences in the past.
Cathy: Like, we’ve had some. We’ve done it five years, so this will be our sixth year and, you know, they’re just amazing. So if you want to kind of see where we’ve been and where we’re going, you should watch that video.
Todd: Please do. And then just really quick regarding Team Zen it’s a 25 bucks a month.
Todd: It’s What, what are you, what are you, why are you… The thing! I know, it’s, it’s up here somewhere. Because I think when you start with… Join the circle!
Cathy: When you start with money, I think people tune out.
Todd: That’s the first thing I want to know.
Cathy: I mean, you know what? This is you and I. This is the difference between you and I.
Todd: And I’m better. Join the circle. It’s a Team Zen membership platform. It’s an app with Zen parenting Radio’s complete parenting content collection, plus live talks all in one place. 25 bucks a month canceled at any time.
Cathy: Todd did not use his hands while doing that.
Todd: No, I did not. And this week coming up, there’s a micro community on raising healthy sons.
Todd: Nice. I am leading a discussion on the Barbie movie talking about femininity, masculinity.
Cathy: Last week I did a Women’s Circle because I do one every month.
Todd: Yeah, so there’s just some things that are coming up this exact week. So now let’s pivot over to your hot take.
Cathy: Okay. So it’s funny. My hot take is actually from TikTok and Reels and probably it’s on YouTube as well.
Cathy: And it’s this thing that has been going on for years. It’s not brand new, but it’s so prevalent. And I kind of. In my mind, every time I’m like, why are we here? So it’s called GRWM, hashtag GRWM. It stands for get ready with me. Okay. What get ready with me means is I’m going to put my makeup on while I talk to you.
Cathy: Okay. So this is obviously I’m being very gender specific. Actually. Some men though, do this too. They put on their makeup you know, while they’re getting ready, but I, it’s, you know, typically women, girls, a lot of college students, a lot of, you My hot take about it is that it’s so prevalent, like everybody is doing it now where I’m kind of like, we’re, we’re all like, and here’s why I focus on it.
Cathy: The amount of serums that people are putting on their face. We need to relax. So I have a question.
Todd: Yeah. Is GRWM, they’re like teaching you what they put on their face? So, okay. So are they just talking about something different while they’re getting ready?
Cathy: There’s a mixture. Okay. So I think when it first started, there was actually, there’s this person who kind of gets credit for this from a few years ago who said, and it might’ve been a guy, but anyway, it was like a get ready with me.
Cathy: And I’m going to put on makeup and I’m going to talk to you about something else. Now, why is that appealing to the brain? Because you’re kind of watching. So for the person speaking, it can help them focus because they’re not just staring at a screen. They’re actually doing something else and they’re talking.
Cathy: And so there’s a little more fluidity to their conversation. So that’s part of it. The other part is for people who really like to look, there’s like a I’m trying to think of a word for it, but where you like to look at that. It’s like, it’s not AMSR. Is that the? ASMR. But it’s kind of got that vibe where you’re hearing all the clicks and all the, you know, opening of the makeup and the rubbing, like there’s something to it that makes you feel kind of calm.
Cathy: So, and then, so, but. Because people do this, obviously makeup companies are getting in on it and they’re like, use my product so you can promote my product. So a lot of times they’ll say, Oh, by the way, this is by Bobby Brown and this is this color. I love it. So like they’re selling in the midst of doing, get ready with me.
Todd: Can I, can I do my first official GRWM with you live right now? Sure. All right. Let’s just pretend I woke up. I’m going to take my headphones off. Great. My headphones are off. Take your glasses off. You don’t have those in the morning. My my glasses. No, you do not. Ready? Ready. Here we go.
Cathy: Okay. Okay. Glasses on.
Cathy: Hat on.
Todd: Get ready with me. I’m ready. I’m ready for the day.
Cathy: So, if you guys want to see how fascinating that was, you have to go to YouTube because it was pretty extensive.
Todd: Mine my GRWM wouldn’t be that long.
Cathy: No. Well, you are also male and society doesn’t expect you to put on makeup. I know. And to do all the things that women do.
Cathy: So we don’t wanna make it like you do it. Right. And we do it wrong. Yeah. ’cause society tells us we have to do this. Mm-hmm. . And even though many I’d say vast majority of the time I do not wear makeup. But when I go out, I do, you know, because I want to, you know, do that.
Todd: Well, it’s so funny. I might get into trouble here.
Cathy: Uh oh. See, I’m so nervous sometimes with you.
Todd: Because you say society says, and I agree with you, there’s a culture of death, cultural conditioning. Blah, blah, blah. But I remember us doing a podcast a long time ago when we, we kind of criticized the idea of, well, society says, Sure, of course. So do you remember that take that you had on, like, we are society?
Cathy: Correct. We, so there’s many different layers to these conversations because, of course, if I’m in a really introspective or even going the other route, academic or whatever place, I can talk about how society is us, so we need to change, and there’s all these layers. But the truth is, Todd, is when women go out in the world, they are judged by how they look.
Cathy: And you judge women because you decide if women are pretty or not. And a lot of times they’re pretty because they’re wearing makeup and doing their hair. If I walked around the house every day, 24, seven, all the time, just you’re going to go, no, I’d love it that way. But in a ponytail, I never did my hair.
Cathy: I never did makeup. You may be like, okay. You know, where’s, can we, can we take it up a notch? You may not, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but I think sometimes we’re, we’re, my favorite, my favorite, my favorite is we actually played it at a conference a few years ago. It’s that Amy Schumer parody.
Cathy: It’s from her show Inside Amy Schumer. And she did this thing using kind of a, a parody of you don’t know, you know, you, what’s the song beautiful. You don’t know you’re beautiful. Okay. So One Direction. And so they don’t use that song, but they use a version of it where they’re saying to the girl, take your makeup off.
Cathy: And then she takes it off and they’re like, Oh, whoa, put your makeup back because society, you know, men or other.
Cathy: Oh yeah. So is she wiping it off right now? Yeah. Okay. So just wait till till this part. The girl we spoke to soon put this whole no makeup tone, trying to change my mind on the makeup thing. You’ll be the hottest girl in the nation with just such a foundation. Girl, I can’t be seen with the ghost from the legs.
Cathy: No. Didn’t know that your lashes were so Stu a. Now, please listen.
Todd: Just get up an
Todd: earlier and you can make yourself much earlier,
Cathy: much earlier. Okay. That thing makes me laugh so hard.
Todd: Well, and you gotta, and I’ll include this YouTube clip in our show notes because the visual is as good as the words of the song.
Cathy: It’s perfect. Because that’s the thing is that song, you know, you don’t know you’re beautiful. It’s [00:13:20] like, And you do this too, Todd, but I do believe you because I live with you where you’re like, I just like girls natural. And if they just were like themselves, and if you really saw women not do makeup, cause a lot of women like go to yoga, but they still do foundation or they’ll put their hair in a perfect ponytail.
Cathy: Like there’s a lot of, you know, there’s a lot of doing up. You look like you didn’t do anything.
Todd: I am 100 percent on board with the double standard. Yes. I’m totally on board that we that guys get off easy on how they present. I also, there’s that part in This is 40 where Leslie Mann’s character is so mad because she says something like as we get older We we are not as attractive and as men get older they get more attractive And I think like that
Cathy: and knocked up or this is for it is a knock Yeah, cuz I think it’s when she can’t get into the bar
Todd: No, like Harrison Ford is a good example.
Todd: Like, you know, I think
Cathy: George Clooney, Brad Pitt
Todd: and women are held up to a completely different standard. So I’m not I’m not Trying to be the other side of this argument. I’m totally on board with you. I just when we say society. Yes, and there’s like let’s change it.
Cathy: Well, and it’s cultural conditioning is what it is is that I I’m writing about all this right now like it’s a very for one human for one person to take that on and then go into the world and say I’m not good and plenty of people do this I go like I said, I go into the world 80 percent of the time with no makeup on like it’s not and I have a ponytail and I and it’s not a big deal. There’s also these other great tic tacs of like once you get to a certain age you go out in your pajamas. You’re like whatever so it’s not about we need to look gorgeous all the time and put on a facade. It’s that if I’m going to like if you had a if you had a big event for men living or for your work, I’m not gonna show up in a ponytail and there’s an expectation of that women, You know, do a little and so, so anyway, I’m going to get back to my hot take.
Cathy: Yeah. So, you know, get ready with me. My hot take is less about stop doing this because I understand people like it. It just cracks me up how many there are. Like, I, everybody’s like, watch me get ready. And then I’m going to talk to you about, you know, what’s going on in my relationships. It’s funny to me.
Cathy: But the thing that I’m like astounded by is the amount of serums people are putting on their face and the amount of layers of makeup. Like, they’re, and I’m not, I understand makeup, you know, we just went through that whole thing with cultural conditioning, but it’ll be like, here’s a stick that I put all over my face.
Cathy: Then I’m going to put a different contour. Then I’m going to put a bronzer. Then I’m going to put the actual foundation. Now I’m going to put the powder. I’m like, people, relax.
Todd: Can I weigh in real quick? Please. You use the word serums. And for some reason, when I think of serums, I think of rattlesnake bites.
Todd: Well, I. I. So I wasn’t aware of that serums were something that we did to our face. And my other hot take on top of your hot take is my daughters and my nieces sometimes go into whatever, what’s that store? They love Sephora and most people’s faces. Now I know when you get near teenage years, you get acne and all that, but their faces are so young, young and beautiful.
Todd: And they’re doing anti aging. They’re doing these. Things I’m like, what are you guys doing? Like, wait until you’re 65. I know. You don’t need this. And I blame Kim Kardashian and all the other, it’s the industry.
Cathy: You know, she’s one of the people, but it’s the industry. Every, every big person has a makeup line now, including, you know, Selena Gomez and Lady Gaga, and you know, everybody has a makeup line. And in the makeup line, how do you sell more makeup? You say, I remember doing this even when I was young, like even before all this stuff came along, it was like, if you’re going to buy Pantene shampoo, you need the Pantene hairspray and you need the Pantene leave in conditioner and you need the Pantene mousse.
Cathy: And you know, I’m doing 80s here, but you want to get the whole line. And now with makeup, there’s this whole line. Where I, but what I’m, and I’m being a mom here, but you don’t need those, like, honestly, when you really talk to people who understand skin and it be, it be dermatologists or whatever, you need to wash your face and put on moisturizer.
Cathy: And I understand for people who are doing some anti aging or maybe doing some things, there’s a few other things they want to do. It’s less about I’m judging it and more about, I, I think we’re selling Gen Z and millennials like a box of rocks. Right. Like I don’t, I think this is like not, they don’t need it.
Cathy: Right. But I think they also think it’s fun. Because it makes them feel good and they enjoy the process. So my hot take is I’m kind of like in the middle. I understand, but I’m also like, I want to say to these kids, you don’t, and I don’t mean you don’t need it because you’re young. You literally don’t need it. Like it’s not doing what you think it’s doing. Right.
Todd: Before we get into the main topic I just wanted to I think I’m about to really annoy a lot of our listeners. I’m going to play something that you and I have been singing to ourselves and to each other for the last week. I’m scared.
Cathy: Oh, oh no, you’re going to put it in everybody’s head.
Todd: I just want to apologize. It’s an earworm. It’s an earworm. So I’m trying to pull up these candy bar commercials from the 80s. Cathy, you actually just sent this to me, but I couldn’t come up with a good example, like Snickers and Twix. And, you know, they were like… We knew them by heart. Good commercials, right?
Todd: And then all of a sudden Cathy sends me this thing on Instagram or TikTok. And it’s for Nestle White
Cathy: Chocolate. Well, before you started, it’s the reason it made me laugh is it says, my children ask me, were the eighties dramatic? Yeah. And I say this,
Cathy: it’s for a chocolate bar.
Cathy: Three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve,
Todd: thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, I’m going to play that intermittently throughout the podcast for the next two years.
Cathy: We’ve been singing it a lot and I’ve been passing it to people who are like, why are you giving that to me? Cause now I’m singing it.
Cathy: First of all, the reason we’re singing is we remember it. Like when, when I listened to it, I knew every word to it. I remember it. And then when you think about these were the things we watched, this is just one. Like just a lot of better sound quality.
Todd: White chocolate. I feel like it’s a romance novel
Cathy: song. Well, it is. I want to say something inappropriate, but I
Todd: They got like the background vocals.
Cathy: Like a Rolling Stone song.
Todd: So sorry. If you, first of all, if you remember that commercial, that’s awesome. I do remember. Hello, Gen Xer. Yeah. So anyways, that’s my other thing. So we’re 20 minutes in
Cathy: and it blends into what we’re talking about. And the quick update is, a couple weeks ago we were talking about HSP.
Cathy: We were talking about highly sensitive people. And one of the questions you asked me was, you said, what is the overlap between highly sensitive people and autism? And I was like, I don’t know, but I know people talk about it more. And so I did a bunch of reading and this is basically what. We came up with so since so highly sensitive people falls under sensory processing sensitivity.
Cathy: Okay, so SPS, I know I’m going to do a lot of acronyms, but being a highly sensitive person, you are you, you have sensory processing differences. Okay. And I wouldn’t even call them difficulties. They’re just different. So basically there’s. There is like, you know, everything feels a little bit stronger because you just, you take in information differently.
Cathy: Okay. So it’s, so just so we know being a highly sensitive person is to, it’s in about 20 percent of the population and it’s not considered a disorder. It’s not something that is diagnosed. Cause that was another question you asked me. Okay. Where autism, the Autism Spectrum Disorder, it’s a neurodevelopmental condition.
Cathy: So it’s affecting more things. That’s why it’s different. Because it affects social, communication, behavior, and sensory processing. So it’s just this SPS, sensory processing. That, or being a highly sensitive person is just a piece of that. So they’re not the same. Okay. That’s, I just wanted to give that update.
Cathy: Cool. Okay.
Cathy: So let’s talk about this. So Todd and I have been talking, I feel like this has been a discussion for a while just because of some articles that came out and some friends of ours that are experiencing this. But what we know now, if you, if everybody didn’t know this already, is when it comes to ADHD, which stands for um attention deficit and highly, or hyperactive, hyperactive.
Cathy: Wait a second. Wait a second. Just hold on. Just hold that thought. You want me to Google ADHD? No, no. I, I just want to make, because there has been some because of the definition there. So attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Thank you. I, sometimes I add in, in attention and that’s really just part of the diagnosis.
Cathy: Okay. So ADHD, it looks different. in women and men. And the reason why this is so interesting is because if, if you didn’t know this a lot of our drugs and a lot of our like diagnoses are not based on women. They’re mostly based on men. Okay. What that means is that women were not included. in a lot of research when it came to not just ADHD but other diagnoses because they couldn’t be depended on.
Cathy: Well, there’s more variables. There’s more variables.
Todd: In a woman’s body cycle, all that stuff.
Cathy: Yeah, a lot of times they’ve been neglected from research because and this is an unsubstantiated belief, like this isn’t necessarily true, I’m having a hard time saying words that our cycle would somehow cause variability in the results.
Cathy: So, and there’s also, this is the other one that kind of shocked me Women are twice as likely to suffer adverse reactions to drugs, which means that like 80 percent of drugs are withdrawn from the marketplace so people can’t like promote them and they don’t get, you know, FDA approval. So they start pulling women out of the actual study to get the drugs approved.
Cathy: But do you see how that makes no sense? Basically, then you’re just creating drugs for men. Because women are having side effects from these drugs. And they’re like, yeah, but we want to get it out there. So we don’t want to count you.
Todd: So in other words, they’ll say, hey, this drug is good to go. It’ll impact a man in a certain way.
Todd: And it’ll impact a woman.
Cathy: Well, they’re able to go through the whole scientific process, do the, do the research on it and get the results they need to push it through. But when they would have women in the study and women would say, Hey, I’m having an adverse reaction here, or I’m having this experience here.
Cathy: They’d say, rather than like, figure out how to have that not happen. We’re just going to pull you from the study. Do you see what I mean? So then the, you know, the belief is that like, If we are studying men when it comes to ADHD or cardiovascular or whatever, our DNA is close enough that we’re gonna have the exact same experience if it’d be a drug or a diagnosis.
Cathy: But that’s not true. And now there’s been, obviously, some legislation, there’s been some you know, organizations, groups, like some advocacy and some, you know, activism around getting women involved in research. But I think the stat is still really low. I thought I had written it down, but it’s not it’s not happening the way that we thought it would.
Cathy: It’s too slow. Let’s just say that. Like, we’ve started changing it, but it’s too slow. So anyway, what’s been happening is that ADHD is now being diagnosed more in women. Okay, so this is happening because when, basically this is a Gen X thing, I have to be honest with you, is that there are so many women in my age group who are now being diagnosed because as kids, they weren’t thought of, of having an attention issue.
Cathy: They were just thought of as being like flaky or flighty or absent mind. How many girls did we call ditzy? You know what I mean? Yeah. And that wasn’t the only symptom. But it was like the, there was a passivity to it, like, Oh, this doesn’t affect them. And then what’s unfortunate is that with ADHD, if it’s undiagnosed, a lot of times what really becomes the presenting feature is anxiety.
Cathy: And so then we diagnose a lot of women with anxiety because that becomes the thing they experience because of the untreated ADHD. Does that make sense? So we’re just kind of now. Figuring this out, and I, I just know, like, the stat has gone up tremendously as far as, like, the amount of kids. That are diagnosed with ADHD boys versus girls.
Cathy: It’s like significant [00:26:40] difference like 70 percent of boys and like 3 percent of girls But then as we get older the stat starts to get closer Because women can now now we’re now because we’re involving women in research and we’re actually researching women’s Experience with ADHD we see something different Well,
Todd: and I just, I think I’d like to jump in just about my experience.
Todd: You know, I’ve been in the professional world for 30 years and I’ve experienced all different types of people. And I, when I, when I think of ADHD, I think of like some friends of mine, some colleagues of mine, easily distracted. Like they can’t sit in a meeting for more than 10 minutes before they stand up or.
Todd: before they, you know, bring another element of the kind, like they just can’t sit still. And I I used to and probably still do sometimes judge these people. I’m like, will you just sit down? You know, I say in my head, will you just sit down so we can finish this so we can move on to the next thing? And it has happened a lot.
Todd: And I, we were just talking before we pressed record this morning, how It’s important, you know, as much as we don’t like labeling people or introducing different frameworks, if I know somebody is Dealing with. Dealing with, thank you, with ADHD, whether they know it or don’t know it, or whether I think it or it’s true or not, it helps me have a little more empathy and compassion for that person.
Todd: And there’s a few people in my life that I’m super close to work colleagues and friends, and I, I’m now. Understanding them a little bit better because you know, my world is Can’t everybody just be like me, which is right. Sit down and show up on time, be focused, do all that other stuff. And that doesn’t mean everybody gets off the hook for everything.
Todd: But if we can understand each other a little bit better, if I can understand. these people in my life a little bit better, I can more easily have empathy and compassion. And like, maybe I run a meeting differently. Like, okay, we’ve been sitting here for 20 minutes. It’s now time for us to stand up, take a breath, go outside, you know, look at nature, and then let’s come back in two minutes or something like that.
Todd: So that’s why I wanted to bring up this topic because. We’ve done 750 or so of these podcasts, and I don’t think we’ve ever talked about this.
Cathy: Well, so let’s talk about the diagnosis itself so people know what we’re talking about. So there’s three types of diagnosis when it comes to ADHD. So inattentive type is the first one.
Cathy: So that’s like, you know, typical forgetfulness, lack of attention to detail, inability to complete tasks being easily sidetracked, and adult. Adults and girls are more likely to be diagnosed with this inattentive type than boys, okay? I’m not saying it’s not a part of boys experience, because I’ll get to that in a second, but girls and, you know, adults.
Cathy: Hyperactivity, impulsive type. Symptoms include feeling restless, fidgety, can take the form of being overly talkative, described as someone who’s always in motion or constantly busy. Boys are more likely to be diagnosed with this, especially when they’re young. Like, I will say… I used to diagnose kids all the time because I worked at a children’s hospital here in Chicago and I could almost tell I’d been there for you a few years and I would meet a boy and even before asking him questions just by his demeanor you could tell.
Cathy: Now I don’t mean that I didn’t ask the questions but there was like even the way they looked, even the way their eyes would you know dart around like you would kind of be like wow there’s some You know, obvious hyper hyperactivity. And then of course there’s combined type, which includes both inattentive and hyperactive impulsive traits.
Cathy: And they can be mild to severe. Like, again, like everything it’s, you know, it’s a bit of a spectrum. There’s, it’s not that everybody looks exactly the same. But those are the three types. So
Todd: inattentive. Hyperactive and then a hybrid, is that what you were saying?
Cathy: So yeah, hyperactive, impulsive. Okay. So, you know, HI. And then the last one is combined, the two, where somebody is inattentive and they’re hyperactive. Got it. Okay? And so so in women… Inattentive is the most common type, which, you know, makes sense. And, and what we now understand, and we’ll dig deeper into these specifics, but, is that men and boys, when they have issues with attention they tend to pur project it outwards.
Cathy: Similar to emotions, right? You know, like, we’ve often talked about depression, how sometimes in men it shows up as violence and anger, and as women it shows up as depression. It’s the same way with, you know, ADHD. Like, a lot of men, you see it on the outside. You see their, you know, hyperactivity, you know, they’re, you see they’re, they’re talking a mile a minute.
Cathy: A lot of women turn it internally and they’re very hard on themselves about being forgetful or forgetting to say something or, or saying something that, you know, or not remembering something or being late, you know, not being on time and they’re very like self depreciating. And, and it all kind of, and that’s why it can end up showing up as anxiety because instead of dealing with, Oh, my brain actually processes things differently.
Cathy: It’s what’s wrong with me. And so, you know, these are this understanding of how it’s going to look in a woman. And again, I want to, you know, we have to like cover all these. There are women who also show the hyperactivity, impulsive part too. It’s just what is the most typical. You know, the, the fidgetiness.
Cathy: I have friends who need to move, not just their bodies, but their fingers. You know, they need to have something in their hand. They need to be doing something while they talk. And that is, and, and I’ll say the other thing that I’ve noticed in the women that I know that now know they have ADHD. Is they were able to, because they weren’t diagnosed as kids or we didn’t have this language, they were able to come up with really good skills to counteract the challenge.
Cathy: Okay, what do I mean by that? They were able to become good list makers. They were able to become really good at writing things down and remembering, giving themselves reminders. Maybe, you know, way back when on our blackberries or on our, what was that thing called that we used to?
Todd: Chandler? Chandler’s assignment notebook?
Cathy: Whatever they were, they were just, they were good. They basically are like, I can’t hold this information organizers. Right, organizers. So I’m going to write it down and I’m going to become really skilled. And then when Facebook came along and we had access to people’s birthdays and we’d get reminders, it was even better.
Cathy: Right. A lot of times people develop really strong skills in other areas, just like someone who’s dyslexic, who has a hard time reading, they become great listeners because it’s like, I can’t really see the words, but I can hear what you’re saying. So whatever, whenever we’re lacking in some area, if it be because of nature, nurture, you know, brain development or whatever, we pick up on things we strengthen in other areas.
Cathy: So that’s the thing is a lot of times we can’t see that this is challenging us anymore because we’ve put all of these things in place to prop ourselves up, which is a positive. I, there’s nothing but positive there, but then sometimes we have, we’ll be like, but no, I am organized. And it’s like, well, you’re organized because you developed all these systems.
Cathy: But your actual, the way you’re thinking is actually chaotic sometimes, where you, it doesn’t stop, your brain doesn’t stop, and you’re having a hard time with all these tasks and getting them together, or you’re hard on yourself about it, or you’re always late, or whatever it may be. So, It’s I just want to, you know, point out the fact that no matter what your diagnosis is, if you have one or a label, we figure things out.
Cathy: Like I was talking about with the HSP, with being a highly sensitive person, you know, like I said, when I was very, very young, and I don’t really even remember this, but my mom would tell me I was really, really shy. And then I started developing things like, I need to go out in the world. I need to push myself. That scares me so I’m gonna do that. Because of my. Limitations. I figured out ways. To push myself that maybe somebody else wouldn’t. Sure. And so these are just, you know, things we do. Yeah.
Todd: And once again, it’s for me I just sometimes I’m like, do things the way I like to do things or be as organized as I am or be
Cathy: Or don’t be, I’m sorry, I keep saying don’t be late, but that’s such a big one for you.
Todd: Oh yeah. And I’ve tried to investigate that a bit because I do have some pretty significant challenges of being late and I think I’ve even shared on this podcast. First day I was supposed to go to work at Dominic’s.
Cathy: Wait, can I say this before you say that? You just said you have significant challenges of being late. You actually don’t. You are always on time. Yeah. My challenge is when other people are being late. Okay.
Todd: You know, five o’clock means five o’clock. Right. My first day on the job is a. bagger at Dominic’s grocery store. I was whatever, 45 minutes late because my dad told me, get me back on time. He didn’t do that.
Todd: I was, we’re at a family outing at a water park and I was, you know, my first day on the job. So I’ve, I’ve tried to trace, like, what is my. Baggage with being late and that’s the earliest I can earliest memory and come up with when I was 16 years old. But yeah, so I just, for me, I, I, my whole point of wanting to bring this up is for me to be able to cultivate some more compassion in myself for people that see the world differently than the one I do, or they’re wired differently than I am. Right. And what’s interesting about ADHD in adults is it has, for most of my adult life, I’ve never even thought about anybody having that. Right. Because a lot of it can be covert. It could be hidden. It’s not like somebody has a ADHD label on their forehead, like, and then it’s easy for me to empathize with them.
Todd: Instead, I have to be a detective. And, um… Or accepting. Well, yeah. First notice it. Yeah. And then to accept it. Right. But I can’t accept it until I notice it. True. So yeah, that’s my whole thing is I just want to be better at night, friends who are on meds to do it and then they try to come off and then they stay off, but others try to come off and it didn’t work.
Todd: And it’s, it’s I don’t pretend to know what it’s like. Of course I get distracted just like the rest of us, but I just want to be clear as like, I’m not an expert on any of this. I’m just sharing my own experience of it with. loved ones and colleagues as I’m trying to like get better at noticing it and developing more compassion for it.
Todd: That’s it.
Cathy: Absolutely and you know it’s interesting you bring up medication because we’re not really going to dive into that today as far as because here’s the thing about what’s nice with ADHD meds. is you can have choice, meaning some people do, you know, time release and it just releases throughout the day and then maybe on the weekend they don’t even take meds and some people take it a few times a day because that’s what works better for them.
Cathy: Like, there’s a lot of different options now, even than there were 10 years ago about how you want to, because some people just medicate, use medication for if they’re going to take a test or if they need to focus or they don’t, you don’t. It’s different than an SSRI, which you have to take over time and build up in your system.
Cathy: And the thing is, is a lot of people have found, you know, when they, and I’ll talk about adults, they start taking a med and they’re like, Oh my gosh, I have been struggling with the way my brain processes things and now I’m, I can chill and I can like hear myself and I can make choices. So this, and is our meds the only thing we can do?
Cathy: No, sometimes we don’t need meds at all. And it’s just a realization of the way I process is different. We’ve built up, we’ve built up a number of tools where we can function with it, but we have a little more self compassion about it. So again, it’s the spectrum. What do we need is very Individual. So, and it’s same with your kid.
Cathy: I think that I can go both ways with this. We have like shows from a long time ago where I was always concerned about meds with kids because I worked in a hospital and saw how many kids were medicated. I also have seen the other side where when a kid doesn’t have the medication they need, their life is so much harder.
Cathy: And the, and it’s it’s insane to keep it from them or to not. Give them a med when you consider it, it’s, it’s not something that they’re choosing. It’s something the way their brain has developed and they need it. Just like somebody who has any other form, you know, if it’d be diabetes or whatever and they need insulin.
Cathy: I know we use that all the time, but it works in this, this situation. So it’s a very personal journey when you get a diagnosis of whether or not meds are your thing. But what can be interesting for adults, I think, is when they realize how long they had been struggling. And there was an option for them, you know, or how long they had been self depreciating and self, you know, critical.
Cathy: And then they realize. It’s not their fault. That’s just the way they process. So there really is two sides. Number one, how we feel about ourselves. And then [00:40:00] as you said, how other people perceive us, because I’m just like you, Todd, when I find out that somebody is you know, their diagnosis is ADHD or that they struggle with some of the organizational or impulsivity, then everything makes sense.
Cathy: So I’m not like, Oh, you’re late. So you don’t care about me. It’s more about, Oh yeah. You know, time is, is harder. You know, the, the understanding of time is a little more difficult. And like you said, it doesn’t mean you don’t ask for what you need. It just means you take it less personally. I think when you understand that someone They, and you and I have talked about this, like how someone processes information, like sometimes you tell a story and someone sits there for a while, you know, with their eyes closed or they sit there for a while thinking about it and we could be like, what, did you not hear me?
Cathy: Yeah. Like, you know, when really they need that moment to process, to be able to give you an answer. And instead of us taking it personally or saying, well, you should respond right away or feeling insulted, we can understand. that this person is doing their best to accommodate.
Todd: Well, and I feel like this is a good argument.
Todd: You know, we, a few weeks ago, we had Sean Emerson and Chris Lozier on, and we had a debate about frameworks and the value of frameworks or the absence of value in frameworks. And I feel like in this case, frameworks or labels are really helpful. Right. Whether we’re talking about your love language, sweetie, is words.
Todd: Right. Acts of service. If I know your default is words, then. That helps me get to connect with you in a different way. Right. Same as Enneagram. Same as somebody is diagnosed with ADHD. Like, it helps me empathize. Like that’s, for me, that’s what I think is great about these labels and these frameworks.
Todd: Does that mean because I’m a three on the Enneagram or my love language is X, serves that that’s all I am? Of course not. I’m like a boundless human being, just like the rest of us that have all these different nuances within it. But my center of gravity is that, you know, I see the world through a very specific lens.
Todd: And when I get tripped up, you talked about not taking things personally. That’s what I, I’m like, no, everybody should see the world the way I do. And then we’re all going to get along just fine. I feel like a lot of us wake up in the morning doing that. And if we can just know that everybody’s acting from their own experience, I was just having a discussion with a good friend on the car ride to the airport.
Todd: I flew out of Salt Lake yesterday. And he was talking about, you know, some of these problems that he has with some family members because they see that he, they see the world so differently, whether it’s Democratic or Republican or whatever it is. And the bottom line, we talked about guns and you know, my friend’s like, guns are stupid.
Todd: Why do we have guns? And, and his family members like, no, we need to arm our teachers out there. Wow. Because that will keep our children safer. What’s interesting is that My friend’s opinion is this is what we need to do to keep our children safer and and his Relative is saying this is what we need to do to keep our children safer.
Todd: Like we’re both coming at it from We both want the same thing.
Cathy: We both care and we both want a good outcome.
Todd: Yeah, we just disagree on how we do that and
Cathy: and I struggle with that one because statistically that’s not
Todd: of course. It’s not I’m not about to get into a debate on who’s right and who’s wrong.
Todd: Let’s put a pin in that I’m saying that there is a reason something happened sure his relative correct to make him or her think that this is the way we keep things safe.
Cathy: Happen to, or story has been told to, or what they read is. Exactly. Like, it’s all about what we’re fed. I mean, it’s…
Todd: And if I was born into that body, into that world, into that news cycle, or whatever, I would probably agree.
Todd: I would probably believe that same thing. Because that’s what I’ve been exposed to.
Cathy: You know, it’s so interesting my daughter, who is she’s going to school in Iowa, and one of her classes, she was telling me about how they’re learning how different aspects of the country, the, the first settlers who came into different areas of the country, that.
Cathy: They’re the kind of, they set the tone and they were the determiners of still what we learn today.
Todd: And are we talking about the white settlers, not the Native Americans, right?
Cathy: Correct. I’m not going, I’m going back to just, this is just U. S. history. So we’re not talking about all the, you know, the layers of our country.
Cathy: Yeah. But that this first settlers who were like you said, the white settlers, they’re, there are reasons why different parts of the country, we think certain ways we do, and there’s some obvious things, civil war and all that. But there’s more like, as far as how we’re educated, what we’re told, some of it’s family lore and some of it’s just like, you know, it, you know, what our morals and values are.
Cathy: It’s just really interesting. Like she was I’d rather have her talk about it cause I don’t have all the specifics, but just some of the things she was telling me, it tells you why we think the way we do at different parts of the country.
Todd: Well, the bottom line is if we can really investigate how a person got.
Todd: To believe what they believe, I think the world would probably be in a healthier space. But instead, I dig my, I draw my line in the sand saying, this is the way I think the world should be. And if you disagree with me, you’re my enemy. And it’s just not a really good recipe for long term connection.
Cathy: Yeah. I think my frustration is I would never call someone my enemy, but I think my frustration is, is when the information is incorrect.
Cathy: Sure. Like what I get frustrated at are, as everybody does, are lies in the media. And when we look at research, I mean, and this couldn’t have been bigger than during COVID, you know, like there are things where you’re like, okay, this is science. And then somebody else will come out and say, yeah, but I don’t like it.
Cathy: So believe me. And everyone’s like, yeah. And so people aren’t following. The people who actually, and when I say following, I don’t mean like a guru, but people aren’t listening to people who have been studying things their whole life. Yeah. They instead listen to like a, a, a loud person who says, but I don’t like that.
Todd: Well, and the, and the idea that these algorithms on our phones are built to elevate those voices. That is, yeah, like, this is not you being in the town square. Right. Where you can only talk to a certain amount of people, I mean, and now with AI coming, you know, this, we have an election coming up here in about…
Todd: 13 months, 14 months, the amount of disinformation that is, you know, the video, like it’s going to be really convincing of all these things. Like Joe Biden says this, even though he didn’t, or Donald Trump said that and he didn’t, and it’s going to be really hard to disseminate what’s real and what’s not.
Cathy: Not disseminate, decipher, discern. Yeah. The, I think what’s. Interesting, though, is some of the social networking, some of the social media has already has things that said this is not a true clip. Yeah. So, we’re trying to keep up with it. I don’t think, I think you’re right. No, we won’t be able to. We’re going to try our best.
Cathy: Yeah, we’re going to try our best, but people, you know, we’re trying to like, what is a real clip and what is false? We’re trying to figure it out. Yeah. But, I just I think the, ADHD, is once… News media was deregulated. I think that’s when everything started to kind of fall apart because we were able to get into the, and then social media just added to it.
Cathy: But this happened, I think, during Reagan where we, we deregulated it. And so now anybody can really call themselves news and we can break off into our, you know, different areas. Yeah. So we don’t have like news anymore. Okay. So going back to ADHD, just I’m going to say these things and just to kind of close up shop here.
Cathy: So. ADHD in women, just to kind of summarize, less likely to be diagnosed, often looks like anxiety and is diagnosed for anxiety, more symptoms, symptoms of inattention and more issues with internal and verbal aggression, like more internal aggression, like being angry at yourself and maybe being more like outwardly frustrated.
Cathy: Okay, ADHD in men more likely to be diagnosed more like disruptive behaviors and acting out more hyperactivity and impulsiveness and more physical aggression and again this we’ve just kind of started this I mean relatively speaking when it comes to how many years things are studied really understanding how this looks in women and I again I’m grateful.
Cathy: Like, you know, we can say, well, it shouldn’t have been this way, or women should have been studied the whole time, but we’re just trying to catch up here. Yeah. And I’m just really happy for people who are recognizing that they, you know, it’s sometimes the way that their brain is working, or they’re feeling like overwhelmed, that there are things they can do, or there’s a way to understand themselves better.
Cathy: I mean, that’s really That’s really the goal. So I was… Is this your break?
Todd: I’m really just trying to implant that earworm into you…
Cathy: I know and I’m sure people are going to thank you for that. So I’m going to say a few more things, okay? So a first of its kind study showed women diagnosed in adulthood with ADHD responded negatively to criticism, which is clinically, and we always have a clinical title for something it’s referred to as rejection sensitive dysphoria.
Cathy: I would just call it not liking rejection, but I have to. You don’t be a therapist. RSD. So basically the study of women and the mean age was 41 showed that they tended to blame themselves when their lives went poorly. So again, women who are diagnosed later in life, one of the things that they have recognized is a lot of these women are really self blaming and self critical.
Cathy: So because again, they. didn’t know why they dealt with things differently. And,
Todd: That’s so interesting. I just think of self criticism as like this human thing. I criticize myself. The, the worst blame, the person that I blame most in my world is always myself. Sure. And I, I don’t know what it’s like to be a woman.
Todd: And, but if, if you women have even a higher degree of self criticism, I’m just like, holy cow.
Cathy: Of course. Well, and again, it depends on the diagnosis and why. It’s like talking about something like grief. Like I can grieve something that is like, oh, we’re changing from summer to fall. Oh, I’m grieving that lot.
Cathy: And then there’s grief where you’ve lost someone who someone has died or a pet has died or and and so everyone, all of its grief, but what are the levels and layers and experiences? And, and this is something I think that you know, Todd, you and I talked about again with Chris and Sean, when they were on the show, and we talked, we talked about it for 13 years, is that You, we are way too in our heads about I experienced this, so it must be similar for everybody.
Cathy: And we have to recognize that just because we’ve had an experience doesn’t mean it’s the same as someone else’s. Like, I feel like you and I just the other day, we were going somewhere. I think it was because JC was talking, our daughter who’s in Italy, was talking about an experience she had with some men where she had to be kind of thoughtful about.
Cathy: Being in a group of women with a few guys because of something that happened. And I started sharing all these experiences that I still have as a woman out in the world. And they were kind of new ones. And you don’t experience any of those things.
Todd: None of them. And it’s funny. I was with some dear friends this weekend.
Todd: And we, I talked a little bit about that and this is a total pivot, but my 20 year old daughter is in Italy and she’s experiencing different ways in which that she has to keep herself safe. And I just find myself getting so frustrated. Just that, that’s the world that you. Women have to live in and, you know, we had a, a debate with Sean and Chris a few weeks ago about how, Hey, it’s not easy to be a, being a 14 year old boy because it’s harder to get into college and our brains are a little bit slower to develop and blah, blah, blah.
Todd: But. I don’t know. This is a whole nother podcast, but it’s apples and oranges because yeah, a 14 year old boy who is born into this man box and he swims in the cultural conditioning of this man box. It sucks and it’s unfair, but the bottom line is the worst thing is that he, not the worst thing, but he just has to deal with his stuff.
Todd: Whereas my daughter and my wife and my nieces have to do these things to keep themselves. Physically safe. Safety issues. And that’s, that is a such a huge thing that I think us men have a hard time getting our arms around because we do not live in that world. Right.
Cathy: Well, again, patriarchy hurts everybody.
Cathy: It hurts all genders because of the, you know, the conditioning. The but to it is that there is an experience when men think they can relay their experiences and place them on top of women’s. They are completely different. There are things that we, you know, and I told Todd, I go the best, the best analogy or the best version if you want to like kind of see it played out is in Barbie when Barbie, when Barbie and Ken go into the real world, they roll their blade into the real world.
Cathy: And Barbie’s like, everybody’s looking at me differently. And I’m starting to feel [00:53:20] uncomfortable. And Ken’s like, me too. And I love it. It’s obviously they’re trying to kind of make some humor out of it and highlight the fact. But we walk down the street differently. I was telling Todd that like, I drive a Jeep and so the top will be open and sometimes I pull up next to a truck driver and there’s all like, and I’m 52.
Cathy: Do you know what I mean? Like imagine how it was when I was 17 and they’ll like look down and they’ll wave and they’ll honk and they’ll, and again, I know some guys will be like, they’re just being nice. There is this undercurrent. of not feeling safe. Yeah. Because I don’t know, because I’ve experienced all of the above.
Cathy: Yeah. And you just are a little bit more of a object. And it’s not even, it’s not even, and again, people get this associated with, it’s only for people who are beautiful or it’s not. It’s, it’s, the way you’re treated is differently and is different. And it’s it’s not an argument that I need to have with you or men.
Cathy: It’s just an understanding. That if we can, you know, experiences, that’s all. That is a great. Can we hear each other? That’s it.
Todd: That’s a great segue to promote our Masculine Feminine Barbie Talk. Let’s talk about it. Next Thursday, September 21st. So it’s open to all genders. It’s actually a Men Living event.
Todd: I am leading it. I don’t know if you’re gonna be on there or not, sweetie, you’re not gonna be on there yet. I don’t know. Oh, it’s up to you. It’s at night, sweetie. Isn’t link to work at night ? I’m not a big nighter , but it’s
Cathy: Unfortunately, most presentations are at night, so I’m always having to debate whether or not I’m gonna do it.
Todd: So it’s at 7:00 PM Thursday, September 21st. This is a Men Living event that is open to all genders and I really hope people show up for it. It’s on Zoom, so just it’s, the link is in the show notes, so just check it out.
Cathy: I want more events during the day. I’m so good at noon. I’m great at 9:30. I’m great at 8:30. I’m great at 3. But once it’s like past 7, I’m like, aren’t we done? Yeah, you’re shutting down. And then when people are like, will you do presentation at 7. 30? I’m like, really? Aren’t we done? But we’re not because people work and they can’t do all those things, but it’s just a cafe thing.
Todd: I want to promote Jeremy Craft.
Todd: He’s a bald headed beauty. He does painting and remodeling throughout the Chicagoland area. He’s done a bunch of stuff in our house. He’s a wonderful man. He’s a honest contractor. 630 956 1800. The website is avidco.net. Anything else you want to promote there, babe?
Cathy: I think get your tickets to Zen Parenting 2024.
Cathy: Go buy my book. I’m actually going to do a re promotion of Zen Parenting the book. Good. Yeah, I actually was listening to Jess Leahy’s podcast. It’s called AmWriting and she was talking about how the gift of failure is 10 years old. And she still promotes it all the time. I’m like, why am I not promoting?
Cathy: I have a new, I’m, I have a new proposal and so I have a new book that I’m trying to get out there, but I’m also like, why? It’s only been a year and a half.
Todd: Well, and you also have, I know you don’t like your first two books.
Cathy: I don’t not like them. They’re just so old.
Todd: How, how are they not any more important than when you wrote
Cathy: I know. It’s a good point. So I actually There’s
Todd: a lot of good stories in there that a lot of new moms, new dads absolutely need to hear. You’re right. And that doesn’t even speak for your third book. Yeah. Which is awesome. Yeah. Third book was good. Do you remember what the title of it is?
Cathy: Living What You Want Your Kids To Learn.
Cathy: And what’s the subtitle? The power of self aware parenting. Very good. You thought you were going to get me. I did, I did. Yeah. Yes, so yes, you’re right. All of them are good, it’s just the they were just there for a certain time. It’s like a, it’s like someone who’s, you know, songwriters who have written an album and they’re like, I can’t read that, or I can’t listen to that as much anymore because I’m not there anymore.
Cathy: Right. That’s all. And you get better, right? So like when I read some of my essays from 12 or 13 years ago. I’m like, Oh, that’s just, I think normal human stuff. But anyways, Zen Parenting, I’m going to do a promotion. I’m going to talk more about chakras. I’m going to do something because it’s just, it’s hasn’t been that long.
Cathy: And in everybody who listens to this show, if you listen to this show, this book is 101. I mean, it’s like, if you’re like, how do I encapsulate this show? That’s why I wrote the book. And so I feel like I’ve just kind of dropped the ball. Yeah.
Todd: Well, we just got to keep making sure people know that it’s available.
Cathy: I know. I know. So no, I am good. I’m good.
Todd: Thank you. All right. So I will, we’re going to play the outro music. All right. You’re mean.
Cathy: Sweet dreams, you can’t erase it in the end.
Todd: All right, we’ll do the real promotion. Yeah, go. Finish, finish the show. Finish the show. Everybody keep trucking. That’s how I’m going to finish the show.
Todd: Have a good week, everybody. Bye.