Todd and Cathy discuss the difficult, but also transformational quality of change and how it teaches us to grow and trust life’s patterns. They answer a listener question about how to view their daughter’s outbursts and challenging behavior, and they share and process three quotes from Season 2 of The Bear – starting with Richie’s thought-provoking quote, “I’m not like this because I’m in Van Halen. I’m in Van Halen because I’m like this… For the full show notes, visit

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Time Stamps

(00:00:00) Introduction

(00:02:00) Three things

(00:18:18) Ask me anything question about adolescent daughter who has outbursts of anger

(00:33:00) Three quotes- I’m not like this b/c I’m in Van Halen…

(00:42:02) I’ve learned to be better, and not perfect.

(00:50:30) …because it’s been really inspired

(00:58:48) Avid Co DuPage County Area Decorating, Painting, Remodeling by Avid Co includes kitchens, basements, bathrooms, flooring, tiling, fire and flood restoration.

(00:58:58) MenLiving – A virtual and in-person community of guys connecting deeply and living fully. No requirements, no creeds, no gurus, no judgements

(00:59:02) Todd Adams Coaching

(00:59:07) Zen Parenting Book


Ask Us Anything




Better, Not Perfect

In this episode of the Zen Parenting Radio podcast, hosts Todd and Cathy Adams delve into various topics, providing valuable insights and updates for their listeners. From discussing the importance of embracing change and personal growth to promoting their YouTube channel, Team Zen app, and Cathy’s book, they offer a holistic perspective on parenting and life. This article aims to summarize the key points discussed in the episode, highlighting the significance of self-reflection, empathy, and finding inner sustenance.

Change is an inevitable part of life, and Todd and Cathy emphasize its significance in personal growth. They play songs that capture the essence of change and urge listeners to embrace it as a catalyst for positive transformation. They encourage individuals to let go of their comfort zones and embark on new experiences that foster personal development.

The hosts address a question from a parent regarding their daughter’s explosive behavior and difficulty taking responsibility. Cathy emphasizes the importance of managing expectations and understanding cultural norms surrounding children’s behavior. They acknowledge that each child is unique, and if counseling alone proves ineffective, seeking professional help is a viable option.

Todd and Cathy stress the importance of empathizing with their children’s behavior, even when it involves explosive reactions. They highlight the significance of self-regulation and being a role model for their kids. Todd shares a personal realization of needing to regulate himself before advising others to do the same, showcasing the importance of self-awareness in parenting.

The concept of “better, not perfect” emerges as an essential theme in the discussion. The hosts discuss societal pressures for perfection and the detrimental effects they can have on relationships and self-worth. They urge listeners to prioritize personal growth and remain open to the world and themselves. By striving to be better, individuals can focus on continuous improvement rather than an unattainable notion of perfection.

Todd and Cathy highlight the need for finding sustenance within oneself during challenging times. They mention the value of introspection, embracing change, and nurturing personal interests. Drawing from quotes shared from the TV show “The Bear,” they emphasize the importance of staying inspired and being open to new experiences.

In wrapping up the episode, Todd and Cathy remind listeners to engage with their content on various platforms, including their YouTube channel, Team Zen app, and Cathy’s Zen Parenting Moment. They express gratitude to their sponsor and encourage readers to explore their coaching services and Cathy’s book, “Zen Parenting: Parenting Ourselves and Our Children in an Unpredictable World.” Instead of the usual closing music, they share a YouTube clip of Oriah Mountain Dreamer’s poem, “The Invitation,” which encourages self-reflection and authenticity. They conclude by reiterating the importance of personal growth and finding sustenance within oneself, especially during challenging moments.

The Zen Parenting Radio podcast provides valuable insights and advice on various aspects of parenting and personal growth. Todd and Cathy’s discussion on embracing change, empathizing with children’s behavior, striving for personal betterment, and finding sustenance within oneself resonates deeply. By promoting self-awareness and fostering connections, they encourage listeners to embark on a journey of continuous improvement and fulfillment.


ZPR#717 – Better, Not Perfect Full Episode Transcript – DOWNLOAD

Todd: Here we go. My name’s Todd. This is Cathy. Welcome back to another episode of Zen Parenting Radio’s podcast, number 717. While listen to Zen Parenting Radio because you’ll feel outstanding and always remember our motto, which is the best predictor of a child’s wellbeing is a parents’. Self understanding.

Todd: Today we’re gonna talk about hypervigilance. 

Cathy: No, remember I sent you a text and I said we ha we have three 

Todd: quotes. Oh, so it’s not about 

Cathy: hypervigilance anymore? No. We did a show about hypervigilance. I can’t say it hypervigilance a couple months ago. Oh. So I sent you a text. I said scratch that. 

Cathy: We’ve 

Todd: already done a show about it.

Todd: That’s too bad cuz I had a even a definition lined up for a hyper. Three quotes start. 

Cathy: I have three quotes instead. All right? Yes. And do you, so do you wanna know what they’re about though? Sure. Just to kind of set the tone. Well, all three of them are from a show that we’re watching called The Bear, which I hope everybody’s watching it.

Cathy: I am not gonna do anything like it. It’s, people are still watching it, meaning the season two just came out and I’m not gonna do any spoilers and we’re not, we’re gonna talk about some of the. The quotes, like the heart of the show. And even if you’re not watching the show, that’s okay. This just kind of gives you a feel for what they’re talking about.

Cathy: And they are about the ability to be to get better but not be perfect. The ability to stay inspired and then one that I’ll save. But I think the show does a good job talking about what it means to live and connect with people and what it means to grow and change and you know, I would prefer you watch it so you can kind of get your own experience, but we can definitely talk about it without ruining anything does make.


Todd: So we’re gonna talk the bear but not.

Todd: I don’t know if he’s got something pot in his throat or what’s going on there. It’s called grizzly Sound effects on YouTube. I was 

Cathy: not 

Todd: expecting that sound. Speaking of YouTube Cathy and I have a YouTube channel. You can watch all our podcasts, but you can also see little clips that we make as well.

Cathy: You gotta start with the three things, babe. Oh, the structure. Remember, we’re trying to do the structure.

Todd: I know. That’s the first thing I know, but you didn’t say we got many things. Oh, sorry. Oh, so explain the framework. Yeah, 

Cathy: because we do, when we listen back to our shows, we are like, there’s so many things that we’re saying do this or do that, but we’re not giving it a good structure.

Cathy: So we just had this long conversation about, we’re gonna say do three things. Three things. 

Todd: First one, like, subscribe, comment on our new YouTube channel. 

Cathy: Awesome. And the thing about our YouTube channel is we used to have a YouTube channel, but it was kind of messy and disorganized, and then we lost access to it.

Cathy: And now it’s much more organized. So number two 

Todd: Team Zen.. The Circle app, the 

Cathy: cir, you gotta join our app. Team Zen app. It has everything Zen Parenting Radio. If you like the show, if you like the things we talk about, you have got to get on our app. 

Todd: A few things on the app is Cathy’s Women’s only group.

Todd: Swag. Microcommunities. Zen Talks. And I wanna say hi to our newest Team Zen member Emma from Bend, Oregon. Thank you, Emma, for joining us. Yes. 

Cathy: Thank you, Emma. Sorry, I talked over the clapping and there’s just people from all over the country. So I think sometimes when we’re feeling, don’t forget about, 

Todd: We’ll get to three in a second.

Todd: No. It’s New Zealand. I know. Well, all over the world. I’m sorry. You’re right. There are people from all over the world. Don’t shortchange it. I’m, you’re right. It’s an international community and I I think sometimes when we feel alone, like we’re doing this family thing and nobody else understands and we get Supreme Court rulings that we’re like, what’s going on?

Cathy: Then you have this whole community on this app where it’s not that everybody thinks the exact same way, it’s just there’s other people who are dealing with similar things. That’s right. We all kind of help each other expand and grow. 

Todd: So that’s the second of the three things. And the, the third one.

Todd: The third one is to subscribe. Subscribe to Cathy’s Zen Parenting moment. And if you got it in the email last Friday your email box, you, this may be familiar here.

Todd: When does Peter come in?

Todd: Oh, Peter. 

Cathy: Yeah, the Grizzly and Peter. They’re just giving me a 

Todd: bunch. I feel like, I mean, I’m watching the video itself right now. Cindy’s in this wonderful purple outfit. Yes. Marsha’s always like Miss Perfect. She drives me nuts. And then good old Jan. And then Greg is in this slick, good old Jan.

Todd: That’s all you have for Jan. That’s all I got for Jan. Greg is in this slick little outfit where the tassels are. Oh, it’s like a Johnny, it’s Fringe thing. Uhhuh and Greg is in this wonderful 1970. T-shirt and then good old Bobby, who’s my favorite. You just said Greg, 

Cathy: but you meant Peter. Peter. Sorry, Peter.

Cathy: So Greg is in his Johnny Bravo suit? 

Todd: Yes. Oh yes. I don’t know if it’s a Johnny Bravo suit, but he’s 

Cathy: the only one wearing 

Todd: French. Yes. Can you see it? 

Cathy: I just shared lemme see. Pat’s pulling it up. So you could go to YouTube to watch this part. Oh he’s wearing, he’s kind, it’s like a shirt though.

Cathy: It’s not like a suit. I should wear that. You know what they’re wearing perfectly age appropriate. Like what Greg’s wearing is like a total teenage outfit. Peter’s wearing a total, like, I’m pro I’m in that middle space. And I don’t know what to wear. Cause I’m not a kid and I’m not like a teen.

Cathy: And then Bobby of course, is wearing a nice striped turtleneck. 

Todd: He looks like that’s the Ernie from Burt. Ernie the turtle Ernie shirt. Okay. So anyways, step here. So, so Cathy did a moment and what was the title? Do you remember Sweetie?

Cathy: I think I called it Full Progress. 

Todd: Okay. And any, what’s your summation of that?

Cathy: So, it’s funny that I use the Brady Bunch song because it’s kind of a, it’s the word juxtaposition. I’m never quite sure how to use that word, but I think I got the gist of it, that it’s kind of different than the tone of the actual writing. Because the, what I wrote about was, I was at Cameron’s orientation for college last week and, you know, you’re just like, are we here?

Cathy: Are we, is my, are my children leaving again? It’s hard and I think that no matter how old your kids are, these shifts, these changes, them going to a new school, them graduating them, you know, going to school at all. Like if you have a four year old or a five-year old who’s going to school for the first time in the fall?

Cathy: It’s just, these are big changes. And I wrote about how there’s this voice that I think everyone can relate to that sometimes tells us it’s okay to stay as you are. Don’t change. Like when, you know, we have an opportunity to do something new, there’s a voice that’s like, you don’t have to change, you don’t have to do it.

Cathy: You can just stay put and be safe. And the voice is very soothing. And I think that’s why it can be difficult cuz we’re like, but that makes me feel so soothed and safe. But then we have this other wise voice that comes up and it’s like you have to jump into the fire, you have to change, you have to go onto the next phase.

Todd: We were just talking about kids who stick around college for that fifth year. That fifth year. And how it seems like such a good idea when you’re a senior, because if you have a fun college experience, your senior year is always fun. But then we know people who stayed for that fifth year and it’s always got this kind of different feel to it.

Todd: Because most of your friends that you got there with are gone. And you don’t really feel like you belong as much as you did when you were a senior. 

Cathy: It’s like if you do a completely different thing, like say you live in an apartment and you have different friends, or you’re staying for grad school, maybe it’s totally different.

Cathy: Right? But if you’re trying to recreate something trying to, it can be challenging. I mean it, it can be like even me, I graduated and then I went back to school, you know, in the fall to see Todd actually. And it was just not fun. It wasn’t, my friends weren’t there, it wasn’t my time.

Cathy: It’s like, you know, when your time, and that’s the wise voice is the wise voice is like, this time has ended. You need to move to the 

Todd: next time. I sometimes, I used to feel like that in my thirties when we would, you know, when we would get a babysitter and go into Lincoln Park. After we started having kids.

Todd: Totally. And we saw these like 25 year old kids at the bars that we used to occupy. Totally. Like, what are you guys doing here? This is my bar. Totally. And actually it wasn’t. 

Cathy: Well, and I just, I have such distinct memories. Like I, I have a memory of being at Yak-Zies, like, you know, late night and the, a guy was talking to my friend Amy, and he was 30.

Cathy: And I’m like, why are you here? Like, I remember in my mind being like, why is this 30 year old here talking to my friend and here, you know, we are it’s. And again, it’s all relative. It doesn’t mean 30 year olds shouldn’t go to bars or that 50 year olds shouldn’t go to bars. It just means what? Are you doing a new thing or are you trying to recreate an old thing?

Cathy: There are no rules about that you can’t do it. It’s just what is your reason? Like where are you in your space and time? 

Todd: In a relatively disconnected story. I just watched a little documentary on The Doors, Uhhuh, and there’s the all four of the members, The Doors are at this party and the party’s just kinda weird.

Todd: Even for the Doors guys must be very weird. And Ray is like, man, this isn’t our scene. These people are vampires. And Ray and John and Robbie all ba and Jim stays and they said, and I don’t know which of the other band members says, I remember the night that happened and we realized Jim was just in a different place.

Todd: Anyways. 

Cathy: Well, it’s kind of like in almost famous when, what’s his name? He’s the guitar player. He’s Ru Russell, thank you. Russell Hammond. When he, you know, he’s doing drugs and he ends up at that high school party and then the whole band comes to pick him up. You know, it’s right before that poignant moment where they play tiny dancer, but they’re, he gets in and they’re all like, what are you doing, dude?

Cathy: I mean, there’s a lot of layers of what’s going on in that moment. It’s not just about him being at that party, but that’s, he’s in a different space than they are. And that’s on many different layers. He’s a better musician, but he’s also like doing things they wouldn’t do. I just always find that scene to be very layered and interesting.

Todd: Is this the scene you’re talking about? 

Cathy: Definitely.

Cathy: John. John. And you could tell Rolling 

Todd: Stone Magazine. And 

Cathy: my last words were,

Cathy: The dog. 

Todd: I’m on drugs.

Todd: Did I keep playing it 

Cathy: or no? You, I mean, no, because we’re doing it, but it’s still, it’s a great scene. And then he tries to do something more deep, more relative to his age. And understanding. And the kids don’t like it. No. He says something else and they’re like no. He, like, he 

Todd: says, I’m on drugs.

Todd: I dig music. And they’re like, yeah, that’s pretty good. And they’re like, 

Cathy: maybe I’m on drugs. And that, and again, he shouldn’t, that’s, he’s in a different phase of life. Did we show that with 

Todd: the show that to the girls, they didn’t like it that 


Cathy: Well, I think they thought it was long. And I remember seeing almost famous the first time and being like that it has a, it’s a bit of an acquired taste like now.

Cathy: I love it and I can pick it up at any time, but it’s not, Jerry McGuire. Have we 

Todd: done a pop culturing on that? Oh, okay. Yeah, that’s one of our fas. 

Cathy: But like the bottom line of the Zen parenting moment that I sent out is just about that we have to it what we think. The last thing that I wrote, the last paragraph I wrote was, sometimes we think change is gonna kill us, but it’s actually the thing that saves us because we ha we’re like, oh my God, if I have to leave, if I have to change, if I have to move if I have to get a divorce, if I have to watch my kids leave, whatever, it’s gonna kill me.

Cathy: But it’s actually, it saves you because change is what helps you begin again and reestablish and have resilience and recognize the way life works. Life is cycles, and you don’t get to stay in this linear pattern for a long period of time. And if you allow yourself to change, you see the process and you’re less scared, like, The amount of times, I mean, I’ve had the same meditation area for I think 15 years or 10 years or, no, that can’t be it.

Cathy: It because we’ve only been in this house for like eight years, but it doesn’t matter. Whenever we moved in, I’ve had the same, and I have so many memories of sitting in meditation going, wow, this change is just gonna change everything and will I ever be as happy again? And you always are, but it’s in a different way for a different reason.

Cathy: It’s not going to be for the exact same thing you have to. So I used a Anis n quote that she had. A lot of people know the beginning of the quote, but they don’t know the whole quote. And will you read the whole quote? Do you have 

Todd: it in front of you? Let me see if I have it in front of me.

Cathy: People always take the first line from it, but they don’t get the whole point, which is she’s trying to say exactly what is it 

Todd: per, let’s see. It’s at the bottom of the sentence and the date came with the risk. To remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom, and that’s the 

Cathy: one that is most popular.

Cathy: But then keep 

Todd: going. Life is a process of [00:13:20] becoming a combination of states we have to go through. Where people fail is that they wish to elect a state and remain in it. This is a kind of death living, never wore one out so much as the effort not to live. Life is truly known only to those who suffer, lose, endure adversity and stumble from defeat to defeat.

Todd: Perfection is static and I am in 

Cathy: full progress. Yeah, so that’s why I called it full progress. And we are gonna talk about that, the being better rather than perfect at some point today. So it connects. But as Todd said, number three, we said we were gonna say this so concisely. Yeah, not quite. Number three is scroll below, subscribe to Zen parenting moment, 

Todd: and you can do all three of these things by just yeah, scrolling.

Todd: Meanwhile YouTube 

Cathy: try to change their world. Yes.

Cathy: Pull off. 

Todd: You notice I did not play my Blind Melon song. I know we talk about change a lot and I always played my blind melon change and today I went, David Bowie. I’m glad You’re 

Cathy: welcome. So glad you did. And what about John Waite? You could have played John Waite. 

Todd: Which one’s that 

Cathy: change by John Waite?

Cathy: Yeah, why don’t you play it cuz it’s good. 

Todd: What’s the one song by John Waite I know Missing You? Oh yeah, because I remember the video because he is got the headphones on. 

Cathy: Correct. And he misses when she knocks on the door. 

Todd: So, This is a sweetie song right here.

Cathy: Wait, cause it’s cool.

Cathy: Guess what? They used this send, they used this in VisionQuest. Oh really? When he is climbing the wall. Oh we always 

Todd: wish 

Cathy: they’re about to say change.

Todd: Doesn’t matter who you are, it’s all the same. Change is one of the most foundational, I don’t know. Personal growth topics. We talk about butterflies and moths and so many metaphorical, meta office and all that stuff. 

Cathy: Well, and I think what it’s okay that you have a moment where you’re like, I don’t have to cha Oh, sorry.

Cathy: Where you’re like, I don’t have to change. I feel safer if I don’t change. I think that’s very human. And I think that being able to talk about that and saying, I don’t, I do wanna do a fifth year, or I don’t wanna make a big change right now, or I’m not willing to change my job. It’s okay. Like there is a sense of sometimes safety that we feel, and there is a timing thing.

Cathy: But there are certain moments, like for example, when I was in high school, I didn’t wanna go to college, obviously I wanted to go to college. I was lucky that I had the opportunity. And let me be clear, I knew I was gonna go. But I was so bummed. You were so comfortable. I was so comfortable. So that necessitated my wise self is I didn’t really have a choice, but I didn’t want to.

Cathy: And part of me is like, what do I get? You know? Maybe I, it would be so much better if I didn’t. And of course I needed to jump in and do it and I, it, you know, it is, I’ve had to do that my whole life. You know, moving from a job to a job, moving to a different city. You know, these choices we have to make.

Cathy: But it’s, I just think I’m trying to soothe that part of ourself that says I’d prefer not to change. It’s like, correct. I think all of us have that, but there are points in time when we know we have to, because we are in full progress. Right. We have to keep moving. No doubt. Okay. 

Todd: I was gonna play this lesson.

Todd: I dunno what the hell he’s talking about. Anyway, that’s what you’re talking about. So this is somebody who didn’t wanna graduate high school. Is this McConaughey? So you’re a freshman, right? I may have missed the line though. So tell me man, how’s this year’s crop of freshman chicks? Look, what’d you gonna end up 

Cathy: in jail sometime really soon?

Cathy: I know that. No man. No man. That’s what I love about these high school girls, man. 

Todd: I get older. They say same age that you, oh my God. It’s a classic line. 

Cathy: It’s a classic line. And the best part about that clip is that Fox on the run is playing in the back. 

Todd: And for those of you guys who know what Fox on the run is, go ahead and raise your hand.

Todd: I’m not raising my hand right now. People know 

Cathy: Fox on the 

Todd: run. People, some people. But yeah, I think Matthew McConaughey’s character did not really wanna graduate high school. 

Cathy: And he at, you know, and again, we don’t know what’s going on in his mind and it’s a fictional character, but he probably didn’t care.

Cathy: There were people that I grew up with who stayed, didn’t do much different, kind of maintained and might’ve been very comfortable doing that. Like I, but I think this is a very individual experience. Like, some people may say you have to take that job, and some people may be like, that’s not right for me.

Cathy: Everybody’s 

Todd: different. Everybody’s different. So let’s go with these three quotes. Oh, what? I thought we had a question. Oh, that’s right. I forgot about 


Cathy: question. Nice job. We haven’t asked me anything. On our website and you can actually scroll below and click on Ask me anything and we get 

Todd: questions.

Todd: Here’s the one problem is I don’t know how old the daughter is that this woman is asking about. Okay. So it might challenge us to support her. I actually did just email her just in case she was gonna get it. But here’s the question. Okay. My, I, Kathleen ta, my husband and I have been trying our best to provide our daughter support since she was like three years old.

Todd: She explodes so easily, especially when she does not get what she wants. She forgets in quotes, requests or 

Cathy: We already do this. We talked about anger last 

Todd: week. Maybe we did it on a Zen talk. I thought, I don’t remember if we did this or not. I don’t think we did, but maybe let me read it and if we already did it, we’ll just refer back.

Todd: Yeah, I think we did. She forgets requests or directions. She te she tested negative by far for A D H D. Okay. I don’t remember reading that. Okay. She screams to the whole family, including her four year old brother. Lately, she has a hard time taking responsibility and a bit of lying. Okay. We’ve been going to counseling for a year with no huge improvement.

Todd: I’m a scared mom wondering if they will last forever, especially as the teen years we’ll be here before we know it. Scream time is a trigger, and while we set time limits and boundaries, that becomes another fight. It’s like there’s not a win for anyone, and we are constantly trying to acquire more balanced and less confrontation.

Todd: We have read books, attended Positive Parenting Solutions, counseling, and nothing seems to work. Thanks. Thanks. I don’t think we’ve answered this. You 

Cathy: might be right. I think we probably just answered another question about anger. Yeah, it was a similar question, but different. So it sounds like she’s a pre-adolescent or an adolescent calling in years.

Cathy: 10 years old. And you know, I think that I have a lot of different things going on in my head because there’s just no way, because I don’t know this kid. I can’t be like, here’s what’s going on. I have no idea. The only thing I can look at it from is, from a parenting lens is I think did she say if it was their first kid or their second kid or, 

Todd: Well, this daughter who they’re struggling with has a four year old sibling.

Todd: Okay. So 

Cathy: it’s the first kid. I think sometimes we have a belief system or maybe an expectation of how our kids will be, especially, you know, how they were maybe at seven. And then they’ll be similar at eight or they’ll be similar at 10 or whatever. And not only do we have the expectation of them, but we also have this cultural expectation of that they are going to do A, B, and C.

Cathy: They’re gonna be in this sport and they’re gonna go to this school and they’re gonna get these kind of grades and we kind of have already created an idea in our head of how our kid is supposed to interact with the world. And so that creates right off the bat of suffering when our kid is not accommodating or you know, showing up in the way that we thought they would or that the kid down the street did, or our niece did or whatever.

Cathy: And so there is why this is important to understand is of course, it’s normal to have expectations about, you know, not hurting people and you know, it’s proper behavior, proper be, and even that word, proper behavior can be how about this nonviolent behavior? Okay. You know, where you’re not harming anybody, do no harm kind of thing.

Cathy: But. This time that she’s in is a time where she’s kind of figuring out who she is. And she’s having a lot of experiences with a lot of different sides of her personality. She’s being, she’s probably more now, there’s a development part, there’s a brain development too that’s going on where she’s starting to acknowledge different aspects of the culture and what’s being asked of her.

Cathy: And she started she’s had abstract thinking since she was eight. So things are starting to get a little murky, right? And so she’s trying to figure this out, and if there is this belief system that she needs to get on a certain path and quick, then she’s gonna fight against that. I think any kid is, or not any kid, some kids say, okay, I’ll jump on the path.

Cathy: Like, it just depends on the personality. But why I’m saying this, I’m trying to expand the way you look at it, because instead of, we need to get her in gear. We’re afraid we need to get her in gear. What if the switch was, our goal right now is to get to know her. What are the things she’s asking for? What is she trying to communicate to us?

Cathy: Rather than how do we get her to accommodate cultural demands? And I think just that shift, I’m not saying it’s gonna make everything better, but can you let go of how you think she’s supposed to be acting, interacting, reacting, and be more like, oh, that’s interesting. She got really mad when we brought up A, B, and C.

Cathy: And then maybe when she’s not feeling, you know, angry or she’s calm maybe before bed or when you’re like having a good time with her, you can say, you know, the other day you were really angry when I brought this thing up. Is there something I’m missing? Is there something I don’t know about you that you wish I knew?

Cathy: And I think what’s interesting about this, Todd, is sometimes parents are scared to ask these questions. You know what I mean? Because a bunch of things could be going on. The kid could be dealing with something at school that’s hard. They could be afraid of something. They could be dealing with their own identity.

Cathy: They could be feeling there’s something going on. And sometimes as a parent, and I’m saying this from experience, like I sometimes have loved it when my kids have come to me later and been like, I was having this struggle, but here’s how I got through it. And I’m like, whew, yeah, glad you got through that.

Cathy: I stepped that one because I would’ve really struggled with your struggle. But then I that at the same time, I’m so grateful when they come to me in the midst of a struggle because I get to help set a foundation for them and be a support system and so they don’t have to go through it alone. So, you know, the truth is it’s hard.

Cathy: So I’m not saying you should wanna do this, but what I’m saying is, can you be more curious with her rather than worried about how to control her? And I’m using that word really loosely cuz I’m sure you’re not. Consciously trying to control her, but there’s a sense of how do we get her back on the right path?

Cathy: How do we modify her behavior and what is the right path? What is that? What does that mean to you to be with a certain set of kids to do a certain thing at school? Like I find that this is an age where a lot of kids start to maybe question church. Or they start to question teachers.

Cathy: They start to question authority. 

Todd: They question the things that they used to go along with. Right. 

Cathy: Right. And that conversation, Is really interesting because they may be, even though they do have abstract thinking, they may be a little black and white about it. Like, I’ve decided all teachers are bad, or I’ve decided religion’s stupid.

Cathy: Or I’ve decided, you know, sports are dumb. Sports are dumb and music’s dumb. The convers, music’s dumb. Or your music’s dumb. 

Todd: Or the, or I don’t wanna take piano anymore. Quit. Right. Quit making me whatever. And 

Cathy: can we, instead of talking them into no, you used to like this. Or How could you say that?

Cathy: Or How dare you, which they’re just gonna push back on you defensively because basically you’re not hearing them. They’re trying to communicate something to you instead to say, I can understand why you feel that way based on this experience. Or maybe you’re done with piano for now, or, you know, But the conversation itself is where they start to understand nuance and paradox.

Cathy: Is you start to say things like, let’s say it’s about religion or religion. I know that’s a, you know, third rail issue, but I’m not gonna get deep into it if they’re like, I don’t wanna go to church anymore and say, you know, tell me about it. What are the things you don’t like? Well, I can’t go, you know, I can’t be out there with the rest of the adults.

Cathy: I have to go back here and do this. I don’t believe in some of the things they’re saying, or it’s dumber, or there’s a kid there that drives me crazy, whatever. And see, that totally makes sense to me. And at the same time, I don’t want you to believe that everything that you’re learning is or every experience that you’re having is all of what church is.

Cathy: Is there’s more. It’s so funny that I’m using church, like I don’t know why I’m using that. But there’s things in it that can be lovely, but maybe it’s something you do on your own time. Maybe it’s something around faith or hope or meditation. Like my point is that, There [00:26:40] anything that our kid is pushing against us, it’s so uncomfortable.

Cathy: But as tan and I always say it’s a door. It’s in it. It’s how we get to know our kids. It’s how our kids are allowed to share with us who they are. The only time this gets really bad and murky is if we believe there’s only one way.

Todd: And it’s our way. Well, and I’ll just add to that, and you kind of took a lot of what I would have said.

Todd: So it was great instinct alike, I guess, sweetie. Yes. I was gonna say, you know, the storms come Yes. As raising young people. You know, they get volatile. And they get reactive. So do your best and I’m sure the person who wrote in is doing her best to weather the storm and she’s scared. 

Todd: And she’s scared. And just know that as much as I would love to say, yeah, we have control over how the storm show up. When the storm show up. We don’t, the only thing that we really have much control over is our response to it. So as hard and as not helpful as this invitation is really focus on your own response, emotional response to it as best you can.

Todd: And then the other thing I was gonna say, which you already said is engage when times are good. Get curious when times are good because when the storm is here, they’re in their, the back of their brain and you’re not gonna get anywhere. That’s just a, that’s just trying to weather that storm.

Todd: But then when they can kind of float into this underdeveloped prefrontal cortex, which isn’t get fully developed until what you’re 25? And I would challenge that there’s some people never developed that prefrontal cortex, including me sometimes. That’s when you wanna engage when they’re in a kind of a calmer state.

Todd: So, but there’s no answers. Every kid is different, every set of experience is different. 

Cathy: And especially if it’s your first, then nothing’s. Like if with our third child, there’s a lot of experiences she has that are very familiar to us, so we’re kind of like, we’re not afraid of it because it’s like, yeah, I remember this stage, like we’re talking in the car and this is so not a big issue.

Cathy: This doesn’t really threaten our emotional wellbeing. But do you remember how there was in fourth or fifth grade, their shoes were so gross? Like they would face come home and I’d be like, wash your feet. Oh your shoes are so gross. And I remember, you know, you think it’s a one of the, you think it’s an individual thing.

Cathy: But then you realize all three of your kids in that time period had really gross shoes. And so it’s like, then it’s not worrisome for you. It’s just a, it’s just puberty and it’s a phase and a phase of life. And that’s a really simple one because there’s no emotional, you know? But I think that sometimes broadening your perspective on that of like, she is trying to tell me something like, When babies you know, when infants can’t get their needs met, what do they do?

Cathy: Cry. They cry. So when our kids are older and they do have language, but they don’t feel understood and their needs aren’t being met, they’re gonna stomp and yell and cry. And we of course can set expectations around what’s safe and what’s not safe. You know, it’s always good to have boundaries and structure, and you talk to them about that, but there’s something she’s trying to communicate, even if it’s, she doesn’t even know what it is.

Cathy: I don’t mean there’s a scary problem out there. I mean, it might be like, I’m starting to feel uncomfortable with my body. I’m scared of what comes next. Like some of her feelings may just be normal kid things. But she doesn’t know how to communicate it. And if we are less worried about what does this mean, and we gotta get her on track.

Cathy: Versus where is my kid right now? And I wanna meet her where she is. 

Todd: Well, and one thing that I find myself now saying, cuz I used to tell people like, you know, if they get all reactive, I’d say take a breath. And now I say, Todd, take a breath. Before I, yes. Before I ever tell anybody else to take a breath.

Todd: Sure. I need to take my breath because when I tell somebody else to take a breath, that’s me saying to them, I can’t handle you how you’re being right now. 

Cathy: And it sounds condescending. 

Todd: Right. It who wants to hear that? Take a breath. That doesn’t help. Instead, how can I regulate myself and bring some of that regulation to the energy between me and this person?

Cathy: Role model? Yeah, role model. Role model. You know, like you don’t even, I maybe you don’t even say, Hey, I’m gonna take a breath, and then you take a breath. You just take a breath. 

Todd: No, that’s what I mean. I don’t even, you get, you don’t say it anymore. Don’t even say that. But yeah, whenever I hear a story, so I told her to take a breath.

Todd: I’m like, dude, did you take a breath? And most of the time’s like, no, because I’m not okay with what is happening in this moment. So I need somebody else to calm down because I don’t have the ability to calm myself down. 

Cathy: And I, we kind of talked about that, I think last week or the week before about when parents will say, how do I get my kids to do meditation and yoga?

Cathy: And I’m like, do you do meditation and yoga? Because I think people read about things and they’re like, I want my kid to do it. And it’s like, but. And they might be interested, but I think there’s a 20% chance versus an 80% chance if they see you doing it. What are the ways that you calm down?

Cathy: If we don’t consider ourselves part of the equation and what our kids are doing, not just about the role modeling, but how we are showing up in every conversation. If we are showing up in every conversation, really afraid, then our kids are gonna feel afraid too. And so it’s like we have to, you know, monitor ourselves.

Cathy: All right, so hopefully that helps. Your hair looks really good today. 

Todd: Really. It’s funny cuz I actually don’t like the way it’s looking right now. Really? No, it’s too like, Wall Street, slick, straight back. Ross. Ross? No, not Ross. Like, he swim here, like Gordon Gecko. Okay. Or Bud Fox from Wall Street.

Todd: Bud Fox. Does, bud Foxx do a slick back? Eventually he starts, oh, he starts replicating Gordon’s hairdo because in the beginning he’s got kind of like regular hair and then he turns into a gecko like figure. Got it. We should do Wall Street. 

Cathy: We should. Do you know how many times I’ve seen that movie?

Cathy: I know. I like, and I don’t, I don’t. Well, I do love it. Actually, I do love it, but there’s parts, you know, I’m not a huge fan of Darryl Hannah in that movie. I do know that. What’s her 

Todd: name in that movie again? Her name Darryl. 

Cathy: It’s like a very unique name. 

Todd: I don’t know. I 

Cathy: don’t remember it. And you know, one thing about that movie that we don’t really talk about that much is that she had been with Gordon as well.

Cathy: Oh they had been sleeping together also. 

Todd: You know what else we don’t talk about? What? We don’t talk about Bruno. We don’t just spill, we don’t talk about Bruno. No. You spilled your coffee. I did. 

Cathy: Just a little bit. It’s fine. Just a little bit. Has a lot on it all. So, okay, so here’s my three quotes.

Cathy: Three, and we’re gonna have quotes, quick conversations about them or nice conversations. Two Cs, quick conversations. Sweet. My, my first one is just fun. 

Todd: That’s your quote. No. Oh, I was gonna say, this is a quote. It’s not a very good quote if it’s just 

Cathy: fun. So again, just to re, these quotes are from the TV show, the Bear season two.

Cathy: Okay. I’m not going to ruin anything. I’m not gonna hype pump. Great episode. Sixes. You just did. Go ahead. I just did, but I’m not gonna even talk about it. I’m gonna say I’m not like this because I’m in Van Halen. I’m in Van Halen because I’m like this. 

Todd: Okay, so we break that down. I’m not like this because I’m in Van Halen.

Todd: I’m in Van Halen because I’m like this. So the reason I am who I think I am, I, I don’t know if I can verbalize, I think I understand it, but I’m having a hard time verbalizing what that quote 

Todd: means. 

Cathy: I think it’s I didn’t become this way because I joined something and then was like caught. And then, yes, I was this, 

Todd: I am this, and then 

Cathy: found that group. Yes, I am this, therefore I’m in Van Halen. Like, this is where 

Todd: I am, this is how I got there because this is who I am. Correct. And 

Cathy: I just, why I liked it so much in the show, and you know, and again, I like it in life is because Richie uses it twice. 

Cathy: By the way, he, and the second time he does it, he kind of half asses it. Yes. Cause he realize it’s going nowhere. He’s like, people aren’t, don’t care. 

Todd: So I wonder how that relates to, My life and my experiences are you, that’s why I wanna bring it up in your experiences. Like I haven’t had any time to think about it.

Todd: Do you have any connections to that? Yeah, I 

Cathy: do. I would say the things we talk about on this show, I don’t talk about these things because I do Zen parenting. I am, I do Zen parenting because I’m like this. Yes. So like, I didn’t say, Hey, I’m gonna do a podcast and talk about, you know, mindfulness and connection and compassion.

Cathy: Because I wanna be part of this team. It’s what I’d be talking about. Todd and I would be having this discussion in the kitchen. Yes. We just went on a walk and I talked straight for 20 minutes at Todd. You know, about these things. And so this is my Van Halen. You 

Todd: know, so it’s not, we’re not putting on our Zen parenting hat No.

Todd: When we get on the podcast. No. All we’re doing is having these same conversations. In front of microphones. Correct. But we would have menus. That helps. That’s good. 

Cathy: I’m not like, and I would say you with like sports or wanting to play a game, you’re not trying to like join some team or demonstrate to people that you’re a good athlete.

Cathy: You just want to play. And therefore you’re bringing up 

Todd: a game. You know, it’s, I think another way of phrasing this quote is it inside of you or is it outside 

Cathy: of you? I’m not like this because I’m in Van Halen. I didn’t join this and then become this or try to be this. I’m in Van Halen because I’m like this.

Cathy: Like, so let’s talk about the doors. You were talking about that example at the Doors, Jim. So they all went to this party and then Robbie’s like, dude, this isn’t our scene. And Jim’s like, this is my scene. Like this is, I’m in Van Halen. Because I’m like this. I’m at this party.

Cathy: Because I’m these people, I 

Todd: wonder, and this might be a tangent, but like imposter syndrome comes up because I’ve been a coach for guys for, I don’t know, five, seven years. I don’t even know. And there’s still a part of me that’s like, there’s effort that is required for me to feel like I’m valuable to the guys that are in front of me. As a matter of fact, I actually think I’m the best coach when I’ve had a few different sessions and my last session is at the end of the day and I’m kind of tired and I feel less of a need to convince the guy how smart I am. I feel less of a need to convince the guy that I have all the answers and instead it, and I’m a better, I think I’m a better coach when I am trying, when I’m not trying as hard.

Todd: And, but somebody would be like, why don’t you just do that all the time? Maybe it’s anxiety, maybe it’s imposter syndrome. I maybe, I feel like I I don’t feel like I am this inside, so I gotta show it to this guy outside. And I think I will get to the point to where I’m like, yep, this is just a part of me.

Todd: But there are times when I’m like, I don’t really know how best to help this guy in this moment. Well, and 

Cathy: I don’t think that ever goes away. Like, I think that there is this combination of skills you need when you’re supporting people or teaching or podcasting or you know, writing where you have to incorporate an intellectual ability with a more vulnerable Empty cup.

Cathy: Curious learner ability. Because if you bring too much I would say starting out you brought a lot of intellectual where you are, like, look at these what would you call them? Frameworks. Frameworks that I know. And I’m gonna, everything you say back to me, like it’s one of the reasons that, like Adam Grant, I love his podcast, I love his books.

Cathy: But anytime I hear him on a podcast, someone will say something and he’ll always bring up this research to support what he’s saying. And while there’s something really lovely to that, I feel like he can’t let go. Like enough 

Todd: with the research. Tell me what you think. Like, 

Cathy: let’s, well what do you think about this?

Cathy: Rather than what the research has dictated? Because if you’re too closely tied to the research, then there’s nothing. And he wants to be curious cuz he’ll say things like, what do you wanna teach me? What do you think I should learn? Like, but he’s so aware that he’s tight. Like it’s, and again, you kinda have to listen to his podcast to know what I’m talking about, but I think with you, when you were first coaching, you wanted to demonstrate you belonged here. 

Todd: My expertise that I was part of it and I am better now than I was five years ago. And my gosh, I hope I’m a better coach five years from now than I am today. Sure, of course. That’s the whole idea of it. 

Cathy: Well, and I think one of the great parts of being a coach or a teacher, a podcaster, is realizing that not everyone wants what you have to give.

Cathy: Sure. Like there, there is a certain, your personality plus your intellect, your history, your background, your belief systems create a type of coach that works for a certain type of person and not, it’s not going to be a hundred percent for everybody. 

Todd: Well, I’m getting much better at firing my clients. 

Todd: I don’t think I’m your best. I don’t. Right. You know, cuz they want something and what I feel like I have to offer are two very different things. 

Cathy: Right. And so, and it is selfish to hold on. Right. Because you just want the money or the client. And it’s better to be like, I care about you. That’s why, you know, we talk about a lot about having our loves in order.

Cathy: And if our top [00:40:00] love, and again, this is a David Brooks thing it was in his book and it’s also, he actually got it from some other guy. I’ve talked about this a lot, but I use it because if your loves are in order where number one is money, you may hold onto every client you have because your number one interest is money.

Cathy: Right. But if your number one thing is compassion or love or self-trust or you know, integrity, then you will have. Money may be three. Number three. But you will be able to let people go. 

Todd: Well, another thing I say to these guys all the time is like, the first intake session which I only take 30 minutes with, is that like, dude, before you go with me, if you like me, go talk to two other coaches.

Todd: They should. Just to see what it’s like. They should, and that’s what I would wanna hear if I was somebody looking for coaching, is the freedom to, cuz if I come with the attitude like I’m your coach, right? I know everything. I’m a good fit. I’m like, I think I might be a good fit, but I won’t know until we start dancing together and see what happens.

Cathy: Coaching, coaching is a relationship. So is therapy. So to say to someone, I am your best fit, that’s very one-sided. Right. And the challenge right now in the, in what’s going on in the world is because we have limited therapists for the amount of support that people need. Some people are just like, I need to find a therapist and I need to get started.

Cathy: And I get that like, but really you’re trying to develop a relationship and if somebody’s beliefs are the way that they interact or that they’re late all the time, or there’s something that’s really throwing you off, it may not be a great fit. So these are, you know, these are important to at least keep in mind.

Cathy: But anyway, that is the first quote, Todd and I didn’t know we’d go so deep into it, but I just love that Richie says it. 

Todd: Imagine that. Let’s do a drum roll for this next one. 

Cathy: Okay. I thought you’d play Van Halen. 

Todd: That’d be good. What’s number two? 

Cathy: So number two, I would say, I’m trying to decide which one I like better.

Cathy: How about this one? And we’ll just keep this simple. There is an episode, it’s actually one of my favorites number four, where it’s a very calm episode. It’s a very introspective one that I found to be, that I felt so good after watching it. It’s just the way I feel after watching the show. And there’s a comment that’s made where this guy is trying to get better at something and he use, he says, the thing I’ve learned in life is that it’s never about being, he actually says I’ve learned to be better and not perfect.

Cathy: That’s the quote. He says, I’ve learned to be better and not perfect. And I find that to be, I think most people would make the sound you just made. Like the way he said it. A lot of us say, you know, let me just have a better day, but it’s not a perfect day, but I’m learning to be better and not perfect.

Cathy: And I look at that in that. You don’t have to decide your life is good, bad, right or wrong, or that you’re, there’s every day. Are you attempting in your conversations with yourself, in your conversations with other people, that you’re noticing things that, when I say better, it doesn’t mean getting a better grade or it doesn’t mean having more friends, or it’s just like, I’m gonna do this in a way that I am working toward what feels better, or I’m gonna say something that’s more honest.

Cathy: I’m gonna try something that feels inspired. I’m gonna, I’m gonna do better. But it may not look to the outside. It’s not about doing something where other people, you are getting external validation. It’s just, I’m even better. Might be like, for me, one of my betters has been, okay, well I’ll use an example my daughter gave me, cuz it’s very similar to mine.

Cathy: She said she had a headache the other day and she kept forcing herself to do things and do things with that headache. I can relate. And then the next, like few hours later, her headache was gone and it was so easy to do those things. So what she learned from that is her better is when I have a headache, I’m gonna relax.

Cathy: I’m gonna do that better for myself. I’m not going to beat myself over the head with the fact I should feel better and get things done. And I could really relate to that one cuz I do that too. 

Todd: Well for me I kind of took a different path. The whole idea of perfect is one that I think our society elevates.

Todd: You know, you gotta win the Super Bowl or you gotta get first place in the science fair or whatever. It’s, and the body perfection. Or body perfection. Doesn’t matter. You gotta get straight A’s, like And it’s very, an uncomfortable place to reside from is the striving for perfection. And what your quote is, I’ve learned to be better, not perfect. It’s like, I don’t know, it just kinda lets me off the hook in a good way. Now you could say, well, tiger Woods wanted to be the best golfer in the world, and Tom Brady wanted to be the best quarterback of all time. And were they, well, I Tiger probably wasn’t as that probably still goes to Jack Nicholas.

Todd: Statistically speaking, a lot of people can say Tom Brady is the best quarterback back of all time. But plenty of people would argue for other quarterbacks. But I also. 

Cathy: Can I stop you in a minute though? Look at what’s going on in their lives. Like, do 

Todd: we, they, right. Well, what? Say? Well, cost. Cost. Oh.

Todd: Please keep going at 

Cathy: cost. Thank you. I’m sorry. At what cost. Exactly. 

Todd: You know, plenty of wonderful people get divorced, but Tom is in the middle actually. He’s done with his divorce. That was really quick. Tigers had a lot of personal issues, a lot of problems. So yeah, the idea of perfection or I always think of like fathers really trying to get their sons to be so good at something.

Todd: And that son would just wanna please their dad in a way to make sure that’s the only way that they feel like they can receive love. It’s a really inhibiting way of living a life. So for me, when I heard that quote, it’s like, and I thought of, for some reason, the book that Dan Harris wrote called 10% Happier.

Todd: Like he, he did write a book called a hundred percent Happier. He called a book 10% Happier. So how can we just be a little bit. More aware, a little more curious, a little more conscious, a little more intentional, whatever it is, instead of having to arrive at this you know, mecca of whatever it is that you’re searching for. 

Cathy: And stretching the word better.

Cathy: Whereas I’m gonna get, when a day doesn’t go the way I planned, I’m gonna get better at handling that. You know what I mean? Right. So you can stretch this word where it doesn’t mean you’re on this linear, or it’s not even linear, that you’re on this upward trajectory where you’re getting better better, better is about, I’m gonna handle this better.

Cathy: I’m gonna be more curious, I’m gonna get better at being curious. I’m gonna allow myself to rest if I don’t feel good. Better is very malleable. You get to kind of decide how you use the word and Perfect doesn’t exist. And to your point, like I know people use. You know, they use Tiger Woods and Tom Brady and Michael Phelps and you know, Megan Rapino or you know, Abby Wabe or you know, this perfection of like being an athlete.

Cathy: But they will tell you straight up or at least demonstrate through some of their experiences. It’s been a rough road. The life enjoyment has been challenged. And that is, so basically, let’s go back to having your loves in order. If your top love is, I need to be the best better than everybody else, compete and always win there, you’re gonna, a lot of the other things are gonna fall away. Because you’re gonna lose a lot of relationships. You’re gonna have a lot of self-doubt. You’re gonna have a lot of self you’re gonna have a lot of, there’s pain in that. And I feel like there’s a place that’s just such a societal, cultural thing where we think that’s where happiness is.

Cathy: And anybody that’s been there will tell you, well, you know, like the studies of, you know, the people who the depression rates, as soon as athletes in the Olympics get a medal, as soon as they get off that podium, their likelihood of a depression skyrockets. And they have to go through this whole thing of who am I and what do I do now?

Cathy: Right. And it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be interested in that if you’re, if that is who you are, it’s just you have to have a more holistic, well-rounded look at what makes a life. And it’s not just one thing. Right. And as soon as you win, you know, actors who get the job they’ve always wanted, they get the payout, they get the notoriety, they get on the cover of a magazine, they’re like it’s not in there.

Cathy: I’m not feeling any better than I thought I would. I have a 

Todd: pop culturing reference to play, and it’s from Breakfast Club. Okay. Andrew, the wrestler? Yes. Played by Emilio Estevez. This is when they’re doing the little confessional in the circle. Yeah, that part. Okay, here we go. No way.

Todd: It’s all because of me. My, oh man.

Todd: You know, it’s 

Cathy: like this, it’s like this mindless machine that I can’t even relate to anymore. Andrew, you’ve got to be number one. I won’t tolerate any losers in this family. Your intensity is for shit. Win, win, win. You son. 

Todd: There you go. 

Cathy: Well, and you know what, you were just talking about that experience, like father, son, daughter, son.

Cathy: It’s not daughter, son, mother, son, you know, mother, daughter, whatever. Any relationship in the family, it can be a cycle. Where, you know, a kid will be like, well, I wanna get really good at this. And then the parent is like, well, I’m gonna help you and we’re gonna do all these things. And then the kid is like, well, I gotta do these things cuz the parent is helping me.

Cathy: And the parent is like, well I gotta do these things cuz the kid. And it’s like, sometimes we don’t take a step back and say, are we on the right track here together? Right. Do you want this? Because if you want it, I will support you. But if it’s not what you want, that’s okay too. You know, like, I’m sure that there were plenty of wrestling meets where Andrew was just as intense as his dad.

Cathy: So his dad’s like, see I’m doing what he wants. But in the, in his room at night, he was miserable. And so it’s like the conversations are really important. 

Todd: Isn’t there a quote, like, sometimes your ladder is leaning up against the wrong wall. For sure. I don’t know. But anyways, neither do

Cathy: okay, so let’s do down last one. Okay. So this is a little longer and it’s actually from the same episode that I was just talking about. Cause I loved this, these subtle things that they were saying. This is in episode four. I think at a certain age it’s less about skill and it’s more about being open to the world, to yourself and to other people.

Cathy: Most of the incredible things I’ve eaten cuz he’s a chef, haven’t been because of the, that the skill level is really high. It’s because it’s been really inspired and you know, again, they’re chefs. We could call each other chef. Thanks Chef. That’s Chef. That’s right. Chef. Chef. And so, but take anything and put it in there.

Cathy: It’s not the skill level. It’s that the person has seen things, done things, talked to people. They have a well-rounded look at the world. They’re holistic. What do I mean by holistic? Exactly what I was saying about the person who’s like only doing their sport and that’s the only thing they do. And they don’t think about anything else.

Cathy: They’re not thinking about relationships, they’re not thinking about sleep patterns. They’re not thinking about pop culture. They’re solely focused and they’re not experiencing a wide variety of things. And it’s also that it’s not about that they got the best at something. It’s that it came from, it’s that quote Martha the dancer about what comes through you is a unique. A unique offering that can only come through you. 

Todd: Well, that’s what’s so interesting. I was actually gonna talk about singing and dancing in that you can hit all the notes. Or hit all the steps. But if it is not inspired from somewhere within you, then it’s gonna sound different. Right.

Todd: So if we’re just trying to replicate what our teacher teaches us Yes. Of how to do a dance or how to do, how to sing a song and they’re not in it, then it’s not going to land as well. And we could probably say that about whatever our own vocations are, whether it’s podcasting or writing a book or selling to a customer, a pile of widgets.

Todd: If you’re just saying all the points, but not believing in it. It’s just not gonna land as 

Cathy: well. Or you’re, you know, like they’re, you’re replicating someone else’s information or, that’s my whole point with Adam Grant. Sorry, an Adam. I’m sure you’ll never listen to this, but I’m not it’s, I don’t care what all the research says.

Cathy: Thank you. And I know you’re an organizational psychologist and I’m grateful to have the resource to maybe back this up, but I wanna know what you think and what your experience has led you 

Todd: to. What’s that? Who’s that poet? Frank always would do it at Men Living Stuff. And Annie’s a friend of hers.

Todd: There’s a poem that we all, Annie Burnside Right. Somehow knows this woman that we would always quote at Men [00:53:20] Living, oh, sarc. No, not sir. God. It’s gonna drive me nuts now. Are you sure it’s not hers? No. She’s got like some like Native 

Cathy: American name. S a r k, right? Oh no. I know who you’re talking about.

Cathy: She actually went offline. Yeah, 

Todd: she left. She has a poem talking about that exact, like, don’t tell me all the things you’ve learned. Tell me about who you are. I wanna read quotes from that, but I don’t remember. Yes. 

Cathy: Oh, I remember. I can see her face. I remember she was having a lot of problems with her.

Cathy: Eyesight or hearing or something and she went offline. But anyway, I wanna read the Martha Graham quote. Okay. There is a vitality, a life force and energy, a quick a quickening that is translated through you into action. And because there is only one of you in all time, this expression is unique and if you block it, it will never exist through any other medium and will be lost.

Cathy: So it’s so ironic that we find comfort as parents in our children following a pattern of other people. Because we are, understandably, there is some pattern that has to be set up, structure, you know, again, not awful, but we also have to allow for that unique spirit to come through and not say, wait a second, get back in your box.

Cathy: Do things like your siblings, do things like other people. We have to say, okay, this is interesting. What is your spirit? What are the things that light you up? And the, and then what he’s saying, will, Poulter is saying in this quote, cuz it’s his quote in the show, is he’s saying, I have found you know, being a chef, that it’s not about the person who does the best, did the thing perfectly the way that you’re supposed to.

Cathy: It’s about, there was something about it that was inspired and came through of that person. You know, there was something interesting about it or different or, and that’s what we like about dance or singing or writing or podcasting or being with someone, like when I think about people I like to be with, it’s because they bring something that’s different.

Cathy: You know, they’re, I think about my friends, I’m like, this person, you know, makes me laugh. Or this person’s so good at saying what they feel, or This person has really funny quips that they say and they’re not being like this structured person. They’re being themselves. Yes. That’s what I like. 

Todd: I, I found the poem.

Todd: Oh, good. Who is it? What’s her name? Oriah. 

Cathy: Oriah. Mountain 

Todd: Dreamer. Mountain Dreamer. That’s it. And maybe we’ll close the show. I found a YouTube clip of somebody reading it. It’s four minutes long, so I don’t know if we wanna do that here, but I’ll just read you like the first few lines to give you a taste.

Todd: And then maybe I’ll just play the quote at the end. And it’s, the name of the poem is called The Invitation. It doesn’t interest me what you do for a living. I wanna know what you ache for and if you dream to dream of meeting your heart’s longing. It doesn’t interest me how old you are. I wanna know if you will risk looking like a fool for love, for your dream, for the adventure of being alive.

Todd: It doesn’t interest me what planets are squaring your moon. I want you to, I want to know if you have touched the center of your own sorrow, if you have been open by life’s betrayals or become shriveled and closed from fear of further pain. So there’s just the first few lines. 

Cathy: And, you know, it’s like, you know, I read.

Cathy: Self-help books all the time. Nonfiction all the time. I’ve been doing it my whole life. And so I can read a book and I can tell if that person has experienced it. And if someone’s just telling me a bunch of, and I do this to Todd on the show, you guys hear me, Todd say and take a breath.

Cathy: And I’ll be like, well, tell us a time you did it. Because giving direction about something like you should do these three things, it doesn’t mean anything. Unless it’s okay to say, here’s the three things and here’s how the different ways it can look. Because of my experience, I don’t like directions that are just directions. Directions. There has to be some aliveness in it. 

Todd: It has to come from experience. 

Cathy: And I love, last time I did that to you on the show, you were talking about taking a breath and then the story you told was so much better than just take a breath. It was like, well, I can’t even remember what it was, but I was like, that’s so interesting.

Cathy: Do you remember? 

Todd: I think, I think it had to do with my dad, like my dad. Yes. That was it. Father, he showed up father’s three hours early on Father’s Day. 

Cathy: So, and you and I watched you and I didn’t even realize what was going on. We were sitting on the front porch and you said, I took a breath. I realized I was annoyed, but I wanted to have a good Father’s Day with him.

Cathy: And so I took like, you have a real experience rather than just dictating to other people. Now everybody, as we close here, do you see how that connects to parenting? When you dictate to your kids what they should do and how they should do it, and that they should do yoga and meditation and take this class and not be emotional and not be dramatic and get straight ass, are you telling them or are you in life?

Cathy: Demonstrating the ebbs and flows right. And then relating to them from that way, rather than from a strict guideline that it’s impossible for anyone to follow because life is not linear, no doubt. So we have to roll with them. So that’s I think that’s where we’ll be done. 

Todd: Okay. So I am going to close this with a video, a YouTube clip so you can hear the entire poem just for fun. I do wanna, I’m reading it. I don’t know. 

Cathy: Okay. Have you listened to it? No, I just wanna make sure that it’s enjoyable. 

Todd: Well, if it’s not, they’re gonna turn it off. That’s fine. I do wanna remind everybody of our three things. Okay. Three things like, subscribe, comment on our new YouTube channel.

Todd: Team Zen app on your phone. So, and all things Team Zen. And then what was the third thing? Subscribe to Zen Parenting Moment. The moment. And then I wanna say thank you to Jeremy Craft. He’s a baldheaded beauty painting and remodeling throughout Chicagoland area. 63 9 56, 1800.

Todd: If there’s any guys out there that wanna conne connect deeply and live fully, go to men And then I also coach guys todd adam and good old sweetie book Zen Parenting. Parenting Ourselves and Our Children in An Unpredictable World. 


Cathy: if you’re on Good Reads, I hate to give you another thing to do cause we said only three, but like it on Good Reads, follow it.

Cathy: I’m trying to have a, because it’s been out for a year now, you have to kind of find new creative ways to, you know, keep talking about it. And I think Good reads might be my new path. There you go. 

Todd: So go there. That, so in lieu of the closing music, I’m just gonna go ahead and press play on the Invitation by Oriah Mountain Dreamer.

Todd: And hopefully you like it. Keep tracking everybody. Take four. Oh, let’s try that again. It

Todd: doesn’t interest me 

Cathy: what you do for a living. I want to know what you ache for, and if you dare to dream of meeting your heart’s longing.

Cathy: It doesn’t interest me how old you are. I want to know if you will risk looking like a fool for love, for your dream, for the adventure of 

Todd: being 

Cathy: alive. It doesn’t interest me. What planets are squaring your moon. I want to know if you have touched the center of your own sorrow. If you have been opened by life’s betrayals.

Cathy: Or have become shriveled enclosed from fear of further pain. I want to know if you can sit with pain mine or your own without moving to hide it or fade it or fix it. I

Cathy: want to know if you can be with Joy 

Todd: mine or your own, 

Cathy: if you can dance with wildness and let the ecstasy fill you to the tips of your fingers and toes without cautioning us to be careful. Be realistic. Remember the limitations of being human.

Cathy: It doesn’t interest me if the story you’re telling me is true. I want to know if you can disappoint another to be true to yourself. If you can bear the accusation of betrayal and not betray your own soul. If you can be faithless and therefore trustworthy,

Cathy: I want to know if you can see beauty even when it’s not pretty every day, and if you can source your own life from its presence. I want to know if you can live with failure, yours and mine, and still stand at the edge of the lake and shout to the silver of the full moon. Yes. Yes. It doesn’t interest me to know where you live or how much money you have.

Cathy: I want to know if you can get up after the night of grief and despair, weary and bruise to the bone, and do what needs to be done to feed the children. It doesn’t interest me who you know or how you came to be here. I want to know if you will stand in the center of the fire with me and not shrink back.

Cathy: It doesn’t interest me where or what or with whom you have studied. I want to know what sustains you from the inside when all else falls away. I

Cathy: want to know if you can be alone with yourself and if you truly like the company you keep in the empty moments.