ZPR#723 – Difficult Conversations between Women & Men Full Episode Transcript – DOWNLOAD
Todd: Here you go. My name’s Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 723. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio because you’ll feel outstanding is always, remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s wellbeing is a parent’s self understanding. On today’s show, we have two good friends of ours, sweetie.
Yep. We have Mr. Shaun Emerson and Mr. Chris Lozier. Sweetie, you do your best to explain who these two clowns are.
Cathy: In like a personal relationship or in like work
Todd: relationship. Start too personal and then I’ll go professional.
Cathy: Well, I’ll start with Chris Zer. Chris Lozier is the husband of my best friend Manisha.
That’s the personal part. So that’s where I met him, I don’t know how many years ago, 25 [00:01:00] years ago? 25, 25 years ago, something like that. And since then is obviously one of my best friends as well. But he is a type to go into all of his work history. No, it’s gonna be boring. Okay. That’s what I mean.
Like where do you want me to go? No, just how we know these. Okay. And then Shaun is our good friend for many reasons. Because we, I used to take Shaun’s yoga class and I talked about Shaun a lot ’cause I really liked his yoga class. And then I feel like, Shaun, you asked, now Todd, and I disagree on this, but I thought you asked me about my Zen Parenting shirt once.
The guy asked him.
Todd: Oh damn. Yeah. Yeah. And I don’t even know if you asked me, I think you noticed it. So then you Googled it and then you listened to some podcasts. Yeah. And then I got an email from you. I think I did.
Shaun: I binged like 10 or 11. I’m like, oh, these guys are pretty good. Yeah. Not bad. I think I’m gonna, I think I’m
Todd: gonna reach out to ’em li little did you know X amount of years later you’d be, this is the second time you’ve been on with us.
This is, yep. First time was with Frank. Yeah. Talking about masculinity.
Cathy: Oh, that’s right. Yeah. I knew he had been here before because, [00:02:00] and Chris has been here before too. ’cause he and Manisha came in and talked about their daughter may because she had Kawasaki disease. Oh, that’s right. When she was young.
That was a really early podcast. Yeah. Way back when. But Shaun, going back to you, it was before Shaun. Before Shaun B.S.. Before Shaun. But the thing about Shaun was that I used to joke that Todd’s, all of Todd’s best friends came from me. Because I, Frank and I did yoga teacher training together. I took Shaun’s class.
Chris is, you know, Manisha’s husband. So I’d always be like, you
Todd: get all your friends from, so I’m forever in debt to you. Yeah.
Cathy: Thank you. Thank you. All right. Great.
Todd: So the professional side is yes, that Shaun and Chris after a while they were having these conversations on the phone, whatever, and you guys both had a curiosity about, I don’t know, just understanding other people.
You decided to do a podcast together called, if you’ve come this far, and you’ve been doing it for I think a few years now. Yeah. That was, are you
Shaun: actually called on the professional side? I know it’s
Chris: called Professional. Yes. Right. Hardly,
Shaun: Yeah. [00:03:00] 2020.
Todd: One a little over two years, I think. Yeah. And you’ve interviewed, th you’ve done 35 interviews and we might talk about some of the people you’ve interviewed ’cause that’s interesting.
But what perpetuated my want one is to do some cross-promotion, obviously. So if there’s any Zen Parenting listeners out there and you wanna, I, Shaun and Chris do a really good job of getting their guests to kind of like disarm and relax. And it’s a much more, it’s just a really casual discussion.
And Cathy, you and I have done not two, we’ve done 700 podcasts. We’ve probably done what, 60 interviews? And it’s probably more than that, maybe. Who knows? And you know, it seems like when I’m leading the interview, I’m always like asking them about their book or it’s, and I like to like talk about some of their, kinda like a Dak Shepherd podcast where he like goes in all these different directions.
Yeah, I like that too. You guys seem to go in all different [00:04:00] directions, aside from the expertise that the guy is on. Would you agree with that?
Chris: I’m not sure that we do it by design as much as that’s just how. Shaun and I became friends. Really? Yeah. Is going in different directions. Right.
Todd: So, but the main reason why I wanted to have you guys on Shaun is the president of the Board of Men Living, which is an organization that I co-founded that Chris is a member of.
And he wrote a blog called, I don’t know, maybe it was like in, you remember what month this was in. I
Shaun: just sent, I sent it a text. I don’t, it was a
Chris: while ago. Probably
Todd: March, maybe. Yeah, I think it was winter time.
Chris: Yeah. Todd, real quick, can I get access to the sound effects so I can just bust out some sound effects?
You cannot.
Todd: That’s up to me. Okay. What would you go with them? There you go. That one for you. So much power. I know much. You have no idea. Much.
Shaun: It feels like he had that one way.
Cathy: I’ll start talking about something. If it happens to be lyrics to a song, all of a sudden a song comes on over my head.
Todd: [00:05:00] That’s right.
That’s true. Sorry about that. No, you’re fine. So, so you wrote a, so Shaun wrote a blog and what I can say about my friendship with Shaun, ’cause we are in business together. We’re trying to move the ball forward at Men Living. We disagree. I think a lot would be an overstatement, but there’s plenty of times where we both kind of believe what we believe.
We try to look at it from the other’s point of view, but there’s times when there’s just an impasse. I’m like, Shaun, I think you’re wrong. You think I’m wrong? Here we go. And this is one of those articles. Okay. And I highlighted just a few things and then I want you to add some color to it, Shaun. Sure. Okay.
Yeah. So Shaun starts out just, there’s this good newspaper that he subscribed to. It’s an email and the title of the headline of. A blog that you read was, for the first time in US history, the top leaders of one party will include [00:06:00] no white men. And then you go on to say, it’s not an unusual headline for good, who highlights and celebrate stories of social justice and human equality.
I too celebrate these stories of cultural evolution. I advocate for peace and love every day and can appreciate the gravity of the moment. But when I read that headline, I didn’t feel good. Good. I felt frustration, sadness, and anger. True expound on that. True.
Shaun: I just felt like it wa it felt more like, and I, and again, as I said, I understand the attitude of advancement, social advancement, but it felt like it was a celebration that there were no white men involved.
Right. So rather than just celebrating the fact that now we had a very, you know, a more diverse leadership team. Yeah. It felt like, okay, all the white guys are out. Let’s have a celebration about that. Right. And I just felt like that there was the wrong, for me, it was the wrong energy. Right.
And I think a lot of it has to do is every day what we’re doing with Men Living is we’re, is, you know, we’re trying to, yes. I would argue that [00:07:00] we’ve done a lot of great work, but potentially now, you know, the balance is going the other way. And so, given what we do every day in Men Living, I’m like, okay.
Just felt. Awful. It just felt like a celebration of the wrong thing. Right. It was more weight on the fact that there were no white guys involved. Right. And that’s why I felt, you know, motivated to kind of write the piece.
Todd: Well, and I think it was a if you’re, if you are, the purpose of writing is to gain energy and to have people think about something.
It certainly made me think, made me pause. Now most of it was through a lens of disagreement. Right. But before I do that, I wanna give Cathy the mic to have her, ’cause you and I both kind of read it. I think I read it first and you’re like, did you reach Shaun’s thing? I’m like, I was in the middle of replying in a comment
that I was gonna post back up on the blog.
Cathy: Well, I think what we ended up talking about, and I maybe we’ve already talked about this, Shaun. And guys, just so you know, I tend to look at the screen ’cause we look at each other then when this is on YouTube it looks like we’re looking [00:08:00] all over the place.
So it’s not that I’m not trying to make eye contact with you. I think that it was more about semantics. That’s what kind of, what I felt like it came down to is that the truth is, like, I sometimes even debate Todd on, you know, like, I think you just said Shaun, that sometimes we’ve, it feels like it’s tilting the other way.
And I debate that because I think there’s a lot of media around things and, you know, it just so happens this weekend you know, Barbie came out and there’s been a lot of focus on that. And so there’s a lot of attention and conversation, but attention and conversation is not societal change.
So like, the experiences of women are really not that different. Not only that, but more of our rights are being taken away by not you three sitting here, but by white men, right? So there’s still this threat even though there’s more conversation. So basically what I said to Todd was, I think it’s not that Shaun disagrees with what’s in this article.
It’s, and you just said this for yourself, Shaun, [00:09:00] it’s the way, it’s like, Screw you now, we’re it’s using the same oppressive energy yeah. To to like say, well, you know, it’s white men, forget about you, just us. And, and that us is diversity women, what, whatever it may be. And I think especially from the Good good newspaper, which, you know, tends to have, and again, it did not bother me.
I’m not, I don’t have a problem with those semantics. But I was like, just, you know, I reread what you wrote and I obviously just knowing you, I know you don’t disagree with what the truth is about the world. It’s more about let’s not take that energy and then now be negative about all men.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Todd: Yeah. Yeah. Chris, anything, because I got my take, but
Chris: I thought about it. I wonder, Shaun if so it wasn’t the statistic that was disheartening, it was the framing of the message. Is that right? Like it had the headline been [00:10:00] for the first time in history, all the leaders of political party are women and people of color.
You would’ve read it totally different. Reacted much differently. Yeah. Totally different. Yeah. I think that’s what it is. Yeah. For me too.
Todd: Yeah. So for me I feel like, so I got triggered when I read it originally, and it’s because I am the father of three daughters. You’re the fa Shaun is the father of two daughters.
Chris is the father of two daughters. And my experience in working with men is the minute many guys get challenged to think. From a perspective other than their own, they get super sensitive. And the example I gave, I remember I was given a talk to a group of men, not in Men Living. It was a actually mankind project.
And I said something to the effect of, you know, I. We’re, we have to work on ourselves to better this world because if you turn on the news, it’s not a bunch of women [00:11:00] that are on the headline of the news. It’s a bunch of white men making bad decisions. And I got significant immediate pushback in the midst of that talk.
And I feel like, Shaun, your reaction to that was in that like, can’t we as can’t I as a man create space to, maybe it is a little bit like the pendulum. Is moving a little bit towards minorities and women, but I’m like, good God. I just can we like be a little bit have a thicker skin without getting upset so quickly?
Shaun: Well, I think part of my, again, doing the work that we do every day, part of my reaction is understanding, and Cathy brings up a good point about the media understanding all the stats that are, I mean, every day there’s now a new article about the state of men. And it’s not going to college, not graduating high school, suicide, loneliness.
I mean, on and on. And sometimes I’m like, okay, is this just a media thing going, [00:12:00] what’s going on here? Because in in the next day, there’ll be the study that comes up from the CDC about young women, teenage girls which is, you know, the depression and suicidal ideation, the whole thing there too.
So it, it seems like it’s almost the whole thing is a shit show. I mean, no, there can’t no matter where we turn. But I think for me, it’s looking at those stats over and over again, and then the celebration of it, it’s like, okay, it’s kind of piling on. Yeah. If in fact all that data is true.
And I don’t know, I mean, I think there’s enough out there that. You know, it that it is true. I think there’s a crisis.
Todd: Well, just to kinda like, I wrote some things down and you know, the stats show because, you know, anytime there’s a new blog or a new article or a new interview about the state of manhood or the state of boyhood, you hear one in seven men in America don’t have a single friend.
Men are three times more likely to overdose. Men are four times more likely to die by suicide. Okay. So that’s the plight of men. According to the new [00:13:00] CDC data, nearly three in five US teenage girls felt persistently sad or hopeless in 2021. Double that of boys representing nearly 60% increase at the highest level reported over the past decade.
A Pew research study found in 2019, teen girls in US were three times more likely than boys the same age to have depression. So you know, the, even though Mike Domish doesn’t like stats, like one in six women are gonna be sexually assaulted on a college campus. And so there’s a problem on both sides, men and women.
Cathy: Yes. And we can talk stats, you know, all day long, but the truth is the experience that women have is so different than men. So that’s kind of, stats are a thing and everything, you know, it’s very nice the work that Todd and I do together, because as much as I just focus on women and girls, I get all that information from Todd and [00:14:00] his experiences in Men Living the, you know, obviously he’s not sharing, you know, the actual people, but the experience of men and their history and how that shows up in real.
So I have a, I feel like a full picture and just in my own experience as a therapist, obviously the, but that I always put out there is, you know, Being a woman in the world is so different. You know, like, so it’s like I have so much you know, empathy and understanding for men’s experiences.
And it’s hard. It’s just the amount I think the thing that women always push back on is the amount of shifting and shape shifting that women have to do in their everyday lives. As far as. This isn’t working, so I need to do this instead. This isn’t fair, but I need to accommodate this. This is life threatening.
But if I say something, I could lose my job. This is a situation where I should be able to go here, [00:15:00] but it’s not safe for me. And a lot of the onus is put on women. You know, there’s, there is, you know, when women go away to college, it is, you need to protect yourself. You need, I mean, we just heard a story yesterday, Todd just told me a story about a girl getting roofed.
And again, I know all these stats. I work with these girls who this happens to, but it’s like, and I know you guys are doing it and Men Living, but where are the conversations with boys and men about what they need to change? ’cause my whole life I’ve been told how to change and how to accommodate and how to show up differently.
So then, It’s not really about this article, Shaun, but then when it’s like, well, you know, good women are, you know, there’s finally some things where there’s a, the a, a shift, a change and men, and there’s like a men are like, yeah, but what about us? And my thing is, well, you guys can now shift and change.
Right. For sure. You know, that is the, because we’ve been, you know, I even, you know, it’s just funny things like I, when I first, you know, got a job, like we had to wear suits all the time to look like you guys, and I had to keep my voice down to sound like you guys. And I, [00:16:00] my dad told me short hair might be a better idea for you than long hair.
So you’re taken more seriously, like the amount of shifting. So it’s kind of like that’s the mentality. And that’s me as a somewhat privileged white woman. You know what I mean? There is, that is a whole nother story when we’re talking about women of color. So I That’s and men of color.
Yeah. And men of color. Thank you very much. True. Absolutely. So it’s. I think that sometimes we get too in our camps about, I can’t believe he would say that, or, you know, and that’s not where, how I feel at all. It’s more about do we see all those things? Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: Well, and I just, I don’t wanna leave Shaun hanging out the dry here.
Right. I do.
Todd: I’m more than happy him doing that.
Chris: And I’d have to go back and read your, are you rescuing
Shaun: me the first time this has ever happened,
Cathy: right. Hero energy
Chris: habitat? No, I mean, I just again, I’d have to go back and read your piece, but I didn’t, I don’t imagine that you [00:17:00] were making the case for what about us?
No, for sure. Right. I think it was a more of a statement on how did we get here so that we have to celebrate, you know, the lack of men versus the proliferation of people of color and women.
Todd: Yes.
Shaun: Right. I mean, as people will hear when they listen to our episode with Kath, when we publish it, I mean, we talked about, she’s a DEI consultant, and we talked about the fact that she’s a black woman who is insistent upon including white men in the conversation.
And DEI, because it’s like, how do you do it without everybody involved in the conversation? So to your point, and it’s about. Getting those men to think about things differently. Exactly. Not to be leaving ’em out. Exactly. And I, and just one other thing about the reaction to that headline.
It’s you mentioned, I have two daughters. I also have a son For Jack to see that headline that says, okay, everybody’s celebrating white guys being out. I mean, if you’re a younger man or a teenage boy and you’re seeing, you know, the [00:18:00] proliferation of that kind of language, hopefully you have somebody that can guide you and say, okay, you know, you can think about this differently.
Right. But if you don’t, you’re looking at saying, who am I? Right. And why, you know, how am I supposed to adapt to this? So we think about it in terms of a 60 year old guy, right? Absolutely. Yeah. But a 15 year old boy. Yeah. How does he look at things like that? Yeah. And how does he adapt to that when it’s like, well,
Todd: well, and it to be clear, like I’m 51 and I have enjoyed so much privilege, I’ll call it, and.
When I was growing up as in the seventies and the eighties, and there’s job security, there’s all these things that was built in for me to succeed. We now know that 15 year old boys are living in a different world than I was back in 1988 when I was 15. So I do appreciate your point, because you know, the state, the stats are the stats and you know, job employment, women are more independent, women can be more selective over who they’re gonna partner with, [00:19:00] all these different things.
And that was not like that. So I do appreciate your point that as a middle-aged white man, it’s one thing, but as a cisgender white man who was born in 2005, that’s, it’s a, it’s not the same. I’m not, I’m comparing apples and oranges, I think.
Cathy: Yeah. And you know, it’s funny, I could even take it off of this thing, this article, know, that Shaun wrote and just talk about why.
Maybe a headline that like, that gets written or why women have the responses They do. I was doing a a talk with men and we were talking about emotional labor and and it was going okay. I know there’s a few people who never came back again, so I know that it didn’t go great. But, you know, I would explain things like you know, in the morning it’s a struggle and if the and I was using a very general thing, if the socks aren’t put together, then that causes a domino effect of the kid doesn’t have socks, and then we have to figure that out, and then they don’t wanna wear those because they’re dirty.
And it just creates this thing where [00:20:00] traditionally, generally, not always, but women are putting those things together and doing those things behind the scenes and that’s a lot of energy. And one of the men and another men agreed, he said, well, just stop doing that and let the kids figure it out themselves.
Just stop doing these things you’re doing and maybe we could work this out. And it’s such a, ugh, I get so tired of those kind of like, and that’s not the only time that’s happened because there’s all sorts of the, and so why women? I’m telling that story not for, not just because of that story, but women have responses when men are like, but you know, how is this affecting other people or how, you know, getting concerned about something, maybe that hasn’t happened yet and we’re having experiences every day where we’re not seen for what we’re actually doing and how we’re showing up and doing extra work sometimes, or emotional work that sometimes isn’t seen as making the world go round.
I mean, if, if and I know I’m not saying this [00:21:00] because I believe it, but many people believe women are second class citizens. I mean, right. Like we are, we don’t have the same rights as you could do. I mean, we don’t even have an equal rights amendment. You know? So have there been shifts?
Of course. And do, and are more women going to college? Of course. So there’s like these little statistical things, but we are still, there’s a culture. And again, I’m gonna focus on Barbie for a second. There’s this great, and I’m not going to give it away or read it, but this great, you know, monologue that America Ferrara does in the movie about women’s experiences in the world.
That they have to be this, but they can’t be this and they have to be this and they can’t be this. I think you guys could probably do a similar speech about what men can and can’t be. So I totally see that. But it’s this, we live in this culture of paradox where we, and so whenever a man says, But what about me in any way?
There’s this kind of trauma response. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And I’m not saying it’s justified all the time. I’m saying it comes out of this like what? You know, like, and Todd gets it from me. I mean, he, this, he and I have [00:22:00] this conversation where he’ll say, but you know this and this.
And I’m like, excuse me. You know? And it comes from a very deep old place. It is. It’s a trauma response.
Todd: Do you guys have these conversations with your significant others at all? Or is it not top of mind? You
Chris: act like she’s on my wife. No shit.
Todd: Or your kids. Yeah.
Chris: I mean, all the time. I mean, I think that this is where the heart of this conversation is.
Lies, it’s around the conversation. And a lot of times when it’s made into like this either or thing or this adversarial thing, so it’s like out with the white man. We spoke to a guest named Chuka, can’t remember Chu’s last name. Yeah. But he’s done a lot of research on in sales. Have you
Todd: ever heard that term?
Oh, sure. Absolutely.
Cathy: Know a lot about it.
Todd: Yeah, of course.
Chris: But involuntary, celibate, right? And I feel like that sort of positioning. And look, one of my favorite [00:23:00] songs is a Jason Isabel song called Relatively Easy. And there’s a great line ’cause our kind had it relatively easy. I e white men, we fucking have it.
Are we, do you cuss
Todd: that? No, I gotta keep not really stamping. It’s like, you guys are killing me. Yeah. You should try it.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. But I,
Cathy: we don’t want that e that explicit. Yes. And parents don’t listen to it.
Chris: Right. But I mean, the way the conversation is gone is that that’s it. We’re not getting back It reflect, it required a little bit of bravery for Shaun to even write that piece because it’s so easy to get shot down when all you might be really saying is this the best way for us to facilitate this conversation?
Right. Right, right. Because, you know, you’re, you might lead to you, you’re not gonna get the support of the people on the other side, the quote unquote other side, when you pin each other against one another, the way that type of headline
Cathy: does. And the response that comes up, I think is the, ah, There’s a feeling of walking on eggshells [00:24:00] with language.
Where as, and again, I’m speaking, I’m this old woman here. When women, typically, people don’t walk on eggshells around us, there’s like a, I’m gonna say what I wanna say, sorry, I’m gonna call you that. I’m going to use that word. You know, you know, there’s a, obviously it’s more intense now where people are more thoughtful about their language.
But again, you know, like you said, Chris, it’s not that’s always the way it is. I think it’s shifting, but that’s why women respond that way because we’ve been in meetings. I used to be the only woman in meetings in my first job, you know, in my twenties. And nobody cared that I was there and said lots of awful things about women and I had to kind of just take it.
And so then when men are like, but that’s not really nice, or that doesn’t feel good. It’s like, well dude, and I’m not saying that’s okay. That’s why this conversation is good. It’s not me saying, so you guys take it. It’s about saying that’s why people respond that way. So you guys. And you could probably tell me many life stories where you’re like, that’s not true at all.
[00:25:00] But there, there is a feeling I think, among women of you guys haven’t had the experiences we’ve had, and so it’s almost like, you know, we have to almost exhaust all of our stories so you guys understand that we’ve walked through a different world. The story that Todd, I tell all the time on this, the podcast, but it just is a good generalization, is how often Todd has thought I’m neurotic.
Okay. In many different ways. You don’t need to lock the car. You don’t need to lock the house. Don’t worry about it. Dumb. I’m so bu I know. And he’s just like, he kind of like early in our relationship would roll my, his eyes thinking I’m less dumb than
Shaun: I’ve done some of that. Yes.
Cathy: I’m pretty sure.
I’d be like, now, when you came in, did you lock the door? He’s like, you don’t need to worry about it. I’m like, I don’t. Because I think I do with three girls in the house. ’cause you know what? I have been chased and I have been attacked and I, you know, like it’s this mentality now he gets it. But that the belief that women are neurotic versus life experience and obviously we hear this of, you know, when we’re talking about [00:26:00] diversity, when we’re talking, you know, people of color, stories about life experience.
You’re telling me that this isn’t happening, but this is happening. So it’s, I think this conversation is less about Shaun, you know, Shaun’s article and more about how we have these conversations so we understand where everybody’s coming from because. Everybody has a story and everybody has had experiences of not being seen, heard, valued.
Shaun: Well, and I, you know, I think partly too around this whole idea of, so what we’re doing, I think at Men Living is partially we’re bringing guys together so that they can connect with other men, but for me anyways, if they’re not, If they’re not gaining, you know, be by being more emotional and more open and more engaged, not going out into the world and doing that with other people.
Right. Which is a, you know, it’s almost like fighting against the conditioning almost. Is, is kind what we’re doing. A re a not, maybe not a reconditioning, but if that’s not happening, it’s only half the job. Right. I as far [00:27:00] as I’m concerned. Right.
Todd: Well, I, yeah, I think some of the spaces we create, there’s wonderful guys that are breaking down in the middle of a meeting and tapping into their emotions, and then they’ll go home and act the same way.
Like, why are you even coming here? Yeah. It’s not going to, what if you go to a church, you know, take yoga off the mat. I mean, all these ideas that we learn in these spiritual places, I’ll call ’em. If you’re not taking it outside of the 60 minute church or the 60 minute yoga session or the 60 minute men’s group meeting, then it’s.
It’s less than half the battle. Like, great, you’re here, but how are you gonna carry this forward? And the people who most want us men to be more mature are women. I mean, there’s no doubt about it. It’s not for us, it’s for all of us. Because if the world. Gets more impactfully if we evolve as a human species, if we have to evolve more quickly as a [00:28:00] collective group of men.
Yeah.
Chris: But that doesn’t happen with one 60 minute Men Living meeting or one therapy session, right? Right. So I mean, I think that the, I think that the real gold that comes out of any man or woman of any color asking for help is that they’re willing to, Work at something and get better at, like, I’m, I used to talk about Men Living retreats is I’d come back from those Men Living retreats and I’d be a better husband and a better dad for six weeks.
And then I’d revert back. And with each year that six weeks went longer and longer,
Todd: I would like to get Manisha to attest to that. But then it lasted six weeks. Yeah.
Cathy: She checks her calendar.
Chris: Six weeks is arbitrary. I was just trying to give an example. Six hours. But six hours is better than zero hours.
Yeah. Right. And so the fact that people are increasingly, hopefully willing to ask for help and willing to work on themselves is that’s a
Shaun: Win. So I have this cra crazy theory. I’ll just [00:29:00] throw it out there. That. Because we’ve been here a nanosecond, right. As human beings. And men were able to angle themselves to, to establish the patriarchy and be in control.
But it didn’t last very long because we’re not smart. We’re really not stronger than women. Right. And now it’s going backwards. It’s like, and so it’s like, and now it’s gonna be hard to say, well, wait, don’t forget us. Can you help? I think it’s going the other way and that’s why it’s gone the other way.
And so now how do we keep up? It’s correcting. It’s No, no doubt about it. It’s correcting, right? Yeah.
Cathy: I used to, there was this one woman that I saw at a conference a long time ago, and I love what she said. And it’s that we’ve been like a bird flapping with one wing. And that, you know, that’s obviously patriarchal.
Yeah. You know, con, you know, conditioning and that when we’re just trying to spread the other wings so we can fly more balanced and the problem where we are right now is [00:30:00] that I agree that there ha we’re seeing some shifts even though we’re also seeing some steps back. I mean, it’s very hard for me to have this conversation without talking about Roe v.
Wade. Yeah. Like, it is such a signi, you know, you’re talking about impact on people’s psyche, right. The impact, you know, when we’re talking about, you know, girls who are young who are seeing things, the impact on the psyche of a girl who’s getting her rights taken away. Somebody who’s saying to her, you must do this.
You don’t have control over your body is. So significant. So It just pops into my head every conversation we have. I can’t, I have to just lay that out on the table. But, you know, when we’re trying to spread this other wing to balance things out, the unfortunate thing is that not just men, all people, it becomes fear-based.
Right. Where will I be, I need to hold my position of power. What will this look like? Where I think women have more experience of, when I say shapeshifting, I don’t mean becoming fake, I mean accommodating a culture. That is not [00:31:00] seeing them. So they’re like, okay, where do I fit? Then how do I do this?
How do I change my voice? How do I change my clothes? Where you guys aren’t as used to that. And so the fear, so in cells are a good example, you know, of like, you know, going inside, having dark. Getting negative violence. And I’m not claiming that all Intels are violent it, but there is a tendency of hatred.
Is, don’t, don’t you guys feel like
Todd: piece Yeah. By definition. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What was I gonna say? Yeah, I think my biggest problem is I compare, like, let’s say you have a 15 year old boy and a 15 year old girl, and I still think without, it’s not even close that it’s harder to be a 15 year old girl.
And that’s me being a co-founder of a men’s organization saying sometimes it’s tough being a guy. And I think my problem is I’m always being like, yeah, there’s, you know, if you’re a 15 year old boy, there’s less jobs and you know, our brain develops slower and all these things. But if you compare, from my [00:32:00] perspective, if I compare that to the journey of a typical 15 year old girl, like.
I’ll be a man every single time. ’cause I think my path is easier than it is a woman. I don’t know if that’s true, but that’s my bias.
Chris: But it’s all relative, right? Like, I think we get ourselves into trouble. We’re like it’s hard to be a girl and it’s not hard to be a boy. I agree with you.
It’s harder to be a girl. It’s harder to be a woman. It’s harder to be a person of color. It’s harder to be in the LGBTQ community than it is to be me. And ho hopefully you’re not, you’ll never hear me do a woe is me. But I don’t, I think that when the conversation, and this happens a lot with social media in the news, when you have a sensationalized headline that doesn’t even mention women or people of color.
Right. Who we should be celebrate whom we should be celebrating. Sorry. Mania. I again, you’re not only, you’re not doing them a service, but you’re creating this environment of tension.
Todd: Of [00:33:00] tension. Yeah. Yeah. You’re, so, I, yeah. I don’t wanna put words in your mouth, Shaun, but there’s a division being created by that headline and you’re like, why are we dividing?
Why can’t we all be in it? So, yep. You want me
Cathy: to say more? Sure. No, I, no, I was joking ’cause you were looking at me like I was gonna have something. I mean, I, the. The thing about this conversation is that everybody is dealing with their own history and past and their own fears. And for as like, whenever the reason I have certain responses to you, Todd, like you, you just told me something that a man said to you the other day and I had a really strong response to it.
I think it was something about pride month or something. I don’t remember. You said that, you know, there was some saying why.
Todd: Oh yeah. I was talking to a friend of mine and I think he knew at the time I had have a daughter who’s gay, and he’s like, I’m all for it. But the fact that we have to celebrate [00:34:00] for 30 days that somebody decides to love somebody of the same gender.
And we have two days to honor the military veteran veterans out there, Memorial Day and Veterans Day, they’re like, it’s outta whack. Like we’re spending way too much attention on the LGBTQ community and not nearly as much attention on veterans who have given up their lives for this country.
That was his proposition. I, once again, I am finding myself in these discussions where I can hold the space, try to look at it from his perspective. I’m sure he probably has a relative who died because he or she fought for this country. At this, at the end of the day, I’m like, I’m not feeling your vibe so well,
Cathy: and my big strong reaction to that is the month of June is not about every day celebrating something.
It’s about education. It’s about, you know, seeing people, it’s about the ability to engage with a community that a lot of people are unwilling to engage with. It’s about, [00:35:00] you know, Being, what’s the word I’m looking for, guys? Like being, you know, I’ll just say it again, being seen.
And it’s the same with February with Black History Month. It’s not, well, you know, when people like, well, I don’t get every day to focus on me. And obviously as we say, every day is about you. This is a month where we’re educating. And when it comes to, and again, traditionally when it comes to veterans, I totally understand, you know, that the VA hospitals don’t do well and that there’s not enough benefits.
Like I see all of that stuff that people are fighting for, but there is also a reverence. In our Chris is actually a, you know, former military member. Like, there’s a lot of reverence for that. You get to, you know, these are silly things, but you get to board a flight early. You get people stand up for you at a football game or at a graduation.
People love veterans. Even if we don’t show it in our legislation, which we should. But when it comes to the LGBTQ community or any other community that we’re trying to highlight, disability month, it’s education. And that’s the [00:36:00] misinformation is someone’s like, well, why do they be celebrated? I wanna be celebrated more.
And it’s, it’s, so to me it’s like this tiny shift of are we open to learning more? Yeah. Because even that comment is un uneducated. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And I don’t mean iq, I mean, like, that’s not what it’s for. Yeah. So I have very strong reactions sometimes, and sometimes I need to chill out.
Yeah. And be like, that’s coming from my own, you know, especially when it’s about women, men, LGBTQ, I just get very frustrated. But then I, when I’m actually with people, no one’s trying to, you guys, the amount of people. That we all associate in our lives, and Todd and I get to have these, you know, international communities with Team Zen and everything.
I just think everyone’s really great. I don’t run into these things I see on TikTok. Do you know what I mean? When people are like yelling at each other in stores. Self-selection. Right. Well, and that’s, and I have seen, obviously as a therapist, I hear bad stories too. It’s not it, there are things, it’s both, but I think most [00:37:00] people are trying their best with, even if they don’t have.
As much as everybody should have. It’s I’m just trying to flip the view of I don’t go out in the world and think everybody sucks. Yeah. You know, and I think a lot of us are really afraid of the world, but, you know, I also live a different experience than a lot of people. So it’s, there’s, it’s is a very messy conversation, which I love messy conversations.
Todd: Well, and I think that’s all I, that’s all I really wanna do at this point, is to be in a conversation with somebody whom I can disagree with and not judge the person right across from me. Right. And I think what happens, Behind the safety of a phone or seeing somebody on CNN or Fox that it’s just, it’s, you can’t cultivate that without being in proximity with the person, like live talking to them.
Yeah. So I just want to continue to cultivate conversations with people [00:38:00] of whom I disagree with, because I think that is a it’s a sacred place. You know, I’m doing a discussion on the podcast, the witch trials of JK Rowling in a few weeks. And, you know, it’s very divisive and I’m kind of nervous probably ’cause my wife said that You think I’m crazy for doing this?
Cathy: Well, I think that’s strong. I just said, are you sure you ready to do this? Yeah.
Todd: My answer is no, but I’m gonna do it anyways. Okay. All right. And so anyways, if you’re interested, that’ll be in the show notes if somebody wants to listen to that podcast and have a discussion because the right has demonized JK Rowling and the left has demonized JK Row and it gave me an opportunity to kinda look at things a little bit differently.
Shaun: Yeah. Well, and one of the things we talk about a lot in these kinds of conversations, if you don’t come into them, curious, right? It gets really difficult to have that kind of conversation, even if you know you’re with someone who is not where you’re at. It, I, for me anyways, [00:39:00] if I can get curious about their position, why they might be where they’re coming from.
You know, at least there’s a little bit of connection,
Chris: but, so this is the segue. So, yeah. This is the pop culture segue. So you guys know, I think that my next tattoo, which is only my second tattoo, ’cause I’m not gonna start getting tattoos unless they, they’re meaningful. For a long time it’s been, be curious, not judgmental, which I first discovered via Ted Lasso.
Of course. Yeah. But there’s now a competitor and it comes from the show, the Bear Every second counts. No, I like that one too. I think it came from the bear. It’s simply, listen better. So, because I mean, that’s not it’s not gonna be artistic, but it’s a, I think of a tattoo as a reminder. What’s my, where’s my cheat sheet?
Yeah. And I can look down at my arm and be like, just fucking
Todd: Somebody’s like the name. It’s
Shaun: gonna be on your arm though. You know where it’s gonna be. Like right there. Oh, so you could just remind
Cathy: yourself. Yeah. Season of [00:40:00] conversation. Chris is like, looks down in his arm.
Shaun: Excuse if it’s on your, because if it’s on your chest or you know, you have to ding on your back.
Like full back.
Todd: That too. Back. So, out of the last seven days, how many times do you think that you listen really poorly? Is it every day? And I don’t even know where I’m going with this question, but I think we all need to listen better, and I’m just curious to see how you grade yourself at listening.
Oh,
Chris: well, this has been sort of a mantra of mine for a long time. Back in my old organization we all worked on a thing called our equity stance, and it was basically a journal. And in various coaching relationships, I’ve been asked to challenge myself to think about what you can do to interrupt the patterns that are the most least helpful patterns that we assume.
And one of them has always been to like, pause, listen, empathize, before you speak. So it’s a it’s a work in progress. I think over the last five years I’ve gotten a lot better at it.
[00:41:00] And hopefully we’ll continue to get better at it.
Shaun: So, so what makes you a better listener?
What do you do to make yourself better?
Chris: Well, it’s funny ’cause Todd, for as almost as long as I’ve known him, he talks about how much time he spends in his head versus his heart. And I think when you’re in your head all the time and you’re thinking about what you’re gonna say or how you would react to whatever the other person is saying in is you’re not listening.
You’re simply not listening. Right. So, it’s also requires a level of patience. ’cause I’m always wanting to race the solution. I’m like, well the longer you talk,
Cathy: the further we are from this solving.
Chris: I do. I think about that a lot with you, Todd.
So just like being patient, breathing, empathizing. And I mean, it just sums up well with like, listen
Todd: better. I’ve been getting a lot of that. We had breakfast twice this weekend. [00:42:00] We have two brunches, two brunches,
Cathy: Saturday and Sunday.
Todd: I love brunch and when my family gets going on talking like it’s really hard to find a space to insert whatever it is that I wanna say.
And there’s a few moments where I’m like, I’m not gonna try, I’m just gonna just keep on listening. And what I was about to say wasn’t really that important anyways, but I just find it sometimes, like I. Guys, like, how about a pause? And it’s really because I have some active conversational people in my family.
They’re, and I’m not even looking at you. I’m thinking of both. Oh,
Cathy: I’m very actively,
Todd: of course you are. But I’m thinking of our kids Slacker. I know, right? I mean, I’m thinking of our three daughters too, and I’m like, they can really, like, I need to like, be very strategic on when I Yeah. Wanna interrupt because I’m like waiting for that pause and I’m, I sometimes I’m waiting for like 15 minutes.
I’m like, whatever.
Cathy: I have one suggestion. What is it? Instead of coming in with with like, well, here’s my experience with that or [00:43:00] this is what I think about it to just, to stay engaged is to say, when was that experience? Or what, so instead of coming in with new information, You stay engaged by asking another question.
Yeah. Like if one of the girls tells a story and then they’re like, yeah, and then this happened and this happened for you to be actually curious and be like, what year did that happen? Yeah. Like I feel like when someone just backs away from the conversation completely, it can actually, now again, we can handle it, but it can be uncomfortable for everybody else.
Because then, then they feel the need to like pull you in some like inorganic way. And I
Todd: sometimes I’m like, I’m out here. Even though I’m still sitting there, he’s like, I’ll take your food. I’ll take care of food. Yeah. I’ll just start eating everybody.
Shaun: So the four ladies are rejecting you? Yes.
Really? Basically what it is all the same. The one guy, they’re already like, we don’t eat, we don’t
Chris: need anything from him. This is why he started i’s living I love.
So can I go off
Cathy: on what Chris said about that?
Todd: I just need to, so, Hold on. I’m just gonna, amazing. Everybody knows what this [00:44:00] is, right? It’s one of my favorite Taylor Swift songs, by the way.
I love Yeah, me too. I knew it was Taylor Swift and I be the You
Shaun: did not know. No, I did. Of course. Yeah. What do you mean? Of course, I just
don’t
Chris: know the songs.
Todd: Shame on you. Right?
Shaun: You know who she is though right now.
Chris: I love when she sings with Bony Bear and oh
Todd: yeah. Chris Stapleton. Those are two of my favorites.
I play that just because I wanna play 10 minutes ago and then get a chance. But it’s what was I gonna say about this? Be a Man. I don’t even
Chris: remember. No one’s listening that don’t, here.
Todd: Well, oh, I remember. We’re at the concert, right? And Taylor we’re there in Denver. And Taylor, you did this really wonderful production to this song.
Correct. Like it’s really impactful and meaningful. And she’s like, you know, for the guys out there in this audience, this is not for you because,
Cathy: you know, if you’re here, you’re very emotionally intelligent. That’s what she said. And
Todd: I even thought in my head, I’m like, there’s, I don’t know, there’s 50,000 people in the stadium, [00:45:00] say 5,000 of ’em were men.
I’m guessing there’s quite a few of those 5,000 that are not emotionally
Cathy: well, she’s being loving toward her. Roger, she’s being lovingly toward, towards her, Roger. Obviously, she’s not gonna know everybody who’s there.
Todd: Right. But is it’s an indicator, right? Like if you’re, if somebody’s going to go to Taylor Swift concert it’s an indicator that you’re probably not an incel.
Chris: Well, that’s the self-selection thing that I referred to earlier when Cathy is like, all these Zen, you know, Parenting folks are wonderful. Right. I got the same reaction when my family went down to the Brandy Carlisle Festival. Girls just wanna, which is I. Predominantly lesbian, right? Yeah. And I think it was Brandy or one of the artists gave a shout out to all the guys who showed up.
Because I mean, it’s important that we show up. Even if it’s just because you love that song.
Todd: Yeah.
Cathy: Yeah. And can I wanna add something to what you said, Chris, about the, you know, ’cause you’re right, like I, when I’m talking about the people I get to associate with, but don’t you guys feel this is not just me, but when I go to Target or when I go to the grocery store or when I’m like out help, you know, [00:46:00] you’re helping someone on their it’s not just the people I associate with.
I feel like people are nice. Like I don’t run in to a lot of people. And maybe it’s because of the way I’m beginning a conversation or that I don’t need anything from that person, or I’m not hurrying them along. But even the people that I just don’t. Run into those situations very much.
Shaun: Couldn’t agree more.
And I, and my guess would be that because you’re engaging them yeah. In a wonderful way. Yeah. That it’s, I it, if you’re going to the grocery store, you’re gonna Starbucks. Yeah. It’s likely that many people, they see, are they gonna be complaining. Right. And you’re just saying, how’s your day? Right.
And so you’re starting that connection in a great way. Right. I would agree. I think when that happens, for the most part, People are wonderful.
Cathy: Yes. So it’s sometimes people, it’s people I don’t know at all. And I’m like, I can’t believe that, you know, some of the things again that I just see on TikTok or whatever, where people are like having to record people and there’s all these awful things and I know they happen.
Like it’s not me saying that doesn’t happen. Like I know the world again ’cause my [00:47:00] clients are telling me what’s happening to them. Yeah. So it’s not like blinders, it’s just there is another way we can do this. Yeah. That’s kind of the Absolutely. That’s kind of the thing. But one more thing I wanna say to Chris because he said about, and then I’m gonna switch it to a different topic.
Sure. That’s fine. I. Had to do something for a woman was putting out a book and she said, can you just like give one tip to parents? Like, you know, as one, it was like a virtual summit thing. And the thing that I was like what tip could I give to parents? And it’s just to know less so like listen better and know less.
Yeah. Right.
Chris: Yeah. Let’s be curious.
Right, right. Curious. Don’t assume that you know all the answers.
Cathy: Exactly. And that’s, it’s so funny with language when it comes to, you know, this kind of work that we do because be curious has almost become mundane, right? People are like, yeah, I know. Be curious. And it’s like, no, really know less.
Yeah. Yeah. You know,
Todd: I can I
Chris: share a quick story in response to that. So I feel like the older I get and the more success I have, which is not a lot but the more I’m [00:48:00] able to successfully navigate life Yeah. The more inclined I am to think that I don’t need help. Yeah. Right. And this happened to me recently and a relatively new job where I’m like, I went through a couple months where made a series of mistakes.
Yeah. Wasn’t living up to my own expectations of myself, was to live it up to my boss’s expectations. And for the first time in my life I’m like, I’m gonna pay someone to coach me. Nice. And I’m 53 years old, so, it felt. It felt hard at first. But it’s like therapy too. It’s like just go get a second set of ears.
Someone to listen to you someone to validate you and then someone to like help you see things that you may not be
Todd: able to see. Challenge you a little bit. Yeah. And you’re going, you’re
Shaun: gonna go take golf lessons. So it’s like, and I’m taking
Chris: my first golf lesson on
Todd: Saturday going, let’s, yeah. So to Shaun’s point, yeah, you’re 53 and in 2023 you are doing something for the first time in [00:49:00] two different areas of your life.
Yeah. So I think that is a sign of being less certain and being less egoic. So I think that is helpful. Right. Did you see me hit the
Chris: golf ball last week? Well, do I have any reason to be certain about anything?
Todd: We’re proud of you. It was a ugly. Okay. So another item I think we disagree on, how’s that for a, here we go.
Here we go. Here we go. Dig in. And I think I’m the most in so it’s about frameworks. Okay. Right. And I love frameworks, sweetie. I think you’re kind of with me, but not as much. And I think, and I don’t wanna misjudge Shaun and Crystal, they’ll speak for themselves, but I just wrote down the top of my head frameworks that I use to navigate my world.
15 commitments to conscious leadership. Seven habits, highly effective people, four male archetypes, the Enneagrams. Lu Fu, which is something Gaddis taught about how to listen. So I find these unbelievably valuable. Yeah. In how I [00:50:00] navigate my world. Yeah. Sweetie, where are you in your relationship to frameworks?
And then I want to hear these two clowns.
Cathy: So, I think that they’re out there so people can understand themselves better. It’s not about ever engaging with a framework where you’re like, this is the way life is. I’ve had you know, I’ve gone down that path before as I’ve talked about a lot. I’ve had a lot of cultish experiences where I’ve engaged with frameworks where I could not bust out of it. Where now I don’t see them as limiting to my life. They’re the way that we get language to discuss life. So something like the Enneagram I, the reason I appreciate it is because it’s a conversation that you and I can have about the differences in how we experience, we run a business together.
My thing as somebody who identifies as a two, it’s very relationship based. I’m not focusing on the financials. I’m focusing on how do we feel? How does, how are we connecting where you are as a three, you’re more ambitious. You’re more worried about the [00:51:00] finances. I don’t walk around saying it’s because he’s a three and he is a Taurus, and he is like, I’m not.
It’s just, it helps us see each other as having m. similar interests, but coming from a different direction. Yeah. So it’s like I am, it’s a very porous system. Do does that, I don’t know if that word works, but it’s, I like them, but I also don’t think of them as identity. So it’s like, it’s a tool and as a therapist, as, or as a teacher, like I teach college students, I have to have frameworks, right.
To teach college students. Like, you have to have something. I can’t just teach them generalization all the time.
Todd: And we’ve been doing Zen Parenting for over 13 years. Do we have a framework? No. I mean, self-awareness. Well, you should get one. Yeah. I mean, connection.
Shaun: It could be way better if you had a framework
Cathy: connection, mindfulness, self-awareness, and and compassion.
And
Todd: would you categorize that as if I don’t think of that
Cathy: as a, no. I call those the grounding forces. Okay.
Todd: So, all right. What do you guys say? Yeah.
Chris: Well, to be clear, [00:52:00] I’m not anti framework, I’m anti proliferation of frameworks. Okay. Like how many framework, speaking of golf, there’s that old golf joke I’ve shared with you guys before where it’s like two buddies are out playing and every shot for the first 12 holes, one guy hits.
He’s like, oh, I looked up, oh, my right elbow was out. Oh, I got ahead of, oh, it was too quick. This and that. And by the 13th hole, his buddy looks at him, he goes, I think I figured out your problem. You suck. Right. Because if you’re trying to, it’s, and like the golf swing of like, you’re trying to think of all these things at once, and if you’re trying to think, oh, well I’m a two on the Enneagram and oh you know, I should do the SWOT analysis and you know, whatever else, K J B or whatever.
Yeah, exactly. My, yeah. My Myers Briggs is this
Todd: Yeah. An I N F P. Yeah.
Chris: I don’t even know. I just think that sometimes we can get in our own way. Yeah. And so, and by the way, you know, people. I mean, this happens. I, you know, I went to business school. I [00:53:00] mean, the proliferation of frameworks is nowhere greater than that.
Right? And so a lot of times you’ve got all these frameworks that are created to monetize, you know, intellectual property and, but they’re also redundant and duplicative. And, you know, now you’ve got people trying to use your framework with the one that you copied from, but put different acronym around it.
So that’s my position. I’m not as anti framework as you think. Okay.
Todd: Shaun?
Shaun: I, well, I think I’ve run into a lot of people who use it as their identity, right? And so when someone’s like, well, I’m a two and that means this is how I’m gonna be, and, or my Myers-Briggs is this, it’s like, oh, okay.
You don’t have to be any of this. And so they’re bringing that identity thing. And that’s so frameworks, labels. Yeah. You know, people wanna say, okay, this is my label, this is my identity. You know My job that I did for 40 years, that’s my identity, and I can’t let that go. Well, you’re more than that.
Yeah. It’s only [00:54:00] one thing. So it’s more the connection to the framework
Todd: as defining who they are. Yeah. So whenever anybody identifies with a framework, you’re like, you just lost me. Because you’re so much more than any label identity framework that you could be Yeah. That would be my day.
Chris: Yeah. But, and I think sometimes those frameworks become cheats, right? They keep people from being curious. Because they’re like, oh, I need a framework. ’cause I need to be able to pinpoint where I am on the quadrant I’m in. Yeah. Right. And so suddenly they stop thinking creatively or introspectively or, and their self-awareness Yeah.
Goes down because there too, right? Yeah. Yes.
Cathy: The critical thinking ends. And I, you know, I think that, I have kind of always looked at self-help or just personal growth or whatever. Again, we always need new words ’cause they start to like, know? But I look at it as cycles. And there are, and it’s funny ’cause you can come right back around to like, even in the yoga world, you know, like when I first, you know, got into yoga, you know, I went from just being like a student where I’m like, I’m doing this pose, I’m doing [00:55:00] this pose.
And then you get into yoga and you’re like, no, this has a name. This has a purpose. Now say it in Sanskrit. Now only say it in Sanskrit. Now blend. And you have to, you’re like developing this identity. And then my favorite part of yoga was when I was able to let all of that go. And occasionally I would say it something in Sanskrit, but that was because I chose it and it wasn’t because someone was telling me to.
Yeah. And I would say, and so things go in cycles where I think it depends on where you. Meet someone, like if someone has felt really in, you know, growing up that they were overly sensitive or didn’t connect with the world, and all of a sudden they realize they’re Myers-Briggs. You know, and they’re like, oh wait, this is a thing.
Like I, there are other people like me or someone who is di you know, we talk a lot about diagnosis with kids and the necessity of it and also the limiting, you know, parts of it. But sometimes when you get the diagnosis, initially you’re like, thank goodness I know what to call this. And then you spend your life kind of figuring out how that works or doesn’t work for you.
Yeah. So I think, Shaun, to you, [00:56:00] I struggle with this too. This is. Interesting. Todd, I think he’s, you guys, he may be getting on your case about frameworks, but I’m on his case about frameworks because he’s always, you know, he’s always saying back to me, is this below the line or above the line? And I’m like, I’m just here.
I’m not on a line. See the line? I don’t see a line. And so I’m, but I also understand the necessity of it. It’s like, I do appreciate knowing, because I didn’t, I felt like I had to be an extrovert and do all these things. And when I realized who I was like, oh, I can settle into this. And I don’t feel alone.
Shaun: Well, I, you know, I’ve told your husband, as we’ve talked a lot about frameworks that, you know, he brings out the next set of frameworks or the next set of tools and occasionally I’ll ask them, what’s yours? I mean, what who are you in amongst all these different fields? Right? And you like to have multiple tools, but.
There’s something, amalgamation of all that is you.
Todd: Yeah. Great. I think is important. The ones that speak most to me, Todd, go ahead and make your own up. [00:57:00] Yeah. Instead of just jump on somebody else’s Yeah. Idea of what something is.
Shaun: And it’s not to say that maybe that one is the best one for you. Yeah. But sometimes I think there’s something there that is just yours.
Yeah. And whether you’re willing to Right. To have it be yours
Todd: or not Right. Is kinda up to you. Well, I think where I come out is I feel like frameworks are like I, the way I explain money is not good or bad. It’s neutral. It just depends on what energy you give to it. And I kind of feel the same thing about frameworks.
Like, and I probably overvalue them. At the expense of my own curiosity or at the expense of coming up with my own. And then I think there’s other times where they do have value. So I think that’s
Cathy: where I come out. Well, and I think that something, a lot of times this doesn’t happen as much, but therapists will say, you know, what kind of, how do you do therapy?
Are you a Gestalt therapist? Are you, do you use CBT? Do you use DBT? And I’m like, I don’t know anymore. I know all those frameworks. You [00:58:00] want me to tell you what they are, but when I’m with someone, I’m very focused on that person. And then there’s this humanness that comes forward that is based in education, but it’s kind of like all of those words fade away.
And I feel like you as a coach, Todd, I feel from what you’ve been telling me lately, is you’re starting to experience that a lot more.
Todd: Well, I needed to learn it by the letter. Yeah. So, you know, and that’s what I was taught, like learn it really well. So you could just let it go. Break it up, yeah.
And make it your own. Yeah. And I’m getting to that point where I can, you know, like, oh, this would be good. I was just on somebody last week. We did not go through the traditional way we start, but there was a moment where I’m like, this is where he needs to go and this is the tool I’m gonna pull out within this larger framework that I’ll help him.
So, and that just comes with experience. Just more I do it, the better I get at it. So I wanna do the last section on your guys’ podcast, and if you have any questions for us on our podcast, but I just wanna list a few of the people that you guys have interviewed that I kind of highlighted that were kind of [00:59:00] important to me.
The, my favorite podcast you guys have ever done is when you interviewed Matthew Quick, will you guys explain who that guy is?
Chris: Matthew Quick found us, or his publisher found us. He is the author of the novel Silver Linings Playbook about which a movie was made or a movie was made based on that novel.
And he recently wrote a new novel called We are the Lights. Which deals with some some topics like mental health mass shooting. And I think Shaun and I both loved the movie. Or, sorry, loved the book. Had already loved Silver Linings Play book. And then when we met him, I felt like a fanboy.
Because he was so engaging and so interesting and so smart, and obviously such a great communicator. So, I think we talked, I think Matthew and we stayed on the line for an hour and a half that
Todd: night. Yeah. Yeah. [01:00:00] Do you have fond memories of that interview? Oh, outstanding.
Shaun: Outstanding. I mean, it’s he ended up sending us, which I brought the other night all nine of his novels Oh, wow.
To read. I’m halfway through and they’re outstanding and I follow his newsletter. Now. He does a sub stack newsletter. Just a very thoughtful guy. He’s in recovery. From alcohol and drugs and I just, yeah. Just a wonderful man.
Todd: A few other names I highlighted was Dave Dunn, who was some type of expert on anorexia.
That was a, an interesting one. Jim Demer, who’s one of my mentors, Alexa James. And then Billy Baker was an early one. And Billy Baker’s some newspaper writer, but he ended up going on new kids on the block cruise. Is that what happened?
Shaun: Well, he ended up doing a piece on men, male relationships.
Yeah. Friend relationships. And one of the things he wanted to explore was, okay, how do women do [01:01:00] this? And so he decided to go on the nsync or not nsync, on new kids on the block. And it was just all women and him and John. Is it?
Chris: Oh, one of the members. One of the members. Why don’t you look me?
Shaun: How would I know? I don’t, I was hoping Cathy was gonna, Jonathan Knight. John Knight, yeah.
Todd: Jonathan Knight. I’ll
Cathy: tell you, I know who they all are. Jonathan, don’t
Todd: look at this guy, Jonathan Knight.
Shaun: Well, you were doing the show lives up the street from him, and so you we were giving him, we were, I was, we were giving him a hard time about the fact that, well, do you go up there and like tell him that you’re on the cruise?
So no, he’s a lot of fun. He writes for the Boston Globe. Yeah.
Todd: And he wrote the book. And I would say the theme, I mean, you guys interview a whole bunch of different types of people, but a lot of it is about male relationships. If there’s a secondary theme to, if you’ve come this far podcast, what would it be?
Chris: I can tell you because we have a CRM.
Cathy: What does that mean?
Chris: Client relationship?
Todd: Is that a framework that it’s a framework that you [01:02:00] should think about? Yeah.
Chris: Well, you mentioned Alexa James, she was even earlier than Billy Baker. Yeah, I think, and Alexa’s a friend of all of ours. Yeah. Alexa’s the executive director at NAMI Chicago and I dunno if she was the first one that, that was focused primarily on mental health, but I think almost half of our guests are in some way doing work in life to address the mental health challenges. That seem to be. You know, everywhere these days. Well, two
Shaun: things about that. First of all, you didn’t mention yourself. You’ve been on the show twice. That’s right. And and actually the one we did on Father. Father Hymes, on Father Hymes was really good. I think, and Alexa is the number one.
Listen to podcast advice by like two times, right? Yeah. That might get to
Todd: you a little bit. Yes. Well, we’ll see. Maybe we could do some specific promotions in my podcast.
Cathy: Well, you know, what I, she’s thinking is, I know there’s a lot of people who listen to Zen Parenting. We typically, we have a much more female [01:03:00] audience than male, but there are men who listen and a lot of times they don’t wanna jump into Men Living ’cause they don’t, they like Todd, but they’re like, I don’t know what this is.
Yeah. But starting by listening to your podcast may be a really good place to like know, first of all, know the two of you but also realize the things, the discu, the things that are interesting to Men Living.
Shaun: Yeah. So actually our, the one we’re gonna post this week is Tony Rivers, who started a podcast in a company called Women in Con, or Moms in Construction.
Mothers in Construction. Mothers in Construction. Wonderful woman, smart as hell. And just bringing attention to women Nice. In the construction industry. So, I don’t know, we half and half. Men and women?
Todd: No, not quite. Not quite. No. But we have some I have the list.
Shaun: We have women in the can for sure.
Get
Todd: produced for sure. Yeah. Yeah. A few others. Pauly Bernstein, is that how you pronounce his last name? Bernstein. Born Bernstein Today. He just had a really interesting take on his attitude towards [01:04:00] recovery. Yeah. He’s a an addict and no longer is somebody who practices any type of addiction, but his take was 12 Step is great for some people, but that’s not the only way to get sober.
That’s right. Yeah. And I thought it was really interesting. He works as an addiction counselor now. Yeah. Yeah. In Ohio. And then your buddy, Dr. John Sherman, was impactful enough on your podcast that you brought him into your speech when you were doing a speech for your daughter at her wedding.
Yeah. And what was the thing that he said that you thought was interesting?
Shaun: That, so he’s a psychotherapist and a couple’s counselor. And that he often talks to his couples the couples that he’s counseling. The first time he talks about the absurdity of marriage. So yeah, I brought that up at my daughter’s wedding.
The absurdity of marriage and I and what we talk about with him is he’s using humor to try to disarm and talk about, okay, think about what we do as we get into a marriage and how, and our [01:05:00] expectations and what we’re told it’s gonna be. And you know, I just thought it was, I just thought it was a great a great line. Yeah. So, shrm, shr, m’s. Yeah. A good interview.
Chris: Great interview. And marriage is just hard and parenting is hard. And so if we don’t just acknowledge that at the outset we’re setting ourselves up for disappointment, if not failure. Right? Yeah.
Todd: Before we turn it around, do you have any other questions for these two guys?
Cathy: We need to go back to the new kids on the block thing. Oh. Because the question was, let’s get to the part of this. Let’s get to, let’s get to this. His brother Jordan Knight is also in New Kids on the block. The you, this guy went to this thing for New Kids on the Block to figure out what women do.
And it’s funny, I Backstreet Boys do a cruise that I’ve tried to get Todd to do with me and he will go see them with me, but he’s like, that’s just a line too far. Yeah. Yeah. But I think what women do well, and I’m gonna speak generally, I always have to like frame this as like, this is not every woman, but typically women do a good job of making sure that they make [01:06:00] relationships a priority. So they will schedule annual trips, they will schedule biannual trips, they will make sure that they have lunches on the books. They will make sure that, and they often build it around, things like that. Like their history, you know, like, we love new kids on the block as you know, so let’s go do that again.
And it’s not because they really, it’s not because it’s their favorite band, it’s because that’s a, it’s a common place that they can all meet. You know, that would always happen with the Zen Parenting Conference too. You know, like people would be like, this is our annual event. And I think men do a good job at that.
I know, Chris, you do that a lot with men in your lives. I know Todd does. Shaun, you may as well. So it doesn’t have to be gender specific, but. I think that is some, I think women are really skilled in that area.
Todd: Well, and I, as I think about, like you just had a weekend with your buddy. Yeah.
And it was I haven’t even talked to you yet, but I’m guess plenty of drinks watching baseball. And then you go golfing with certain buddies quite often. And then [01:07:00] you did that boating thing that was kind of interesting. Yeah.
Chris: My buddies and I sailed the North Channel up in lake Huron. We chartered a boat.
It was one of the great weeks of my life. Yeah. But and we’re, hopefully we’ll do that again, although we’re all getting older.
Todd: But do you think we are exceptions the fact that us three guys do that? And is it more common for women in their fifties and sixties to do that than men?
Chris: I agree with Cathy.
I mean, I think women are generally better at that. There’s also this thing that happens as you get older where it’s like you get more and more friends and if you’re not careful, you know, you overcommit and, you know, I think you have to just pri prioritizing is the key, right? Can’t say yes to everything.
Todd: Right. Any questions that you guys have for Cathy and I regarding Zen Parenting Radio?
Chris: Yeah I got one. So Todd, I think you were our first guest on, if you’ve come this far. Yes. I tried to pull up episode one of Zen. I couldn’t find it. [01:08:00] Right. I also remember hearing you say on a podcast that, After like the first three or five, I forget what you said.
If it had been up to you, you would’ve Yeah. Yeah. Bagged the whole
Todd: thing. Well, not bagged it, but I would’ve run out of things to share. So we are on podcast 700 and whatever I said 723, and for about 713 of those 723, it’s me asking Cathy a question is what do you got for tomorrow’s show? Because for me, I’m like, I got nothing. Empty. Zero. Nothing going on up here. It’s not true. I’m much better at riffing than creating an initiat. Playing the baby sounds.
Cathy: Yes. The baby
Todd: crying. Yeah.
Chris: You’re like, Sterns, who? Sterns.
Part of me thinks we should get some of those and part of me thinks no. Sounds like a lot of work. It sounds like a lot of work.
Todd: Yeah. It takes like [01:09:00] four seconds by the way.
Chris: Can I have one more thing. Go ahead. No,
Todd: go ahead. Yeah. ’cause your first one so interesting. Well I wanna
Chris: go back and hear one through three. That was the whole point of my question. Like, are the, did you guys like archive those so that no one can hear?
Because
Cathy: Todd was you what it used to be on such a different format. ‘Cause Todd, we’ve been doing this for 13 years and so like the, we used to use a completely different, like we had a different producer. ‘Cause now Todd’s been our producer for 10 of the 13 years. But so everything and it was so old, like iTunes doesn’t carry,
Todd: iTunes only carries like the last 250.
Yeah. So I’m pretty sure you can go back to episode one, but you have to go through our website and listen to it on it through the website. Oh wow. Not on any podcast catcher.
Cathy: And it was, and I, at the time, we were working with a group that was like, you should do, I don’t know if you guys know this, but when we first started the people who were kind of mentoring us, and they were very helpful in some ways, but they really wanted us to fight.
That was like their thing. Oh yeah. They’re [01:10:00] like, you gotta build some tension. You gotta fight. It’s gotta be you against him. And I’m like, I’m not gonna fight with you. Like I, first of all, you’re like,
Chris: first of all, we never fight you. Right.
Cathy: We never, ever disagree about anything. Well, and that’s what’s funny is we disagree about so much.
Todd
Todd: and I used to say in the early days, like, let’s save this for the show. Like, let’s have this discussion on the podcast and Cathy’s like, f that. No way.
Cathy: That’s not, it’s not for public consumption. I will talk about anything once we’ve like, worked through it and I’ll talk about all the emotion. It’s not about that we perfected something, it’s just, it’s too raw.
Like, I’m not gonna share that with people because then what other people say about it will affect me. ’cause I haven’t cleared it in myself. Yeah. And again, I know I’m losing using clinical language, but it’s like I’ll bring something once I’m settled because we do get emails from people and they will say this, but I’ve already I’m like, I totally get your point, but this is how I experienced it.
Yeah. But we obviously didn’t fight, but we don’t agree. No, like we definitely have [01:11:00] disagreements. Two
Todd: human beings aren’t supposed to agree all the time. So
Shaun: seven are in 23 episodes. Yeah. We don’t wanna break news today necessarily, but how much longer do you think you’ll do this? Is there any chance you’re like, God, a thousand we’re done?
Todd: I don’t think so. I think we might have to relabel it. Zen Grandparenting Radio eventually. But I don’t know. I was just talking to somebody and they’re like, how hard is it to have these discussions. I’m like, we’re gonna have ’em many ways. We just do it in front of microphones. I mean, it’s so no end in sight and that doesn’t even count the amount of Zen Talks we’ve done.
We’ve done 170, so if you count that one 70 plus seven, 20, we’re getting close to a thousand.
Shaun: Yeah. Well, just even where you’re going in the growth of Teams end and what you’ve done with Circle and all the rest. I mean, you’re, that’s real. Relatively new. Yeah. You’re just really Yeah. Investing in that aspect of Yeah.
Podcast.
Cathy: Yeah. This doesn’t and maybe you guys can relate to this as podcasters, this doesn’t feel like work to me, so I don’t [01:12:00] even think about this as like a job. This is a we committed to this years and years ago where we don’t even think about, you know, how there’s some things you’re like, oh, I don’t have time this week.
That, that’s not, that never is on our, we always have time
Todd: and we have such an inherent advantage to other podcasters in my judgment. Guys live in, work together, live in two different houses. Yeah. And there’s, you know, I think Duffy has all this podcasts and it’s hard to coordinate with his someone else’s schedule, with somebody else’s schedule.
And I happen to be married to somebody who always has something interesting to share. So, you know, we’re about to record another one and I think we have like, eight words written down on a piece of paper and we’re gonna talk about it for an hour, so, right.
Cathy: Yeah, it’s fun. And also, can I, the other thing, and again, I know Todd was joking about listeners and everything, but please don’t get me wrong, I obviously want people to listen this show, and I hope it continues to grow, like we’ve stayed.
We’ve stayed pretty solid in the world of podcasting when it comes to parenting. But the goal is for, it’s not about let’s do this and then we’ll get more listeners. ’cause [01:13:00] obviously if we did more interviews, that’s what grows your base. Yeah. And I, that’s not super inter, sometimes it is like, I like having you guys here.
Like I like doing the things where this is like a fun conversation, but to just push other people’s books and that kind of thing, that doesn’t, that’s not fun to me.
Todd: I get bored. Yeah. If I’m gonna be bored I think the listener’s gonna be bored. So I only wanna have people on that are really interesting to me.
And I know we always kind of make fun of each other. ’cause that’s guy language. But you two are two of the most important men in my life. Yeah. And I was totally excited to sit down with you guys. Yeah. And that’s, you know, sorry to plug Men Living, but there’s so many lonely guys out there, and we make it so easy for guys to connect with other guys.
We have nine different meetings every single week. We have all these different connecting platforms. It’s unbelievable. So if there’s a man out there, if there’s somebody out there listening that knows, a man that would love to, you know, lean into some type of connection I don’t know if we can make it any easier for them.
Yeah, absolutely.
Shaun: So, yeah. [01:14:00] Well, and the, and just the other thing I wanna say about the podcast is in parenting radio, is you talking to people about it. It’s like, don’t be fooled by the parenting. And I know there’s a lot of parents that, that you have, but I’d just like to remind them, Hey, give it a listen and don’t be, it’s the parenting part of
Todd: it is it’s not a parenting podcast, a parent at all. Right, right. That was a hook. Yeah.
Cathy: Yeah. And it was not to, you know, to trick people as much as I don’t think parenting is, Parenting either. I think it’s just relating to, and it’s been, what’s fun about it is, you know, when we started this, I think JC was like 10 and now she’s tw or no, even longer.
She was eight. Yeah, she was younger and now we’ve been able to, ’cause a lot of people would say to us when our kids were little, oh, you guys will say this now, but wait until they’re this age. Wait until they’re this age. I’m like, it’s not about that we don’t have problems. We have just as many problems as everybody else.
It’s about. It’s about staying connected to your kids and having a relationship with them. That’s all I’ve ever wanted to talk about. And I think people fear that if they do that when [01:15:00] their kids are eight or nine, then they’re, they’ll lose authority or they won’t have, and it’s like you actually gain it and not over them.
But you continue because now I have two adult daughters. Right. And so they can choose whether or not to be in relationship. Yes. Right? Yep. And they choose. We like being together because they have always felt like they could be themselves in the house, but that’s when your kids are little. We got a lot of pushback.
Like, you guys dunno what you’re talking about yet. You know what I mean?
I,
Shaun: you know, I think it’s a great, so Lisa’s birthday is tomorrow and she’s like, well the girls, we usually do a dinner. Yeah. And she’s like, well the girls don’t what have to come out. It’s a ha. ’cause both Katie and busier in the city, it’s a hassle to come from the city.
They wanna come out. And so it’s like, you know, if they’re willing to go through that Right. Hell of a traffic to come out and be with you. Yeah. They’re like, yeah, let’s not fight it.
Chris: Well, happy birthday at least, even though this isn’t gonna run until August. And by the way, someone else has a birthday coming up.
That’s right. Yeah. Right.
Cathy: 52 baby.
Chris: That’s right. 52, just getting
Todd: better and better. Such a [01:16:00] Leo. Yeah. Such a Leo.
Chris: Geez. Number two. Leo.
I INFP
Todd: well, and to reinforce that point of frameworks when Cathy was just talking, it reminded me of Dan Siegel’s framework of parenting, and we want our kids to be safe.
Seen, soothed and secure. And if we could do those four things, then you’re in a it’s not, Absolute, but odds are you’re gonna be in relationship with a human being as long as you’re, as long as you’re both alive and it’s a positive relationship. Yeah. Instead of us trying to discipline and teach our kids and trying to model and mold them in a certain way, if they feel safe, seen suit and secured, then odds are they’re gonna be productive human beings that like you.
Yeah.
Cathy: That’s my 2 cents. Yeah. It’s neurologically sound for them to have those things.
Todd: Yep. No doubt. Parting thoughts? Anybody? I. [01:17:00] Which is a geyser. Well,
Cathy: I love the work that all three of you guys do. I really appreciate it. I honor all three of you as human beings, apart from Men Living. I love all of you as human beings.
And then when you come together and you do good work, it’s really inspiring. So thank you. Thank you.
Todd: Thank you guys for joining.
Shaun: I, yeah, I just wanna say, I mean, we were planning to do this soon after the article came out in Match, and we couldn’t six months we couldn’t get together maybe four months later.
I was very excited that we were gonna do this. Well, so I’m glad
Chris: we, I’m glad. Is this where we announced that we’re gonna do this every other week? Yeah. That we’re all partnered up now.
Todd: Well, let’s be clear. The reason it took us as long as it did is ’cause of Chris. Yeah. No doubt. Hopefully, no doubt. We’ve been ready.
It’s no doubt it’s Lozier’s fault. It’s totally Lozier’s fault. There’s no doubt about it. He’s, he is .Like, no, I gotta go do stuff. What a
Chris: jerk to Todd Rhode said, Hey, anyone up for pickleball after the podcast? Whatcha talking about? Does that [01:18:00] work? Yeah. Seriously.
Todd: Pickleball is work, man. All right, so calls to action.
Subscribe to, if you’ve come this far, if you’re listening to, if you’ve come this far, subscribe to Zen Parenting. Wait,
Cathy: tell them why you named it that. Oh yeah. That’s a good pop culture thing.
Shaun: You did it.
Chris: You did it. Yeah. Yeah, it’s named after a line in one of my favorite movies, Shashank Redemption.
So at the end, Red’s reading the letter that Andy Dufrene left him on his release from jail, and he says, if you’ve come this far, maybe you’re willing to come a little further. Which kind of encapsulates kind of what we’re trying to do here.
Shaun: Yeah. So if people come to on the show, While you’re here, you might as well talk about what we’re ever gonna
Todd: ask you.
Did you guys, because we’re gonna go deep, my guess is you have not listened to the Pop Culturing that Cathy and I did on Shaw Shank. But one thing I learned in researching that movie was the movie was supposed to end with red on the bus.
Chris: I did listen to that episode.
Todd: Yeah. Thank gosh they did.
Thank God it didn’t, they did test audiences and [01:19:00] said, you gotta give us more. And then they filmed the part of red walking on the beach. Oh.
Shaun: That’s the other thing that’s gotta be said, goose, since we’re here, your knowledge of pop culture is freakish almost. I mean, it’s like, What?
Yeah.
Chris: Right. It’s like a sickness, right?
Cathy: It’s an illness. No, we have to tell you guys this is kind of funny. Todd and I had a date Saturday night. What do we do on a date? We do eighties trivia. Yeah. So Todd was throwing all these trivia questions and then he gave me, you know, again, I know it’s not pc, but it was the Cosby Show. You know, who are the Huxtable children in order of their age.
So I’m like, rattling ’em off. Oh my God. And he’s like, no. Yeah. And I’m like, what do you mean no? Yeah. And he’s like, no, it’s not right. The card doesn’t say that. The card was wrong. Boom. Yeah.
Todd: Come on. The card was wrong. Boom. And it wasn’t just wrong once, like it got like one of the five in the correct order.
Cathy: They, and they had the right names, but none of them were in the right order. I’m like, I know this for fact. And then there was another one they had, you add things like, you know how many ghost busters plus you know how many whatever. And the an if you add them [01:20:00] together, it was like eight and they had 11.
Todd: Yeah. It was like six plus three equals 11.
Cathy: Like, it literally said six plus three equals 11. We’re like, what is happening when you start to know better than the cart? We kept saying the answer is moves. Yes. Have you guys seen that Seinfeld?
Todd: No. I, these clearly we got nothing.
Cathy: Nothing. The answer isms. All right.
So that’s the last thing I wanted to say. I love that those conversations,
Todd: We gotta, we just gotta play that.
Cathy: Okay. Okay.
Todd: A bubble boy. So this is a Seinfeld where George and what’s George’s girlfriend’s name? Susan. Susan. Susan is playing trivia pursuit with this kid who lives in a bubble.
Cathy: Yeah, the they, it’s called the Bubble Boy episode. It’s for the game. How you doing over there? Not too good.
Shaun: All right.
Todd: Bubble boy. It’s just blame. Who invaded Spain in the eighth century? That’s a joke. The Moors. [01:21:00] Oh no. I’m so sorry. It’s the Moops. The correct answer is the
Cathy: Moops mos. Let see that.
Todd: That’s not mos, you jerk.
Cathy: It’s mors. It’s a myth print.
Todd: I’m sorry. The conscious moose, we were pulling a little bit.
Cathy: The answer is moose.
Todd: All right, let me do the outro music so we can officially close this thing. All right guys, keep trucking. Thanks for joining us. See you next time on Zen Parenting.
