ZPR#720 – Shifting Life Patterns Full Episode Transcript – DOWNLOAD
Todd: We go. My name’s Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen at Parenting Radio. This is podcast number 720. Why listen to Zen Parenting Radio? Because you’ll feel outstanding. And always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s wellbeing is a parent’s self-understanding.
On today’s show, we’re gonna share a few hot takes. We’re gonna talk about Cathy’s Zen Parenting Moment, which talks about letting go of the past and remembering the past. But no, it’s about life patterns. That’s what I meant. Life patterns. Life patterns is what I meant. I’m like, it has a good title. Yes. And, but first I just wanna play this even though nobody’s gonna recognize it other than you.
You ready sweetie? I’m ready. I’m ready.
[00:01:00] What’s the tune they like the best? What’s the tune they like the best? When the J becomes ulu, what’s the number one request? 720. The when the band begins to play, I have a hard time turning it off. This is a song called 720 in the books by a guy named Jan Avit. Not enough male. Jans out there.
And I think it was world War II Time. I don’t even know what forties. Forties. And the reason I’m playing is ’cause this is podcast number 720 in the books. We, when we’re done recording, 720 is gonna be in the books. Nice. And I stumbled across the song. With my daughter Skyler, and we’re like, it’s kind of a catchy little forties little Diddy.
It sure is. And I have since annoyed my entire family by playing it and overplaying it whenever it’s hard for me to be in a [00:02:00] bad mood when 720 of the books is going
Cathy: on. There’s a part of the song where he says, be like a kangaroo. Yeah, that’s not a lot of songs telling us to be like a kangaroo.
No,
Todd: there’s not. There should be more. Or the
Cathy: fish is in the
Todd: Brooks or the fishes in the Brooks. Everybody’s jumping to 720 in the books. The books. It’s just an outstanding song.
Cathy: Well, and the weird thing is if you look it up on YouTube, if it’s 720 in the book, It’s one thing, but if it’s 720 in
Todd: the books, yeah, it’s another thing.
720 in the books has lyrics. 720 in the book. It’s just instrumental. Isn’t that weird? It is weird. So anyways, I’m going to pivot, pivot over to Cathy’s Zen Parenting Moment. But first I gotta play the opening line to that and it’s this[00:03:00]
Cathy: a different version.
Maybe a live version.
Todd: I don’t know. So the next line is what? You
Cathy: older.
Todd: Ala
Cathy: lot of goodness came from the breakup of Stevie and Lindsay.
Todd: And this song is one of those good things. What I
Cathy: mean is like, I feel like they have so many deep songs and they were really just about each other. But we’ve like taken these songs and they’ve become like, Just such a big part of our lives.
Like Landslide, the Chicks did Landslide, I, Billy Corgan, did Landslide, like so many people have done redone that song. Quite
Todd: [00:04:00] influential. And I feel like we could do, there’s so many parts of that song that I don’t, I mean, I think I know what it’s about, but I don’t know what it’s all about. Well,
Cathy: like I said, when it was written, it was about Stevie and Lindsay breaking up.
Know? Got it.
Todd: But time, time makes you bolder. Even children get older. What’s the heck that do with Stevie and Lindsay, they’re both grownups.
Cathy: Well, when they got together, they were very young. Oh, yep. All and so that’s what I mean is I think every song, the reason that artists, I think, typically don’t like to talk about all the, every intention behind their song is they like people to take it for themselves and make it meaningful.
And if you basically tell someone, this is what it’s about. Here’s all the details. It can be harder to make it applicable to your own life. Sure. Makes sense. I think, you know, directors with their movies talk about that too. How there’ll be a, an ending that’s everyone’s trying to decipher and the director’s like, I’m not gonna tell you what I thought.
Because whatever you think is what it is.
Todd: [00:05:00] So is there any, so I thought of using your Zen Parenting moment as a vehicle of discussion, at least for the first part of this podcast. You have a line in there that says,
Cathy: well, before you get to that, can I just explain life patterns? What I meant, I, and I don’t even know, it’s such a general way to talk about it, but I was just thinking about how we literally just do what we know.
So unless you’re like really hyper conscious every minute we’re kind of just moving through life on autopilot, you know, it’s like, this is what I do in the morning. This is what people do, this is what I eat, this is what I say, and. Those things are patterns that we’ve developed in our life. You know, starting in childhood and things that became normalized, that were normalized in culture, things that are a result of our trauma, things that are a result of our positive experiences.
And we just kind of developed this way of being in the world where we’re like, this is how [00:06:00] you do it. And the, you know, the whole idea of any kind of self-awareness or mindfulness or just, you know, the ability to have some kind of growth in your life is the ability to look at your patterns and what is helpful to us, what are the patterns that have really helped us get through life?
And then what are the patterns that maybe initially helped us get through life? ’cause we obviously developed the pattern for a reason, but now is not helpful. And I think that I. What I was really talking about is not only focusing on us, questioning our patterns, but in the second paragraph I talk about how just because you are questioning your patterns doesn’t mean everybody in your life is questioning your patterns.
Wouldn’t that be
Todd: easier if other people question their patterns at the exact same time we’re questioning our patterns. Yes.
Cathy: And sometimes when I’m in the process of questioning patterns, ’cause we do this our whole life, right? It’s not like you one time [00:07:00] look at your life and say, oh, I’m gonna question these patterns and I’m never gonna do this again.
There’s like a, there’s all sorts of different patterns and some of them are layered and you know, they’re multidimensional. So we continue to do this our whole life, but, Sometimes I have been so sure of like, how can someone see things this way? ’cause I’m doing all this work and how do they not understand and they don’t.
Like I’m really, what I’m doing is I’m messing up the dance with someone like where we have developed a dance, you would be someone you know, a good friend or you or my children or someone in the workplace and I’m realizing that my patterns don’t work anymore. So I’m showing up differently.
And the other person’s like, wait a second. We already have this dance that we do.
Why are you changing?
Todd: That’s a danger. On any long weekends, I’m guessing this happens whenever you’ve been on like retreat weekends with women. When I, we do a whole piece at the end of a men living weekend saying, listen, you’re gonna go home.
With different [00:08:00] awarenesses, with different emotional vulnerabilities. And you’re going to sometimes guys assume that either something awful will happened. Like they’ll try to fix their partner and help them understand how enlightened they have now become. They have now become, which is just a terrible idea.
Or you’re, you just, they choose to interact differently as a result. And the person that left for the weekend was one person. Now you’re coming back with these different tools or different energy, and it really throws the partner off. So that’s a very tricky thing, and that’s a, just a very obvious example of when that can happen.
Well,
Cathy: and you know, in those kind of situations where you have you know, you go away for a weekend and you learn things and you have ahas. I consider that an intellectual awareness that you had. Like maybe you had a deep body, like a somatic response. Like, wow, this is something I know, or now I’m feeling more rejuvenated or someone gave me [00:09:00] information that I’ve been, you know, trying to access forever.
It’s, it, I’m not saying it’s only in the mind, you know, you may be having a body experience, but. You haven’t practiced this new understanding in the real world? Correct. What I mean is that there is this research and it’s got a title and I can’t think of it. You may be able to find it, but it’s basically that the less you know about something, the more you talk about how much you know about it.
Interesting. You know, someone will
Todd: just enough to be dangerous, that type of thing.
Cathy: Well, people tend to like to teach
Todd: things. I’m raising my hand,
Cathy: by the way, Uhhuh, that they don’t fully understand or yet embody. Another example
Todd: would be like you read a book, a good Self-help book, and you think of all the other people that need to hear this.
Instead of me taking ownership over what I’m learning in this book and putting it into practice without telling anybody how self-aware I am as a result of reading
Cathy: this book, and actually it literally is research Todd. Like I’ve heard Adam Grant talk about it. I’ve heard it’s this, basically it’s somebody who [00:10:00] reads one article about something.
Thinks they know more than the person who has studied it their whole lives. And that’s because the more you study something, the more layered and the more complex and the more paradoxical it becomes. Because when you really dive into something, you realize that there are no simple answers. But somebody who reads an article tends to think there’s simple answers.
Because they’re basically going off of whatever the writer of that article said. You know, I’m seeing that a lot in Congress right now. You know, people who are like, well, I read this thing and so you’re this and you’re, and it’s like you don’t have the full scope of what this thing is. So you’re, so I consider that very similar to people who go to a conference or who read a book and they have new information, which is cool.
Like, there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s actually great. But what you have to do is then go out in life and try and practice it. It doesn’t mean you can’t share it. I mean, It’s like, you know, when I have an aha, I love to share it with you, but I don’t find myself to be [00:11:00] now the expert on this topic.
Sure. Like, and I also think if I’m thinking about everybody else who needs to read this book, then I’m probably the one who needs it the most. Oh. So it’s a, so basically when we are learning something, If we then look down on other people or we’re disparaging or disregarding of other people who aren’t doing the exact same work we are, then we’ve already missed the point of the
Todd: work.
Well, and it’s subtle and nuanced, like in relationship. I, this comes up a lot. Like, I think we’ve even done a podcast called How do I get My partner to dot. And I can under empathize with the people or like, no, I’m trying. At least I’m trying. So how do I get him to try? How do get her to try?
So it’s not a judgment, it’s just a recognition that sometimes this happens when we’re like no, I’m trying this new trick, or I’m trying to do this different version of myself. But how am I supposed to do that if he or she’s not going to meet me halfway?
Cathy: Well, and it’s interesting because, you [00:12:00] know, you and I have seen the full spectrum.
We’ve seen people who have come home with new ideas and their partners really open to it. And then we’ve seen people who have come home with ideas and. They’re trying to role model a new way and their partner’s kind of annoyed, but of like, and then we’ve seen the other extreme war people are like trying things that are new at home and the partner’s so annoyed and is like, stop it and quit telling me who to be.
And so there’s so many different scenarios in here, but I think that the what we have to remember is that the whole practice of learning something is not about changing other people. It’s about how we’re responding in those real time situations. And I’m speaking so generally, but like for example, if you just spent, if you just read a book about empathy or you just realize something about the way you think or that you know, your neurobiology or whatever, when you are in a conversation with someone, that’s not the time to teach them about neurobiology use what you learned about empathy and neurobiology in that conversation.
[00:13:00] How will you relate to this experience differently? And through that, This person that you’re talking to may be interested in what you’re doing and may ask you questions and they may even say, Hey, that felt different, or that conversation we didn’t get so heated. What changed? And you can share, but the whole idea of learning something new is for you to practice it.
Todd: Not for you to teach it, to practice it.
Cathy: And let me be clear, you could do that all day long and you may be with a partner or a friend or someone who will ne you’ll actually realize this is never gonna work. Like you practicing it doesn’t determine success all the time. It just gives you a greater awareness and sometimes gives you more
Todd: clarity.
And if you’re doing it to change the other person, you’re probably not doing it for
Cathy: the right reasons. Exactly. I mean, and you know, I get it. I sometimes, I mean, you know, Todd, we’ve been together so long now, but there have definitely been things I’ve learned where I’ve been like, I can’t wait to teach this to Todd so he can change this behavior or whatever.
But.
Todd: The [00:14:00] trick is to catch yourself. It’s normal for us to want to have that thought. The trick is, can we catch ourselves being, oh, actually maybe this isn’t about teaching Todd, but maybe it’s me integrating this a little bit more before I even bring it up
Cathy: to Todd. I actually it to pull this all together, one of my life patterns is learning something and then wanting to teach it.
And I and I still am like that. I learned something new, but I really don’t read one article. I’m the things that doesn’t mean I’m the best teacher of it. It just means that you’re not taking shortcuts. I’m not taking shortcuts around, like I’m, if I’m gonna venture into something, I’m gonna listen to every podcast about it.
I’m gonna listen to everybody who’s talking about it, both sides of the story. And then I do like to teach it. But then sometimes I meet people who’ve experienced it in a different way. And I’m like, okay, scratch everything that I’ve learned. ’cause now I have to open up this new. You know, awareness around it and what
Todd: it means.
And when I’m on my, when I’m on my game, ’cause there’s, you know, I would be lying if I didn’t say that. There’s, you know, as human beings, we tend to judge and there’s like, let’s say I meet [00:15:00] a 28 year old guy who’s just about to get married. Like, there’s this part of me that’s like, okay, this dude has a lot to learn, A lot to learn.
Yep. I’ve had three kids, I’ve been married, and I think when I’m on my game, I can be in conver, be in conversation with this guy and say, what can I learn from this kid? And that’s rare. Like, honestly, I’m like, no, I know more than this kid. I’ve been through it more, even like, even know, not, I’m not in therapy right now, but if and when I find my next therapist, I wanna make sure that he or she is older than me.
It’s just this weird. Feeling I get, like, it’s hard for me to learn somebody, learn from somebody who’s been on this planet less than me. And it’s an unfair criticism, but it’s just my honest assessment of how I would best learn.
Cathy: And I would, and it’s, you know, I’m gonna push back on this, but you know, that I have felt similarly with people I’ve worked with, especially as a therapist myself.
I’ve always wanted someone [00:16:00] older than me and that’s just been a thing. But I also have realized that a lot of my teachers right now are much younger than me. And that’s like authors that I listen to and does it like, it’s interesting because it just all depends on what we’re talking about. Like when I am, you know, reading new parenting books and these parents have very young kids a lot of the things they talk about, if it’s in terms of self-care or whatever, they’re not wrong.
There’s nothing wrong with what they’re saying, but there’s a lot that they don’t understand yet about having older kids, about going through experiences about just like a 20 year old can’t understand what it’s like to be a 50 year old. You haven’t gone through these things. So it’s not about that someone’s right and someone’s wrong.
I mean, I was writing parenting books when I was 30, 35, and I’m sure people the age that I’m now, I’m 50, I’m gonna be 52 this week. Hey sweetie. That they were like, you know, just, there’s so much more, you know, there’s so much more. So it’s just about where you are in your life. If, but there are, like, I think about a lot of [00:17:00] the teachers like that, a lot of the podcasters, we listen to Todd and they’re younger
Todd: than us.
What I hear that, and I guess what, for me, and I think you and I are similar in this, I value experience. Over, I don’t know, over anything else. The newest framework. The newest framework, like if you’ve been through this, There’s plenty of 15 year olds that have been through more than I have.
Sure. Or different things. Different things. Or, or more traumatic things. Sure. Somebody’s a trauma survivor. Like I’ve never been physically traumatized or anything like that. There’s young, much younger people that have experienced a lot more than I have that I, and then you know, those people that come out clean on the other side, like, okay, I can listen to that person, like somebody who’s changed this trauma and transformed it from this thing that happened to them, and instead using it to teach others to help cope.
Like I [00:18:00] can learn from that person, but it’s because they’ve gone through it as opposed to through something as opposed to reading somebody else’s words. And then coming up with your own words theories as a result of reading somebody else’s words. And so anyways,
Cathy: yeah, and that’s the thing is that I think.
You know, to write about something or to have a perspective on something. You don’t have to have a lot of awful things happen to you. No, it’s really not like that. But I think I’m gonna go back to what we were talking about with life patterns. Are you someone that writes about things because you’ve read other people’s work and you’re like, yeah, this is cool and I’m gonna like regurgitate all these things?
Or have you put things into practice in your life and you have, I kind of, you know, I always talk about it is it’s, I can, you can tell if someone’s run something through their own body. Because the way they write about it or talk about it is from a very personal perspective. There’s like a, I tried this and then here’s kind of what happened or what I realized is when I do this is what [00:19:00] happened.
Versus when you don’t feel calm, just take some breaths. It’s like, okay, but what is that like for you? And everybody kind of has a different response to that. And it doesn’t mean we have to relate to everybody’s experience. It just means, I can tell when people are pushing and we were just talking about frameworks before.
Pushing frameworks versus sharing a perspective because they’ve run something through their own body. Or in their own life. And sometimes that’s traumatic things. Sometimes that’s, here’s how I dealt with these awful things. And sometimes it’s just everyday experiences of like, here’s how I see the world.
Todd: So we’re gonna get that opportunity to do that in one second. And we’re gonna continue the conversation, but first I just wanna mention Team Zen. I wanna say hi to our newest Team Zen member Carol from Forest Park. Team Zen. It’s an app on your phone where everything is organized in one place.
It’s 25 bucks a month. So some of the many things you have access to is Cathy’s Women’s Circle. We send out [00:20:00] swag. We have these micro communities. We’ve done 170 Zen Talks,
Cathy: and a Zen talk is a live talk with us on Zoom and then we post it. It comes out as a podcast to everybody for Team Zen. Like Todd said, the app just has everything we do in one place plus the community.
Todd: And the other invitation is Cathy has an amazing book called Zen Parenting. And in the show notes of this link, and then this is specifically to anybody who’s read Cathy’s book, please give it a review. Oh, and there is a hyperlink in the show notes at the very top of this podcast. Just click on that and give your Amazon review. ‘Cause that helps more people find Cathy’s book.
Cathy: It does. I just got a re I just got an interesting review a couple weeks ago. Really. I think it wasn’t like a five star review. They, it, it was just interesting. I five stars are very helpful. Like I kind of feel like if you don’t l if you don’t, if you don’t wanna give a five star view, then just don’t.
Todd: Was it from don’t do it from Anton, sweetie.
I
Cathy: think so. You want me to read it or no? No. No, I don’t. I just,
Todd: she gave you three out of [00:21:00] five.
Cathy: The, so it’s like sometimes they’re very interesting and so part it, it’s kind of sucks because there’s this, let me just tell the truth about it. There’s this marketing component that I do like people’s feedback but I would rather you send me an email about that.
Because the, you know, I have to play in this world of like, so if you see
Todd: book you, if you wanna see something critical, email me, email Cathy at Zen parenting radio.com. If you love the book, go ahead and do it in Amazon already.
Cathy: Yeah’s kind of what I was saying and I wish there, it wasn’t like that everybody, I wish there was more of a, you know, component of having a little more freedom.
But it’s such a, it’s just like, podcasts. It’s the same thing. These reviews and everything, they kind of hold us hostage, don’t they?
Todd: They do. Sadly, I’m not. Well, thankfully I’m not in that world, but you are. So I’m kind of editing through you. So, so here’s the opportunity for you and I to share.
So we’ve been talking about life experiences, life patterns, and when I first read yours and parenting moment I’m gonna share one thing that I’ve kind of let go of in my life. I just [00:22:00] wanna read what you wrote in that as adults we take on responsibility of recognizing these patterns and deciding what stays and what goes.
It’s all about honoring the memories and traditions that mean something to us, while also letting go of what no longer works. So here’s the first thing I thought of when I read that. I have these wonderful college friends, and it’s crazy to think that I’ve been out of college for almost 30 years, but it’s the truth.
And I don’t know, about 10 years ago most of my twenties and thirties. Post-college, we’re getting together with these guys a lot and going out and going on trips with them. And I realized that I ended up being really exhausted at the end of these trips because all we did was gamble and drink and is blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I decided at one point to let go of that version of myself com. Not completely, but for the most part, what I mean by that is I still see these friends [00:23:00] from all over the country about once a year. And that’s what I’ve kind of decided. And, you know, if they are listening, which they probably don’t ’cause they’re really not into this version of Todd but if they’re listening, I love each one of these men, but I only wanna give them one weekend a year to. to invest in the relationship as they want it. ’cause they wanna keep playing as if we’re 22 years old.
Cathy: Well, and that’s what I was gonna say. It’s really not about that. No. What it’s about is you are like, I can do this version about this much. And so it’s not about, if you know, they’re only gonna get this much of me.
It’s just like this version of going out. I can do it this much because I have to give so much energy to my wife and to my children and to my extended family and to my work. And so I can only do this
Todd: much. Well, and it’s not just about alcohol, it’s also, it’s followed with once again, I love these guys, but the conversations aren’t that deep.
It’s more sports [00:24:00] and talking about how drunk we used to get and it’s, that’s great. I’m gonna do it once a year. And then the rest of the weekends of my year, I’m gonna spend doing other things. And I still communicate with these guys. It’s just, and I think there’s a lot of guys that are listening to me say this can, I think they can relate to it because they, a lot of these weekends, like, let’s just jump in a time machine and pretend it’s 1994 again.
And once a year you got me. But other than that, I’m out. And they may feel similarly. You know, so that’s one thing that I’m sharing that I have kind of let go of that version of me that would show up constantly. And org I used to organize all the weekends. Like I let them organize it now.
Like, if you guys wanna do it, you know, email me, but I’m not gonna initiate it. So that’s another
Cathy: thing I So that’s like a life pattern that’s shifted for you. You know, I kind of think about it in terms of like, we’re talking about history. A lot of that is from it definitely our friendships, but also our family of origin.
You know, I’ve [00:25:00] said on this show, there’s a lot of things that I have let go of you know, simple things like, you know, that things that my dad told me that were the best things to do, and he wasn’t wrong. You know, buy a white car, it makes the most sense. And I did that my whole life. And then Todd is like, do you really have to do that?
And I haven’t bought one since. But it doesn’t mean that he was wrong. I just shifted a pattern. I’m like, I, or you know, my mom used to say things like you know, the either clear nail polish or red nail polish. And that’s the only things that are good. And I now do blue and I do green and I do all these things and it’s not about, It’s not to spite anybody, it’s just questioning, does this pattern work for me?
And I’m giving very benign things, by the way, these are not like big life changes, but they’re it’s these little things that show up when you know, sometimes we have ingrained belief systems that we’ve never questioned. And a lot of times we go out in the world and we’ll [00:26:00] say, well, this is what you have to do with kids.
Or this is, you know, you can’t wear white because it’s only this day, it’s this, you know, it’s not summer yet. You can’t do that. Or, you know, you can’t talk about religion, you can’t talk about money, you can’t. And it’s like, is that true or is that part of your life pattern? And maybe you will investigate it and decide that it is still a pattern you wanna keep, because you always have permission to do that.
But a lot of times we don’t even question, we just think it is. And. I think it’s our life. I think for the, you know, I get kind of deep about this for the joy of your own life. ’cause you came into the world into the family that you’re in or into the, you know, this country that you’re in, your state, your city, and you came in and learned a lot of things, right?
And that’s was part of your beginning. But as we continue to evolve through each decade, we have so many more opportunities to learn so much more about ourselves. Like, do I really wanna do [00:27:00] this? Like, and even things that we, you know, there’s so many things that before I would’ve been like, oh, that’s just not something I do.
Where it’s like, well, why not? Like, where did and I know where I learned it wasn’t something I was supposed to do as part of my culture or part of my high school or whatever, but now I have permission to question that. You know, now I’m a grownup adult. You know, it’s the fun of being our age as we get to say, what do I wanna do?
And do I believe that? And do you know, can I. Can I do, can I be myself in whatever fullness that means? And can I know that I can change that too? You’re not, then I, there’s no endings to this.
Todd: Well, and I thought of a different pattern of mine that I’ve kinda like go, but it’s been decades probably since I’ve done this.
Or maybe you’d be like, no, tide, you still do it. I used to like call my siblings to remind them to call my dad or my mom or my grandma on their birthday. I would rescue them quite often from, and. [00:28:00] I’m sure it was through dialogue with you. Like, why are you doing all this? Like, just let them fail.
And that’s, and once again, that’s not a super huge, impactful example, but when you get used to doing something, it’s hard to break habits. And I used to, ever since I was a little kid, I was 10 years old, I’d be like, oh, make sure you get mom a birth, a Mother’s Day gift or something like that. And even like with with our kids, you know, on Mother’s Day, I don’t say, Hey, get something for mom.
Like, it’s up to them to get something for mom. So anyways.
Cathy: And you know, you just said that that when you were doing that with your siblings that I was like, let them fail. That’s actually not what I said at all. What I said is, don’t be annoying to them. Like, why would you wanna have that relationship with them?
Where you are dictating to them what they should do. If they do fail, whatever that means. I didn’t even give them a chance to fail. That’s what I mean. Like, I was not about like, it wasn’t like, well, you’re the good one and let them fail. It was more like you are creating a [00:29:00] relationship with your siblings.
That is not great. Because, Why do you think it’s your job to, to tell them what to do? Allow them to have the experience and if they happen to drop the ball, that’s their experience. That has nothing to do with you, but I think that’s a great life pattern to discuss because I think you found in your childhood that you needed to cover all those bases to keep everyone safe.
Yes. That you were like, if someone drops the ball on this, we’re gonna have disharmony in our family. So I need to make sure everybody stays on task or else I’m gonna have disharmony. Now you’re an adult and if there is disharmony, you can separate from it. You know? And so a lot of times,
Todd: or use the disharmony as a opportunity to reconnect even stronger.
Cathy: So, yeah, it’s, and I think that’s kind of the, you know, and this is in friendships too. Like one thing I’ve really learned in my adult friendships is I was very conflict diverse growing up because I learned to be conflict diverse. And I also found that [00:30:00] being, I gotta be honest, being conflict diverse really served me in high school and in middle school.
Especially in middle school. Like I learned how to be a chameleon and negotiate conversations and to not ever be the villain and to always be on everyone’s side. And it helped, right? It helped. What I found though, getting older is that being a chameleon means you’re nowhere. Means I had no, I was nobody.
I was everybody. There’s a great line about in Cardigan by Taylor Swift, like a friend to all, as a friend to none. Like if you, if you are doing everything, making sure everybody feels good, then you have no place, you have no grounding. And so what I had to learn is when I was first kind of sorting through this in my thirties and forties, is it didn’t mean I did it wrong when I was younger.
I did it ’cause it worked. And then as I got older, not having any conflict or never having an opinion made me [00:31:00] feel less about myself. So I had to question that pattern. And now I’m very when I say I’m very good at conflict, I’m not afraid of it. I’m not afraid of saying to someone, you hurt my feelings.
I’m not afraid of saying to someone, I don’t agree with you. And I’m not afraid of saying to someone, you know, you drop the ball and. Vice versa. I’m not afraid to say I dropped the ball.
Todd: How about a little tea Swizzle, sweetie.
Cathy: Again, did she play
Todd: this
Cathy: at
Todd: the concert? She
Cathy: sure did. This is part of the The trilogy. This is Betty James and August. That’s
Todd: Good old August. I don’t pretend
Cathy: to understand August. So that is Betty’s song. About James cheating on [00:32:00] her with August. There you go. And then, so anyway,
Todd: but you guys didn’t know you’re gonna get some T swizzle lyrics.
Cathy: Interpretation, but the best of the three. Oh gosh. That’s hard. Cardigan is my least favorite of a three. My favorite, I think between Betty and August. You like Betty right? Do you know these songs? I
Todd: have heard ’em a million times, but I wouldn’t be able to hum any of the three without your help.
Cathy: Well, I think you would like Betty, the song Betty. It’s called Betty, but it’s by James. I’m probably confusing everybody. Everybody’s like, whatcha talking about? Whatcha talking about? It’s on Taylor’s album, folklore. She decided to, instead of write about her own life, she created fictional characters and wrote about their lives.
So there’s this, these three songs that she wrote. One is called Betty, one is called August. One is called Cardigan
Fuck Myself, swearing the Guard in the Garden Trust. I you, it was just a summer thing. I’m only 17. I dunno anything, [00:33:00] but I know I famous you. So this song is James’s song. He cheated on Betty. He feels awful about it. Bummer. And he’s trying to apologize and he’s, as you hear, he’s only 17 years old and he, you know, he, what’s the third song?
It’s called August and it’s beautiful. It’s probably the most beautiful one. And who’s that? Well, she never says that her name is August. It possibly is Augustine. Like she’s playing with it because she’s talking about the month of August, but I think her fans just call her August or August
ing. But I can see
a moment in
that’s, it’s a really beautiful one and it, and we’ve obviously been to her concert twice this summer and that is a [00:34:00] really beautiful, she’s wearing the really flowy outfit. It’s just really a beautiful song. But anyway, I. August is the girl, if we’re gonna call her that. She’s the one who is with James, The girl that, that cheats with James.
You know, and she, the whole song August is about how she’s young too, and she was just fine with being in the moment with him. She wanted to be with him, but she’s like, she knew his heart was somewhere else, but she was just hoping that they could be together. And so it’s just a young story.
Todd: Are you ready to pivot? Yes. Let’s, and one to another. I’m about to play another song that’s gonna intro why we’re doing this.
Sweetie, why am I playing Express yourself? That’s Madonna. And you [00:35:00] have a hot take about Madonna. What are we doing on Sunday night?
Cathy: Okay, so I have a few hot takes about Madonna. I’m gonna get really into this. So my children obviously are, you know, Taylor Swift is their girl. She’s been their girl their whole lives.
That’s fine. They also like me, love Lady Gaga. I’m a huge Lady Gaga fan. Seen her in concert three times. My whole family loves her and she’s so super talented. The thing that I’ve always said to my girls though, is me being an eighties kid, I grew up with Madonna, and without Madonna there would be none of these people.
Now, maybe there’d be a different rendition and you know, who knows how it could have been. But Madonna broke all the ceilings, you know, she was the one who started talking about sexuality, religion. She was supportive of the L G B T Q community. She was an outspoken woman. She was, she. She pushed all the boundaries.
So Madonna is another one. I mean, along with Taylor and Lady Gaga, I’m not giving anybody up here, but Madonna is [00:36:00] very important to me because she’s a big part of my history. So on my birthday this, so the thing that Todd and I do is when we on our birthday, we get to like, choose what we’re gonna do as a family.
And Todd tends to like to play games and I tend to like to choose a movie when my girls were little or younger. Todd and I could like bring in all these eighties movies and they’d be into it. And now they’re just not tougher sell nowadays. So now I have to use my birthday. So on my birthday, we are gonna watch Truth or Dare Madonna’s documentary, which I wanna start by saying now we’re so used to reality TV and we’re so used to documentaries about artists
Todd: revealing unfiltered documentaries,
Cathy: right?
Like this is their real life, this is behind the scenes. Nobody was doing that. Madonna was the first person who did that. Now everybody was protecting their image. They were. And now you can say, well, the real world had begun. It hadn’t actually, yet, the real world hadn’t begun. Like maybe there was something reality based, and you can totally fact check me on this.
Sweetie, what do
Todd: the 30 year old parents think right now about they, they [00:37:00] may not even know what the real world is.
Cathy: I know. Well, it, the real world was a reality show that was on M T V and there was many iterations of it in different cities. Just wanna make sure. And it was just supposed to be kind of like unfiltered, but really it became everyone in a hot tub having sex.
Like it, it all, it started one way and became something else. You just pivoted over to the Bachelor. And that’s basically what happened. The Bachelor was supposed to be, you know, it was more typical looking people. And now everybody’s, but not the new bachelor and The new bachelor’s gonna be 72.
Everybody That’s crazy. The senior bachelor. Anyway, going back to Madonna. She’s very important to me for all those things. You know, just like Pat Benatar and the Gogos and all those women are, but the thing about Madonna, where she gets a lot of crap is that she’s not necessarily the nicest person in the world.
And, and people say that people that have worked with her, I have obviously never met her. I’ve seen her in concert, but I’ve never like met Madonna, but people have been like she’s pretty tough and she’s not [00:38:00] very kind and she’s, you know, tough to work with, tough to work with. Where the stories we hear about Taylor and Lady Gaga, they’re all just really super kind people.
And in a way I’m very protective of her about that. I said to Todd, the car, she’s kind like the Hillary Clinton of her time. You know, like people don’t like Hillary Clinton because she busted through all these glass ceilings. And everyone’s like, but she’s this way and she’s not a nice person. And she wore power suits and why’d she have to do that?
And why couldn’t she be more feminine? And why couldn’t she be more nice and why couldn’t she do it differently? And how. Like,
Todd: if you would’ve been nice, we wouldn’t be talking about
Cathy: Madonna. Absolutely. Like she had to be and interact with people in a way to do what she did. And, and even when I say she’s not nice, I mean, she’s a mother of five children, I think now she has built a school in Malawi.
Like she has she, it’s not that she isn’t a generous person, it’s just that people talk about, she’s just not the friendliest, you know? And I know people are making [00:39:00] fun of her plastic surgery and the way she looks now, and I’m always just a little, I I tense up a little when people rip on her, because while I understand, I also think we wouldn’t be where we are.
I know we wouldn’t be where we are without her. And so why I wanna show my girls that. Movie is, first of all, because it was a new experience. Like we were not seeing people behind the scenes. And I want them to see what she was like on stage, because I don’t think they have an appreciation of Madonna at her height.
I think they know material girl, and I think they know like a ver or like a prayer and I think they, they know that their mom appreciates her. ’cause I talk about her a lot, but I want them to see who this person was and how influential she was. I just said to Skyler last night, we were talking about this last night, and she was, and Skyler loves theater, so she started singing Don’t Cry for Me, Argentina.
And I said, you know, Madonna played Avita in the [00:40:00] movie. She’s like, no way. I’m like, and she won a Golden Globe. Like she had to learn how to sing in a different way to play a vita very kind of Lady Gaga esque. Lady Gaga has never had to learn how to sing. She’s always been amazing. But Madonna had to kind of transform and like, you know, learn how to sing in a different way.
’cause she actually, when she was a per a performer, she actually started as a dancer and then incorporated singing. She was at the clubs. It was a, she has a totally different, you know, beginning story and she had to really kinda learn how to be a musician. So anyway, I just, my hot take was just that she’s kind of like Hillary Clinton.
Everybody loves to hate her, but we wouldn’t be where we are without her.
Todd: Boom. So my hot take is a little bit less maybe impactful,
Cathy: More impactful than Madonna.
Todd: Well, and it’s gonna be shorter. I just have to say that the The [00:41:00] Angel’s Major League baseball player. Tani is going to be the best player ever to play the game of Major League baseball.
That’s your hot take. That’s my hot take. And it’s really not that hot of a take ’cause it seems like it’s more and more obvious. He is on pace to be a I don’t know how many home runs right now. He is on pace to do, but he, for those of you guys who don’t know he plays both. He’s a wonderful hitter and he’s one of the best pitchers in the major leagues.
So like we haven’t seen anything like this from Babe Ruth and I just feel like most of the people What
Cathy: do you mean by that? We haven’t seen anyone like this since. Babe Ruth. Since Babe.
Todd: Babe Ruth. Got it. I don’t know what I just said, so I just think, I’m just so, lucky to be able to say that I’m around when this young man, he is 28 years old right now.
I thought he was younger, but he’s 28. It’s. If you know nothing [00:42:00] about baseball, my guess is you’ll probably be like, who’s this guy again? Pay attention because we are in the midst of seeing something historical because he is one of the best pitchers in the league and he is one of the best hitters in the league.
And we’ve never, I’ve been looking at baseball since I was a little kid since the 1970s, and nobody’s come anything close to this. And anybody who is a sports fan knows all about this. But for those of you who pay no attention just, just keep an eye on the Angels Games. While he might not be in the Angel, angels might long, much longer, he, they might trade him because he’s gonna warrant a contract of $600 million or so.
So anyways, I just wanted to give a shout out to this. I think he’s from Ja Japan, this Japanese player who is just an amazing, excuse me, incredible baseball player.
Cathy: So who before him would you have called the best baseball player of all time?
Todd: Well, the people in the argument, excuse me Arod Babe Ruth, Willie Mays cheater.
No. No, [00:43:00] not cheater. No. No.
Cathy: This is so weird. I feel like every time I’ve said Arod, you’re like, no, he’s not respected. Just statistically
Todd: speaking. I mean, Arod, but,
Cathy: and Derek Jeter isn’t, he’s like a huge,
Todd: he was wonderful, but he’s not, he no. I love Jeter. I love Jeter a lot more than I love Arod, but, well, then why
Cathy: does everybody love him so much if he didn’t have
Todd: this?
’cause Arod ISS kind of a jerk, and Jeter was a play. He was loved and he did things for the right reasons, and he was a team player. But statistically speaking, Arod Barrys Jeter.
Cathy: Okay, I didn’t know that. But Arod was also. Taking the steroids. Steroids. That’s so is it a fair
Todd: comparison? That’s true.
That’s a good point. I part of, so you said, what about Cal
Cathy: Ripkin? You used to always talk about Cal
Todd: Ripkin. I love Cal Ripkin. One of the better shortstop ever to play and he has the record for most consecutive games played. But, and
Cathy: doesn’t his son play or did
Todd: I make that up? His brother Billy used to play, [00:44:00] did his dad play?
I think his dad may have been a coach. But anyways I was also thinking about maybe as we start to close the show, Uhhuh, you sent something on our group text that Lisa Dior shared. And I thought it might be I sent it to the girls. I thought it might be, oh, and then the other idea I had a few ideas, and I don’t know if we, the one is the Lisa Dior thing, so I’m just gonna read what you sent.
When teens say that girl’s popular, they’re usually saying that she’s powerful. And when she’s powerful, it’s usually because she’s willing to be mean and everyone knows it. If your daughter mentions that a girl is popular, ask if she, is she popular or just powerful? Do kids like her or are they scared of her?
Give your daughter a good reason to take popularity off of its pedestal. This can
Cathy: be true for boys, by the way, too. Of course. I obviously took that as a direct quote, you know it as like a meme and I sent it to the girls. ’cause I think it’s a interesting conversation about that word. I’ve always really struggled [00:45:00] with no, it’s not true.
It’s not, I haven’t always struggled with it, but sometimes the word means different things to different people. What does it mean to be popular? Like is it and let’s take it even outta high school. Why is someone popular? Is it because nobody wants to? You know, I know a certain Republican nominee right now who people would call popular, but is it because this is a good person?
Or is it because everybody’s
Todd: scared of this person? Almost. It’s a, it’s an invitation to be like, let’s break down that word. What does that word mean? Is, and I think it means they have the most social collateral.
Cathy: And why do they have the most social collateral? Is it because they have kindness and because they, they bring people into their group and because they’re, you know, they’re basically, they’re a Ferris Bueller.
They’re, and that’s a made up fictional character, by the way. But, you know, you’re nice to everybody and so people really like you. Or is it because people are terrified of you and they don’t wanna cross you? So you have. Social collateral because people will not mess with you. And that can be because you’re like a, you have a lot of power in your, [00:46:00] you know, in the theater or in your sport, or just you’re a big person, you know, like you could beat people up, you know?
And so it just, you know, it just depends. Like, sometimes there are girls you don’t wanna mess with because you know, they’ll talk about you and you don’t want, that can be a really simple thing. Like, I don’t even wanna mess with this person because then they’re just going to say all these things and it becomes an issue.
Or they’ll post something online, or they’ll say something unkind under my pictures. Like, it’s just kind of an interesting, I, like Todd said it’s just an interesting conversation that doesn’t have a final answer
Todd: to it. I’m gonna bring one other Pop Turing reference in here. I think it kind of belongs in it.
Hopefully the audio quality is better. It’s from the movie, A Bronx Tale. And the younger C his name is c is with The main gangster guy. Do you remember what his name was? It doesn’t matter. But it’s a, it’s a talk about whether it’s more important to be feared or loved. Oh, interesting.
Which I think is, and this
Cathy: is connected [00:47:00] to his dad too, right? Robert DeNiro character. ’cause he’s a good man. Yes. Because, right? So
Todd: nobody cares. Nobody cares. Where about yourself, your family,
Cathy: the people. That
Todd: important Post everything.
Cathy: Because being on the spot, I can see trouble immediately.
Trouble is like a cancer. You gotta get it early. Don’t get it early. It gets too big, then it kills you. That’s why I gotta cut it out.
Come on. You worried about Louis dos? Nobody cares. Nobody Caress worry about yourself, your family, the people that are important to you. That’s what it comes down to. Availability. The people in this neighborhood that see me every day that are on my side, they feel safe because they know I’m close. And that gives them more reason to love me.
But the people that wanna do otherwise, they think twice because they know I’m close and that gives them more reason to fear me. Is it better to be loved or fed? [00:48:00] That’s a good question. It’s nice to be both, but it’s very difficult. But if I had my choice, I would rather be feared. Fear lasts longer than love.
Friendships that I bought with money mean nothing you see with is around here. I make a joke, everybody laughs. I know I’m funny, but I’m not that funny. It’s fear that keeps them loyal to me. But the trick is not to be hated. That’s why I treat my men good, but not too good. I give them too much, then they don’t need me.
I give them just enough where they need me, but they don’t hate me. Don’t
Todd: forget what I’m telling you. How do you think that relates to the popularity discussion? I think it’s interesting. I.
Cathy: I think there’s a lot of truth in that. I don’t think that I wanna live that way, I don’t think, but I think in the conditions that, in a Bronx tale of what’s going on in that neighborhood, I think that makes sense for that person.
I think that he is, I think that’s often how the mob. You know, and again, I [00:49:00] don’t know if this is true historically, but the way the media presents the mob, that’s exactly what they do. They are feared. But they also treat the community that they live in very well. They pay people off.
They take care of people when they need it, but they also are then like, you owe me. And you will be accountable to me. So there’s like a lot of trading of love and fear. Obviously that is not healthy. I wouldn’t call that a healthy environment. No, I’d call that really, I think when you inject fear into anything, that’s the overwhelming emotion.
Like just, let’s just talk about parenting. If you take fear and you inject it into the relationship with your kid may have a good time with you. Occasionally, they may laugh with you and you may have some connections, and they may talk to you occasionally, but if there’s fear in the relationship, that’s the overriding factor and that will keep it from ever being a really cohesive relationship.
So [00:50:00] I think that’s a very. That’s a movie. Dialogue. I don’t think we wanna live that way, but I think for some That makes
Todd: sense. It’s a great it’s a great movie. The kid in that movie, his name is Lilo, l i l l. Brian Cado. And I heard these terrible stories about him, like, and he was charged with secondary second degree murder.
Did you know that? And he got sentenced to 10 years in prison and he almost overdosed a few times. He had some substance abuse things, but at the very, and this is on Wikipedia, so I don’t know if it’s true, but as of 2020, he claimed to be 13 years sober and his return to acting. Oh, that’s wonderful.
Cathy: What was his name in that movie? Kalo. Kalo. Kao. I always like to say that name. Kao. That’s why they call him C.
Todd: Yes. And he was in some stuff in 2021, so maybe he’s making a comeback. So that’s a
Cathy: great story.
Todd: The only other thing I had and maybe this will be the last thing that we talk about.
You and I had a conversation the other day and we were at [00:51:00] breakfast with some. Friends, and the mom was talking to you and the, about her daughter, but she wasn’t she wasn’t acknowledging Oh I know what you’re talking about. And I know that this is a little bit you get sensitive to this.
Cathy: So let me explain. So you understand. The mom, the daughter was there with us and the mom was telling me a story about that daughter, and the daughter was sitting there listening to it, but the mom was talking as if the daughter wasn’t there. And so now go
Todd: on. Well, I just, I think it’s an interesting exploration of why do you, Think that this is not harmful like times 10, but why do you think that this is a withdrawal in the relationship when you’re talking in front of your children about your children without acknowledging that your children are there?
Like, or [00:52:00] maybe not bringing them in because this has happened a few times and I think it is. I think it’s an interesting point that we’ve never talked about.
Cathy: I think think, I always feel, I sometimes get in those situations, in, in Thera this was more of a conversational thing, but in therapeutic situations where you’re working with a family that a lot of times the parents will talk to you about their kid and their kids right there, but they’re like not acknowledging them.
And I think that it is, there’s a lot of things that can be happening. Number one, I often notice that the kid doesn’t, isn’t really having big responses. ’cause they’re actually very used to this. They’re very used to being talked about without acknowledging that they’re there. So this is not that weird to them.
But I also think it, the child then it they’re, they don’t. To, in my experience, they don’t feel seen. They feel like there’s something to handle or they’re a problem to solve, but they are not part of the solution. They are just the [00:53:00] issue.
Todd: Well, let me bring in a little bit more.
Like I, you used to call me out on this too, and it would be like in my birth family, like I was the golden child. I was the one that wasn’t screwed, that didn’t screw up. Shane and John sometimes screwed up. Todd always got the good grades, blah, blah, blah. And that became my identity, right? And I think that there is, And, and I’m taking a leap from where we started to where we are now, is the idea that we’re summing up our children in a word.
And I have a niece, one of my favorite people in the whole world, her name is Maddie. And there was a time when she was going she going through puberty. She lost her balance a lot. And I’d be like, oh, she’s the clumsy one. And you’re like, Todd, it’s probably not the best thing.
And whatever la whenever we label anybody and sum them up in a word, it’s, unless the word is loving it’s probably not the best idea. You know
what
Cathy: I mean? Well, I just think with any, I think the thing with kids is just think about [00:54:00] them just like anybody else, just like adults in your life and maybe some people, like, I talk to adults this way too, but.
I can’t imagine being in a group of friends and me talking to a friend across the table about my other friend that’s there. Yeah, that’s a good one. And just saying like, oh, this friend, they really cause a problem. And they, and that friend is right there listening. And I think that, and having to like sit there through it.
And I think that we some, and it’s I just, I guess the, you know, so someone say, well, what would you do instead? I would engage them. Here’s the experience. I, you know, if my friend wanted to tell me this story at brunch and they wanted to tell it about their kid, I would start by saying, I wanna tell this story that involves you, you know, The one where you were really struggling.
Do you feel comfortable with me telling that story? And even giving the kid. You know, is it okay if we engage in this conversation? And a lot of times a kid will be like, okay, sure. And then saying, well, this [00:55:00] is how I experienced it. Did you experience it this way too? Or, what was your experience? So you’re telling the story together.
And then that kid feels like they have a voice. And that you’re getting the full story. Because as the parent, we know our experience with it. Our version of that
Todd: story, our version through our lens. But let’s get it from the horse’s
Cathy: mouth. Like there, let’s get it from both of our mouths.
Let’s, here’s how I’m experiencing and here’s how you’re experiencing it, and let’s talk about it so we can resolve it. Versus I’m gonna talk about my kid. Right in front of them and not like engage them in the conversation. And what I find interesting though is because like you said, this happens a lot in my line of work, is that the kid is just kind of sitting there because I think they’re just used to it.
And, but I don’t think that’s a good relationship builder. Well, I think there’s
Todd: a dismissiveness to it for sure. Right? For
Cathy: sure. And we’re not, and this is a thing, you know, parents who are listening to this who are like, Ooh, I do that. I don’t think you’re trying to harm, I don’t think that you’re like being awful.
I think you’re [00:56:00] probably doing what you think is typical, the way that we talk about kids. Even when they’re around you’re engaging in normal conversation. And this is just a new way of looking at it. Like they’re listening to you and they’re listening to you talk about them. And they’re, most of the time, if you’re having the conversation, it’s about a struggle.
Now sometimes parents are bragging about their kids. Can you believe how amazing they are? And that has its own challenges. Because you were just talking about being the golden child that has its own challenges. ’cause it also kept you from saying what you needed or engaging in conflict or, you know, made you uncomfortable with failure.
So that has its own problems. I just think that, you know, they are just as human and their way that they feel about themselves as others is just as heightened as
Todd: yours. I think the best thing that you said is like, this is like it’s a litmus test. If you would talk about your friend, the way you talk about your son or your daughter with them sitting
Cathy: there,
Todd: listen with them sitting there, [00:57:00] then it’s just an interesting way to see if it’s something.
That you would do? Like, just trying to think of, would I talk about my buddy without bringing my buddy in the conversation of his experience? Probably not. So there’s something there, it’s like a power dynamic and it’s a power
Cathy: dy and it’s a very parental, like, I think this is so common. I think a lot of people listening would be like, oh, my parents used to do that all the time.
They’d talk about me in front of me all the time. And this goes back to life patterns, right? How’d that work for you? Because if it didn’t work that great or if you kind of felt smaller or dismissed, maybe don’t do that and doesn’t mean you can’t talk about things. It means either do it.
When it’s just you and your friend where you can feel free to just go into your feelings or bring your kid into the conversation. Like there are plenty of times that I will say most of the time I have a vibe whether or not my girls are okay with me sharing something. But occasionally I’ve been like, can I share that story about what happened this morning?
And my girls will be [00:58:00] like, no, can’t. That would be So I’m like, okay, I’m done. You know, like making sure that we are sharing things that they feel comfortable with. Now if I’m struggling, maybe I go out with my friend and I talk about it on my own time.
Todd: Well, public service announcement, and this is something you’re super good at.
I don’t do it because I’m not on social media the way you are, but you ask every single time if you can post something that has their image in it. Yes, for sure. And, and I know you’re like, well, duh, I do that all the time. But there’s a lot of parents out there
Cathy: that don’t. And they’ve, you know, not only have I done that as a practice where I think that’s important too.
My girls have been clear, like, I don’t feel comfortable with that picture, or, you know, I don’t really wanna engage with other people that we were at this place. Or, you know, it’s not about keeping secrets. It’s just like once you put something out there, then there’s a whole story that has to go with it.
You know what I mean? Like, why were you there? What were you doing? Who’d you see? Like, and sometimes they just. That’s not, that was just time with their family. And they don’t want a big post about
Todd: it. [00:59:00] So, in closing I’m gonna remind everybody at checkout Team Zen and also to remind everybody to write a review for Cathy’s book.
If you’ve read it, if you haven’t read it, then just go ahead and buy the book. The link is there if you’ve read
Cathy: it and you loved it. And, and you can do that for the podcast too. You know, writing a review, you were saying that’s not
Todd: that big of a deal. No. That’s like a misnomer. Like reviews do not equate to exposure or algorithms.
Are you sure? That’s what the podcast experts have told
Cathy: me. I just, it’s hard for me to believe that. I still say leave a review. Well put it
Todd: this way. I think it would help. Like, I don’t know how many reviews we have, but quite a few. 600. We have like 600. I’m not saying it’s not helpful, but it’s helpful to the people that are doing a search, looking us up, looking at the reviews.
Yes. I think from an algorithmic standpoint, I have been told it’s not any more likely to show up in somebody’s feed or, Hey, you might like this too.
Cathy: So maybe it’s more like if you are listening to the show, [01:00:00] make sure you’re following us. Yeah, because that’s really helpful. You know, following the show is really helpful, so thank you for listening and
Todd: And if there’s any YouTubers out there subscribe to your YouTube channel.
Subscribe to YouTube, which is all in the show notes, so all these resources are out in the show notes. So, anything else babe? That’s it. Keep everybody.
